#outlaw

1 messages · Page 686 of 1

frosty violet
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Hi everyone, I had a few questions that i did not find any answer in the channels. If someone has advice or answers I'll be glad:

  • If I have 5 combo points and Between the eyes ready, should I use it or build more combos with sinister strike ?
  • I saw and read a lot of builds, and not a lot are talking about the dagger in offhand. Some are only saying that it is to improve instant poison damage. Is it not proccing more often the talent "Fatal Flourish" that has 25% chance to regen 8 energy per pistol or off-hand attack ?
cinder relic
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Not ff

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Just ip and zero in talent

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SS with 3 or less opp

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Ps with 6 or more opp

slim hare
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not sure about that at least since DF

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or did i miss something ?

cinder relic
#

Likely referencing mfo

vivid vessel
#

i think s3 tww was worse than now

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altough you could argue

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i have yet to see mythic and its looking rough

cinder relic
#

Although I'd say that mfo was the outlier as they just kinda gave up on tuning after 2? Main balance patches

vivid vessel
#

is mfo s3 tww

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what is mfo

cinder relic
#

Manaforge Omega

slim hare
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manaforge omega

vivid vessel
#

thats s3 right

slim hare
#

s3 tww y

soft abyss
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motherfucker

vivid vessel
#

ok

frosty violet
vivid vessel
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how do you guys remember names of things bro

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i cant

slim hare
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zac

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easy

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brain is not burned from playing too much outlaw

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weakness

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we suck at outlaw

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but names are ok

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x)

keen belfry
#

im pretty sure its only going to get much worse

vivid vessel
#

i think outlaw might be worse than s3 tww cause at least in s3 we had council fight

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this time we dont

slim hare
#

we do

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wdym

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we just suck on it

vivid vessel
#

?

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ye

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thats my point

slim hare
#

how is that not worse?

vivid vessel
#

i said

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in s3 tww we had council

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as in

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we had that boss

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we were good on

slim hare
#

yeah

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mb

cinder relic
#

Outlaw is technically still better on paladins than the other specs lawl

keen belfry
#

not ur bad akirio he typed it terribly

slim hare
#

i think we are worse than s3 tww

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but i might be wrong

vivid vessel
cinder relic
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But either way it's the first season, they are gonna be a lot more active with balance than s3

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Idk if u remember nerubar but they buffed rogue like 8+ times that tier

vivid vessel
#

hm

slim hare
#

need uncap bf

cinder relic
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Like every 2 weeks there was a new best spec

slim hare
#

of bf 100%

vivid vessel
#

idk

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issue is

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they rarely do bf tuning

slim hare
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come on give us a niche

vivid vessel
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and with that current bf

copper radish
vivid vessel
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idk if we can ever be good on anything

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m+ looking rough to me

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kinda doomed

keen belfry
#

yeah we literally cant be good at m+ atm

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unless we are gods at st

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and are we chat

slim hare
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yep we are gods

vivid vessel
#

we only lose 5% st this time

slim hare
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gods of shit dps

vivid vessel
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compared to like

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20%

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in tww

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so idk

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maybe we do more st than tank this season

keen belfry
vivid vessel
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one can hope

slim hare
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xD

proven ocean
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Zac

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I hope a dog wakes you up at night and meows at ur face

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Thoughts?

slim hare
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like mage or dK would ever get fucked for M+

vivid vessel
#

wtf D:

keen belfry
#

banger!

naive river
#

Until people get tier and ours is doo doo

zinc briar
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4% will put us under tank

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since our set is just 4%

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delete this fckn class

vivid vessel
#

our tier set isnt particularly worse than other

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its like

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right in the middle i think

slim hare
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yeah

keen belfry
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ye we have avg tier set, its just sub rogue tier exists

frail veldt
#

I think we all need to relax and just accept the fact that outlaw isnt meant to be an S tier spec. Yall should just try to have fun wherever you are on the meter. Getting denied from groups sucks but have you tried just having a team?

vivid vessel
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eh i guess its kinda bad

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you are right

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its low

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low mid

zinc briar
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no reason to play outlaw since sub set its 30 times better than ours

slim hare
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i'm not zac, i have no friend playing wow how do i get a team ?

vivid vessel
cinder relic
hardy vault
#

raiderio has a looking for team section @slim hare

keen belfry
karmic stag
#

Honestly Outlaw is in a Great spot but because not only is it S tier but it’s also U C K and another S

keen belfry
#

nice andreen!

vivid vessel
#

bars

keen belfry
#

outlaw S tier for SUCK TIER!

cinder relic
#

Something I was looking at last night was "how good is sub vs sin on boss damage" and thinking wow this is pretty close, it's gonna be crazy when sub gets tier.

But then every single log I looked at in the top 25 of each boss all had 4 set

vivid vessel
#

just need to wait next week

cinder relic
#

Idt it's gonna slingshot as hard as u might thing

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A lot of ppl top parsing just have full 4 piece

vivid vessel
#

well i dont think its gonna slingshot

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i just think its enough

frail veldt
#

the average will sling shot for sure though

vivid vessel
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to be better on most bosses

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also on some of these bosses

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assa boss damage is fake

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like if you check first boss for example

frail veldt
#

what percent of sub logs have tier?

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4 set

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like 25%?

vivid vessel
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assa doesnt swap off of boss

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so its way higher than everyone else

frail veldt
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less?

vivid vessel
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for no reason

keen belfry
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i dont think ive ever played a spec this bad early in the season im kinda pumped for the tuning coming

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like we are gonna be so good

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imagine the patch notesin 2 weeks

vivid vessel
naive river
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Haha as we get ignored the entire season

vivid vessel
#

you usually go hc first for splits

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most good guilds dont have 4p till end boss me think

slim hare
karmic stag
#

I just always fail to understand why they won’t let the melee pure dps shine while ranged pure dps at least have 1 amazing spec I’ve never understood it.

keen belfry
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surely we get huge buffs

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AND

slim hare
keen belfry
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people play rogue this tier

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so they will fux

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fix us

keen belfry
slim hare
karmic stag
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Sure but look at now. Would you say any of the rogue specs has a stand out like Frost for mage or MM for Hunter? Surely we need one

cinder relic
#

I mean ranged dps this tier was unreal levels of overtuned

keen belfry
cinder relic
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Shadow, Frost, devour, mm

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Warlock

keen belfry
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in 2 weeks we get MASSIVE BUFFS

cinder relic
#

All 3 warlock specs are beyond broken

keen belfry
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BF buffed to 55%

keen belfry
#

some of thes raid fights are so bad for melee

slim hare
cinder relic
formal thunder
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i keep getting eaten on crown intermission cause I'm greeding for CDR

vivid vessel
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well ok but ranged hit 2 bosses

cinder relic
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P3 has 1 boss

vivid vessel
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yes

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all of p2 tho

cinder relic
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P2 will be very good for ranged yes

vivid vessel
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well i guess thats irreelvant

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just metters damage

cinder relic
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P3 is generally better for melee cuz of the movement

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Now does the ratio of hurting melee to hurting range equal out? Genuinely don't know

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But p3 has a lot of movement for casters

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The other half of the question is also a bit leading

hardy vault
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isn't movement for caster just mostly a matter of proper pre-positioning

cinder relic
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usually it is the case that melee is just tuned higher than ranged

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But rn both the raid favors ranged, and also, the ranged dps are overtuned af

cinder relic
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U can't pre position it lol

hardy vault
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i haven't done the fight yet, didn't know the stacking was that important

karmic stag
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Call Outlaw a ranged spec because of pistol shot if that’s what gets me some buffs lol I’ll have some overtuned range please.

cinder relic
#

Yeh

naive river
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Make outlaw mid range spec that only uses pistols! Hahaha

karmic stag
slim hare
frail veldt
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yea

karmic stag
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I mean I’d take some pally tuning, they are in a pretty good place

frail veldt
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pala QoL is huge

hardy vault
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i wonder how blizz justifies melee dps like uh being basically able to do 80% of their rotation at range

frail veldt
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youre assuming they even think about it

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which is silly

naive river
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Dude I miss old acrobatic strikes so much

slim hare
karmic stag
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They run the same patchwerk no movement sims and go off that at best

slim hare
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or at least we think we do but we don't angle

hardy vault
waxen scarab
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!fuu

ornate heathBOT
long barn
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Is there a Apex 1 bug?

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!bug

ornate heathBOT
frail veldt
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I believe those are old

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few of them have been fixed

cinder relic
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U need to be in melee range on these specs

long barn
#

Anyone know about this?

When Apex 1 triggers, the resolved damage for Between the Eyes (BtE) is lower than expected.

I guess the damage calculation misses out on 4 combo points, including Supercharger CPs. This results in the damage of a BtE that triggers Apex 1 being even slightly lower than a 6+ CPs Dispatch.

cinder relic
#

Ret paladin can't just "stack with ranged and do damage" a large portion of your damage, and holy power comes from melees

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Dk can't just stack with ranged rither lol

hardy vault
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i mean yeah you lose melee swings

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and for ret pal that might be bad

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but time away from boss does not cost them as much as us

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or am i just completely wrong with that idea

cinder relic
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It doesn't cost as much, yes

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But there's this idea that these "specs that have ranged abilities" can just play at range isn't exactly true

naive river
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Give me my 8yard range back!

cinder relic
#

They still lose large amounts of damage for being not in melee range

frail veldt
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like whats the sim on that

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if they had 20% uptime lets say

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how much dps would they drop

cinder relic
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I have no fucking clue man lmao

frail veldt
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I think thats kinda the question here

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cuz for most melee they would lose 80% of their dps haha

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but for uhdk and ret I dont think its even remotely that high

long barn
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Anyone? Apex 1 bug? BtE?

karmic stag
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Well even realistically, what do we lose by breaking engagement for even 5 seconds vs them

cinder relic
#

It'd probably be around 60% if I had to guess

frail veldt
long barn
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Weird

frail veldt
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whered you find that info

long barn
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It’s def happening

outer meteor
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you dont have to do delve boss this week for the crests right

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cuz this is cancer

zinc briar
#

finally!! we got a buff!!!!

buffoutlaw.jpg
frail veldt
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do you have logs or vods of it happening

zinc briar
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niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice

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guys we come back to meta

long barn
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Yea I’ll post it when I get home. I read it late last night and I forgot to ask

frail veldt
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read it where?

formal thunder
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thoughts?

image.png
long barn
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Here I think

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Someone posted it

naive river
long barn
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I was expecting a pin or something

cinder relic
#

ret opaladin would probably lose a fuckload moving out

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les for UDK

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cuz ud be missing ut on divine hammer damage, melees, and the actual CP from your melees as well

frail veldt
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in fact I thought we found the opposite which is that supercharger benefits bte more than 3cp for some reason

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but that ones also inconsistent

vivid vessel
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ye i thought we found the opposite

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but idk

long barn
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Oh

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Maybe I missed that part

naive river
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Is the ace up your sleeve .5 patch change good or bad?

vivid vessel
#

we could have misunderstood what we saw tho

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your explanation would make more sense

polar kelp
frail veldt
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but for output it could be a damage loss

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if nothing else changes

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cuz it just makes ace cost more talents and were pretty short on them as is

long barn
#

The way I understood it from when I read it.

When Apex 1 triggers, the resolved damage for Between the Eyes (BtE) is lower than expected.

Damage calculation misses out on 4 combo points, including Supercharger CPs. This results in the damage of a BtE that triggers Apex 1 being even slightly lower than a 6+ CPs Dispatch.

Wouldn’t that be like BtE's damage ends up being about 13.5% to 20% lower than expected, which results in a 6-7%+ overall damage??

I guess I can try to find it in logs tonight.

frail veldt
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not really relevant

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can probably attempt to just observe cdr impact of using a bte with apex and supercharger

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need logs of someone attempting to proc this situation over and over to probably figure it out

naive river
#

You talking about the free between the eye reset doing less damage?

long barn
lime lake
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so ret would lose a massive amount yes

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unholy i think would get away with it a bit more

cinder relic
#

U'd lose out on melee damage, the HP from melee hits

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U'd lose out on divine hammer damage as well

frail veldt
cinder relic
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whatever the one is that spin around your character

indigo token
#

Forever guy, what do you think of Preperation?

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I think its a really bad feeling CD

cinder relic
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It shouldn't be on the gcd

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And it should just be "2 charges of x y z" spell

lime lake
# frail veldt 47%

i feel like thats very easily enough to put this conversation past the point of irrelevance though

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like yeah maybe they would theoretically lose a bit less than other melee, but they'd still be fucked regardless

naive river
frail veldt
cinder relic
lime lake
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and thats without looking at divine hammer or crusading strikes damage contribution

polar kelp
frail veldt
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but esp when downtime is almost never 100%

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its usually in short periods

naive river
cinder relic
#

Downtime doesn't matter for short downtime either if you have Ps procs banked

lime lake
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well short periods of downtime outside of cds also dont hurt most melee that much anyway

cinder relic
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And bte ready

frail veldt
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LOL

cinder relic
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Or fury can leap out charge in

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Lose 2 globals and gain fury on the charge

lime lake
#

it matters more when the downtime is

frail veldt
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if you step away for 5-10s as outlaw

lime lake
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but also obv outlaw is different there yes

frail veldt
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theres no "pooling PS" that will help you

cinder relic
#

Notice how you went from short downtime to 10 seconds there

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Very tricky

frail veldt
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what do you call short

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is 10 seconds long now?

cinder relic
#

If Ur standing out of a boss for 10 seconds as any dps, other than probably unholy Ur gonna be not happy about it

lime lake
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like if i walk away from the boss for a few seconds as sub outside of dance, im likely losing less damage than ret is

frail veldt
#

I considered dimensius long

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you know

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flying on a mount

random stirrup
#

10 seconds is an insane amount of downtime

frail veldt
#

but

cinder relic
#

10 seconds is genuinely a massive amount of time in a raid encounter

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What active mechanic takes u out of a fight for 10 seconds

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An intermission phase doesn't count lol

lime lake
#

my cat spilling my drink on my keyboard

frail veldt
#

yeah I guess I was including the whole fight

cinder relic
#

It's an intermission phase, everybody is losing damage

polar kelp
#

My favourite is on dreamrift, watching your 4buff expire with 10sec left on KIR..cause your standing by a puddle waiting for the healer to dispel you....which they just dont

frail veldt
#

so theres lots of intermissions and travel things or go through portal etc type bs

random stirrup
#

so real actually that dispel is 10+ seconds of downtime

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at least while it was a private aura

frail veldt
#

I mean guy are you trying to imply ret is no better at handling short downtime than outlaw?

lime lake
#

me running 100 yards away from the boss in fear not getting dispelled

cinder relic
#

Did I ever say that

karmic stag
#

Run away from boss and let the fear bring you back

frail veldt
#

I said imply

lime lake
#

i mean this is what started the conversation

image.png
#

not "does ret lose less than outlaw or not"

frail veldt
flat pebble
#

hoo lee sheet

lime lake
#

obviously ret loses less

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thats not the argument

polar kelp
#

Popcorn time

cinder relic
#

Short downtime is like, 2-4 seconds

frail veldt
flat pebble
frail veldt
#

if they can or cant do this

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and for how long

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like a warrior can do 0 of their rotation when theyre at range right

cinder relic
#

This is what I said

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"ret probably loses like 60 if I had to guess"

formal thunder
karmic stag
#

I personally think 5 seconds would be the hard cap for a “short” downtime. Quick in an outs are ~2 seconds themselves sometimes

lime lake
cinder relic
#

In lucky conditions outlaw is fine for a 2-4 second downtime

frail veldt
#

its also gotta depend how often those 5 seconds occur

polar kelp
#

If your keyboard breaks, just play BM hunter...you only need like 2 mouse buttons for optimal

frail veldt
#

the percentage matters obv

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if its 5 seconds every 15 seconds thats fucked for some specs

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outlaw especially

cinder relic
#

What encounter is giving u 5 seconds of downtime on a regular basis

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Like what are u talking about man

polar kelp
frail veldt
#

I dont fucking know thats the point lol

lime lake
#

my cats could also cause that

frail veldt
#

some specs feel a lot less pain in downtime than others

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I dont think blizzard considers this though

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they dont care

formal thunder
cinder relic
#

And if there was a mechanic that gave my grandma wheels she'd be a bike

formal thunder
#

you gonna get them sticky keys

frail veldt
#

they just balance based on raidlogs

cinder relic
vivid vessel
#

guys ..

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stop fighting ..

cinder relic
#

U are upset about them not designing specs around 5 seconds, common downtime

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Despite this NEVER being in a raid encounter

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Get a grip

formal thunder
#

I got a hot swappable keyboard now so taking it apart and cleaning it would be less of a hassle KEKW

lime lake
#

make outlaw pistol spec

frail veldt
#

why would I be upset about that

lime lake
#

pew pew

karmic stag
frail veldt
#

Im upset at pretending like some specs arent hurt WAY more by downtime than others

cinder relic
#

WHO IS YOU TALKING TO

lime lake
#

no one is making that argument

frail veldt
#

im just referring to the original topic brought up which asked how blizzzard justifies this

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I dont think they do

cinder relic
#

Nobody in the entire wow player base would think this is true

frail veldt
#

I dont think they consider it at all

cinder relic
#

No wow player thinks every spec loses the same from a mechanic

frail veldt
#

idk why youre arguing about that then

keen belfry
#

i think ranged lose more from having to be out of melee than melee do

#

thoughts

cinder relic
frail veldt
#

true

lime lake
#

reel

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they dont get the joy

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of being in melee

trail galleon
#

!up

frail veldt
#

but yeah ranged and uhdk dont lose as much from downtime but no I dont think blizzard considers this or attempts to "justify" it

ornate heathBOT
cinder relic
#

I'm just pointing out that ret paladin loses a lot from not being in melee

keen belfry
#

travel time really fucks their dps

frail veldt
#

they just balance based on raid logs

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and move on

karmic stag
#

The topic was about blizzard choices in their balancing. They don’t factor in the downtime the way that actual players think about downtime. That’s where the wires are crossed here.

frail veldt
#

iiwii

cinder relic
#

Its not accurate to say "ret paladin can just play from ranged"

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They can't

frail veldt
#

who said that

cinder relic
#

They lose a massive amount of damage

frail veldt
#

why are you arguing that

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no one in the history of wow

cinder relic
#

Mewo are u legit 5

frail veldt
#

lol

random stirrup
cinder relic
#

Genuinely are u 5

frail veldt
#

is that a genuine question guy?

formal thunder
vivid vessel
#

so im a bit scared

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the 30% bf

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doesnt really

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i dont have much hope

frail veldt
#

hey the good news is theres at least a chance they buff it

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cuz we dont have PC to overinflate our aoe performance in raid

vivid vessel
#

hm

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they dont tune m+ so

frail veldt
#

but they might tune raid!

vivid vessel
#

good m+ specs are just good raid specs

random stirrup
frail veldt
#

is what im sayin

vivid vessel
#

that dont get nerfed

random stirrup
#

surely they carry you again

vivid vessel
#

i mean ok but

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i would rather not just get carried again

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felt terrible in s3

frail veldt
#

tbh zac

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hard truth

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outlaw is a bad main for someone who wants to push high keys

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its just not setup for success in m+

gleaming reef
#

Outlaw is just like survival hunter

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when MM and BM were owning

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meme spec

keen belfry
cinder relic
#

I don't think any individual spec is good for maining m+ other than like, balance druid..?

random stirrup
#

rogue in keys garf

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press ur aoe stop lil gup

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ill wait

lime lake
keen belfry
#

youll wait until .5

cinder relic
frail veldt
#

there are some that have more core mechanics that put them in a better position to be in meta

formal thunder
keen belfry
frail veldt
#

like a spec with hero

karmic stag
#

I just miss when people wanted my group stealth to skip trash. Now they don’t even want that

frail veldt
#

or a good group dps buff

vivid vessel
#

or a spec not hard capped ?

frail veldt
#

uncapped aoe

#

etc

vivid vessel
#

ye make sense

cinder relic
#

Not class

frail veldt
#

yeah balance is a good one

vivid vessel
frail veldt
#

uncapped aoe

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and silence

vivid vessel
#

with mage i think

frail veldt
#

HUGE silencee

keen belfry
frail veldt
#

beam is giga

cinder relic
#

Mage isn't a spec

random stirrup
#

it's either that or fire mage

vivid vessel
#

true !

frail veldt
#

fire mage is a good choice too yeah

cinder relic
#

If Ur talking class it's 100% mage

random stirrup
#

mage rdruid

#

maybe rdruid*

vivid vessel
frail veldt
#

Id agree mage is good pick

cinder relic
#

Mage is legit good every season isn't it lol

frail veldt
#

heros of wow

vivid vessel
#

at least since i started playing i think balance has been there maybe more

#

i would need to think about it

#

!

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deeply !

random stirrup
frail veldt
#

yeah but its not "carry me" bad like some seasons rogue has been

random stirrup
#

tww1 for example

frail veldt
#

mage is pretty safe

random stirrup
#

the chinese still played it at top key level

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but no one else did

vivid vessel
outer meteor
#

guys i have sinned

keen belfry
#

ye maybe mewo was saying it smostly outlaw is actually just a bad spec to pick, there arent many good ones that are safe bets (there are some) i agree

outer meteor
#

i went sub for delve boss

vivid vessel
#

gg..

frail veldt
karmic stag
frail veldt
#

I genuinely think it might be outlaw lol

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or affi

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its never affi

outer meteor
#

and one shot as sub

#

superior spec it seems

vivid vessel
#

i think consistent damage is not as much a liability in keys than it is in raid

frail veldt
#

thats true

random stirrup
empty tulip
#

yeah, 0s im keeping up -- keys will feel even better (i hope/cope). in raid, the profile of the fight sometimes makes me look pathetic on meters lol

random stirrup
#

actually df3 was mw wasnt it

empty tulip
#

which is a bummer because 98% of the fun of raid for me is gapping my friends on the meters lmao

random stirrup
#

pres has kinda been ass since that first season

vivid vessel
cinder relic
#

Other than paladins lol

#

It's just general tuning

random stirrup
#

i dont think brew has ever been meta since i started playing

empty tulip
random stirrup
#

but obv its been strong

cinder relic
#

I think this raid is like, super fine for outlaw, it's just there's no numbers rn

vivid vessel
cinder relic
#

There's not a lot of "burst required here" in the raid

frail veldt
#

and low keys

keen belfry
cinder relic
random stirrup
#

dev evoker also never had a chance with aug

cinder relic
#

That's why I was so up on outlaw this szn

#

Cuz the raid is kinda like, super good for it

#

But no numbers gg

vivid vessel
#

you forgot bf got nerfed cuh

keen belfry
#

your slow decline on rogue has been a funny thing to witness

frail veldt
#

if we had PC still

keen belfry
#

i remeber u saying "guys i think outlaw is thanos"

frail veldt
#

we might crank

vivid vessel
frail veldt
#

and then get giga nerfed for m+

#

lol

vivid vessel
#

its the week 1 thing

keen belfry
#

but usually hes right in the fact we do dmg

frail veldt
#

the real question is

keen belfry
#

we fart out shit rn

frail veldt
#

did guy craft sword?

vivid vessel
#

sure if you say it every season sometimes you have chances of being not totally wrong

karmic stag
#

I just want the intern that does the tuning to mess up decimals and give us 40% for 20 minutes before the rapid hotfix comes

#

Let me feel alive

frail veldt
#

I dont understand the statement "if they tune us to do good damage we will be good in this raid" isnt that just universally a fact for all specs

vivid vessel
#

ye for outlaw it just needs to be 20% more

#

all good

river wing
keen belfry
#

zac what do u think BF need sto be

#

% wise

frail veldt
#

i bet he says 50%

vivid vessel
#

at least 10% higher to not be dogshit

keen belfry
#

my number was 55

frail veldt
#

damn

vivid vessel
#

but ye prolly 50%

river wing
#

I mean
50% is fair innit?

vivid vessel
#

idk considering we lost pc and are the only spec in the game hard capped

#

i would think so

frail veldt
#

50% would be a 66% increase to our current amount LOL

#

thats an insane buff

vivid vessel
#

i guess blizz doesnt see it that way

keen belfry
#

im down to not blast at low targets, wed blast at 8 targets at 55% i think

river wing
#

it would mean we cleave for 500% damage on 8 targets, same as most specs' 5-target capped aoe

vivid vessel
#

how come

frail veldt
#

I know its just funny

#

how off the mark they are

vivid vessel
#

ye but i mean

frail veldt
#

from what we think we should be

vivid vessel
#

its justified

frail veldt
#

our aoe needs a 66% buff

#

LOL

vivid vessel
#

outlaw shouldnt be one of the worse 2 target spec in the game

#

when its target capped

#

ahs no cd

#

require perma uptime

worldly shale
#

Whats the bajayjay should i spend champ crests or nah with the new system or whatev

vivid vessel
#

like wtf does the spec do

river wing
#

like number-wise, most specs' AoE is either 5 target or 8 target softcap

keen belfry
#

the fact we compete with black powder sub rogue in 2-3 target cleave is quite funny

vivid vessel
#

cuck chair spec

#

imo

cinder relic
karmic stag
#

What about sliding scale to target cap? 100% cleave on 2, scales until the 50% with full 8

cinder relic
#

I knew it'd be bad in nfo

frail veldt
#

whats nfo

formal thunder
#

what if blizzard lets us target 2 mobs at the same t ime and stab one with the left and one with the right hand?

cinder relic
#

Mfo

frail veldt
#

ah

vivid vessel
vivid vessel
#

you kinda capping now

frail veldt
#

to the archives!

brisk meadow
vivid vessel
#

ye im not digging

#

gl with that

lime lake
frail veldt
#

nah im about to get lunch

icy hare
#

bring back MfD + Bonespike

frail veldt
#

imma get a sandiwch

#

on some nice dutch crunch bread

keen belfry
#

this is all i could find in my 10 seconds of digging

image.png
#

from: guy thanos

#

banger search

river wing
#

which means the average AoE ability does 500% or 800% damage in an appropriate pack while doing maybe 60% of anything ST to one target
60*800 = 480% effectiveness for 8-target cleave, or thereabouts
so our cleave wouldn't be out of line if it did 450% (100% x1+50% x7), esp seeing as it's hardcapped rather than softcapped

vivid vessel
#

haha

brisk meadow
#

i just want df s3 outlaw back

cinder relic
#

This was a week before mfo

#

And then sin looked better until we got to forgeweaver

vivid vessel
#

sounds like cap bud

river wing
#

Sin in MFO was weird
it's good early on, then kinda eh, then v good at Dimmy

cinder relic
#

And then from there on out sub just kinda smoked everything

formal thunder
keen belfry
#

outlaw tier will be this tier

cinder relic
#

Leaning towards sin after heroic but mythic sub solo solved so many fights

sullen walrus
#

boys, dragons in the voidspire

#

aoe or st?

river wing
#

aoe

#

there will be tons of orb adds that need to be cleaved quickly

#

and the final phase allows you to cleave dragons

#

you gain a lot more DPS from getting just a few orb packs than you lose from not having a couple of ST talents

#

(ranged bastards get to cleave willy-nilly the entire fight, smh)

random stirrup
#

and i will find these

#

but i think this might be one of the funniest messages ive read in a while in the new context

cinder relic
#

Dude its like actually disgusting reading that channel sometimes

#

Like sub will be lower on WCL and u'll see people say "Oh another sin tier? Great"

#

as if its not been a sub tier for like, GENUINELY over 4 years atp

random stirrup
#

well to be clear here it's funny because you've been saying it won't be a sub tier and you don't know why people always think it's a sub tier

#

but yes people doom there too hard

keen belfry
#

outlaw channel is genuinely best channel

#

objectively

lime lake
#

factually incorrect

soft abyss
random stirrup
#

yes for mfo

soft abyss
#

yeah

vivid vessel
#

its always a sub tier

#

:D

random stirrup
#

alleria will be assa, the rest will be sub

#

except vanguard

#

maybe a 5th healer there

vivid vessel
#

idk about alleria assa

#

sub is better on every phase but last

#

i know sin might do more boss damage

#

but thats also not garanted

#

cuase it depends on kill timer

soft abyss
#

But probably you get 2 DMs in last phase and one is execute

random stirrup
#

phase was 3mins on heroic surely it's at least 2 dms on mythic

vivid vessel
#

yes but sub might just get 3 cds tho

normal quail
#

does anyone opt out of prep for the extra point in summarily dispatched? idk why but prep being on the gcd is just bleh

random stirrup
#

hmmge you think the 3 min phase will become 4min on mythic

#

or 330

#

ig it could be possible

vivid vessel
#

its already 3 30 on hc

#

on some kills

#

i checked

#

some people could have sent 3 cds

random stirrup
#

I swear my blades came up as we hit the hard enrage

#

the one time we did

#

maybe i didnt have it on phase start

vivid vessel
#

yes and you prolly delayed slightly a cast

soft abyss
#

also sub cd is like 100 sec

#

but you can maybe forgo an ST cast

random stirrup
#

meh with guidon you can force it to be 90s

soft abyss
#

to fit another sb

random stirrup
#

if you need to

vivid vessel
#

wdym 100

soft abyss
#

but yeah depends on trinkets etc

random stirrup
#

im still favouring sin on alleria

#

but i think the rest are sub

vivid vessel
#

but yes in theory

random stirrup
#

they are probably noobs not potting 2nd dm

vivid vessel
#

it maybe does more

#

but an exec press doesnt neccesseraly means its better

#

sub st and sin st is basically the same

random stirrup
#

my sub sims 12k higher than my sin

vivid vessel
#

sin sims are completly broken

#

so

proven ocean
#

Didjeifhdisjsi

random stirrup
#

ye ig

soft abyss
#

Also in sim the pot is used at start

random stirrup
#

i suppose it does really just depend if sub gets a 3rd cd

soft abyss
#

Don't know how much of a waste this is

vivid vessel
#

in p1 and p2

#

well i guess p2 is same

random stirrup
#

ye

vivid vessel
#

but p1 is better as sub you get 2 uses

random stirrup
#

nah you will press kb and the guy will jump away

#

gg

vivid vessel
#

im sure it line up fine

static crescent
#

Soon outlaw notes

proven ocean
#

!

random stirrup
#

when u unretire zeross

proven ocean
#

Not anytime soon

#

If unemployed again i will come back

keen belfry
#

Work + wow is easy

#

Zeross so washed

cinder relic
#

I know it is just a meme reference

keen belfry
#

Is it thanks

#

Thanks

#

Thanos

lime lake
#

thanks thanos

bright crane
#

New tier, same convos am I right

keen belfry
#

We are creatures of habit

#

And creatures of fart

bright crane
#

Like ol’s damage profile

#

This disc is consistent

nova sinew
river wing
frail flower
#

anyone here solo nullaeus and have talent recs?

keen belfry
#

run aoe build

#

and trickster

#

perma tricks

cinder relic
frail flower
worthy surge
#

numbing also better than atrophic for nullaeus

#

heal

marble lava
#

Hey guys I’m new to outlaw usually play sin what addons can I use to track stuff I use to use weak auras but don’t any more . I’m finding it hard to keep track of everything going on

frail flower
#

ohhh ok ill try that as well

#

thank you guys for the tips!!

keen belfry
#

healer

worthy surge
#

but it took me a while to make it work for me

marble lava
worthy surge
#

yeah I have sound notifications for some cds

#

but after having played the spec for a decent amount of time this xpac you kind of build muscle memory

#

youre mostly watching your oppportunity procs once youre comfortable

#

and maybe you start watching your bullets up your sleeve once youre super comfortable

marble lava
#

Oh okay thanks man

worthy surge
#

but its a lot of practice outlaw definitely takes some getting used to

marble lava
#

Yeah I’m going to have to start hitting training dummies again

karmic stag
#

I track what step my Roll the Bones is just so I know if it rolled the lowest. Dice rolling is simplified enough for that now.

marble lava
#

Okay oh yeah I usually pop roll th bones and blade fury before going into a mob my single target damage isn’t that great but I’m only 210 ilvl now

wooden pilot
#

@vivid vessel what’s the weapon transmog you’re rocking

vivid vessel
#

the good one

cinder relic
#

Legion magetower

karmic stag
#

the entire tower

outer meteor
#

do we run out of energy more often without sham buff?

wooden pilot
#

gonna make me go to eu armory 😭

frail veldt
marble lava
#

I feel like I run out of energy a lot so I’d say I have to look at spending it better

vivid vessel
#

can buy from vendor

#

with coin thing

wooden pilot
#

bless you

vivid vessel
#

ty for blessing

junior coral
#

withered saptors paw is trash huh

#

delve trinket

polar kelp
fair spade
#

Have yall been able to do the delve boss as outlaw? Felt like I needed the sub burst to kill the adds in time.

river zenith
#

Quick question, for the panda racial, does it work with any food buff? And it essentially doubles the gain? And it works in both raids and m+?

real yew
#

Is Platynator better than the old plater?

frail veldt
#

I still prefer plater for pve

real yew
#

K, ty

outer meteor
#

cuz everyone time theres no shaman in raid i feel starved

frail veldt
#

yeah its not related

#

at least as far as I know

#

even if it was fatal flourish isnt a huge part of our energy economy

#

its 13% of our energy gain

#

so even if windfury procs increased your offhand swings by like 20% youd see barely a 2.5% increase in overall energy

gaunt phoenix
#

Skyfury certainly affects energy

frail veldt
#

I guess you could sim it to see how much you gain

#

I feel like energy is the new adr uptime

lucid sparrow
#

whats that site called

#

where u can throw in ur logs and it shows stats

#

of a raid fight

#

shows wat u used and didnt etc

frail veldt
#

raidbots

#

oh

lucid sparrow
#

no

frail veldt
#

the log review?

#

I dont think its up to date

normal quail
#

outlaw out rolling meta classes W

image.png
frail veldt
#

wowanalyzer or something

lucid sparrow
#

yea thats the one

frail veldt
#

@vivid vessel do you know if its up to date

lucid sparrow
#

Gg

earnest falcon
#

are we getting better or worse in M+ because i dont feel too bad in 0 rn

vague cape
#

killed alleria as outlul bc most fun

mighty pivot
#

ok it's time to bring PC back and bake it in GM

mystic berry
#

The hardest part will be getting invites over a sea of frost mages and demo locks

#

but should be ok if you make your groups

earnest falcon
#

I can already see that 253 IVl and still getting declined sometimes but we can only hope

vague cape
#

smh rl gave me the alleria sword and said "Mo i don't wanna ever see that spec in raid"

#

🥲

mystic berry
#

OUTLAW!

vague cape
#

I just said "yo, don't check the logs :)"

daring yoke
#

Blizz sees valleria doing well in delves thats why we not getting any proper tuning

mystic berry
#

this is why we went years without being great

keen belfry
glacial spade
#

My fellow Outlaws, probably dumb question; How can you tell between having only 3 stacks of Opportunity vs 6? Do I need an addon?

cinder relic
#

just the base cooldown manager

gaunt phoenix
#

through the cdm you add opportunity as a buff or a cooldown

#

And then it will literally say 3 or 6 on it

glacial spade
#

Hmm ok. I will try it. Thanks!

river maple
#

is it possible to move a specific buff somewhere else on the screen or do they all the buffs have to be side by side ?

gaunt phoenix
#

not without an addon

noble moon
#

chat i got 2 purple parses in my first raid as outlaw are you proud of me

rocky kiln
#

does crucible work without the upgrades?

tiny onyx
#

I feel like when I play outlaw I'm weaker when it comes to AoE situations in raid vs ST - is there a tip concerning AoE where I could improve or do I just need to spam a bunch of M+ and high keys to get comfortable in AoE situations?

I'm not talking about using bladefurry at x targets or at x-cp but moreso like positioning in AoE situations.

river maple
next wedge
#

my character sux

gaunt phoenix
next wedge
#

is my sim so low bc i dotn have enough haste yet

#

or is it about right for ilevel

amber ibex
#

!ui

ornate heathBOT
gaunt phoenix
#

You're just gearing

#

need crafted embellished weapon

river maple
#

is the 259 crafted better than whatever we will get in m+ this week ?

amber ibex
#

any complete outlaw uis?

#

been googling around

solar iron
#

which is better than anything you'd get from m+

river maple
#

o so should just craft now then ?

hoary otter
#

there's no way arms is getting buffed and rogue gets nothing

vivid vessel
#

we got 4 %

solar iron
#

if you're 100% playing outlaw only

hoary otter
#

ik, but blizz released new patchnote

solar iron
#

can just craft it now

vivid vessel
waxen scarab
#

last minute tuning we didnt get shit

hoary otter
#

fk arms

waxen scarab
#

fuck blizzard

karmic stag
#

We are the lucky ones. Another spec only got 3%. Outlaw is eating good!

hoary otter
#

let outlaw be good

waxen scarab
hoary otter
heavy shadow
#

doom and gloon aside anyone managed Nullaeus ??

#

I'm just being melee'd to death by boss, no chance

twilit topaz
#

I miss my crackshot windows, feeeeels boring now

cinder relic
heavy shadow
#

Do you need to level Valeera to certain point to stand a chance?

cinder relic
#

Uhh idk mine was decently leveled

heavy shadow
#

Managed to get past first set of adds but after that I'm just getting one shot more or less

outer meteor
#

but i went sub for it

#

i just had her tank with tricks and cycle defensives while resing her

next wedge
#

im waiting for myth crests to come out to craft

#

im not world first raiding idc

daring yoke
#

Our beloved Outlaw ways be lookin’ like a leaky dinghy in a storm right now — damage be lower than a sunken chest and luck drier than the captain’s biscuit. But mark me words… this be but a rough tide.
Hold fast to yer blades and don’t be abandonin’ ship just yet. The winds will turn, the dice will roll true again, and soon we’ll be plunderin’ the meters like the ruthless pirates we are.

sand jewel
#

Question: Is it better to use sinister strike at 1 combo point, even tho OPP has procced once?

naive river
#

I got him yesterday companion around lvl 30 I was at 250ilvl

#

Weaving in a lot of fients

hollow creek
#

is the 4% buff gonna make a difference ?

#

maybe stupid question but feels like its nothing

vivid vessel
#

no

fathom bramble
#

4% is not enough to make a meaningful difference

#

we need the ungutting of BF in order to realistically ever compete on some of these fights

vivid vessel
#

lok

#

in your opinion

#

is dimensuis worse than crown for outlaw

fathom bramble
#

yes

#

but we haven't seen myth crown yet

cinder relic
#

downtime just sucks for outlaw now

fathom bramble
#

it's entirely possible that my opinion quickly changes

cinder relic
#

FOr old outlaw is was debilitating

proven ocean
vivid vessel
#

i mean

proven ocean
#

Its like tindral

vivid vessel
#

you should check wcl ..

proven ocean
#

U soak and shit

#

Its ass

fathom bramble
#

mismanaged downtime gets you stuck in basically the same kind of broken feedback loop as before

#

except instead of AR maintenance

#

it's 1 buff of RTB

vivid vessel
#

r1 spec is doing twice the boss damage than outlaw is btw

image.png
fathom bramble
#

you can break out from good rng, but I'm not convinced it is all that different

vivid vessel
#

idk i thought that was kinda extreme

proven ocean
#

Twice isn’t that bad

leaden sonnet
vivid vessel
proven ocean
fathom bramble
#

pretty sure1 buff RTB is more of a damage loss than missing ar even was...

vivid vessel
#

like this is dimensius

image.png
vivid vessel
#

that new outlaw feels the same as old

#

because dropping 2 rtb

mighty pivot
vivid vessel
#

is terrible

#

so you still need 100% uptime

fathom bramble
#

need 2 charges on AR so bad

vivid vessel
#

people didnt believe me tho

#

so

mighty pivot
#

ye but... 4% this week

fathom bramble
#

I always said losing AR didn't even feel that bad

#

even arguing with you over it 😛

#

but being at 1 buff is a whole different world

vivid vessel
#

:D

#

removing uuh fixed outlaw issues guys

#

:D

fathom bramble
#

It’s just a new feedback loop that almost feels worse since rng can save you

vivid vessel
#

no but

#

in all seriousness lok

#

are you sure dimmy was worse

#

like you see that graph right

vivid vessel
fathom bramble
#

We were tuned considerably better on dim

vivid vessel
#

were we

fathom bramble
#

I thought you meant just how damaging the fight was for us

vivid vessel
#

we have better st rn

#

than in tww

#

s3

vivid vessel
#

that + outlaw design for the fight

remote pecan
#

my absolute best 1% wipe crown pull as outlaw was only 80k

fathom bramble
#

I think st was better in tww

remote pecan
#

time to change spec imo

fathom bramble
#

We competed on loomithar after all

restive mango
#

they could rework deadly pursuit to give increased cdr if you roll a one. call it insurance or something like that

vivid vessel
#

idk my reference is fractilus

#

and we look way better on king thsi tier

#

than we did on fractilus

#

similar on vorasius

#

i think you remember wrongly about outlaw st in tww

#

:D

keen belfry
vivid vessel
#

maybe it changed later into the patch but

#

im still looking at .2 not .2.5

fathom bramble
#

Vorasius kills all the casters dps

vivid vessel
#

i think current outlaw st is relatively solid, its just not better than sub or sin

vivid vessel
fathom bramble
#

We did better than that on loom early i swear

#

Idk

next wedge
#

guys im so washed at this game

vivid vessel
#

ye i wish i could check earlier logs

fathom bramble
#

Not at my pc so I won’t be finding any graphs

vivid vessel
#

well you cant no ?

next wedge
#

i hit my sim number on vorasius and i still got 37 parse

fathom bramble
#

Yeah I guess you can’t

#

Unless you find an old screenshot

vivid vessel
#

ye

fathom bramble
#

Either way we are def very bad rn

vivid vessel
#

well i found an old one from 2025

image.png
fathom bramble
#

And crown mythic might be worse than dim

vivid vessel
#

i mean it seems hard to believe but

#

the best spec is litteraly 2x outlaw rn

#

its very noticeably the worse spec in the game

#

by like

#

20% lol

static crescent
#

okey i was wrong, no outlaw notes

heavy shadow
#

any m0 worth doing this week? for trinkets etc. I just got vessel from cavern

tired wolf
#

do we reliably spread wound poison in AoE through BF

vivid vessel
#

yes

#

rmemeber we are hard capped tho

tired wolf
#

think it might be worth it in maisara

vivid vessel
#

who thast

tired wolf
#

a dungy

remote pecan
tired wolf
#

apparently a ton of mobs in there just self heal constantly

vivid vessel
#

i dont think it should matter either

restive mango
#

there's something really nice about continuing to play a spec that is so obviously unloved. like the motive is pure

remote pecan
#

well at least in tww it was fun, now it's just, idk, even i dnt rly wanna play it atm

prisma lantern
fathom bramble
#

I’m just cooked @vivid vessel . None of my early loom kills was I that high

vivid vessel
#

ye you are

fathom bramble
#

Top 5 at most

vivid vessel
#

tww s3 was terrible

#

we have actual decent st rn

#
  • our st isnt tied to fatebound
#

it is but you get me

#

we play fatebound on every fight

#

and we dont lose prio

dapper badge
#

I miss your streams Loktark

vivid vessel
#

and that last boss is legit just st

#

so like

#

idk whats going on even

#

i guess downtime is just that bad for outlaw who would have known

#

not me

#

i thought removing uuh was the fix

#

the lied to me

#

who did that !

fathom bramble
#

I kept saying our feedback loop will always exist