Ryldd think how often it's the case that tanks literally just are the raid buff yk
#outlaw
cinder relic
random stirrup
yeah sucks to be those guys ngl
long barn
Sin rogues are the cake for M+
cinder relic
Like most of the time for tanks u draft comps around raid buffs being on tank
wintry solar
Been reading the whole conversation and rolled my eyes when Zac came
Was expecting more
wintry solar
miberation of foundermine
I made up so many words
cinder relic
To be clear
Rogue mid
Atro should be better
But either way I think shit happens, we had paladins and alleria, 2 unplayable melee fights. Followed by beloren being an absurdly tight dps check. Then lura, which had neither so rogue could slot back in for its raid buff
It sucks that things are the way they are rn, but I don't think it's some broader issue if that makes sense
random stirrup
There will always be a meta and with 20 slots you naturally have to let some of the remaining 19 specs or whatever get sat
wintry solar
Ain't no way this isnt just a freak accident
zinc briar
Since 1995...
random stirrup
It just seems suspicious that you consistently stack the same few classes and consistently sit some of the same few specs tier after tier
and it gets annoying after a while
cinder relic
Do u mean to use classes and specs interchangeable
Cuz they are very different in this context
Like this is the first Frost tier in literally forever
zinc briar
and wait for the end of the season where we are still worst
cinder relic
It's been 100 years since Frost mage has been playable
random stirrup
No because warlock, mage for example are consistently stacked, but some specs are left to the wayside (again outlaw, feral, surv)
quiet ore
It just seems suspicious that you consistently stack the same few classes and co...
Just give me tank rogue like in SoD so when they take me for raid buff I also get to fumble tank swaps
random stirrup
The mage/warlock spec of choice is variable, frost is rare like you said
cinder relic
Aff is also rare
random stirrup
Yes
cinder relic
But it has its moments
random stirrup
It has a strong niche
cinder relic
Amirdrasil was a feral tier
quiet ore
But it has its moments
Weirdly correlated with Malefic Rapture being available
formal knot
Just give me tank rogue like in SoD so when they take me for raid buff I also ge...
new idea: make rogue tank split into two characters, you get a splitscreen view and become the first tank literally designed to "solo" tank 
cinder relic
I swear it was good in absurek tier too
grim spear
So just delete those specs already, there’s really no point keeping them.
random stirrup
Wasn't amirdrassil the only end boss feral has played in rwf since legion
cinder relic
Probably
random stirrup
I also view warlock/mage specs all very similarly while surv/feral/outlaw are noticably different than their counterparts
frost being good is cool ig but its just another mage spec to me
the enemy
cinder relic
I feel Frost mage should go into the same bucket
grim spear
This game simply has too many specs, while the design space is far too limited, to the point where most specs don’t really have a purpose.
What’s even the point of having multiple specs for the same role within a class?
random stirrup
They get different playstyles and feels
They also get different cd timings, damage profiles, niches
quiet ore
I also view warlock/mage specs all very similarly while surv/feral/outlaw are no...
But unlike all the mages and the locks ol does have build lock-in with the spec-unique weapon requirement. So nobody plays law unless it's being broadcast as a meta pick well in advance
random stirrup
But unlike all the mages and the locks ol does have build lock-in with the spec-...
Yes they need to let outlaw use daggers mainhand or do something to fix it
it is a large issue
river wing
when even was that introduced
random stirrup
It's also a problem for feral and surv coincidentally 
grizzled heron
What’s even the point of having multiple specs for the same role within a class?
It's nice to have different ways to play the same thing
grim spear
this game is basically just a spreadsheet. That’s not the players’ choice, it’s something the designers gradually turned it into.
river wing
because I remember MoP outlaw being technically able to use SS with daggers
random stirrup
But at least for those two, you get free upgraded 2handers
rogue specifically doesn't want to upgrade offhand so you're burning crests if you want to offspec outlaw
past stump
Hello fellow outlaws. I’m always wondering what’s the correct thing to do when I end up with 5/6 CP. is it better to always spend on 7 ?
river wing
Hello fellow outlaws. I’m always wondering what’s the correct thing to do when I...
Dispatch is fine with 5, BtE wants 6+
quiet ore
I think that’s pretty obvious.
The inn in goldshire on Moon guard really does make it obvious
shell fossil
ye with some decisive tuning outlaw would probably feel pretty good
grim spear
Is there really any room left in this game for RP? Come on, it’s just a spreadsheet.
river wing
basically the game treats anything at 5 or better as a full finisher b/c you get 6/7 from talents
wintry solar
I've always thought pve was another form of pvp, just in a different way
shell fossil
surprise lol
shell fossil
wound poison on magisters terrance
past stump
basically the game treats anything at 5 or better as a full finisher b/c you get...
I see, what about supercharge ? Can you just spend 3-4 or is it better to build 7 then spend ?
shell fossil
rofl
grim spear
What’s the difference between Frost Mage and Fire Mage? You’re just casting fireballs in different colors.
cinder relic
this game is basically just a spreadsheet. That’s not the players’ choice, it’s ...
For mythic prog sure, but there also like 10 years of farm
cinder relic
What’s the difference between Frost Mage and Fire Mage? You’re just casting fire...
Also what
random stirrup
To be clear
Rogue mid
Atro should be better
But either way I think shit happen...
Really I've been annoyed about tuning bias for a while, both in terms of raid buffs, utility, defensives, damage, etc. and the rogue debacle this tier has made me exceptionally salty about it, especially when combined with the midnight class changes that I pretty much universally despise. Hopefully they buff atrophic (3% dr and 1.5% damage pls! reverse motw) so we don't have anything like this occur again. The game is fun though, having a blast ever since we got past dragons and alleria is sick
cinder relic
How are u talking about the game being a spreadsheet followed by a comment that dumb
U have to pick a side of the argument
The different specs do different things
river wing
I see, what about supercharge ? Can you just spend 3-4 or is it better to build ...
supercharge is better spent on BtE with full 7
cinder relic
Having 1 dps spec is worse than having 3 that do different things
mystic peak
Really I've been annoyed about tuning bias for a while, both in terms of raid bu...
bring back the haste buff
gaunt phoenix
you follow the same rules whether supercharge is active or not
dispatch 5+, bte 6+
vivid vessel
rogue specifically doesn't want to upgrade offhand so you're burning crests if y...
I burnt 60 gilded on outlaw weapon and still haven't dropped a dagger for sub so I have a hc off hand
Good waste of crests!
gaunt phoenix
you dont purposefully bte at 7 with supercharge active
cinder relic
Really I've been annoyed about tuning bias for a while, both in terms of raid bu...
Game feels so fucking good rn
grim spear
This game is basically a spreadsheet, so at least make it a meaningful one.
cinder relic
This game is basically a spreadsheet, so at least make it a meaningful one.
?
So that's why there's 3 specs
Sometimes! You want a different damage profile
vivid vessel
Not outlaw one tho
random stirrup
I burnt 60 gilded on outlaw weapon and still haven't dropped a dagger for sub so...
yep my 276 myth weapon from saladman worked great for me to play outlaw until I got a myth dagger from vault
cinder relic
That's why sometimes sin is better, or sub is better. Or why arms is better than fury
quaint delta
imagine the game being dictated by vibes
random stirrup
wouldve liked to upgrade it to maybe play outlaw on paladins but it is what it is
vivid vessel
That's why sometimes sin is better, or sub is better. Or why arms is better than...
Wtf didn't even mention outlaw gg
river wing
Sometimes! You want a different damage profile
to be entirely fair
outlaw's damage profile is kinda uh
lacking any real interactions with any design atm
wintry solar
Outlaw profile is a thing of the past
grim spear
If a row in the spreadsheet is meaningless, just delete it, instead of making the people using it guess every season which row they’re supposed to start from
wintry solar
Ancient and decrepit
vivid vessel
wouldve liked to upgrade it to maybe play outlaw on paladins but it is what it i...
I upgraded it to play outlaw on paladin
random stirrup
well at least that wouldve been the case regardless of the spec you picked
quaint delta
i upgrade my outlaw to paladin (we needed a tank)
river wing
amp is not very interactive for outlaw (not much to push during amp, logically), cleave is rather bad, sustained ST only really works when we're top-3 for pure ST, so what's the niche atm
cinder relic
amp is not very interactive for outlaw (not much to push during amp, logically),...
Rogue is undertuned
grim spear
So that's why there's 3 specs
There’s no need to have that many specs. Designers might as well just make one spec per class each season
gaunt phoenix
literally what are you typing
grim spear
what’s the point of making a bunch of useless ones
vivid vessel
Rogue is undertuned
He meant outlaw
cinder relic
Rogue is undertuned
gaunt phoenix
so we should have no specs we should just have Rogue Mage Hunter
cinder relic
It's not just outlaw
quiet ore
Game feels so fucking good rn
I agree. The feel is fine, streamlined, it's player perception/requirements that are rough, which needed a tighter balance earlier on in a tier to really hit, I think.
vivid vessel
Rogue is undertuned
True my bad it's just another one of these unlucky tuning tier where outlaw get bad tuning
river wing
There’s no need to have that many specs. Designers might as well just make one s...
that will drop the amount of dps specs in the game to like
13
grim spear
How are u talking about the game being a spreadsheet followed by a comment that ...
Isn’t it the designers who are dumb? They’re building a spreadsheet while pretending this is still an RPG
cinder relic
Isn’t it the designers who are dumb? They’re building a spreadsheet while preten...
You are the dumb one
Sorry!
vivid vessel
Gg!
river wing
and with how class flavour has been fucked since forever, that means there's like 1.5 interesting classes to play if you don't like magic men
vivid vessel
Guy 1 : aohajin 0
stuck sparrow
its the playerbase who makes it a spreadsheet
thinking 1% dps differences between a spec make it required to play
cinder relic
Theres a reason ppl swap dps specs on a lot of tiers
From 1 mage spec, rogue spec, warlock spec to another
grim spear
You are the dumb one
Either way, I’m never the one who starts Ad hominem
vivid vessel
1 rogue spec to another but never outlaw !
cinder relic
There's also this foreign concept in the game. It's called "fun"
Later in the Tier, when the raid is easy, you can play any spec u want
stuck sparrow
pretty sure lok might kill cosmos this week on outlaw
cinder relic
And do all the content in the game with it
stuck sparrow
cinder relic
Because u find the playstyle fun
vivid vessel
pretty sure lok might kill cosmos this week on outlaw
Prolly
You could also kill the boss with 3 tanks btw
stuck sparrow
well idk his guild generally has good pull counts
vivid vessel
Just saying
grim spear
Even just talking about playstyle, is Outlaw actually fun right now?
vivid vessel
It is
grim spear
You’ve got to be kidding me
cinder relic
I think it's fun af
inland meteor
Even just talking about playstyle, is Outlaw actually fun right now?
ye i like it
random stirrup
and they're already at 50
p3 prog is probably the hardest part by far
gaunt phoenix
"the designers are dumb"
"no u"
"wtf i would never call someone that"
grim spear
random stirrup
and you can limp your way into a p3 pull without really executing p2 correctly
quiet ore
You could also kill the boss with 3 tanks btw
I was wondering if people were gonna start doing this - seems like it makes p1 easy to heal
stuck sparrow
i mean when has outlaw actually been objectively better
its been a fun factor forever
cinder relic
i mean when has outlaw actually been objectively better
Castle nathria
vivid vessel
Outlaw rogue players when they discover opinions
I do think your opinion is wrong
stuck sparrow
true
vivid vessel
Checkmate
cinder relic
Vault of the incarnate
jolly geyser
I dont agree with that opinion Guy, the discover one
vivid vessel
Castle nathria
Ye only have to go back 10 years in time
river wing
outlaw is fun
I just wish it flowed a little bit better, was tuned stronger and had an actual niche for damage profiles
but honestly from my experience since TWW S1 it's a general rogue problem of getting attention last and least
cinder relic
Ye only have to go back 10 years in time
Vault
grim spear
"the designers are dumb"
"no u"
"wtf i would never call someone that"
it's not me using that word first
vivid vessel
Vault
Fake news by the time I got to last boss outlaw was already nerfed
Doesn't count in my book
Get owned noob
inland meteor
who said dumb first riveting discussion
inland meteor
the d word
quaint delta
i, for one, am happy that RTB is no longer stupid
vivid vessel
stuck sparrow
7x
glass mortar
design issue
outlaw still scaled like poop back then
so if we were tuned to be strong
we were redonk on herioc week
unluck
vivid vessel
It's fine guys
With current outlaw design
We might get an outlaw tier
Every 10 year
If you just keep playing
At some point
You will get to it
I have been playing for more than 5 years now I think
So it's coming soon
glass mortar
im gunna be honest i think id be satisfied with a rogue tier at all
feels like its been a minute
vivid vessel
I will be here to live it !
glass mortar
like we've had tiers where 1 or 2 specs were decent
when was the last time any raid team was like holy fuk we need 3-4 rogues for this fight tho
vivid vessel
Idk sub is always thanos on prog
river wing
when was the last time any raid team was like holy fuk we need 3-4 rogues for th...
bfa
quiet ore
I will be here to live it !
Does the rogue in fellowship being meta count as an outlaw tier?
vivid vessel
Can be as bad as you want
quaint delta
when was the last time any raid team was like holy fuk we need 3-4 rogues for th...
3-4 -> 1
vivid vessel
Does the rogue in fellowship being meta count as an outlaw tier?
The rogue in fellowship is a mix between assa and sub
Clearly doesn't count
shell fossil
how would they even buff outlaw single target though
past stump
Idk sub is always thanos on prog
Actually swapped to sub during the early season and it’s so fucking easy and does 2x dmg as outlaw
Kinda sad
river wing
how would they even buff outlaw single target though
wym
vivid vessel
Gg!
shell fossil
im serious
river wing
outlaw's ST is the most fucking fragile damage approach in the game
give a boss regular 5-10s downtimes and tuning will not matter
minor thorn
Any buff to ST is also a buff to aoe unless you nerf BF with the buff.
quiet ore
how would they even buff outlaw single target though
Buff literally anything other than br or bf and then nerf bf cleave again
vivid vessel
What
cinder relic
It's been a lot of sub tiers in a row but depending on how slow u prog, sin ends up getting buffed to be better
past stump
What if they slightly buffed restless blades when you’re hitting in ST
cinder relic
Even in undermine, it was basically a sin tier
vivid vessel
Are we gonna act like outlaw can't handle a 5% aura without a bf nerf
Are we playing the same video game
Clearly we aren't
glass mortar
zac we are perfection u dont understand
vivid vessel
You guys are doing housing
glass mortar
our aoe is PERFECTLY tuned
river wing
legit had a lot of fun in LoU as sin yeah
glass mortar
the standard by which all specs draw
quiet ore
Are we gonna act like outlaw can't handle a 5% aura without a bf nerf
They asked! Blizz simply already demonstrated the answer
cinder relic
You guys are doing housing
minor thorn
Tree
quaint delta
the wishing tree, where guy goes to pray that bliz buffs rog
quiet ore
I need grander atriums for my FFXIV style jumping puzzle house
gaunt phoenix
i wish there was creative mode housing where you have infinite everything
i cba to collect shit
river wing
the wishing tree, where guy goes to pray that bliz buffs rog
so that's what the problem is
no light, small plot, no space to grow
which makes it a bonsai so blizz only buffs sub because it's the weeb-er rogue
cinder relic
i wish there was creative mode housing where you have infinite everything
On one hand I kinda like collecting shit and adding purpose to the old world
On the other hand, flying to outland to get 1 lever to finish a build is a bit annoying
gaunt phoenix
yea i get the appeal
quiet ore
On the other hand, flying to outland to get 1 lever to finish a build is a bit a...
That's what the mage alt is for
shell fossil
currently redoing this it's very relaxing
did just get the legion thunderfury mog for the uncrowned stuff also lol
cinder relic
I thought it was super cool when they first added housing that literally every decor vendor had like 30 people standing by it
Lol
vivid vessel
I'm just annoyed there is a decor to roll off on every end of dungeon and boss
Leave me alone
gaunt phoenix
imo decor giving purpose to old rep stuff is good. but needing 30 billion of old currency shit is meh
past stump
Don’t you want this magnificent magister bookshelf ?
quiet ore
Don’t you want this magnificent magister bookshelf ?
Yeah, I need 20
jolly geyser
then just pass,wdym
quiet ore
For the library
jolly geyser
good heavens
past stump
No honestly I get that
gaunt phoenix
maybe there is an auto pass addon
minor thorn
Auto need addon 
jolly geyser
dunno what I press on the stuff,might be some of the 3
glass mortar
On one hand I kinda like collecting shit and adding purpose to the old world
it shoulda just been a mix of both
fly around all the old areas buying new furniture and stuff
then once u have it unlocked u can always buy more from a vendor
near ur house or something
cinder relic
imo decor giving purpose to old rep stuff is good. but needing 30 billion of old...
Yeah thankfully I just have a billion order resources from every expac 
quiet ore
fly around all the old areas buying new furniture and stuff
Buying one of everything just for house xp and being forced to have the decor storage box of a serial hoarder just because I wanted a medium sized exterior
jolly geyser
btw check guild work orders lads, I provided most of the mats for 285 1h ago
gaunt phoenix
maybe the first purchase should cost war resources or whatnot and subsequent purchases are discounted/free
quiet ore
maybe the first purchase should cost war resources or whatnot and subsequent pur...
Or cost gold, game needs more gold sinks, always
jolly geyser
mythic guilds need to pay 10mill gold per char to do splits
quiet ore
mythic guilds need to pay 10mill gold per char to do splits
Yeah. But only ah fee % for the BoEs is deleted, rather than all of it, good, but need more
jolly geyser
random stirrup
Or cost gold, game needs more gold sinks, always
im so broke cuh
early expansion got me using up all my reserves need sales to get going again
quiet ore
early expansion got me using up all my reserves need sales to get going again
I've probably lost 1m gold so far this season, and I've only trained two professions. Blizz must be on banning the gatherer bots this xpat
ancient cobalt
im up 5 mil
gaunt phoenix
slrp
ancient cobalt
slrp
jolly geyser
I dropped just below 8mill on rogue,smh
random stirrup
I've probably lost 1m gold so far this season, and I've only trained two profess...
I always do most professions early, usually I make my money back doing orders and end up turning a profit but had no time this tier. Probably out around 1-1.5M as well.
mystic peak
I haven't even tried to make money, leveled every prof, almost to cap and I'm 200k up
random stirrup
No boe money 
quiet ore
I always do most professions early, usually I make my money back doing orders an...
I don't have the patience to afk in a city and hawk my wares anymore - just not a feel good use of time
quiet ore
I haven't even tried to make money, leveled every prof, almost to cap and I'm 20...
I have burned a LOT of money re-enchanting gear
mystic peak
Wild that I think skinning has been my best low effort money maker
random stirrup
It was incredibly profitable when I was trying to pug title back when I was an idiot who thought that was a good use of time. A whole lot of time spent afk in valdrakken apping to keys so I could collect all the orders
quiet ore
Wild that I think skinning has been my best low effort money maker
Yeah, my friends agree
cinder relic
With housing I feel like profession's are just an infinite money glitch
random stirrup
The abundance system to get purple prof gear seems insanely cringe
multiple weeks of doing it over and over
gaunt phoenix
something about the abundance event is about as boring as it gets
frail veldt
I havent tried it but have been told only bad things
gaunt phoenix
it's just kill shit... idk
frail veldt
like that escort world event quest in the dream area in DF?
where you just follow tree
and kill mobs that spawn
gaunt phoenix
No it just puts you in a little zone where you have 3 minutes to kill shit
frail veldt
oh weird
random stirrup
the best time i had in abundance was prenerf where we had like 2 guardian druids that killed so many things at once the whole group just stacked in the drop zone and perma deposited without ever hitting 0 in bags
actually doing the event is so much worse
cinder relic
The fact that I'm paying 25k for random housing decor is a crime
It just has to be an infinite money glitch
gaunt phoenix
like if we're going to just kill shit, i'd rather be put in a vehicle and mow over mobs, that's entertaining
random stirrup
even just pulling things as rogue sucks
gaunt phoenix
ye lmao
dawn tundra
Got two of my BiS Trinkets and scraped by a 9 Pit Of Saron. I'm feeling alright.
cinder relic
Does anybody know if the darkway or parthelions plaza will ever be bountiful
limpid isle
Does anybody know if the darkway or parthelions plaza will ever be bountiful
they have been. darkway was bountiful just the other day.
cinder relic
Gotcha
Ive been working on worldsoul done or whatever
hardstuck on some of the timegated stuff
so just working on it now to make this expacs metaachivement easier
ancient cobalt
The fact that I'm paying 25k for random housing decor is a crime
they sell slow af for me
i think our server stingy af
near rock
trills not on our server cuh
tough ridge
!tricks
ornate heathBOT
wintry solar
@cinder relic did you do anything to add grass in a plot like this?
tiny maple
Nice. I got the plume from the mythic weekly quest.
wintry solar
sick, gg
cinder relic
<@96834520417828864> did you do anything to add grass in a plot like this?
wdym
wide flare
why is dispatch used at 5cp as fatebound, is it just because of Delivered Doom?
to flip more coins?
cinder relic
Yeah
wide flare
so fliping more coins has more impact than the higher chance of hiding bullets
but 60% vs 84% seems like it would matter more for more BTE resets
i guess we can trust the sims 
less cp wastage is prob the difference too
frail veldt
why is dispatch used at 5cp as fatebound, is it just because of Delivered Doom?
also wastes less cps
yeah
gaunt phoenix
half of dispatch damage is also scoundrel strike
frail veldt
aaah which doesnt scale with cp
gaunt phoenix
which is 5cp and doesnt scale with 6-7
it's just something that happens to work out
it's not like you are at 5cp every time, just if you land at 5 cps, you dispatch
the ss/ps builder optimization tries to avoid landing at 5cps
ripe ibex
6-7
weary goblet
jolly geyser
send homelander after this guy
junior folio
the ss/ps builder optimization tries to avoid landing at 5cps
I love doing this, ss @ 1cp with stage 2 rtb
gaunt phoenix
red zinc
solo do you think outlaw is a cia psyop designed to figure out how long people will hang onto something that is slowly decaying
void canopy
solo where can i find a new way to use TOT witouth weakauras?
clear tulip
@near rock was double ace the move for vanguard
near rock
I guess 
felt fine but took some getting used to since sometimes you don't wanna use a builder after it procs
I lowrolled kinda hard on our kill pull
on a normal pull I'm usually ending with 155k dps
gaunt phoenix
as far as i can tell 2 ace should be mildly ahead on vanguard
but dancing is better safeguard against low rolling
near rock
here's a good pull with 30% double trouble/one of a kind https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/8tYvDAnzkLXTHMFj?fight=4&type=damage-done
clear tulip
im the king of low rolling. on dbl dragons, i went from soak > hook in AR + cds on the voidorbs > get frontal > hook away, feared full duration > boss dies
clear tulip
as far as i can tell 2 ace should be mildly ahead on vanguard
yeah i simmed my profile last night and both were similar so i was going to switch between the two tonight and see which has better vibes
junior folio
How do you guys play out the crown fight? I can't seem to play it properly, do you guys pad on first adds or play normal st build? Do you AR 3 times on P1 or hold the last for alleria on P2?
tame flower
Dunno how to feel about outlaw rogue dps in raids 😂
near rock
How do you guys play out the crown fight? I can't seem to play it properly, do y...
mythic?
junior folio
On heroic
near rock
I forgot what heroic looks like sorry 
junior folio
You don't speak broke xD
near rock
prob just play your ST build since the adds die instantly on heroic
junior folio
Fair enough, I wanted to parse so my guildies believe I'm actually good
near rock
You still run deft and can get some pad out but I don't think you'll be able to pad really at all since the adds will evaporate
focus on getting as much dmg in when the big adds in p1 have giga stacks
junior folio
That's true, I dropped deft because I thought it would be useless but playing without it felt horrible too
Gotcha ty
tame flower
what talents are you guys running in raid? is wowhead like ok or are there better out there
vapid sundial
near rock
That's true, I dropped deft because I thought it would be useless but playing wi...
deft competes with stam or movespeed so in any fight that has even a second of blade flurry usage you should have it
vapid sundial
i think guy does wowhead
near rock
and no prob
vapid sundial
so its probably fine too
gentle sky
is there any good way to mark targets now days ?
quasi verge
anyone here using m33kauras
final pagoda
is there any good reason why I can't compare law vs sin vs sub sims to decide what spec would do most dmg?
I remember in DF/TWW law sims were considered higher bc playing perfectly as sim was almost impossible
but in midnight I don't see any good reasons why they are uncomparable
gaunt phoenix
Should be fine for like vorascious
final pagoda
what about dslice?
gaunt phoenix
Dslice is super arbitrary aoe
It's a 6 minute boss+trash
If you were to do the exact events of dslice, it would be accurate enough
final pagoda
not really to predict how much dmg I'd do in m+, but to decide which spec (based on my stats) I should use in m+
law dslice is simming higher than assa for me, that's why I am asking
mighty pivot
you can't compare different specs
only compare between the same specs
to find gear etc
final pagoda
why?
magic steppe
hey im looking for some sound to play when i get 5 cb point does anyone got a nice sound for that ?
gaunt phoenix
Outlaw is good at slice cause the packs are short and it has virtually 0 needed logic for the rotation to be forward thinking
craggy barn
like sims comparing vs specs is hard because just look at practical data
sin sims the lowest in ST
and generally beats outlaw and sub in boss damage
final pagoda
ok I get it that law is especially good in how dslice sims are configured
but isn't dslice the closest we have for m+?
final pagoda
like sims comparing vs specs is hard because just look at practical data
sin sim...
yep and I am not sure why is that (Im assuming all the APLs are very well optimized at this point)
gaunt phoenix
No you can do dungeonroute
craggy barn
imo if ur struggling to decide what spec to play, and have the means to try them all out, just try them out a bit in like 12-14s
and see what feels more comfy
gaunt phoenix
But i'm not sure how the sin and sub APLs will respond to dungeonroute like you would in game
While outlaw doesnt care
final pagoda
I know all of them, it's just a matter of regearing
cinder relic
kill tmers matter a lot for these specs
and unless ur forcing a predicted timer its never going to be 100% accurate
Like sin gets significantly better if you get a CD, in execute, vs not
Same goes for if sub gets an extra CD based on timer
craggy barn
just pick between sub and outlaw, and then u can always play sin as longa s u ahve 2 dagers
hell, if u pic sub, u can prety much just use the exact same items
both can use cringe box
gaunt phoenix
You just zoom
I think cooldown specs are too messy to compare anything beyond patchwerk
final pagoda
ill just try to do a few 14s as sin I guess
I can't believe law does more dmg in m+ than sin atm
I was wondering if it's just my gear
craggy barn
i play all 3
and i dont have to change my gear all that much
i just switch to sin if my comp ends up needing prio damage burst
cinder relic
Sin is shit in keys outside of like, actual pushing keys
Takes too long to ramp and setup shit
cinder relic
Prio doesnt matter in a 12, or a 13 either
craggy barn
at least ive been fine in 14+ when i swap sin
final pagoda
yep I am talking 16-17s
craggy barn
outlaw just feels too comp dependent at a certain point
cinder relic
even still I think its lowkey a larp spec
I dont push keys but idk
I think sin is larp
solar iron
sin was fine in my 35 nexus 10s
final pagoda
I think sin is larp
wdym?
final pagoda
like when this is the comp u are in u kinda just play sin
what comp u want as sin? this looks good for law imo
craggy barn
it was kinda meh on law because these two bozos just sucked at prio damage
cinder relic
guy is a sin hater
I like sin
craggy barn
sin can kinda play with whatever imo
all rog wants shaman but everyone wants a shaman bc skyfury op
if we were a full phys comp i woulda played outlaw, but we odnt have a dedicated warrior pusher and that druid swapped off feral bc she hates midnight feral
and our resto sham fucking hates pushing keys
sadge
craggy barn
i usually force law tho
vivid vessel
miles ahead
vivid vessel
you need high keys tho
vapid sundial
+
craggy barn
who
vapid sundial
the monk
vivid vessel
but htat has always been the case
vivid vessel
thigns die too fast for sin cds in low keys
you need to get in 19s 20s rn
to do sin
and then for some reason you are thanos
doing 1mil dps every pack
river wing
also lads
anyone have any experience with higher-ping play on outlaw? like my default is 110 ms and it doesn't really go below that, idk if that's bad
light kernel
guys is it high iq play to pug only 2 bosses for bigger chances of gaze in vault rather than 3 bosses in mythic
craggy barn
as long as its consistent and ur spell queue isnt giga low
should be fine
if ur at like 250ms or something idk play sin, u get to wait betwen gcds the normal amount ud want to wait for pooling anyways pepw
cinder relic
spec got buffed btw
It is shit in like, normal ppl keys tbf
craggy barn
idk guy theres the giga omega sudden demise build 🙂
cinder relic
like that spec is mega cosmetic in poop keys
wintry solar
What keys?
light kernel
for logging archon app or is there only wlogs uploader cant find it
craggy barn
sin feels fine when no one else does damage in those keys
but when u are in a full group and not a pug
its kinda bleh
sin starts feeling like a spec at 15+ imo
and giga blasts at r1 keys
indigo token
homework keys you mean
craggy barn
nah, homework keys are different
haughty wigeon
thus is the nature of dot specs
craggy barn
yuh
cinder relic
I mean with sudden demise existing before it felt like, alright in keys
in the lower keys that is
craggy barn
tww s3 sd build was nice before actual push
its kinda funny how sin and law lost build diversity
ho vs kir and bleed vs poison
river wing
bc nobody bothered to maintain a second build as a working one
vivid vessel
its kinda funny how sin and law lost build diversity
new dev
he is very smart
and knows better
than old dev
he made the spec better !
coral wyvern
we dont have a normal defensives anymore? and there are any ways to dispell this week afix by myself?
river wing
we dont have a normal defensives anymore? and there are any ways to dispell this...
CloS
your only real defensive that is usable most of the time is Feint with Elusiveness talented
river wing
can you cloak each one? or nah
nah it's 45 seconds between casts
arctic hollow
You can Vanish this week's afix now
It has a slow element removed by root dispels
shadowmeld doesnt work though
lean ferry
Does cdm sound alert not work for buffs that stack like opportunity? Doesnt play a sound when i gain 6 stacks.
coral wyvern
You can Vanish this week's afix now
nice, do you need any talent or is just base kit?
keen belfry
@buoyant stratus 18 seat yeah
coral wyvern
i guess cloak, vanish, healer, repeat is the way
lean ferry
its only on buff gained
Is there anything i can do or maybe an addon that could help with that?
keen belfry
Is there anything i can do or maybe an addon that could help with that?
not really
buoyant stratus
<@141665120764952576> 18 seat yeah
XD
river wing
nice, do you need any talent or is just base kit?
baseline
quaint mauve
@keen belfry look at this geek next to me
keen belfry
banger
vale warren
how many sparks am i meant to have this week
craggy barn
5
leaden sonnet
he made the spec better !
They saw how beloved the haste cap was for outlaw and decided to add it to sub as well
Thanks guys
glass mortar
ok at least ur haste cap doesnt make ur baseline gameplay 💩 tho
our major CD literally does nothing if u dont have haste or late talent tree talents btw
it gives u 20% auto attack speed and energy u cant spend (because ur gcd isnt reduced)
indigo token
i know people say
glass mortar
its very silly to me the ways they try to make haste real for us
river wing
is it not 6
seven
indigo token
man the gearing in ff is so bad wows is better
leaden sonnet
I mean everything gets misaligned as hell without any haste, but yeah it's not as bad as it is on outlaw
indigo token
but is it really
glass mortar
the WW and feral devs did not struggle this much
indigo token
i hate having to target farm dungeons for this shit
river wing
6 from weeklies, 1 more from world tour
glass mortar
rogue guy is lost in the sauce
glass mortar
literally all it took was making haste double dip ur FoF and scale ur RSK
blizzard be like "i better remove the baseline functionality of ur major cd and make ur gameplay dogshit if u dont have any"
u wanted stat scaling didnt u??????
river wing
imagine if haste idk, increased opp chance or smth
...actually I just don't have any idea what haste could do for us normally
glass mortar
remove menacing rush or change it
remove 20% attack speed on ADR
this thing is a leftover from wotlk
change it to 20% flat haste so adr is fufilling its own haste requirement for gcd
make it so menacing scales ur damage based on haste
50% effective outside AR, 100% during ar
coral wyvern
as a outlaw some stat should be a "luck" stat, wich would increase the chance of rolling good results in RTB
river wing
change it to 20% flat haste so adr is fufilling its own haste requirement for gc...
bro
they could just
do the MoP thing
and have AR remove GCD directly
like fuck
glass mortar
u mean
coral wyvern
i think haste shouldnt be it, but it strike me as mastery
river wing
I've been poking at MoP classic rogue
and it feels as though it had more stuff figured out than current rogue
which is insane tbh
glass mortar
well no the thing they did with ar is just dumb as hell
it has always provided its own gcd reduction
they removed it to make u take haste to get it back in TWW
jolly geyser
mop had a lot of stuff
glass mortar
if u start a new rogue with no real gear or piss stats AR as a cd does basically nothing
its a banger or
20% more white hit speed
sit at full energy bar the whole time
coral wyvern
Mastery: Cheater Gambler
Increase every proc chance by % (opp, RTB better rolls, BtE reset)
current mastery is kinda eh
i dont get it
glass mortar
mastery doesnt need to be interesting tho and any mastery like that would make it massively effect gameplay leading to the exact issue haste causes rn
now you need X% mastery to have a nice rotation
river wing
they removed it to make u take haste to get it back in TWW
this is legit what I feel when I look at our talents
like 80% of what we get is something that was once baseline
and that's not like other classes' I've played, it's legit only rogue it feels like
glass mortar
also its scaling would need to be awful or you might hit 100% and have a stat useless after that
our mastery should just be old sword mastery
coral wyvern
is kinda how the ele mastery is handled, ig?
glass mortar
all attacks have a chance to cause an offhand attack for x% (scaling with mastery) if the initial attacks damage
river wing
all attacks have a chance to cause an offhand attack for x% (scaling with master...
uh it's exactly that already no?
coral wyvern
all attacks have a chance to cause an offhand attack for x% (scaling with master...
isnt it just the current one?
glass mortar
kinda but not really
the issue with current mastery is it doesnt scale with stuff that scales your abilities
tier set that buffs any of ur abilities damage?
mastery uneffected
temporary damage amp from a buff or talent or effect?
mastery unimpacted
if its reflecting x% of the base spell then its naturally scaling with all these things like any normal mastery in the game
most masteries are boring and i dont think they need to try to make our stat "interesting" id just prefer it not be shit
and MGs real big design flaw imo is what i just mentioned
any effects that increase the damage ratio of certain abilities in ur rotation reduce the value of mastery because its its own static damage effect that is only impacted by your attack speed and how much mastery u have
river wing
eh, maybe
but I agree that trying to make it "interesting" will likely just make it mandatory to X%
glass mortar
i really would prefer they focus on haste
because the ways they make us take haste right now are toxic
and honestly, law probably should be the haste rogue spec?
combat was a long time ago on and off
we are the fastest attacker of the rogue specs
river wing
ngl I am in general very miffed about the fact that rogue, the most default "fast striker" archetype
has only one fast-paced spec
glass mortar
well rogues original design and the design of energy was as the fast but no endurance fighter
river wing
with two specs that are "slow by design" and "bursty but slow out of burst which is like 50% of the time" instead
glass mortar
like an assassin, you open and you can dump your whole resource bar and cast 5 abilities faster then anyone else in the game (back in vanilla)
cause u have a baseline 1s gcd
but u run out of steam
river wing
well rogues original design and the design of energy was as the fast but no endu...
no
Rogue's original design was actually ultimate endurance
glass mortar
that was a loooooooong time ago tho
desert tendon
riposte rogue
river wing
it had infinite resources in a game that expected everyone to run out of mana in three minutes of sustained casting
desert tendon
glass mortar
ok but warriors existed
river wing
and the only other resource, Rage, was very slow until endgame also
glass mortar
sure
its slow but steady
ours is fast but runs out instantly then u afk
that was the design
river wing
naw
glass mortar
i mean it literally was tho
river wing
you get to press a button every couple seconds, which is way more than warrior could say, and casters would run out
desert tendon
river wing
just pressing 5 sinister strike, one every 6s
every 4s
and like
combat got energy stuff very quickly
combat potency already sped it up quite a bit, and that was TBC, i.e. the time where the same pattern held
glass mortar
sure combat was always the fast rogue spec
for sin and sub tho it was always like... dump ur energy bar in a bunch of abilities real quick, then ur gameplay slows down drastically for awhile
while other specs just kept the same speed for most of the fight
river wing
assa didn't have design until TBC in general
sub had no design until WotLK IMO
desert tendon
assa design was hemorragge
glass mortar
sin was yea very wonky
river wing
assa design was hemorragge
hemo was sub
desert tendon
oh was it
river wing
ye
desert tendon
what was assa point then?
river wing
nothing much
desert tendon
It s been couple decades
river wing
envenom in tbc
river wing
in vanilla, literally "I guess your backstab is a bit better and your poisons are usable"
glass mortar
sin was like the poison spec but poisons werent fleshed out enough to be a real spec
it had a bunch of cost efficiency things and extra energy too
elder sonnet
i miss the castle nathria tier.. when it was our moment for once
river wing
like I legit feel that Rogue was the class that got the talent system's introduction the worst because they had the least distinction beforehand, all their abilities were just Rogue
desert tendon
couldnt we say the same about war?
river wing
no
glass mortar
warrior having a whole other role it can do gave them more distinction in their talent trees for sure
desert tendon
i miss the castle nathria tier.. when it was our moment for once
you mean when outlaw sucked, sub was useless, and assa unplayable until 9.0.5 patch?
river wing
at the very least prot had an identity of its own, and frankly fury/arms were quite decently separated also
river wing
but also I need to remind you
vanilla talent system is a quick hack over a previous levelling system, introduced only a few months before release
and it basically converted a free-learning system into D2 talents
which is why Rogue kinda got shafted because it didn't have enough stuff for 3 really distinct specs, it instead had lots of standalone stuff like "better poisons" and "better stealth"
whereas pretty much everyone had much more distinction (probably the second worst would be hunter, and both surv/bm ended up pretty messy in vanilla too)
elder sonnet
we were pretty good in CN tho?
desert tendon
were we?
elder sonnet
used to watch jpc go ham in keys that tier
desert tendon
oh in keys
elder sonnet
yeah not the raid hahah
static crescent
where patch notes
desert tendon
rogue wasnt the best but the meta wasnt super fotm yet and so jpc, ramfam, just to say 2 of them, were able to express themselves
static crescent
or are we done for the season
glass mortar
its the best its ever been. its perfect
thats why every single time they adjust one of our ST values they compensate with an aoe nerf or buff to try to leave it unchanged
good stuff mathers 
keep it up
desert tendon
in S1 SL you shouldnt play anything else but outlaw
assa was unplayable above 1 target, 1 target was already but unplayable but anyways. And sub was litterally a cc bot that couldnt do cc proprely
elder sonnet
we had that 4 seconds crit legendary power
with killing spree combo
that was good stuff
desert tendon
that was good stuff
that was so bad but it was doing numbers
i remember soloing the 1st big room in plaguefall with evasion and main gauche
elder sonnet
shame how they gutted ks
desert tendon
And then df droped, and fotm exodia became more than a thing. Dont get me wrong, people were already rerolling to the best spec. But since the aug incident + way easier time to reroll, every seasons look like that
glass shard
i think i hit double digit wr on the mickey mouse spec but i need hte screenshot
(m+)
glass shard
And then df droped, and fotm exodia became more than a thing. Dont get me wrong,...
the game is always fun when godcomp is meta
elder sonnet
do we have the same rogue dev now that was tuning outlaw in shadowlands?
no way right?
glass shard
we have a dev?
desert tendon
no
glass shard
xdd
elder sonnet
reassigned to the intern
desert tendon
We had Realz during df who came a lot and took a lot of feedback to rework the class. That's why we got so good in df rework. All we know is that he was moved to another place and we dont know who s taking care of us
elder sonnet
gonna unsub from his twitch
desert tendon
gonna unsub from his twitch
i can ban you from his if you want, so you dont get any temptation
buoyant cosmos
We had Realz during df who came a lot and took a lot of feedback to rework the c...
I heard he was the DH lead dev now, could just be yap though
desert tendon
well he was kinda working on dh rogue evoker iirc, i have no clue what is he doing now
jolly geyser
he was recently in some twitch chat
desert tendon
heard he wasnt working on specs / class but it's just someone who knows someone who knows someone who s friend with the uncle of the grandpa of someone
jolly geyser
forgot what people asked him
buoyant cosmos
he was recently in some twitch chat
We need to make a realz tracker
desert tendon
yea he was seen in many chats
buoyant cosmos
I'm always surprised when I hear that X class doesn't have a lead developer
desert tendon
Looking at how blizzard lay down people and are moving toward AI, i wouldnt be suprised. But again, what do i know, what is true what isnt, noone knows
if you ask chatgpt how to play rogue, no wonder the class is falling apart
elder sonnet
ah so it's AI that keeps giving us these 4% aura buffs
jolly geyser
We need to make a realz tracker
no,he doesnt have anything to do with outlaw
buoyant cosmos
ah so it's AI that keeps giving us these 4% aura buffs
AI is making a mess of a lot of the armor rigging too
buoyant cosmos
no,he doesnt have anything to do with outlaw
Maybe if we all bother him he'll totally come back
/s
mystic berry
They probably are using ai assisted metrics now
next wedge
im a metric
mystic berry
After the pruning
buoyant cosmos
zac is also metric
next wedge
i cant believe zac ruined my life
final pagoda
zac ruined rogues forever
I think they just give rogues to new junior game designers
as an apprenticeship
and after they move on
a class played by nobody, not big consequences if they fuck up
cinder relic
so then why was realz on both DH and rouge
Doesn't really line up with that fanfiction
final pagoda
it was a joke
btw wasn't realz relatively new in the company?
as a designer at least
cinder relic
iduno
magic shuttle
he designed stuff in hs before
midnight granite
For fun I just asked chatgpt what talents I should take as an outlaw rogue
It told me to take acrobatic strikes
cinder relic
for fun yhou ask AI questions?
midnight granite
Ye
It said I could import the build
BQQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQSSiEJJJJJJJJJJJJRikEAAAAAAQSSSA
ashen void
X
eternal hound
https://x.com/Jonas_Ceika/status/2042445078417834043
Sounds like ai
vivid vessel
has youtube finally managed to brick ad blockers
buoyant cosmos
I haven't had a problem with brave on PC and ReVanced on android
dense coral
What is this new dev im hearing about?
vivid vessel
realz doesnt work on outlaw anymore
prolly started with tww tho
i know he had little impact on hero talents
cinder relic
adbnlock still works on firefox
vivid vessel
maybe its just brave adblocker
buoyant cosmos
I just tried a bunch of different videos on brave, no ads
vivid vessel
do ytou use the in house adblock from brave or ?
its not that i dont have ads but the videos legit wont load
buoyant cosmos
do ytou use the in house adblock from brave or ?
Yeah I didn't add anything
fathom stone
Whats the best way to sim for M+?
vivid vessel
its very consistent for me
i can try any video
as long as the brave adblock is up
it wont load
buoyant cosmos
vivid vessel
weird !
buoyant cosmos
Whats the best way to sim for M+?
dungeon slice
buoyant cosmos
weird !
Can you try with a vpn to a different country?
Could just be a weird France thing
vivid vessel
france ..
buoyant cosmos
They would never
final pagoda
Whats the best way to sim for M+?
what key level?
gaunt phoenix
For outlaw if something wins dslice it's going to win in keys
But outlaw hardly needs to sim keys anyway i think
Our gear is fixed everywhere
I tend to just 1 target 3 min like an m+ boss
dusty mulch
Was there ever a point where BtE triggered a dispatch on the other targets hit by your blade flurry? Did I gaslight myself into thinking this was a thing?
jagged plover
flurrying that would be so funny
eternal hound
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1422983549044265010/1423417931118940230/i...
Strong words for a hunter main
jagged plover
Strong words for a hunter main
takes one to know one I suppose
glass mortar
omg
wait did u cast adr
i hadnt cast it yet
it actually works exactly like ud think
AHAHAHAHA
vivid vessel
its funny how our gcd goes negative with negative haste
glass mortar
the basic gcd isnt effected
vivid vessel
but more haste doesnt go over gcd
errant terrace
do we only take prep in higher keys? doing weekly 10s and idk if it's worth or not since they just get stomped
keen belfry
@vivid vessel im getting gapped by a ret
gaunt phoenix
Prep shouldnt noticeably change +10 overall
vivid vessel
gaunt phoenix
this is the weakest ive ever felt
keen belfry
i mean solo i was losing to noobs last season
keen belfry
eu arms warriors actually gap
glass mortar
i mean outlaw is much better then last season
we are still meh
outlaw last season was contender for worst dps in the game for the season tho
hard to compare to that
vivid vessel
yes outlaw is decent this tier
compared to last
but im still wondering why i have to bottom every key while being the only spec not bringing a raid buff
and target capped
:D
daring yoke
Historically, between assa and sub, who has been at the bottom the most damage wise?
glass mortar
btw zac i changed my mind about this outlaw
vivid vessel
how long does historicaly mean
frigid olive
Is it just me or is getting in to +10's hard for outlaw rn. My ilvl is 268 and my rating is 2293
vivid vessel
:D
gaunt phoenix
Is it just me or is getting in to +10's hard for outlaw rn. My ilvl is 268 and m...
ye, everyone is 270 and 2500
picking outlaw is unlikely
vivid vessel
i have like 0.2s to react to my SS procs during AR and press the right button
i have noticed that i actually look at my fth display
instead of my cps
to know my cp gain
glass mortar
i was tracking it with old fashioned glowy WA icons over my head
1/2 for 3/6 stacks
forever
and now thats gone
i hate numbers
i want my glows!
but holy fuck this delay
how did they manage to make basic shit like that worse for the spec
glass mortar
well idk
eternal hound
Is it just me or is getting in to +10's hard for outlaw rn. My ilvl is 268 and m...
Running your own keys is your sole hope
glass mortar
ive heard that for alot of people their procs that work like this r delayed this expac
so they might have just shit something behind the scenes
daring yoke
how long does historicaly mean
Idk maybe since SL or something lol
vivid vessel
Idk maybe since SL or something lol
well sin was kinda not a key spec
frigid olive
Our dmg on trash is pretty good, idk why we dont get invited more
eternal hound
Our dmg on trash is pretty good, idk why we dont get invited more
arms's damage is good too
Still no invs
eternal hound
Lust or bust for keys
vivid vessel
the people in low keys
that i read all day in this discord
keep saying that outlaw does good in aoe
and bad st
aoe is our weakness
our st in keys is quite insane
keen belfry
we blast bosses in keys
vivid vessel
:D
keen belfry
90k if full uptime
eternal hound
Bro
anyone who says we do bad ST
Holy fuck
No
Play colo arms and tell me that
Unironically
I'm dead serious
frigid olive
I can usually top the meters if I can string together a few lvl 3 RtB's in a row
eternal hound
You wonna see bad ST
frigid olive
getting lvl 3 is such a huge boost, AR is up 100% basically
glass mortar
100% Bf damage...
zac we used to do 100% bf damage on 2 targets..
now we do nothing....
crazy timeline
vivid vessel
:D
eternal hound
100% Bf damage...
They decided only spec in the game could have 2 target niche
glass mortar
u mean like everyone but us
frigid olive
sword combat rogue in classic/vanilla. We were top dps until a month into AQ40
glass mortar
5 worst cleave specs in the game
3 of them r rogue
actually i think sin isnt in botto m5 anymore
2 of them are rogue
it had to be on purpose
we used to be gods at cleave
glass mortar
no way u do this by mistake
eternal hound
gives a fuck about calssic
gaunt phoenix
think the perception can also come from, if you are bad at outlaw then you will do no st, but aoe is propped up by blade flurry so it can 'seem good' comparatively
keen belfry
does outlaw aoe have a higher floor
vivid vessel
idk
gaunt phoenix
Yes
frigid olive
when i played classic back in '19 I was top dps every raid pretty much until naxx when warriors got OP
vivid vessel
there is more going on in aoe
but its also way easier to do aoe cause you have infinite energy
indigo token
welp
keen belfry
wanna know something i really hate
indigo token
that makes 3 guilds I failed the trial with
keen belfry
that i forgot about
vivid vessel
they just kicked me from the server
man i dont wanna be mean
but the issue is you
you need to look into yourself
this aint normally
indigo token
dude im fucking perplexed
this time I was trying super hard to be normal in vc and stuff
thick vigil
LMFAO