So I have to redo it all
#outlaw
eternal hound
OH THANK GOD
craggy barn
eternal hound
Thank you so much kind stranger
eternal hound
Huh
Now interesting new problwm
whatever the hell this is needs to go
Easier but....why
lime lake
yeah you can import group settings but the abilities and buffs still need to be sorted manually
jolly geyser
Neat
foggy cove
tiny onyx
Was anyone else getting CP lag in raid today, it was pretty bad for me
river wing
voidlashed hood in vault, with socket
yeah baybee, we gamin
carmine mountain
gg lucky vault
next wedge
NOOO HANK DONT ABBREIVIATE COMBO POINTS
fluid meadow
hooly, 2,8% is this real? the 0,3% seems valid but the neck?
eternal hound
hooly, 2,8% is this real? the 0,3% seems valid but the neck?
what's your current
Link sim if you want help
light kernel
heart of wind or tier chest?
fluid meadow
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ktmbrVcJVJ7ytSyxp64KGg new sim with zero stuff only flask for haste cap, surely it's neck angle cause crafted wrist is not that bad compared to this vault item, neck is very heavy crit, but 2,8% seems so much
thin fiber
heart of wind or tier chest?
i would go for trinket(esp if you dont raid), chest is easier to get imo
light kernel
i would go for trinket(esp if you dont raid), chest is easier to get imo
i simmed it, its same as 263 crucible lol
ill only farm dreamrift myth
long term gaze/solarflame ig
thin fiber
i simmed it, its same as 263 crucible lol
ahhh most likely coz you wont benefit from the haste
sour root
Guys how bad is latch’s crooked hook? Just started rogue and that was the only slot I managed to get in vault before reset. It’s myth track, and I won’t be raiding on this char at all. According to liquid armory it’s good on 5t, but I’d rather listen to your opinions. Thank You in advance
fathom bramble
the theoretical damage on that is probably not something you'll ever get in practice
the sim assumes it hits every target with the hook
but that may not realistically ever happen especially on a large pack
sour root
So I guess it’s crest saving vault then
inland meteor
should i prio upgrading ilvl on my offhand dagger (even if its bad stats) or go for other items in vault
hasty warren
Hi pirates
native quiver
Hi pirates
do you mean "the only rouge class with skill expression"?
next wedge
who has the outlaw??? you have been remvoed from the party pic
hasty warren
do you mean "the only rouge class with skill expression"?
if u can still call this "skill expression"
native quiver
if u can still call this "skill expression"
more than 50% uptime assassination and the play itself sub spec
haughty wigeon
if u can still call this "skill expression"
i can
cause larry lfr still seeths about outlaw and blames rtb for his own failings
hasty warren
bfa gameplay spam rtb until getting good buffs
arctic hollow
I... I dont know, this is scary
native quiver
I... I dont know, this is scary
do you already have an ainseer?
arctic hollow
I don't, but I clear hm every week in guild and aim to push as far as possible in Myth, so it feels wrong to pick something i can loot over a myth prism or head with socket (fetid, crit vers)
maybe i'm just trolling
balmy topaz
I don't, but I clear hm every week in guild and aim to push as far as possible i...
What are your trinkets atm
arctic hollow
champ prism and champ crucible
I farmed Windrunner and Skyreach for HM track but no luck yet
balmy topaz
Crit vers head which is okay
arctic hollow
Socket Helmet crit vers
soft abyss
you have myth head?
arctic hollow
two tracks above what i currently wear
balmy topaz
O
arctic hollow
i have the same in champ
soft abyss
ah lol
balmy topaz
Would be myth seat helm
balmy topaz
Top left has garbage stats
arctic hollow
Would be myth seat helm
Yeah i remember your vault of last week
soft abyss
just cata no?
balmy topaz
Yeah i remember your vault of last week
balmy topaz
just cata no?
Cata helm has grabage stats
sour root
Guys if I’m just starting to gear should I craft 1h mh, ring and boots and hope for next weeks dagger in vault and if not then craft dagger, or would you go with 2x wep craft
balmy topaz
We want off piece helm
soft abyss
ilvl is so much better though
saving crests this early in the season is a gain i think
like you can craft an extra item eventually
balmy topaz
ilvl is so much better though
He's 100% got the capacity to spend and extra 20 crests
on a better statted helm
If he's in champ gear
he'll have plenty of mythic crests
soft abyss
What is the sim difference between this helm and the seat one ? is it more than 0.5 ?
balmy topaz
What is the sim difference between this helm and the seat one ? is it more than ...
Raid helm or crit vers one?
soft abyss
all of these 3 options
arctic hollow
I already have 3 crafts and 6/6 gloves with 3o leftover so i'm fine on crests
The helm sims 1.3 higher
it's only .2 under Alnseer
balmy topaz
The helm sims 1.3 higher
Sim the 2 helms at 289 with each other (raid and crit vers one
arctic hollow
soft abyss
Sim only the helmets. I would sim all 3
arctic hollow
everything maxed
soft abyss
these 2 and the seat one
balmy topaz
I presume you're going for chim mythic this week?
arctic hollow
Yeah we are
arctic hollow
It''s just that we are starving for the alnseer so it also feel selfish to pass on it
Then again starting next week i can vault it
soft abyss
also you have chance at vault next week though. Especially if you have killed like 3 bosses gaze has a good chance
fluid meadow
Ye then don't go for that
also weekly quest is hc loot so more chance for hc gaze
balmy topaz
Trueee
arctic hollow
Thank you very much for the advice everyone
holding for now
Damn even for offspec (assa for Crown) Vilecrown sims higher than everything
tropic zephyr
I... I dont know, this is scary
banger tho
i'm simming dreadflail bludgeon 289 vs krick 289 to even know which spec to open the vault with
jolly geyser
The kirk dagger
tropic zephyr
I don't do MM so vault is my only source of getting 289 gear
I can't get a weap in raid
timid portal
its kinda crazy that 276 plume sims worse than 263 gaze
elder sonnet
Gaze sims the best out of everything for me as well
elder sonnet
So is void plume simming better for you?
timid portal
i mean the void one is bis
since its crit
so it will prob be higher
since light gives mastery and void crit
manic quartz
is outlaw loot spec generally the play if u dont mythic raid?
timid portal
is outlaw loot spec generally the play if u dont mythic raid?
do you have mythic mh?
manic quartz
crafted
arctic hollow
Assa/Sub weapon loot pool is also smaller so it increases the chance to get a trinket or a nice piece in m+ vault
river wing
Assa/Sub weapon loot pool is also smaller so it increases the chance to get a tr...
one would think so, but I think there's like 3 or 4 outlaw weapons in M+ this season, and 3 daggers
so it's not really any different
ok no, there's 5 outlaw weapons, so it's 2 more items in the pool of around 50, IG
arctic hollow
I counted, 5 slow, 3 daggers. in m+, didnt check raid
It is kinda negligible i agree
But we're gamblers aren't we
river wing
yeah
and guess who won the lottery
I did!
(myth MH first week)
river wing
yea it's gonna be all downhill from here xD
got a myth MH and a myth head+native socket
still don't have a hero neck or trinks tho...zero luck in Pit/Skyreach
clever wasp
timid portal
So is void plume simming better for you?
sims higher
true dust
are we cooked now with the tuning or is it fine?
river wing
half-baked
still playable but none of the issues are solved
true dust
the issues are mostly numbers right?
true dust
true
timid portal
energy bad
river wing
energy isn't bad but frankly the fact that it reminds you of itself like once every 10 minutes is maddening
cinder relic
the issues are mostly numbers right?
Raid is very bad for melee. Rogue does nothing unique to offset this fundamental weakness of the raid in general
Low target cleave is an exceptional weakness but only really matters on paladins
Numbers aren't going to fix this problem, broadly speaking
river wing
and the issue with energy is basically that there's really no point to energy atm
assa's energy is just a limitation without a purpose (blizz try to force pooling but offer no reward, you "pool" to do basic filler again)
outlaw's energy is borderline infinite UNLESS you fall through or have downtime, which means that you get extra punished for playing poorly (and that already has tons of punishment anyway)
sub's energy doesn't matter because you have infinite in burst and you do nothing important out of burst
cinder relic
But I mean, another 4%+ every week or two will help lol
This is how energy has literally always been at a fundamental level for literally over 10 years
It's just outlaw is too low, but that doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of tuning rn
river wing
yeh energy is an old thing
cinder relic
It's not though
What do u want energy to do lmao
It's a resource that you spend talents to solve, and ideally, doesn't get in the way. The tradeoff is that you don't have a hasted gcd
river wing
I mean
it hasn't had a proper purpose in a long while aside from sometimes on Assa when there's real reasons to pool
cinder relic
It has a purpose though
It's a balancing factor for not having a haste scaling gcd
It guides the decision making of the rotation sometimes, it also guides how to talent and itemize
river wing
ok but why is Monk/DH not having to really deal with it
despite having the same 1s GCD?
river wing
hmmm
ok yeah I was sure havoc was 1s also
cinder relic
Sin is gated by energy by design. Sometimes pooling matters more or less.
Outlaw has effectively infinite energy when played well, as a reward. The issue rn is that energy feels too icky on really unlucky streaks and lower target counts without haste
Sub has infinite energy in Cd's and shit energy outside of. Again this is by design and forces you to "solve energy" via talents and cements outside and inside of dance feeling different
unkempt dew
So are the buffs any good?
cinder relic
I mean its a buff
river wing
well, currently Sub doesn't even really have to solve anything, you just pick up Relentless and that's about it IIRC
no need for vigor or tea
cinder relic
So are the buffs any good?
4% more st POG
river wing
well not my biological bro, just a v good friend
wintry solar
My ex heals with hpal, she's my little pocket healer.
unkempt dew
well not my biological bro, just a v good friend
Count as bro imo
wintry solar
It's nice having someone in a leadership role
wintry solar
I used to have a tank friend but he stopped logging on 
unkempt dew
Aah damn
wintry solar
Sometimes I wonder if I'm the friend that stopped logging on one day
wintry solar
Did you show your kid Monsters Inc yet?
unkempt dew
Haha not yet, she is 2 years old. But loves to smash my keyboard
wintry solar
Perfect, get her in a raid on ret immediately
river wing
but anyway
the way I see Outlaw as a new-ish convert, it's not any one huge issue (aside from maybe cleave scaling like shit)
but a lot of small interactions that are counterproductive to each other
i.e. as a few basic examples
- SnD is only applied on Dispatch, but Dispatch is used to reduce BtE CD, so it would flow much better if you opened with BtE and it applied SnD also
- Apex stacks are only applied on Dispatch, but one of the best Outlaw mechs is the Ace reset, which delays apex usage because you aren't Dispatching
- full power of BtE is dependent on Zero In, but our BtE resets do not preserve Zero In stacks, so the extra BtE is just weaker (it's still strong but it doesn't synergize nearly as well with the critdam x3 talent)
- Ace doesn't reset into another instant BtE, which technically helps with 3 but not really because you aren't stacking 20 Zero Ins in two GCDs, so all it does it break the flow
- Prep being what it is, well-discussed here already
mighty pivot
nr 2 seems very much intentional, to normalise the amount of bte resets you get. The annoying part of it is that it's still rng even if you finish at 7. If they increased the amount of bullets needed for a reset to 7, and made it guaranteed to earn a bullet at 5-6cp it would play better imo
river wing
yeah probs
I end up sending a fresh BtE at 5 apex stacks distressingly often
at least the cap isn't 6 but 10, so you can actually do that without losing damage
mighty pivot
also a nice qol change would be to introduce a buff that you get when you reach 6 stacks. It's way more convenient than having to track the number of bullet stacks you have
carmine seal
What is your guys adverage st damage? And overall damage in a +10 m+?
I need a bench mark and seeing im dog shit at this spec or not
north sapphire
What is your guys adverage st damage? And overall damage in a +10 m+?
~80k DPS Overall
carmine seal
~80k DPS Overall
Hmm I see im only doing like 70-80 in +7-8s I see my buddy and hes doing 120k. Is it just outlaw rogue?
surreal latch
Outlaw rogue is much better in higher keys imo where packs are loooooooong
north sapphire
Hmm I see im only doing like 70-80 in +7-8s I see my buddy and hes doing 120k. I...
Yeah, outlaw, i checked last log from terrace 10 it was 102k overall and ~71% parse
light mountain
can we js make snd auto apply on smth other than dispatch js like every other rogue spec
neat mist
can we js make snd auto apply on smth other than envenom js like every other rogue spec
surreal latch
can we js make snd auto apply on smth other than eviscerate js like every other rogue spec
river wing
What is your guys adverage st damage? And overall damage in a +10 m+?
like 100k overalls, but ST is maybe 55-60 on a good day
river wing
Hmm I see im only doing like 70-80 in +7-8s I see my buddy and hes doing 120k. I...
what spec is your buddy
oh yeah that would do it, rets basically have all/most of (depending on build) their CDs every 30s which is every pack in +10s
which means you're seeing none of your benefits (long-term sustained DPS on a low-movement target) and all of his benefits (CDs that get to reset between packs if used with a modicum of foresight)
hollow temple
vague cape
but anyway
the way I see Outlaw as a new-ish convert, it's not any one huge issu...
Ngl dude, they need to just get rid of SnD again, pointless spell, creates a very simple binary skill check that just feels bad for the rogue involved.
I think zero in is a way for them to have bad luck protection for BtE while limiting how highroll it could go.
I fully agree the ace changes are criminal and whoever decided you can’t just send BtE whenever it procs is anti-fun
river wing
Ngl dude, they need to just get rid of SnD again, pointless spell, creates a ver...
frankly SnD could just be a passive, idk why it's pressable
idk if zero in works as BLP, you stack it to full in like 6 seconds which means it applies on every BtE but the resets
vague cape
Just so long as it can never stack to max between resets it’s enough
The power of the spell is clearly dependant on critting and zero in guarantees it
river wing
tbh it'd be an interesting thing if it stacked way higher but increased Ace chance by 1% for every 5 stacks after 20 or smth
vague cape
And stops outlaw running away with the show if you get tons of resets
You get the cdr but not the raw damage
river wing
yeah I get it, but still feels kinda...eh
idk, I just don't like this kind of design very much
vague cape
It’s the same reason the -5s cdr bte talent isn’t good
Suffers diminishing returns of bte cast frequency bc of zero in
Overall it’s odd
The dmg amp portion of bte rewards casts
But zero in goes directly against that
I think the spec is due another look this expac, maybe a .5 patch
river wing
doesn't look like a .5 patch atm (since .5 is seemingly finished already?), maybe .1 if anything
final pagoda
Did anyone confirm if changes went live ?
swift moon
!fuu
ornate heathBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
whole storm
guys does BTE falls under the same finisher rule for dispatch ? or it must always 7 combo points ?
wintry solar
6 or 7
wintry solar
With SS
wintry solar
Perhaps....
quiet root
What is your guys adverage st damage? And overall damage in a +10 m+?
110-145k overall depending on dungeon, pug teammates, luck, and how well i'm playing (272 ilvl), st i don't look at but i think it's like 70k ish
glass shard
am i terrible at the game or is the delve boss just tough
i get hsit on after like 5 auto attacks
wintry solar
You call?
worldly shale
am i terrible at the game or is the delve boss just tough
its a stat check, i did do it at like 250ilvl tho
was hard
lost condor
yummy
worldly shale
im 271 and i just die to straight auto attacks
what level val and what curios u got on her, u have to spec elusiveness and feint his basic attacks
CQQAByFP3pExAEG41/8+e6b8fDgx2MGjZMzsNzMzMzMmFYmZbaZw2MAAAAAgZbZmZGmZmZGzMz2AAAAwAYwsNbmZmRzMbMbssNtwCDwMzMzAD
this was my talent tree
when i did it
glass shard
what level val and what curios u got on her, u have to spec elusiveness and fein...
shes like level 18
xdd
worldly shale
mine was similar ye, probably like 22
glass shard
curios idk
wintry solar
CQQAByFP3pExAEG41/8+e6b8fDgx2MGjZMzsNzMzMzMmFYmZbaZw2MAAAAAgZbZmZGmZmZGzMz2AAAAw...
Was smashing your face on the keyboard necessary
worldly shale
Was smashing your face on the keyboard necessary
since i cant outlaw in raid, i use every opportunity to smash my face on my keyboard
worldly shale
ill just close eyes and 1 shot it on that
thats probably 15 times easier yes
i just hate myself
glass shard
since i cant outlaw in raid, i use every opportunity to smash my face on my keyb...
mickeymousemaxxing
worldly shale
so i did it on outlaw
worldly shale
that would probably be more fun
wintry solar
since i cant outlaw in raid, i use every opportunity to smash my face on my keyb...
Based tbh
worldly shale
then specing s*b
wintry solar
Fury has more complexity these days lmao
old socket
so guys, i need you to focus all your brain power
old socket
i know the answer will be "sim yourself" but this vault has really stunned me
ring or trinket
worldly shale
ring or trinket
sim yourself
worldly shale
i mean unironically its sim urself xd
neither are bis
old socket
i mean ring should be it no? i can sim myself but i can get a better hero trinket i think
gaunt phoenix
Neck might be good later when you approach crit cap and want some vers somewhere
gaunt phoenix
If it's hero track then it's fine
still matrix
Heart of wind maxed sims worse than rep trinket xD could be socket angle
gaunt phoenix
Then you're just gonna get a better ring spamming keys
old socket
some people dies of thirst while others drown
still matrix
Mythic helm is fine
I have maxed out crit haste helm on hero track, already simmed against it.
I have legs from BOE catalyst on myth track
the helm could win out but like, ive got other stuff with good stats on myth track ill be maxing first anyway
so may as well take socket
can you add a 2nd socket to a crafted ring?
my belt already has socket 
vivid vessel
and the issue with energy is basically that there's really no point to energy at...
its not infinite tho tf you mean
you are out of energy in 1 min on a 2 target fight
outlaw has never been that way
river wing
you are out of energy in 1 min on a 2 target fight
yeah as soon as you gotta cleave the balance is fucked
like pure ST is almost fine, any constant cleave is garbo
vivid vessel
pure st is also not almost fine
its fine in raid for short fights
cause you start at 3 tea
try a key boss without starting at 3 tea
tell me its fine
river wing
idk
I guess the saying would be
"it's fine until it suddenly isn't"
like you can get enough ARs and BRs to keep stuff together if you get 3+ on RtB all the time
but whenever a 2 is rolled you feel it with energy
anyway I'm not saying it's good, that's for sure, but it is bearable most of the time
it could be a lot better tho yeah
vivid vessel
and im sayinmg its never been this bad
and pretending its fine
every season
is getting annoying
it was the same in s3 tww
energy was never this bad
and we all acted like it was fine
are we gonna continue
till we are assa
or what
river wing
idk
like my point in that initial post you replied to
is that functionally
Outlaw doesn't even want to have energy as a resource, other than "you get hit with this if you're bad" purposes, which is honestly extraneous bc there's a lot of shit you lose on outlaw if you're bad anyway
vivid vessel
and i think energy would be entirely fine if it was a skill check
like intended
except its clearly not anymore
its now a frustration point for everyone
you can be the best player in the world you run out of energy after 1 min
static crescent
Finally can drink coffed while playing outlaw
old socket
luckily you get to autoattack which is your third source of damage
when you have no energy
peak
"blade flurry refunds energy if it hits 3 or less targets" was too hard to think of
proven ocean
If u say the spec is fine ur basically asking for devs to not do any changes
Keep on coping anti doomers
@vivid vessel thoughts?
old socket
who is saying the spec is fine?
old socket
spec hasnt been this bad since shadowlands
in shadowlands they wanted you to pickpocket certain mobs to get your phial and other stuff, don't forget who is making decisions for this class
wintry solar
in shadowlands they wanted you to pickpocket certain mobs to get your phial and ...
Well that didn't happen and I'm still waiting for that
I'm pretty sure S1 SL wasn't this bad either
proven ocean
I'm pretty sure S1 SL wasn't this bad either
It was
carmine mountain
The spec is so shit its the first time in... I dont know how long that im thinking of swapping spec or class but hey you do you right!
proven ocean
A huge downgrade from bfa
I’d argue that sl s1 outlaw was even worse
Most of u guys didnt play bfa anyway
carmine mountain
I did
but yeah man we'll see, the good thing is sin stats are crit haste so changing might not be too bad but yeah it sucks.
old socket
Most of u guys didnt play bfa anyway
i did and it was the best time of my life
outlaw, dh and demo lock were so peak
river wing
sub is for days when I don't want to bother or think, just get things done asap and log off
gaunt phoenix
worldly shale
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/124169701881282560/1110305168328765440/...
thank you i will use this
river wing
outlaw is for when I'm trying to have whatever fun remains
gaunt phoenix
ive been playing 2 ace like on ptr
and you end up at 5cp with 6 opportunity a bit
and you're like welp
guess i opp here
river wing
If u say the spec is fine ur basically asking for devs to not do any changes
I am doomy enough that I'm already expecting the next big (i.e. actually potent rather than the presented 0.5 ace change) changes to be on 13.0 beta
quick quail
its now a frustration point for everyone
I got so frustrated by the energy on high m+ bosses I literally rerolled to survival green boi wielding daggers having a blast now. It has raid buff, it has hero, it has simple yet fun buff jugling mechs. Wake me up when Sptem...I mean frustration ends.
proven ocean
Issue is that a defensive costs dps
Makes feint one of the worst defensives in the game
Let alone it being strictly aoe and so short duration making it extremely niche
river wing
I mean
who doesn't play Elus these days
but yeah, it costing energy is like
a downgrade compared to Cataclysm days
in general, Rogue seems like the class that keeps by far the least of the stuff it was given over the years, and unlike shit like Rune of Power that was just cancer to play, it's for no real reason
daring yoke
Can they make feint, bf and rtb cost 0 energy? 😭
vivid vessel
I mean
who doesn't play Elus these days
i mean ye but
river wing
I mean they can
will they? don't think so
vivid vessel
even with elus
gaunt phoenix
deft could be like +2 energy per target instead of the +30 flat
if they really wanted it
vivid vessel
do you know that 20% dr is absically what most specs have in term of passive dr + passive bonus health
river wing
do you know that 20% dr is absically what most specs have in term of passive dr ...
you know
I run with at least one hunter most of the time
lads just die to everything
idk if they're just dumb or if that's a hunter thing
vivid vessel
maybe he just is bad
river wing
but yeah, any plate class just has 20% phys reduction built in over us
DKs have like 15% magic DR passively at least in one hero spec
old socket
bruh hunters have like tanks hp
river wing
ye
vivid vessel
and thats all the dr rogue has
you cannot count this since its rng
similar to this
cant count rng things
so pressing feint with elus just brings us to what half the specs in the game have in term of passive dr
old socket
fact is like monk, you used to have vers in your gear, now you dont, so you just get hitted hard
vivid vessel
feint last 6s and cost all of your energy
- we have 0 self healing
most specs have way more
glass mortar
zac...
feints so op zac......
i dont have the energy to press my buttons but its ok because feint is so op..
river wing
+ we have 0 self healing
b-b-but they're gonna add a talent that drops 50% of crimson vial's CD on killing blow
isn't that GREAT
that's like half of impending victory on warrior!!!!
vivid vessel
feints so op zac......
ye feint is op when hit is aoe
when hit is not aoe you are now the squishiest spec in the game spamming a defensive with 4s duration that eats all your energy
and you have to remove a cheat death to do that
but ye feint is very op guys
broken tangle
it's not op but it's as good as you can make it
i really prefer that over other class' defensives
civic zephyr
when hit is not aoe you are now the squishiest spec in the game spamming a defen...
yeah the eating of the energy is dumb af....like if they just made it free and work for any hit and put it on the gcd to balance it abit i'd be happy
vivid vessel
you dont have a defensive
ye being on the gcd i would rather not
defensives on the gcd feels like absolute ass cheeks
broken tangle
i mean making it a skill without a cd again is an option
civic zephyr
you know what true we are not tanks screw that idea.
vivid vessel
especially when the defensive is that low duration
broken tangle
but makes things very complicated in pvp
vivid vessel
i mean idc about pvp
broken tangle
i mean i do...
vivid vessel
ye well the issue is
its a different games
what is needed in pve isnt needed in pvp
river wing
sometimes it feels like pvp is part of what's screwing Rogue over
vivid vessel
and im kinda tired of being fucked over by pvp
river wing
bc they're too afraid to make kits TOO different between pvp and pve
glass mortar
outlaws not a real spec in pvp either so
vivid vessel
just ignore the game mode and tune it after
vivid vessel
who cares about pvp
chilly lake
Rogues can't be good in every patch of every expansion
Maybe it's time to go check another class bois
broken tangle
also playing a "rogue" and complaining your class is screwed over pvp is funny
it's literally the original pvp spec
glass mortar
y is it funny
vivid vessel
pve game
glass mortar
sure but they havent had pvp specs in this game since cataclysm
so thats not rlly relevant
obsidian crow
Hello guys, have a question regarding our Apex Talent, is it ok to BtE even if I have 1CP but I have the proc of the APEX ?
vivid vessel
pve game
broken tangle
rogue still is what most players consider a pvp class
gaunt phoenix
Hello guys, have a question regarding our Apex Talent, is it ok to BtE even if I...
No you still build cps
glass mortar
sure but we dont care what most players consider we care what the game devs consider
river wing
Maybe it's time to go check another class bois
idc about other classes
this game has like five interesting specs and two of them are on rogue, the other two are on warr, and one is on mage
wow class fantasy is a sham
glass mortar
pvp has its own templates and mods they can always change the way things work in pvp only quite easily
pvp should have no impact on pve balancing
vivid vessel
game would be way better if pvp was deleted
old gull
Wrong
chilly lake
pvp is an afterthought and ruins the game
PvP is just harder part of the game that no normie dares to come into because they will get obliterated by ppl who have 20 years of exeperience
chilly lake
game would be way better if pvp was deleted
No.
obsidian crow
No you still build cps
so lets assume, I just BtE with 6cp, it's going on Cooldown, then I have a proc, so the cooldowns end. I first built CP before BtE again ?
vivid vessel
pvp enjoyers go back to your singular channel no one goes to
gaunt phoenix
so lets assume, I just BtE with 6cp, it's going on Cooldown, then I have a proc,...
yes
old gull
There is nothing like wow PvP out there. You can pve in literally every game.
vivid vessel
most games are pvp
glass mortar
theres nothing like wow pve either
vivid vessel
idk what you mean
glass mortar
thats why its stuck around so long
vivid vessel
legit every competitive game is pvp
old gull
theres nothing like wow pve either
🤝
river wing
rogue still is what most players consider a pvp class
and that's an issue because the last time pvp was remotely relevant to the rest of the game was more than a decade ago
glass mortar
how did this even turn into pve vs pvp
vivid vessel
ye idk
glass mortar
its not like pvp has anything to do with why outlaw sucks rn
outlaw just got like 16% buffs in pvp
vivid vessel
everyone knows pvp is irrelevant and cringe
broken tangle
you guys don't even have anything remotely reasonable to say
glass mortar
they removed its whole pvp kit
old gull
how did this even turn into pve vs pvp
Becuase you got one guy saying if wow PvP was deleted the game would be better and wonder why
broken tangle
im out
vivid vessel
its reasonable to want pvp to be removed in a pve game
thick vigil
Another based Zac take
chilly lake
everyone knows pvp is irrelevant and cringe
just because you dont have fingers to play it doesnt mean it's bad
old gull
Just a dogshit take
old gull
They should make PvP gear scale to mythic
gaunt phoenix
pvp discourse in current year
glass mortar
u still would....
vivid vessel
our class tree is filled with pvp only talents no one cares about
and they cant give us more thinigs becuase pvp
glass mortar
useless talents r on purpose lets be real... thered just be 3% SS damage there or something
vivid vessel
if pvp didnt exist kidney wouldnt cost cps
true fact btw
true and real take
no fake
sullen walrus
23.30% haste with flask and 33 crit its good?
glass mortar
kidney has always cost CP tho zac... i thought pvp was a minigame they added
sullen walrus
or need to be 25% haste?
gaunt phoenix
its fine
vivid vessel
23.30% haste with flask and 33 crit its good?
in pvp or pve?
sullen walrus
pve
vivid vessel
kidney has always cost CP tho zac... i thought pvp was a minigame they added
they added it too early ye
unfortunate
old gull
Hey how did that 5man dungeons only game turn out?
unique fulcrum
how big was the assa buff
river wing
don't have anything against pvp in general
but the way wow does it is cringe, because pvp and pve keep affecting each other
just make entirely separate pvp kits for arenas/bgs and stop trying to revive world pvp
vivid vessel
<@352916297262301194> bro! i did more dmg than u in +16 xD it's called me a cham...
gg cuh
sullen walrus
my logs are 99 not like ur 100
vivid vessel
pvp even ruined spell data
how far will it go
now you need to be an advanced mathematician to calculate your aura buffs
cause of pvp
another reason to nuke that gamemode
vivid vessel
why
chilly lake
curious
vivid vessel
you gonna flame me cause im low io ?
silver knoll
Kek
chilly lake
I just wanna see how hard have you tried to go on PvE aspect of the game
chilly lake
sure
vivid vessel
gaunt phoenix
kinda funny point if zac wasnt literally rank 1 outlaw lmao
thick vigil
Lmfao
chilly lake
you play at top lvl of the game and complain that spac is bad?
weary goblet
these are not causal factors
vivid vessel
you play at top lvl of the game and complain that spac is bad?
what ?
river wing
smh
low io, "you don't play top end, you don't know shit"
high io, "you play at the top level just fine and still complain"
can't win
silver knoll
he is living proof that class is doing fine xd
Lol
vivid vessel
clueless
silver knoll
Wtf u mean
vivid vessel
we can actually boost 19s rn even
light kernel
wait even there outlaw is shit
sullen walrus
kinda funny point if zac wasnt literally rank 1 outlaw lmao
outlaw who has the highest rio - ye
outlaw who did more dmg - let's see let's see xD
thick vigil
smh
low io, "you don't play top end, you don't know shit"
high io, "you play at ...
Based
still matrix
Is crucible broken or something in raidbots? Simming heroic last boss trinket still sims lower than it, even plume is barely an upgrade
vivid vessel
its jsut very good
river wing
Is crucible broken or something in raidbots? Simming heroic last boss trinket st...
it's basically a hero trinket in disguise
vivid vessel
legit had the smae io in s3 tww and you could ask anyone outlaw was prolly the worse spec in the game at that point
its just not relevant whne you have a team of good players
you can still figure it out
doesnt mean its balanced
honest sparrow
and its fun seeing the tank of the group posting screenshots in here beating the oultaw player
vivid vessel
i can open league leaderboards rn and i will see some one tricks playing random bad champs at the top aswell
shouldnt be an argument for tuning
that some people are willing to play bad things and stick to it
vivid vessel
ye i did a key on zacrebleu
silver knoll
its just not relevant whne you have a team of good players
You being the one in top 100 Raider.io with outlaw = Looks balanced
gaunt phoenix
huge
vivid vessel
ty
serene urchin
we are getting ace and aoe blind only no
sullen walrus
bro, in +16 ws lock did 140k overall , me 157k lol
vivid vessel
i redid the sims after with the real numbers solo
sullen walrus
we're meta?????
vivid vessel
was -0.2
gaunt phoenix
huge
vivid vessel
yuh
quiet ore
bro, in +16 ws lock did 140k overall , me 157k lol
is the 3rd, unmentioned dps an aug?
quiet ore
no skyfury buff, even
civic zephyr
Maybe its just me but i feel like this kindergarten chart kinda dipcts what needs to happen if we are lookat the top players of their spec in the game. I do believe in looking at the TOP player damage numbers and then scaling it with that because its a consistant approach and everythign after will just fall in line. If ass rouge is bottom tier and we give them aand all the classes in the section a 10% buff they will still be bottom tier(ofc idk the exact % numbers but that is my example) so idk why we it's so difficult. They are not going to magically become rank 1 and do more dmg than DH's or Demo Locks. If they want the classes at the bottom why don't we keep them at the bottom just not so much so they are this bad..
river wing
looking at max or even 95% is a mistake IMO
75-80% is more reasonable, it's basically people who figured out how to play the spec properly but are not necessarily the best in the world at it - the actual playerbase, really
civic zephyr
If that is the case i'd argue you should then just nerf the top 3 or 4 specs and then only buff ele sham and bm hunter and that puts rouges in a pretty good spot
river wing
If that is the case i'd argue you should then just nerf the top 3 or 4 specs and...
hardly a good spot for a pure DPS class with no utility
like with the current design, logically, no rogue spec should ever be below the median
also mythic is too early to look at, very few people even got past paladins
vivid vessel
civic zephyr
Why is ass rouge so high up what changed?
clever wasp
Maybe its just me but i feel like this kindergarten chart kinda dipcts what need...
tell me u have no idea how to look at logs without telling me u have no idea how to look at logs
clever wasp
Why is ass rouge so high up what changed?
nothing changed, they are doing thier job aka boss dmg
river wing
Why is ass rouge so high up what changed?
just hit boss, ignore padding
basically the same stuff as it did in TWW
clever wasp
thats why those statistics are absolutely irrelevant
because its just pad dmg that (still needs to happen) but the top specs just shine at it
vivid vessel
assa boss damage in overall data is just fake news
you take first boss they are prolly the only spec in the game sitting on boss like rats
river wing
or do m+ for a hero helm tbh
gaunt phoenix
you could
clever wasp
get a hero helm
glass shard
or do m+ for a hero helm tbh
i have been
gaunt phoenix
just loot it !
glass shard
back to the seat +10 mines
glass shard
which is like
seat, caverns, MT
seat probably easiest out of the 3 anyway
quiet root
at this point I'd do anything with a helm
why bother doing anything but seat unless you're perma declined?
river wing
seat probably easiest out of the 3 anyway
eh MT is a cakewalk IMO
glass shard
ye agree
but u can get iq checked in mt easier in pug si think
esp in 10
with diceroll (pun intended) teammates
quiet ore
back to the seat +10 mines
just get a myth helm from vault 🙂
river wing
why bother doing anything but seat unless you're perma declined?
well at this point orri is - yeah, perma seat is logical
river wing
just get a myth helm from vault 🙂
yeah I did that, idk what's so hard about it /s
lucid sparrow
am i overkilling it on crit
clever wasp
sim urself and u will find out
river wing
damn dawg
I just hit 40% total without flask, idk, maybe sim some replacements
quiet ore
am i overkilling it on crit
a little, but honestly, it's not terrible to go overkill on - mono-crit is only a few % behind a more even crit/haste split
halcyon egret
!prekey
ornate heathBOT
- Use
Adrenaline Rush to activate 
Loaded Dice. - As Trickster, use
KS to activate 
Disorienting Strikes. - Do NOT use
RTB before the key, you will lose it. - Use
SND during the bubble once the key starts.
mystic berry
Last I simmed, haste falls on dps gains very quickly post 20
Like, below mastery even
So more crit cant hurt
carmine seal
Quick question when they say 20% haste does that mean when you open up your character panel or when you hover over the haste and it says a different value?
river wing
char panel
you have some haste from talents which isn't factored into the hovering tooltip but affects your character correctly in regards to why you're getting haste (AR GCD speed and energy regen)
river wing
gj
zinc briar
its time to go 5 outlaw rogues in raid?
glass shard
always has been
river wing
we are the best class before buff
I try not to think about damage anymore
I'm in your raid and you gotta suffer me
that's how it is
coral wyvern
Comparison is the killer of joy
I like the SFX, the gambla and pirate theme, and thats enough for me
I will BtE my way through
prisma heron
I love the outlaw theme. I loved the tier set that looks like a skeleton undead thing.
But this season i race changed to high Tauren and I hate the way that set looks ok it
zinc briar
If i have sword and boots crafted with embellishment and now i have to craft dagger, should i remove embellishment of boots to put on dagger? please help
gaunt phoenix
it probably is slightly better
In raidbots top gear you can sim this
in item search, add 285 farstrider's mercy dagger
then click the + to generate an embellished version
then on your boots, click the + to generate a version without an embellishment
then you have it all in your bags and can run it
or give me your /simc i can do it
zinc briar
ok ill do it when i arrive to home thanks
but seems like sword + dagger embellishment is better
many ppl is removing from boots to add dagger emb
north sapphire
If i have sword and boots crafted with embellishment and now i have to craft dag...
You can remove embelishment from already crafted item?
zinc briar
yes, recraafting
river wing
yeah by recrafting it with a keychain
near rock
280 boys rise up
gaunt phoenix
clickable raidbuffs
formal thunder
onyx crane
final pagoda
are the changes live on raidbots?
frank hamlet
im at 25% haste and im out of energy at min 1:30 :))
zinc briar
also in wlogs, u cant see how bosses are full of outlaws on the top of the list
zinc briar
im at 25% haste and im out of energy at min 1:30 :))
You have to add some sugar to tea
Not giving you enough power
hazy temple
How is my myth bracers siming way higher than a myth off-hand? I feel like i read someone saying off-hand dagger had high value? Cap?
for reference
clear tulip
socket
hazy temple
is socket really that big?
proven ocean
No
Well it is but
U leave it for last when ur full bis
Yes generally offhand is a stronger upgrade
What are the stats of both anyway
hazy temple
what would you guys do? wrist is bis crit haste from dungeon, dagger is haste vers
keen belfry
How is my myth bracers siming way higher than a myth off-hand? I feel like i rea...
it has higher value relative to non dagger off hand, off hands dont give much stat, and their weap dps doesnt affect our dps really that much
hazy temple
although the second boss already drops crit haste bracers which should be easy to farm
proven ocean
Haste and crit fall off after a certain value
So if ur stats will reach that breakpoint easily
Then that dagger is technically also bis
keen belfry
that ring is giga but you kinda need the haste neck or ring that are rare, its kinda a piss vault no cap
proven ocean
You need to understand stats not just giving it a strict crit haste value
frank hamlet
i'd go for the myth ring if it is bis
hazy temple
You need to understand stats not just giving it a strict crit haste value
i realize, but rings and neck give the most secondary stats anyway
frank hamlet
one slot to not think about
hazy temple
im at 21% haste curently
keen belfry
without the haste ring from lura or neck from crown u kinda cant hit haste witht hat ring
keen belfry
no he has the bracers
ty i should read
near rock
the reason it sims so high is because you have this and you're adding a new color
hazy temple
it does have socket
keen belfry
i mconfused
hazy temple
in great vault
proven ocean
Listen
frank hamlet
go for bracers
near rock
oh yeah 100%
proven ocean
U take whichever item is harder for you to acquire
frank hamlet
yea
hazy temple
thats what i was thinking, but daggers with good stats is hard to get by in raid, but i guess daggers are not that big vaulue
void brook
For yall that play outlaw in the open world, am I doing something wrong or does it just feel really bad compared to sub
proven ocean
thats what i was thinking, but daggers with good stats is hard to get by in raid...
It is big value yes
U can always get daggers from m+ vault and raid later on cant you?
void brook
Like I feel like with sub I just shred mobs... outlaw feels slow to start up
keen belfry
thats what i was thinking, but daggers with good stats is hard to get by in raid...
do u only play outaw? ur gonna craft a dagger if thats the case
hazy temple
U can always get daggers from m+ vault and raid later on cant you?
yeah i guess
gaunt phoenix
most ppl craft dagger at some point
clear tulip
For yall that play outlaw in the open world, am I doing something wrong or does ...
losing the BTE cd refresh on stealth between mobs in open world feelsbad
hazy temple
do u only play outaw? ur gonna craft a dagger if thats the case
yes i only play outlaw
proven ocean
Just pick wrist its nice to get a socketed bis stat piece
clear tulip
get wrist craft daggy with embelly eventually
hazy temple
Thanks for the advice guys
keen belfry
yes i only play outlaw
a crafted dagger is bis then
proven ocean
Wish i played to give an instant solid advice but it is what it is
near rock
@gaunt phoenix im surprised the sim thinks double ace is equal to dropping dancing steel for paladins. always thought double ace was worthless rn https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/o9Hz2rssSXJPXHXWDZBmr3
hazy temple
i figured i woulndt craft it, since im useally the only rouge in the guild, but it seems survival hunters also want daggers now xD
gaunt phoenix
dagger and wrist are basically the same stat value, but wrists you go from 266 > 289 compared to 276 > 289, regardless of the socket that's prolly the whole 0.5% diff
proven ocean
They lowered weapons stat value?
I dont remember them having lower stats than wrists before midnight or
clear tulip
just checked. my 285 oh dagger has less agi than my 276 bracers
proven ocean
Dagger has lower overall stats yes
Even secondaries
But why’s that
I dont remember it being like that before
Odd
I guess they dont want weapons to be too overly strong to have two of
Instead just make the mainhand the biggest upgrade and thats it
gaunt phoenix
<@921608341048930304> im surprised the sim thinks double ace is equal to droppin...
i think deft on 3 targets is actually just good
but sim doesnt slam deft on 3
so dancing steel increasing bf duration means less deft
proven ocean
Solo
near rock
the sim doesn't press bf outside of keeping it up on 3?
gaunt phoenix
yeah it slams deft at 4
near rock
but if you are slamming deft on 3, then dancing steel has no value right
clear tulip
@near rock are you doing vanguard prog as outaw?
gaunt phoenix
idk
random stirrup
how long is paldins 2 target vs 3
about 40% 3 60% 2
near rock
<@153610803923255296> are you doing vanguard prog as outaw?
sin and outlaw ye
clear tulip
actually im prob gonna play bench spec
near rock
alternating between the two
keen belfry
idk how ur energy would survive slamming BF on cd for as long as paladins fight is
vivid vessel
<@921608341048930304> im surprised the sim thinks double ace is equal to droppin...
Paladin is 2 target mostly tho
near rock
eh
vivid vessel
I disagree with that eh
near rock
good amount of 3 target uptime
vivid vessel
Eh
clear tulip
alternating between the two
you gonna stream? 
near rock
nah I haven't streamed this tier
austere owl
anyone knows if wowanalyzer gets an update for outlaw? my logs getting worse and i don't know what i am doing wrong. i refuse to play sub or assa. (i mean assa has double ASS in it, must be ass, right? and i want to be dominant not a sub )
vivid vessel
I'm not sure how to check in logs
clear tulip
but yeah feels like theres a good amount of 2 target per kill videos
clear tulip
I'm not sure how to check in logs
I dont know an official way but i go to replay mode and just watch the boss icons move
keen belfry
lasts lonmger mhm
clear tulip
ye
vivid vessel
so kinda remove 10s uptime from each of these numbers everytime
karmic stag
If only our shiv could apply it for 30 seconds to account for downtime, or shiv effect also cleaved when BF was up
keen belfry
real q why doesnt it work like other raid buff debuffs
like chaos brand or monk
lore shit?
poison arent forever
brands are
rancid silo
out dated 
vivid vessel
its the newest raid buff cuh
tho a lot of new rogue things are outdated right as they come out
kinda a classic
normal quail
for anyone using the ranger trinket, is it good to bind on ar
rancid silo
i didnt mean atrophic, just poisons in general
arctic hollow
Bind it to SS 🧠
keen belfry
solo how much crit u got
karmic stag
Bind it to everything. If it’s on cooldown you want it used immediately. Bind it to applying poisons
gaunt phoenix
very big wang
keen belfry
lucid sparrow
unbuffed
glass shard
what is rough ilvl value of a socket ?
keen belfry
im so confused outlawmaoaeo
rancid silo
keen belfry
how the hell do u have 40% crit
lucid sparrow
idk plume ig
keen belfry
is it procced?
lucid sparrow
its always on
rancid silo
he has every major crit item you could have
keen belfry
oh that explains it
rancid silo
his crit be even higher when his trinket procs lol
lucid sparrow
yep
keen belfry
he has every major crit item you could have
its all plume
lucid sparrow
44% with flask
near rock
😎
near rock
unbuffed baby
river wing
damn
nullaeus is free as fuck atm
river wing
legit the only issue was ilvl
rancid silo
he has haste and vers gems
sry not gems i meant like jewelery Neck/rings
keen belfry
what neck is that
formal thunder
does dungeon slice work for Outlaw sim?
rancid silo
renown neck
river wing
yes
keen belfry
his rings have less clit than mine
lucid sparrow
clit
keen belfry
its legit all plume
lucid sparrow
om
keen belfry
thats sick its always on
rancid silo
how? thats the highest crit ring available i believe
rancid silo
nvm it aint that high
river wing
you have 35 more crit and haste than me unbuffed?
same order of stats, crit/haste/mast/vers, can't get rid of that mast atm
river wing
yeah plume is hardcore
rancid silo
Plumes like 250 crit right
keen belfry
i was so confused looking at your gear and seeing ur stats
then genesis was just lying to me
keen belfry
yes and so do i
i didnt think his stats were possible without like 10 more eye level
plume explains it perf
rancid silo
what are you at w/o plume
keen belfry
have u simmed vers flask @lucid sparrow
vivid vessel
i didnt think his stats were possible without like 10 more eye level
massive eye level
keen belfry
really high eye
lucid sparrow
have u simmed vers flask <@138261643002904576>
no
keen belfry
how does plume work
lucid sparrow
but when i sim gear
keen belfry
it falls off right?
lucid sparrow
it just wants me to get even more crit
rancid silo
starts at 60 stacks and goes down during combat
rancid silo
rancid silo
not u genesis
whats your crit at
thorny mural
i’m simming like shit
keen belfry
37
thorny mural
68k patchwerk 150k 5 target gg
thorny mural
is it just me or the buff is nonexistent
i’m doing no more than i was before
blade fury nerf for 0 reason pog
thorny mural
i guess our single target is better
keen belfry
u got stronger than last week
i know reset + buff + vault is more than just the buff but iw as blasting st
clear tulip
i was blasting on bosses in keys then getting gapped on aoe nerf demo
karmic gust
do you guys know what dungeons drop a chest so i can use the catalyst on it ? I believe SEAT does
keen belfry
a few do
karmic gust
i still have a 237 chest, it's my last piece for 4p
keen belfry
seat has so many items on its loot table
vivid vessel
@mighty pivot you there cuh
keen belfry
do u haev a cata charge?
clear tulip
prob nexus because of crit/haste ring too if you dont have it
mighty pivot
<@205708819458818049> you there cuh
ye
vivid vessel
the symlink thing i used last time like you said
one question i have tho
is about libs
karmic gust
do u haev a cata charge?
i do yes
vivid vessel
i can manually put libs in the folders but then i have to have a local .gitignore to ignore the libs
what do people do
karmic gust
prob nexus because of crit/haste ring too if you dont have it
that's what i have rn
vivid vessel
symlink inside the folder to have the libs in here but not really in here?
keen belfry
is that a heroic crafted sword i see