i was told now that outlaw doesnt have uuh anymore we could be good on bosses like razageth again 
#outlaw
vivid vessel
fathom bramble
And ar needs 2 charges
vivid vessel
gaunt phoenix
I dont remember lok stream since bfa
gaunt phoenix
bfa i was like 19 now im oldge
fiery timber
bfa i was like 19 now im oldge
Ye same here
next wedge
im 23 🙂
dapper badge
Yeah that was bfa
You had no viewers and we both followed each other one night. I guess you dont remember.
dapper badge
All good
static crescent
bet there will be more notes later, outlaw buffs, still believe
dapper badge
bfa i was like 19 now im oldge
BFA i was 28 or so... 
placid hollow
Lads is it just me or is outlaw BtE procs really janky? I feel like when gravedigger goes off it takes ages to register the CP and Im already spending a SS wasting 45 energy.
vivid vessel
BFA i was 28 or so... <:HOLY:1250893440183570533>
wtf
are you like
70 now ?
thats oldge af
dapper badge
Feels like it
vivid vessel
Lads is it just me or is outlaw BtE procs really janky? I feel like when gravedi...
apex is coded differently than ace
because
(ia coded it)
so its coded so that the proc is actually consumed when the projectile lands
rather than when you press the finisher like ace is
the projectile has a travel time
:D
placid hollow
thats rotten
vivid vessel
more noticeable on bigger hitboxes
placid hollow
I hate it
vivid vessel
i know right
placid hollow
its slowing me down big time
vivid vessel
makes you wonder why they had to recode something differently for something that was already in the game
:D
i will not comment
wintry solar
It's a precursor to being a midrange spec
placid hollow
yeah thanks for the explination man appreicate it
wintry solar
Forumites win again
gaunt phoenix
Why is bte even a projectile
vivid vessel
Why is bte even a projectile
for gravedigger :D
gaunt phoenix
Xd
placid hollow
im wasting eneregy here because some prick wanted to do his job faster with AI
what a time to be alive
vivid vessel
i will never understand why these devs waste time on things like that sometimes
just for it to be worse
than if they did nothing
remmeber tier set in df
was it s2
the fucking
rolling buff
placid hollow
hahah
vivid vessel
that was consumed by bte
like
most over enginered thing of all time
why would you code all that
no one cares
legitimaly no one cares you did all that work
and its worse than if you didnt do it
do they have to hit a quota
placid hollow
looooool
prisma lantern
Maybe they have a corporate mandate to implement AI.
placid hollow
Honestly thats put me right off playing outlaw, shame
cinder relic
does this not only happen on the 2nd boss
vivid vessel
its more noticeable on 2nd boss
it happens if you press bte at range
and it always happens
cinder relic
but if u press BTE at range, u arent going to munch the CP because of using SS
vivid vessel
just on 2nd boss its so slow your gcd is legit ready before bte reset
placid hollow
yeah was fighting the second boss there when it was really apparante
vivid vessel
but if u press BTE at range, u arent going to munch the CP because of using SS
could press ps or whateve
i mean have you played outlaw yet or
its quite glaring
and annoying
not only on 2nd boss
cinder relic
Ive played it literally all expansion except for yesterday on alleria
zinc briar
i was thinking about change to subt
cinder relic
the only time Ive noticed it, is on the 2nd boss
zinc briar
but now im thinking about delete rogue
pfff
with 99 parse and everyone of my guild does more dmg than me
placid hollow
I feel like its supposed to be playing this very fast and reactive class and were getting screwed by travel time of a BtE
next wedge
yea it felt weird on vorasius
vivid vessel
the only time Ive noticed it, is on the 2nd boss
probbably because you track the buff
so you dont react to it
i have been playing all time without tracking the buff and its just cancer
cinder relic
cinder relic
Who is defending it
vivid vessel
you dont need to track the buff if it wasnt terribly designed and bugged lol
you could just react to it
like ace
its whatever lol
cinder relic
bugs and quirks = bad
but I can just say from my exp I haven't really noticed it, other than the 1 boss
vivid vessel
yes you trck the buff so you dont react to it
wintry phoenix
You can't forget what you never planned to do
hollow temple
how much haste do we need?
cinder relic
21ish
dire rampart
all of it
hollow temple
FB 21?
gaunt phoenix
need 20%, then it continues to be "good" until 25% then it sucks
kind otter
!up
ornate heathBOT
karmic stag
Haste we need vs haste we want
frail veldt
you dont need to track the buff if it wasnt terribly designed and bugged lol
its so annoying
I thought I was lagging super hard on that boss lol
cinder relic
we flask haste until we hit that yea?
if needed yeah
fathom bramble
I just thought the openworld was crazy laggy for the first week
vivid vessel
same lol
fathom holly
what are we talking about guys
gaunt phoenix
what are we talking about guys
Gravedigger
The reset
Has a travel time
So it's weirdly delayed, more on some bosses
static crescent
actually thinking about it, balance notes are kinda huge for us
we will be invited as dps over bears now
brave lagoon
I'm playing on 2nd raid boss right now and I get what you guys mean
zinc briar
seems like they are going to let rogue die
brave lagoon
bte resets as late as the next global wtf
indigo token
god I miss ace up your sleeve
wintry solar
It's right there wdym
static crescent
they are still posting tuning to dungeons
still hope right
i wonder at what time they get off from work
indigo token
It's right there wdym
the old ace man
wintry solar
Like
placid hollow
bte resets as late as the next global wtf
Genuinely making not want to play it
wintry solar
BFA old?
indigo token
TWW
left imp
damn
wintry solar
I don't think they want outlaw to chain btes without builders anymore forever
thorn parrot
Idk I’m having fun shooting gun and swishing sword around
mighty pivot
next reset
wintry solar
Trust
mighty pivot
already announced
left imp
lets goo
left imp
next reset
when tho
next wedge
next reset
fallen quail
4% big aura
junior glacier
worth to use hero crests to upgrade main hand to 272? or should i wait
fiery timber
Wait
pearl topaz
4% will help us overcome the way we are being 2x'd
hollow bloom
They will forget us like usual 
cinder relic
should we reroll to hunter?
reroll so u can be happier in life
cinder relic
heard outlaw sucks
Not just outlaw
All 3 rogue specs are kinda unplayable a t m
Bad tuning and really bad raid
wintry solar
You know, Its funny that if you play any other class, the raid is enjoyable I find.
fallen quail
Surely with three dps specs, ooooooone has to be decently tuned
slim hare
not anymore !
cinder relic
Surely with three dps specs, ooooooone has to be decently tuned
rn nope
wintry solar
Yeah just do what ion says and reroll to the better spec
narrow pasture
surely
cinder relic
Closest is Sub/sin but like
Neither are good
This raid is so caster heavy
and then also rogue is undertuned
Its real bad
hollow bloom
Do we have a legit rogue dev or is that just wishful thinking?
left imp
top 10 sad moments
narrow pasture
as far as we know, no dedicated rogue dev
wintry solar
top 10 sad moments
Wher were u wen rog kill?
hollow bloom
So sad
left imp
wym
left imp
Wher were u wen rog kill?
still in school probably
fallen quail
M+ starts tomorrow. No time to reroll. Embrace the suck
narrow pasture
hes being sarcastic
cinder relic
I think this is the worst rogue on the whole has been in years
narrow pasture
right? right???
cinder relic
Like worst case usually is like
keen belfry
I don’t think so
cinder relic
Play sin/sub, be mid
But like, its a mix of a ranged raid
with rogue being undertuned
So like literally wcyd
wintry solar
Made me laugh
keen belfry
Banger
fallen quail
Nice job guy, you just became a meme
hollow bloom
Announcement of rogue rework incoming 
narrow pasture
nahhh
keen belfry
I can’t believe I’m going into m+ season on a shit class with a sinus infection
fallen quail
That’s when you know youre cooked.
fallen quail
When rwf wont even bring you
narrow pasture
this tier got hard healing checks
normal forge
getting declined from m0, feels good
cinder relic
When rwf wont even bring you
Uh they probs will
atro is still solid but like
ITs rough
normal forge
keen belfry
fallen quail
Start your own group and see how many people leave after joining
normal forge
lol
fierce trout
!addons
copper radish
Jokes on you outlaw apparently doesn’t even have one 
fierce trout
!WA
ornate heathBOT
Resources:
ArcUI / BetterCDM - common suites for buff/cd customization
WangBar - displays CPs/energy, customize colors per point, faster than Sensei
MSUF - recommendation for unit frames
Platynator - recommendation for nameplates (Jundies Profile)
Misc:
Clickable Raid Buffs - for poisons
WilduTools - random QoL like melee range indicator, track cursor
Mute Cold Blood sound - if we ever go back to this talent
copper radish
Guys it’s so over for the season pack it in. Guy tweeted how shit rogue is 😭
fathom bramble
it might've been over as soon as we saw how soft blizz was being on tuning
refusing to make necessary upwards adjustments of terrible specs due to rwf will always be a massive mistake
edgy owl
what are you talking about guys? we got a 4% buff 🤡
wintry solar
Jokes on you outlaw apparently doesn’t even have one <:OMEGAKEKW:829051106361344...
Security took mine at Voodoo fest 2016
copper radish
what are you talking about guys? we got a 4% buff 🤡
My Devourer doing more dps than outlaw already and got 10% st buff
narrow pasture
new spec prio was expected
fathom bramble
true
copper radish
“Here’s a 4% nerf” into a 10% buff 😂
hollow bloom
MoP combat rogue plays better than retail rogue…
static crescent
my alts an devourer (i guess main now) its complete ass to play vs. outlaw
and its new tech
fathom bramble
combo points delays built into the generator design is highly suspect
and a very strange choice
narrow pasture
ace chaining without a builder would go hard
fierce trout
any audio cue addons for cooldowns yet?
junior thicket
I moved on to Assassination. Been a Combat since Vanilla, but finally my cup runeth over, bros
fierce trout
I miss the OG RtB WA that would yell at me to RtB or hit BF
junior thicket
Just can't stomach RTB anymore
cinder relic
definitely plays well aside a couple hiccups
I think all the specs are super fun rn
static crescent
in m+specc my outlaw and devourer sim the same dps patchwerk which is suprising
static crescent
pitty the devourer pulls off 300k into an aoe pack
fierce trout
What are yall averaging in Mythic 0s? DPS wise?
fallen quail
Those are rookie numbers
static crescent
Its pointless to even look at m0 numbers tbh, so dependant
junior thicket
Its unreal how undertuned rogue is
I look at Retadins rolling their face on the keyboard and deal 500k under a second, and I'm like... What crimes are we paying for to not have the same synergy
fierce trout
Just trying to get a feel where im at
static crescent
tank kills them while walking to the next pack
fathom bramble
I mean in the past this was kind of acceptable since our overall was still good
fierce trout
I haven't seen anyone hit 500k O.O
fallen quail
Dw we’ll catch up on the st boss fights
static crescent
current situation is often an advantage to us, as cd based blasters cant get setup
fathom bramble
but with low target cleave and BF being where it is
we don't seem to have anything to make up for it
fierce trout
I hit 100k and in a few dungeons and was topping meters
static crescent
I can guarantee ele shamans will do 200x our damage in big pulls
That would be fine ofc, if...
fierce trout
@cinder relic @gaunt phoenix @vivid vessel Any good audio cue addons yet? I heard tale DBM is working for some things and I think I saw a cooldown manager addon you could assign audio bits to
neon rapids
outlaw rework when?
neon rapids
☠️
neon rapids
idk im getting more and more depressed when i enter the game
they massacered our boy
we will see in m+ how it goes
wintry solar
I'd play MoP if combo points weren't tied to the target
fathom bramble
we will see in m+ how it goes
we kind of saw how it was going on the beta
hollow bloom
I would like gouge, Mark for death, and a bleed back for outlaw.
neon rapids
i wanted to not see it and hoped it will be okay 🤡
fathom bramble
I'll let you maintain hope then
neon rapids
all hope is lost now
fathom bramble
I think the most likely positive result is that they realize BF tuning is cooked and buff it later in the tier
wintry solar
You can't lose hope when seas are a bit rough
wintry solar
I don't expect anything meaningful until RWF is over
That's when real tuning happens anyway
fathom bramble
as usual
normal forge
MoP combat rogue plays better than retail rogue…
i used to top dps being combat on mop and wod, i miss these days
neon rapids
at least we had acrobatic strkes back than lol
left imp
i have one question
wintry solar
But they totally increased baseline melee range since they added it
normal forge
have u guys seen how WW monks are hitting hard?
left imp
is rogue still clunky to play (energy shit) in high lvls im lvl 51 and it feels weird and not smooth
fathom bramble
outlaw requires a lot of haste and high level talents to actually feel comfortable
haste levels you can't realistically reach while leveling
keen belfry
damn.......
fathom bramble
we don't know really
I assume it is unfinished and was planned to be reworked as part of deleting vanish from the spec
but they ran out of time
hollow bloom
Its like garnish or something…extra flavour
smoky lotus
our intern hasnt gotten around to reworking our tree properly yet
fathom bramble
nerfing a talent they don't have time to rework properly isn't the most unusual thing ever
neon rapids
did our rogue dev quit or what happened btw
fathom bramble
so we just get to have a dead talent until they rework it imo
fathom bramble
did our rogue dev quit or what happened btw
I don't think we know who is working on rogue currently or if it is still realz
he hasn't poked into the discord for some time, but that is equally explainable by some peoples behavior as it is by him moving to another position
neon rapids
welp, we are doomed
i wish i can just pick up smth else to play, nothing scratches that itch as outlaw
and i tried
so i guess we will get trough it
indigo token
at what point does playing the red-headed stepchild of a class get easier
left imp
so i guess we will get trough it
still have time to switch lol
worthy surge
so much qq over outlaw when our class in general sucks its not really an outlaw problem
indigo token
its cause sin and sub are still more valued than outlaw
so its the worst of 3 evils
fathom bramble
you could see it as no matter how bad sub is, outlaw is somehow still worse
worthy surge
by a margin that doesnt impact 99% of players
like if youre impacted by the difference in outlaw and sub dps youre a pro and if youre a pro youre probably not on rogue
fathom bramble
I think you are underestimating the difference that outlaw and sub will have post-tier/trinkets
worthy surge
it is annoying given how much "harder" outlaw is to play that sub is better
keen belfry
like if youre impacted by the difference in outlaw and sub dps youre a pro and i...
this is pretty fried
indigo token
serene urchin
I think you are underestimating the difference that outlaw and sub will have pos...
5% dmg on 4 piece
wrap it up
indigo token
5% dmg on 4 piece <:HOLY:1250893440183570533>
for outlaw?
keen belfry
what meta M+ player is going to play a rogue
it depends if its meta or not
it wont be
worthy surge
right it wont be
keen belfry
but ur take was fried as shit
keen belfry
so leave
worthy surge
I dont have to I can express my opinion
keen belfry
agree
i can express it smells like hsit
ur take smells like fart
everyone who says what u said is usually shit at the game
noah fence tho
keen belfry
!ban fartgrimgrin
gaunt phoenix
Are we fighting
wintry solar
Everyone is shit takes but me
keen belfry
Are we fighting
hold me back solo hold me back!
gaunt phoenix
Awang is poposhit i agree
wintry solar
Awang I wouldn't stand for that
keen belfry
did fartgrin make wangbar?
wintry solar
Personally
worthy surge
im just more upset about where rogues at in general than I am about outlaw, sure itd be nice if outlaw was better but itd just be nice if rogue was good
ashen void
wait they buffed mortal strike and execute
fathom bramble
it probably already did
ashen void
damn bro...
keen belfry
i geuinely think we will go down in wcl graphs after our 4% buff
adds will die quicker, etc
fathom bramble
didn't every spec behind rogue(and some of the ones ahead) get buffed by the same or more ?
keen belfry
yes
fierce trout
Saptors claw good or poop?
wintry solar
You call?
fathom bramble
Saptors claw good or poop?
it's okay, but not great
can be quite good if your haste is quite low
keen belfry
i miss press ps at 1 combo point
fierce trout
says +372 🤡
worthy surge
but yeah it does feel doomish right now
wintry solar
Some are perpetually like that but it's gloomy for everyone atm
dull geyser
is the crucible trinket from renown sim bait?
fathom bramble
is the crucible trinket from renown sim bait?
it is good, but you must do the quests to make it stronger
check pins
frail veldt
what meta M+ player is going to play a rogue
There's people who are bad enough to need to meta slave and then there's giga Chad outlaw only mains
Nothing in between
wintry solar
Crazy how that's not even an exaggeration
frail veldt
Trukes only
wintry solar
Smh
keen belfry
i usually stop my m+ if outlaw is tww s3 bad
wintry solar
Newbie amirite
frail veldt
i usually stop my m+ if outlaw is tww s3 bad
I just quit m+ yeah
wintry solar
If outlaw is bad I just don't pve
pearl topaz
as if not just suffer as your favorite spec is terrible
I just play with my friends and go "yeah sorry, I know its shit" lmao
im still coasting off the fumes of Shadowlands
where things felt so great
keen belfry
i was very ahead of io week likle 6 or something, but then outlaw became an actual hindrance in pug groups and i said meh we can stop puhsing for the season
wintry solar
Idr what season it was but I got super drunk and ran keys with an assa friend
It was probably the most fun I had in tww
keen belfry
DF s2/3 few of us just did hammered alt keys
wintry solar
Bodied him in meters too
wintry solar
(God tier rng but I call it skill)
keen belfry
peak wow cuh
wintry solar
I should be an alcoholic and do keys like that
keen belfry
its fun
u shuld raid drunk
i raid buzzed often
raid leading playing outlaw while buzzed is tough
wintry solar
I usually raid lead but I put the mantle down this season
keen belfry
must be nice
wintry solar
Take a wild guess why
keen belfry
hmm
wintry solar
I'm also GM so they can suck my weewee
keen belfry
they think u suck too much
me and popo are the same
outlaw raid leading gms
im not a redneck tho
wintry solar
It happens
wintry solar
they think u suck too much
Right now they think so. I'm worried soon they'll figure out I actually do suck
keen belfry
dont let ehm find out
worthy surge
switch to sub theyll never find out
wintry solar
Literally impossible, Ive been going on rants about Sub for years
keen belfry
my guild reminds me of grim they hate my whining about the spec
worthy surge
fun in pvp I dont really wanna play it in pve
keen belfry
my twin brother btw
fathom bramble
I'm sure being OP all the time is fun
go check what warlocks 'worst' spec is doing
wintry solar
My shoulders are already tense
dull geyser
are the points that you should spend for the renown trinket in the pins too? the wording kinda conufsed me
fathom bramble
there is an image of the tree with the damage increasing points spent
worthy surge
complaining once in a while is fair but its just crazy when its all the time man... I want Outlaw buffs too but its gotta start with rogue buffs then we can qq about Outlaw together
fathom bramble
yeah it sucks that that is how it is rn
and while I try to temper my complaining it sucks that there is so often so much to complain about
some things people complain about on law have been consistent issues for years and I think it ends up just being a permanent pain point that has people complaining forever
worthy surge
Yeah, but at the same time its like if people have been complaining for years and they havent done anything about it are they gunna start now? lol
fathom bramble
also it is the outlaw channel after all
I seriously doubt people are sitting in the sin/sub channels complaining about how bad outlaw is
worthy surge
true it is the outlaw channel
but itd be nice in the years ive been in this discord if I looked at the outlaw channel
and it wasnt just doom
fathom bramble
Yeah, but at the same time its like if people have been complaining for years an...
unfortunately to take this approach would be to basically decide feedback/discussion/complaining no longer matters
and maybe it doesn't maybe it's just venting in the end
worthy surge
venting is fair but at what point do you give up you know
pearl topaz
I get ya mate, I prefer positive vibes but right now I think its justified because it feels like it might not take much to boost us to at least middling dps
worthy surge
if it feels like youve been downtroden for so long
fathom bramble
I usually give up at some point every tier around the time prog ends and just play another game
but I like to talk about the game I'm playing when I am playing it
pearl topaz
Never stop complaining in life, great way to get people to just wait out your patience
fathom bramble
so if the only reasonable topic is how bad things are then that;s how it goes
worthy surge
things are bad that is fair
keen belfry
bro thinks we should be thankful and complacent with the state of outlaw rn
worthy surge
not at all
wintry solar
fathom bramble
if it was good times I would be talking about how good we are
fathom bramble
the complaining will cease when the bad times end
wintry solar
I complained for years about uhuh and I got what I wanted so it obviously works
keen belfry
we dont know so we will continue to call out the bad!
fathom bramble
outlaw has had periods of incredibly low playrate without getting any of those things
fathom bramble
yes
serene urchin
arent we one of the least played classes in the game
least played spec in one of the least played class
fathom bramble
also hypothetically if quitting outlaw got it reworked or gutted that would be a negative outcome to most law players
serene urchin
we r a loud minority
worthy surge
also hypothetically if quitting outlaw got it reworked or gutted that would be a...
depends on what itd become but right now it seems like most of the time most people who play outlaw are unhappy
serene urchin
think its mostly a numbers thing
the flow of outlaw is still relatively the same thing most of us fell inlove with
worthy surge
ya I like outlaw gameplay a lot
shrewd iris
we should do a protest like the ret paladins and monks did
wintry solar
depends on what itd become but right now it seems like most of the time most peo...
I think that's because the DF rework was extremely divisive
And then idk
Kinda set the mood
serene urchin
more stealth vs less stealth crowd
wintry solar
I wouldn't even say that tbh
pearl topaz
protests only work when you have a sizeable population that the devs want to listen to
wintry solar
It's more nuanced imo than stealth vs non stealth
shrewd iris
show up in numbers and march through silvermoon. maybe if a news site writes an article about it blizzard will buff us
pearl topaz
unfortunately years of neglect has left us with no real power at all
keen belfry
unfortunately years of neglect has left us with no real power at all
im here now so we have all the power
me and popo
wintry solar
Just us 2 yeah
serene urchin
with wang on our side what cant we do
fathom bramble
depends on what itd become but right now it seems like most of the time most peo...
that's true I was just making the assumption that any rework would move us further in the direction of "approachability"
specs that are more "approachable" in the way blizz seems to mean it already exist for other players
the main reason to be playing outlaw at all(to me) is specifically because it is not like those specs
and few specs are like that
fewer everytime they rework something
wintry solar
What specs still have active CDR?
fathom bramble
fury
wintry solar
Wow
keen belfry
ye people who loved TWW outlaw are somewhat cursed, because if u want a spec to to get "more" attention it needs a higher player base. butoutlaws playstyle, the kind that tww outlaw players love, is not going to be a playstyle that attracts people
wintry solar
I'm starting to think blizz doesn't like active CDR
keen belfry
they removed it from fire
worthy surge
I think my point with the sub comment and the damage difference being irrelevant is that ur not gunna give up outlaw gameplay for that amount of damage if youre just like in a chill guild with decent players
like sub is not so much more viable than outlaw right now
rogue is just not great period
fathom bramble
"I think you are underestimating the damage increase sub will get from tier/trinkets"
worthy surge
I disagree
keen belfry
haha
worthy surge
maybe I am but yeah as it stands right now I disagree I dont think you being sub will make an actual difference on a clear
fathom bramble
guess we will see
keen belfry
i mean man i just disagree, we just came from a tier where playing outlaw on the last 2 was actively griefing. esp dimmy
comapre dto sub
worthy surge
unless they need you to burst down an add or something I have no idea what the mythic fights look like
keen belfry
im in a very casual guild and on our dimmy kill pull, if i played outlaw, the boss literally wouldnt have died that pull
worthy surge
but if you think being sub makes the difference you may as well completely reroll
wintry solar
In 4 years, active CDR won't exist at all and everything will have multple charges on a shorter cooldown
worthy surge
im talking about this patch
keen belfry
like 3 months ago bro
wintry solar
Mhm
worthy surge
im not talking about TWW
keen belfry
and im saying it can be the same thing, as it happened, 3 months ago
you are completely saying theres no chance its the same way this tier
worthy surge
yeah im saying if youre playing rogue, if your guild is bringing a rogue I dont think youre the deciding factor
on any boss fight
keen belfry
no one spec is haha
ever
that doesnt matter, its still actively griefing at times to make decisions like that
it might not matter in the end
worthy surge
I think that with that line of argumentation
youre griefing by just being a rogue
in your raid
keen belfry
the whole premise of "comaplaining about spec balance when it actuallyy doesnt matter for 99% of the playerbase" is an argument i hate
worthy surge
instead of something else
ornate heathBOT
- Use
Adrenaline Rush to activate 
Loaded Dice. - As Trickster, use
KS to activate 
Disorienting Strikes. - Do NOT use
RTB before the key, you will lose it. - Use
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worthy surge
spec balance matters obviously easier specs that do more damage are more popular, im saying the damage difference between sub and outlaw is not relevant
shrewd iris
is there an addon that's good for tracking the BTE gravedigger thing?
pure folio
Normal cdm can track it I believe
shrewd iris
the number is kinda small though
keen belfry
spec balance matters obviously easier specs that do more damage are more popular...
time will tell
frail veldt
spec balance matters obviously easier specs that do more damage are more popular...
The thing is you can't have that mentality even as an individual
If you apply that logic to an add or mechanic
"it won't be an issue if only I ignore it"
Like technically true but if many people have that mentality then it's a problem
Same is true if people were playing bad specs for their class
worthy surge
the logical conclusion to your argument is you should reroll
And not play rogue at all
wintry solar
"it won't be an issue if only I ignore it"
The bystander effect kills so many people every year
worthy surge
your argument also doesnt make sense
worthy surge
no ones telling anyone to ignore anything
im just saying given the current numbers in my opinion youre not making a difference in any significant way by playing sub over outlaw
im not telling you to ignore information
and if you actually cared
you should reroll off of rogue entirely
runic gulch
Probably will be a noticeable difference in a week or so
Between sub and outlaw
Once people start getting 4 set
cinder relic
Most of the top logs right now have 4 piece
idt the jump is going to as dramatic as you might assume
worthy surge
ya idk these people are wild
runic gulch
sub has the highest gain out of any dps spec from 4 set from what I could tell from sims so idk
cinder relic
sub has the highest gain out of any dps spec from 4 set from what I could tell f...
Yes, but the top logs right now, HAVE that 4 piece already
Its not like next week the top logs are gaining ANOTHER 14% ontop of the 14% they have from tier already
cinder relic
do the graphs only take from the top logs
Depends on how much u section it
U can look at individual parses, and not the graph
worthy surge
the only valid argument to be made is that sub is much easier to play than outlaw and id even argue that if practically outlaw did 5% more damage on average than sub people would still play sub over outlaw because its so much easier
but if you like playing outlaw I dont believe theres a meaningful difference unless theres a specific mechanic in mythic where sub is amazing with its burst damage
to play sub over outlaw
keen belfry
adds are also going to die much quicker every week and outlaw will "look weaker" as per usual
runic gulch
Yes, but the top logs right now, HAVE that 4 piece already
Yeah I get you, saw what you said after I typed it
worthy surge
ok
olive star
guy 🤝 zac dooming
worthy surge
whatever helps you sleep at night
cinder relic
guy 🤝 zac dooming
Hey man
I try to be realistic every tier
I think this is genuinely the worst rogue has ever been in a raid
worthy surge
Rogue definitely sucks and needs a buff
olive star
what about sark tier
cinder relic
what about sark tier
True
cold geyser
Compared to last tier?
cinder relic
But like, it's been a minute
olive star
let me go find the log
cinder relic
Rogue was broken last tier
It just wasn't outlaw
Sub was like, a top 5 DPS on both saladar and dimensius prog
cinder relic
LOLOLOL
JEEEEZ
I felt like that was mostly like, ofc mid af tuning, but then a haste buff when sin was mega unplayable
Feels like rn is both bad tuning and every fight being super caster heavy
Like both every caster feels mega overtuned, and also these fights feel super good for them
cold geyser
It's more the casters don't have to move a whole lot
junior folio
Elie seems to be suffering though
keen belfry
It's more the casters don't have to move a whole lot
theres a littl emore to it than that
wide coral
fights do feel so bad right now
cold geyser
I mean, maybe it's my tanks, but I feel like I'm spending a lot of time chasing stuff around
wide coral
any specs that dont have some sort of midrange damage option is a struggle
just got out of heroic chimera and its so annoying running to adds back to boss and back to adds everytime
even with hook
cold geyser
Yep, stuff like that
junior folio
How do you guys swap to the balls on dragons? It's so hard to dispatch them in the middle when I tab and idk if I'm close or not, Im legit just swapping to them to cast blade flurry and rush with bte and pistol if I can build and go back to dragons at that point because everything disappears or is low as hell
keen belfry
just target boss and try and bf cleave
cold geyser
^^
junior folio
Do you think it reaches the mid?
wide coral
I think this is genuinely the worst rogue has ever been in a raid
honestly thinking about swapping classes for the first time
cold geyser
Though, if your tanks are pretty spread you might just be SoL
keen belfry
what alt shold i play popo
wintry solar
Unholy
junior folio
Idk I hate this tier, raid is giga boring and fights lame as heck
cold geyser
It's the "get used to not having addons" tier. They said it would be easier
frail veldt
im just saying given the current numbers in my opinion youre not making a differ...
I was mostly saying we dont know yet if it will
when mythic prog is legit happening and we know where the hard parts are
and what fight strats need what type of damage
or if certain burst is really important
then we can say
cuz like wang said
time will tell
its happened in the past
it could happen again
thats my argument
looking at heroic week numbers and crafting a mainhand and saying "im gona main outlaw, it WONT matter"
is just silly
it could matter
wide coral
I crafted a main hand sadeg
frail veldt
now you could guess that it might not matter
cant argue against that
but no one knows for certain so we have to accept all possibilities
junior folio
Remember someone predicted this to be an assa tier
wintry solar
I crafted a main hand sadeg
You based for that ngl
frail veldt
Remember someone predicted this to be an assa tier
still could be
cold geyser
I mean, I'm gonna main outlaw regardless unless we go to absolute shit
keen belfry
i crafted a sword too!
versed crystal
ia trickster worse then fatebound?
wide coral
I might cook a unholy/feral on the background
frail veldt
I mean, I'm gonna main outlaw regardless unless we go to absolute shit
I mean same
wide coral
so if I'm legit dragging the raid down by playing rogue I'll swap
wintry solar
I might cook a unholy/feral on the background
I play DK so that in the off chance unholy is bad, I still get a tank
keen belfry
ofc popo plays blod
wintry solar
Since wrath bbg
wintry solar
Wpvp count?
frail veldt
nah wpvp is just pve
wintry solar
Okay then nah
keen belfry
i once did a key with that goat blood dk that everyone hypes up for going agianst the dk discord
he got one shot on the 2nd pull of the dungeon
wintry solar
Last time was SL with rbgs
keen belfry
whats the dk guys name
versed crystal
trickster or fatebound
wintry solar
Fat bound
keen belfry
his name isnt trickster or fatebound
wintry solar
keen belfry
last season
keen belfry
hes like famous for being banned from dk disc for theorycrafting his own shit and getting title
wintry solar
He's not telling the full story methinks
keen belfry
no no he didnt tell me this
hes legit known or some bs
ive heard max talk about it
cinder relic
but no one knows for certain so we have to accept all possibilities
I think assa is better
I think both sub and sin ahve fights
Other than alleria, any sin fight could just be an outlaw fight as well
keen belfry
world first mythic vorasius oulaw rogue pov
wide coral
also, whats the average uptime for adr now?
junior folio
What do you guys check on logs?
wide coral
apm/uptime on adr is what I usually go for
junior folio
Is there a clean way to check opportunity waste or wrong finishers?
keen belfry
no
wide coral
I dont know if wowanalyzer works
keen belfry
vod is best bet
junior folio
FML then
wide coral
yeah outlaw isnt supported yet
junior folio
I dont know if wowanalyzer works
Wasnt last time I checked
frail veldt
also, whats the average uptime for adr now?
Like 40+% I think in st sim
wide coral
the rng crackshot has been getting me too, many times it delays the proc and I waste opportunity because of it
because of high ping
junior folio
I was suffering on vorasius with that
runic gulch
It’s to do with projectile travel time I think
keen belfry
its not ping, the apex thing resets when the bte hits the boss not on cast
ye waht fieldy saying
junior folio
No wonder then, the math checks out
bronze wadi
are we still running HO until we get a certain amount of haste to run KIR or is HO just dedge now
fiery timber
Ho is dedge
craggy barn
maybe if rogue population goes even futher down they will do something
dim parrot
What healing potion y’all using
junior coral
holy hell, ive been playing outlaw and just checked out sub since the changes...
its like ret pally easy
is assassination just as simple as sub now?
celest hearth
what do you guys think about outlaw now, do you think they kinda killed the fun of the spec this xpac?
craggy barn
is assassination just as simple as sub now?
of the 3 specs, sin has historically been considered the simplest of the 3
the midnight changes has moved sub to probably simpler than sin
fiery timber
If they just gave rogues better visuals...
Just give crackshot and old rtb back
stuck tiger
what do you guys think about outlaw now, do you think they kinda killed the fun ...
I liked crackshot and kinda wish they just kept it w/o stealth, also back when they changed acrobatic strikes it made the spec feel way less smooth
celest hearth
s3 dragonflight outlaw was just chefs kiss
I feel like they ruined outlaw this xpac ngl, i know they are trying to simplify the game but it feels they sucked outlaws soul
stuck tiger
Im sayinngggg
Yeah i should like it but i think theres one too many changes in the wrong direction
celest hearth
like the whole point and uniqueness of outlaw is kinda gone, just stripped
keen belfry
we still feel unique, just less unique
stuck tiger
True
celest hearth
im cool with the rtb changes but they kinda killed my adhd BTE reset fetish
keen belfry
i think we wouldnt feel unique if compared to tww specs, but we are unique in this batch of midnight specs
stuck tiger
I feel like an idiot playing it sometimes wishing it could be what it was 😅
Could someone deadass make a reddit post asking for old acrobatic strikes back 🙏 or something
wintry solar
Just do what I do and cope that Legion 2.0 is coming next expansion and we're just playing template classes
They're gonna add so much cool stuff
keen belfry
Template specs is my cope too
junior coral
surly this 4% buff is going to put us at top 10 dps... lol
indigo token
Template specs is my cope too
wasnt the idea of template specs being coped about in DF cause of the talent trees
hoary folio
wintry solar
wasnt the idea of template specs being coped about in DF cause of the talent tre...
I never bought that because I personally felt they brought in too much stuff. Template for trees themselves maybe but idk about classes.
junior coral
whats the best way to lvl alts atm?
any on got a bomb way, think imma lvl some thing else for shits
grim spear
I’ve always felt that RtB is boring
because no matter what buffs you roll, you basically just keep playing the same way anyway
I wish it worked more like that.
cinder relic
wasnt the idea of template specs being coped about in DF cause of the talent tre...
What's the connection here
I think it's fairly easy to see these are like, a reset
dapper fjord
hell yeah we love kite
cinder relic
I can't see a world they would make things even simpler
What are they going to do on an expansion launch, nothing?
It's gonna be adding more shit
wintry solar
Different interacting passive talents
grim spear
If you roll 1: blade atacks goes into overdrive
If you roll 2: your pistol abilities go into overdrive
If you roll 3: gunslinger combos unleashed
cinder relic
Different interacting passive talents
Are passives not transformative?
wintry solar
Not always
cinder relic
Can they not be?
wintry solar
Can they not be?
They can
native tinsel
is guy on?
wintry solar
He's right there
cinder relic
is guy on?
Hello
native tinsel
tagged you in pvp for a ban
wintry solar
He's got pvp muted lolol
quaint wharf
its the tier of the bench rogue
wintry solar
Based ngl
hollow bloom
Time to rework the whole rogue class. 
grim spear
Hero talents have basically killed the talent tree
wintry solar
Nah but Guy I was half dooming. I know they're gonna add stuff and it'll probably be something we play around but my only worry is if I'll like it or not.
grim spear
there’s probably even less freedom now than back when it was just choosing 1 from 3
wintry solar
Yeah idk, I liked the idea.
grim spear
Adding new stuff isn’t necessarily a good thing
wintry solar
A lot of people wanted them to be cosmetic
wintry solar
Adding new stuff isn’t necessarily a good thing
Don't I know it
grim spear
The biggest problem with this game is its encounter design
it’s just way too boring. It confines gameplay to an extremely narrow space, and no matter what new things you add, it won’t make the game any more fun.
Basically every spec is doing the same thing. Whether it’s Mythic+ or raids, there’s really only one solution
and the only difference between spec comes down to their rotation
But how much variation can a rotation really carry? It just ends up getting more and more bloated.
polar kelp
Sounds like you are just done with WoW and MMOrpgs lol
cinder relic
Sounds like you are just done with WoW and MMOrpgs lol
Literally lmao
wintry solar
For me personally, if the spec I play is well designed and fun, I'll have more fun in general despite encounter design.
Hell I had fun doing korthia dailies as outlaw because it was just that fun
cinder relic
I think new raids = more fun
I think specs being different is fun
If u don't like new raids, or think the spec redesigns in midnight aren't fun then like idk
Gg?
wintry solar
It's fine to have that opinion ofc
polar kelp
I like chasing leaderboards and being a pirate, also helps that there's like 10 of us who play the spec so when you perform your group goes "Woah, outlaw is a thing?!?! That's awesome"
wintry solar
I think SL set the bar too high for me ngl
That was the only time I had fun grinding dailies and WQs and shit because the spec was just that fun
novel pier
would it be premature of me to blow my load of hero crests on a dagger? a simple yes or no will suffice
novel pier
ok ty
pearl topaz
I was having fun till I got in raid, was like "yeah cool, feeling smooth" and then check the meter like "oh no"
its especially annoying because the beginning of the season defines us for the rest, wont get anywhere later on even if buffs
we've had years of being trash in the eyes of others
past falcon
started the week at 11% haste i could cry rn
pearl topaz
lol nice, same. only at 21 now though
daring yoke
Guys i jus wanna say im an outlaw addict and i belive outlaw will be fixed 👍
cobalt token
started the week at 11% haste i could cry rn
I could also cry
Knowing I have the exact same stats ik you do fuck all damage
😭
fathom bramble
I wish ?? had some harder mechanics instead of just being a raw stat check
fathom bramble
after they nerfed valeera the trickster shit is just fake
craggy barn
yea
she just dies
i did a few attempts as sub and that was also not good
i did vanish tricks valeera for the last 5% tho
lul
did not want those enraged hands
cobalt token
finally did solo ?? as law
What kinda ilvl you at
fair ore
I’m curious is changing the ace up the sleeve from 6% to 7% an unnecessary jump? (No pun intended)
It’s like what 42% to 49%
Would make BtE a 50/50 on reset I can’t tell if that’s too much of a change
craggy barn
shrug, it doesnt fundamentally alter our gameplay if thats what ur asking
fathom bramble
okay so ?? is more doable now with better gear
I got it early with trickster tricks, but came back just to see how it is
craggy barn
yea can tank a lot more hits with gear
fathom bramble
258 2 tries for it as fatebound with no tricks
fathom bramble
got close there at the end though
fair ore
they dont want to give drastic changes to such an over performing spec
Understandable honestly
craggy barn
the enrage damage is scary lol
craggy barn
even rank 1 pots are huge
im sitting at a chill 1 mil rn off of leather and some crafting
craggy barn
im up like 700k
fathom bramble
which isn't too bad for not really trying to make money I think
craggy barn
i think ive made like 1mil this expac so far, but made some bad prof investments s
and over spent on stuff
craggy barn
skinning is nice now
quaint mauve
disencahnting is pretty op
craggy barn
with how good hides are
quaint mauve
mats sell for like 5k on my server
craggy barn
making 10-40k a day off skinning per character
and about 5-10k on alch conc crafting
disenchanting might dip
with m+ release
since flood of dawn crystals
quaint mauve
hmm
craggy barn
majestic hide farm is like a 10minute per char endeavor
quaint mauve
might invest in skinning
pseudo holly
Hey guys, what is the most likely cause of my mediocre damage as 248 outlaw my haste is low but i dont know what the issue is. My opener and rotation is decent but 30k single target feels abysmal
craggy barn
hard to say without logs or video
pseudo holly
okay, ill see what i can do.
craggy barn
make sure to read up on the #outlaw-faq rotation stuff
sturdy tartan
Outlaw is just so bad rn single target. Even though I have a 272 sword I am making the plunge to sub tomorrow after I craft my 272 dagger
For the first time since legion
With good rolls I’m at about 43-44k and in sub without changing to sub trinkets and having a 250/237 weapons I was doing about 42k
river wing
I think I'm down 150k so far this expac
damn
I'm down like 600k total across all seven crafters I have
fading igloo
With good rolls I’m at about 43-44k and in sub without changing to sub trinkets ...
You are at 43k dps on single target with a 272 sword???
That doesn’t seem right at all
trim tiger
Has anyone seen outlaws performance in ptr for dungeons ? Will look after work but wanted to see if anyone knew how it was performing
serene urchin
real quick is the 1hr tricks thing still around where you can just swap to trickster then swap back
sturdy tartan
You are at 43k dps on single target with a 272 sword???
Yeah , I’m only simming for about 52k
On long fights I’m at about 43-45ish at the end of the fight. For bosses that go down quick like m0 I’m doing like 60ish
fading igloo
I was on 40k after walking off the edge on Vorasius mid fight and just watching YouTube for a good bit
What’s your over all item level?
sturdy tartan
251
river wing
my only Vora log is 50k with 247 ilvl
and I have to confess I didn't hit adds at all in that fight
fading igloo
Yeah there is some tomfoolery afoot for you Nitro
river wing
so yeah, something is wrong-ish
sturdy tartan
Hmm before I make the switch tomorrow I’ll go into normal raid
pearl topaz
is this 4% going to cascade with the abilities to make us at least mid
sturdy tartan
I did make the weapon after clearing normal for the week
pearl topaz
phew, cope over
sturdy tartan
Yeah there is some tomfoolery afoot for you Nitro
You’re using the recommended raid spec ?
fading igloo
You’re using the recommended raid spec ?
Ye
Maybe also post the sim since it seems low for 250+
river wing
my Salha log is terribad tho, it's like 44k (still blue for some reason)
but I am so fucking mad every time I get a blue or a purple
and then a green demolock is still higher than me on absolute values
craggy barn
its blue bc low parse count lol
sturdy tartan
Maybe also post the sim since it seems low for 250+
Yeah o will do that when I get off tomorrow
topaz spoke
!up
ornate heathBOT
fading igloo
Int main stat dagger from M0 
cobalt token
have a dagger equipped in your MH
I wish it was that stupid of a mistake
I can send the log over to anyone who wants to laugh
😭
hollow bloom
Ya i average that much as well
When i was doing raids with the old man guild i play with.
hollow bloom
Didnt have all the expensive enchants, but my weapons are high ilvl and ya i dunno.
fading igloo
Post log/sim maybe there is something obvious to fix
hollow bloom
tender breach
!fuu
ornate heathBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
tender breach
does anyone know when fuu dungeon slice sims will be updated?
rich venture
is there a string for race sim
daring yoke
!tricks
ornate heathBOT
meager lichen
I'm seriously at my wits' end—I just don't understand what I'm doing wrong. I try my best to follow all the rules, and my gear isn't bad either, but I'm nowhere near the DPS that others are posting in the logs.
Is there any way to figure out exactly what I’m doing wrong? I look at logs from good players like @vivid vessel and watch his raid videos, but when it comes to the rotation, I don’t understand what I’m doing wrong... I often see in logs that my BTE and Dispatch deal less damage per fight, but I don’t know why that’s the case...
ornate heathBOT
Common errors for Outlaw -> see this answer in the FAQ.
random stirrup
hmm that appears a little bit out of date
random stirrup
yeah i was gonna say if you think you have the rules down and have watched zac and know in theory what to do you're probably just too slow
stiff hawk
Especially its outlaw its important to utilize every global to 100%
Because it spirals
If you are to slow to build or spend
your ADR gets resettet slower
or CDs in general
grim spear
If u don't like new raids, or think the spec redesigns in midnight aren't fun th...
So you’re saying we’re basically left with only two attitudes toward the game:
- I play it, so everything about it is fun
- The game isn’t fun at all, so I don’t play it
hollow creek
Hello is there anyone WHO can look at my log from yesterday and se if there is any major issues exept of speed? Pls