That was the reality
#outlaw
proven ocean
short wharf
Wtf is going on in this chat 😭
proven ocean
Thats also the reason why they tuned down their difficulty
wintry solar
A debate, shh
proven ocean
Of the specs
fathom bramble
but none of this actually matters because outlaw was good on that fight
proven ocean
A spec so hard that rwf rogues cant play outlaw because they dont play it 24/7 is just bad design
fathom bramble
and the things that made us good are not present in the current state of the game
cinder relic
Outlaw was the better spec on soul hunters. No rogue in Na was practiced on outlaw, and it didn't really matter
proven ocean
Ya didnt matter much
cinder relic
The exact same could be said for the first half of nerubar, and also shit like nexus princess
proven ocean
Super doable boss
cinder relic
Outlaw was just the best rogue spec on that fight
Did it matter? No
Did anybody swap? No
Did the outlaw players do better than the other 2 specs on that fight? Yes
quaint mauve
i feel kinda bad on 2 person, and 3 person cleave now
proven ocean
Idk
quaint mauve
like the council boss felt kinda meh when i did it yesterday
vivid vessel
nerfing bf to 30% have no impact
cinder relic
The times where outlaw is better, it's like 2-5%, and those gains don't exist when you aren't practiced and prepping it
proven ocean
Way more than anybody’s dps
In m+
he prob watched ur streams too zac idk if u checked tho
vivid vessel
its fine
we will continue to act like its unlucky tuning
every tier
and not htat our damage profile never improve / get worse every expac
proven ocean
It is unlucky tuning guy didnt say it isnt tho
cinder relic
What the fuck do u want me to say and do Zac lmfao
balmy topaz
Zac
vivid vessel
its unlucky tuning
cinder relic
The spec and class is tuned like shit again
vivid vessel
next tier we good
vivid vessel
what ape blind
proven ocean
The spec and class is tuned like shit again
@vivid vessel
proven ocean
Like
balmy topaz
what ape blind
How they took it away
vivid vessel
its unlucky
balmy topaz
To then
cinder relic
It literally is tuning
balmy topaz
Give it back
proven ocean
Do u want him to type it 10 more times
vivid vessel
yes
cinder relic
Are you stupid
vivid vessel
its tuning
balmy topaz
In 6 weeks
vivid vessel
every tier outlaw is tuned bad
cinder relic
U saying it sarcastically doesn't make a point
vivid vessel
1/3 chance but its the worse spec every tier its kinda unlcuky
cinder relic
It isn't tuned bad every tier
proven ocean
I mean it is what it is like bad tuning happens
proven ocean
Outlaw was a banger in s2 tww
cinder relic
I really like this thing you do where you ignore the tiers where outlaw is fine tuning wise
cinder relic
But when it's fine, and even, it's also still bad
balmy topaz
S3 DF was goated
cinder relic
Makes Ur "it's bad every tier comment" just a given when this is your definition
vivid vessel
I really like this thing you do where you ignore the tiers where outlaw is fine ...
ok i played 3 expac, in these 3 expac, outlaw was the raid spec twice
sub every other tier
cinder relic
So there's a difference between being bad, and being worse, and being equal to other specs
cinder relic
These are 3 different states
vivid vessel
but
cinder relic
Slightly worse, slightly better on a lot of fights
vivid vessel
why is it never the raid spec
is it cause of tuning
and why does it feel like it get worse every expac
proven ocean
Honestly zac
proven ocean
If u played bfa
long needle
vivid vessel
unlucky tuning every tier ?
vivid vessel
surely it cant be unlucky tuning every tier bro
proven ocean
Alot
wintry solar
I remember that
vivid vessel
surely the fact we keep losing niches
vivid vessel
and other specs gaining niches
cinder relic
Ur right the reason that rogues single target is shit is because of blade flurry being 30%
proven ocean
It was the most popular spec in bfa
vivid vessel
has an impact
cinder relic
Really smart
cinder relic
You are so fucking dumb it's unreal
vivid vessel
it cant be bad tuning every tier bro
cinder relic
IT'S NOT TUNED BADLY EVERY TIER
vivid vessel
you cant just be unlucky go next every tier
cinder relic
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT
vivid vessel
WHY IS IT NEVER THE RAID SPEC
WHY IS IT NEVER THE RAID SPEC
WHYU
ITS NOT JUST BAD TUNING
proven ocean
BECAUSE IT NEVER WAS
vivid vessel
EVERY TIER BRO
vivid vessel
TWICE IN 3 EXPAC
proven ocean
!
proven ocean
ok guys relax
vivid vessel
SURELY THERE IS MORE THAN TUNING
lime lake
cinder relic
IT LITERALLY IS TUNING DUMB FUCK
cinder relic
IF OUTLAW DID ACTUAL COMPETITIVE DAMAGE IT WOULDN'T MATTER
cinder relic
Your brain is so fucking fried from playing 1 spec
And having no actual understanding of the game
vivid vessel
i mean ok bro
vivid vessel
he started 
cinder relic
Hmm let's ignore all the time flatline specs have been competitive in raid because they are actually tuned properly
And then let's say "it's just tuning" as a smug sarcastic comment
vivid vessel
there is flatline and htere is outlaw but ok
cinder relic
Actual insanity
vivid vessel
also wtf are flatline specs
proven ocean
ngl tho guy has a point outlaw was decent in nerubar
i remmeber u gapping everyone in some bosses
and that was last expansion so
proven ocean
i mean u cant just prog outlaw tho
vivid vessel
idc a spec is fine
proven ocean
because u have to choose 1 only
vivid vessel
i wanna prog as something else than sub
proven ocean
sword or dagger
vivid vessel
for one tier
proven ocean
and more often than not, dagger is the best option
because it covers 2 specs and not 1
cinder relic
There is a difference between
Being bad
Being slightly worse
Being about the same
Outlaw in mfo was bad
Outlaw in undermine was slightly worse
Outlaw in nerubar was about the same
In nerubar, there were fights, where outlaw was just better
vivid vessel
because it covers 2 specs and not 1
so my point is valid, its more than just unluckyt tuning xd??
cinder relic
Did it ever matter? Literally no
If you were an outlaw player, did you outperform the other specs? Yes
proven ocean
so my point is valid, its more than just unluckyt tuning xd??
from you replying to my msg ur stating that blizzard shouldn't force outlaw to use swords
and be able to use daggers too
cinder relic
If the bar for being "the prog spec" is just does everybody have to craft a sword, the answer is generally no
proven ocean
or like wdym exactly
cinder relic
Even when it is better, like in vault, most ppl played sub still
It was worse on every fight
vivid vessel
from you replying to my msg ur stating that blizzard shouldn't force outlaw to u...
i mean i have been saying multiple time that making outlaw be able to use daggers would help its raid viability
cinder relic
Was sub still the prog spec that tier?
proven ocean
i doubt that in blizzard HQ they are like OMG LETS MAKE OUTLAW BAD FOREVER
patent lion
i mean i have been saying multiple time that making outlaw be able to use dagger...
very based 
proven ocean
im down for outlaw to get daggers it aint wrong
patent lion
I mean, I'd go one step further though and argue poisons should be normalized somehow and make all the rogue specs able to use 1h as well
but that's probably a bit magma take
fathom bramble
mostly outlaw is good when the tuning is there and there is a ST fight with 100% uptime
vivid vessel
I mean, I'd go one step further though and argue poisons should be normalized so...
unlucky we havbe a new thing that wont allow us 1h on off hand now
tho its off hand who cares
patent lion
unlucky we havbe a new thing that wont allow us 1h on off hand now
yeh kinda cringe
vivid vessel
yeh kinda cringe
ye its hwatever tho
irreelvant now that we can trasnmog daggers to swords
not even mad
patent lion
yeah I just think the weapon locking is weird
fathom bramble
outside of the limited tiers where a council fight even exists and actually had BF tuning line up with it we tend to just be good on the fights that don't pressure our weaknesses
patent lion
like casters get int swords and offhands and 2h staff
and rogue is just xd dagger or one singular slow weapon
which is just whack imo
fathom bramble
since unlike sub/sin we don't have a clear strength that would make you bring the spec
vivid vessel
outside of the limited tiers where a council fight even exists and actually had ...
you are saying there is more to it than straight tuning ??
no wae !
fathom bramble
so it comes down entirely to just having good ST tuning and not too many fights that obliterate us
vivid vessel
cant be true
cinder relic
Keep saying that comment it makes u sound very smart
fathom bramble
you are saying there is more to it than straight tuning ??
I mean if blizzard tuned the game properly they would account for these
the fact that they don't is literally bad tuning
vivid vessel
Keep saying that comment it makes u sound very smart
why you attacking me bro
cinder relic
Because you deserve it
fathom bramble
like look what they did with marks
patent lion
idk bout him deserving it really
proven ocean
zac'
fathom bramble
they actually shipped aspect like that in a tier with a ton of 2 target
and had to emergency tackle it
proven ocean
zac's ragebait capabilities is reaching celestial levels
patent lion
zac says plenty of 
hollow dragon
👀
vivid vessel
the fact that they don't is literally bad tuning
i mean
patent lion
but like, he doesn't deserve attacks idk
proven ocean
tbf tho
cinder relic
They literally do
vivid vessel
so your spec need to have actual niches
proven ocean
outlaw's been always on the lower side
it just somehow happened to be fine sometimes
proven ocean
i mean
most of high end prog requires high dps on specific points and niche that outlaw doesn't really offer
fathom bramble
but it would be nice if we didn't have so much to overcome
cinder relic
most of high end prog requires high dps on specific points and niche that outlaw...
Yes but there have been strong, flat like, progression specs in the past
vivid vessel
honestly from my pov its just class design
so you are littteraly agreeing with me bro
proven ocean
so you are littteraly agreeing with me bro
cinder relic
Frost is almost entirely Flat and is one of the best dps in the raid rn
fathom bramble
the problem with flat damage is that it isn't a strength, it is nearly always a weakness. it ends up causing you to need fights that don'
don't press on that weakness
that actually line up with a period where you are tuned well
to be king
cinder relic
That's happening with Frost mage right now!
river wing
the problem with flat damage is that it isn't a strength, it is nearly always a ...
yeah because if they tune it to be good even when burst is required
it's just gapping everyone on non-burst fights
fathom bramble
there's also a difference between like normal flat
vivid vessel
how lucky for frost mage players
fathom bramble
and outlaw feedback loop
vivid vessel
wish it would happen to me !
proven ocean
honestly frost mages historically had bad class design
similar to outlaw
idk if its good now but
it was quite similar
river wing
honestly frost mages historically had bad class design
yes, starting with their existence, I agree
fathom bramble
yeah because if they tune it to be good even when burst is required
it's just ga...
it should
burst specs get to gap everyone on burst fights
wide dune
A spec that needs full uptime and deals flat dmg cannot be balanced on all the fights of a raid. Depending on tuning, it's either broken on some fight or unplayable on others. Both can even be true at the same time. Makes committing to outlaw a bad choice from a prog perspective. That's a design problem which, imo, will never be fixed by tuning.
vivid vessel
yeah because if they tune it to be good even when burst is required
it's just ga...
why shouldnt it gap specs on non burst fights lol ??
river wing
why shouldnt it gap specs on non burst fights lol ??
it should
but blizz won't see it that way
vivid vessel
i go on dimensius or last boss this tier and im litteraly tank damage
so why shouldnt i do good on fractilus
cinder relic
it was quite similar
It's very similar to outlaw in the sense that nobody plays Frost, so even when it's better, ppl don't bother cuz the difference usually doesn't matter
fathom bramble
A spec that needs full uptime and deals flat dmg cannot be balanced on all the f...
2 charges of AR could help a lot 🙂
vivid vessel
It's very similar to outlaw in the sense that nobody plays Frost, so even when i...
ok but
im a one trick outalw
if outlaw is better i would play it
how come i cant play it
legit 90% of times
cinder relic
Because it's undertuned
cinder relic
Keep making the same stupid sarcastic comment
wintry solar
Actually if I hear it one more time I might agree
vivid vessel
so i can play a real spec in raid
wide dune
2 charges of AR could help a lot 🙂
Yeah. Anything to make the spec burstier and less depending on uptime is good.
Having a big CD outside of the CDR loop could be a good thing.
river wing
lowrolled again
join the "blizz tune outlaw with RtB rolls with no SoH" conspiracy theory, we're always glad to see new people
fathom bramble
Yeah. Anything to make the spec burstier and less depending on uptime is good.
H...
the issue with that approach to me is that while it would help us, it would kind of remove a portion of what makes outlaw fun and unique
vivid vessel
actually i might have to tune up in raid with 2 vet dagger its unlucko
fathom bramble
I prefer solutions that maintain outlaw identity while also helping us
cinder relic
The spec should just be stronger
fathom bramble
like giving us execute or something
balmy topaz
actually i might have to tune up in raid with 2 vet dagger its unlucko
Wdym
Just do m0
Ez
balmy topaz
i cant drop a dagger bro
Skill issue
fathom bramble
they could also just tune around our weaknesses so we get to shine on some fights even if others destroy us
wide dune
I prefer solutions that maintain outlaw identity while also helping us
Then make outlaw ranged
river wing
like giving us execute or something
ngl I wonder why crackshot didn't survive, just put it into AR instead of vanish, like 3 charges of full BtE recharge
fathom bramble
like as it stands even if outlaw was overtuned it would require a very specific raid to let us be best on every fight
vivid vessel
like giving us execute or something
execute, let us be good at cleaving like we were in tww, 2 charges of adr, and let us wear daggers main hand
then i can see it
fathom bramble
and I do feel that indicates something is wrong somewhere
vivid vessel
and I do feel that indicates something is wrong somewhere
you mean there is more than just tuning
interesting
proven ocean
if u look at initial crackshot
vivid vessel
proven ocean
it was a huge burst of dmg
fathom bramble
yeah I already said it's both
proven ocean
and it was consistent burst dmg that came every few seconds
fathom bramble
if u look at initial crackshot
zero agency is definitely not helping
crack was actually good for that
especially with 2 charges
vivid vessel
till it got deleted
proven ocean
and not only that like outlaw's tuning has been getting worse
vivid vessel
cause timmy didnt like doing world quests
with crackshot
gg !
at least removing craskhot fixed outlaw issues in raid !
proven ocean
i mean thats just cooked tho idk why they removed problems that were solved
vivid vessel
wiat wdym nothing changed
fathom bramble
Then make outlaw ranged
makign us mid ranged would probably fix a lot of the problems we incur from downtime
vivid vessel
something changed right
fathom bramble
but again
fluid meadow
this rng proccs are better then crackshot cuz we know when we get them lolzfvgbfdkjbdf
fathom bramble
spec identity
proven ocean
do u agree
fathom bramble
you make us ranged it nukes any spec identity we had from orbit
proven ocean
the spec had issues
vivid vessel
makign us mid ranged would probably fix a lot of the problems we incur from down...
what about
vivid vessel
3 yard
proven ocean
unfixed alot of them
vivid vessel
i could go with only 3 yard
proven ocean
for no reason
vivid vessel
idk about you
fathom bramble
yeah I could go for 3 yrd
vivid vessel
ye 3 yard is good
fathom bramble
at this point I would even take 2
vivid vessel
lets pitch that idea
river wing
spec identity
ngl we already have like half a kit for ranged, it just requires the melee half to function
vivid vessel
i mean you can barely go ranged rn tho
i liked having 3 stacks of fth
you could bank them for downtime
with crackshot
fathom bramble
I wish we were a little more mixed like when you could crack out from ranged
but not full ranged even though it would fix things
it just wouldn't be law anymore to me
river wing
well it doesn't function without melee ATM yeah
because it all has to have melee synergies like Zero In and only melee regening energy
wintry solar
Unfun
river wing
I didn't even play when (the good) Acro was a thing
and I wish I had
wintry solar
Missed out
fathom bramble
there was a period where dispatch was actually named run through and had an extra 3 yards
which stacked with acro
you could stab MW monks from outside their knockback circle
vivid vessel
wtf bro
river wing
lmao 11y finisher
fathom bramble
it was great
river wing
yes?
wintry solar
Yeah
vivid vessel
what did i do to deserve this
wintry solar
Play outlaw
river wing
bro this is Rogue in a nutshell, I've been looking through Rogue's history for a year, the class is legit in the dumpster in terms of what it gets and what gets taken away
wintry solar
You can go back to Legion and after and you'll see how much cool stuff we're missing out on.
I do that a lot actually
fathom bramble
I mean look at legion
nmearly all of the cool stuff we have ever had was just legion
or returned to the game after legion
only really shadowlands brought stuff that doesn't land in that category
Iguess some stuff was kind of inspired by legion stuff and not a direct rip
like blunderbuss that then became fan the hammer
fathom bramble
though I think the way blunderuss, opportunity, and GSW interacted was much cooler in legion than it ever was again
cinder relic
nmearly all of the cool stuff we have ever had was just legion
Despite rogue being in a shit spot, but I do think there's a lot of cool stuff in modern rogue still. Especially outlaw
wintry solar
Like what?
cinder relic
Deft, fan the hammer, new rtb, I like kir a lot, I'm partial to new ks but I get the hate for it, I like supercharger, I like 7cp
For sub I think secret technique is just a much cooler version of dfa
fathom bramble
honestly I'm still kind of split on fan the hammer
but I do agree that we have a lot of cool stuff still
just that most of it came from legion and not all of it stayed
vague cape
honestly I'm still kind of split on fan the hammer
I think I slightly preferred when it generated more cp, still cool though
river wing
I'm still huffing copium that the current things are just a holding pattern and we'll see a proper assa design at the very least next expac
vague cape
Never forget dreadblades, sub stole it xd
cinder relic
Most specs are still very much designed around the shells made from legion, broadly speaking
fathom bramble
true
wintry solar
Never forget dreadblades, sub stole it xd
Sub is combat now so they stole that too
cinder relic
I mean look at demo lol
sly ermine
I just miss BFA outlaw when they introduced m+ - no target cap and u went 2x outlaw with a ww monk and u went brr brr
zinc briar
should i craft dagger? im doubting about playing assa/subt if outlaw becomes the worst dps... 🙁
river wing
pre-Legion demo was just deleted to make space for DH
hate DH ngl, never should've been a player class
vague cape
I still think we can do so much more with outlaw design
river wing
I still think we can do so much more with outlaw design
make that "Rogue design" honestly
vague cape
HO as a playstyle got kneecapped with vanish’s removal from restless blades
wintry solar
Im coping Midnight is just a template for the classes
vague cape
make that "Rogue design" honestly
The other specs don’t have outright dead capstones functionally the same was law does
cinder relic
It very much is
fathom bramble
The other specs don’t have outright dead capstones functionally the same was law...
it would not surprise me if this is simply due to not having the time
river wing
The other specs don’t have outright dead capstones functionally the same was law...
honestly Assa is kinda just lacking in design atm, like it needs something to work towards instead of just doing the same build-spend but slow
fathom bramble
midnight class changes were A LOT
and there is clearly more to iterate on that isn't just mistakes
wintry solar
I don't trust them to do wide sweeping changes to every spec again
vivid vessel
The other specs don’t have outright dead capstones functionally the same was law...
ok but 90% of sub nodes are legit doing nothing
just
xd does more damage
daring nacelle
!ui
ornate heathBOT
Resources:
ArcUI / BetterCDM - common suites for buff/cd customization
WangBar - displays CPs/energy, customize colors per point, faster than Sensei
MSUF - recommendation for unit frames
Platynator - recommendation for nameplates (Jundies Profile)
Misc:
Clickable Raid Buffs - for poisons
WilduTools - random QoL like melee range indicator, track cursor
Mute Cold Blood sound - if we ever go back to this talent
vivid vessel
sub might have the least interesting tree out of all classes in the game im ngl
zinc briar
@vivid vessel what should i do? craft dagger or sword?
vivid vessel
idk dont ask me
crafts depends on too many things
that are personal
to your guild rank
river wing
sub might have the least interesting tree out of all classes in the game im ngl
I mean it's the most basic spec design possibly
"just burst in burst windows bro, then do whatever in downtime"
like it has the default design for a DPS in many ways - the way its AoE is designed, the way its burst is designed, etc
I might be affected by FFXIV-vision where basically every melee DPS is a bit Sub-like in that regard, with circular PBAoEs and burst CDs and build-spend gameplay basics
zinc briar
i want outlaw but seems that gonna be so bad vs assa
fathom bramble
xd does more damage
I actually did not realize just how goofy some if twas
they have 5% magic damage
and then 8% shadow damage right after it
vivid vessel
bro
its every node
legit
idk what sub tree is
i mean thye are happy about it i guess idk
fathom bramble
there's a few in here that are cool though
river wing
it's better than it used to be in TWW I guess???
fathom bramble
or result in meangingful effects that can be noticed
vivid vessel
YOOO what if you take 5% increased finisher damage over 8% shadow damage bro !!!
fathom bramble
but like 70% of our nodes have a meaningful effect that can be noticed so
it's a pretty big difference to compare
idk how the average spec looks right now maybe sub is normal
and we are weird
river wing
ehh most specs I've seen do have lots of interactions in talents
fathom bramble
I would say about 8 of our nodes don't really do anything that could be noticed
maybe 9 or 10 if you push it
of hte 44 nodes in the tree
which isn't to say they don't have gameplay effects
just that with damage numbers off you could not tell if this is talented or not
fathom bramble
its every node
they really do just have crescendo of violence like 14 times
"thing you were going to hit anyway hits harder"
vivid vessel
told you bro
but i think they are having a blast with it
i always see them having intense tc discussion
about 5% builder damage vs 8% cuckholder damage
sounds fun
fathom bramble
my bad 20 times
I actually bothered to count it
I mean if the rotation you are actually playing is fun in the end
whatever works for you ig
river wing
I mean if the rotation you are actually playing is fun in the end
idk about that
but IG it's not that different from old sub
fathom bramble
I mean fun for whoeveri s playing it
obviously I wouldn't say it's fun for me or anything
0 procs always make it feel like nothing is happening
I need x resets y or I can't play the spec
river wing
ye
vivid vessel
i like this current version
or well the tww one
cause you have the finisher proc lok
you just need to ignore that its a buff that can be tracked
zinc briar
should i use versa flask if i have 24% haste?
fathom bramble
sub was at its most fun when you generated combo points randomly from casting other spells including finishers
river wing
I could just about like old Assa despite it being rather static, but it was more frantic in M+ and I liked that
right now tho, Outlaw's the only spec for me
fathom bramble
it's not the same
vivid vessel
i do that
i mean
i put ace sound on it
and i dont track the buff
and i legit cant see the diff bro
theorically its every 2nd finisher
but like
you dont think much about it
and its just a proc
fathom bramble
no I need like
vivid vessel
you prefer that it was rng cp gen ?
fathom bramble
idk
vivid vessel
idk
fathom bramble
a real thing
vivid vessel
i mena
you dont actually need to track it tho
like its not a gain to do so
so
its real to me
same shit in tww
you didnt need to track the refund
so it was also a real proc to me
i just play it as a proc
fathom bramble
like if they had a 2nd generator that had a cooldown that could be reset by casting backstab/shadowstrike
fathom bramble
yeah prob not
I mean I didn't track this in TWW and I get what your saying
I just don't think it's enough for me to actually have fun playing it for an extended period of time
vivid vessel
ye i mean
fathom bramble
and it doesn't need to be
vivid vessel
its not enough for sure
fathom bramble
not every spec needs to be law
vivid vessel
they do dance sec tech
so they can press both at the same time
and not lose dance uptime
you just wait for gcd and go
fathom bramble
yeah that makes sense since they kind of aim for a very precise amount of haste that needs no gaps
balmy topaz
I’ve seen people with like 6 dances on their bar
vivid vessel
like coup bp ?
fathom bramble
like normally you can't do this
fathom bramble
but because of how coup is coded you can
like it's whatever
but it's against what macros are suppose to be allowed to do
vivid vessel
just be a nromal human being and track coup
idk why sub players always try to remove the fun out of their spec
must be a condition
fathom bramble
I mean it's fine
manic ice
yall remember that bribe ability? that was fun
fathom bramble
I more meant that it shouldn't work from the perspective of how blizz intends macros to function
not that it was a broken thing they need to remove
vivid vessel
It’s troll anyway
ryldd
random stirrup
hello
random stirrup
there are so many which u mean
vivid vessel
im solving a puzzle mid pull ..
random stirrup
go next reset beg for guidon
random stirrup
idk why sub players always try to remove the fun out of their spec
Have you seen the number of sub parses
It was higher than ret pala
They are coming in droves because it got out that it’s 2 buttons now
vivid vessel
xddd
i know right
@random stirrup is it onyl in lust that you do the cringe thing
it is right
vivid vessel
random stirrup
yes
vivid vessel
wait i dont understand
random stirrup
we press our nice dance tech macro and then we strike, if it doesn’t proc aa strike again (it will almost always proc aa)
you only really end up forcing it on pull with pre supercharger
vivid vessel
fuck
i actually need to track it then
or what
no i just have to have 5 sht after my builder right
vivid vessel
well
its not about how bad it is to track it
more so that tracking it remove the fun of reacting to the proc
ok i played sub 5 min on dummies
random stirrup
just use a weakaura to only track it if supercharge is up 
vivid vessel
i think i play the spec perfectly now
vivid vessel
just use a weakaura to only track it if supercharge is up <:garf:132017303274389...
cant do that
actually
i think i could
ye
i can
interesting
i wont do it tho its annoying
interesting that you could actually do that
i do wonder how much you can do rn with hooking up to the cdm
what a failure from our favorite devs at the blizzard company !
random stirrup
you said the incoming hotfix isn’t going to brick much righ
vivid vessel
i think so ye
random stirrup
I heard people saying Arcui was gonna go boom
vivid vessel
i think it doesnt touch any of the cdm skinners
idk maybe arcui isnt an actual cdm skinner
i thought it was
if it just moves the icons around i dont think it ever matters
zinc briar
@vivid vessel are u crafting sword with your main?
vivid vessel
no
zinc briar
dagger?
vivid vessel
oh ye sure that part im unsure
like the additional non cdm things
im unsure about
but i havent seen anyone panick so idk
random stirrup
And you can track stuff that isn’t in cdm like pots and trinkets
I don’t want to lose that
vivid vessel
ye
maybe you do :D
right before raid
you wake up
half your ui bricked up
massive cocka in middle of the screen
gg
go next
jolly geyser
Just put pots and trinkets on a small action bar in that case
vivid vessel
also what do you guys think about the fact that
one of the things blizzard didnt like about raid addons were like
"puddle", "run away", "spread"
sounds or whatever
but you can do that wiht their private auras byg design
- big wigs etc can rename bars anyway and will always be able to
jolly geyser
vivid vessel
+ big wigs etc can rename bars anyway and will always be able to
and on things that always happen at a timer for everyone
like say orbs on drake boss
can very much do a circle that says spread while its happening
or before its happening
and you will always be able to do that
random stirrup
+ big wigs etc can rename bars anyway and will always be able to
showing up to raid with my totally not a wa raid pack and my totally not mrt noted preplanned cds and my totally not private trinket and pot cooldown tracker
good thing we did all this work to break the game
vivid vessel
:D
vivid vessel
i like how bosses are very different
from waht they were in tww
the soak mechanic on paladin boss could have never happened in tww ! we would have had a weak aura to tell us which one to soak ! (no)
random stirrup
Idk they show they can make banger bosses that aren’t solved by wa like NK and dimensius
vivid vessel
i jknow right
random stirrup
not sure why they explode the game instead of just doing that again
vivid vessel
not sure why they didnt just restrict seeing others stuffs and removing communication from addons
that would ahve been more than fine
pastel cloud
big noob question, best trinkets from dungeons?
random stirrup
I usually like alts and I still have yet to do a point of damage on a spec that isn’t sub
I logged into outlaw and there were so many more buttons and buffs to set up 
I gave up
random stirrup
real ones know that you don’t need to set up anything but sub for raid anyway
livid pewter
if anyone still looking for a good CDM manager addon -> this is all you need for basic stuff
https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons/ayijecdm
livid pewter
it took me some hours, but i swapped off from arcui since it takes way more resources than ayijecdm & also looks way more stable
vivid vessel
its less buggy ye
vague cape
xd does more damage
hey it summons naruto shadow clones, meanwhile outlaw just goes full america
vivid vessel
cant even see them
idk
every sub talent is just invisible damage
its a tree for sim nerds only
!ui
ornate heathBOT
Resources:
- ArcUI / BetterCDM - common suites for buff/cd customization
- WangBar - displays CPs/energy, customize colors per point, faster than Sensei
- MSUF - recommendation for unit frames
- Platynator - recommendation for nameplates (Jundies Profile)
Misc: - Clickable Raid Buffs - for poisons
- WilduTools - random QoL like melee range indicator, track cursor
- Mute Cold Blood sound - if we ever go back to this talent
zinc briar
@vivid vessel im sad, why dont u craft sword? are u thinking about playing assa/subt?
vivid vessel
yes lol
zinc briar
Sadge 
balmy topaz
Honestly
Crafting swords
In HoF
Is full on brickage
God knows what these 2 others bosses will be like
zinc briar
Guys i have 24% haste, what flask should i use for raid?
Haste flask will be so much?
balmy topaz
Guys i have 24% haste, what flask should i use for raid?
Sim it
Just quick sim and change the flask bro
balmy topaz
25%
vivid vessel
@quartz magnet @balmy topaz updated the gcd tracker btw cause i forgot other specs existed and hte way i tracked cps for other specs didnt work
where is world boss btw i need to test something with lag
but i already done it
and does he have a name even
vivid vessel
well only one active a week no ?
blissful idol
ez cata charge
fast geyser
Hello Zac, I used your Ayije CDM profile. When using the Outlaw CDM profile, everything works fine. But when I switch to the Subtlety profile, after the buffs expire, their icons still remain (like Slice and Dice, Shadow Dance). Have you encountered this issue on your end?@vivid vessel
jolly geyser
ez cata charge
gz
fast geyser
thank you😄
trim harbor
is vessel of tortured soul viable on outlaw i saw from one source it was really good and on the other it was mid
dusk spindle
how is outlaw in raid compared to sub/sin
balmy topaz
<@429711879481589770> <@168852450835562496> updated the gcd tracker btw cause i ...
I’ll download that later tyty
trail scaffold
Do you people play around zero in? I feel like bte is just not hitting hard if u don’t have 20 stacks 😅 can’t get over 40k dps
vivid vessel
no
i mena spending them all at once or little by little is the same tho
you holding bte for max stacks or what
thats not good
trail scaffold
Shouldnt u use bte on max stacks?
vivid vessel
no i just told you you sahouldnt do that
trail scaffold
So what stacks u suppose to hit bte? I thought it should Be on 6 and above
jolly geyser
is vessel of tortured soul viable on outlaw i saw from one source it was really ...
its good but might get you killed and the things are hard to see sometimes
trail scaffold
Aha man i thought u meant combo points 😅 forgot I asked about zero in
Well no, i don’t hold for 20 stacks zero in.
vivid vessel
So what stacks u suppose to hit bte? I thought it should Be on 6 and above
you mean combo ppoints
yes
6 or aboe
trim harbor
its good but might get you killed and the things are hard to see sometimes
get me killed? like from picking up souls
jolly geyser
ye
trim harbor
oh okok noted
jolly geyser
makes you think
unique fulcrum
with which settings are u guys simming dungeon/m+ dmg
jolly geyser
dungeon slice
blissful idol
is it worth rushing the new 4 set even on champ track items cause of the new achievement?
vivid vessel
yes i think it doesnt matter
next week you farm m+ and drop charges on cd prolly
idk if there is no limit there is really no point holding i think ?
soft abyss
yeah even on lfr vet gear you do it
balmy topaz
I’ve got full LFR 4 set
blissful idol
i havent looted 1 item from entire lfr + normal
balmy topaz
As in I’ve already got 1600
blissful idol
hopefully heroic is better tonight
balmy topaz
And games above 1600 seem to drop cata charges
worldly shale
Ok did anyone do the ?? shithead with outlaw?
soft abyss
Guys waht is the opener now in raid ? I have seen many discussions of yours. Is one specifically better than the rest? Like snd or dispatch kir or keep for prep etc
old gull
Ok did anyone do the ?? shithead with outlaw?
Got him to 5% a couple times and he just whacked me for all my hp. Will get him down later. The add phase is a little spicy that’s it really
worthy surge
I got fabled with outlaw
long barn
is it worth rushing the new 4 set even on champ track items cause of the new ach...
What’s the achievement do
twin steeple
Outlaw needs 12.0.5 Crimson Vial changes to survive solo content
worthy surge
What’s the achievement do
makes it so catalysts start dropping from content
twin steeple
What’s the achievement do
"Infinite" catalyst charges once you acquire 4set on any of your characters
worldly shale
Got him to 5% a couple times and he just whacked me for all my hp. Will get him ...
Ye i only tried like twice, got him to 60% and he whacks me
balmy topaz
Outlaw needs 12.0.5 Crimson Vial changes to survive solo content
????
This isn’t true
Either that or you’re running cheat death
left jay
Outlaw needs 12.0.5 Crimson Vial changes to survive solo content
which solo content are you doing that you think this would be necessary for?
wide tendon
Zac are u an uhuh enjoyer or hater
left jay
if it is delves, try switching valeera to healer and using tricks of the trade on her
wide tendon
The whole playstyle rework from s3 df
left jay
with that you can do 11 delves at ilvls as low as 240
wide tendon
Or u prefer this slower less ar uptime
vivid vessel
Zac are u an uhuh enjoyer or hater
idk about uuh but i really liked ace and crackshot gameplay
solemn karma
That crimson vial change won’t do anything at max level anyway
left jay
crackshot was the goat
vivid vessel
idc that much about uuh but i prefered having more uptime on adr yes
left jay
my favourite talent of all time mayhaps
dim widget
idc that much about uuh but i prefered having more uptime on adr yes
yes me too
it also feels ass still having arbitrary haste cap for adr with less total adr uptime
vivid vessel
uuh itself was pretty toxic tho i have talked a number of times how it should have been fixed
dim widget
crackshot was the goat
also miss crackshot 🙁
crackshot and 90% adr is what made outlaw unique imo
now we are just yellow fury
smh
left jay
nah man
I prefer Outlaw from the last two expansions
but this version of Outlaw is still really fun
twin steeple
Pressing same button many times in a row = classic gameplay
vivid vessel
have they
vivid vessel
now rtb is just a maintainance buff with 0 gameplay
slim hare
I think current version is fun but ace is shit and should give 5-6 combo point it will be even better
dim widget
Pressing same button many times in a row = classic gameplay
idk, for me dopamine hits diff with crackshot. classic is press 1 every 2 seconds, but outlaw is actual high apm reactive
twin steeple
idk, for me dopamine hits diff with crackshot. classic is press 1 every 2 second...
Classic combat rogue 1sec gcd
slim hare
rtb + cto + kir was just peak rtb gameplay imo
Was fun but maybe a bit too much for most people
dim widget
but thats fine
dim widget
lock, bm and ret exist for those ppl
let us be the autists pls
its not like rogue is played more now (valeera doesnt count)
wide tendon
If its too much for you
Lo and behold 30 specs in the game
Let outlaw be turbo fast
Ty
dim widget
yes
vivid vessel
its not like rogue is played more now (valeera doesnt count)
sub seesm quite popular rn
dim widget
word
slim hare
idc about that cuh
I'm not your cuh, cuh. I'm your fellow countrymen, you know the one who enjoy good food
vivid vessel
i think its cause its so simple
dim widget
sub seesm quite popular rn
compared to law and sin
vivid vessel
new bm hunter
dim widget
compared to other classes?
vivid vessel
compared tro other classes
dim widget
how many parses actually
vivid vessel
wide tendon
Arms kekw
vivid vessel
top 8 spec
dim widget
20k WHAT
vivid vessel
ye
slim hare
Damn that's a lot compared to the usual no?
vivid vessel
tho when you look at normal its a lot less so idk
its more liked by more high end players i guess
dim widget
it makes sense, sub is historically the go to prog rog
vivid vessel
the main bms in mythic guilds
wide tendon
Xddd
slim hare
So in normal we are less played than evoker? Nice
slim hare
No wonder they dont want to help any rogue spec
dim widget
the average rogue player is more likely to be in hc/mythic guild than other classes is what i would assume
not because we are "better" but ambitions are higher
and few ppl play rog compared to other classes, so its easier to get into guilds maybe? idk
mint ether
i'm not sure ambitions is necessarily the right way to phrase it
but for a long time, rogue was reliably the best melee DPS class for raiding
so a lot of players who wanted to join and progress in higher end guilds got attached to rogue as a main if they wanted to play melee
and there's probably some inertia there - lots of people swap classes, but lots of people also stay attached to mains
dim widget
also makes sense
mint ether
which I guess is related to ambition in a sense
quartz magnet
Hows the feeling with the vessel trinket? Is it just simbait or actually that good?
still matrix
Readin Guy message so our BIS is - Gaze then Plume/Insignia? or are they all kind of equal
keen belfry
Man seeing a rogue spec so highly played is kinda wild
People love their simple simple specs I guess
sour cedar
do we know if the Nexus Xenas ring set bonus is simming correctly? I just ran it against same ilvl rings and it was showing a few hundred dps loss
blissful idol
near rock
hipster spec moment
desert tendon
tho when you look at normal its a lot less so idk
crazy there are so many dk
it wasnt a popular spec at all before tww bullshit
also how is outlaw more played than assa 
sure assa might sucks, but still impressive data
copper radish
Did yall know you can move valeera with pings during a delve?
elfin tusk
Did yall know you can move valeera with pings during a delve?
You can? Do the different pings do different things? Or does she just go to the ping location?
copper radish
You can? Do the different pings do different things? Or does she just go to the ...
The one should move her location and the attack one should make her attack
Meanwhile she prob gonna pull everything in between the ping tho 😭
merry harness
Does anyone remeber how many champ crests you get from bounti delve?
merry harness
Don't have the rep sadly
vivid vessel
oh really
merry harness
Yeah hard stuck renown 3
copper radish
Nightmare prey ez to unlock just do all the hard mode
vivid vessel
Nightmare prey ez to unlock just do all the hard mode
nah there is something about
if you didnt do it week 1
or smth
copper radish
You get 1k rep per hard mode?
merry harness
But only first 4 per week no?
copper radish
Probably
vivid vessel
ye the ones on map
normal quail
bis lists online are cooked atm. These 2 are simming best for me on most heavy single target fights atm (except the raid trinks ofc). the warbanner listed as B/C tier.
that shit blasts
lime lake
But only first 4 per week no?
they recently fixed it
vivid vessel
lime lake
every hunt up to rank 4 should give 1k
vivid vessel
1k no ?
thin fiber
!up
ornate heathBOT
keen belfry
nasal tract
remote pecan
what crests for that track?
sudden narwhal
quick question, sorry if this has been asked. I haven't played outlaw for a few expansions and I wasn't sure by reading the wowhead guide: When we get Ace Up Your Sleeve procs, and it only refills like 3 combo points, do you just keep spamming BtE or do you build to 5 before using your BtE proc. it seems like there's very little time before the glow disappears to use it?
keen belfry
mucinex
keen belfry
quick question, sorry if this has been asked. I haven't played outlaw for a few ...
build to 6
6+
sudden narwhal
build to 6
ty
sudden narwhal
oh ok, I think i was used to the vanish bte spam from before
vivid vessel
blizzard just decided it would glow when it reset
tulip warren
When should I use Sinister Strike vs Pistol shot as a builder?
Or is it always when I got 6stacks of Opportunity and maybe when I have how many combo points its useful?
remote pecan
1-3cps or max stacks, there's an optimisation in the faq but dw about that yet
tulip warren
aa ye figured, so I guess its kinda almost always worth to pistol shot then?
gaunt phoenix
If you are at 3 stacks of opportunity, you use it when between 1-3 CPs, otherwise sinister strike
If you are at 6 stacks of opportunity, it always has priority over sinister strike
And then Blade flurry in aoe always has priority over them
sacred wolf
think it was brought up before but I forget, if youre at 5cp and BTE is off cd, do you SS to 7 or slam the Dispatch
primal oxide
is there any way to show - in text, which RTB stage i am, rather than only an icon?
mystic berry
bars?
keen belfry
think it was brought up before but I forget, if youre at 5cp and BTE is off cd, ...
build to 6+ and send bte
soft abyss
yeah as a tracked bar buff
primal oxide
kk thx
frail veldt
If you are at 3 stacks of opportunity, you use it when between 1-3 CPs, otherwis...
wait is this new?
gaunt phoenix
No?
frail veldt
I thought it was ss at 1cp with stage 2
vivid vessel
solo noob
gaunt phoenix
Thats the optimization
frail veldt
aaah okay gotcha gotcha
I thought it got simplified
im still getting used to that rule
feels so backwards
gaunt phoenix
It was established they can read the optimization when they understand the generic rule
mystic berry
whats the dps diff with the optimization again?
frail veldt
ye ye my b
gaunt phoenix
It was ~1% the last time i looked
mystic berry
ty
vivid vessel
HUGE
fiery timber
0x1=0
hasty warren
Hi pirates
bold anvil
Is rogue doing absolutely no dmg in raids or am i just bad
fiery timber
Outlaw is just Bad
bold anvil
But it's so smooth to play lol
potent latch
*boring
cinder relic
All 3 rogue specs are mid rn
fair topaz
What key level do we get myth crests? I've seen a list saying at lvl9 and another saying at lvl 7
ionic citrus
check chimaerus... king.. drakes..
Funny of you to question fucking forever without any solid proof.
ionic citrus
Is rogue doing absolutely no dmg in raids or am i just bad
Outlaw is doing good DMG when played well. Stick to dummy's until ur fingers hurt.
cinder relic
I'm confused
zinc briar
Funny of you to question fucking forever without any solid proof.
logs are not a proof?
ahm ok
unkempt dew
But we got a 4% buff
bold anvil
4%..
ionic citrus
Rogues ARE MID.
vivid vessel
unkempt dew
Damn
vivid vessel
litteralyt middest i have ever seen
unkempt dew
We are really mid
ionic citrus
Case closed. Next?
zinc briar
those are our best bosses
unkempt dew
Nice