outlaw

[frail veldt]

you will lose dps in the long run

[gaunt phoenix]

it's one of those things that just happens to be wrong cause it was simmed

there's literally no way to tell otherwise

kir at 3 is not technically a difference in average dps BUT your rng curve is much wider from pull to pull

cause you can get fucked and not kir like at all in some pulls

[fathom bramble]

kir at 3 on farm, kir at 2 on prog 🤔

[vivid vessel]

kiring a 2 feels so shit

sometimes i kir then insta reroll

[fathom bramble]

I try to vibe it out and actively avoid it in keys

[vivid vessel]

just to feel something

its the highest gamble

im a gambler

[real yew]

Boys, Ranger Captain is on CD or try to use it with AR?

[vivid vessel]

is ranger captain a trinket

[leaden sonnet]

Ye dont stop gambling zac, you are about to hit big!

[real yew]

Yes

[gaunt phoenix]

AR doesnt do anything to boost it

its just damage

[vivid vessel]

i wont stop ty

[real yew]

K. Thanks solo

[vivid vessel]

btw eleem

how do you feel about the fact its a sub tier again

one day we will get you sub guys

today is not the day tho

but soon your day will come

[leaden sonnet]

Technically a sub tier yeah, but sub aint doing too hot either

[vivid vessel]

sure i can give you that

still if you had to pick a spec out of the 3 its sub again

wonder how it always get away with it

!

[next wedge]

guys rogue is good now

they're playing it in rwf

no changes necessary

[vivid vessel]

well sub is very good on beloralus imo

beloras

bolarem

bird guy

[leaden sonnet]

Its ok, tww sub wouldve crushed

[vivid vessel]

sure

but tww sub was broken

similarly to df sub

on god that shit was turbo broken

[next wedge]

most insane burst tbh

[fathom bramble]

imagine ungutted BF on like any of these fights

[vivid vessel]

at least you would have an arguemnet for outlaw

but even then i dont think you would pick outlaw on any of the end bosses

other than paladin if you consider it a end boss

[fathom bramble]

yeah prob not

[leaden sonnet]

Sub is just a middle of the pack burst spec now

.5 buffs it a bit with the trickster change atleast

[vivid vessel]

oh they are making sub better ?

aint no way

next tier is also a sub tier who would have tought

[haughty moat]

really suprising

[near rock]

.5 isn't a new tier

[leaden sonnet]

In general though i think assa has the best profile out of the rogue specs now, its numbers are just ass for some reason

[vivid vessel]

no but they are buffing sub damage profile

getting ahead of next tier

[vivid vessel]

sub still has aoe burst so idk

what does assa has over it

it burst higgher ?

• sub has 1min30 cds which is more niche

[leaden sonnet]

You dont grief your ST by doing aoe

[vivid vessel]

than 2min cd

which can be useful

[vivid vessel]

sure

[vivid vessel]

but tbf idk how much that matters when we are talking about actual aoe burst

[next wedge]

also exile isn't even showing up for dmg

[vivid vessel]

like little add pops that need to explode

[next wedge]

is atrophic good

[vivid vessel]

that doesnt matter bro

exile is prolly top 5 dps in intermission

[next wedge]

oh i see for egg phase

[vivid vessel]

yes

[next wedge]

i barely know this boss sorry for being a fat fucking chud

[vivid vessel]

ye

you are so fat

[next wedge]

well you're french and thats worse

[vivid vessel]

whatdehelly !

[next wedge]

six seven

[random stirrup]

idk cant see logs but sub 90s really are not all that anymore

just play more hunters

[vivid vessel]

yes but you can triple dance it

and there is a dps stop before it

which sub is always good at

get more dances, farm coup, farm sht, farm supercharger

whatever the fuck

also idk you say that but sub is one of the spec that burst the highest on pull so idk ?

surely means something

[cinder relic]

They burst like the same just on diff timers

[vivid vessel]

ok but you triple dance triple sec tech intermission

sim doesnt do that

[cinder relic]

Vs

[vivid vessel]

i didnt say tww wasnt higher burst

i know it was

[cinder relic]

Just sayin sub is notWhat it used to be

Even if u can move dances slightly

[vivid vessel]

ye io know

and yet its still a sub tier

[cinder relic]

Yes the sub rogue spec still has value

[harsh forge]

outlaw!!!

you have been removed from the group

[outer meteor]

feral goodge or skill issue?

to be fair i played that key with 300ms perma

cuz na servers during prime time

[wintry solar]

@cinder relic are you up to date with what's happening in The Forbidden Trove?

[quiet ore]

poe drama?

[wintry solar]

Yeah apparently the owner of the disc wasn't a good person from what I gather

[cinder relic]

LOLLL Yeah

I mean the tales of jenubu are very old

The drama now is cuz his account got perma banned LOL

[wintry solar]

It sounds like he's just sorry because of consequences lol

Sorry he got caught

I had 0 idea all this was going on

[gaunt phoenix]

he seems unwell

just kinda sad to me

[vivid vessel]

what is the forbidden trove

[wintry solar]

PoE Discord

[vivid vessel]

i sewe

people play other games than wow ?

thats wild to me

[gaunt phoenix]

Poe the goat

[vivid vessel]

how do you guys get invited to keys

[frail veldt]

Idk how they have so much free time

[vivid vessel]

i cant get invited to keys on my alt

and i alwyas giga gap people 1 ilvl higher than me

do people not see main io anymore or what

[frail veldt]

Prob

Get fukt

Noob

[vivid vessel]

its hard

when i list my key there is no one applying

even tho its a 10

and trying to queue up i cant

[frail veldt]

Welcome

[vivid vessel]

its 5 am

like

[wintry solar]

"improve my PR or some bullshit" this guy is hilarious

Oh well

[vivid vessel]

who even is my competition at 5 am

surely there cant be that many people

[wintry solar]

The bitchless, the sexless, the dirtiest of the dirt, the sweatiest of sweats queue at 5M

5am

[vivid vessel]

is this real bro

cant believe im actually reading this

[elder sonnet]

i queue at 5 am

Less traffic in lfg

[vivid vessel]

is it too hard to just phase people

like tf

[vivid vessel]

its 5 am bro

[vivid vessel]

who else is even quueing in these keys at 5 am

just take me no

people dont know i would gap them even with 10 less ilvl ..

sad life of lfg

how do you guys do it

you know

i wish there was an addon that showed your last keys overalls

[elder sonnet]

Probably see outlaw next to your name and they go like “ew”

[fast fossil]

Is the 2/4p worth getting as soon as i can or should i just wait till i can guarantee the whole 4p at once

[vivid vessel]

like they would see best damage in key

so people know

[vivid vessel]

garantee 4p

unless its obvious and you got a mythic head whatever you can catalyst that and get 2p right

its fine

but once you have 4p they drop on cds so

[wintry solar]

They just see race and spec

Not names

[vivid vessel]

holy shit i got invited

[wintry solar]

Cap

[vivid vessel]

no cap

proof

[wintry solar]

Proof?

Damn ..

[vivid vessel]

bet you cant say the smae popo

never seen you in a grp

[wintry solar]

You're right

[vivid vessel]

popo

=poop

[wintry solar]

Yeah I mean

The evidence is damning right now ngl

Wait I have that screenshot from when I was drinking and running keys as outlaw and started RPing as a pirate in chat

That's about it though

[vivid vessel]

@gaunt phoenix

i saw someone acuse me of abusing of snd bug again

this thing will never end

[fathom bramble]

I wonder if you can still abuse it

by casting echoing reprimand in a SL zone

[vivid vessel]

you can abuse it

by casting adr

at end of a pack

very good tech

adr last gcd

[fathom bramble]

big tech

[vivid vessel]

even in tww it was turbo useles already

[wintry solar]

The satisfaction it gives is more valuable than the benefits of the bug

Gave

[vivid vessel]

i think current outlaw in keys is better tuned than s1 and s3 tww

thats my take

if you disagree you are wrong

[wintry solar]

What if I agree

[quaint mauve]

bro i keep getting compliments in keys

it’s making me feel so nice

[vivid vessel]

same

they keep saying im so cute

idk how to respond

:3

[gaunt phoenix]

[vivid vessel]

bro i swear im not ..

[jolly geyser]

Snd hacker smh

[long barn]

Is there an addon that has a X where your character is like the old WAs?

!ui

[ornate heath]

Resources:

• ArcUI / BetterCDM - common suites for buff/cd customization
• WangBar - displays CPs/energy, customize colors per point, faster than Sensei
• MSUF - recommendation for unit frames
• Platynator - recommendation for nameplates (Jundies Profile)
  Misc:
• Clickable Raid Buffs - for poisons
• WilduTools - random QoL like melee range indicator, track cursor
• Mute Cold Blood sound - if we ever go back to this talent

[quiet ore]

that's the secret: I mostly don't. 90% of my keys have been my own or a friend's. Even at 271 ilvl 2850 io... takes an hour to actually get in to a key

I still gotta run pit of sauron like a million times for gear

[vivid vessel]

gege..

[fathom bramble]

almost all of my keys have been with guildies and friends

what little pugging I tried to do you just don't get invited

even at high ilvl good score for basic +10 farm

[quiet ore]

I think there's also just an extreme tank shortage in NA - what keys I do get in to still take an hour to find a tank, outside absolute peak hours

[fathom bramble]

yeah that feels accurate

[pearl topaz]

rogue tank spec inc imo

already feeling tanky as fuck tbh

[eternal hound]

Guys uhhh

....what

[gaunt phoenix]

class tree talent

[eternal hound]

Oh

I was like huh

[wintry solar]

Maybe I'm wrong but it doesn't feel like it does any meaningful healing

[gaunt phoenix]

it's not

[wintry solar]

Thought so

[eternal hound]

1% evrey 3 seconds is hilariously pitiful

[fathom bramble]

they need to buff it back to 3% per 3 imo

[eternal hound]

I imagine if it wasn't mandatory for super charger it'd be omega dead

Honsetly

3% per 3 sounds okay

Espically since rogue needs all the help we can get for defensives jesus

[fathom bramble]

yeah it was a reasonable little boost

[eternal hound]

Honestly

and I know I have a limited view of it based on classes I play

but I feel like the defensives being brought down was....a little harsh?

It's really funny looking at a class like DK

Where they just straight up shot lichborne

[fathom bramble]

yeah losing soothing darkness and gaining basically nothing has felt really bad for self heal

[eternal hound]

Honestly I'd kill to just

be able to take that

Vanish as a defensive sounds neat

[soft musk]

id rather have aoe blind back

[eternal hound]

I mean

we're already getting that?

[soft musk]

but i think anytime rogues say something its always. well you guys have shroud, evasion and feint

[eternal hound]

Altough I do agree what the fuck blizz

[soft musk]

dont need more

[eternal hound]

Evasion dosen't feel good

It feels....kinda weak? Idk maybe I don't have enough experience

[soft musk]

feint feels almost pointless unless you are fatebound with evasion up

[fathom bramble]

we are so squish to the random junk that can't be feinted and/or goes through cloak though

[eternal hound]

Or I'm just used to classes like warr shaman or pally

[fathom bramble]

I would also like for cloak to reduce magic damage taken alongside the current effects

so random shit that pierces immunities can at least still be reduced

[eternal hound]

I kinda just wish we had better defensives in general

[soft musk]

and supposedly in raid you dont even press it because its dps loss or atleast that what max was saying about it. the dr wasnt worth the dps loss

[eternal hound]

I do like faint

For faint?

[fathom bramble]

well if you can survive without rpessing it then it's a waste to press

[soft musk]

ya last raid imexile and even jpc said in raid prog they never press feint or vial

[eternal hound]

Alright

[soft musk]

and this raid max said the same thing

[eternal hound]

so I should unbind defensives

Thou on a real note

I'd rather they just give us more passive tankiness and tune faint to be closer to defensive stance since it's something we have for basically evrey raid wide

Correction: Base defensive stance, not stance mastery. Holy fuck they'd be insane to give us that

[soft musk]

id rather they remove shroud and give us aoe blind back

[eternal hound]

Did something change?

[soft musk]

or make feint more impactful and remove evasion or cloak or make cloak similar to ams

[fathom bramble]

okay but we are already getting aoe blind back

[eternal hound]

Did they revert the .5 change?

[fathom bramble]

and neither of those things do anything in raid

[soft musk]

oh giga than thats noice!

[eternal hound]

Chief

[soft musk]

true

[eternal hound]

I mentioned this already

[soft musk]

shroud doesnt do anything for raid either. and they pretty much ensure everything you could skip has true site so you have to skip with distract shourd anyway.

[fathom bramble]

if it were me I would just remove the cooldown from feint, but make it free if you haven't cast it in the last x seconds

spamming it should have a cost

simply using my defensive should not

[eternal hound]

At that point I'd rather just make Dstance

I hoenstly feel like that's....a bit more reasonable

[soft musk]

ya id be fine with that lok that would make it not feel as terrible. but if the dr was still bad than why even

[fathom bramble]

I mean that's just what I would do to feint

I don't think it's the only change we should get to our passive/active defensives

and the DR is occasionally quite good

we don't need feint to be put the wayside we need other tools that interact with things that currently just end our existence

[soft musk]

i only really notice it when evasion is up with feint as fb.

if its just natty feint i still feel like paper

in pvp though feint is bible

[fathom bramble]

that sounds like you are using it on stuff feint doesn't reduce idk

[eternal hound]

Yeah like viceroy

Is actually AWFUL for rogue

[fathom bramble]

40% dr is absolutely super noticeable

[soft musk]

anytime aoe is about to go off i press it

[eternal hound]

I don't think it should be "you either nuke your tentacle into oblivion in under 5 seconds or you immediately die."

With zero in between no matter what you press

[soft musk]

but with evasion+feint its super noticeable

[fathom bramble]

just tack a line on the bottom of Danger Sense

"This effect always triggers on Damage over time effects"

it's always bleeds and dots that are clearly magical, but not removed by cloak that end us

[soft musk]

ya 60% with evasion vs the 40% natty idk. could also just be the passive we healing we go taken away made it feel worse aswell

im perma dwarf i had bleeds. lol im never switching

[eternal hound]

me rolling nelf as the most useless race for rogue

[quaint mauve]

don’t say that.

nelf is bis

[soft musk]

i mean man nelf is really good too

[quaint mauve]

and we can pvp!

[eternal hound]

I mean honestly the fashion is great

But I don't feel like I NEED an extra aggro drop

[soft musk]

but i just hate bleeds more. i always transmog into nelf or belf lol

[eternal hound]

I honestly don't like dwarves

too short

[soft musk]

short and frickin obnoxious noises

[eternal hound]

Can I just say

[soft musk]

but ill never have to worry about a bleed

[eternal hound]

the nelf AR sound is PEAK

[soft musk]

kinda wish they just made all the race specific stuff swapple. even if it was quest related like a one time thing per account

or make it like in shadowlands where you could only swap every 2 weeks. id be fine with that

[eternal hound]

Jokingly I say delete racials

[deep sequoia]

yo @vivid vessel how much haste before i can stop using haste pots?

[fathom bramble]

I say delete racials completely seriously

[deep sequoia]

25%?

[gaunt phoenix]

Not exactly 25 more like 23

[wintry solar]

If I can't aura farm eating people in an rpg what's the point?

[eternal hound]

Most racials do not aura farm

If we wonna tralk about aura farming

Killing spree lowkey

[frail veldt]

🦗

[quiet ore]

@gaunt phoenix shouldn't this include using a combat potion? buff stays at key start and CD resets on entry

[jolly geyser]

[eternal hound]

Holy fuck

I just griefed a key

[eternal hound]

Why would you use a combat potion before the key starts

[quiet ore]

it lasts 30s this xpat

[keen belfry]

becuz u can het half duration or even more!

[quiet ore]

yeah

[eternal hound]

Yeah but like

...Wouldn't you rather just have the full duration in a pull

[quiet ore]

you get both

the cd resets

on key start

[eternal hound]

...Sorry, that shit is just too expensive to me

But ur probally right

But...macro pot to AR Anyways

[keen belfry]

bad macro

[quiet ore]

low q ones prove 85% of the benefit and are only 30g

[eternal hound]

I'm using low qs

[keen belfry]

make it its own bind

trust

shift X

[eternal hound]

See I would

[keen belfry]

here comes some BS

broadside

[eternal hound]

But I'm an actual dumbass who bound tricks to their CTRL+AR keybind

YES

IT IS BS

LMAFO

Then again

[keen belfry]

mhm ive heard it all

[eternal hound]

I'm the same dumbass who did this in a 10 caverns

Holy fuck I was legit trolling

[keen belfry]

hey atleast u know

im proud ofu

[eternal hound]

Bro I did better in the 10 skyreach

[keen belfry]

some ppl here send in those numbers then have the audacity to say "holy rogue is bad!"

[eternal hound]

na na na

I know when I completely fumble my rota for the entire key

Like those pulls

some of them were so low and totally my fault for a ton of misplays

[keen belfry]

66k kinda goes hard

[eternal hound]

The tank ate me for breakfast

And I thought I was getting better cuz I had a few really good run todays

Then I troll on the last one for the night

I deadass crashed out at myself

[keen belfry]

good

[eternal hound]

I think that key

Is legit the worst I've played any in like a year

[thin fiber]

if i'm at 39% crit / 24% haste (after buff/food/flask), which buff do I take in AA?

[quiet ore]

crit likely, but you could sim it

[fathom bramble]

almost certainly crit

while you are obviously near both caps, the haste cap has a much more aggressive fall off

while crit past 40% has a decent value still

[thin fiber]

aite, thanks guys

[craggy barn]

npx is legit troll

random deaths on flight

puddles on left pedastal

giga trol

[balmy topaz]

Depends on the key level, I'd be tempted to take vers honestly

[fathom bramble]

actually I hadn't considered that

I would probably go vers too

part of what makes vers a 'bad' stat is that you get less % per rating

but when we are looking at simply gaining 3% of it

it's probably better than or very nearly just as good as crit

[balmy topaz]

Also I just done a quick stat weight - you don't lose too much dmg for going vers either

And you gain the added survivability

[fathom bramble]

yeah that entire difference is eaten up by vers being less stat per stat

if we go by those weights and adjust for vers getting less stat per rating then vers is literally stronger here

[balmy topaz]

Yup

Ngl tho I have been taking crit atm

But I will be taking vers moving forward

[quiet ore]

it's pets

pets make bad things happen on the flights

[craggy barn]

wait but i see dev dh die

i might be misremembering

since its the same player lol

[grim spear]

assa looks good

[wintry solar]

!stats

[ornate heath]

Outlaw's stat prio is generally Crit > Haste* > Vers >= Mastery.

• You need ~21-23% haste for energy, this has priority over crit. That's the haste on your stat page after talents/buffs/flask.
• Crit is then your best stat until you approach ~40%, from there random vers or mastery pieces will be similar.
• You have to use Raidbots Top Gear to determine the exact combination of pieces to use.

[wintry solar]

Whoops

Stacked vers and forgot about the need for crit

[ornate estuary]

why the heck do outlaw players use a dagger offhand rn

[fathom bramble]

it unfortunately isn't complete data and leaves you with the question of "is sin actually good ST or are they just never swapping off boss"

!oh

[wintry solar]

Oopsie doodles

[ornate heath]

A dagger offhand is ~1% better than a slow weapon mostly because of Zero In, and also slightly more Instant Poison procs. Energy is not affected by offhand speed.

It is possible large ilvl differences can matter more than this bonus so use Raidbots Top Gear when in doubt.

[fathom bramble]

this benefit equates to about a ~30-40ilvl difference between a slow and a fast offhand

[quiet ore]

they just do better in funnel fights than sub, right? and since 1st boss is arguably funnel, it's overrepresented in mythic right now, since the later bosses have basically no parses?

[thin fiber]

yea, flat 3% is delicious.

[fathom bramble]

yeah the biggest thing is that this data is basically only for the mythic fights that won't matter that much

[thin fiber]

I have been taking that (since DF), and even more beneficial now since they revamped the spinners at the end (new aoe dmg)

[sacred rune]

subtleties prio damage isn't that bad if you dare to play deathstalker

[fathom bramble]

a lot of the data is coming from fights where melee don't get to or shouldn't realistically hit the adds too

so all melee are higher than we 'should' be

and then melee that are incentivized to just stay on boss on like 1st boss and salhadaar are even higher

[thin fiber]

it happen twice to me: random guy pulled the entire bridge while teleporting back from 1st/2nd boss

[wintry solar]

Do both hero trees see play in some form of content?

For sub

[quiet ore]

I think the real observation we aughta make from OL in mythic is that 100% or nearly 100% of OL parses in mythic are fatebound - on every boss with logs. That's probably a balance fail.

Like, we knew it was gonna be that way, but still

[fathom bramble]

a ton of specs are like that

[sacred rune]

you play deathstalker on single target fights

which don't have phase switches or similar

[fathom bramble]

so in this raid that's like 1 fight

maybe a couple mroe if you just ignore adds and let ranged do it

[grim spear]

Hero talents are the biggest pile of garbage shit in the history of class design in WOW

[sacred rune]

because deathstalkers mark can easily bug out and you lose notiably more than the 2% diffrence between hero talents

2 fights

salad bar and wall boss

you can play it on crown

i had someone dm me even

[fathom bramble]

you are suppose to swap a lot on p2 crown with how it is tanked

[sacred rune]

"i played deathstalker on crown, and it slaps, idk why anyone would not"

[fathom bramble]

though I suppose you could get away with just not swapping targets if you outplayed it

[sacred rune]

and then i remember that both exile and kush had their deathstalkers mark bug out on the fight (hope i remember that correct)

losing a lot of damage

this means, most of it is just risk management, but diffrence between the two hero talents also is not that high...

[fathom bramble]

even outlaws 2 the difference isn't that big

[quiet ore]

in all content? virtually all ol keys logged are fatebound, too.

[fathom bramble]

trickster is kind of tempting for the better damage reduction and perma tricks in keys

[sacred rune]

i mean i think midnight kind of wanted this

hero talents got changed to play less unique

[fathom bramble]

I guess I shouldn't say 'a ton of specs' but like just the few I have looked at how to play are like this

[sacred rune]

similar to regular talent trees

[fathom bramble]

it only takes like a 2% difference fro 100% of people to play 1

[sacred rune]

so if things are more equl, why bother switching

its very noticble on subtlety now, becuse you had clear strenghts before

now its blurred to the point both play almost the same

[grim spear]

The best change to hero talents

would be to remove them entirely.

[quiet ore]

I mean, fatebound is like 50 lines of passives to have zero gameplay effect other than "finish on 5"

[grim spear]

Hero talents don’t add any meaningful distinction, either in gameplay or flavor.

They just double the workload of spec balancing for no real gain, while also obscuring the diversity that the talent trees themselves are supposed to provide.

[quiet ore]

talent tree diversity rn:

I think it's actually at an all time low, even if numbers-wise some nodes are closer than ever

[fathom bramble]

yeah

[grim spear]

The spec tree itself should provide the diversity.

If hero talents are also expected to add diversity, then you end up with spec × spec tree × hero talents as your total variation space,

which is simply impossible

WoW’s design space just can’t support that level of complexity.

[fathom bramble]

with 2 talents that still feel like palceholder and a capstone somehow left at 0.6% damage this is just where it was going to end up ig

there also isn't any kind of meaningful build alternative like there was with ho/kir

like outlaw without prep plays basically the same

so there is no one taking the worse option for gameplay reasons

when it is the same gameplay

well prep is a bad example since peopel are actually dropping that in keys sometimes

but basically every talent is like that

[quiet ore]

I drop it in keys - SD 2 is better for consistency and prep never aigns with anything except the first pull unless you've really planned the key out

plus, after I press prep I always spaghetti my buttons anyway

[grim spear]

At this point, hero talents are basically just forcing two preset playstyles, what’s even the point of that?

On top of that, their design is so conservative they barely have any presence at all.

“We want players to still feel like they’re playing Outlaw, not Trickster”

specs that share the same hero talents don’t feel meaningfully connected in any way either

It’s honestly a complete failure. It’s hard to imagine a worse system.

[fathom bramble]

also why is the fatebound damage reduction both RNG and worse than the normal average 5% DR that other specs have?

[quiet ore]

well, it doesn't help that fatebound is zero flavor, zero mechanics, passive bounuses all

[fathom bramble]

like 5% damage reduction was the target for the survivability on hero talents

and fatebound gets unreliable 3% average reduction

[grim spear]

Yeah, the design of Fatebound is just next-level stupid

it honestly feels like they ran out of time and threw it to some random intern to finish.

[haughty wigeon]

i mean

all of the hero talents suck

and the ones that are alright, can be easily incorporated to the specs they mesh well the most

which is tellign tbh

felscarred dh can be added perma to havoc

[fathom bramble]

pretty sure this is the only noticeable node between both trees

[fathom bramble]

I was actually really liking just holding it for bosses a lot

hard to tell how good it actually is from only a handful of push keys, but it definitely made my boss damage quite good

and helped mitigate any tea charge issues

[crimson scarab]

Would you say it’s better to use prep than a second point in the SD talent?

[fathom bramble]

I'm kind of undecided

I suspect prep is better if you have good spots you know it will see value every 4-5 minutes, but SD is likely an easier safer option for most keys most of the time

and the difference is small enough it is unlikely to make or break a key anyway

[cinder relic]

Less potential for user error = good

[eternal solstice]

when i started raiding prep has been a good help to keep myself at RTB lvl 2+ most of the time, making me roll only once without guaranteed bonus per encounter

[grim spear]

Hero talents aren’t just suck
the problem starts at the very top, with flawed design direction and constraints.

By the time it’s executed, the whole system just reeks of phoned in, checkbox styled development.

[fathom bramble]

it is just the expected result when you need 10 points that aren't game warping

evergreen features can't be too gamewarping or you fast track to bloat

it's the same reason many apex talents don't do anything

[grim spear]

so casually adding immature evergreen features is precisely the problem.

[quiet ore]

The KiR/LD minmax from the FAQ has helped me push my average stage-1 uptime down to around 10-12%; but that may as well just be variance - you only roll like 30 times in a key

[fathom bramble]

yeah this is why borrowed power was good

it wasn't evergreen so it could be gamewarping

and it could get deleted next expac with a new gamewarping thing stepping in

[quiet ore]

so you're sayin hero trees need to be socketable so they can make them seasonal

which they almost did with azerite gear

[keen belfry]

how are yall hitting 39% crit

[fathom bramble]

I think hero talents should have been appropriately gamewarping and replaced with 2 new ones every expac

[keen belfry]

tf am i missing

[grim spear]

This whole mess honestly looks like the result of office politics

[fathom bramble]

also none of this triangle thing

just 2 hero talents per class

[keen belfry]

i guess my belt has no crit???

[grim spear]

Metzen’s back, we need a big shift in direction, blah blah blah

[quiet ore]

I'm only at 30% - I can see like 35% as doable, 40% is I chugged a crit flask instead of haste

[fathom bramble]

seasonal might be a bit much, but expac based rotation power was definitely a good thing

problems with borrowed powe were nearly always acquisition issues too

if you just got borrowed power while leveling and ran with it I think borrowed power would be seen a lot more fondly by most players

[haughty wigeon]

i think hero talents should have been what apex is

cause another big flaw is having two specs fit in one hero tree

thats the technical side of things

its worse in the rp department

hunter being a huge outlier, imagine being a orc and your only options are.

Rexxar

undead elf

night elf

[grim spear]

cooked

[quiet ore]

but for real, do y'all not value the seat rings avoidance set bonus for higher keys?

it's a good stat spread for us, if higher on vers than haste

[still matrix]

Is it worth doing timewalking or farming anything there?

[wintry solar]

They can cook awesome BP let's be real

[quiet ore]

do a rag skip with the weekly to kill rag for a hero track gear piece quest reward

quest is by the cata portals in faction capital

[river wing]

hunters are megacooked in regards to hero talents yeah

the issue with hero talents is, in general, that they're a revisitation of the ideas blizz had like 20 years ago
it's something they discussed before the current talent system was in, with an idea that maybe you could become a DK or a DH or a Blood Mage or a Farseer at higher level by doing some quest chains or whatever
it was very heavily tied into WC3's classes, too
but the thing is, we're 25 years removed from WC3 and a lot of its ideas have already been used up in a different way

(also the issue with Rogue in particular is that WC had no Rogue-style characters if you don't count Wardens who are plate-armored and very magical overall)

(and for Hunters it's the reverse, there's tons of hunters but they're all hyperspecific)

[quiet ore]

fatebound doesn't even have an archetype character in game - the icon is just some guy

[river wing]

trickster is "generic rogue", DS is not even a Rogue faction (Deathstalkers are just Forsaken standing army/guard), and Fatebound is legit pulled out of someone's ass

[wintry solar]

We knew this would happen though

They said they had to make new archetypes when they announced them

[river wing]

ngl I do think Blizz lost track of what classes are and why a LONG time ago

[grim spear]

exactly

[wintry solar]

I think new archetypes introduced through hero trees are fine, only problem is people would only accept the said archetype if the tree is good enough and not the idea it's trying to portray itself

[haughty wigeon]

yes thats true

but they could have atleast made them cool

like trickster has a nice little animation thats cool

i want more of that

[river wing]

personally I disagree
the ideas are very underbaked even if we only take flavour into account

[wintry solar]

I really like the idea of Fatebound a lot

[haughty wigeon]

fatebound has one coin and we know that it was supposed to be alot more to it according to realz, visually

but they didnt have enoguh time to do it

which only adds insult to injury

[wintry solar]

I really don't think you'd say that had the trees been entirely different

[haughty wigeon]

the best hero trees are uniroincally the ones that add things to the spec visually and atleast adds something substancial to the rotation even if it seems simple at first glance

like

[quiet ore]

riding a horse?

[river wing]

I highly dislike fatebound (cosmic gambler with no setting connection???), trickster is the most milquetoast design known to man, and DS is...uhhhh...not anything that couldn't be part of Assa by default (they even share the concept of marking a target for a kill)

[haughty wigeon]

ya riders is cool cause you have that very nice open world flavor

and you summon 4 of your posse

like it doesnt do much other than "summon your gang at the press of your main cd"

simple

but cool

[wintry solar]

If Fatebound had supercool animations and flowed played really good, would you feel the same way?

[river wing]

yes

it flows okay right now and I still dislike it on flavour basis only

[haughty wigeon]

templar is just paladin + and it dfoes it well. falling hammers from the sky and a giant hammer looks cool. turns your 30 second button into another button. simple

meanwhile in the other end of the spectrum, herald of the sun sucks hot ass

cause you just see 4 yellow lines connect yourself to your enemies or allies. the cool par is hat you see the dawnlight on your target

[wintry solar]

I know a lot of people were disappointed they're a summoner of the horseman and not a horseman themself

[haughty wigeon]

but want to know what would be cooler? having that dawnlight visual on yourself and empowers your wings like how the light vanguad boss have before you fight them

[haughty wigeon]

thats lowkey kind silly to me

but i can see it? but at the same time you are a horsemen, you can ride in combat in open world

granted you can see why such a thing would be broken in instance combat tho, being on horse all the time

[quiet ore]

I mean... you could slow it down indoors

[haughty wigeon]

true

[river wing]

ngl I have no idea why it can't empower death's advance like pally horse

[wintry solar]

I agree with them tbh, it's very DK to be summoning minions on horseback. It's more attractive to me than summoning horseman as my minions.

It's a banger leveling talent and nothing else

I meant to send that earlier my b

I'm at work

[craggy barn]

rider can fight mounted on chimeras

lol

[wintry solar]

No way

Really? That's cool

[craggy barn]

yea

[river wing]

I mean it's a mount-open area

so that makes sense

[wintry solar]

Oh yeah true

[craggy barn]

i wish bdk had rider instead of db

[haughty wigeon]

thats what the second node does

it makes deaths advance into a horse (a better horse than paladin btw)

[wintry solar]

I've been saying that since day 1 of tww

[craggy barn]

same

[haughty wigeon]

holy shit

[wintry solar]

A tank being as slow as blood feels illegal

[haughty wigeon]

does that mean they can fight mounted for all of voidspire?

[river wing]

then idk why people complain, that's how it can reasonably work at all

[haughty wigeon]

🤷

[craggy barn]

u cannot riders mount in void

[haughty wigeon]

boo

but you can mount on voracious area i think

[craggy barn]

it only works in dreamrift because all mount reatrictions are off

[haughty wigeon]

anywho

[wintry solar]

I'm complaining because I can't mount indoors and blood doesn't have riders

Mhm mhm

[haughty wigeon]

ya visuals make or break a hero tree, and frankly the best visuals can often be incorporated to any spec it fits the most

[hasty warren]

Hi pirates

[river wing]

personally IDK why it couldn't be a more-ranged spec instead of fatebound
both Assa and Outlaw would make sense to put more oomph into their ranged stuff, it would help Outlaw with their downtime issues and Assa with rotation diversity

...that's because DH took that with Aldrachi, isn't it

[grim spear]

Hero talents are trying to add another layer on top of specs, while also not being allowed to disrupt the core identity of those specs.

I honestly just want to ask the designers

do you even hear what you’re saying?

[craggy barn]

i wish they spent more time giving the base tree more room to breath. apex feels like a good extension and came an expansion later, but hero talents were a big mistep and were right after trees

[wintry solar]

I wish we had better visuals, sometimes I think they hold rogue back fantasy wise on purpose because they know it'd give them more work if more people played it

[haughty wigeon]

aldrachi is the worst offender

[grim spear]

Removing the hero talent trees would be the best thing they could do.

[haughty wigeon]

it eclipses the spec

and its visual is purple throw glaive

[haughty wigeon]

outlaw= gun

give more gun

[river wing]

they could've done it this expac
and maybe after TLT is another chance
if they stay past that - they're forever

[haughty wigeon]

make cowboy spec a reality

ks is cool, make it viable now and gg

[wintry solar]

Cowboy yes but God fix that animation

It ruins it for me

[craggy barn]

ks being viable means more damage, i want another ks rework instead

just retire the ability even

[grim spear]

[haughty wigeon]

i think its fine

just make it do more prio damage to main target

[wintry solar]

Go back to pirate so Dreadblades mogs dont seem out of place

[haughty wigeon]

reduce cast by 1 second

and gg its fixed

[craggy barn]

make it not random target

[haughty wigeon]

thats what i mean by making it viable

does more dmaage to your prio target and it cleaves off that

instead of being bladestorm but gun

but i think bladestorm has prio damage

[craggy barn]

its viability right now hinges on its tuning not its mechanics

[river wing]

yeah pretty huge one too

it MSs the target every 2 spins

[craggy barn]

i hate that they decided it needed to randomly target during beta

[river wing]

which means a full slayer BS does 4 MS strikes in 8 seconds on top of pretty decent BS damage itself

[craggy barn]

made no sense

it was fine the first iteration

er not beta, patch ptr

[river wing]

but ngl I wouldn't mind Outlaw being focused around PS as builder, BtE as basic Dispatch-like, and KS (if fixed) as BtE-like
it certainly would need a lot more stuff to press and some reactive stuff, just three buttons would be stupid and bad, but that could be the same core as we currently have with SS/Dispatch/BtE

[wintry solar]

It's funny you say that, Ascension has exactly that and it's not fun

[haughty wigeon]

Shit man

[wintry solar]

Shame too because I was excited

[haughty wigeon]

There is no reason why ks can prio target then

[river wing]

haven't looked at Ascension for 10 years

[wintry solar]

Dont

Somehow the same but a bunch of stuff added

[haughty wigeon]

Make it Evoker range ya

[craggy barn]

idc if it ended early if target died or some shit

gitgud

blade rush gap closer to get a sinister strike in pepw

[wintry solar]

Idk how they managed to do it

[river wing]

there's no reason why KS can't drop a 5pt dispatch (and fill up Gravedigger while at it) instead of just filling up CP passively

[haughty wigeon]

I like blade rush getting tons stronger

[haughty wigeon]

Yep

[wintry solar]

Kinda like wow that past 3 expansions

[river wing]

like a lot of Outlaw stuff conflicts with itself slightly

it's not super jarring

but if you think about it for a minute, it does show

[haughty wigeon]

You can tell there’s a theme

[wintry solar]

Wdym

[river wing]

1. Gravedigger stacks only proc on Dispatch which conflicts slightly with us wanting to use BtE as often as possible and with Ace resets
2. KS is a long CD that would reasonably be used in the opener but it conflicts with AR duration elapsing during KS without contributing anything to KS
3. Ace resets don't allow to just slam BtE again instantly despite that being the most logical thing

that's off the top of my head

could also add SnD not proccing off BtE which means you gotta Dispatch before BtEing

[rotund zodiac]

I missed old crackshot

[wintry solar]

Solo ran a sim with KSing exclusively out of adr and it was a dps increase by like 1% or something but he never did anything else with that info

[novel birch]

Outlaw's whole thing is meant to be good damage, but consistently, against assassination and Subtulty's massive burst windows. It's how we were supposed to keep up in DPS, but not only is our damage too low, but this is too. Some abilities conflict the entire point of the class in the way they function

[wintry solar]

I do believe Ace is absolutely fan service. They don't want us spamming finishers anymore so idek why they thought keeping it around not only nerfed but a 2 point talent was a good idea.

[craggy barn]

ran out of ideas and time to do a good rework

[river wing]

in general the rotation flows so well once you get 3-buff, like you legit can chain things so beautifully as long as your have 3+ buff
but this mostly means 2-buff feels "this is okay but not great" after a bit

[wintry solar]

Probably

If ace makes it to the next expansion I'll be a little surprised tbh, reception on it has been lukewarm at best from what I've seen

[river wing]

us specifically, you mean? sub is as spammy as ever

[river wing]

ace's reception is entirely based on numbers

if it was full CP on proc
everyone would love it even for 2 points

[craggy barn]

they gonna nuke outlaw for a tank spec bc they cant figure out what to do with the spec

[wintry solar]

Yeah

[river wing]

tbh I'm afraid that Sub's newfound popularity will lead them to sub-ify the rest of the specs

[wintry solar]

They're culling active CDR from specs so they'll just give us more charges in everything, and give them a lower hard CD

[river wing]

cdr is the most fun thing in WoW's design

[wintry solar]

I agree

That would be the straw tbh

[river wing]

in general Midnight has been 30% fine, 70% disappointment/diminished satisfaction for me

[novel birch]

It is very rewarding if you can somehow chain like, 5 BTE ace proks in a row, but having to use a builder to make up the difference is a nightmare

[craggy barn]

im fine with needing a builder for chain btes. im not fine with our energy just being scuffed

[wintry solar]

I think it's fine not spamming finishers, I'm more upset that it's a 2 pointer tbh

[river wing]

energy being fine 95% of the time then falling off a cliff for 5 seconds is super jarring, like it's not even about managing anything, you just occasionally get fucked up if a fight is too long

[craggy barn]

i like varying button presses in rotation

helps reduce finger strain

[quiet ore]

I mean, the .5 ptr swaps ace to proc chance scaling with points instead of cp gain

[river wing]

and it's still 4 pts on refund, so you still have to press a builder

[wintry solar]

And it's still 2 points

Good direction but not quite there

[quiet ore]

well, "have to" is a numbers thing - you're guaranteed a restlessness cp at 5+, so you'll always ace into at least 5 cp, so, like, yeah, not big dam, but doesn't skip on any synergies by sending it at 5 - it's just tuning at that point. If anything, why do we not question why deeper/devious strategem have been must takes for multiple expansions? If blizz simply adds non-linear cp damage scaling, suddenly a 5cp send looks more appealing once those 6th or 7th cps aren't worth so much as a 1st or 2nd

[river wing]

well yes, the thing is, Blizz still thinks every finisher is supposed to work fully at 5 CP

[wintry solar]

I've been pro 6cp since tww tbh

[river wing]

but the numbers don't shake out for that and that's an issue - an issue that's been known for a while, too

as for +max CP talents, I'd trade them for something like Anticipation (store overcapped points, apply after finisher) in a heartbeat, IDK why this didn't survive longer

[novel birch]

I tend to keep up, sometimes TOP DPS charts in details. The reason I always end up at the bottom is dispite thistle tea and the energy regen from abilities, I still flatline so quickly

It doesn't matter how much you minmax energy, you're garunteed to run out before anyone else will

[river wing]

well, no, Assa runs out faster

:D

(yes I know it's like saying "you only got shot in the foot, this guy got kneecapped!")

[wintry solar]

I'm glad you said that, people have a hard time with that kind of thing

[river wing]

assa's state is honestly real sad
like Outlaw is at least workable and could be okay if we got tossed an aura buff and AoE blind back, it has large issues but the spec is playable, it has a clear idea of what it means to win at Outlaw, even if that idea doesn't work out with encounter design sometimes
Assa is just
designless at this point

someone heard "pooling" and tried to force it without understanding what it's supposed to be for and about

which means Assa pools...to do their filler again

[novel birch]

I'm not sure what the seeming reluctance about buffing assa and outlaw is

[shadow trellis]

Assa felt so good during sanctum of domination

[vapid blaze]

blizzard dont care

[novel birch]

It certainly isn't going to be breaking any game balance with another buff

[shadow trellis]

Play style was perfect

[novel birch]

feels that way

[shadow trellis]

I have a few theories

[river wing]

go ahead, it's our prime entertainment to speculate on what the hell Blizz are thinking

[shadow trellis]

Rfw / low spec popularity

Probably the biggest factors

[novel birch]

https://klipy.com/gifs/sisyphus-rock

[wintry solar]

All 3 specs peaked in SL so you'll be chasing that high for a while

[novel birch]

Have they considered that this is because the spec is weak compared to many others?

[shadow trellis]

Yeah

Sl was a good time to be a rogue

[shadow trellis]

I dont know what it is but even when ret was one of the worst specs (in sl) it was still the most popular melee

[river wing]

RWF is gonna be over next thursday, so if we see buffs next Friday (not tomorrow, but the week after), it might be that
low spec pop is due to systemic design issues and damage being tuned very poorly, so it'd be a self-perpetuating cycle

[novel birch]

I think it's because all rogue classes are much tougher to get the hang of that most melee, and the reward for learning it just isn't there cause of them being so much weaker than a class like Warrior

[shadow trellis]

Also i feel like outlaw requires you to figure your ui out. Not as much as before

But you cannot natty it and do well

Probably the biggest turn off for many casual gamers

(opinion

[river wing]

eh
even with Sub being legit one of the easier specs in the game atm
we're still not seeing a massive rogue surge

besides Rogue pop has been falling since...forever

[shadow trellis]

Mm thats true

[river wing]

like legit vanilla was the most rogue time ever

and then with every expac we lost some ground

[novel birch]

Thing is, rogue won't get popular if they leave it to fester. If rogue stays weak, it stays a small faction among much more popular classes

[river wing]

and then Blizz decided to just shoot us twice with Monk and DH

[novel birch]

They're doing nothing to solve the problem, they're just letting it stay a problem

[river wing]

it's not even about it being weak IMO

[wintry solar]

DK pop blew up when they gave every spec insanely cool visuals

[river wing]

like Rogue was decently strong in TWW often enough

not all specs, but Assa was v good during S1 and decent during S2

[novel birch]

I felt pretty damn good as an outlaw in Dragon Flight. I used to top the DPS for most mythic dungeons

not to say it didn't have it's issues

[shadow trellis]

I have skipped tww but rogue was crazy good in dragonflight

[river wing]

but regardless of how strong it was
Rogue was still in the dumpster popularity-wise during DF and TWW, like it was above Monk and now it's below Monk, but it's still the bottom three classes duking it out

[vapid salmon]

After failing multiple times as outlaw I tried Nullaeus ?? as Sub (with same equip and champion daggers) and did it on first try, That spec is ridiculous 🤣

[novel birch]

The other thing is, Rogue feels far more gear-reliant than other classes. Even getting my 2-piece tier set and a myth chest piece, my damage got much higher. Still not even comprable to most other classes, but it deffo improved

[novel birch]

I think it's funny that they gave outlaw and assa's a buff for damage to help them 'keep up', then gave sub pretty much the exact same buff, so changed basically nothing

[river wing]

there was a weird gap in terms of gear where at 240 ilvl I was doing half as much damage as I ended up doing with 250

and another gap where my current damage with 265 is again almost 60% higher than at 250

[novel birch]

Yeah. Outlaw and Assa's really are the Sisyphus of classes. You need to gear up to be the strongest you can, but you can't gear up in mythics cause no-one wants weak ass rogues

[river wing]

thankfully I have my own group

[novel birch]

I spend more time waiting for people to join my groups and to get invited to groups than I do anything else

[novel birch]

Same, otherwise I'd never get anywhere

[river wing]

unfortunately every time I have to compete with WW monk and I legit cannot catch up to them and that makes me die a little inside

well I can, but only on Sub

[vapid salmon]

And sub has 0 rng mechanics so you know exactly what will happen next, it makes everything so easy in that kind of fight

[novel birch]

Thing is, even with AR, Jackpot, and everything else I need, there's a chance I will spam Sinister Strike for 1/2 combo points, over and over and over again, without proking fan the hammer or anything else

which DESTROYS energy cause of it's cost

[vapid salmon]

Absolutely

It makes me crazy

[river wing]

yeah if you happen upon a chain of "opportunity doesn't proc for 5 times in a row", you're fucked for energy

because all energy econ for 'law is based on Opp procs (PS energy reduction, Flickering, getting more finishers for Restless)

[novel birch]

Also, I understand that damage is damage, but the fact auto attacks are the highest damaging ability of outlaw should tell you something is wrong. All your abilities should not be out-damaged by just standing there. My presence alone shouldn't be the reason I do damage, I wanna be the one doing the damage, you know?

I'm not saying I don't 'get it', but no other class in the game does that afaik

[river wing]

autos doing good damage is their way to mitigate poor players' performance

because you can't mess up autos

[river wing]

nah a lot of classes have their autos doing decent damage atm
it's not the highest category for outlaw either, it's just in top-5

[novel birch]

You will never learn if the game plays for you, though

[river wing]

wouldn't say it's playing the game for you
it's just lowering the delta between player skill points

[novel birch]

I get that, I just couldn't think of a way to word the point otherwise

abilities should be the bread and butter of damage, not the salt and pepper to the main that is your auto attacks

[vapid salmon]

Totally agree

It feels weird pressing 857574 keys in a fight and discover that the majority of damage was coming from autos and not an ability

[static crescent]

Looking at dps rankings on dungeons on outlaw in warcraft logs, apparently we are all dog shit, what im curious about however that outlaw runs genericly seem to have fair low dps

[novel birch]

Exactly!

[novel birch]

I spend so long using abilities, that I don't actually know when those autoattacks have time to be doing more damage than they are

That's what stumps me

[river wing]

that's just tuning
outlaw has no positive scaling with mechanics good for damage (i.e. damage amps or cleave) and has very negative scaling with mechanics bad for damage (downtime fucks you up more than anyone else, for instance)

which means it would have to either receive substantial fixes for some of that, or just be tuned much higher to the point of looking "overpowered" on an ST dummy

[novel birch]

In an era of WoW that massive enemy pulls is THE way to run a dungeon- entire rooms for fast clears- capping the one thing outlaw is good at (AoE) to 8 targets is insanity to me

unless I'm wrong, and blade flurry/rush hits everything, and it is just reduced damage beyond 8

[river wing]

outlaw is no longer all that good at AoE unless you're hitting between like 6 and 10 targets

any less or more, and you start falling behind others with more conventional softcaps but higher per-target damage before the cap

[static crescent]

I still think just higher ST would make us good

[novel birch]

I was chatting to my friend, who runs a frost mage, and he streamed his rotation to me, and he has to press a few buttons to hit like 200k dps consistently, maybe higher than that. I streamed to him, and I'm playing DDR on my fkn keyboard only to do under half of that

[river wing]

well higher ST would transfer well to BF, UNLESS it gets nerfed again, but it doesn't fix the problem of low target cleave being kinda trash or very high-target cleave being hardcapped

like any tuning that sidesteps that through sheer ST damage would probably land us in top-5 dps overall

(which is honestly...okay? it's not like it'd be a PROBLEM)

[wintry solar]

Reduced dmg beyond 8 targets

Blade rush

[river wing]

BR does hit everything, BF only ever hits 4/7 (plus main target)

[novel birch]

Unless flurry is up, right?

afaik

[river wing]

no, flurry just buffs secondary damage by 100%

[novel birch]

https://64.media.tumblr.com/b67f7d5124e74502c27aac2cd23a5700/e4efa64936f49aa0-77/s400x600/a0b21af1a2909b6ab20b904a979ba1b7cb77da97.gif

[river wing]

making it more or less equal to main target damage

[novel birch]

I know flurry makes it so Blade Rush does full damage to every target hit, but I didn't know it was still capped to 8 before it falls off

[river wing]

yeah it's softcapped

[novel birch]

Why? xD

That's really counter productive no?

Why give it a soft cap when no-other AoE class seems to suffer that same fate?

I guess we really are fatebound, huh?

[haughty sparrow]

!fuu

[ornate heath]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[river wing]

wym
p much all abilities are softcapped

non-capped stuff is the exception, not the rule

[novel birch]

I guess it just feels more noticeable on outlaw

I could also just be grasping at straws for a reason we feel so lacking

[static crescent]

I mean I think outlaw will never be invited or be profiled as aoe class, thats why i think the ST being dope and ur hammering bosses down, while having the same amount of aoe as now, i think would be fairly nice

that would mean when making a comp you would go "hmm i need some ST, what should i invite" and from there

[novel birch]

I don't think outlaws are actually bad besides their energy suffocation; we just feel bad because of the damage. On its own, it just isn't as high as it should be at a base level

[river wing]

if BF was uncapped (well, softcapped) with Dancing Steel, that would fix big packs
if PC was back as part of Grand Melee, that would fix small packs
toss a 10% aura on top and we're better than fine, we're super

[novel birch]

I did mess around with the damage numbers if we got a 10% buff. The info text for dispatch is like, 26,000 damage or something like that? 10% on top of that is 28,600

Which doesn't seem like a lot, but I'm pretty sure that's the lower end of dispatch excluding proks and buffs that can increase it

[river wing]

the only number you need to look at is the overall

when aura buffs are concerned

[novel birch]

Yeah, I just used what the info text said cause it's all I had xD

My point I made a few days ago, is what demograph of outlaws were they looking at to decide 4% would be enough to help us keep up?

Unless they know something we don't

[river wing]

they don't
they're just very cautious about buffing Rogue for some reason, always have been

[novel birch]

I can't say I understand why. There's nothing threatening about them, besides sub

I feel like they let PvP dictate buffing rogues too much. PvP is important to some, but I feel like PvE should take priority

[river wing]

sub as well
you can go to the sub channel and hear all about "sub performs well first week, gets slapped with a -8% and left to rot in the bottom third for three months"

which is not an uncommon occurence

[novel birch]

I feel it's gonna happen. Instead of making all rogues feel good, they'll nerf the one that does so they all feel shit

Which, imo, brings outlaw and assa's up, nerf sub a little, and just keep them at a relatively equal level, excelling at their specific areas. Don't kill them all off.

People, my friends too, tell me 'just change to Sub, or play a different class'. That's not the point. I shouldn't have to do that to feel like I can play the game the same way everyone else can

that's really stupid

[river wing]

considering how trash the current Outlaw and Assa kits are in pvp
that's not really a focus
whereas Sub has been historically strong in PvP regardless of damage simply because if it's playable at all, then it's a single-target CC machine that can burst okay even while nerfed to the ground

also they have separate PvP and PvE tuning so w/e

[novel birch]

I only played PvP in classics burning crusade to get my fury warrior the two hander weapons

It was kinda fun, but I know nothing else about PvP

I won't touch it with 10ft barge pole

[novel birch]

They do?

[river wing]

ye

[novel birch]

That's interesting... Where's this hesitance coming from then?

[river wing]

if you see "does not affect PvP combat" in notes, that's the difference

[river wing]

who knows
lately it feels like nobody simply cares about rogue as they do about some other classes
p sure pally has a massive fan on the team

[novel birch]

That seems like a pretty shitty way to run the game imo

personal bias should never be a factor

I think most of outlaws problems- as for most rogues- is energy. If it didn't drain so feverishly quickly, we'd be doing leagues better than we are now

we just flat line so fast, and once we do, that's it. You're kinda screwed unless you stand there and wait.

We are the hurry up and wait class

[snow hill]

I scrolled up to catch up on chat and this came out of nowhere and scared the fuck outta me. S'rong witchu?

[novel birch]

It scared you? Apologies xD

[formal knot]

It scared you? Good, will post again

[stuck bane]

so when do i use preperation exactly?

[patent mirage]

what if tea charges could refill , lets say when you kill smth or any other way

[stuck bane]

i feel like iam not using it properly, i just pop it as soon as i open fight

[novel birch]

or it's CD was affected by restless blades. It thematically doesn't make sense, but would be a mechanical god send

[eternal solstice]

what kind of fights are we talking about? you should open with AR -> RTB -> KIR

usually you want to use prep when you are on AR cd and your RTB is close to expiring and your BTE is on cd

[proven ocean]

@vivid vessel echo just started and they're same %

lol or?

[river wing]

outlaw shouldn't run outta energy all that often
maybe if you get really shitty luck on your stuff, like three DTs in a row and some unfortunate downtime or smth
make sure your haste is at least 20%, that helps a whole ton b/c at 5-10% haste it legit feels like shit, at 15% it's almost bearable, and at 20-25% it's ok

[gaunt phoenix]

might as well throw it in there

[novel birch]

I'm struggling with secondary stats atm, for sure. I have a lot of mastery for some reason. I'll screenshot it tho, cause I can't remember off the top of my head

I don't believe there's anything wrong with how I play, and my gear is good. I've learned a lot from this discord too, about how to maximize resources

[river wing]

outlaw mastery being trash is rly sad because sub and assa want mastery quite a bit and spec switching is fucked due to that
like sub is so slammy with 800-900 mast its unreal, but the same gearset is trash for Outlaw

[novel birch]

My versatility is fkd

[river wing]

nah it's fine

you won't be seeing much vers in S1 tbh

[novel birch]

Oh really? Fair enough

[river wing]

hitting 20-25% haste and lots of crit is usually much better

you'll have some vers overall, but unlikely that it'll go over 10%

[novel birch]

Ooooh, okay

Noted

It's big fights that cause issues usually. Dungeon bosses and stuff. My damage is already low compared to most classes, so all the burning I can do, it's done and I run out of thistle tea and energy, so it just gets wrose

[vivid vessel]

what ?

[formal knot]

echo just started and they're same %
lol or?

[still matrix]

this 263 matrix restabiliser sims like 200dps ahead of my maxed crucible

we take it

[blissful zinc]

Yo guys, is there purchasable combat cr this expansion?

[somber fractal]

Emergency soul link

[glass mortar]

Last expansions also work

(The tooltip says they don't but they did on Tuesday so unless they've hotfixed it)

[gaunt phoenix]

this trinket

seems

below par

[sharp wharf]

does anyone using ayjie cdm have roll the bones buff disappearing from ui?

[vivid vessel]

if you are using placeholder ye

like when it stays greyed out

seems bugged

[sharp wharf]

it happens also without but idk if there's any fix or maybe other addons don't have this problem

[gaunt phoenix]

zacc

[weary fog]

yeah ive had that issue both with and without ayjie

[gaunt phoenix]

did you know you can already play 2 ace on st and it's the same

[weary fog]

seems to come and go idk, it hasnt happened to me recent

[sharp wharf]

ye sometimes it doesn't happen for a while and sometimes 2x consecutive :S hope they fix

[remote pecan]

this is still building after ace though right?

[gaunt phoenix]

Yes

[vivid vessel]

i havent had it happen without idk

[vivid vessel]

oh its not even a ayjee issue

gg

[gaunt phoenix]

if it puts you at 5 which it doesnt always

[vivid vessel]

never getting fixed then

[vivid vessel]

really

its what

vs sleight

rught

[gaunt phoenix]

No it's with sleight

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/tb5u5JHM8UsVs919Bx4p5o

[vivid vessel]

i see

[gaunt phoenix]

same as ptr build

[vivid vessel]

i prefer 1 ace

feels worse pressing a builder at 5 cp

than 3

[gaunt phoenix]

it does

tho sometimes 2 ace puts you at 6

makes you miss what once was

[remote pecan]

whats the loss at just doing 5+ spenders with 2ace?

[vivid vessel]

its wierd tho i swear i never had the issue without having the placeholder thing

[gaunt phoenix]

it was 0.7% here #1065730004920586350 message

[proven ocean]

Echo maybe win..

Lol or?

[remote pecan]

0.7% of 0 is still zero so worth the loss imo

[vivid vessel]

they are same pull count same %

what you mean

[proven ocean]

Pull count is irrelevant

How do u not know that already

[weary fog]

i cant recreate it, but i swear it was happening to me with default CDM

[proven ocean]

Echo won alot of rwf with much less pulls does that make them alot better? No

They just won thats all

And liquid wins with more pulls

[weary fog]

sometimes it happens multiple times a dungeon, sometimes i go a day without it happening i literally have no idea

[proven ocean]

Does that mean echo played better?

lol or?

[proven ocean]

@formal knot

[formal knot]

cuh outlaw gang on fleek sheesh, lol or? 🧢

[proven ocean]

Werety

cuh outlaw gang on fleek sheesh, lol or? 🧢

[glass mortar]

yes

EU > NA

😠

[proven ocean]

Zac doesnt allow his friends to use panda pfp

[vivid vessel]

i swear this is a lie

[proven ocean]

Only you

[formal knot]

im flying under the radar

[proven ocean]

Zac…

Why cant i use panda pfp..

..

[vivid vessel]

but

[glass mortar]

panda....

[vivid vessel]

its you

that

@ ed me

about pull count

[proven ocean]

?

[vivid vessel]

so wdym

[glass mortar]

guys... zeross doesnt know what pooh is......

[proven ocean]

What

[desert tendon]

why cant you?

[proven ocean]

I told u %

[vivid vessel]

bro idk

[proven ocean]

Not pull count

[vivid vessel]

ye so

[proven ocean]

Lol or?

[vivid vessel]

what does it matter

[glass mortar]

zeross has never seen a bear in his life.......

[vivid vessel]

im c0nfused

[proven ocean]

U said i mentioned pull count

[proven ocean]

This

Bro gaslighting

[vivid vessel]

well idk

[proven ocean]

Dont idk me

[vivid vessel]

what was your point then

[proven ocean]

??

Zac is dense today