And we're just ignoring it
#outlaw
inland acorn
static crescent
is there another tuning round next weeks friday planned
proven ocean
??
static crescent
there was right
proven ocean
130 something
frail veldt
is there another tuning round next weeks friday planned
if they didnt buff us this week why would they buff us next week
proven ocean
stop @ing me tryting to sleep...
static crescent
xd
quaint wharf
this is the tuning
the final notes are out?
vivid vessel
outlaw is once again the worse rogue spec in raid ?
no shot
who could have predicted that
slim hare
its not like
copper radish
who could have predicted that
Maybe they’ll buff us next season
slim hare
its been 2 week
domming and yapping saying we will be the worth spec
guy saying it was fine
then now we are right
karmic stag
At this point take us outback and hit us with a 6 point opportunity pistol shot
slim hare
who could have guessed
slim hare
its not like that every season ?
cinder relic
Sin is better on half the bosses this tier
quaint wharf
wait did they forget to add rogue to the notes what happened
copper radish
wait did they forget to add rogue to the notes what happened
Next year
slim hare
they did not forgot
karmic stag
Rogue notes are there, just in stealth
slim hare
it is intentional
slim hare
comeback next season
long depot
what are these patch notes
vivid vessel
@cinder relic have you tweeted yet
tough ocean
Sin is better on half the bosses this tier
W tweet
slim hare
vivid vessel
even I can't defend this
no wae
even you ?
its definitly over
pack it up
reroll sub
azure vortex
Race ended buff rogue
long depot
even I can't defend this
what should I even play atp?
slim hare
reroll sub
so playing a shit spec, the call is to reroll to another shitter spec ?
vivid vessel
yes !
tough ocean
what should I even play atp?
play what you find fun
thats the entire point of the game
frail veldt
@cinder relic is your guild benching rogue on prog?
craggy quiver
Time to reroll survival the real outlaw spec
frail veldt
I can only imagine thats why guy is dooming for the first time since I joined this disc
mighty pivot
guy has been successfully converted 
copper radish
reroll sub
Reroll another class 😂
buoyant cosmos
Rogue gets to come back to raid, but we have to press expose armor again
copper radish
Time to reroll survival the real outlaw spec
Dual wielding too 👀
daring yoke
Bruh wtff can solo and guy dm the devs about our tuning. They probably forgot to pen it in the notes 😭
karmic stag
Devs have them on an ignore so they can honestly say they never got the feedback
formal thunder
guys
slim hare
Bruh wtff can solo and guy dm the devs about our tuning. They probably forgot to...
single dollar company forgetting a spec ? that could never happen !!
formal thunder
Unholy can fuck you on the last boss of Nexus Point
their fucking ghouls can just randomly interrupt a clone and wipe the group
next shuttle
Can't perform low if none perform at all
keen belfry
whyd they forget ouytlaw in tuning again
formal thunder
it's also the only fuckign thing they interrupt
slim hare
stealth in rwf
azure vortex
Chatgpt deleted rogue notes while editing guys dont worry
haughty wigeon
whyd they forget ouytlaw in tuning again
Cause tuning means nothing when the design is shit
I don’t want them to buff prep until prep is good
I want prep gone
keen belfry
tuning means something
slim hare
give us 100% dmg
cinder relic
<@96834520417828864> is your guild benching rogue on prog?
uh idk yet
were playing a rogue on dragons but no idea abt paladins
slim hare
tuning mean shit it ddoesnt matter right ? right ??
cinder relic
If the damage check is fake then its not even bad cuz the damage output on the fight is kinda insane
even if the damage is nonexistant
craggy quiver
Man I don't even have daggers feelsbad
daring yoke
Its tough life being an outlaw addict. Every season/xpax you think itd be different. But got baited again and again. Fuuuuuuuuckkkkkk 😭
I gave my wrist for outlaw 😭
azure vortex
I got jbaited into playing this game, leveled my rogue to 90 yesterday, dont even have a guild, am i cooked
vivid vessel
which means i would have played outlaw on the hardest boss this tier
outlaw tier ?
thoguhts ?
prisma lantern
Man I don't even have daggers feelsbad
Well they fixed the recraft bug. 👀
static crescent
wish they would just change outlaw to be terrible to play
then i could just go away
but its so nice
copper radish
outlaw tier ?
You should make an arms
long depot
I got jbaited into playing this game, leveled my rogue to 90 yesterday, dont eve...
Yea I just started wow like a month ago and got convinced to make a Rogue for my first class
karmic stag
Yea I just started wow like a month ago and got convinced to make a Rogue for my...
Because “you can only go up from here” is perfect for new players
daring yoke
Yea I just started wow like a month ago and got convinced to make a Rogue for my...
Trust it will get better
azure vortex
Yeah, i played like 5-6 seasons, maining rogue, sometimes i wonder how it would feel playing a real class
blazing island
When is the right time to close this discord? 😄 😄
karmic stag
A long time ago. And it’s not even a “the second best time is now” scenario. Also Blizzard would have to pay attention to us for it to matter
blazing island
Maybe they just forgot we even exist 😄 we need to make a wowhead headline I think 😄
mighty pivot
lil bro got scammed
mighty pivot
don't worry, it's only alpha beta prepatch preseason hc week week 1 of mythic
daring yoke
Maybe they just forgot we even exist 😄 we need to make a wowhead headline I thi...
I remember i think it was guy made a wowhead article and we got our bug immediately fixed. I think its time 😭
copper radish
don't worry, it's only ~~alpha beta prepatch preseason hc week~~ week 1 of mythi...
We shoulda submitted more feedback things on the beta smh
mighty pivot
rogues' fault for not givin any feedback at all frfr
cinder relic
If we just complained in discord more we'd be OP
karmic stag
Too starved for energy to leave feedback
copper radish
If we just complained in discord more we'd be OP
It’s working great so far
slim hare
If we just complained in discord more we'd be OP
wdym more ?
mighty pivot
time to shut down ravenholdt in protest 👀
karmic stag
Then complain about corrupted ashbringer or whatever they have to complain about instead
azure vortex
Blizzard may buff rogue if we identify as survival hunter maybe?
crude flower
mighty pivot
eu forums are left on unread by blizzard
keen belfry
do u guys think maybe they just forgot to post th eoutlaw stuff?
eternal hound
"Is this game really eolves into League" yeah if you play at any high end yup
It is
copper radish
do u guys think maybe they just forgot to post th eoutlaw stuff?
Did anyone check the actual blue post instead of wowhead
mighty pivot
do u guys think maybe they just forgot to post th eoutlaw stuff?
they will just post them on monday no reason to panic. 100% trust them 
fathom bramble
do u guys think maybe they just forgot to post th eoutlaw stuff?
I think that buffs to rogue had to be a given after what we saw/are seeing in mythic raid
in order for this to make sense we ahve to assume the notes are unfinished
otherwise it's just doomed nonsense and idk what to do with that
balmy topaz
Yes
quaint wharf
im actually surprised zac didnt crash out harder
mighty pivot
tbh that's not a lie if they just expected rogues to perform like this
slim hare
noticing you can do double or even triple damage depending on the rng of your pull
slim hare
tbh that's not a lie if they just expected rogues to perform like this
exactly
zinc briar
we have to fire outlaw dev
daring yoke
Just make rtb roll jackpot 100% and we shud be good 😭
zinc briar
Just make rtb roll jackpot 100% and we shud be good 😭
to win the tank
slim hare
so basically 150 % energy regen and 50% aura buff = remove rtb
mighty pivot
loaded dice should just make rtb an empowered cast, and after 4s it's a jackpot
fathom bramble
demonic suggestion
slim hare
i want PC
mighty pivot
popo would crash out
slim hare
PC and we are cracked
mighty pivot
PC would be cool though
fathom bramble
bring back uhuh and remove subterfuge
leaden folio
bring back acrobatic strike and canonball barrage
stiff vector
I think that buffs to rogue had to be a given after what we saw/are seeing in my...
after last tier I expect nothing. Manaforged was abysmal for outlaw and it was basically the only spec that didnt get an ounce of tuning, why should we expect any different this tier tbh
slim hare
acrobatic also a shame we lost it
fathom bramble
I never said outlaw
slim hare
it was really cool
fathom bramble
I said rogue
fathom bramble
I have basically no expectation that an outlaw tier will ever happen
I accepted that long ago
outlaw will occasionally be "good enough" or "arguably better"
and that's good enough for me
slim hare
I accepted that long ago
thats why zac is not crashing out
resignation 😢
i pity you guys
frail veldt
Funny thing is there's less outlaws than there are some tank specs above 1800 in shuffle
zinc briar
we have to fire outlaw dev
frail veldt
The spec is so giga ded rn
river wing
I have basically no expectation that an outlaw tier will ever happen
it is impossible unless Outlaw itself changes and I don't mean damage numbers
stiff vector
I mean its not even about necessarily being an outlaw tier, the bar is "can you fucking tune the spec to not be unplayably bad" and blizzard is failing at even that for the 2nd tier in a row
vivid vessel
resignation 😢
i did accept that outlaw will never be good in raid and that i will just play sub every tier in prog
zinc briar
i will find him
vivid vessel
i definitly didnt expect that outlaw being bad would also transfer to keys
for some reasons
slim hare
wtf zac
vivid vessel
outlaw was the key spec when i started the game
slim hare
then
vivid vessel
it was good
vivid vessel
now it has the smae issues in keys it has in raid
slim hare
follow guy trend
vivid vessel
the spec is not designed for raid
zinc briar
gl playing sub
river wing
ngl outlaw does leave a lot of "ok if I can just hit a stationary target forever, then it works and the only issue is actual damage tuning" vibes
vivid vessel
ok i guess
mighty pivot
delve spec
vivid vessel
then its unplayabel aswell
wicked ether
the spec is not designed for keys
the spec is not designed period.
vivid vessel
idk i just dont get why outlaw isnt allowed to have a niche
while other specs are good at everything
outlaw cant even be good at 1 thing
quaint wharf
it does have a niche
stiff vector
ye, does tank dmg in low target cleave, isnt even good at our target cap. Shit energy in keys, significantly less tanky now, brings 0 value to group. Also losing agency to our dmg honestly feels so terrible, basically feels like damage output is completely rng now...you either roll Jackpot and get a bunch of BtE resets, or you dont and you do 0 dam
quaint wharf
u gamble if ur dmg is good or bad
wintry phoenix
while other specs are good at everything
No spec should be goot at everything, yet blizzard fails to deliver that
leaden folio
you think its a rogue problem
stiff vector
at least before you had some agency over your damage, ace % was higher, and your damage was much more predicated by playing the spec well(ofc there was still elements of rng). Now the spec is braindead easy to play and your dmg is entirely predicated on rng
leaden folio
they bring 10 range and 3 melee
of course you dont have a rogue when you want less melee as possible and you need 2 dk
uneven charm
logging in to like that post, it's just insane how much they don't want us in anything
fathom bramble
if rogues did damage you would still bring them
slim hare
you want less melee as possible this is usually the case yet we are still brought most of the time in RWF
fathom bramble
at least on some of these fights
slim hare
so its not a rogue problem
fathom bramble
but they made a raid with a ton of split cleave and 2 target cleave
while nerfing our cleave into the ground
slim hare
its a being too shit problem
uneven charm
only reason I get keys, is because I also play shammy resto, so they let me sub in to get crests and gear because I help them skip wait times
quaint wharf
PC wouldve went hard this tier
slim hare
its criminal to have taken out pc
leaden folio
the entire fight of cosmos is design to not dealing dmg to the boss, so you can't apply your poison; there is no value of our utility
stiff vector
and they also tuned most of the ranged to be extremely good, on top of making the raid extremely range biased. Truly impressive level of incompetence.
slim hare
and they also tuned most of the ranged to be extremely good, on top of making th...
its intentionnal
cinder relic
atro is still good its just rogue (and most melee) are bad on most of these encounters
slim hare
fathom bramble
they also put a very easy melee biased boss early in the raid
so all the stats make it look not quite as bad as it really is
which is very funny to me
slim hare
so all the stats make it look not quite as bad as it really is
true they might just be that stupid
i really dont know if its pure incompetence (legit why are the balance people paid ?) or intentional
i find it hard to think its not intentionnal
tired rune
we are so cooked
fathom bramble
i find it hard to think its not intentionnal
again like I said earlier
cinder relic
Rogue sucks, it should have been buffed
fathom bramble
they have to be unfinished notes
cinder relic
Idt its much deeper than that though
fathom bramble
I refuse to believe it is intentional to sit like that
tired rune
stiff vector
I mean can atro really be that valuable when its basically 100% the first raid buff you would consider dropping if you needed to make room for stacking "x" good spec on a boss during prog. Its easily the most "disposable" buff that you can live without.
cinder relic
I mean can atro really be that valuable when its basically 100% the first raid b...
Atro is very good yes
ROgue is undertuned, and the raid isnt that hard
azure vortex
100% chatgpt removed rogue notes and they didnt realize that before posting
cinder relic
Thats all it is
vivid vessel
atro is still the worse raid buff tho
fathom bramble
I mean can atro really be that valuable when its basically 100% the first raid b...
atro is better than the paladin buff, but pally buff is often brought by a tank or healer so
long depot
They are buffing arcane mage?? isn't that 1 of the top specs rn?
cinder relic
^
fathom bramble
it is the first dps raid buff that is dropped though for sure
drowsy ridge
Atro, while good, is also very invisible compared to pure stats
cinder relic
They brought ret into council JUST for the paladin buff
If rogue wasn't dead last on paladins, it'd be a rogue in as well or instead of
vivid vessel
also because paladin does damage not rogue
you can say its a good raid buff if you want
jolly geyser
ret palas keep hammering dmg
hasty warren
wicked ether
Ret has some nice utility
vivid vessel
it still way worse than any opf the other real raid buffs
cinder relic
if ret paladin and rogue were swapped damage profile, ud play a rogue over ret paladin
Like, ret was played on the paladin boss FOR dev aura
that was the only reason
and atro is better than dev aura
the reason rogue was sat was because the damage was exceptionally bad
slim hare
if ret paladin and rogue were swapped damage profile, ud play a rogue over ret p...
how is our dmage profile different rn ? its just damage
vivid vessel
the reason rogue was sat was because the damage was exceptionally bad
ok but you would never sit a warrior
or a druid
or a monk
frail veldt
atro is still the worse raid buff tho
Evoker
vivid vessel
or a dh
cinder relic
how is our dmage profile different rn ? its just damage
I just mean actual damage
stiff vector
yeah I mean you can rly only make that argument for ret. Holy at least brings aura mastery, and prot brings spellwarding for when that is relevant on some bosses for prog.
vivid vessel
or a mage
frail veldt
Evoker is the worst
vivid vessel
so like
cinder relic
hpal is dogshit worthless
vivid vessel
or a shaman
cinder relic
Prot paladin is also dogshit worthless
vivid vessel
or a hutner
tired rune
its been 84 years and we're still shit
cinder relic
Guys I'm all for saying rogue is shit, because it is, but like, plz be realistic
leaden folio
you cant apply you atro for the entire fight, when you dont deal dmg for 6sec, atro dont exist right ?
slim hare
Evoker is the worst
thats crazy wrong imo
cinder relic
they brought a ret paladin in for the aura buff
If rogue was tuned better on paladins, it'd be a rogue instead
azure vortex
Rogue 5% crit buff to group when?
cinder relic
That's just the reality
slim hare
always crazy stuff making movement possible thanks to that buff
quaint wharf
they brought a ret paladin in for the aura buff
If rogue was tuned better on pal...
Ye max said this himself
frail veldt
thats crazy wrong imo
Shorter movement CD? Bruh
slim hare
yeah
frail veldt
The fuck outta here
vivid vessel
bvut its still a dogshit raid buff compared to a real raid buff tho
quaint wharf
Atro wouldve fed families on paladins, but the dmg being terrible out weighed it
fathom bramble
evoker also does bring very real raid utility that can secure even a 2nd evoker spot just for that
slim hare
i think its so undervalued except in RWF
fathom bramble
even if evoker buff is worse on a ton of fights
frail veldt
It shaves off like a few seconds from most
jolly geyser
I lvld my ret abit, I felt like I was ulting mobs
frail veldt
Yeah evoker as a whole is great
leaden folio
they brought a ret paladin in for the aura buff
If rogue was tuned better on pal...
did atro have 100% uptime on vanguard ? its impossible to apply the atro correctly
cinder relic
did atro have 100% uptime on vanguard ? its impossible to apply the atro correct...
Atro gets more value than dev aurao on council
U can just look at it on logs
It mitgates more dmg
wicked ether
Problem with Atro is that if even the WF Raider dont care, why should some Top 200 World Guild with 10% more Stamina/Survivality Care about a 3,something% DamageReduce Buff, all other Buffs will always be more desirable.
cinder relic
Problem with Atro is that if even the WF Raider dont care, why should some Top 2...
Thats an entierly different argument
Rogue is bad on that boss, and most of the raid
vivid vessel
and atro is a shit raid buff you can afford to not take
random stirrup
If rogue wasn't dead last on paladins, it'd be a rogue in as well or instead of
ok but name another raid buff that they would drop in that scenaro other than devo aura
slim hare
Problem with Atro is that if even the WF Raider dont care, why should some Top 2...
i think its way more valuable for those guilds x) they make more mistake, so the value is much higher
vivid vessel
let me see run a boss without a war bro
random stirrup
like they will never ever drop AI or dh or druid
cinder relic
RWF would literally care about Atro, if rogue wasn't bad
vivid vessel
:D
edgy walrus
a class with a unique raid buff completely left out of the race should be a gigantic red flag 
vivid vessel
and yet
random stirrup
you dont care how bad the other raid buff classes are ever
leaden folio
let me see run a boss without a war bro
warlock still the best class with gate & stone
cinder relic
They literally brought in a paladin for dev aura
random stirrup
you will always have a druid or dh or mage no matter what
slim hare
RWF would literally care about Atro, if rogue wasn't bad
tbf they usually do
cinder relic
Yes other raid buffs are better
wintry phoenix
I think the argument guy is making here is that this raid is particularly bad for rogues, plus the tuning is also bad
shell fossil
@tired rune outlaw 
slim hare
zac saying its a shit raid buff is also true there is spec they could never go without
zinc briar
0 motivation to play the game tbh
cinder relic
0 motivation to play the game tbh
Quit then
stiff vector
Theres almost never a time you arent bringing a pally though(and this has been historically true dating back the last like 3 xpacs of tiers). This tier is the closest to a situation where you would consider not bringing a pally. Its been played on the vast majority of bosses during the last like 10 races
wicked ether
If Rogue would buff 3% crit taken or 3% haste gained they would be an auto include. Some of those were already part of the Toolkit of Rogue in the Past.
cinder relic
Theres almost never a time you arent bringing a pally though(and this has been h...
There has also never been a time you aren't bringing a rogue lol
cinder relic
This is like the first in literal years
fathom bramble
this is the first tier this bad since we got atrophic lol
random stirrup
atro is a shit raid buff specifically because you describe it as "sometimes very valuable but this time they drop it because rogue is bad" - the others are all universally valuable
slim hare
like its ok
fathom bramble
and every other fight they sat all the rogues on was one where atro didn't work
random stirrup
This is like the first in literal years
and you can count forge/stix for this
its part of atro
fathom bramble
and you can count forge/stix for this
and every other fight they sat all the rogues on was one where atro didn't work
cinder relic
If paladin was as bad rogue is righ tnow, u'd not of played paladin on that fight either lol
uneven charm
I think about m+
fathom bramble
this is the first time EVER we have seen rogue sat on bosses where atro actually works
uneven charm
As we get to higher keys, 11 and up
fathom bramble
because tuning is just that bad
uneven charm
My tanks wanna pull big
cinder relic
and you can count forge/stix for this
U played rogue on forgeweaver cuz rogue was OP
uneven charm
My target capped ass ain't doing shit
cinder relic
Lol
fathom bramble
some guilds didn't even play a rogue on forgeweaver
cinder relic
they tried to sit it, because atro didnt work, and then it was like "Oh right rogue is OP on this boss"
vivid vessel
this is the first time EVER we have seen rogue sat on bosses where atro actually...
if tuning is that bad why arent we in tuning notes? do you think blizzard is clueless or what
fathom bramble
I don't remember which rwf one did it though
random stirrup
U played rogue on forgeweaver cuz rogue was OP
yes but you wouldn't have if it wasnt tuned well
fathom bramble
if tuning is that bad why arent we in tuning notes? do you think blizzard is clu...
who knows
leaden folio
tired rune
<@366406617304006668> outlaw <:starege:923197272064426075>
lmao fuck sake man
cinder relic
yes but you wouldn't have if it wasnt tuned well
Its very rare that rogue is both undertuned, and atro doesn't work
fathom bramble
i'm choosing to believe for now that the notes are unfinished
vivid vessel
i didnt have to wait for these non tuning notes to form an opinion on blizzard cluelessness
cinder relic
Like, I'm all for being like, rogue sucks whatever, but like, this is a very abnormal tier for rogue tuning
random stirrup
Its very rare that rogue is both undertuned, and atro doesn't work
my singular only argument is that there is no other raid buff where you can have this set of circumstances lead to sitting them
other than devo
and grip if you count it
cinder relic
100% count grip
slim hare
atp its either pure , unrivaled , absolute incompetence or intentionnal "lets kill that playerbase / thats the sacrifial lam in trolley tuning problem"
dense forge
any ragebaiters?
tired rune
I didnt hav white in my beard the last time outlaw was good
random stirrup
atro is the worst of the "buff" raid buffs
uneven charm
Again, rogue is a dps class without any useful party assistance
random stirrup
except evoker ig but who counts that
slim hare
any ragebaiters?
close discord?
fathom bramble
evoker is like DK
lime lake
any ragebaiters?
rogue tuning isnt even that bad
slim hare
at which point is it ok to do it
fathom bramble
bad/no raidbuff but they bring other stuff that is actually good
dense forge
close discord?
i need something better
slim hare
surely this is it no ?
stiff vector
I mean if you compare atrophic to other raid buffs, most other raid buffs will keep a class in the raid regardless of tuning because the buff is valuable. That isnt the case with atrophic. You bring rogue if its tuned well, and if its not then oh well you can live without atrophic nbd
random stirrup
ye spatial is a better buff than their raid buff
cinder relic
I mean if you compare atrophic to other raid buffs, most other raid buffs will k...
There have been lots of tiers where rogue is "just alright" and u still play a rogue, because of atrophic
This is just like, not accurate at all lmao
vivid vessel
WAHT
narrow pasture
i need something better
we'll scale with more stats and myth gear
slim hare
legit years being brought to raid cause of "good tuning" that can be argued but we were brought, and now we are not ... surely its the point where we can close the discord?
or what is that point ?
cinder relic
we NEED to get better jokes
random stirrup
it was funny exactly the first time
leaden folio
wintry phoenix
Rets close their discord
Everyone makes fun of them
People ask to close other discords
quaint wharf
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/316923682607857685/1413242281515024545/im...
This one doesnt get old to be fair
leaden folio
mighty pivot
lime lake
close the discord is never going anywhere
vivid vessel
lime lake
its in the wow discord zeitgeist now
slim hare
https://tenor.com/p0pCN5TfwmH.gif
damn that a good one
river wing
closing the discord is a move only ret pala could pull
the most entitled little shits who get everything and want even more
jolly geyser
I dont see eu people doing the close discord
cinder relic
Rogue bad rn
Atro => Dev aura
Even with mid tuning rogue usually sees play because of atro
Rogue exceptionally bad on paladins to not see play
Alleria easy enough where it doesn't really matter
They are also splitting the raid mega rn
Hopium for next raid
slim hare
what i see is
Rets close their discord
Everyone makes fun of them
Rets get what they want
People ask to close other discords
random stirrup
the discord closing had nothing to do with it
lime lake
what actually happened is blizzard did what they literally always do
cinder relic
No flame but y ou are beyond dumb if you think closing the discord had anything to do with class buffs
Like genuinely
wintry phoenix
It'll be really funny if the next 2 bosses are so insanely easy liquid gets them before echo is even allowed to play
cinder relic
It'll be really funny if the next 2 bosses are so insanely easy liquid gets them...
U should read the dungeon journal
jolly geyser
just look at ret pala player numbers
vivid vessel
Theres no world allura is easy
ok but
they will come onto the boss
with 10 mythic splits
fathom bramble
people talking like the raid is easy because the most dedicated guilds in the world are killing all but the last 2 in a few days
leaden folio
new patchnote
click on it
ctr+f and type rogue
fathom bramble
like they always do....
cinder relic
If you had max ilvl gear u still die to fyrak a bunch
stiff vector
I said to my friend they should do a myth split with almost all melee to see how difficult the raid actually is, since it was too easy playing 95% ranged. Would be entertaining at least.
jolly geyser
why do we compare ourselves with rwf?
prisma lantern
It'll be really funny if the next 2 bosses are so insanely easy liquid gets them...
If 8th boss goes down in this window, midnight falls likely gets hot buffed to be impossible for a reset.
fathom bramble
why do we compare ourselves with rwf?
RWF is the first available decent indicator of class balance, while it's not a whole picture it is the most useful picture at this time
vivid vessel
liquid one pulled every boss till paladin tho
leaden folio
you cant even use your stealth before engaging dimensius as outlaw, you think blizzard have something to do with our class ?
vivid vessel
i cant imagine raid gonna be much harder for most
cinder relic
random stirrup
halondrus the goat
stiff vector
sounds like fyrakk seeds/halondrus thingies
jolly geyser
RWF is the first available decent indicator of class balance, while it's not a w...
just tune more aggressivly, race or not.
but eh
true
fathom bramble
I actually detest the fact that proper tuning is held off by RWF
vivid vessel
just tune more aggressivly, race or not.
they dont do that
olive star
<:garf_sit:1334889429449314456>
JUST WAIT
fathom bramble
RWF should be forced to adapt and prepare diverse specs
not hold off to cater to them
olive star
EVERY 1:30
cinder relic
Guys this allura fight might be a lil difficult
olive star
LOCK IN
cinder relic
vivid vessel
rogue would have been buffed by now if it wasnt for race
change my mind
@olive star all your fault
jolly geyser
I actually detest the fact that proper tuning is held off by RWF
I dislike rwf
cinder relic
EVERY 1:30
Every 1:30?
prisma lantern
just tune more aggressivly, race or not.
And deal with all the RWF fans bitching about their favorite team wasting hundreds of hours on splits for 5+ perfectly geared hunters?
Lol Blizzard wouldn't dare.
vivid vessel
Every 1:30?
cant believe its another sub tier and guy tried to gaslight me into thinking it was an outalw tier
when will it stop
vivid vessel
i mean i have accepterd it tho
slim hare
wont happen
river wing
was it ever really outlaw tier? outlaw M+ season in one season of BfA, I hear, but tier?
slim hare
then how do u get gaslighted ?
vivid vessel
idk i didnt
cinder relic
was it ever really outlaw tier? outlaw M+ season in one season of BfA, I hear, b...
Castle nathria, vault of the incarnates
jolly geyser
icc, but that wasnt outlaw was it
slim hare
and you were wrong !
jolly geyser
or cata
slim hare
its a no rogue tier !
slim hare
yeah i know
river wing
Castle nathria, vault of the incarnates
been a while then
hmmm
leaden folio
outlaw was good in legion
slim hare
but its still worse than another sub tier
fathom bramble
in guilds that don't have infinite cringe splits you'll see rogue still probably
slim hare
its a rogue shit tier
wicked ether
Even if Rogue got buffed, how much would it need to be to contest a Range Damage Dealer in this Raidtier, the fight design is just so perfect for Range Damage Dealers, Melee is clunky as hell.
jolly geyser
outlaw was good in legion
ass just did it better
river wing
yea it is kinda ranged tier
jolly geyser
played it
vivid vessel
my guild will have a rogue guys !
maybe evne a rogue on paladin boss
whatdehelly
no wae
slim hare
PC on outlaw ! atleast we can do something on paladin
cinder relic
Even if Rogue got buffed, how much would it need to be to contest a Range Damage...
Really they'd just need to just rebuff the cleave nerfs they did to all 3 specs
If they did that rogue woudl be fine
cuz itd just be played on paladins, over a paladin
cinder relic
and then it'd probably see play on alleria too, even if the cleave doesn't matter much on that fight, it'd just have gotten all the raid gear
slim hare
which is almost all of it
leaden folio
remember when they nerf BF on beta ? I remember
stiff vector
who could have guessed removing PC and nerfing BF from 50% to 30% would completely nuke our 2-5t cleave...no one could have seen this coming!
slim hare
guy can you pin the bf change being bad ?
cinder relic
guy can you pin the bf change being bad ?
What are you talking about
slim hare
maybe bring some attntion to our 2-5t
jolly geyser
also blizz seems to read just US mostly
wicked ether
Problem is next tier they will overcorrect like they always do and we have some dense area cleave and rogue will be busted then, i mean in m+ sub rogue is pretty nice, not MM Hunter Broken but good enough.
slim hare
and bf energy situation while we are it
copper radish
outlaw in SOD was the last time i may have had fun in a raid....
cinder relic
maybe bring some attntion to our 2-5t
THIS DISCORD HAS NO INFLUENCE ON BALANCE
vivid vessel
tell twitter what they did to bf tho
slim hare
who could have guessed removing PC and nerfing BF from 50% to 30% would complete...
talking about this basically @cinder relic
fathom bramble
outlaw in SOD was the last time i may have had fun in a raid....
glad that was the tier where I played sub on prog and then quit the game for 2 months 🙂
stiff vector
there is absolutely 0 reason deft should increase BF energy cost by 30, especially with how much they nerfed energy
edgy walrus
someone find out that bf is bugged and hitting dead targets again
we need another article
vivid vessel
someone find out that bf is bugged and hitting dead targets again
new dev prolly reverted the hotfix from last time
slim hare
THIS DISCORD HAS NO INFLUENCE ON BALANCE
you can't say that when a ping get shit fixed or nrfed in a week
edgy walrus
cinder relic
you can't say that when a ping get shit fixed or nrfed in a week
the ping didnt
that was a wowhead article I made
I'm not making a wowhead articlef or "rogue sucks"
vivid vessel
you are telling me if i dispatch a mob and kill it in my transmog runs in that old raid it doesnt bf ?
hm
let me fix that real quick
jolly geyser
I tweeted if they can get a dev with hands to look at rogue
slim hare
then make a wowhead post, about outlaw and the state of it design wise, (acee not complete cp to be the most enjoyable, BF energy / dmg split 1 or 8 target )
idk there is much to talk about
bugs are better (not a single on being annoying)
you know an entire article
cinder relic
This isnt how the game works
leaden folio
slim hare
then how does it works ?
legit question, what should we do then ?
leaden folio
vivid vessel
slim hare
you can change all of that 
leaden folio
ask dratnos change his tierlist
indigo token
dont worry guys they buffed psychic link by 5%
fathom bramble
https://www.wowhead.com/guide/classes/tier-lists/dps-rankings-raids
that tierlist literally has rogue as the worst class
cinder relic
then how does it works ?
legit question, what should we do then ?
Wait until next tier?
Like tf
vivid vessel
(repeat every tier)
leaden folio
bro
slim hare
wtf is that
leaden folio
max saying they could not bring the rogue on the tier of tww
slim hare
how is waiting on a live service game okay
cinder relic
how is waiting on a live service game okay
???
What live service game do u play man
This is how it always works
lime lake
indigo token
how is waiting on a live service game okay
lmao what
prisma lantern
how is waiting on a live service game okay
If they gave you what you wanted you'd stop paying them. 😂
Every live service game does this.
slim hare
then you are not willing to complain and prefer to wait like every fucking tier
and things doesnt get better they get worse
and you still think doing the same things is ok
fathom bramble
I mean things were getting better for a very long time
slim hare
isnt that fucking insanity
vivid vessel
I mean things were getting better for a very long time
for outlaw ?
fathom bramble
too many class changes all at once + new UI focuses
and they just fucked everything
dark ember
I'm gonna be real with you fellas
Is Supercharger & Forced Induction only good under the context that at least one of em is getting a BtE or Killing Spree?
Because I ain't intentionally setting that up I'm just letting x2 Dispatches happen if they do.
slim hare
I mean things were getting better for a very long time
ok that true tho things did get better in some way i'm just not partial against bugs
fathom bramble
for outlaw ?
maybe a better phrasing is "have been better than the past for a long time"
I know you didn't play 1000 years ago but the balance of this specific tier use to be the norm
leaden folio
they remove everything, the +3meter, the apm, the fun of rtb, the identity of outlaw ;
I legit reroll and stop playing my outlaw that I have otp since 10 year, I have almost 3 year played on my toon and didnt levelup it for midnight
leaden folio
its terrible
vivid vessel
I know you didn't play 1000 years ago but the balance of this specific tier use ...
ok sure
cinder relic
you said if we complain more wed be op
I was being sarcastic
fathom bramble
but this is just terrible
slim hare
I was being sarcastic
i know but the rest still stand
vivid vessel
everytier
fathom bramble
yeah that's probably fair
dark ember
Basically is Lethality Cold Blooded still worse than x2 Dispatch Supercharger & Forced Induction - or is the latter only good under the context of a specific setup?
vivid vessel
its now in a state there is litteraly now good thing about the spec both in keys and in raid
not talking about tunign
slim hare
doing the same is not okay when the result is what we currently have
narrow pasture
Basically is Lethality Cold Blooded still **worse** than x2 Dispatch Supercharge...
just do whatever and go with the vibes, it doesnt matter
cinder relic
doing the same is not okay when the result is what we currently have
Genuienly waht do u want to do
eternal hound
I know you didn't play 1000 years ago but the balance of this specific tier use ...
I think the owrst part is it was so easy to call from a mile away
lucid sparrow
just saying since i started playing
so if you stop playing outlaw it will be good again
alr guys we found the solution
vivid vessel
maybe ..
lucid sparrow
off u go to windwalker
eternal hound
so if you stop playing outlaw it will be good again
Chief by this logic I should quit the game
stiff vector
not talking about tunign
ye the things im most annoyed about isnt even tuning. Its just how they literally did nothing but nerf the spec and make it less fun, and remove agency from your damage for Midnight. Rogue got completely fucked with midnight changes.
eternal hound
so all the specs I play aren't sandbagged for no reason 
vivid vessel
ye the things im most annoyed about isnt even tuning. Its just how they literall...
it didnt start in midngiht tho
wintry phoenix
When was the last time outlaw was genuinely good in raid
slim hare
Genuienly waht do u want to do
idk you tell me how it works it was a genuine question.
my idea now is state of spec wowhead article talking about the good part and the bad one, give them idea...
lucid sparrow
Chief by this logic I should quit the game
talking about zac not u freak
dark ember
I'll come back and try asking again when the crying circle is over
fathom bramble
When was the last time outlaw was genuinely good in raid
triple DH boss last tier
stiff vector
ye ofc it didnt start in midnight, but midnight made the most significant and numerous dogshit changes in one patch
lucid sparrow
I'll come back and try asking again when the crying circle is over
next tier bro
vivid vessel
ye ofc it didnt start in midnight, but midnight made the most significant and nu...
tww did imo
we lost everything for tww
leaden folio
triple DH boss last tier
vivid vessel
we had cleave niche and tww gave cleave to the other 2 specs, similarly we had prio damage niche and they gave that to the other 2 specs or better
we lost acro
we lost the free aoe for keys that we had with talents now we need to talents into it
fathom bramble
well you can't get the records from prog, but it was good on prog before everyone got geared up and figured out how to play sub
vivid vessel
tww was the worse iteration of that
you litteralyt needed to remove like 20% st to go aoe
sub just get all aoe for free
narrow pasture
I'll come back and try asking again when the crying circle is over
now is not the time for the 74k -> 75k dps optimization when the mm hunter is sustaining 200k 
cinder relic
idk you tell me how it works it was a genuine question.
my idea now is state of ...
Genuinely there is nothing to do lol
Class sucks, is what it is
leaden folio
outlaw will be "okay" when you can play it with a dagger because craft a non-dagger suck for the prog
cinder relic
Same was any time any other spec sucks, theres nothing they can do either
random stirrup
outlaw weapon issue is genuinely the biggest problem
stiff vector
it was pretty good early on ye, but that was literally the only fight outlaw wasnt objectively dogshit on in Manaforge. And it was unplayable on last 2. And still didnt see a single ounce of tuning the entire tier. Like there is just no excuse for that.
cinder relic
Hope for the best
lucid sparrow
@cinder relic are u writing a wowhead article or what was that talk earlier about
random stirrup
one of 2 biggest
slim hare
why is resignation the only thing you guys do
cinder relic
<@96834520417828864> are u writing a wowhead article or what was that talk earli...
I am not writing a wowhead article saying "rogue sucks"
Because there is nothing else u can do?
What do u want us to do, protest?
slim hare
i dont get it surely there is a way to get the point accross withtout saying rogue sucks
leaden folio
I already reroll and let the class die
vivid vessel
@fathom bramble i think im prio on salahadar weapon
slim hare
"rogue has issue here is my take after talking about a lot of other player of the specs" ?
vivid vessel
thoughts
slim hare
lucky zac
random stirrup
<@101843879791177728> i think im prio on salahadar weapon
slim hare
What do u want us to do, protest?
imo closing discord is exactly that x)
vivid vessel
and drake
cinder relic
imo closing discord is exactly that x)
that didn't do anything for paladins
lucid sparrow
imo closing discord is exactly that x)
vivid vessel
reroll
fluid iron
The class just sucks, there is nothing else to do
fairly sure they also are aware of what the people in RH think about rogue in this patch
like they do lurk in class discords
vivid vessel
you say that cause realz lurk in sub channel
lucid sparrow
imma keep snorting that one
mighty pivot
ok but maybe the outlaw dev is here too. maybe it's popo who knows
slim hare
like they do lurk in class discords
ok but then why not make a ping about the design pain point,most of the people here have issue with ?
fluid iron
and comunicate
last he typed was in outlaw
vivid vessel
ok but maybe the outlaw dev is here too. maybe it's popo who knows
wouldnt surprised
lucid sparrow
if the outlaw dude was here
this little patch on the 31st would have had outlaw i nit
vivid vessel
last he typed was in outlaw
thats not true lol
daring yoke
that didn't do anything for paladins
Tbh when u or solo wrote an article on wowhead about fixing BF bug it worked. They fixed it immediately. Maybe an article would help lol
mighty pivot
zac is right
fluid iron
this little patch on the 31st would have had outlaw i nit
not what the discord is for, but thats what the forums are for
mighty pivot
only all the time
fluid iron
last time i was wrong ?
when you thought that outlaw would have a raid tier
leaden folio
im pretty sure outlaw will be mentionned on the patch in 4 day
mighty pivot
remember when you put ketchup on your pasta?
vivid vessel
when you thought that outlaw would have a raid tier
was a long time ago tbf
vivid vessel
i have accepted i would never play outlaw in raid
fluid iron
when he boiled pasta in a microwave
vivid vessel
i think s1 tww
slim hare
when you thought that outlaw would have a raid tier
stop messing around he told us he accepted it already
slim hare
when he boiled pasta in a microwave
thats fine wdym
fluid iron
it is not
vivid vessel
i mean
i understand not being fine with steak in microwave
but pasta is litteraly watever
mighty pivot
bro what
fluid iron
tru that happened too
vivid vessel
the water cook the pasta all the same
fluid iron
i had forgot
mighty pivot
naaaah he trolling
cinder relic
Tbh when u or solo wrote an article on wowhead about fixing BF bug it worked. Th...
a wowhead article fixed a bug, outlaw being undertuned isn't a bug
Me writing an article about how "Rogue is undertuned" isn't going to get rogue buffed
vivid vessel
pasta in microwave is legit the exact same thing bro
dense bolt
but pasta is litteraly watever
dont u do a wierd taco and enjoy it
cinder relic
thats just not how things work
vivid vessel
pasta get cooked
lucid sparrow
pasta
vivid vessel
profit ?
slim hare
Me writing an article about how "Rogue is undertuned" isn't going to get rogue b...
again dont do an article about numbers
vivid vessel
how is it any differnt than your other way of boiling water
slim hare
do an article about design
vivid vessel
plenty of ways to boil water
slim hare
surely they know numbers are not up to par
tired rune
Any visibility would help imo
slim hare
but design too and idea could help them
old gull
Decline simulator sure is fun
mighty pivot
guys an article wouldn't even give wowhead clicks. all rogue articles get like 20 comments
wicked ether
maybe they have other problems, like that the raid content was cleared this early, not a good look after these huge changes to WA/Addons, so they just buff the outlier that are really struggling, if you look at Rogue Damage of the Last Day on Warcraftlogs its nothing to boast about but ok.
leaden folio
shit article about parse geting the view for sure
slim hare
pretty sure it would be linked everywhere on this discord atp
cinder relic
This shit is the exact reason I didn't even want to make that bug wowhead article in the first place
slim hare
😂
cinder relic
Because now I'm getting badgered to make articles because "rogue is bad" and that me making an article will fix it
slim hare
i mean people here think you have an impact
vivid vessel
ty for your services guy
slim hare
maybe you don't
random stirrup
I am not writing a wowhead article saying "rogue sucks"
I do think in the wake of current rwf affairs that an atro article might do something
wicked ether
he is THE guy
leaden folio
thx you for fixing a bug for 2 xpac guy
random stirrup
now if you think that is worthy idk
kindred oar
People need to understand that nothing will get fixed until blizzard feels otherwise
cinder relic
slim hare
but you services did work last time and we thanks you
kindred oar
It’s working as intended
mighty pivot
ty guy
vivid vessel
what a goat
fluid iron
what people dont know is that im the rogue dev and i just hate rogue so ill let it stay bad
lucid sparrow
when did rogue get atro poison
remote pecan
speaking of poisons, permanent when?
wicked ether
Rogue just need an own Kalamazi that is always complaining.
slim hare
zac was him
mighty pivot
wicked ether
Sure Warlock has 2 Speccs in the Top 5 atm, BUT it could be 3, wtf blizzard.
mighty pivot
mm gets minor reworks every patch btw
shadow trellis
lucid sparrow
to blizzard assa and outlaw are roleplay specs, sub is for pvp, nothing else
time to reroll and move on people
gg
kind kite
static crescent
pretty sure they have to be afraid of scaling or something
kind kite
we are just stronk we dont need buff
vivid vessel
pretty sure they have to be afraid of scaling or something
outlaw scaling ye
hc week is where outlaw is the best in a season
mighty pivot
even if that was the case, they can roll buffs back
leaden folio
the only outlaw scalling it the legendaryitem midpatch who have a dmg proc that scale with versa
lmao
mellow thicket
Is negative damage possible?
static crescent
we are playing arcane mage outlaw in our m+ grp, our tank asked today after few runs with pug dps (frost mage, demo lock etc.)
vivid vessel
the only outlaw scalling it the legendaryitem midpatch who have a dmg proc that ...
these thigns are still better for others because they have stats procs and usually they are better than damage procs
real btw
static crescent
"guys are we getting carried?"
vivid vessel
every time
kind kite
i think next skill/talent they are gonna remove is BtE bcs is too strong
mellow thicket
If a class can’t perform well in raid, maybe let it shine in mythic plus? So it meets some niche in the PVE world
faint pendant
obligatory
mighty pivot
bring back wax whistle blizzard 
static crescent
but yeah idk, they see the numbers idk why they literally cant even do the cringe 4% more or some shit
edgy canyon
Is there a good place to get senseiresourcebar imports? I tried the one from Luxthos' site and it isn't working for me :c
leaden folio
they are busy about not getting the last raid of this tier getting crush on 1 night
mellow thicket
obligatory
That’s crazy
static crescent
I guess that can be considered a approach too that everything is so easy doesnt matter what you play
mellow thicket
Maybe there’s a C team dev group now.
mellow thicket
im wonder when outlaw gonna be played in MDI
BFA?
faint pendant
That’s crazy
I mean that's how they balanced WoW since forever. they've always balanced around "fotms"
mighty pivot
the actual outlaw goat wox will play it in mdi
vivid vessel
the actual outlaw goat wox will play it in mdi
He was streaming sub keys yesterday
mystic berry
Only after mid season now
daring yoke
Because now I'm getting badgered to make articles because "rogue is bad" and tha...
Tbh its worth a try. If it doesnt work u got nothing to lose.
mellow thicket
Y’all think a rogue rework is on the way? Outside of a blind aoe cc
placid ocean
Tbh its worth a try. If it doesnt work u got nothing to lose.
Why don't you write the article?
mellow thicket
Mid season
placid ocean
Stop badgering the poor man
narrow pasture
next expansion*
mystic berry
Im being optimistic
mellow thicket
Gonna call it Zaclaw rogue or Woxtox
gaunt rover
make a wowhead article explaining why rogue's raid buff sucks ass in half the fights
kind kite
they should just rework outlaw and make him healer, he will throwing bandages at ppl
mystic berry
they should just rework outlaw and make him healer, he will throwing bandages at...
honestly wouldnt complain to get out of the dps hamster wheel
As long as gameplay is fun
and not subfied
daring yoke
Why don't you write the article?
Bruh im a nobody. The person who writes it matters
cinder relic
make a wowhead article explaining why rogue's raid buff sucks ass in half the fi...
It doesnt though
Its just that rogue is undertuned
gaunt rover
oh, I was under the impression it didnt work on environmental dmg
fathom bramble
virtually all damagee isn't environment
like 93-98% of damage
depending on the tier
placid ocean
virtually all damagee isn't environment
I get environmental damage from just being in this chat
mellow thicket
I’m curious to know what the invisible or blizzard tool they use to decide these metrics of buffs/ nerfs . What is the standard?
slim hare
drugs
narrow pasture
vibes
slim hare
tons of it
mellow thicket
Oh they use roll the bones. Ok
cinder relic
Atro usually doesnt work on 1 fight, every other tier
mellow thicket
lucid sparrow
I’m curious to know what the invisible or blizzard tool they use to decide these...
the roll the bones ability was inspired by the way they roll the dice for outlaw balancing, except they throw the dice out the window
mellow thicket
Actually cracking up
faint pendant
I’m curious to know what the invisible or blizzard tool they use to decide these...
they push specs to be strong. like augvoker in dragonflight. or reworked ret paladin in dragonflight. or reworked unholy dk in midnight. or devo dh in midnight
faint pendant
like augvoker was absolutely disgusting
they didn't do anything because they wanted it to be that strong
lucid sparrow
https://tenor.com/view/baldur%27s-gate-3-critical-fail-critical-failure-%C3%A9ch...
every side is a critical failure except for one
thats blizzard for u
kind kite
good im not paying them
mellow thicket
lol but for real how did MM not take a single nerf after the RWF performance.
winged zinc
if I have questions for why I am doing absolutely shit dmg and got some logs do I post them here or is there another place?
faint pendant
type !log in the spec channel
mellow thicket
I think your outlier is showing
winged zinc
!log
near parcel
!ui
ornate heathBOT
Resources:
ArcUI / BetterCDM - common suites for buff/cd customization
WangBar - displays CPs/energy, customize colors per point, faster than Sensei
MSUF - recommendation for unit frames
Platynator - recommendation for nameplates (Jundies Profile)
Misc:
Clickable Raid Buffs - for poisons
WilduTools - random QoL like melee range indicator, track cursor
Mute Cold Blood sound - if we ever go back to this talent
verbal stag
does anyone know if there's any good pov vids of outlaw in raid or mythics preferably where the person talks about what they're doing etc over it
my friend is learning and i'm not the best teacher
but i've always found stuff like that has helped me in the past
critcake does good ones for warrior from time to time
wintry phoenix
critcake does good ones for warrior from time to time
Convince critcake to play rogue
slender creek
Rogue do low damage (ローグの攻撃はゴミ). same parse as arms war (パース赤、戦士と同じ). Bring shame to guild (ギルドの恥). M+ instant decline. (招待拒否). I stand in city like NPC.
verbal stag
Fair enough, I asked him to post some logs here at some point to see what he can improve on
mellow thicket
Rogue do low damage (ローグの攻撃はゴミ). same parse as arms war (パース赤、戦士と同じ). Bring sha...
Uh oh
verbal stag
That’s basically how I learned to play outlaw
I know some stuff has changed in midnight tho for how they play
verbal stag
I don’t think they do vanish and between the eyes spam anymore
Which is what I knew how to play
gaunt phoenix
your rotation is kind of the filler rotation of tww
with kir and prep sometimes
but it's really just press your cooldowns, know the builder spender rules
and have a good ui
keen belfry
just got back from target, did they update the tunign notes?
gaunt phoenix
So you see when you are losing shit
mellow thicket
Whoever wrote / and the outlaw FAQ, is a good resource
gaunt phoenix
whoever wrote the faq is very smart and handsome
keen belfry
yeah i wrote it
mellow thicket
Hahaha
keen belfry
man no cap a 5 minute video in every faq explaining your rotation done over a 3 minute vod would be giga tech for learning
mellow thicket
You should do it solo!
verbal stag
Gotta do it for the baby outlaw rogue I’m raising
mellow thicket
Or dub over Zac’s content lol
tropic zephyr
verbal stag
@gaunt phoenix haha I just looked back at my log from back then and it was actually you that helped me
storm thicket
what are all the uncapped crest things for heroic. i have the ? ?? and a nightmare hutn done for a total of 80 i know i need to do cracked keystone for another 2
verbal stag
u a real one
mellow thicket
u a real one
He’s one of the core brains behind outlaw
mellow thicket
Because Arcane, frost and ele
keen belfry
i wonder what data they have,the post says explicity m+
keen belfry
Because Arcane, frost and ele
arcane aint good