outlaw

[fossil lintel]

You're probably supercharging it

[jagged plover]

zac u should have been here for the guy who didnt understand why people dont like ks' targeting

would have blown your brains out

[fossil lintel]

It scales the duration with CP spent

[vivid vessel]

eh

zeross one time

was arguing that ks wasnt rng targetting

but just an aoe spell

[jagged plover]

some generational stuff here

oh zeross aalt account then

[vivid vessel]

[fossil lintel]

I prefer the old KS, at least pressing it made me feel something (despair and fear mostly)

[cinder abyss]

Haha yeah... where am i gonna land when its done

[jagged plover]

1/5 is the same as 4/5

if you really think about it

[fossil lintel]

Who will be waiting for me when I land?

And it's always a swirly

[cinder abyss]

Yeah those moments fighting a boss thats on the edge on a platform and your floating in midair... i miss it sometimes

[jovial dome]

Man I didn’t know the glowy mobs were because of a tank route feature. I thought Blizz was just doing some weird shit

[fossil lintel]

Do we know if the bonus rolls will be available next week? I'm going to clear out PoS with those

[midnight ridge]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/316923682607857685/1345155556586946560/killin_pee.gif

[keen belfry]

pistol shot is going to do so much dmg on tuesdya

any heavy shitter builds?

[vivid vessel]

yes

[blissful idol]

isnt it worth to use them in mythic raid only? or how do they work?

[near rock]

cost 2 voidcores to roll on a raid boss, 1 voidcore to roll on an m+ dungeon

[fossil lintel]

using it on m+ gives great vault rewards from that dungeon

[blissful idol]

oh

nice

[fossil lintel]

m+ costs 1, raid costs 2

[blissful idol]

ah wait u use and they are on great vault

[fossil lintel]

so you can get 2 myth track items from m+ or 1 from raid

no, you use it and you get an item

[keen belfry]

idk where imma use mine

[fossil lintel]

separate from great vault

[keen belfry]

probs chimamreus

[placid ocean]

Tbf that's a trash dungeon

[blissful idol]

and it's mythic track?

[brave lagoon]

Can't wait for them to be 2 cloaks with bad stats

[fossil lintel]

i'm grabbing all 7 items from pos most likely

cause i'm not raiding

and everything from that dungeon is good

[brave lagoon]

7wrists for you

[fossil lintel]

you can't get repeats from the token

[brave lagoon]

Oh wait it's not rng

Yeah mb

[fossil lintel]

so 7 tokens, 7 unique items from the dungeon, you can clear it in 3.5 weeks

[upper hawk]

3 weeks and 1 hour?

[frail veldt]

Thats what we drop for 2nd ace point

And deadly pursuit is not in the same gate as summarily

@keen belfry is it really no SD to get prep next patch

At least we can dip in and out of the cloud for positioning

The cloud buff lasts 10s right so as long as we're in it at the start then touch it again at the end to refresh were fine right?

[eternal hound]

Guys

You ever had a key bricked because your internet just said lmao no halfway through

[keen belfry]

thats kinda like the only non required talent competing ye

[frail veldt]

Awful

[eternal hound]

God

[frail veldt]

I bet we need more energy

[eternal hound]

Needing *ANOTHER DAMN KEYBIND is so nice (no I don't raid

[keen belfry]

our tree is weird in that we have some talents that dont work/exist (ho) then the rest are basicalyl required

is that normal

[frail veldt]

Or haste rather

[eternal hound]

yes and no

across most classes I play that sounds about right

[cinder relic]

It's fairly normal

[placid ocean]

You can't expect a small indie company like blizzard to have well designed talent trees

[unique fulcrum]

i mean its better than what we had in legion

and shadowlands

[fossil lintel]

Kind of weird you forgot bfa

bfa azerite armor also sucked big time

[unique fulcrum]

i meant

bfa

brainfart

bfa had the worst systems ever combined

[jagged plover]

i kinda liked bfa but i wasnt playing seriously so i imagine it was aids if you were trying to push properly

[keen belfry]

i didnt look at trees as much in tww but this is trickster tree we will run in aoe

i see one point u can move and thats it

[fossil lintel]

stamina into the downtime protection one?

[keen belfry]

2 then, that and sleight vs acro

[fossil lintel]

ah you dropped acro

[keen belfry]

no dispatcher just feels wrong to me

thats the only not required talent point down there so u drop it for ks basically

[fossil lintel]

we could drop the AR one (and didn't play it before the buff), it's just better than anything else

[keen belfry]

ar talent quite good

[fossil lintel]

yeah but not strictly required

[keen belfry]

id guess with fart cloud it is

i wanna see a sim of fart cloud

are we bursty in AR now

like real peaks

[fossil lintel]

we already have actual peaks with AR, no?

it just doesn't show when you average thousands of pulls on the sim because our AR timings are basically random

[keen belfry]

yes kinda ish

but im talking like real peaks

[fossil lintel]

yes we'll fart our way into sub rogue's damage profile

[vivid vessel]

it last 20s

every 30s

cuh

[keen belfry]

are those 10-20s between ars gonna be noticeable

i bet they r

[fossil lintel]

actually is fartcloud not good for sub as well?

[keen belfry]

its good but less good just cuz we get like 3x their fart clouds

but it helps them be an actual burst spec agian

[quaint wharf]

so do u have to perma be in the fart cloud

or can u weave in and out

[keen belfry]

no u just need to weave in near it ending to get max uptime

[fossil lintel]

oh it's a 5% buff for sub as well

They could bring back gsw now 🤔

[wild jackal]

do i use KIR right when i get double trouble or do i wait till its almost up to use KIR?

[keen belfry]

simple asnwer, right away. but theres a bit more to KIR than extennding 2 buff when u see it

[fossil lintel]

Imagine a GSW pistolshot with 150% crit multiplier, variance would go super hard

[keen belfry]

ps is going to blast on tuesday

[fossil lintel]

exactly

[wild jackal]

@keen belfry how so? im reading the pinned stuff and im a little confused

[errant fractal]

Think it's the first option cos playing it causes me urinal tract issues

[mystic berry]

I fear our energy state in trickster

[fossil lintel]

3 stacks of :talents_fazed: Fazed means targets take 24% extra damage instead of 8%, and also take +150% crit damage from builders instead of +50%.
emphais mine

[mystic berry]

I already suffer like a mf if I die

it will only be worse

[keen belfry]

if you know you can have a loaded dice roll before your stage 2 expires you want to wait until after that roll

[wild jackal]

ah!

[fossil lintel]

Oh you meant the previous message

[keen belfry]

which happens all the time, esp with prep/prekey stuff, naturally

but im pretty sure we are only going to be kir 3+ on tuesday

[fossil lintel]

yeah you learn to predict if you need to kir the 2 stack or not

[fossil lintel]

Why? you'll end up having to natty roll a lot more 🤔

[frail veldt]

But we lose sleight

I was thinking we might shift back

And we have less adr now

So less LD fishing rolls

[keen belfry]

we run sleight over acro

its -0.3% dps for better variance and viubes

[fossil lintel]

acro to sleight is only -0.3%?

[river wing]

yeah

I lost like

400 dps in sims

[frail veldt]

you can run it over acro haha

im on the fence

[river wing]

literally 101.1k with sleight vs 101.5k with acro

[frail veldt]

but yeah less variance is good

so prob worth

[fossil lintel]

ah acros is movement speed and auto DAMAGE, i thought it gave auto speed as well

[vagrant saddle]

cant we take faze ar to fatebound and leave trickster in the dust?

[frail veldt]

though I thought right now @keen belfry the rule still is very much depending on wether your next roll is going to be LD or not

so with trickster having longer adr cd we might KiR a 2 roll sometimes still

[timid idol]

holy br ks and prep

kinda crazy

[fossil lintel]

i know how to fix 80% of the issues with trickster: move interactions from ks to br

[frail veldt]

theres a lot of ways to fix it haha

make KS one global

the spec is just poorly taken care of right now

[timid idol]

right now?

[fossil lintel]

Right now doesn't exclude the past 5 years

[timid idol]

no its not, but we balance it out by also having the only mastery in the game that has never been not 4th in prio since it's creation

[keen belfry]

in aoe rn u can ignore this rule

[timid idol]

are these buff estimates in pins for both aoe and st?

cuz thats kinda crazy

i missed perma tricks too

[fossil lintel]

This is a 5-6% buff for sub and they get it every 90s only

So yeah, not surprised it's huge for us

[timid idol]

daaamnn

[frail veldt]

yeah sub def got a huge buff with this

[timid idol]

finally gonna do st

[frail veldt]

idk why that was a reply

[keen belfry]

banger reply

[frail veldt]

lol

[timid idol]

what does cloud trigger on

[frail veldt]

wait wdym

[timid idol]

for sub and sin

[frail veldt]

I thought subs trigger is sec tech

isnt that insanely strong

[timid idol]

that would be weird

[fossil lintel]

Isn't it SB?

[frail veldt]

cuz this triggers on sec tech

[timid idol]

i expect it to be shadow blades

oh

that is even more op then lole

[fossil lintel]

Otherwise it would be KS for us

[timid idol]

wait

[fossil lintel]

It's shadow blades the trigger

[timid idol]

arent we talking about cloud?

[frail veldt]

ah yeah its blades

sucks for them

[fossil lintel]

Yeah

[timid idol]

what is it for sin

[frail veldt]

wat

[fossil lintel]

Hopes and dreams

[frail veldt]

only 2 specs per hero tree

[timid idol]

sin has to play deathstalker and fatebound?

💀

my condolences

[fossil lintel]

At least they can play fatebound?

I wish I could play fatebound

[timid idol]

i completely forgot its 2 trees per spec honestly i always only play a single spec in every class i play

i liked playing trickster in s3 tww

but maybe that was bcs underhanded was the most fun gameplay ever

[twilit spruce]

is there any "causese weakaura" style addon for dungeons?

with alerts and shit

[vivid vessel]

No

There is no alerts for trash mobs

Because blizzard believe in keys trash is free and bosses need timers

[sullen glen]

regarding the changes, our gameplay will be lot more boring or just seems like it ? (never played it)

[fossil lintel]

https://tenor.com/view/trash-dumpster-diving-groceries-gif-5332378359729835046

[frail veldt]

our builder rules are simpler yeah

it might be more "exciting"

trying to see ground effects

through smoke bomb 🙂

[sullen glen]

haha dammn

[timid idol]

is it like the pvp thing

where you cant target inside or outside

is that the animation

cuz if it is that sucks balls

[frail veldt]

yes

its the exact same animation

[timid idol]

thats very bad then

holy shit

[frail veldt]

yes 🙂

[sullen glen]

very bad damn

will they make it slightly bigger or smth so we can move or whatever it is

[fossil lintel]

Hopefully they make it so that everyone sees it so that people playing classes they actually care about complain, only way it gets changed

[frail veldt]

our spec is punching itself in the face

[timid idol]

why do pins mention dipping in and out of it, don't you have to just stay in it until the duration is over?

or am i not getting something

[fossil lintel]

Having to move is a thing

[timid idol]

ig

but surely the cloud is big enough

[frail veldt]

well from what it reads

the buff we get

from the cloud

you just have ot touch it

then you can leave the cloud

it has a 10s linger

[sullen glen]

hope the edged classes complain about visibility 🙂

[frail veldt]

I havent tested this but thats what it says

[timid idol]

trolling other melees visibility

[frail veldt]

nah its nerfed for your allies

they only hate the rogue players

[fossil lintel]

Yeah but then you want to refresh right before the smell fades to guarantee the full 20s

[timid idol]

well damn what do i do now

do i just dump my dh and come back home

[frail veldt]

exactly

[sullen glen]

if its same with pvp as u say its no joke like u wont see shit much

[frail veldt]

so you just have ot touch it once at the beginning

then once at the end

[timid idol]

cant even troll

[sullen glen]

oh that makes it little bit better u can hook in n out

[frail veldt]

looks like that

[fossil lintel]

Does this mean we're farting every 40 sec now? I think they are designing the spec around us way too much

[frail veldt]

ye

[timid idol]

disgusting

[frail veldt]

this is almost as bad as old KS

imo

[timid idol]

ask your premade in vc to tell you if you're sitting on swirly

[fossil lintel]

I can't wait to use that on those fire elementals at the end of sky reach when you're standing on the glass floor

It's going to kill so many people

[sullen glen]

so now apm drops i guess if we need to full stack for finisher ?

and energy will be starvy

[fossil lintel]

We go to 6 not 7

[frail veldt]

only you

other people dont see it

[fossil lintel]

Damn man

[frail veldt]

the visual is nerfed

I know

whats so sad about that

[fossil lintel]

0 chance it ever gets fixed then

[frail veldt]

is they know the issue

theyre aware of it

and they fixed it

for everyone but the rogue

the dev genuinely hates this class

theres no doubt in my mind

[sullen glen]

thanks bliz 👍

[timid idol]

they prob do

considering they dont give a shit about any of the 3 specs

¯_(ツ)_/¯

its ok guys

tank spec in tlt

we get outa the dps trenches

[sullen glen]

just geared my rogue in 2 days cause it was the most fun spec till now 🙂

damn good luck i guess

[timid idol]

i mained otl every szn except for 2

[keen belfry]

im excited for next week, but im quite sure ill find myself in low target cleave wanting to punch my monitor even more n

[timid idol]

i dropped it as soon as m+ started this one

it was THAT bad

especially in raid

i wouldnt have minded if it was weak overall but ST in raid was way too bad

especially pre 25 haste

[frail veldt]

like that one boss

the 2 target cleave one

forget the dungeon

is trickster st worse than fatebound

cuz my st already feels pretty shit

[snow vessel]

Caverns

?

Tbf there’s a few 2t bosses in dungeons this tier

[frail veldt]

not maisara

[keen belfry]

if ur st feels like shit ur playing wrong outlaw ST blasts in keys

[keen belfry]

not on tuesday

[frail veldt]

I dont think im playing wrong lol im hitting my sim

my sim is just shit

its like 70k

[keen belfry]

the nur not geared

[snow vessel]

Ye

[frail veldt]

im 267

[keen belfry]

no one beats me on bosses

legit

ST bosses*

[frail veldt]

im also not in a physical comp

so maybe that doesnt help

[keen belfry]

u can do it without

[frail veldt]

I just cant beat demo

he does have more gear though

im playing with demo and marks

marks I compete with sometimes

depending on if boss has a damage amp or something

or some low target phase

demo always beats me

not even close

but maybe gear diff

[keen belfry]

demo might beat u yes that spec is crazy

but ur 267

[frail veldt]

I mean is 267 that low?

[keen belfry]

compare dto ppl that are higher geared than u yes

im 280

[frail veldt]

yeah thats like 15% more damage right

[fossil lintel]

I only started gearing my rogue late last week and I'm 275

[keen belfry]

screenshot of recording vibes but these are r1 na players on fotm op spec not in melee comp losing in pure st boss dam, this spec is cracked in st in keys

thats its niche rn

[frail veldt]

the fuck???

[frail veldt]

oh 79k isnt that high

okay so maybe im doing fine

[keen belfry]

downtime boss

[frail veldt]

most fucking bosses are

awful melee season

[keen belfry]

you can legit do 100k dps st if the stars align

[fossil lintel]

I guess I did get the hero crest achieve on my priest which helps

[keen belfry]

ive done 103k on 2nd boss skyreach

[frail veldt]

thats my issue

I have no hero crests

I cant upgrade anything

I have one myth track piece

to spend crests on

[fossil lintel]

Craft?

[frail veldt]

I have 3 crafts

[fossil lintel]

You can have 4 this week

[frail veldt]

yeah im behind still on crests

im only at 270 seasonal myth crests

just havent farmed that many keys ig

[fossil lintel]

I'm really surprised you're that low if you're capped on hero crests though

[frail veldt]

im not capped

I have NO hero crests

[fossil lintel]

Did you upgrade 1/6 and 2/6 hero items?

[frail veldt]

cuz I dont get them

[fossil lintel]

Oh

[frail veldt]

from the content im doing

I need to hit myth cap to start getting the overflow

[fossil lintel]

Just overcap myth crests and you'll get them

[frail veldt]

yeah I need like 20 keys haha

[fossil lintel]

Ah

Well, if you want quick hero crests just wait until the good delve is up for us and farm it on 11 real fast

[frail veldt]

yeah thats the plan tbh

I did some delve last night but man its fucking boring

[fossil lintel]

Can probably get 10 crests every 5-7min

[coral wyvern]

this as our only change is kinda funny

[fossil lintel]

Not our only change

Check pins for the >10% buff

[placid ocean]

Trickster mega buff

[timid idol]

wait

next week is also 4th catalyst?

[frail veldt]

that was this week

p sure

[timid idol]

tf

[frail veldt]

well 3rd

[timid idol]

i have 3 on my rogue

[frail veldt]

but you shoul dhave achieve

somehow

its like 2k m+ score

1600 arena

or aotc

[timid idol]

is that account wide?

[frail veldt]

yes

[timid idol]

or character specific

wtf

[frail veldt]

wait

no

its not

sorry

[timid idol]

aite

then i just have to get 2k

[fossil lintel]

Character specific yeah

[frail veldt]

yeah

2k should be very very quick if you have homies

[fossil lintel]

Or do lfr and normal and hope to get a piece

[timid idol]

thought it was account wide

[frail veldt]

like just do every dungeon

[fossil lintel]

With how much tier is around not a lot of people rolling on those

[foggy cove]

Homieless queue

[coral wyvern]

oooh thats neat, i am reading it rn

[timid idol]

with homies even 3k is quick

[foggy cove]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/316923682607857685/1413242281515024545/image.gif

[coral wyvern]

i kinda love killing spree, thats cool

[timid idol]

[foggy cove]

Haven’t been able to get into a single +12 🥀

[frail veldt]

lfg as outlaw is pointless

[timid idol]

3.4 k gonna be a lil harder but with more and more ilvl shouldnt be too hard soon

[frail veldt]

unless youre listing your key

[foggy cove]

Declined for the last week

[frail veldt]

dont bother applying

[foggy cove]

Yeah

[frail veldt]

genuinely its a waste of time

just list your own key exclusively

and at least get to play the game

[timid idol]

can u not

join as sub

wait until pull timer on key

and start swapping

[frail veldt]

your chances of getting in as sub arent much higher

rogue brings nothing to an m+ group

[timid idol]

[fossil lintel]

We bring vibes though

And a primary color

[timid idol]

dude i realize now

how little yellow ive seen since i started playing dh

[placid ocean]

Hey, we bring rogue skips. And 3% dr. Which is ... something?

[timid idol]

i never ever see rogue in key and barely ever in raid

[fossil lintel]

And soon we will bring actual rogue player odor into keys

[frail veldt]

when you only have 5 slots you dotn bring 3% dr

we dont bring brez

or hero

or aoe cc

or group defensives

[placid ocean]

And you can just bring a mage for the skip

[timid idol]

we have aoe cc next week no?

[frail veldt]

or group dps raid buffs

[timid idol]

arent we getting blind back next week?

[frail veldt]

yeah we get it back

[timid idol]

op class!!!!

utility!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

meanwhile dk

still the best melee spec btw

[frail veldt]

dks ranged

[timid idol]

unholy's trillionth patch in a row as the most op melee spec

frost was better ONE PATCH

:D

[frail veldt]

I think rets better atm

cuz it has insane funnel

[fossil lintel]

Remember when dk was nerfed and they cried so hard their numbers on pre patch was shit that blizz reverted most of it?

[placid ocean]

Taking acrobatic strikes away from rogues while giving dks 25 yard range on their melee abilities was certainly a choice

[frail veldt]

oh nvm looking at top keys

I see a LOT of dk

[sullen nimbus]

Braindead take

Sorry

[fossil lintel]

You see, extra range had become widespread so it had to be removed from everyone equally, except if you wear plate

Hi cocoa

[frail veldt]

LOL yes

[fossil lintel]

Uhdk would be fine with the nerf still, would be down to mortal spec levels

[placid ocean]

True. The class whose damage evaporates when you lose uptime should have a hard time with maintaining uptime. Blizzard design is peak

[sullen nimbus]

Unholy would be the worst spec in the game by far if they left the 20% aura in with no other changes

[tropic zephyr]

XDddd

[frail veldt]

still better than outlaw

[tropic zephyr]

This is so cursed

[fossil lintel]

In raid, yes, in m+ not really

[sullen nimbus]

I don’t think unholy is 20% damage ahead of the worst spec in keys but also dungeon content lol

[timid idol]

dk is better than devourer lol

[sullen nimbus]

That’s fake

[timid idol]

it has like x30 parses and it actually does single target

[frail veldt]

it is lol

[sullen nimbus]

I think people are just bad at dh

[timid idol]

dk apologist

[sullen nimbus]

🤏

[frail veldt]

it tru

[vivid vessel]

lol

what ?

are people this delusional

[sullen nimbus]

what ?

[vivid vessel]

when it comes to class balance

in keys

or what

[sullen nimbus]

No

I’m

[frail veldt]

yes

[sullen nimbus]

Not

[frail veldt]

they are

[sullen nimbus]

Delusion

Al

Sorry

[vivid vessel]

arms is 20% ahead of outlaw in keys

and last i checked

arms isnt even meta

[frail veldt]

yep

[vivid vessel]

and outlaw isnt the worse spec in keys

so

[frail veldt]

what is the worst spec even

assa?

[vivid vessel]

idk

what

assa is better than outlaw

you guys living under a rock or what

[frail veldt]

I mean worst overall damage

[keen belfry]

thats why this 14% buff is funny to me cuz, certain keys im still not beating a ret paladin

[frail veldt]

is assa that juiced

havent seen it

[vivid vessel]

yes

[keen belfry]

genuinely

[vivid vessel]

assa is op

[sullen nimbus]

Statistically the lowest avg score is fdk but fdk is pretty decent now

Damage-wise idk

[timid idol]

ret seems hella good now

so yea

[craggy barn]

sin giga op

i can keep up with other busted classes

[frail veldt]

wait whos getting 14%

[sullen nimbus]

Outlaw

[keen belfry]

we are like 14ish percent

i think 13

[frail veldt]

ah the comment sounded like ret was

oh youre saying even with the buff

[rustic lotus]

14%

[frail veldt]

you wotn beat them

I gotcha

[timid idol]

if ret gets any buffs it will be uncontested first lol

[rustic lotus]

FOURTEEN HUH

[keen belfry]

ye certain keys i will not beat ret still

like magisters or alge

[fossil lintel]

14% damage in exchange for any fun you have playing it

[frail veldt]

yeye

[rustic lotus]

OH TRICKSTER

YIKES

[timid idol]

i saw ww was getting big buffs next week too, anyone have any ideea by how much % it is getting buffed?

[sullen nimbus]

Whatever number would make you most upset

[fossil lintel]

Damage neutral, it was nerfed this week

[timid idol]

none

i love ww

[sullen nimbus]

Then 0

[frail veldt]

so then 0

[timid idol]

if it was 200% i would still be happy

[keen belfry]

theres an interesting loop with trickster for me on dummies, if u are perma 3 buff u leave AR with like a minute left on CD, into KS, into proc a coup into basically AR agian

[timid idol]

ur joking

[rustic lotus]

Man. So we're back in kiling spree jail huh

[coral wyvern]

i really think rogue should have a 3% crit buff OR the best CC in game by far, or something i guess

[timid idol]

this company has tumor in its head

[frail veldt]

but it still has less adr than fatebound

by like 10-15%

[vivid vessel]

it has less uptime on adr

[coral wyvern]

and warriors should have hero, i mean come on...

[fossil lintel]

Nope, teb went from 2% crit per stack to 1%

Like a few days ago

[frail veldt]

thats in pvp

I thought

[keen belfry]

ur telling me trickster is 30% AR?

or u mean relative

[fossil lintel]

No that's pve

[frail veldt]

it casts adr 15% less

than fatebound

relatively

[vivid vessel]

!fuu

[ornate heath]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[keen belfry]

i have one log with no 3 buff uptime and on dummies for 4 minutes and i was 44% ar uptime

5 target aoe

idk what fateboun dis there

[frail veldt]

well yeah in pure aoe sure

fatebound cp benefits obv shrink in aoe

cuz bladeflurry

prob need to sim it once the talent changes come in

and see how it looks

funny were slowly creeping back up in adr uptime hahaha

[vivid vessel]

nvm

[timid idol]

they do

[vivid vessel]

same uptime

[timid idol]

heroic leap

[keen belfry]

ye it feels like it

[timid idol]

blizzard balance

who balances this game btw

[vivid vessel]

45.7% vs 44.4

[frail veldt]

in dslice specifically?

[keen belfry]

imo with coup and 3 buff it feels more but probs placebo

[vivid vessel]

i think its cause last we looked at trickster

it wasnt running prep

[vivid vessel]

st

aoe build

[frail veldt]

aaaah true

[keen belfry]

guys coup with 3 buff is so much cdr

just trust awang this tier ok?

[vivid vessel]

trickster apl is also prolly still a bit cooked

i havent thought about it much

[frail veldt]

ye

[vivid vessel]

will do when i play with it

[fossil lintel]

Pretty sure at this point they just pipe the mage, DK, warlock and pally forums into chatgpt and have it figure it out

[vivid vessel]

but what we do rn with ks isnt right

[keen belfry]

when i say ur builders dont matter as trikster? believe me
when i say ur ar uptime might go up? believe me

[frail veldt]

we prob want to do stuff for using UB

before second KS

after prep

[thick copper]

Yo zac, how % its the Buff for mext week?

[frail veldt]

I bet theres a few percent to squeeze out

[timid idol]

legit, and it doesnt even make sense, mage is popular sure, but warlock is just slightly more played than rogue

[keen belfry]

u need to playtest coup im 99% sure there will be optimizing the cdr of it

[timid idol]

like its so insanely obvious the people balancing the game only play 2-3 classes

[fossil lintel]

Oh yeah and I forgot, they have a script to generate random +- % for BF and psychic link

[vivid vessel]

pin

[keen belfry]

pin is not a number

[thick copper]

Just say 10% ahead of fb

[vivid vessel]

10% ahead of fb

[fossil lintel]

It says >10%

[timid idol]

what % should it have been to be ahead of literally everyone else

[craggy barn]

50

[timid idol]

[fossil lintel]

10% is the lower bound, the sky is the limit

[timid idol]

surely exaggerating

[craggy barn]

no

[timid idol]

cant be that bad

surely outlaw isnt like 5th worst spec in the game rn

[frail veldt]

to be ahead of every spec in the game?

[timid idol]

[frail veldt]

from where we are now?

like 30+% at least

[timid idol]

we got half

[fossil lintel]

And solo still need to work his magic and figure all the small optimizations for it

[timid idol]

12.1 another 14 and its gg

[fossil lintel]

Don't worry we're getting aura nerfed 15% in 2 weeks to compensate (nerfing both trickster and fatebound equally)

Heck, they may even announce the nerf today if they read solo's message

[gray summit]

10% is a lot

so everyone turn KS players

after 2 aura buff

[patent mirage]

those pesky rogues cant do high dmg

[gray summit]

we will get a nerf because they design badly a talent

[patent mirage]

cant have them do more dmg than mages

[fair sparrow]

!oh

[ornate heath]

A dagger offhand is ~1% better than a slow weapon mostly because of Zero In, and also slightly more Instant Poison procs. Energy is not affected by offhand speed.

It is possible large ilvl differences can matter more than this bonus so use Raidbots Top Gear when in doubt.

[fair sparrow]

hi

i hate pirates

but im gonna use your spec

[frail veldt]

we arent pirates anymore

they took all those abilities out

were like "highwaymen"

[icy hare]

Edward Kenways

[timid idol]

rtb was the only pirate thing left from legion

so they didn't really take "all those" abillities out

they just changed rtb flavor

[vagrant saddle]

we are pirates cos who else would have a gun and a sword

[fathom bramble]

yeah we haven't often had a lot of distinctly pirate stuff since legion

[rustic lotus]

Blizz doesnt know if we are Pirates or gunslinging cowboys

[fathom bramble]

but we will always be pirates since it is a more distinct and frankly cooler theme than any of the other ones outlaw tries to represent

[timid idol]

p much

they could make this spec ranged fury

with 2 guns

maybe if its ranged it will finally be good

[vagrant saddle]

nty

[frail veldt]

would be so fun

[timid idol]

but think about ranged bias from blizz

all those buffs

all that attention

[frail veldt]

blizz does love ranged

[fathom bramble]

would be cool to see 4th specs added to some classes instead of stuff like this

the hero talent that is between outlaw and gunslinger could also actually have a real theme too

[frail veldt]

if only they would just remove hero talents

[timid idol]

I MEAN

i did say

that in order for TLT to be on par with legion

they could add a new spec to all classes that is not the same role they already have

surely blizz would care enough to do that

[river wing]

yeah if they add gunslinger I'll be maining it even if it's unplayably bad

[frail veldt]

sounds like bad ROI for the work it would take

[timid idol]

dang it

[frail veldt]

but I guess they're used to bad roi and throwaway work after this whole addon thing

complete waste of everyones time

laughably bad execution

for no value

[old gull]

tuesday! killing spree is back

[timid idol]

i piss on their investments

[fathom bramble]

could help with hea;er/tank problems to some extent but some classes don't really have an obvious way to implement a healing/tank spec

at least not in a way that doesn't have overlap with another class

[frail veldt]

too bad KS is lower dpet than bte haha

[fathom bramble]

but maybe overlap is fine anyway

[timid idol]

would help massively, the amount of new thematics and gameplay all those new healer/tank specs would bring is insane

[fathom bramble]

I mean it would only be 4 new specs right

hunter/lock/mage/rogue

[timid idol]

potion healer rogue or some sorta pub brawler tank rogue

[fathom bramble]

tank/healer/healer/tank ?

in that order

[timid idol]

monk could get jade lightning range spec

[old gull]

its so bad rofl

[river wing]

legit just make combat again and make it a tank akin to Brew, your guile/luck runs out over time and you need to keep it up with dirty tricks and stuff

[frail veldt]

and its a fucking capstone

its unreal

[unique fulcrum]

u lowkey have to be dwarf to push.. do i buy the race change..

[frail veldt]

thats just not true

at all

[unique fulcrum]

if i get

2 dots

in 19s

im dead

[old gull]

fast action

[fathom bramble]

our capstones are just in a horrible state across the board

our strongest capstones are 3%

[frail veldt]

yeah that will still happen as dwarf

just one time less

[fathom bramble]

2 of them are actual damage decreases(without trickster)

and fast action exists

[river wing]

HO is unusable
KS is kinda bad to the point you won't use it out of Trickster
KiR is the only worthwhile but it feels kinda eh, like a crutch
FA is bad
Prep is usable but kinda bad

[keen belfry]

fart action

[fathom bramble]

and we got no iteration on any capstone other than the addition of prep during the beta

[dim parrot]

Dwarf pretty op this season

[fossil lintel]

How bad is trickster if I drop KS?

[unique fulcrum]

very

[keen belfry]

its only like 2.5%

[gray summit]

Why KS is so bad for u ?

i never used the new version

[fossil lintel]

Wait fully dropping KS is 2.5% only?

[fathom bramble]

well it's less about the flaws KS does have and more about just very low tuning

[rustic lotus]

it picks a random enemy to blast

[gray summit]

but in mono its good no ?

ok for mm+ its sucks

but in raid could be good

[fossil lintel]

It's just boring to press

[keen belfry]

its actually less

[keen belfry]

no

[fossil lintel]

Bro...

[keen belfry]

all of tricksters power is now fart cloud and fazed interactions

[gray summit]

why ? because u cant move during ?

[fossil lintel]

I may be playing ks-less trickster lol

[timid idol]

wait isnt ace becoming 1/1 next week?

[fathom bramble]

2/2

[timid idol]

[keen belfry]

it does no dmg and stops u from presisng other buttons

[fossil lintel]

It's still like 8% ahead of fatebound

You can move during it

[fathom bramble]

fix tricksters energy by simply not taking killingspree 🤔

[vagrant saddle]

they changed ace to force us to take 2 points

[fossil lintel]

But if I wanted to channel stuff I would play ww and not one of highest APM specs in the game

[unique fulcrum]

i miss using double coupe, that was a nice bug in tww

[keen belfry]

2 dispatcher might jhust be more vibes

but 2% is a lot of dmg

[fossil lintel]

That would be worse for energy, no? Since KS basically pools energy

[keen belfry]

without looking at numbers i swear KS does nothing for energy

u cant even AA during it and regen

[gaunt phoenix]

you are sacrificing some kind of energy talent to take KS anyway

[keen belfry]

ye

[fathom bramble]

KS doesn't really do anything other than let you wait

[gray summit]

In gameplay i dont know

[fathom bramble]

it's not like old KS that triggered a ton of energy from offhand hits

[keen belfry]

u normally leave KS with the same energy u pressed it as

[gray summit]

if its not better to play without KS

and taking other situation

but have to rebuild my mindset

and use my finishers at 6+ cp

wow

[fossil lintel]

It's 2% less damage but the ability to always interrupt!

[keen belfry]

its numerically worse to not take KS

but vibes improvement

[fossil lintel]

But can sanity be reduced to a number?

[gray summit]

its for that i said in gameplay

[dim parrot]

Tbh tho

Easier to execute rotation

KS gives u one million seconds

To check your cd’s etc

[gray summit]

sure that's right

[fossil lintel]

Solo, can we get an optimized KS-less trickster build?

[keen belfry]

i would just drop ks for acro in aoe

there isnt much u can do, maybe u can then drop sleight for 1 point dispatcher

id be very curious if 2 points heavy shitter is better than 2 points dispatcher

with new PS doing a billion dmg

[near rock]

u will press KS and u will like it

[cinder relic]

[fossil lintel]

Is this sim with the new changes?

[keen belfry]

we are cooking up a non KS build for trickster rn

dw guys

[gray summit]

I am a meta slayer

[keen belfry]

solo posted it i think ye

[gray summit]

i will play KS over other stuff

[fossil lintel]

It's only a 2% loss

[gray summit]

2% its considerable

[keen belfry]

i wonder if KS is worse or better in aoe

i actually have no clue

[fossil lintel]

Kill the meta, Mr meta slayer, don't join them

[keen belfry]

id guess worse, but its just a guess

[fossil lintel]

Yo, 2% less damage but infinite more prio?!?

[keen belfry]

depends cuz what if aoe build just insta cancel ks

we dont know how we will play ks

[fathom bramble]

it should be very nearly the same in aoe as long as you don't care how the damage is distributed

[keen belfry]

so then ks is worse in aoe for ppl who care

[cinder relic]

P sure going no ks is less prio cuz ud lose out on the gaurenteed procs

[fathom bramble]

or very slightly better in aoe since it spreads fazed if you are trickster

[keen belfry]

meh if ur coup doesnt do any dmg probs dont matter

[fossil lintel]

Doesn't the procs just aoe regardless?

[fathom bramble]

no

[keen belfry]

unless we tlaking fazed

[cinder relic]

P sure the ub procs would be on Ur main target

[fathom bramble]

fazed is only applied to 1 guy

[fossil lintel]

We can fart for fazed

[keen belfry]

yeah our new fart cloud takes care of fazed

[fathom bramble]

yeah it helps a lot

[gray summit]

ok go pray for a fatebound buff

[fathom bramble]

that's why I said very slightly better

because we have a real tool for aoe fazed now that isn't ks

[keen belfry]

this tree is so bad, how was it infinitely better in TWW when it was ass then too

trickster go boom

[gray summit]

because i dont want to play 6cp+ for couperet

[keen belfry]

literally on brand that tricksters saVing grace is alegit fart cloud

thats its defining feature now

a fart cloud

[fossil lintel]

At least they moved it off of distract before buffing the shit out of it

[keen belfry]

oh this ability that dictates unseen blades which is basically the capstone of teh whole hero tree is only a 1.9% loss to not take?

surely good design!

[gray summit]

Imagine its a buff of 6% in st for sub

fuk off

we cant just have an important buff in outlaw ????

[fossil lintel]

1.9% now, there may be apl optimizations that make it better

[keen belfry]

and yes we played trickster all of tww, the whole tree functioned differently cuz the whole spec functioned different

cant compare the 2 unless u wanna argue in bad faith

[swift moon]

!fuu

[ornate heath]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[fathom bramble]

it's more of a buff for law than sub

if anyone can complain it's not us

it's sin

[gray summit]

Yeah i know buddy

10%

[fossil lintel]

Sin is already op in m+

[gray summit]

But that’s not change for sub

Concerning their rota

Or i am wrong ?

[frail veldt]

I do wonder if sub finds a way to take advantage of the crit damage bonus on builders

[fossil lintel]

No, sub already plays trickster

[fossil lintel]

They seem to favor shadowstrike more from the pin there

[frail veldt]

150% bonus crit damage is wild

[fossil lintel]

Hm, 150% crit damage bonus makes dwarf / tauren damage racial significantly worse

[gray summit]

So sure we are lucky in outlaw

[cinder relic]

U just take the rotten instead of finality

Nothing else really

[gray summit]

But we have to change a lot our mindset

[cinder relic]

Crit probs gains value. Mastery loses value

That's abt it

[gray summit]

And concerning

Vanguard

I dont lnow if the smoke it’s a good solution ahah

[fathom bramble]

nothing will make us good on vanguard

[fossil lintel]

You just fart it and then stand in it once 10 sec after

[fathom bramble]

BF low target cleave % is too low and we have no other low target tools

[placid ocean]

What

[fathom bramble]

sin is good for like 2 weeks and then the other 2 get a massive buff

I don't think it's that big of a leap to think they can complain more than the specs that are getting buffed

[keen belfry]

sub gaining their burst niche back is very good for them

[frail veldt]

true actually

[keen belfry]

sub doing no dmg in cds was jsut funny to me

[placid ocean]

Sin is the highest boss damage in the game. Outlaw is bench spec. What does sin have to complain about?

[keen belfry]

like how were they not good at egg dmg on beleoroerlen?

that shits so funnny to me

[fathom bramble]

Refer to my previous statement

[cinder relic]

It just isn't

Sin isn't the highest boss damage spec in the game

[keen belfry]

boss dam logs are stupid

cuz some specs literally are told to go pad

[cinder relic]

Boss damage logs don't tell u how much boss damage specs do

[keen belfry]

so u look even worse at boss dam

[cinder relic]

Exactly

[keen belfry]

assa just hits the boss

so ofc its good at boss dam

[cinder relic]

It's like on voracious, sin literally cannot do any damage to the adds, so any smart rogue player isn't going to swap ever

Meanwhile both sub and outlaw can

[keen belfry]

people are so bad at data in wow

i dont blame them tho ig

most eeveryone i know seems a boss dam log and htinks hoyl shit assa blasts bosses

[cinder relic]

There's a reason data analyst is a job you need expertise in

[keen belfry]

maybe ill look into that

rn

anyone want me

i dont wanna write code rn

but is sub bac k to being a top burst spec

cuz if it is i dont mind playing it when i have to

[keen belfry]

i enjoyed tww sub dropping a nuke then a fart

felt like i was pressing buttons when i had cds

[placid ocean]

Now you drop a fart, then a nuke

Now being next week

[keen belfry]

a fart nuke is sick

stryx have u been convinced yet that assa boss dam is overrated?

[placid ocean]

Maybe

[keen belfry]

ty

or

np yw

[timid idol]

i enjoyed tww

when ar was perma

and energy or gcd was nonexistent

and i was playing piano

but i was having too much fun

so we had to remove

and gut

unlucky

[keen belfry]

its okay they designed it to old outlaw that people loved but sitll wont comeback to

so its just us left

[fossil lintel]

It's still a rogue at the end of the day

[placid ocean]

Current outlaw is still fun

Until you run out of energy

Or roll a 1

Or have to move away from the boss for any reason and lose uptime

[timid idol]

wtf old outlaw is this

it never felt this bad

this is an abomination

a combination of the worst of all worlds

[keen belfry]

its like old outlaw but less ok?

take it or leave it

[cinder relic]

Shadowlands bfaish

[timid idol]

i swear it didnt feel this bad in sl

and bfa was peak gaming until hard cap

[cinder relic]

Bfa never had the hard cap

That was a sl change

[placid ocean]

I like how I can roll a jackpot and get 7 BtE resets in a row, and still do less damage than the tank. It's peak gameplay

[fossil lintel]

Yeah it feels very much similar to SL / DF S1 tbh

[fathom bramble]

It plays similar to those 2 but this version needs haste to play well

[timid idol]

i swear i remember mdi meta changing in bfa

what was the nerf back then

[cinder relic]

That's because outlaw got nerfed

[timid idol]

[cinder relic]

Also outlaw always struggled in MDI setting because no burst

MDI =/= real keys

[timid idol]

ye true

but before that it was x3 otl

was funny

i miss

[cinder relic]

Yeah that was s2

Wits was very broken

[timid idol]

we should have kept our wits about us...

now look where we at...

[cinder relic]

Probably not kept it but I think it should come back atp

[timid idol]

its never coming back

[cinder relic]

Probs

[timid idol]

whoever makes that bluepost every ptr saying that this is the rogue feedback thread

is a janitor that is paid

to make the post

and never log in on the acc

or check the thread

ever again

has anyone at blizzard ever specifically adressed the hard cap

since its the only one in the game

have we ever had a direct quote on it

[cinder relic]

It's not the only one in game

[timid idol]

stating why it exists

half of fury's shit is uncapped so

might as well be

[cinder relic]

There's a few specs that have a hard cap still. It just so happens that outlaw is the one hurt by it the most as it doesn't have a big aoe button like fury does

[vagrant saddle]

we need bf to be gone, give us actual aoe

[timid idol]

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=155284/cannonball-barrage

[fathom bramble]

the only statements we have are from a very long time ago and do not seem to align with the current design of target caps in wow

[cinder relic]

The "general rule" is spells that "cause st abilities specifically to cleave" are capped. That part of whirlwind, sweeping strikes, and trickshot still are that way

It's just arms fury and mm have buttons bigger than blade rush to help on uncapped pulls

[timid idol]

fun

[vagrant saddle]

was shit, maybe if they buff it but we need actual aoe, bladeflurry is just ass

[timid idol]

so

[fathom bramble]

except spatter, beast cleave, shadowpriest, and feral are all not hardcapped on their st abilities cleave stuff

[timid idol]

i mean ye it would need buffs

but it was fun

[fathom bramble]

I don't think there is a real 'rule' to which all spells are held

[timid idol]

and thematic

[cinder relic]

Well to be pedantic, spatter doesn't cause your st abilities to cleave

It's causing nature damage to cleave

[fathom bramble]

I guess

but in either case there is no hard rule for it

else shadow, BM, and feral would work differently

[cinder relic]

The cap causes More psychic damage to ppl than it does actual damage so it probs should be removed

[fathom bramble]

it''s weird because it rarely matters(especially in raid), but when it matters it matters a lot

it means doing half damage on pulls like the first AA pull

but most pulls it doesn't really effect your damage by a meaningful amount to be hardcapped 8 vs softcapped 8

[timid idol]

so

[cinder relic]

If it's any consolation, fury, a spec with a lot of uncapped spells, also deals 0 fucking damage on that pull

[timid idol]

outlaw whirlwind when?

o wait

thats supposed to be killing spree

[cinder relic]

Whirlwind is capped

[timid idol]

2% btw

meant bladestorm

[cinder relic]

It's thunderclap and odyns fury that's uncapped

[timid idol]

mb

[cinder relic]

U don't even play bstorm xd

[fathom bramble]

if we want to get pedantic 😛 whirlwind is softcapped

improved whirlwind is hardcapped

[cinder relic]

Yah

Its not like whirlwind cast damage is anything XD

[fathom bramble]

true

[harsh cape]

Will playing trickster increase the value of crit?

[cinder relic]

Probably

[worldly zephyr]

i was gonna craft a dagger so i could switch between outlaw and assa but now im not so sure in light of these outlaw buffs next week

[cinder relic]

Well u can craft one and play sub and outlaw lol

[fathom bramble]

a crafted dagger is still a bis OH for outlaw so it is a plenty reasonable craft

you just may want to craft a MH as well

[cinder relic]

I'd also say if Ur expecting to pick up outlaw with no exp because of how big the buffs are Ur gonna be letdown

Just a fair warning

[worldly zephyr]

i have a 285 crafted sword for outlaw