i like that i litteraly cannot have a good way
#outlaw
desert tendon
how comes
worthy ice
you mean the same comp wowtoxic doing every mdi
desert tendon
Still cant onetrick in mdi?
vivid vessel
you mean the same comp wowtoxic doing every mdi
except they can only play one day
then day 2 they auto lose
vivid vessel
it s just spec right
yes
desert tendon
Day 2 we have woxdhtank
worthy ice
they are there
worthy ice
and make me happy to see them
vivid vessel
well we wont be
i also find mdi training extremely boring
its like running resil keys every day
for 3 week straight
mighty pivot
time to unretire your windwalker zac
vivid vessel
we would just play live
desert tendon
i played mgsd 8h a day for 4 months, no break
worthy ice
not like those mdi players have something better to do
vivid vessel
we play 2 nights a week so
desert tendon
i mean, most of the good mdi players are making a living from streaming
desert tendon
so they just stream their training
shy jewel
Hey fellas new to this spec aint even 90 yet but i'd like to get a feel for it. I am VERY confused on roll the bones. When is it worth to press this button? say im at stage 3 do i fuckin risk it and go for stage 4 or just let the buff fall off before pressing? do we hold at stage 2 to hopefully not get fucked over by a potential 1 roll?
desert tendon
not like it's changing something
desert tendon
:)
vivid vessel
who is streaming mdi prac
everyone wdym
desert tendon
everyone now
glass mortar
lots of good info in the FaQ and its well explainedi
gaunt phoenix
you want to have an rtb buff active at all times. if you have stage 1, you reroll. if you have stage 2+, you keep it until it runs out
desert tendon
They gave up on keeping thing secrets last expac, because they would do more monney streaming it and losing, than hiding it and winning
basically
glass mortar
i highly recommend a read through its written by our goat solo who also just answered ur question
worthy ice
i dont see kira streaming or meeres
shy jewel
https://discord.com/channels/124169701881282560/1276307559061524652/147826659202...
ok i did see that but i guess i had to double check i was understanding it correctly, rerolling only on stage 1 or 2 makes sense. i'll just hold if at the other 2 higher stages thanks!
dim parrot
Solo is sub getting same 10% as outlaw from this or nah
gaunt phoenix
i know jack shit about sub
vivid vessel
Solo is sub getting same 10% as outlaw from this or nah
ye prolly
cinder relic
Its less than what outlaw gets
shy jewel
oh yeah i did read that wrong lol
vivid vessel
we might gain more cause its up so often
shy jewel
ok thats simple then
vivid vessel
but they get it in cds wehre they do most of their damage
shy jewel
i dont even need to learn the stages lol if i see that icon on my cooldown manager for stage 1 ik to press otherwise hold ezpz
vivid vessel
they are about to do 20% more damage in cds now so its definitly good value
cinder relic
Outlaw gains more from new cloud cover than what Sub does
glass mortar
subs is nice for their profile but their uptime should be a pittance compared to ours, it procs off blades for them right?
vivid vessel
yes
dim parrot
Prep mandatory now
vivid vessel
i mean i can sim it
dim parrot
KS spam
worthy ice
dew it
cinder relic
Hello is this thing on
I'm telling you its a smaler increase for sub compared to outlaw
shy jewel
something tells me im in for a long fuckin learning curve comin into outlaw idek wtf yall talkin about lmao
worthy ice
its bigger fors ure
dim parrot
Hello is this thing on
Do you know the %
sullen walrus
!addons
cinder relic
like 5ish or smthing
dim parrot
Nice
vivid vessel
3% for sub it seems
dim parrot
Maybe dodges a nerf then
vivid vessel
maybe outlaw op
i will actually prog lura
as outlaw
thats kidna crazy
its next week no ?
gaunt phoenix
ye
desert tendon
didnt happen since when?
dim parrot
They gonna aura nerf outlaw to make up for this
mighty pivot
bf nerfed in 3...2...
inland meteor
itll be hotfixed within 24 hours
worthy ice
i gonna message blizzard right now
desert tendon
we re giving ideas zac!
worthy ice
so they know
cinder relic
I think the smart thing to do is talk about how amazing this talent is before launch nonstop
desert tendon
???????
abstract frost
Whysper is gonna put out a pin saying rogue is too strong per usual
cinder relic
?
gaunt phoenix
vivid vessel
abstract frost
Explaining why this talent is too strong and needs to be tuned down
I can see it already
cinder relic
Notice how no devourer or MM Is talking about how they are getting buffed
vivid vessel
they are ?
cinder relic
Yes
vivid vessel
whatdehelly
abstract frost
MM got shot in the face
shy jewel
with the changes coming we will be swapping hero trees?
abstract frost
It’s not getting buffed
cinder relic
cinder relic
So true
vivid vessel
with the changes coming we will be swapping hero trees?
if you wanna do 10% more damage ye
fallow hinge
Notice how no devourer or MM Is talking about how they are getting buffed
MM's getting absolutely cratered
worthy ice
so they buffed trickster, what about other hero trees?
vivid vessel
so they buffed trickster, what about other hero trees?
they didnt buff trickster
shy jewel
if you wanna do 10% more damage ye
ok just hopping into this so hopefully no super major rotation changes otherwise imma level at trickster
vivid vessel
they added a new talent to trickster
that accidentally
is 10% + dps
because that happens by accident
cinder relic
MM's getting absolutely cratered
The streets have told me that MM is getting buffed
vivid vessel
when the rogue dev
worthy ice
accidentally you say
vivid vessel
is the rogue dev
cinder relic
I believe what the streets are saying
fallow hinge
The streets have told me that MM is getting buffed
the streets are full of lies
abstract frost
They saw steady shot buff and got hype
worthy ice
i wonder if blizzard wonder if rogue state in game is fine
abstract frost
Even though 100% of 0 is 0
karmic gust
Gonna have to look into trickster it sounds like honey to my ears
fallow hinge
Even though 100% of 0 is 0
0.61*
cinder relic
the streets are full of lies
I heard multiple hunter players tell me that hunter is unplayable in preseason
So just refuse to believe anything
I'm gonna assume its a buff, and we will see on week 1
I know like, 100% certain, devourer is getting buffed
vivid vessel
accidentally you say
it is litteraly accidental ye
abstract frost
Foreverguy might be right
cinder relic
Like 3%? ST buff
vivid vessel
pure incompetence
fallow hinge
I heard multiple hunter players tell me that hunter is unplayable in preseason
we're 100% swapping back to dark ranger, and all of our raid and m+ value was in lunar storm tech
abstract frost
They are gonna nerf outlaw into the ground before they let a hunter spec be bad
vivid vessel
@gaunt phoenix my fatebound sim is lower on ptr than live btw
worthy ice
I heard multiple hunter players tell me that hunter is unplayable in preseason
like we had 2 ppl reroll to devouer before season and than my guld played havoc anyway 😄
cinder relic
accidentally you say
Any time rogue gets something good, zac is of the mind that the devs wouldnt have done that on purpose
fallow hinge
It just has to be better than bm 🤞
gaunt phoenix
<@921608341048930304> my fatebound sim is lower on ptr than live btw
its bc the last tuning thing isnt on ptr
dim parrot
Now make KS do prio damage
vivid vessel
its bc the last tuning thing isnt on ptr
which ?
dim parrot
Bro what
abstract frost
BM DR feels cheeks to play
vivid vessel
im only aware of the ace change
cinder relic
The aura buff we just got
gaunt phoenix
the last 4% tuning
worthy ice
you mean zac scaring realz away
dim parrot
I mean
vivid vessel
@gaunt phoenix the one pinned where the wrong ones right
cinder relic
Probably played a part
vivid vessel
without the coin buff and shit
dim parrot
Rogue is an underdeveloped class so ??
shy jewel
sorry if this has been answered but ive been trying to look in the FAQ. Any helpful macros to reduce buttons or is it just better to keep everything on its own button?
gaunt phoenix
<@921608341048930304> the one pinned where the wrong ones right
yea, hold on
cinder relic
Rogue is an underdeveloped class so ??
idt rogue is underdeveloped, its just undertuned
I hate the conflation between all these terms lol
worthy ice
wasnt realz moved to another job anyway
vivid vessel
wasnt realz moved to another job anyway
he still works on sub
worthy ice
thats actually cool
cinder relic
Theres a lot of fanfiction written about realz which is probably why he doesn't hang out in discords much anymore
gaunt phoenix
sorry if this has been answered but ive been trying to look in the FAQ. Any help...
outlaw doesnt have dps macros, just like @ cursor grapple hook
vivid vessel
well its not fan fiction to say he still works on sub and not outlaw tho
thats just real
shy jewel
gotcha ok thanks fellas!
vivid vessel
confirmed in 10 different ways
sand berry
is it known what the augmented by means yet? or do they just like stack together
gaunt phoenix
it is not known
shy jewel
hopefully i can get the hang of this, chronic main swapper but never played rogue always been a lil intimidating but i usually pick up every other spec in the game fairly quickly
worthy ice
i actaully dont care if we undeperform for one season, but i do care that we have irelevant raid buff. That really bother me
glass mortar
buff atro
vivid vessel
dim parrot
LOL
glass mortar
make shiv atroable as well
cinder relic
This is the first season its been irrelevant
glass mortar
!
cinder relic
Its been a good raid buff for literally 5+ years
worthy ice
nah
dim parrot
Not for m+
worthy ice
you cope
vivid vessel
first season outlaw underperform 
cinder relic
M+ has its own issues with raid buffs that needs to be solved somehow
glass mortar
cleave season gamers
r cleave is doodoo
cinder relic
That doesn't detract from the fact that atro has been good enough for rogue to see play for 5+ years in raid, even when "its mid"
worthy ice
max literary said he would play atro if rogue wasnt that much shit, but you cant bench shaman buff for example
glass mortar
they took it out back and murdered it
dim parrot
Playing ele this season for m+ and it’s gravy
worthy ice
just becasue all shamans are shits
dim parrot
Unlimited utility
cinder relic
Correct. And rogue hasn't been this shit on DPS in over 5 years
glass mortar
i mean every class is an equation of the tuning vs the raid buff value
vivid vessel
Correct. And rogue hasn't been this shit on DPS in over 5 years
except that other time it was benched
glass mortar
id say its fair to say theres alot of raid buffs in the game you'd bring with almost any tuning on a spec
vivid vessel
and that other time also
glass mortar
and rogues is among the worst for that
cinder relic
which was when?
vivid vessel
and that one time
cinder relic
can you name these times instead of being vague?
vivid vessel
idk like at least one boss a season
desert tendon
the only big issue i dont get with atro is why it doesnt reduce environnemental damage
rancid silo
stix buknjunker
desert tendon
worthy ice
zac was benched on nerub palace
vivid vessel
i dont remember well
worthy ice
i remember
vivid vessel
all these things
glass mortar
because its a debuff on the boss not a buff on players
worthy ice
than he left
cinder relic
They didn't play rogue on stix, because that boss for WF guilds required 3+ boomkins, and atro didnt work on trash damage
desert tendon
u cant stab the floor
zeross is often a carpet tho, he stabs the floor a lot
dim parrot
Devo aura Better
desert tendon
stix it was not atro fault
cinder relic
Atro is usually better than dev aura
desert tendon
it was range + aoe fault
dim parrot
Not when tanks are gathering
vivid vessel
They didn't play rogue on stix, because that boss for WF guilds required 3+ boom...
ok they still wouldnt have benched a warrior tho
tawdry mason
Devo aura Better
Shocking really
vivid vessel
or a monk
glass mortar
why is this even a debate
dim parrot
Sometimes most dangerous part of pull
glass mortar
all the specs we are mentioning have real utility beyond their raid buff anyway
vivid vessel
or a druid
dim parrot
and no atro
glass mortar
if they arent going to give us real utility
they could buff atro
no reason something of that nature shouldnt be buffed for rogues
vivid vessel
fact is atro is still the worse raid buff in the raid
glass mortar
we've been bin tier for group utility for ages
cinder relic
Not when tanks are gathering
worthy ice
im just saying atro not good enough compared to other raid buffs, thats all im tryin to say, that i wish we have more desireable raid buff like mage or dh have or shamna or anyone else.
desert tendon
And yea looking at logs atro is 90% of the time better than devo aura with aura mastery
tawdry mason
Atro decent if it works issues is it doesn't work on some shit
cinder relic
it doesnt work on 1 boss, every other tier usually
cinder relic
and on every other situation, its just better than dev aura
gaunt phoenix
@vivid vessel override.spell_data=effect.179720.base_value=56 # aura override.spell_data=effect.191056.base_value=56 # aura override.spell_data=effect.1294586.base_value=50 # aura override.spell_data=effect.1312945.base_value=-19 # aura override.spell_data=effect.1312946.base_value=-19 # aura override.spell_data=effect.191059.base_value=332 # autoattack override.spell_data=effect.136652.base_value=28 # blade flurry override.spell_data=effect.1135777.base_value=25 # nimble flurry override.spell_data=effect.1252594.base_value=5 # fate intertwined
verified correct
rancid silo
devo and atro are basically the same thing, pally just brings other resources that are more valuable
worthy ice
its just outaded buff, its couple sec long debuff, it need to stick atleast
vivid vessel
<@352916297262301194> ```override.spell_data=effect.179720.base_value=56 # aura
...
i appreciate your work kind sir
glass mortar
it probably should stick also yea like the damage taken debuffs
tawdry mason
double atro value in keys
let people pick 3 w.e buffs from raid buffs in keys and ur group covers the other 2 thoughts
abstract frost
why atro when devo aura
cinder relic
The only reason rogue was sat this tier is we had paladins, which was bad for melee, and rogue is undertuned on that damage profile
And then alleria, which was another unplayable melee fight where rogue did nothing exceptional
cinder relic
why atro when devo aura
because atro is stronger than dev aura
rancid silo
^
rancid silo
ret is 9/10 worse than rogue in most cases though lol usually just bring prot/hpal but rn thats not the case
worthy ice
bro im literary scared that i will have to play outlaw next week
cinder relic
its a few things
worthy ice
i was never scared that much in my life
gaunt phoenix
<@921608341048930304> fatebound gains 2.4% on reset
huge
tawdry mason
bro im literary scared that i will have to play outlaw next week
outlaw is really fun tho
vivid vessel
worthy ice
not in raid
cinder relic
1, hpal is unplayable
2, prot is unplayable
3, ret is actually a strong DPS rn
vivid vessel
abstract frost
inland acorn
Is this st ?
vivid vessel
https://tenor.com/view/child-9gag-gif-no-noo-gif-18262281
better learn the spec lil bro
vivid vessel
Is this st ?
ye
tawdry mason
not in raid
I vibe with it more in raid than keys but I did roll 3 back to back jackpots last night
glass mortar
its not too late for them to delete this talent and template buff us....
tawdry mason
Might be biased
glass mortar
blizzard take my energy.....
tawdry mason
inland acorn
blizzard take my energy.....
The only thing they can take is money
vivid vessel
your spec get 13% buff on reset
cause of a talent
they forgot to test
tuning is good in wow
thick coyote
What was the trickster change?
vivid vessel
all accidental
livid trench
Time to craft a one hander Tuesday and bang
glass mortar
a talent they almost certainly did no math on and is probably ending up this strong as a mistake
vivid vessel
then gets nerfed by 15%
aura nerf
dim parrot
Bro they are turbo pounding this talent into the ground
gaunt phoenix
trickster should get an extra 1% from apl
cinder relic
zac is it physically possible for you to ever be happy
vivid vessel
trickster should get an extra 1% from apl
huge !
worthy ice
he was hurt when he was younger
green name zac was better
i have tis very pog weapon in my backpack
im so back
near holly
Ya 13% from this. My hopes are not high we keep this at all lol.
vivid vessel
zac is it physically possible for you to ever be happy
trickster energy is worse
every builder on trickster gets you to 5 cp but you have to build to 6 so all the fun builder and finisher rules are gone on trickster its mindlessly boring
killing spree is still rng targetting + its ass + its double ass cause it doesnt scale with adr + its triple ass cause prep
i have to play in cloud cover omegalul tank cant move and i cant see spells on the ground
but yes im happy i will be doing 15% more damage sudeently for fun
jagged plover
tbf i dont think them accidentally buffing the fuck out of our spec into an (arguably) worse playstyle but better tuning necessarily means you should be happy
vivid vessel
until we prolly get aura nerfed
cause its not intended
the only happy part about all this is the dps increase
spec get worse in every way possible
glass mortar
im sure its intended this one new talent is worth like 50% of the entire trickster talent tree dps gains
vivid vessel
if you care about gameplayt
cinder relic
cause its not intended
This is what i mean
vivid vessel
for sure for sure
cinder relic
Rogue is dogshit man
jagged plover
they're accidentally throwing us a bone doesn't mean we gotta wag our tails for them
cinder relic
Why cant u just say "nice a big buff, maybe rogue is good now, maybe its an outlaw tier now for the rest of farm"
dim parrot
they're accidentally throwing us a bone doesn't mean we gotta wag our tails for ...
Fuck yeah
cinder relic
Instead its "OH MY FUCKING GOD I CANT BELIEVE THEY ACCIDENTALLY DID THIS TO US AND NOW WE ARE GOING TO GET BLADEFLURRY NERFED AGAIN AURA NERF HOLY FUCK THESE DEVS"
Like my god man
vivid vessel
Why cant u just say "nice a big buff, maybe rogue is good now, maybe its an outl...
you think a trickster ndoe being worth 10% dps, completly killing fatebound is intended ?
dim parrot
We don’t wag our tails for blizz Guy
cinder relic
Who is asking u to wag ur tail
worthy ice
trisckter outlaw have triple amount of buttons as sub
cinder relic
are u a furry or something?
glass mortar
i mean zac gave u like 10 reasonable complaints about why trickster is dogshit and maybe u dont agree with them but seems like alot of people do
abstract frost
no tail wagging or complaining needed. Outlaw gets nerfed regardless of what you say or do
glass mortar
i dont think in that he included they r probably going to nerf bf because of this
abstract frost
vivid vessel
i mean zac gave u like 10 reasonable complaints about why trickster is dogshit a...
he didnt even read
glass mortar
so no, im not particularly excited when blizzard hands me a turd and says as long as i eat this turd i will do 10% more dps
worthy ice
i support zac
cinder relic
Oh my god
dim parrot
Kek
cinder relic
This might be the worst channel in the discord
worthy ice
im his bigest sub giver
cinder relic
Genuinely
glass mortar
2late
vivid vessel
weran
vivid vessel
NO
cinder relic
I'm a cuck because Outlaw is getting a buff and I want to play it?
glass mortar
IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THE MISPELL ONE
vivid vessel
I'm a cuck because Outlaw is getting a buff and I want to play it?
nah idk just because i said so
owned no ?
cinder relic
You genuinely have the mental of a 5 year old]
river wing
blizzard take my energy.....
they are doing just that with the tues change tho
you're gonna have less energy
vivid vessel
You genuinely have the mental of a 5 year old]
i win the argument gg easy
glass mortar
i think zac said ur a cuck because ur acting like its unreasonable for a change to be dogshit and still be a big buff and for people to complain about it
idk if our complaints are unclear?
trickster plays worse then fatebound in like every single way
even if u like kspree thats the only positive
but idk i wouldnt use cuck like that personally
cinder relic
I had to listen to you guys say that this spec is unplayable all of alpha, beta, preseason, and now
vivid vessel
but idk i wouldnt use cuck like that personally
its my safe word
dim parrot
Hitting AR into KSx2 lets rip it
jagged plover
zac is always an inflammatory little bastard but i dont think it's unreasonable to be frustrated with this change
vivid vessel
I had to listen to you guys say that this spec is unplayable all of alpha, beta,...
and we were right
cinder relic
Stop talking to me
glass mortar
if blizzard buffed steady shot on MM by 500% and MM got a 20% buff and all it did was press steady shot every gcd of the fight
vivid vessel
i had to listen to you telling me energy was fine
glass mortar
do u think people wouldnt be right to be upset about that
vivid vessel
and you were once again wrong !
glass mortar
obviously trickster isnt that bad
cinder relic
Moron the class has mroe issues than energy
glass mortar
just giving a comparison
dim parrot
KEK
vivid vessel
wtf he called me a moron !
cinder relic
Because you are one
vivid vessel
maybe ..
karmic gust
too far
jagged plover
and this change exacerbates some of those issues but because it's a tuning buff we should be happy?
vivid vessel
i win this argument tho lil bro
inland meteor
i love being in this channel because outlaw rogues are unhinged mentally
vivid vessel
wrap it up
dim parrot
Guys wait
cinder relic
and this change exacerbates some of those issues but because it's a tuning buff ...
This is not what I'm saying at all
hoary wave
Hello guys
vivid vessel
we go next one next week cuh
vivid vessel
i mean id eat a 3-4% dps loss to not play trickster
4% is an insane number
karmic gust
fr i'd rather do less dmg than have to play this
vivid vessel
im fine with 1 %
glass mortar
yes but im more casual then u
for players like u id expect 1-2% max
to be ur flex point for talents
near rock
This might be the worst channel in the discord
it is
gaunt phoenix
except me im cool
cinder relic
ofc
vivid vessel
glass mortar
gg zac
abstract frost
Where is Zeross
gaunt phoenix
wtf..
vivid vessel
i miss zeross
abstract frost
@proven ocean
glass mortar
wtf.....
abstract frost
We need you here
vivid vessel
was more fun when zeross was here
inland meteor
its true
vivid vessel
i agree with this statment
karmic gust
fr other ones are too corporate
keen belfry
guy is just unlucky cause he has been cursed with being a class writer for a spec he doesnt play and a community he hates, he literally is cursed
glass mortar
other class channels have never managed to chase their own dev out of the channel
cinder relic
I playt he spec
glass mortar
massive achievement
vivid vessel
good one
jagged plover
i mean tbh im surprised this channel isn't more insane with how cooked outlaw is
cinder relic
You are genuinely a fucking moron awang
keen belfry
thats toxic
vivid vessel
so toxic ..
cinder relic
Then quit saying stupid shit on my name
keen belfry
the only guide being written is how to be toxic...
mighty pivot
green names are so toxic that's why nobody wants to play rogue 
vivid vessel
idk maybe one day outlaw get a nice change without having a caveat of shit attached to it
like even the ace thing
just buff the cp gen to 5
no ?
dim parrot
Bro I’m telling u
vivid vessel
cant have one good thing fr
dim parrot
They gonna nerf the talent
vivid vessel
always has to come with asshole
dim parrot
But trickster still gonna be ahead 3%
karmic gust
i don't get why they're so scared of making the spec feel good to play and do dmg
glass mortar
the constantly tuning BF up or down with every tiny change is comical
given how ok our aoe is and how dog our cleave is
its like they are so afraid we might have a strength
inland meteor
its like they are so afraid we might have a strength
our strength is the mental strength
jagged plover
bfa outlaw gave them permanent brainaids
karmic gust
let's go and buff the 4 button class instead
keen belfry
i think going boom about this spec when we are now forced intro trickster is super super acceptable
trickster is actual aids
vivid vessel
given how ok our aoe is and how dog our cleave is
"ok" is a strong word
glass mortar
we just have the best tuning guy in the game idk
karmic gust
who tf likes kspree btw
vivid vessel
im pretty sure i have the worse aoe in my grp
glass mortar
he makes sure every aura buff meant for ST is st only
silver venture
is there any video guide for algethar academy , like i can never catch up to any other class on first pull no matter what i do
glass mortar
brother ur target capped
karmic gust
they remove the cap when
long barn
Zac if you had to pick a class this season from what you see now what would it be
inland meteor
for trickster only
silver venture
shit aight so paladin doing 900k dps with aug calling me dogshit is just wrong
got it
karmic gust
before next decade 
glass mortar
theres no world where ur beating or matching players of equal skill and spec strength on a pull where ur pulling 20 guys
buoyant cosmos
they remove the cap when
when zac retires
vivid vessel
it does make sense that the only target capped spec in the game also has the worse 2t 3t 4t 5t 6t 7t 8t aoe in the grp
it does make sense when you think about it
inland meteor
im thinking
karmic gust
just giga buff arms instead
vivid vessel
just need to think about it hard
keen belfry
letting it sink in rn
jagged plover
if you actually take all the changes and losses and downsides of outlaw relative to how other classes get treated i dont know how you can't be bitter 
cinder relic
and this change exacerbates some of those issues but because it's a tuning buff ...
What I'm saying extremely specifically is how is the spec getting a large buff, enough to make it actually viable in a raid setting and the majority of the comments from zac is "OH MY GOD THE DEVS ACCIDENTALLY MADE A GOOD TALENT FOR OUTLAW? WHAT THE FUCK ARE THEY THINKING I CANT WAIT FOR THEM TO NERF THE SPEC BECAUSE OF A TALENT THAT MAKES IT PLAYABLE"
Whether or not trickster plays better, or worse is subjective. Some people like KS, some people don't. Some people like an easier playstyle, some people don't. Cloud Cover will be annoying to play with sometimes, obviously true.
I am not trying to say "well the spec is getting a buffed to just enjoy it and shut up" What I'm saying is maybe we don't need to have an actual nerd explosion any time the spec gets a buff, or a nerf and blow everything into a catastrophic, spec ending event every single time
vivid vessel
anyone reading all that ?
dim parrot
it does make sense that the only target capped spec in the game also has the wor...
K wait we in to something here
long barn
Also… why does do ret pally get like 12% dmg from sky fury and not get nerfed
karmic gust
pally really needs to get looked at
buoyant cosmos
Also… why does do ret pally get like 12% dmg from sky fury and not get nerfed
Because they shut down the discord
rancid silo
Ret good it aint THAT good (in raid)
cinder relic
ret is like one of the 3 good melee DPS this tier
karmic gust
Ret good it aint THAT good (in raid)
in m+ the amount of effort to do insane dmg is comical tho
cinder relic
Its like ret, UDK, and then kinda warrior but not realy
long barn
We need to shut down the discord and actually get someone to fucking listen
livid trench
Is it a coincidence that the good melee specs also can still damage from range…
cinder relic
Ret does not do good dmage from ranged
vivid vessel
What I'm saying extremely specifically is how is the spec getting a large buff, ...
its not subjective, find me one guy that enjoy building again at 5cp, instead of hitting 6 cp with good builders rules on fatebound, and being able to finish at 5 cp to not feel like ass
find me one guy that enjoy having less energy
and find me one guy that will enjoy having to sit in a puddle of shit, with tank moving out of it
rancid silo
in m+ the amount of effort to do insane dmg is comical tho
yea, but ret has always been meant to be the "easy class"
buoyant cosmos
We need to shut down the discord and actually get someone to fucking listen
we aren't cringe
glass mortar
well zac u missed the other positive
trickster has noticably more variance then fatebound
long barn
we aren't cringe
No we are clucks
glass mortar
so we will in fact be more random then last expac
indigo token
cause I said that the guild leader shouldnt use chatgpt to write announcements
glass mortar
big plus
karmic gust
yea, but ret has always been meant to be the "easy class"
for sure but almost every class does better than outlaw with a third of the effort
indigo token
Generative AI has hit the wow community like crack did to low income neighborhoods
jagged plover
What I'm saying extremely specifically is how is the spec getting a large buff, ...
i mean in theory i agree with this but i think most people here are just paranoid except it's not even paranoia because for my living memory of the spec this is exactly what happens and half the time we end up worse off than before. if we don't that's cool i guess but i'd still rather be playing fatebound or them make trickster actually not cringe instead of only pumping the numbers far beyond fatebound to make people play it (assuming it's even intentional in the first place)
regarding trickster gameplay yes in theory it's subjective but i don't think you'll find many people preferring it from the sounds of the rules it has
that and giving us RoP from temu is a good ass meme though
dim parrot
Yes very good chance we end up worse off than before
buoyant cosmos
cause I said that the guild leader shouldnt use chatgpt to write announcements
Why is an announcement so long that he CBA to just type for 2 minutes
cinder relic
Yes very good chance we end up worse off than before
Like this is exactly what I mean
indigo token
Why is an announcement so long that he CBA to just type for 2 minutes
not really?
it was like.. 3 paragraphs
indigo token
it had the really obvious turn of phrases and em dashes
glass mortar
me personally im just tired of changes with zero iteration or and tremendous lack of communication
dim parrot
You think they don’t nerf it but then forced to play trickster with still bad tuning
jagged plover
okay but can you blame people for dooming about outlaw tuning when it's basically been dogshit for ages now
glass mortar
when other specs get cool new stuffs they often get changed a few times on ptr
dim parrot
Guess we see
glass mortar
then even reverted based on community feedback
last sets of changes we got were kspree where they ignored 4 pages of feedback and shipped us exactly what their first iteration idea of it was
cinder relic
You think they don’t nerf it but then forced to play trickster with still bad tu...
ITS NOT EVEN OYUT YET AND WERE ASKING FOR NERFS
WHAT IS HAPPENING
ROGUE SUCKS
ROGUE NEEDS SHIT LIKE THIS
ROGUE IS SO ASS
glass mortar
alpha where we got 3 weeks of "iteration" then were lockedi n basically to live
jagged plover
also yeah we so often get one change and they just never iterate on it at all
glass mortar
and now this, where once again
no communication
no iteration
just this talent, with flaws, that could be cool
dim parrot
We’re not asking for anything brother just making predictions based on past decisions
glass mortar
with tons of feedback on how to improve it
zero iteration
zero communication
even the dev in a blue post going "we saw you want this but we dont agree"
indigo token
zero communication
how stretched thin is the team
I want to believe that its a manpower issue
glass mortar
so we know we arent writing forum posts for our mental health they never read
indigo token
that they simply dont have the time
jagged plover
WHAT IS HAPPENING
what is happening is people are incredibly disillusioned with how blizzard tunes outlaw
i don't think that's controversial or surprising
jagged plover
it's okay to be a hopecore guy but i don't understand being surprised that people are paranoid
vivid vessel
i mean i dont think they will aura tune the spec cuase of one overtunned trickster node
I DO NOT THINK THAT GUYS
REAL MESSAGE IM NOT UNDER MENACE RN
quaint wharf
except me im cool
is HO/putting ambush on bar a possibility with the builder crit changes?
glass mortar
i think if anything gets nerfed its just the talent because its unintentionally strong
vivid vessel
HAVING TO WRITE THIS
jagged plover
that and some hyperbole
glass mortar
even thats not guarenteed
they certainly wont aura nerf law because of it tho
thats very silly
gaunt phoenix
No, ho isnt happening
cinder relic
what is happening is people are incredibly disillusioned with how blizzard tunes...
The spec has had like, 2 bad tiers
Its really not that bad
vivid vessel
who said ho
vivid vessel
The spec has had like, 2 bad tiers
for real for real
cinder relic
This tier is an exceptionally shit melee tier, just straight up, theres like 2-3 playable melee DPS rn
And yes, ROGUE ON THE WHOLE, is ass rn
Its not just Outlaw, Sub and Sin are also barely playable rn
jagged plover
2 bad tiers but how many good tiers
glass mortar
2 bad tiers in a row is rough too
vivid vessel
2 bad tiers but how many good tiers
1 since i started wow
jagged plover
how many tiers where outlaw was the premier rogue spec
cinder relic
Depends how you define good tier?
vivid vessel
ahah
cinder relic
Good tier? genuinely most. Being the best rogue spec? Castle Nathria and Vault were the last ones
glass mortar
but its usually strong enough for the people who wanna play it
vivid vessel
Depends how you define good tier?
a tier where its the spec of choice
thats how i define a good tier for a spec
not even have to be good overall
just the spec of choice between the 3
glass mortar
if u want ur spec to be the excited omg look at those numbers we need to bring some of this tier that legit never happens for outlaw
karmic gust
a tier where you dont get kicked of a group bc of your spec
indigo token
Good tier? genuinely most. Being the best rogue spec? Castle Nathria and Vault w...
wasnt vault our last time being in a WF kill
glass mortar
maybe 2 times in the history of the whole game
fathom bramble
how many tiers where outlaw was the premier rogue spec
It has never been the premier rogue spec in raid across all bosses available. It is infrequently the best rogue spec on some individual fights though
indigo token
with broodkeeper
glass mortar
yes if tuning was just rng ud think it would happen more often then it does
fathom bramble
And is often nearly as good as the premier spec
jagged plover
obviously i hope sub and sin get tuned well too that doesn't cost me anything but they seem to be better off than outlaw 90% of the time
glass mortar
its obvious tuning is more then just rng
outlaws design is often what holds it back
idk how anyone could argue thats not the case
minor thorn
The fact Outlaw isn't good at low target cleave is absolutely criminal.
vivid vessel
its obvious tuning is more then just rng
or .. outlaw has some design issues ?
but we cant admit that
fathom bramble
Even now we are nearly as good as sub/sin in this ranged hellscape we live in
karmic gust
maybe tuning works like rtb and its rng based as well
vivid vessel
everytime i bring it up
devout garden
Always
devout garden
cinder relic
Nobody says that
vivid vessel
me when its unlucky tuning
cinder relic
I know you are a moron who cant understand words most of the time
cinder relic
But thats not what Ive ever said to you
mighty pivot
actual bullying
vivid vessel
mods
indigo token
The thing is, the design issues were sort of addressed with midnight but it brought new problems that arent being addressed
vivid vessel
Then quit making moronic smug comments towards me
i didnt name you tho
why do you feel targeted
cinder relic
I'm not stupid
vivid vessel
or are you !
jagged plover
feel like outlaw has to technically "overtuned" to be actually better tuned
jagged plover
so they always slap it down
vivid vessel
read it again
glass mortar
i mean overtuned is a weird metric
echo tapir
heres for hoping we get some cool fatebound buffs
indigo token
where trickster pulled ahead but felt really bad to play
fathom bramble
The thing is, the design issues were sort of addressed with midnight but it brou...
It just gave us back our old issues that the solutions for were originally somewhat problematic
gaunt phoenix
it's the same song and dance for several years, just be indifferent guy
glass mortar
we've had seasons where we were the highest simming spec in the game
u could argue that we are "overtuned" on those seasons
we are still never the main spec tho
indigo token
This time, its that we have to stand in ball mist
at least its not actively trying to kill us
cinder relic
U dont have to stand in it the entire time
gaunt phoenix
the smoke really shouldnt be much of a deal
cinder relic
the effect lingers, the uptime is high, and as long as you are in it, as it fades, you get full uptime of it
glass mortar
we need a fartlaw rogue emote for discord
fathom bramble
The only time you need to be in it is when it ends
glass mortar
@keen belfry
fathom bramble
This probably only matters in keys anyway since bosses don’t move that much
cinder relic
Its not ideal when you are running cross country but it should be fine
indigo token
the effect lingers, the uptime is high, and as long as you are in it, as it fade...
I'll take your word but I had read this
devout garden
i love that outlaw of all of the things gets fart cloud
vivid vessel
The thing is, the design issues were sort of addressed with midnight but it brou...
i disagree, tww rework actually tried to fix some issues,
outlaw being bad at low target count with pc
bf being hard to maintain and costing st with perma bf
adr maintained in between packs with uuh
even having more control over your dps with double vanish crackshot
midnight removed all of that and brought back all the old issues without fixing any, uptime is just as bad as tww also
cinder relic
and having to move out of it once, or twiceu will go from like, 50% uptime to like 45% or something
jagged plover
i mean it's kinda cool thematically i dont mind it at all
cinder relic
People wanted rogue visuals
gaunt phoenix
<:dracthyr_shrug:1002454156751151145> I'll take your word but I had read this
yea it sounds worse than it will be
jagged plover
i just think trickster will play like straight swampass
vivid vessel
yea it sounds worse than it will be
does it
ok i will show you guys
how i press adr
indigo token
i disagree, tww rework actually tried to fix some issues,
outlaw being bad at l...
unfortunately uhuh caused really degen strats and felt really bad in some dungeons and fights
vivid vessel
on most packs rn
indigo token
as fun as it was, it wasnt sustainable
glass mortar
as long as u can track the cloud duration somehow it prob wont be too bad in most cases...
glass mortar
but like holy fuk how to be excited for something we need to add this many caveats too
jagged plover
you da real outlaw main
glass mortar
"it probably wont be too bad, a thing needs to make u move alot for it to suck"
why does it even need conditions
does outlaw need shackles on its design
more of them
target capped
no low target cleave
no burst
no utility
jagged plover
no bitches
glass mortar
no passive DR
lucid sparrow
no happiness
vivid vessel
karmic gust
outlaw dev has to be a cbt enjoyer istg
glass mortar
why cant it just be somthing cool and new and fun thats all positives
glass mortar
surely we can get some stuff like that one day?
fathom bramble
I was thinking of this exact pull actually
When I said it would only matter in keys
vivid vessel
bro
its every pull
if you guys think
this talent
isnt complete garbage
you arent playing keys
every pull is like that
fathom bramble
It’s definitely a lot of pulls
jagged plover
yeah we're frost mages now lets go
glass mortar
just hold adr
vivid vessel
till 10s into pack ?
glass mortar
fathom bramble
Also trickster perma tricks incentivizes this kind of hitting early
rancid silo
but what if... it was made for the casual player
vivid vessel
its terrible
rancid silo
glass mortar
if it was made for casual players it shouldnt be 13% ahead of all the other options
fathom bramble
but what if... it was made for the casual player
Things can be designed to be good for both
karmic gust
but what if... it was made for the casual player
i don't think a casual would even pick this spec tbh
jagged plover
you can't convince me casuals even play outlaw honestly
karmic gust
but what if... it was made for the casual player
most ppl say its too hard to pickup
minor thorn
Casuals play ret
cinder relic
you can't convince me casuals even play outlaw honestly
By definition most of the ppl playing the spec are casuals
karmic gust
casuals go bm hunter or unholy dk and their 1 button aoe rotation
rancid silo
i dont think the average joe outlaw player is worried about moving 24/7 they arent doing push keys
fathom bramble
You
vivid vessel
ok good
inland meteor
trickster no quad grapple its actually over
glass mortar
oh god thats right
fathom bramble
It grants a 10 second buff to your character when you are in the cloud
cinder relic
The other thing is like, It sucks, you always want full uptime of the cloud, but like
fathom bramble
That buff conveys all the benefits
glass mortar
ur gunna need to use all ur mobility charges to get back to bad farts and to the mob
mighty pivot
they could've just made the cloud be around you instead
cinder relic
You can go from 50% uptime to 45% uptime
glass mortar
yes its poop from a butt
karmic gust
surely ppl are gonna want someone in their group who has to put a cloud on the ground and force the tank to stay near it so the dps isn't dogshit
glass mortar
but at least we got no real explanation from the devs and zero iteration on it after making more forum posts
vivid vessel
outlaw press adr legit first gcd
every fucking pack
and every fucking pack
needs to be moved around
for the first 5 to 10s
rancid silo
surely ppl are gonna want someone in their group who has to put a cloud on the g...
sentinel hunters same exact problem
cinder relic
sentinel hunters same exact problem
BM has the same issue too
glass mortar
sentinel hunters same exact problem
their circle follows the mobs now tho
vivid vessel
its a cooldown they press when pack is gathered
glass mortar
they figured that out halfway thru tww
dim parrot
Just wait till spec is tuned around the assumption you’re in the cloud 100% of the time it’s up
jagged plover
frost mage orb also follows mobs now
west ridge
bro did we just get rogue's version of fucking rune of power
glass mortar
no ur never holding ar thats a bit troll
ur just not getting full value from fart cloud
cinder relic
bro did we just get rogue's version of fucking rune of power
Kinda yeah
glass mortar
in those situations
cinder relic
But it has lingering, idr if rune had that by the end of its life
storm cave
bro did we just get rogue's version of fucking rune of power
No rune of the Gods
devout garden
late wolf
Do we know with these void cores we are getting. does it scale any hero / mythic item to the same lvl? or is ascended Ilvl diff for hero/myth? i only ask coz i really dont wanna have to delve and then hope for a vault heroic reward to push to mythic lvl xD
jagged plover
just another case of rogue getting design that they have already learned from and done better on other classes (fuck you haste tax!)
glass mortar
rune had a lingering effect at some point idr how much tho, you could shimmer out of it/back in to dodge stuff and not lose ur buff
but not nearly this degree
was probably like 2 or 3s
glass mortar
also true
craggy barn
ye
indigo token
I feel like this has happened a lot, ever since hero talents got introduced:
One tree spends the season on top
It changes in a patch to the other tree
Because no one was paying attention to the other tree, it plays way worse than the other one
takes a while for the gameplay to be better
mighty pivot
it's foreshadowing for ranged outlaw
inland meteor
gunslinger spec soon
worthy ice
guidon is actully good for outlaw?
jagged plover
how are we not one of the specs that gets 90% dps at range when we're the pistol guys
truly
make it make sense
craggy barn
they took it away from us
karmic gust
it's foreshadowing for ranged outlaw
outlaw main hand bis gonna be a gun next xpac
mighty pivot
rip those goofy ass ranged dispatches with crackshot
glass mortar
i mean i think outlaw could easily use an aspect of the eagle 1m cd thingy like survival has
that just turns u into a "ranged" dps for 15s
pure utility
fathom bramble
I could get behind us actually wearing a gun if the game had any support for it at all
craggy barn
we had that somewhat with crackshot gameplay
glass mortar
basically just lets ur normal rotational abilities be used from further away
fathom bramble
zero trnasmog, zero support in how weapons drop
inland meteor
basically just lets ur normal rotational abilities be used from further away
acrobatic strikes my beloved
proven ocean
<@1172550924519080006>
i paypal zac 10$ for that comment
craggy barn
preposterous zac
glass mortar
nah not that survival with aspect up is like 70% of an actual ranged dps
craggy barn
insane to say that
glass mortar
it was more back when i mained it in tww
proven ocean
everyone hates me here
glass mortar
ur autos matter more now
vivid vessel
i paypal zac 10$ for that comment
ross, watch for all mankind
inland meteor
is new season out
vivid vessel
is new season out
idk im only at season 3
inland meteor
its good shit
proven ocean
ross, watch for all mankind
?
proven ocean
its like
vivid vessel
one of the best tv show i have watched
vivid vessel
in a long time
inland meteor
proven ocean
oh
slim hare
zeross
storm cave
Ye outlaws uses guns but has less range then ret
proven ocean
damn 1019
slim hare
tv show is different from documentary
proven ocean
even older
fathom bramble
We use to be able to dps somewhat reliably from range for a short time period….
Then our crack was taken
placid ocean
Is anyone here excited for trickster in 12.0.5?
inland meteor
no
cinder relic
me!
vivid vessel
now idk if you will like it @proven ocean cause im heavely biased, my favorites movies are all moon thingies, i cry everytime i watch a rocket being send to space idk why
plain whale
I'm a lazy bitch and permanent tricks is nice.
cinder relic
Why
I like KS. and I like having an excuse to play the spec. Looks like a big buff
Perma tricks is also very nice qol
vivid vessel
Perma tricks is also very nice qol
that is true !
plain whale
They just need to bring back cannonball barrage and buff it to the moon and give us a raid buff and we're sitting pretty
fathom bramble
It’s also a large buff and that has some value when you set aside how it effects gameplay
placid ocean
I like KS. and I like having an excuse to play the spec. Looks like a big buff
The smoke seems annoying
cinder relic
The smoke seems annoying
It'll obviously be somehwat annoying but, at least in a raid setting, it'll almost never matter
plain whale
We've had worse annoyances. In Siege of Orgrimmar you'd get deep insight and have to send KS and pray.
cinder relic
In dungeons itll matter, somewhat frequently? But if you just adjust you can accomidate for it, or you can just lose a small amount of uptime on the buff. It has really insane uptime so going from 50% to 45% isn't like, the worst thing ever. Not ideal ofc but
karmic gust
can't help but imagine fartcloud in AA first pull
cinder relic
it technically only matters to be in the cloud when it ends
cinder relic
Since the linger effect is so long
gaunt phoenix
maybe you can natty ks before the first AR
vivid vessel
ye i guess you are right
you need to have a weak aura
to time when it will end
and grapple in it again
maybe its not as annoying
you just need weak aura
plain whale
#lesscomplex
hoary wave
holy shit this looks like a nightmare
cinder relic
Oh my god man LMFAO
slim hare
you need to have a weak aura
i hate that shit; they ruin WA and we can't track half of our buff correctly same on other classes its disguting
slim hare
even with spell event succesfull change?
vivid vessel
that isnt a change that affect player casted spells
mighty pivot
you just spawn a 10s timer on AR
vivid vessel
ye
glass mortar
^
slim hare
okay nice
glass mortar
its just a bit of a joke theres probably zero way to track the fart cloud duration in baseline UI
slim hare
yeah yeah
glass mortar
you almost certainly need a meekaura for it or something like that
vivid vessel
its just a bit of a joke theres probably zero way to track the fart cloud durati...
there isnt no
slim hare
its just a bit of a joke theres probably zero way to track the fart cloud durati...
ofc there isnt
glass mortar
me when i design new talents u need addons to properly play
vivid vessel
there is also no way to know rtb is bugged unless you use zac weak aura