in two seasons in a row
#outlaw
novel socket
true
cinder relic
Isn't this expansion like insanely popular
craggy barn
when has a rogue been THE pi target? one time i guess
and it gets nuked
and its back to unholy and warlock or some shit
glass mortar
sin was ok with PI for a minute wasnt it
idk if we've ever been the dedicated PI target
sin used to have a bigger 2m go tho
craggy barn
nah we werent at that point either i think, just it was really good then
glass mortar
yea but it was a real spec
novel socket
Isn't this expansion like insanely popular
nah atleast in eu you notice this for boosting bookings etc are down bad (not the teams) but general
glass mortar
u could PI it and it wasnt inting
craggy barn
yea
serene urchin
idk if we've ever been the dedicated PI target
outlaw notoriously sims like shit with pi
glass mortar
outlaw is never being a PI target
novel socket
you could also pi the tank
serene urchin
im the only pumper in my guild so i get pi some times and its really not that good
novel socket
^^
craggy barn
i actively tell people if they want to piss everyone off to just PI me
bc i will NEVER notice it
and it wont go to someone who can actually do something with it
fervent scroll
when has a rogue been THE pi target? one time i guess
Df s3
fervent scroll
I loved that era
desert tendon
df S3 for 2 weeks until they nerfed assa to the ground and sub became the only spec
usual stuff
eternal hound
If wow is dying because of crap balance it should've died a decade ago
No im not kidding
frail veldt
im the only pumper in my guild so i get pi some times and its really not that go...
It's worse on outlaw than like half the tank specs
pseudo garden
Why simC keeps suggesting me Crit over Hate? im at 37% crit and 15% haste
glass mortar
link the sim
glass mortar
where is it choosing crit over haste
pseudo garden
on enchants , gems and flask
glass mortar
u set the flask or it goes to default
gems are identical
top and bottom sim r identical
idk where the enchant comparison is because have 5000000 gear sets running in this sim
vivid vessel
you can sim flasks now
glass mortar
ooo can u
glass mortar
k ignore what i said about flask
vivid vessel
i do find it surprising haste doesnt sim higher for him
glass mortar
what
on earth r u simming
7 minutes heavy movement?
the sim probably hates haste because whatever the fuck it does for heavy movement (im pretty sure it just forcibly interupts u and stops actions for periods of time?) is giving u lots of "free" energy
pseudo garden
i do find it surprising haste doesnt sim higher for him
thats why i figure out jajaja
vivid vessel
you have more crit than me even
idk maybe its just normal
you are using the talent that gives a bit of energy, in st with all the enrgy talents
still low gear so crit will have more vlaue
idk
glass mortar
does this ring crit enchant give way more crit rating effectively then the haste one does
whats 0.75% crit in rating
vivid vessel
[this one](https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons/center-combo-points), which, fu...
non addon people will go as far as using addons to not use addons
vivid vessel
does this ring crit enchant give way more crit rating effectively then the haste...
its crit efectiveness
not raw crit or raw haste
vivid vessel
it is better than other enchants yes
vivid vessel
im mostly thinking about that sim that i did, crit vs haste flask
and crit flask winning
quiet ore
non addon people will go as far as using addons to not use addons
What can I say, I just don't like the black rectangle look every UI heavy addon has
glass mortar
and its showing the setup to drop mastery and haste to gain pure crit and a little less haste is like
0.2% ahead of the mastery full haste setup
glass mortar
seems like its just a case of raw setup being better + dropping ur worst secondary off a neck leading to it barely winning
vivid vessel
i mean its just that idk
glass mortar
yea
vivid vessel
crit has very high value early on i guess
vivid vessel
idc about gear
glass mortar
better enchants raw, part of the stats its giving up is mastery for purely crit
pseudo garden
hahaha
brave lagoon
is there a secret strat to make good dmg on alleria, or it's just a dogshit fight for outlaw
brave lagoon
I wanna commit sepukku with them grey parses
vivid vessel
that doesnt change anything
brave lagoon
I got an arrow 2 sec after pressing adr in p1 
quiet ore
that doesnt change anything
If you're not sent off the boss by a mechanic, what makes it bad for OL?
vivid vessel
do you know the boss or not
quiet ore
Other than OL just being tuned kinda poorly in raid
vivid vessel
its mostly intermissions
quiet ore
do you know the boss or not
Yea?
glass mortar
i mean half the fight is intermissions with no targets
that line up well with peoples cds cooling down
while u just get fucked
glass mortar
any fight like this is dog by design for law
quiet ore
I mean, our CDs also CD
vivid vessel
for as long as you have been here
glass mortar
in 30 seconds of afk we would have gotten a 3m cd off cd
vivid vessel
and like
glass mortar
we got 30 seconds
vivid vessel
working around outlaw stuffs
glass mortar
everyone else is already designed around 30s just being 30s of cd off their major cd
we are not
vivid vessel
no flame
glass mortar
30s is supposed to be 2 AR uses
vivid vessel
but
glass mortar
u just lost to the fight
vivid vessel
how?
brave lagoon
I know it was a prog kill so I shouldn't look at my result that much but still it felt like I fumbled that fight the whole time
glass mortar
anytime u have cdr in ur rotation or maintenance buffs u can lose for long periods of time, downtime punishes u harder then normal specs
thats why outlaw always sucks with it
we are the cdr spec
regular afk time is worth way less for us then other people
seems like it might be pretty bad idk
brave lagoon
spent like 75% of last phase completely energy starved
glass mortar
not worst in the game i guess tho
quiet ore
I mean, you can absolutely still do good dam in the fight on law, just not crazy giga dam. But it's not like it's a vuln phase fight where we're super punished. And at like 20s the intermissions are long enough that you usually have ADR back after, or shortly thereafter, them if you didn't monkey-send immediately before. And in both p1 and p2 we do pretty decent cleave DPS even on max ST builds... I'm not saying other classes don't, like, actively like the downtime, but, sans mechanical unluck, the boss doesnt specifically make us feel that bad to play...
glass mortar
i mean it doesnt matter if u time ur adr around the windows
the windows still punish u more
we are bottom 3 specs in the game on the fight
vivid vessel
ok well there is no real cleave in p1
brave lagoon
look at this perfect energy management in p3 holy
vivid vessel
and i dont get how you dont understand how downtime is bad for outlaw
compared to ohter specs
vivid vessel
you will drop 2 dice uptime because unless you have kir, prep and adr all ready outlaw isnt built to handle that downtime
other specs will get 1min off of their cds
for free
glass mortar
but that doesnt change that that 20s of downtime was 80% of an adr cd u should have earned back
vivid vessel
and you arent getting cdr
quiet ore
I mean, I get it, we get more value from uptime than other specs, but, like, if you see the fight as the like 3 basically separate 2-3-minute fights it is, I wouldn't call any particularly egregiously anti-law
glass mortar
just the breaks make it anti outlaw
ur right it could be worse
we all played dimi
doesnt change that its bad tho
probably among our worst fights of the tier
maybe bird is worse
vivid vessel
I mean, I get it, we get more value from uptime than other specs, but, like, if ...
uh
but you cant do that tho
brave lagoon
haven't reached bird yet don't tempt me with a good time
brave lagoon
I shoul've commited and mained my evoker when I still had time
glass mortar
u will probably even be on the meter for awhile because of people holding cds
unfortunatly the useful damage u do
is da poop
vivid vessel
outlaw is prolly one of the worse spec in the game on bird
vivid vessel
prolly
glass mortar
its bad tho
serene urchin
i mean alleria we pad off the ads i guess lol kinda the only reason our dmg looks like semi decent p1
brave lagoon
ye but we're far from dominating p1 dmg even if we max pad on adds
glass mortar
i was in top 4 on meter on bird it was very exciting to me
but it was only cause everyone else held their cds
my damage in burn phases was almost as low as our tank
quiet ore
If you can get a one-phase egg group to keep you around, you look really good in the fight overall, even if you struggle to hit 150k DPS during egg
glass mortar
vivid vessel
If you can get a one-phase egg group to keep you around, you look *really good* ...
but you are useless on the fight so
serene urchin
u kill any boss quick ur dmg looks good tbf
vivid vessel
also this isnt even true
quiet ore
Like, the log I linked the other day was not a fluke, I went and did the same thing no problem. Well, problem being a 50k DPS spread on egg phase damage depending on buff state and ace procs.
glass mortar
i dont think any of us are saying ur damage cant look good
i mean its not, if ur other raiders were big gamers there should be plenty of people over u
vivid vessel
also this isnt even true
looking at this i dont think it can
glass mortar
we were saying ur useful damage for killing the boss is worst in the game tho
which is likely is
not super relevant on herioc tho
we almost 1 phased on first night also
and we are an alt raid
brave lagoon
I'll prolly never get to mythic bird so hc dmg matters to me
quiet ore
i mean its not, if ur other raiders were big gamers there should be plenty of pe...
I mean, that's the thing about one egg groups - law the only one than can pump outside egg without impacting egg performance. So you don't top egg dps, but you can top overall
glass mortar
by the time we get there i dont think itll matter
well one egg group is like
idk herioc strats?
vivid vessel
I mean, that's the thing about one egg groups - law the only one than can pump *...
you litteraly stop dps in mythic
glass mortar
do u think mythic will ever be weak enough for 1 egg?
without a full turbo boost idk
quiet ore
do u think mythic will ever be weak enough for 1 egg?
In a few weeks after turbo boost maybe - 298 weapons will go hard
vivid vessel
no but thye just nerfed all the hps so it will get easier
brave lagoon
ty guys for making me feel less like shit
stiff vector
I hate salhadaar as melee man, fucking BF range is just so dogshit and it cleaves such shit damage I feel like Id be better off just playing full ST
vivid vessel
why are you not playing full st
outlaw is actually quite good at boss damage on that boss
stiff vector
ye
indigo token
OUTLAW!!!
stiff vector
I swap between st/aoe tbh, but I think ill just perma give up on actualyl trying to cleave any relevant dmg to the orbs at this point
kinda pointless
azure snow
i wish i was better at outlaw
teal garnet
I hate salhadaar as melee man, fucking BF range is just so dogshit and it cleave...
its honestly pretty good at salhadar we just finished it on Mythic and I was up there in DPS
and I played cleave
stiff vector
I mean I can blast boss dmg, but cleaving orbs just feels like it depends on how well tankk actually keeps boss close to orbs its just annoying
teal garnet
our tanks are pretty good at keeping them near boss, I always cleave off big orb onto Salad
vivid vessel
orbs arent really melee jobn
sturdy crow
Is anyone doing high key outlaw vods on youtube? cant seem to find any
brave lagoon
thank you for your service
vivid vessel
also you dont have a choice i dont think there is a single other outlaw player out there
teal garnet
he also streams, go bother him
sturdy crow
whats the channel name
vivid vessel
click on my head
sturdy crow
tyty
the seo isn't your friend for some reason
this just yields like 10 videos of people who dont play outlaw doing an outlaw guide lol
teal garnet
I dont think Zac really advertises
vivid vessel
idk i dont try much
i dont think i have any tags or whatever
titles are also very straight forward so you could miss it even
sorry 
stiff vector
I think this is the first season I rly dont care about pushing keys ever
vivid vessel
idk i still have fun in keys
i do think they made m+ way worse in midnight
it feels a lot out of your control
stiff vector
blizzz kinda cooked my motivation for the game this xpac/patch ngl
teal garnet
Being in 12s week 1 in poop gear did feel weird
vivid vessel
at this point its already out of date tho
(was 2 days ago)
will time 20s tomorrow and upload
just for you
teal garnet
like we shouldnt be having 15-20 death 12s early timed
vivid vessel
idk does it matter
m+ is infinite scaling
why do you care that 10s are free
at least noobs get their vault they are happy
and if you want challenge you just push keys
everyone happy
gg !
glass mortar
zac u dont seem very happy....
vivid vessel
i am
glass mortar
good
glass mortar
just imagine
when u have ur new crimson vial talent in a few weeks
insane value
daring yoke
how big a difference between wearing the full 5 set vs 4 set + 1 armor with good stats at 285 all ilvl. does it matter much?
glass mortar
well the last piece has ur worst 2 stats and u could get a helmet with ur best 2
so probably somewhere in the area of 1-2%
just based on how many secondaries are on the slot u dont wanna get
could always sim it tho
just throw a tier helm in vs a same ilvl helm with crit haste or w/e u need
daring yoke
so probably somewhere in the area of 1-2%
ah cool thanks. good idea on that
glass mortar
that was very quick math tho so make sure to sim it 
its probably smaller then 2%
unless u desperatly need haste
daring yoke
because i have a 4 set with myth shoulder and myth head. not sure if i should send my crest for the myth head
glass mortar
i mean
if ur planning on upgrading it anyway which u are
its not like its wasted
whenever u get a real head itll be free to upgrade
daring yoke
oh yeah thats true. cheers
glass mortar
those two slots might give the same stats for upgrading tho so id upgrade the one with the better secondaries (shoulderS) first
i think helm and shoulder have similar stat pools right...
daring yoke
yeah about. helm 50 ver 100 mast. shoulder 30 haste 80 mastery
vivid vessel
no
glass mortar
hmm
vivid vessel
helm is
glass mortar
helm has more agi tho?
vivid vessel
chest legs
glass mortar
upgrade it first then ig
glass mortar
its not like stats on shoulders r that good anyway
daring yoke
fair point
dusty mulch
If I don't plan on Mythic raiding should I not bother putting an embellishment on my first mythic MH since I probably won't replace it and I'll craft the other two pieces with embellishments?
glass mortar
i mean u might end up with two crafted embellished weapons long term so
glass mortar
the weapon embells r pretty gud
dusty mulch
TY
foggy cove
Does 4p make a big difference on outlaw
vivid vessel
its quite good in aoe
you should have it tho
by this week you should have 2 thingies iirc
and then the one from 3k io
and then idk just loot one
glass mortar
it makes about a 3% different
vivid vessel
once you get 4p you can drop things over and over
foggy cove
I have 3p
glass mortar
did u receive any of them natty tho?
foggy cove
I’ve been grinding m+ for like 7 days straight all day to get a shoulder piece
glass mortar
just cata ur gear
as soon as u have 4set u start dropping free catas
from dungeons and raid
glass mortar
i have 4set and 3 of them are champ
daring yoke
once u have 4 sets, those cata will drop like candy
glass mortar
as soon as u get 4set u can drop additional catalyst charges
above the ones u get over time
for when u get better items for those slots
foggy cove
Yeah that’s what I’ve seen
foggy cove
Idk my m+ loot has been terrible this entire season so far i either get stuff in slots i already have or nothin
glass mortar
ok
but u can just go cata ur champ piece
and then u will start dropping catalyst charges
to upgrade whenever u get hero gear for that slot
to cata it
and u will have 4set
win win
foggy cove
Yeah I’ll prob just do that ig
stiff vector
ye you can liberally use cata charges more this xpac
glass mortar
i literally catad 3 champ pieces last week
stiff vector
youll get them once you equip 4 set
foggy cove
Are there any resources to check my gameplay looks like wowanalyzer isn’t setup for outlaw
stiff vector
dont trigger him
glass mortar
think of all the people begging for log reviews it would help zac...
foggy cove
glass mortar
(it does not work for current outlaw but the last time it worked zac was the one who fixed it iirc)
stiff vector
glass mortar
u can type !log and post logs and hope some friendly guy comes to help
foggy cove
Pretty sure I’m just playing the spec wrong cus I was bottom dps below tanks on heroic alleria
glass mortar
to be frank, reading outlaw logs is annoying af and takes awhile
vods are unironically better usually
fathom bramble
yeah...
daring yoke
(it does not work for current outlaw but the last time it worked zac was the one...
did someone broke it
fathom bramble
I got so many people asking for my help at the start of tier(maybe an indicator of how bad we are)
stiff vector
no just no1 keeps it updated
glass mortar
i mean outlaw isnt the same spec it was last time it was fixed
so the info it gives u isnt going to be useful
fathom bramble
and even giving each of them 20-40mins of looking is just not helpful
glass mortar
its looking for an old outlaws gameplay
vivid vessel
did someone broke it
you need to manually code a bunch of shit every time something changes basically
its quite a lot of work
glass mortar
its just so frustrating u cant see when cds came off cd in wcl
because thats a lot of outlaw
and then the rest is like, doing ur builder finishers right
which means u need to be trying to overlap casts with combo point level
which also cant be done efficiently
daring yoke
no wonder.
but the outlaw-faq is pretty good imo. i just use that without watching vids or anything else (not that we have any vids out there? lol)
vivid vessel
who was it
fathom bramble
hmmm
vivid vessel
i dont know him
foggy cove
Seems like he switched to sub
fathom bramble
that's like literally 1 haste rating
glass mortar
haste
foggy cove
:(
vivid vessel
what a funny UI he got
bunch of weird sounds !
this video is cracking me up actually
this guy is playing a different video game 
very funny
@proven ocean you there lil cuh ?
stiff vector
probably the one thing that has annoyed me most about how much they butchered this spec for midnight is how the spec feels much more predicated on rng than before, just feels like we have such little agency on our dmg now
glass mortar
yea u lost a bit of damage agency for sure, and more of our rng just moved into passive stuff and less in the direct rotation
our actual variance didnt increase (in st) but it feels like more of it is details variance and less gameplay for me
stiff vector
yeah its mostly just that it feels like there is no actual ways to outplay rng as much as you can like you could before, obv variance isnt quite as bad in ST but aoe/Dslice is so bad. Like in TWW at least I could outplay the rng mostly(outside of s3 fatebond coin crap rolling giga heads instead of tails) or hold a vanish charge.
Now its just like purely passive rng on nerfed fatal flourish regen, ace is worse, multiple layers of rng on our apex talent alone, buff management is 0 skill now pure rng, lack of BtE resets is even more detrimental now etc. Just so many layers of rng that you have basically have no ability to influence/outplay at all.
glass mortar
yea i mean we all complained about this for alpha and beta
someone saw outlaw and the teeny tiny baby bit of damage agency crackshot managed to provide us, and thought "no this spec shouldn't have damage agency" and removed it
not to oversell crackshot, lets be real the flexibility of vanish usage was never great, but it was something at least for a spec that has largely always been at the whims of procs and rng
but they made it worse
2 charges adr when
fathom bramble
it was such a massive difference from the way outlaw was in all of history though
very unfort
stiff vector
eternal hound
not to oversell crackshot, lets be real the flexibility of vanish usage was neve...
Blizz sees the whims of rng as a selling point
fathom bramble
the fact that our apex just has a random 45% chance for a significant part of BTE to double is crazy
eternal hound
I literally have no other explaination
mighty pivot
45% to double the buff, x% to get a bullet. I am surprised scoundrel strike is guaranteed
gleaming reef
Need help
M pieces are upgrades from Heroic to Myth track
But there's a gaze here
What would be the long term play?
vivid vessel
belt is useless
vivid vessel
legs is good but it comes from m+ so no free upgrades
also
you could buy the boe ..
lil boe..
2milli ..
foggy cove
Sounds like I picked a bad time to get into rogue
indigo token
its never a good time to get into rogue
gleaming reef
Ya I was thinking shoulders or trinket
indigo token
just less bad times
foggy cove
Idk I started playing wow this exp and when rolls are good outlaw is like the most fun shit ever lol
stiff vector
how you guys like my house, its a bit humble, been too lazy to add more 
gleaming reef
legs is good but it comes from m+ so no free upgrades
would you take shoulders or trinket?
vivid vessel
trinket prolly but i would hate it
gleaming reef
exactly
vivid vessel
if it were me i wouldnt have oppened that vault
vivid vessel
i dont get these kind of vaults
gleaming reef
then i would waste it
vivid vessel
i only get vaults that are easy decision
big upgrades
i dont deal with noob vaults
noah fence
gleaming reef
such is life
i could always take a socket
XD
long term play is shoulders right?
then wait for myth trinket
buy boe legs
vivid vessel
i mean i guess
gleaming reef
would suck if myth trinket appeared in vault or if it dropped in raid
and i already have hero
quiet ore
Guys my house is ramping
Player houses always feel like poorly lit dungeon - need windows with natural lighting/visible skybox blizz
indigo token
guys
i think im just really bad at outlaw and idk why
theres another outlaw in this raid gapping the shit out of me
quiet ore
theres another outlaw in this raid gapping the shit out of me
Link log, let us at em
indigo token
i want to believe its gear dif/ tier set dif cause its 25k dps but i know theres something wrong with how im playing and idk what
like we arent even that far in ilvl
pearl topaz
I am seeing my %'s of abilities the same amount as the top mythic parses but I think I am not optimising my positioning, though damn I feel weak
tbf i have shit stat priority I think its that and knowing the fights and not being defensive when we are a tanky af spec
daring yoke
had an aug and shadow priest in m+. i feel loved
fervent dust
gleaming reef
i mean i guess
actually why is the belt trash?
It's crit haste
Of course the dungeon one is better but my heroic is 3/6 atm
pearl topaz
hitting more, critting more, better weapons?
vivid vessel
actually why is the belt trash?
Just a low value slot
Not much stats
But I mean same as shoulder
This season these slots are kinda useless
Legit
gleaming reef
Sigh. I suppose that is true.
serene urchin
like we arent even that far in ilvl
i mean lowkey alot of outlaw is just pressing ur buttons fast enough
might jus be a hit dummies issue
frail veldt
!fuu
ornate heathBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
frail veldt
this shit good? Seems to sim alright
buoyant cosmos
this shit good? Seems to sim alright
nice plume
Looks like that one from MFO Saladbar too, just a faster CD?
serene urchin
how dod u sim these trinkets
frail veldt
Idk Im not raiding it's from the m+ row
frail veldt
how dod u sim these trinkets
Raidbots
serene urchin
yeah but for somer eason they are redded out
like when i try maybe im clicking the wrong one
frail veldt
Not sure tbh
serene urchin
oh wait im lookina tt he fucking darkmoon
mb i saw the paper and thought it was the darkmoon trinkets
uneven terrace
Hey. Is there a way at the moment to Track how many mobs i got in my blade flurry ? I used to have a weak aura to track this .
formal thunder
you check how many combo points you get
Full combo points: 
Not full combo points 
uneven terrace
Yeah of course 😄. But there is difference between 6 or 8 mobs in target . You normally always get full cp with 6
swift moon
!up
ornate heathBOT
tame flower
How come we dont take killing spree? Id of thought it would be a good little cooldown to have
hollow temple
How come we dont take killing spree? Id of thought it would be a good little coo...
its generally only used with trickster for synergy iirc
tame flower
its generally only used with trickster for synergy iirc
Aaah trickster i must of played that in s3 tww thats why i was confuddled 😂
hollow temple
not very good to be channeling on a spec that revolves around finishers for cdr
tame flower
I also didnt realise how much if a difference having 4 set bonus of would of made my dps went up by 30k overall just with that 😂
unkempt dew
Im wondering if trickster will be the play next patch
inland meteor
I hope not
light kernel
The only thing i like about trickster is perma tricks
unkempt dew
Just uncap killing spree
tranquil ledge
i think that all channeling spells It's just a problem for all kinds of content
hasty warren
Hi pirates
swift moon
I was a bit late on this season and never did my Crucible trinket. There is no catch up right, so I would need 3 weeks to get it fully skilled?
I guess it wouldnt be rlly worth it anymore then
river wing
yeah you'd be able to relatively easily snag a myth trink even by then
swift moon
Thx for this I guessed so, got a hero glaze with avoidance yesterday so my trinkets arent too bad tbh
tropic zephyr
Just uncap killing spree
kspree is litterally one of worst designed spell in the game
no prio, random damage
shit damage too
the whole trickster tree is just bad
unkempt dew
Hmm sadge
junior folio
kspree is litterally one of worst designed spell in the game
But the spell is cool, that's the point and cool = fun
wintry solar
its a janky anim with a gun pointing at random directions
junior folio
You can say that about anything really
wintry solar
not really
KS is like
you take 2 animations and make it only play a 3rd of each animation
junior folio
And btw people can have opinions, some like some dislike it's fine, don't need to make it sound like it's objectively bad
junior folio
It isn't though, maybe in your head
wintry solar
opinions can be wrong and if its a positive about KS it more than likely is
junior folio
All it takes is a small aura modifier and suddenly everyone loves it
People do play the game for the vibes and ks has a good vibe and sound
fading igloo
People do play the game for the vibes and ks has a good vibe and sound
Idk my spammy buttom mash class standing still for 2 seconds to look "cool" isn't really the greatest vibe
KS feels a bit like FoF for Monk and that's my least fav. part of Monk too
fading igloo
Spell just locks you into itself, can't use defensives, kick, do anything other than walk and hope for the best eh
tropic zephyr
But the spell is cool, that's the point and cool = fun
I mean it's a bladestorm with guns
it's like
2008 design
was cool in 2008
vapid blaze
Spell just locks you into itself, can't use defensives, kick, do anything other ...
that they havent learned this yet is wild
junior folio
was cool in 2008
Again, you could say this about anything, doesn't make it true
tropic zephyr
well, the game is pretty fast paced now, especially for law
a button that makes you wait 2 seconds is pretty bad design
not even talking about its other issues like damage profile, slows you down etc...
fading igloo
It'd just be nice if channels like KS didn't fully interrupt gameplay flow, because by all means, it's jarring to get taken out of action by a single button on an otherwise high apm spec
just feels very confused and like, why is this even here
and if it really really really needs to be there, it could at least be a good button, but it's not that great of a button to begin with
LET ALONE having anti synergy with our only pseudo cooldown Adrenaline where you wanna make sure to never even press em together
true dust
you guys need to drink less caffein, i would enjoy a 2 seconds break 😄 (if it actually is a good button ofc)
fading igloo
you guys need to drink less caffein, i would enjoy a 2 seconds break 😄 (if it a...
unironically play WW Monk
tropic zephyr
Yeah, the animation is cool and all, and it doesn't need to be trashed. It could just be something like Spinning Crane Kick/Rushing Jade Wind where you can still press buttons as you're doing Kspree
that would be pretty cool
fading igloo
entire spec revolves around getting to the 2 second break lol
it's chill for sure
true dust
fair but i enjoy rogue more
fading igloo
Still wish there was a ranged spammy spec, outlaw APM but I don't need to kiss the enemy homies on the mouth while im doing it
true dust
fire mage maybe comes close? As long as you can combust on every pack
fading igloo
I did try fire Mage but it wasn't exactly the vibe
Combust makes me happy but not being in combust just...
true dust
yea it's great when you have combust most of the time, fire was insanely fun when i played it in TWW S1
but they changed a lot about the spec so not sure about the current state
junior folio
Ellie
river wing
But the spell is cool, that's the point and cool = fun
it is cool
but it fights against the rest of the spec AND itself a lot
like you don't want to press it during AR, you stop pressing buttons and quickly CDRing your stuff during it, it overcaps CPs if used at 7 (and you rather want a 3-min CD finisher to be used at 7 lmao), it slows you down (WHY), it prevents you from kicking (ngl it is insane that melee channels drop on kicking, that BS can avoid that, and that BS still has to have a "hero talent" to do it when it should be baseline functionality)
...in some ways, I am really questioning a lot of baseline design of the game atm
junior folio
All of that is fair and I don't disagree, but looking at face value alone, pressing it is nice to look at, that's it I didn't say it merged with the kit well
river wing
yeah it looks nice and feels-wise it's probably the best rogue ability overall lmao
because it actually has screenshake when you press it, imagine that
junior folio
I wish it worked tbh, not an easy compromise
river wing
ya
tbh if it just did twice its damage
it would work
it would still have all the same problems but people would deal with it
junior folio
Yeah so true, that's why I said it was one aura mod away from people loving it heh
Would be good to at least make it pause AR during the channel
So you could benefit from all the perks of having it active
leaden sonnet
is eyes of the eagle ring enchant sim bait
Is real. 1.25% crit damage is good
river wing
So you could benefit from all the perks of having it active
ngl the most epic move would be "extends your AR duration for 1s for every combo point" instead of this "refills your CPs"
suddenly bam, it's synergistic
junior folio
That would be so sick fr
river wing
they're both on 3m CDs anyway, so they sync up
outer forge
The new KS really grew on me in TWW. Pity that it is in such a bad state now.
glass shard
Is real. 1.25% crit damage is good
ty :)
gaunt phoenix
Ks is so close to greatness
But they exhausted their budget to fuck with it any longer
clever wasp
@vivid vessel what crafts would u do in my situation for outlaw keys (gearing for push in some weeks)
river wing
But they exhausted their budget to fuck with it any longer
could honestly say that about 'law in general ngl
like if we had the same amount of fucking around and dev attention MM hunter gets on a regular basis, outlaw would be a shining star spec by now
tropic zephyr
<@352916297262301194> what crafts would u do in my situation for outlaw keys (ge...
you kinda f'd up with that dagger craft
ring is probably best
gotta sim brother
especially since you have a bad ring
clever wasp
@tropic zephyrliterally got every crest escept the crafted weapons, and yes i was a sub at the start so thats why the dagger
i havent sent anything outside of the ''bad'' dagger
tropic zephyr
it's fine actually, I know on my char boots with arcanoweave and ring with iris simmed higher than dagger
but yeah your next craft is either boots with arcanoweave or ring with iris
my advice is to sim with BiS items that you'll eventually get in dungeons, like the PoS neck, PoS finger, PoS belt etc
this way you don't get skewed result because of bad stats of your current gear that you'll eventually replace
clever wasp
i will not craft for like a month, i was asking for alot in the future, ofc i will get gear lol, im waiting for mythic reduction from my main lol
zenith egret
Might be our guild rogue to go on Vanguard/Paladins MM prog. Is the CoS working on the absorb ?
dreamy kernel
i was looking into playing outlaw rogue and i wanna ask if the spec is in a good pos rn in 15+ keys and higher considering the current meta
wide flare
It works fibe for 15+ however if you’re puggung it may take a while to find groups - looks for potential melee comps
fervent vessel
i was looking into playing outlaw rogue and i wanna ask if the spec is in a good...
With the right group comp. Brew, RSham, Feral, Warrior.
Otherwise pugging, most groups might overlook you
gaunt phoenix
yeah, it can work, but would not call it meta or popular
wide flare
People really are not used to seeing outlaw and usually assume it is not great
Especially with Aug being back it is diffcult to get spots as a dps when pugging
Do we have a date for 12.0.5?
gaunt phoenix
21st
still matrix
Any more tuning then or is that just bonus roles?
gaunt phoenix
we get new ace and trickster cloud cover
devout garden
i luv ouwlaw
potent ore
trickster cloud cover?
gaunt phoenix
it's a talent in trickster tree that was unusable before
still matrix
Big unholy changes, idk what it means lol
gaunt phoenix
it amplifies fazed during adrenaline rush, dunno yet if it's any good
river wing
more dam?
it's a choice talent with +10% more crit to finishers on fazed targets, so it'd have to be good to be more dam
swift moon
it amplifies fazed during adrenaline rush, dunno yet if it's any good
We can’t sim it?
gaunt phoenix
not until the code is written to make it work
swift moon
Would be cool to play KS but would rlly miss my hooks
dense forge
tropic zephyr
it's actually wild how few law parses are uploaded rn
my omega shit parses on 16s gets me top 100 which includes highers keys
thorn parrot
Yeah I was looking at logs for raids as well and we’re nowhere near most other classes
quiet ore
it amplifies fazed during adrenaline rush, dunno yet if it's any good
I mean, it has to be at least situationally good in amp fights. It's like 14% extra damage for 15s layered on top of adr's typical amp.
indigo token
OUTLAW!!!!
quiet ore
If 30% amp on demand via prep can't give us a burst profile, nothing will
near rock
Yeah I was looking at logs for raids as well and we’re nowhere near most other c...
outlaw population is just incredibly small
quiet ore
outlaw population is just incredibly small
0.3% of m+ runs seen by rio
Actually least played class in the game rn, by m+ participation
In what I believe is a season with the highest m+ participation in recent history?
jolly geyser
Ye
near rock
ye I only speak from a raiders perspective
but its usually least played in mythic raid, at least in the harder later encounters
vivid vessel
why exactly did we nerf bf
thorn parrot
I know a lot of us go in and turn heads tho in keys. That’s always fun to show people the real potential of the class.
quiet ore
why exactly did we nerf bf
Because even if the overalls are always mid, once in awhile we pop off for one pull, and that has to be what blizz sees. Because nothing else makes sense.
Like once every 5 keys I'll out-pump my mm hunter friend on a pull he CDs, and he'll be like "yo, can you do that again", and I'm like "no".
river wing
yeah I do some mad numbers every blue moon
and then next pull I'm like "ok why am I doing half that now, nothing changed"
(meanwhile my WW bro is like "you have to actually try for this? I'll do this every BL")
jolly geyser
and then next pull I'm like "ok why am I doing half that now, nothing changed"
because fuck you says rogue
random stirrup
bte procs both increasingly giving you a stacking amp and being an insanely high dpet button that both does big damage and gens cp is an interesting choice
quiet ore
ye I only speak from a raiders perspective
There's, what, maybe 400 logs for ol for h beloren, 315 for mythic voidspire 1st boss, and dropping down to 47(!) for heroic midnight falls (I can't even get an invite to a pug group), yeeeah, I don't think many OLs exist this season. This channel might be a substantial percentage of the raiding population.
river wing
I play outlaw in raid to have less time to think about how terrible my damage is
quiet ore
Think about it: less than 50 OL have earned aotc on their law (...and had it logged)
river wing
Think about it: less than 50 OL have earned aotc on their law (...and had it log...
not gonna get there for another week or two
sunday is going to be a trip to Crown again
limpid acorn
why exactly did we nerf bf
river wing
who's ready for a 4% nerf/revert in the evening?
inland meteor
who's ready for a 4% nerf/revert in the evening?
are there additional balance changes planned for today?
leaden sonnet
Probably not as there's the .5 Patch coming up
barren plover
you must have iron will to remain faitfull and play Outlaw
shell fossil
oh brother
leaden sonnet
Might be some balance tunings with that patch but who knows
barren plover
its just discouraging to be destroyed in every M+ by almost anyone
grim spear
.5 patch won't fix any thing
shell fossil
it'd be nice if we scaled well into late season
barren plover
my friend told me, just switch Assa, you will pull much better and bigger numbers
quiet ore
who's ready for a 4% nerf/revert in the evening?
I mean, we're only like 8% behind, eg, mm hunter in ST. Another few 4% nudges and we'll be exactly on par.
inland meteor
my friend told me, just switch Assa, you will pull much better and bigger number...
bro just stop listening to ur friend and play what u want
its not that deep
barren plover
yea, i know
grim spear
Rogue designers and Rogues, only one of them gets to live.
inland meteor
and you're not automatically bottom dps every time just because u play outlaw
barren plover
its not that deep
thats reason why i keep playing alone my own keys
inland meteor
unless ure playing 1button rotation
gaunt phoenix
I mean, we're only like 8% behind, eg, mm hunter in ST. Another few 4% nudges an...
I need to play me some mm, seems like riveting gameplay
barren plover
its much better and i dont feel presure
quiet ore
I need to play me some mm, seems like riveting gameplay
RIVETING
keen belfry
the thing mm does in low target cleave is wild
barren plover
and you're not automatically bottom dps every time just because u play outlaw
thats the thing. I am never worst dps in party but to the otherside, once i touch 15+ i just cant compete with certain DD
keen belfry
they took our niche
gaunt phoenix
didnt MM used to have no 2 target at all
keen belfry
yea
barren plover
against MM, they just pull insane numbers if you have tank which chainpull big groups
keen belfry
you had to pull a 3rd mob onto bosses that were 2 target cleave
random stirrup
you know MM gains more than 100% dps from having a second target. I remember a certain rogue spec that used to cleave at more than 100% but that was deemed criminal and removed 
quiet ore
I need to play me some mm, seems like riveting gameplay
If you haven't tried it and are looking for something to try, the powers that be in the mistweaver discord seem to hate it (something about sheilun's gift being too strong after they complained it was too weak pre-launch), but there's a CDR focused build that feels very outlawy in keys and pumps heals while doing crazy damage
near rock
https://gyazo.com/266f38d64f5fd8f7225608baa48dde72 outlaw logging highest?
yeah we're the king of shit mountain
near rock
I need to play me some mm, seems like riveting gameplay
I played my mm hunter for one day and it was an entire different world of warcraft compared to outlaw
gaunt phoenix
near rock
I felt drool coming out of my mouth
grim spear
keen belfry
you know MM gains more than 100% dps from having a second target. I remember a c...
its overt 100?
quiet ore
its overt 100?
It was before they nerfed the bounce from 65% to... Less a few weeks ago, now it's like exactly 100%
Literally their 2t sim is 2x their 1t
keen belfry
thats banger
quiet ore
Their st (and 2t) rotation/build is also strong enough that they use it up to like 6t iirc
Literally don't bother with multishot
livid kindle
!fuu
ornate heathBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
keen belfry
Their st (and 2t) rotation/build is also strong enough that they use it up to li...
i think they always st and are giga funnel
zinc briar
is this the worst expansion that u remember?
quiet ore
I mean, we're clearly getting data driven aura tweaks because in the last two expansions we've converted a hotfix rebalance/bugfix into game-breaking DPS until patched, so, they clearly fear our lack of guard-rails on our feedback loops
zinc briar
outlaw sux, all anti mele, fps in raid sux with pc of 3k more, m+ are uggly and one more time perma queue coz no auto matchmaking and u have to deal with meta lovers.... zzZZzZzzz
Bugs like waiting 1 min to recover bte in Vorasius and other bosses...
Etc
zinc briar
because dimensius was even worst
quiet ore
It's not that bad. But perception of us is that bad, after multiple weeks of the 4% treatment.
zinc briar
and wait for next weeks, everyone overscales us
gaunt phoenix
this tier is the weakest ive ever felt
and ive run with the same guild for 10 years
so i know my damage compared to them
i'd say in BFA we were similarly bad in raid but at least we were cracked out in keys
stiff vector
im ngl Ive never had this little motivation to play and care about the game, let alone ever had that happen at the start of a xpac/tier. Just so many dogshit changes to not only the class/spec but the game in general stacked on top of each other for Midnight, passion for the game is by far at an all time low for me
quiet ore
i'd say in BFA we were similarly bad in raid but at least we were cracked out in...
I mean, I'd say keys are what's the not-too-bad part rn, too
gaunt phoenix
we aren't too bad in keys but it's still the weakest ive ever felt in them
zinc briar
and ive run with the same guild for 10 years
same here, im 30 times better than my teammates of raid and i was always top 3 dps, now im 7-8 sometimes with 99 parse
quiet ore
we aren't too bad in keys but it's still the weakest ive ever felt in them
Weirdly, our defensive kit hasn't changed, but I just feel... Fragile?
random stirrup
im ngl Ive never had this little motivation to play and care about the game, let...
I enjoy the game and the later raid bosses are fun, pushing keys still seems kind of fun but the class changes and tuning are really really depressing
gaunt phoenix
well it has kinda, we lost vers and float
zinc briar
I mean, I'd say keys are what's the not-too-bad part rn, too
keys? try to be picked in queue
as outlaw
gaunt phoenix
float was the goat..
zinc briar
im pugging for 16, i want to star pushing after doing 15 and its impossible
without my friend healer who is so bad hahaha
stiff vector
I mean in keys its not even just feeling weak damage wise+having all the downsides we do(extremely high variance, energy issues, only hardcapped spec, no burst, completely awful in low target cleave now etc.), but the complete lack of utility, and then having our defensives also GIGA nerfed, you just feel so squishy in higher keys. And imo the spec is also just far less fun to play now compared to DF/TWW
quiet ore
im pugging for 16, i want to star pushing after doing 15 and its impossible
I spent 2 hours late last night trying to pug my missing 14s, I'm aware :S
shell fossil
i think if i full enchant i can catch that dh, random seat 10
feels good when you have a lot of 3 buffs and bte resets
zinc briar
I spent 2 hours late last night trying to pug my missing 14s, I'm aware :S
same here and im always top dps of the m+
i have to link screenshots of overalls to be picked
quiet ore
float was the goat..
True. And my points of comparison, squishy mail classes like hunter, shammy, evoker, all got tankier
patent mirage
rogue got very bad utility compared to other classes
it would be fine if we got some utility and okish dmg
but we got none of those
stiff vector
tbh Hunter wasnt even squishy at all in TWW, it was fairly tanky in S3 when I was maining BM and it got a pretty solid defensive buff for Midnight. Hunter is actually pretty tanky now, and outlaw went from giga tanky to feeling far more fragile
patent mirage
no aoe stop for example
random stirrup
True. And my points of comparison, squishy mail classes like hunter, shammy, evo...
evoker never really been squishy, but outlaw went from a contender for top 3 tankiest in game to bottom 10 probably
patent mirage
meanwhile warrior got shockwave
zinc briar
since we dont scale with versa... we are a joke
quiet ore
also we dont have aoe cc
I don't see why they had to delay giving it back to the .5 patch. That's just salt.
twin citrus
Isn't AoE Blind coming in two weeks?
patent mirage
like gouge has to be smth else by now
zinc briar
if u believe them
quiet ore
We had it 3 weeks ago, we'll have it again 2 weeks from now
frail veldt
i think if i full enchant i can catch that dh, random seat 10
Brother your details
shell fossil
Brother your details
okay
keen belfry
we aren't too bad in keys but it's still the weakest ive ever felt in them
did u play last season?
zinc briar
we are 30 times worst than last season now
keen belfry
i feel much stronger than tww s3
frail veldt
Weirdly, our defensive kit hasn't changed, but I just feel... Fragile?
Our defensive kit was pretty severely nerfed. Evasion cooldown was increased by 300%, Feint by a lot too, and no vanish healing
quiet ore
and not reducing the cd of vanish to evade casts
Holy SHIT breaking roots is so much less free now
frail veldt
And no vers
stiff vector
Idk Midnight changes/pruning is jst horrible unless you are one of the chosen few classes who either barely got touched by it for some reason, or actually got stronger. It just doesnt make any sense. Like we got universally nerfed in like everyway for Midnight(for literally no reason), but DK got a slap on the wrist, hunter got even tankier etc. It just feels like rogue was already in a bad spot at the end of TWW, and then they decided to do nothing but make terrible changes/nerfs to us for Midnight for some reason.
gaunt phoenix
did u play last season?
yes
patent mirage
there is new vial thing but its mostly pointless in m+
unless they sort it out
at least bte resets feel better in the ptr
zinc briar
i think that meta will be triple aug/tank with agresive build and healer with dps build
just wait
frail veldt
I didn't feel weak in keys last season cuz I was immortal
frail veldt
Even though my damage wasn't great
zinc briar
tank, healer and 3 augs
keen belfry
i guess i was just tlaking about dps
zinc briar
lets goooooooooo
patent mirage
tww s3 and 4 dmg was mid
zinc briar
free keys
ornate loom
Guess imma swap assa sadge
frail veldt
tww s3 and 4 dmg was mid
There was no s4 tww
zinc briar
Guess imma swap assa sadge
assa is not that good
patent mirage
boost thing w/e
vivid vessel
waht
vivid vessel
has a spec ever lost that much defensivness going into a new patch
near rock
interesting, i felt a fair amount weaker last season
I agree with u here, tww s3 was my least favorite season as outlaw by far. god that shit was awful
patent mirage
others got it too but , we need smth
vivid vessel
we lost float, vers stacking, vanish, 5% on ps, 5% trickster
keen belfry
the biggest change to our defensives feels like the opportunity cost of pressing feint IMO
esp in hard bosses/pulls
vivid vessel
that is also true
zinc briar
hunter has insta heal
random stirrup
has a spec ever lost that much defensivness going into a new patch
think mage was close maybe a bit less bad
vivid vessel
i was pressing feint perma in keys last tier
keen belfry
yeah you feel really bad if u have to press feint twice in a pull
zinc briar
we have to decide between feint or heal
random stirrup
especially non frost
zinc briar
to use our energy and global cd
keen belfry
I agree with u here, tww s3 was my least favorite season as outlaw by far. god t...
legit felt handicapping pugs
zinc briar
meh we sux
stiff vector
its just hilarious to me DK was by far the most broken defensively in TWW, and all they got for Midnight was one small defensive taken away(that they rarely even ever had to use because they were so tanky), but Outlaw got absolutely shit on. Like ????
quiet ore
i cannot press feint in keys
Truth - if I press feint in keys it's because the healer really needs it and I'm agreeing to do no damage for a few GCDs in exchange for living
patent mirage
idk but it feels sad when you see how they treated dks vs rogue
unholy got nerfed and buffed in a blink of an eye
keen belfry
unrelated to tankiness, but i think dying with AR on cd is worse than ever before
you cripple your energy for the future in the next 30 seconds of the key by having non ld rolls and no ar
quiet ore
unrelated to tankiness, but i think dying with AR on cd is worse than ever befor...
Does deadly pursuit tick while dead 🤔
vivid vessel
10s cdr holy shmoke !
keen belfry
deady could tick forever and u wouldnt notic eit
random stirrup
unholy got nerfed and buffed in a blink of an eye
hey man it was looking "non competitive" (read: still better than rogue as a class on multiple fights) for all of 6 hours so emergency hotfix buffs were required
keen belfry
good idea with deadly pursuit, comically terrible executionm
patent mirage
its a talent that wasnt tested at all
if they wanted to give us out of melee cdr it should have been more
quiet ore
good idea with deadly pursuit, comically terrible executionm
It just needs to not stop ticking on cp expenditure, really
patent mirage
like for a moment think this , this idea should be the real prep but way stronger than now
random stirrup
let's not talk about the aura buffs and targeted buffs to devourer that is now the best spec in the game on multiple fights
when it was already strong
random stirrup
really disgusting favouritism idk
keen belfry
let's not talk about the aura buffs and targeted buffs to devourer that is now t...
tbf idc about devdh tuning cause i was expecting it to be very very ggood
stiff vector
i mean not really surprising its the new spec, so w/e I already accepted it was going to get special treatment
quiet ore
let's not talk about the aura buffs and targeted buffs to devourer that is now t...
Yeah. It does blow my mind that they nerfed it by a few % cause it was over performing, then the next week about faced with some meaty buffs. Cool stuff.
patent mirage
the problem is when you see a rogue and you think of " oh an outlaw fk me "
random stirrup
dk gets a slap on the wrist every tier, blizzard blindfolded when hunter is op every single tier
keen belfry
i am over hunters and dks
feral mason
Hey guys! New rogue here and I've been playing subtley for this whole xpac so far and it's kind of boring and I'd love the fantasty of being a pirate with pistols and grappling hook but I'm also afraid that I'm gonna be bottom of the bottom dps while I'm currently ripping 14's on my sub and i dont wanna mess up a ton i thought of even leveling a different rogue and leveling as outlaw just so i can learn it slower, thoughts?
cinder relic
Hey guys! New rogue here and I've been playing subtley for this whole xpac so fa...
U can probably just do 10s and shit as outlaw while learning
Idt leveling will help you get acclimated
quiet ore
Hey guys! New rogue here and I've been playing subtley for this whole xpac so fa...
Levelling as OL won't help your learn it well, I don't think the builds really click till the late 70s or early 80s even
cinder relic
But outlaw is harder
feral mason
But outlaw is harder
Subtley is just 2 button rotation rn so I'd probably enjoy the harder gameplay
stiff vector
dk gets a slap on the wrist every tier, blizzard blindfolded when hunter is op e...
Its just annoying that DK/hunter/mage etc. just have been getting CONSTANT iteration(and mostly good iteration) literally every tier, and have literally been extremely good for almost every single tier/season for like 3-4+ seasons now. But we get consistently ignored, and then the little attention they have given us for Midnight(basically got nothing for all of TWW) all they did was literally make the spec/class worse in everyway. Like tf is even going on at blizzard, at least tune us well.
cinder relic
I mean rogue is usually very good as well lol
This is the worst rogue tier since castle nathria
It's been over 5 years
random stirrup
I did a full look at some point and hunter has had a spec in the top 5 for st every single patch since start of DF or something
quiet ore
This is the worst rogue tier since castle nathria
Oh hey, that was when I swapped from sub to ol
random stirrup
dk is similar iirc only exception was like start of amirdrassil before they ascended with the legendary
stiff vector
I did a full look at some point and hunter has had a spec in the top 5 for st ev...
a number of those tiers they had multiple specs in the top 5 too
shell fossil
vers was kind of a rp stat for outlaw rogue tho
random stirrup
and now hunter also has the best raid buff in the game for raid participation
cinder relic
I feel like ppl overindex whenever there's like, 1 bad tier
feral mason
I just have 2 daggers rn so is switching to outlaw even a thing I can do rn? Also are these stats acceptable?
cinder relic
I just have 2 daggers rn so is switching to outlaw even a thing I can do rn? Als...
Need more haste. Like 21% minimum
quiet ore
I just have 2 daggers rn so is switching to outlaw even a thing I can do rn? Als...
Nope. Spells don't work without a slow main hand.
gaunt phoenix
you need slow mainhand and haste
feral mason
ah i see
swapped some gear to get to 19% haste but how do yall suggest i get a main hand?
cinder relic
Ppl do this in a lot of games though
Any time x is overtuned or undertuned there's like a whole convo about game design and philosphy and "well what about x, x is always op"
Like in mfo, most guilds ran 0 hunters
Even if they were solid, and op by farm
quiet ore
swapped some gear to get to 19% haste but how do yall suggest i get a main hand?
Craft on Tuesday? Delves?
cinder relic
For prog they were basically as worthless as a rogue is rn
feral mason
Craft on Tuesday? Delves?
oh true sorry
cinder relic
This is like the first time Frost mage has been "the spec" I think literally ever
inner yacht
wasnt assa top 3 in tww s1? just bcs outlaw isnt great doesnt mean all rogues are always bad
random stirrup
Like in mfo, most guilds ran 0 hunters
if they repeated mfo now you'd run 2 probably due to their raid buff (at least on NK, one on dimmy)
shell fossil
you definitely die if a healer isn't watching you in 12s
random stirrup
not that that is super relevant but
shell fossil
ate 3 tics of a shrink cast and died before healer started dropping us on boss in a maisara
cinder relic
wasnt assa top 3 in tww s1? just bcs outlaw isnt great doesnt mean all rogues ar...
Tww s1 all 3 specs were good
Tww s2 sub and sin were very good. Sin got buffed mid season ish and took over
Tww s3 sub was a carry spec. Sin was good after on farm tho.
cinder relic
if they repeated mfo now you'd run 2 probably due to their raid buff (at least o...
Sure but my point still stands
quiet ore
wasnt assa top 3 in tww s1? just bcs outlaw isnt great doesnt mean all rogues ar...
Outside of egregious bugs, like that time when coup was glitched to never reset and we could macro everything into coup and spin forever, OL hasn't been "the chosen one" if the rouge specs since at least shadowlands, imo
gaunt phoenix
oh true sorry
I think they meant it as a genuine suggestion and not flippant
feral mason
ah im slow, ty lol
cinder relic
But yeah idk. Rogue has 1 bad tier. It sucks. I don't like it. But I don't think it's some grand like, anything
It's just 2 bad rogue fights back to back, plus not exceptional tuning to offset that
quiet ore
We also were pretty baller in that prepatch with dreadblades before that got nuked from orbit
cinder relic
Rogue is very okay, but theres 2 fights where you need to be God to have a chance at seeing raid
gaunt phoenix
i think it's confounding rogue having a bad tier as a whole vs outlaw
quiet ore
i think it's confounding rogue having a bad tier as a whole vs outlaw
True - I've always said "I can just swap sub for a fight if OL is really that bad on it", and did back in m abberus, but, like, hardly seems worth rn
mystic peak
i have been swapping sub on fights where i need to do raid callouts lol
i just straight up couldnt raid lead lura in outlaw
random stirrup
Sure but my point still stands
It just gets increasingly frustrating with time seeing other classes get constant reworks and be generally well-tuned while others are left to rot (and some specs in particular). See things like aoe blind being taken away in a hotfix then left to the .5 patch to be given back, would never happen to another spec. I already had lingering resentment from how bad rogue's raid buff is relatively and I was proven entirely correct this tier. All the other triple dps classes generally have at least one spec that is doing extremely well without needing to exploit a particular niche, mage gets burst and execute while being mage but usually has one spec that is also just highly tuned, hunter is just a st monster every tier (their raid buff did indeed suck which was a hindrance and they only have 2 real specs), DK has been catered to with grips ever since the LOU meltdown and they also have 90s burst niche/super good ST in UDK in the past. Warlock has spread cleave, obviously strong raid buff, stacked cleave, burst, etc, though they are generally not tuned as well as the other ones. Rogue is usually reliant on sub leveraging burst on a few important fights or sin leveraging execute in such a way that they are not highly tuned outside of that, though I could be misremembering.
minor thorn
Block of text
river wing
It just needs to not stop ticking on cp expenditure, really
nonono
it just needs to not stop ticking until cp expenditure if they wanna throw us into fights like Dimmy and Alleria with 30s downtimes
cinder relic
It just gets increasingly frustrating with time seeing other classes get constan...
But again, just to circle back, in mfo, it was a 0 hunter tier
Is it the case that usually a 3 dps spec would have 1 spec be good enough? Yes
Is it always the case? Not really
random stirrup
and they gigabuffed their raid buff as as result to the best one in the game
do you think atro will get that
cinder relic
I forget wasn't it a 1 mage tier on undermine
random stirrup
I forget wasn't it a 1 mage tier on undermine
you played 4 on gallywix and 2 on mugzee pretty sure
cinder relic
Right
random stirrup
mystic peak
until you got to nymue and then it was stack ranged pls
cinder relic
Idt anybody was comp building for nymue
minor thorn
Imagine building a roster for a free boss
random stirrup
you play double mage almost every tier because they're op its literally been so long you cant remember
case in point
mystic peak
i used to bring in ranged pugs so the melee didnt have to soak ngl - on heroic that was
cinder relic
Listen my broader point is just like
If the raid had not specifically, the worst melee fights of all time back to back
Followed by an EXTREMELY tight dps check and nothing else mattered
This convo wouldn't be happening at all
random stirrup
Your point doesn't mean anything because if rogue had a proper buff none of that would matter
cinder relic
Do u agree or disagree with that
random stirrup
like it just wouldn't if it brought AI or MOTW instead
cinder relic
Yeah rogue raid buff should be stronger
minor thorn
I'm amazed Outlaw isn't good on Paladins man. Perma stacked cleave? Are we just that bad atm...
cinder relic
I'm not going to disagree with this
cinder relic
I'm amazed Outlaw isn't good on Paladins man. Perma stacked cleave? Are we just...
It's not the strength of the spec atm
latent oak
I'm amazed Outlaw isn't good on Paladins man. Perma stacked cleave? Are we just...
outlaw doesnt do low target cleave anymore
minor thorn
Thats so alien to me.
vivid vessel
Still waiting for the outlaw tier
vivid vessel
It's not the strength of the spec atm
What's the strength of the spec
This is a trick question btw
quiet ore
I'm amazed Outlaw isn't good on Paladins man. Perma stacked cleave? Are we just...
In a cruel twist of fate, other classes have stronger 2-3 target cleave than we do. A lot of them.
random stirrup
my general point isn't really about that though, it's just that general tuning and dev attention/utility feels biased
and as a secondary point, on a class level basis, that doesn't matter for most classes at all because their buff means they will always be brought regardless of circumstance
cinder relic
I think it's a case of the grass is always greener because literally every spec I talk to complains and says they don't get attention
So I have no idea how much more or less we get compared to other classes
vivid vessel
Appart from surv hunter
random stirrup
I'm not saying rogue attention is particularly low, I would say monk is underlooked as well
random stirrup
I'm more annoyed about the top end stuff than the bottom end, I care less about some specs being on the bottom every now and again vs. just the same few always being at the top
someone always has to be the worst
cinder relic
My friend for example plays warrior, and he's very upset at how bad the class tree is and he's said "has a class tree ever been this bad before" and I had to explain him about DF rogue
Like fury has to drop dps talents to gain their major defensive rn
quiet ore
We haven't been meta in 4 years
And because of it we're going to get an off-cycle rework again, and we're gonna be good for the back half of a tier when there's less reason to care, I know, I get it
cinder relic
And their class tree has a really bad shape and pathing
random stirrup
I actually think warrior is a great example of tuning excluding nerubar, they have very obvious ebbs and flows, good tiers up and bad tiers down, never really dead last or top
minor thorn
Or DF druid class tree
random stirrup
should be an example to work off of
minor thorn
Turbo ass
cinder relic
They were kinda unplayable in mfo
grim spear
we could just compare patch note word counts instead
Pretty obvious whether anyone actually cares about this spec
cinder relic
Like mfo was a 0 dps warrior tier as well
random stirrup
They were kinda unplayable in mfo
fury had decent st but yeah they couldn't really leverage burst
cinder relic
U played prot warrior cuz dps warrior was completely worthless
Until it got buffed
Then it was a st merchant and like, fineish
But for prog, similar to hunter. It was a 0 of
gaunt phoenix
i took way too long to discern what mfo means
cinder relic
Lawl
long barn
It’s over fam