#outlaw

1 messages · Page 680 of 1

mighty pivot
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owned na players EZ

gray summit
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guys do u use ur champions crest ?

final pagoda
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can someone tell me how bait is the vessels?

fathom bramble
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vers good

image.png
gray summit
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or u keep it ?

vivid vessel
gray summit
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for the release of mm+ ?

final pagoda
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I can get it now but not sure if worth it

gray summit
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ok thx buddy

vivid vessel
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its just to clear hc easier rn

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send them all

gray summit
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<3<3<3<

vivid vessel
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anyway

fathom bramble
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send all champ and just grind M+ next week until you replace all the champ gear anyway

vivid vessel
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heroic week is such a weird thing

mighty pivot
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@glass mortar favourite midnight delve?

vivid vessel
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idk if i like it or not

vivid vessel
gray summit
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ok i understand mm+6 give hero

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so we can spend

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easy

mighty pivot
keen belfry
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is that the mushroom one

vivid vessel
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whta

fathom bramble
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every grudge pit story is awful

vivid vessel
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no way you think tht one is good

fathom bramble
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atal'aman seems like the best one overall

keen belfry
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msuhroom one is so ass

vivid vessel
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the mushroom arena ?

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where you need to fight perma ?

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its litteraly the worse one bro

keen belfry
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zach kinda a beta

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zac*

mighty pivot
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zac doesn't like doing damage garf_sit

hoary otter
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okay guys, how realistic is it to pick souls constantly from Vessel of Tortured Souls trinket in raid?

fathom bramble
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sounds like hell

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0/10

mighty pivot
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not at all realistic

keen belfry
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yeah not worth

hoary otter
mighty pivot
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that trinket is the biggest sim bait in a while

hoary otter
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it really is, just wanted to confirm with others

mighty pivot
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it would be good if the stacks weren't asynchronous

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good in dungeons that is

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in raids I don't think it's redeemable

hoary otter
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and how is Alnseer looking after most recent nerfs? still bis?

clear turtle
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the chimareus trinket on the otherhand I think undersims, that things up all the time, and iwth the raid being almost entirely aoe is crazy stuff

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have an LFR version and it had 65% uptime and you stack it stupid fast great value longterm even on lower difficulties

static crescent
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idk, i said to my team mates that il play outlaw if it gets buffed

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here we go i guess

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might aswell been 1% buff

burnt dragon
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!fuu

ornate heathBOT
vivid vessel
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!atro

ornate heathBOT
vivid vessel
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@mighty pivot

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you were the one doing that sheet no ?

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get to work

light kernel
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is it better to go left drake or rightas melee in raid?

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right*

vivid vessel
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the one on the ground is easier for frontal positionement

mighty pivot
vivid vessel
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doesnt matter tho

vivid vessel
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cause i thgouth i got blasted kinda

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but turns out

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feint works on legit evertyhing no

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even the passive ticking damage

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that is perma ticking

mighty pivot
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I haven't checked that fight yet, but generally feint does work on ticking aoe damage yes

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except you know... energy

static crescent
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Anyone to able to say how to actually add Roll the Bones properly into Arcui, im set up outside of that Q_Q

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I just manage to add it as a cooldown

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Duration bar doesnt mention the buff

zinc briar
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so..

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time to craft for subt

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outlaw is gonna be the worst dps again in raid

river maple
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4% buff

zinc briar
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that 4% means that they dont give a fck about outlaw

mighty pivot
static crescent
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Thanks a bunch!

gray summit
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i think giving a generic buff aura just shows they really didn’t want to bother putting in any effort — it’s insulting.

cinder relic
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This is what they always do

gray summit
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i know, but they could think about some gameplay change

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i didnt remember if it with zac or you

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but bte 5cp+ in our rota

zinc briar
gray summit
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make senses

fathom bramble
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not likely on a heroic week tuning pass

gray summit
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i would love this gameplay

fathom bramble
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the only reasonable change they could have made that was actually likely is more bf %

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very very rare that talent tuning happens on a tuning pass like this unless something is really wrong

gray summit
fathom bramble
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I think it's pretty clear that ace reset should be 5 cp

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but those kinds of precise talent changes simply unfortunately don't happen on a pass like this

cinder relic
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^

glass mortar
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and the troll ones

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dont love the pathing of the voidstorm one and theres toxic eye mobs in alot of the stories but the one where u can just sky grapple everywhere is good

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there isnt really any i hate but none of them have hit the level of the gobo delve from tww yet

elder roost
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!fuu

ornate heathBOT
zinc briar
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how much dps% increase is out set?

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and how much subt set?

mighty pivot
cinder relic
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otl is around 4 sub is around 14

buoyant rampart
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Guys I've been on vacation how is it looking

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Are we (multi spec rogue players) cooked or what

fathom bramble
vivid vessel
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rogue is the worse class in the game

fathom bramble
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this image I believe covers it

buoyant rampart
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!grok tell me how to feel, think and act

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Thank you brother

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I'm rr lock when I'm home 😢

mighty pivot
keen belfry
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@mighty pivot did you have the numbers for the crit boost ring enchants

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They both say 1%

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What were actual numbers

mighty pivot
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0.75% and 1.25%

keen belfry
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Where u get that from

mighty pivot
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blizzard tooltips are something else

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spell data

lyric prism
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Sorry I have a dumb Outlaw rotation for everyone. If BtE is available, and im at CPs, is it best to Dispatch. Or do i SS to get to 6 for a BtE?

keen belfry
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Where is spell data

mighty pivot
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sec

keen belfry
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If you dispatch you are wasting cdr

mighty pivot
lyric prism
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Thank you. Thats what I've been doing but wasn't sure if it was worse ti potentially waste CPs

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Appreciate it!

fathom bramble
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lights vanguard

mighty pivot
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PC died for this

keen belfry
vivid vessel
fathom bramble
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it is what it is

vivid vessel
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wait isnt htat your mega geared one

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with x72 weapons

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i forgot what ilvl we aree at rn

fathom bramble
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I mean my main sims higher

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but yes

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I fucked up the opener though so it's doomed

vivid vessel
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bro ..

vivid vessel
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thats kinda insane no

fathom bramble
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yes

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panda diff

vivid vessel
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wtf is your main gear bro

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ah ye

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panda

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true

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show me gear

fathom bramble
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in raid on my alt rn

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can't do anything except tell you to check raider io

vivid vessel
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fuck you ..

glass mortar
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zac...

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why havent u liked mine and loktarks posts on the NA forums....

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we gotta get outlaw fixed zac.....

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they r reading it this time 100p

vivid vessel
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link it

leaden sonnet
glass mortar
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i linked it to u the other day zac.....

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u never read it

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u hate us...

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our content creators have truly lost all hope

glass mortar
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this time theyll read it guys......

vivid vessel
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i did read it i think

leaden sonnet
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Lets be real at best theyre just gonna toss another 3%er in .5 and call it a day, for any/all of the rogue specs garf

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Better luck next tier

gray summit
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i dont understand something

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why i only have 390 and not 400 crest

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oh

vivid vessel
gray summit
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i lost 10 for the quest

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its that ?

crisp elm
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wtf is that alleria shit after she phases

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wild

zinc briar
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62k of sim

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ooooooooooooomfg im gona destroy the boss with that 4%

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ill win tanks

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this is my moment

crisp elm
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so are crucible sims accurate now or is it bait?

zinc briar
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Dont know but if u want to know what outlaw damage is, i can tell you

cinder relic
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What

cinder relic
crisp elm
cinder relic
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also not bait

crisp elm
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fair enough

lilac lion
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Yeah i dont understand it... i sim Sunflare and Crucible and the haste trinket from Windrunner all 263 and every sim tells me Crucible and Sunflare... is it bait?

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My haste is without Flask on 25%

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So did i play Crucible and Sunflare right?

sand jewel
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How relevant is the 4% buff?

vivid vessel
crisp elm
vivid vessel
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does like 3% in sims, like 0.3% in my logs

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it is indeed cooked

crisp elm
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flare vs light company it is ig, im not gonna run it

vivid vessel
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!guide

ornate heathBOT
winter falcon
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Are we actually going to notice a 4% buff?

vivid vessel
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no

low glade
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this shit is so funny bro

fair iron
past sky
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!wa

ornate heathBOT
cinder relic
dark ember
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Wonder how the talents will change with new ace if at all

wintry solar
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I WILL remain positive with outlaw

hearty stump
wintry solar
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No doomer will bring me down to their level

hearty stump
fathom bramble
final pagoda
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What's our expected 4pc DPS gain?

fathom bramble
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4.8% on the fuu sheet

hearty stump
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!fuu

ornate heathBOT
fathom bramble
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I kind of hope they announce tier set bonus tuning before reset

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specs shouldn't have this massive of a difference ever

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even though I know a lot of previous tiers had it as well

final pagoda
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U mean the 12% on sub?

fathom bramble
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well that one and a few others

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I don't remember how many double digiters there are, but anything below 7% should probably be buffed

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really I just don't understand why/how such a large difference happens in the first place

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it shouldn't be rocket science to get all the tiersets to around the same target

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which means they either don't have a target or don't care if they miss it

vapid sundial
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I can only think its favortism

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personally

fathom bramble
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like remember SL legendaries how they had a ton of different effects and they were all within a couple % of 5%

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except that one druid legendary

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tiersets should be like

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all mostly clumped around a specific targetted %

vivid vessel
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Which one

fathom bramble
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vorasius

vivid vessel
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Nice

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Btw guys I have a question

fathom bramble
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wait not actually first

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because details doesn't work with evoker still

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and a dev evoker got 1st

vivid vessel
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Spiderman wear shoes, so how come he can stick to surfaces with shoes on

fathom bramble
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13.8% bombardments lol

vivid vessel
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His little spider thingies wouldn't go through shoes right

keen belfry
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thoughts?

vivid vessel
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Nice

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But answer my question awang

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It's important

keen belfry
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wjat was ir Q

fathom bramble
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wait there is no way this is an accurate number on the log right

image.png
keen belfry
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llok what was his Q

fathom bramble
vivid vessel
vivid vessel
keen belfry
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thats true

vivid vessel
keen belfry
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maybe his little pokers go thro his costume?

vivid vessel
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I mean trough his costume I believe it right

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But shoes

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That doesn't work

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I think they have some explaining to do

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They lied to us imo

keen belfry
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its american movie

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why u watch?

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french spiderman

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Toboui magquire

hearty stump
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bros got static electricity

vivid vessel
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That'd not true

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I have seen the movie

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He has little pokers

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You see them

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Very very little

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He stick to walls that way

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They just never explained the shoes bro..

livid smelt
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Soooo how do we feel about outlaw and starving for energy right now? XD

vapid sundial
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get haste

livid smelt
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Yeah im trying XD

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does it feel better when yo uget to 25%? im like 18% and i feel miserable sometimes

wintry solar
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In ST I stopped being starved at 19%

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AoE was whatever

quaint mauve
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anyone know how i moved these bigwig bars

image.png
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or get rid of them completely

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i cant seem to find an option to

tiny onyx
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Does anyone know the addon/tool that puts a "+" on your character

tulip vale
quaint mauve
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^

keen belfry
quaint mauve
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but these show up

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when im in a dg

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and i dont want them to

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i just want the normal bars

keen belfry
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Mhm click the test bar function button

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But maybe ur cooked?

quaint mauve
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i want the one in the center and to the right gone completely

Screenshot_2026-03-20_202231.png
quaint mauve
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idk

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ima do one more dungeon

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if i cant find fix

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bigwigs is going away

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and ima play with base blizz thingies

craggy barn
fathom bramble
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everytime there's a question like that the answer is almost always a "meta-power" that explains away the inconsistency

craggy barn
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well theres literal spider totem magic nonsense that dictate spider-person powers in marvel

fathom bramble
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like superman extending his biological field around objects he catches or carries

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to prevent them from obliterating

craggy barn
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sometimes u just gotta suspend that disbelief

frail veldt
frail veldt
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Does deadly pursuit not even have a buff?

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It doesnt seem to show up

fathom bramble
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hidden buff for the stacking

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when it is active there is a real buff

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idk if they even let you track it though

frail veldt
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not even seeing the active

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hmm

fathom bramble
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could have a clever WA to track it 🙂

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it's a KS icon, you should see it

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old KS icon

karmic night
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Hey, just coming back to rogue from along time away. Is outlaw just bugged to high heaven?

worthy surge
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no?

frail veldt
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prob the least bugs weve ever had

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why

karmic night
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Really? Because blade flurry doesn't seem to be working right in my experience

fathom bramble
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killing blows are not copied by BF if that's what you mean

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one of our few bugs

karmic night
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The single targets don't seem to proc the aoe

frail veldt
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it just falls off

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its not perma anymore

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oh yeah could bve that thing

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where if you kill a unit

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it wont aoe

fathom bramble
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love it when BTE crits for 200-300k in the open world

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and deals less damage total than it would have if it didn't crit

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because no cleave

wintry solar
worthy surge
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Does explain why I wasnt cleaving when I was farming mog yesterday lol

torpid fiber
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it was how they fixed dead bodies counting towards our target cap

fathom bramble
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they would have probably had to recode BF completely to fix it properly

keen belfry
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@nova sinew can u reply man

image.png
nova sinew
glass mortar
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@fathom bramble playing in alt raid this season and my RL made one of the bosses in this tier again

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funniest shit we are on our third wipe on herioc on it and he starts bitching about one of the mechanics

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dead silence for 5 seconds

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"bitch didnt you make this boss????"

grim spear
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The current state of WoW feels like it’s shrinking the actual design space while simultaneously trying to force in a kind of superficial diversity

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talents, hero talents, and apex

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a huge number of specs are being crammed into an increasingly tight box

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They’re already heavily homogenized, yet the game still insists on keeping them artificially distinct

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designers end up bending over backwards, and even then, a large portion of specs just end up feeling bad or underwhelming.

cinder relic
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what is bro sayin

grim spear
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Sometimes I think back to the first time I played a Rogue

wintry solar
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I get it

grim spear
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sneaking through packs of enemies in stealth, pickpocketing, sapping targets, chaining stuns

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and it all felt so distinct and unique

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Now those mechanics just feel like meaningless, outdated fluff.

cinder relic
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along side bad tuning

wintry solar
mystic berry
fathom bramble
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if BTE hits super hard it tends to oneshot open world mobs

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killing blows do not cleave with BF

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bug they introduced a few tiers ago and have not fixed

wintry solar
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Is it a bug? I thought it was a feature

mystic berry
wintry solar
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No BS

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Actually I vaguely remember hearing it was an unfortunate side effect.

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Because of the way it's codes or something

mystic berry
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so the optimal way is to swap targets if their hp gets too low?

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in case you do a big hit

grim spear
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after so many years of continuous iteration, there’s actually less and less that feels worth playing

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In the end, all that’s left is just playing Details.

daring oxide
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Outlaw saved?

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4% buff omega?

keen belfry
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All these classes feel like a game I’ve never played, in a bad way

daring oxide
near rock
keen belfry
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Oh shit vai is back

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Father!!

daring oxide
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Still busy leveling up my baby

keen belfry
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But basically vai, classes got gutted across the board and it feels like we are playing a whole new game. Like 2013 wow or something

daring oxide
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Dam

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I’m gonna play again when baby is able to attend to itself

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Hopefully by 6 months

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So 2nd tier

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Can’t wait to play outlaw HO

near rock
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congrats on the kid man, godspeed

wintry solar
daring oxide
wintry solar
#

Truke

keen belfry
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Your baby can play new outlaw, have their first word be adrenaline rush

daring oxide
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They’ll put something in the tier set like buffing ambush damage by 150%

daring oxide
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He almost said it

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Either that or boobies

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Well “booba” to be specific

keen belfry
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Just like me

daring oxide
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Did you make any more funny gifs so far this tier/expansion @keen belfry

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Need to add to my collection

keen belfry
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Hmm

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Do league gifs count?

wintry solar
keen belfry
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My cope is that we are just getting template specs rn

daring oxide
keen belfry
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So we can gain a lot more

wintry solar
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Yeah that's what I'm hoping

keen belfry
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I hear bm hunter is actually 2 buttons now

daring oxide
keen belfry
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I mean u should see what sub rogue is now vai

wintry solar
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Yeah it's not much better

keen belfry
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Sub rogue is a noob spec now

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It’s number 1 dps for 10th percentile

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Nbd

wintry solar
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I can handle an expac of baseline boring specs but only one.

keen belfry
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Same

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I don’t want to gear an alt

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Because all my alts are so borinf

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Fire mage man… what did they do to my beloved

craggy barn
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its 21 sheet haste right

wintry solar
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There should be a haste command

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!haste

ornate heathBOT
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A properly geared Outlaw's stat volume will look like Vers > Haste* > Crit > Mastery.

*But Haste has a **requirement ** because adr Adrenaline Rush scales your GCD based on haste, up to 25%.

The kir_charger KIR build wants ~19% haste from rating, so it becomes 25% after talents_alacrity Alacrity. 18% or 20% is close enough and not a problem. Don't play KIR with lower than 18% haste.

The ho_charger HO build gets takem Take 'em by Surprise, so its haste requirement is technically ~9%., but it continues to want haste just for energy. You will likely optimize towards 14-18% haste, not a strict number, just sim.

You need to use raidbots Raidbots Top Gear to determine what haste pieces to use. You can also get ~4.2% haste from a flask. This can be equal or better than Vers flask if you need it for either build.

wintry solar
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Oh well

craggy barn
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its still not updated lol

wintry solar
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I'd answer but idk

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I'm fighting for ilvl atm

wooden ember
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!ui

ornate heathBOT
wintry solar
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Crazy night

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Curious how many others feel the same

midnight granite
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doing dungeons with buddy and dh is hitting like 600k in aoe and I'm at fucking 200k if I'm lucky with jackpot and bte rng

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what is this class bro

elder crane
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which sigil is better? void or hunt

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i see a lot of ppl having hunt but guides says it's the void one

silk stirrup
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Outaw saved with the buff?

quaint mauve
daring yoke
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Hey guys. How big is the raid group you can play as outlaw before u start seeing delays in cp etc?

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I tried 30 man. It was pointless to play with the significant delay

thorny wedge
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think that depends on your computer

hasty warren
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and connexion

daring yoke
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I have a beefy computer and a wired 1gpbs. I feel like theres just abit delay from blizz side once u hv too many players 😭

hardy wigeon
#

rogue changes actually hilarious

steel lark
tired wolf
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isnt the delay kinda intentional since the abilities generating cp are staggered

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like double hit ss or pistol shot

tulip quarry
hasty warren
violet swan
fathom bramble
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There is also a delay on the apex just from projectile travel time

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That one will always happen regardless of lag and can be quite long on some of these bosses

steel lark
vivid vessel
fathom bramble
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there is also a massive difference between the normal delay and the extra delay we see from lag

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the lag delay can even somehow cause PS to consume more than 3 opp stacks

vivid vessel
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Ye I have seen that it's quite funny

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Btw lock

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Can SS second hit get parried

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But not first

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I feel like I had it happen once in raid last time

fathom bramble
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you can definitely have only 1 hit get parried

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and as I understand it I'm pretty sure 2nd hit getting parried will munch the combo point

vivid vessel
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Ye

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I swear it never happened to me before but could be unluck

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I get it's quite rare to even get parried so

fathom bramble
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SS use to give combo points regardless of if it got parried

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the 2nd combo point being tied to the hit makes it get lost now

vivid vessel
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Oh

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Ok lol

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No wonder it's the first time I see it

unkempt dew
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Woohoo 4% buff

daring yoke
quaint mauve
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im not getting any haste gear to drop

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i’ve been playing this game on actuall hard mode

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12% haste

daring yoke
vivid vessel
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It's slow

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In raid specially

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Because it's tied to bte projectile compared to normal ace procs

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So it needs the projectile to hit the boss

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On a big boss like second boss

balmy topaz
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Especially on 2nd boss

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If you’re max range

vivid vessel
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It will take forever

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:D

balmy topaz
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😄

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Snap

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The best way to describe the refund

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It works like hot streak on fire mage

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The projectile has to hit

vivid vessel
#

You mean the birds

daring yoke
vivid vessel
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Dogshit thing

hasty warren
balmy topaz
daring yoke
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Maybe i hv to pay attention to my frames. Maybe cpu is tanking. But gpu barely working

balmy topaz
#

It’s the same for fireball and pyroblast

hasty warren
vivid vessel
#

I remember playing a bit of fire

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And it's only the birds

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That are shit

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I guess they are slow

balmy topaz
vivid vessel
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I mean

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What

balmy topaz
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It’s only scorch and blast are instant

vivid vessel
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Oh ye but

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It's cause phoenix are not casts no that's its an issue

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I need to remember sait

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Wait

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Fuck cba

balmy topaz
#

Ye anyway

vivid vessel
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I don't care about fire mage enough to think about it

balmy topaz
#

It’s the same principle

vivid vessel
#

Imma write a feedback post instead

balmy topaz
vivid vessel
#

@fathom bramble can you link me the thread please cuh

balmy topaz
#

The buff is like what

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Is it altogether c6%

fathom bramble
vivid vessel
#

everytime i oppen it its a mafic jumpscare

fathom bramble
#

yeah some standard mafic nonsense "Outlaw needs to have more survivability and not necessarily to be more tanky."

quaint mauve
vivid vessel
#

how do we get this guy banned from forums

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surely someone knows someone

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this person should not be allowed to type with his keyboard

wintry solar
fathom bramble
#

I think you need to have some very specific definitions of those 2 terms in order for that sentence to actually make sense

wintry solar
#

Whatever they are, I know I don't have them

fathom bramble
#

my assumption is that he means to say outlaw needs more healing, but doesn't need more damage reduction

wintry solar
#

I'm sitting here thinking what that could mean

balmy topaz
#

wtf is that comment

fathom bramble
#

but that might be giving him too much credit

balmy topaz
#

Wdym more survivabikty

fathom bramble
#

it also just wouldn't be an accurate statement

#

we have the lowest DR of almost any spec in thee game rn if feint isn't working on the damage source

#

so idk

balmy topaz
#

Ye I think lil bro wants passive dr of something

wintry solar
#

Maybe he means more cheat deaths or oh shit talents?

#

But not dr

#

Idk

quaint mauve
#

make cheat death not have a cd so we become immortal

vivid vessel
#

roigue should be allowed to run both cheat and elus

fathom bramble
#

give cheat death 2 charges

vivid vessel
#

idk whythat is a choice node

balmy topaz
hasty warren
fathom bramble
#

auto feint but it still costs energy

balmy topaz
#

Goated

hasty warren
#

make cheat baseline

fathom bramble
#

this talent should be 5% all damage and an additional 5% phys

image.png
vivid vessel
#

@fathom bramble i kinda forgot how cheat works but, isnt it something about cheat not working if you take 2 instance of damage on the same frame? (i know about the overkill dmg limitation)

daring yoke
#

I hope you all outlaw scientists can keep spamming that feedback thread. Outlaw is life 😭

fathom bramble
#

every other class in the game has either a global % damage reduction or % more life

#

some of them have both

#

in their class tree

hasty warren
vivid vessel
fathom bramble
vivid vessel
#

i see

fathom bramble
#

I think 2 truly simultaneous hits works still

#

I remember doing that in legion on a dreadlord boss at least

#

but it's been a while

#

you would soak like 6 simultaneous hits that if summed up should overkill you

#

but each one individually wouldn't so you lived through cheat

#

like the 85% reduced damage taken portion of cheat is incredibly unreliable

#

for some reason

#

it also doesn't retroactively reduce projectiles either so 1 hit will trigger cheat and the hit in the air will come in at full damage and just kill you

vivid vessel
#

hm i see

vivid vessel
fathom bramble
#

yeah idk how you fix that portion

vivid vessel
#

that projectiles need to be deffed before they start

fathom bramble
#

a lot of DRs do that

#

maybe all of them

vivid vessel
#

its everything ye

fathom bramble
#

if the incoming projectile is calced before impact

balmy topaz
#

Fuck cheat tho

fathom bramble
#

if it were me I would just change cheat death to a giant absorb shield for 3 seconds

vivid vessel
#

it was extremely problematic on last boss of that bfa dungeon we got in tww s1

fathom bramble
#

bypass all the weird problems

#

and then ti becomes obvious on any rogues ui how much absorb they have after cheating

vivid vessel
hasty warren
vivid vessel
#

ye

hasty warren
#

shit boss

vivid vessel
#

you had to pre deff every spit

#

instead of reacting to the spit going on you

#

for some reason

#

also current outlaw cant live that shit

#

i know because assa could barely live it

#

and i had aug

hasty warren
#

y true

vivid vessel
#

:D

hasty warren
#

was healing at this time and my assa friend was strugeling all the boss

vivid vessel
#

it was very hard

hasty warren
#

was so shit when it still bump you

fathom bramble
#

well they increased player life with the intent of having healing be less ping pongy for the 6th time in a row

#

so maybe you won't have those kind of near oneshots anymore

#

right?

hasty warren
#

ahah

vivid vessel
#

keys dont work that way so

hasty warren
#

copium

fathom bramble
#

I mean they could if you had enough max life

#

but yeah they probably never will

hasty warren
#

idk if it's max mife matter

vivid vessel
#

keys has not been a dps problem for a few times now

hasty warren
#

more def options i think

vivid vessel
#

unless you play a shit comp with no damage

#

like us last tier

#

but meta comps have more so been struggling with living rn

fathom bramble
#

yeah

#

blizz keeps saying they want to move away from that

#

and then it never happens

vivid vessel
#

i do find it more enjoyable when m+ is about dps

hasty warren
#

looks hard to balance tbh

fathom bramble
#

they don't want you to get oneshot, they want damage to slowly outpace overall healing until you die

vivid vessel
#

but it does cause an issue

fathom bramble
#

allegedly

vivid vessel
#

where bad tuning is more noticeable

fathom bramble
#

in theory

vivid vessel
#

in s3 tww our comp in halls would ddeplte halls 21 with 0 death and a way more aggressive route than meta comps

#

while meta comp could time 22 with 5 death and a chill route

fathom bramble
#

so in theory that kind of healing thing would be a matter of getting people to high enough HP before next spit but not necessarily max

#

and maybe the spits slowly overwhelm you in near impossible keys

vivid vessel
#

like perma aoe

#

which

#

well

#

:D

#

not great for us

fathom bramble
#

yeah more than usual

#

which kind of does that overwhelm not oneshot thing

vivid vessel
#

ye

fathom bramble
#

but idk how it will play out in the end

#

prob not doing title keys this season anyway

vivid vessel
#

might overwhelm rogue players tho

fathom bramble
#

just vial 🙂

marble flower
#

does it matter if I have axe fist sword etc on main hand or off hand?

fathom bramble
#

main hand no

#

off hand should be a dagger

#

!oh

ornate heathBOT
#

A dagger offhand is ~1% better than a slow weapon mostly because of cs Zero In, and also slightly more instantpoison Instant Poison procs. Energy is not affected by offhand speed.

It is possible large ilvl differences can matter more than this bonus so use raidbots Raidbots Top Gear when in doubt.

marble flower
#

alright, cheers

fathom bramble
#

the difference is large enough that we are functionally not a DW spec anymore and are rather more like a MH OH spec

#

MH axe/sword/fist/mace OH dagger

wintry solar
#

Booooo

balmy topaz
#

Pit spam all day

wintry solar
#

1h supremacy

balmy topaz
#

Day 1

fathom bramble
#

at least you can transmog to your preferred look now regardless of wep

frail veldt
fathom bramble
#

it makes a dagger like 26 ilvls better than a 1h

frail veldt
#

Well that's cuz offhand ilvl sucks

fathom bramble
#

yeah

frail veldt
#

It's like 6ilvl mainhand haha

fathom bramble
#

but when a normal dagger is as good as a myth 1h

frail veldt
#

If not less

fathom bramble
#

you would never wear a slow oh

frail veldt
#

Yeah true

#

Good point

fathom bramble
#

so functionally you are now MH OH

vivid vessel
#

also you can transmog to swords now

#

so there is really no point

#

biggest issue was fixed

#

im not even mad

#

would take thtat anyday

#

make outlaw not able to wear slow weapons off hand for all i care

#

give it to me

fathom bramble
#

maybe more than 26ilvls

#

0.3% behind still with a wep that has similar stats to the dagger

vivid vessel
fathom bramble
#

delve knife > mythic raid fist weapon

vivid vessel
#

ye i have been trying to loot a dagger on my rogues

#

which has proven to be impossible

#

i have hc weapons on both slots from raid

#

cant use

fathom bramble
#

unlucky

#

stuck in the pits

vivid vessel
#

i got one on my alt yesterday, other rogue asked to trade, told him i was here for dagger

#

i got hit by the

#

"but you are outlaw ??"

#

bro ..

icy hare
#

Should we craft a dagger then with 2nd spark?

fathom bramble
#

a dagger is a good craft yes

icy hare
#

With hunt

fathom bramble
#

your specific situation may vary

#

but a dagger will be a common best 2nd craft

vivid vessel
#

consider the fact that 2nd boss drop a dagger

#

if you clear mythic early enough

#

you are main soaker

icy hare
#

Yeah just thinking the weapon embellishments are pretty nice right?

#

Or no?

vivid vessel
#

i would never craft a dagger 2nd myself if i was outlaw main in my current guild

#

but thats only because of the way we raid and can differ for you idk

fathom bramble
#

dagger 2nd makes most sense for people that don't raid

vivid vessel
#

ye

icy hare
#

I have a normal dagger from raid but it has mastery on it

fathom bramble
#

don't raid mythic*

balmy topaz
#

I think I need to farm pit

#

Dagger spec

fathom bramble
vivid vessel
#

huge

balmy topaz
#

That is big

vivid vessel
#

whats the gain tho

#

if your offhand was dagger craft here

hasty warren
fathom bramble
#

wdym

#

like a 246 one?

balmy topaz
#

We could technically craft 2 myth weps next week right?

vivid vessel
#

276

fathom bramble
balmy topaz
fathom bramble
#

idk if I even want to craft 1 weapon

vivid vessel
fathom bramble
#

might wait to seee how hard the first 3 are

vivid vessel
#

as a sidenote

fathom bramble
#

yeah you can't move it to your offhand

vivid vessel
#

cause you cant put it offhand anymore

fathom bramble
#

everyone is saying to craft on DW specs

#

because you can just move it if a good item drops or whatever

#

but we literally can't

vivid vessel
#

well i told my officiers it was bad for rogues

#

to craft weapons

#

tho i think thats true for most tiers

#

im not crafting till i know more about specs (sub)

#

and till we know if we want to craft week one

balmy topaz
vivid vessel
#

and only if i dont get daggers from 2nd boss like week 2

#

am i crafting

vivid vessel
#

its a dead craft then

balmy topaz
#

Ye but if I am only playing outlaw

fathom bramble
vivid vessel
balmy topaz
fathom bramble
#

if tuning is such that those bosses are easy I can justify delaying the craft until we kill it

vivid vessel
#

thats our point

fathom bramble
#

just to check

#

no one else on our loot sheet except the tank even put it down as an item they want

vivid vessel
#

last tier i delayed till second week lok

fathom bramble
#

so I assume it's either mine or wasted

vivid vessel
#

tho last tier was a bit of an exception maybe

#

but i think it would have made sense anyway prolly

#

kinda depends where the walls are

cinder relic
#

I think I'm on team assa/outlaw like I was on season start

vivid vessel
#

and for what bosses you wanna optimise for

vivid vessel
#

unless you think exec is more important

#

its not % based phasing i think or

#

its a timer ye

#

so exec is irrelevant isnt it

cinder relic
vivid vessel
#

or well last boss

#

last boss from void

#

whic hwould be 2nd to last

vivid vessel
#

if its not hp based timers

cinder relic
#

cuz I said so

vivid vessel
#

oh ok

cinder relic
vivid vessel
#

interesting point

#

i will think about that

#

when i chose my spec on that boss

fathom bramble
#

suddenly final secret phase is a full HP L'ura shadow that you must burn before you die

#

and execute gets way less value

vivid vessel
#

i guess it kinda just depends on kill time timer

#

i mean even then

#

sub just does more st after tier

slim hare
#

With current tuning there is no way its not sub tier

balmy topaz
#

It’s always a sub tier

slim hare
#

Maybe next week outlaw/assa get buffed once we see the tier set enter the equation

vivid vessel
#

after tier sub is here

image.png
fathom bramble
#

well other specs get tier too so it's not quite that extreme

vivid vessel
#

im only doing 10%

fathom bramble
#

but yeah sub will jump a lot with tier

vivid vessel
#

sub tier is 14

#

other specs get 4%

fathom bramble
#

I see

slim hare
#

Only 4?

fathom bramble
#

do you have a full tier list on hand?

vivid vessel
#

here on this boss

image.png
vivid vessel
rose kernel
#

I parsed a 97 and competed with a 69 devourer

#

FeelsBadMan

vivid vessel
#

im not quite aware of other classes tier

balmy topaz
#

10% + 3%

vivid vessel
vivid vessel
#

thats why i didnt

#

do that

#

im just comparing to other rogue specs rn

#

tho i think that can be mostly applied to other classes if you add in the buffs

#

so like idk ?

#

how can it not be a sub tier lol

#

convince me otherwise i guess

balmy topaz
#

If you compare it to other specs not just rogue

#

And take their changes into account

#

Sub will be close to the top

vivid vessel
#

yep

haughty wigeon
#

Rogues are currently a fun class so I do not believe they should be removed. What needs to be addressed are the basics.

Assassination needs its energy tuned up to keep up in the modern game like M+ an Delves.

Outlaw needs to have more survivability and not necessarily to be more tanky.

Sub could use something in its rotation when it has downtime.

In the grander scheme of things a look over Rogue capstone talents to make them more interesting or flashier.

Rogue Hero talents definitely need more flavor which is why the Cloud Cover change is a step in the right direction towards that objective.

:surfing_man: :surfing_woman:

vivid vessel
#

im unsure how im the only one seeing that tho

#

strange to me

#

i mean i get that sub players are always delusional about their specs

#

even tho we play sub every tier

#

but

haughty wigeon
#

i mean sub profile is just really good in general

vivid vessel
#

whole sub chat is acting like sub is the worse spec in the game when its the best rogue spec once again

fathom bramble
#

sub tierset looks insane when you have them all open

vivid vessel
slim hare
#

Most spec around 6% id say

fathom bramble
#

there are 3 dps specs on here with double digit tiersets

haughty wigeon
#

ninja spec the go to spec again? no way

fathom bramble
#

and sub is the highest of those 3 as well

haughty wigeon
#

the first time in sod sl i was okay with it cause zul nuked them for all of bfa

#

but now its just excessive at this point

#

granted obviously numbers=/= design

#

but idk enough about s ub to comment on its design

fathom bramble
#

their only realistic downside is really really bad 2-3 target cleave

#

but no rogue spec does that all too well so

vivid vessel
#

also i wanna add that on this boss i bet assa cannot swap to orbs while the ohter 2 can, making its boss damage look lower

image.png
#

as proven by overall damage

image.png
fathom bramble
#

this tier is also full of the mostevil outlaw tech

#

mouseover split cleave

vivid vessel
#

ye

#

haha

fathom bramble
#

idk if it's even worth with BF being the way that it is

hasty warren
fathom bramble
#

but it is a gain at moments

#

if you cast BTE/pistol shot on a ranged target the BF is still centered on you

vivid vessel
slim hare
#

Ho you mean bte on ranged target yeah

fathom bramble
#

this allows you to gain extra effective targets by mouseover macroing pistol shot and bte

slim hare
#

Cursed tach

fathom bramble
#

because all 3 of us have terrible 2-3 target as you can clearly see from that graph

#

people talk like subs 2 target doesn't exist

vivid vessel
#

of the 3 specs im pretty sure we are the one that scale the least with more targets also

fathom bramble
#

and then it's barely below outlaws 2 target so idk

slim hare
#

Outlaw terrible on 3 target seems so wrong

vivid vessel
#

:D

#

people called me crazy when i said that nerfind bf from 50 to 30

#

would do things to outlaw aoe

slim hare
#

I didn't

vivid vessel
#

"but it doesnt matter if outlaw is tuned higher on st" "but outlaw got a 10% aura buff you dont get it"

fathom bramble
#

I believe I called it the most doomable change ever

vivid vessel
#

i cant believe i had to explain

#

once again

#

that you cant aura buff outalw by 10%

#

and nerf bf by 10%

haughty wigeon
#

i remember hating prep

vivid vessel
#

or even 5%

haughty wigeon
#

i still do

fathom bramble
#

the more I play prep the more I want it removed

#

it needs iteration so badly

slim hare
#

Yep doesn't belong to outlaw

vivid vessel
# vivid vessel or even 5%

and i cant believe people still wouldnt believe me, and that a 10% aura buff was an aoe buff even after a 5% bf nerf look at the sims !

vapid blaze
#

i believed in you :p

vivid vessel
#

like do people not understand wow or

haughty wigeon
fathom bramble
#

I mean the same thing is true now as was true then

#

we would have to be ST gods for this BF ratio with no PC to be decent

slim hare
fathom bramble
#

even pc wouldn't save it in keys

vivid vessel
fathom bramble
#

pc would just let us have some 2-3 target in raid

vapid blaze
#

yeah pc would have been goated this tier

vivid vessel
#

math could lead you to believe that aura buffing the spec by 10% indeed means that you need to reduce bf by 5% to not buff aoe

#

exept in reality specs always do the same % aoe compared to st, and if you need to buff st that just means aoe was that much behind aswell

hasty warren
fathom bramble
#

but it was also done at a time when our aoe needed to be buffed so

#

there is that

vivid vessel
#

and its even a bigger deal that now bf is like that

#

they rarely tune bf

#

we prolly will keep that one for the entire expac

fathom bramble
#

this is also a version of BF that we actually have to spend a gcd on

vapid blaze
fathom bramble
#

so there is a cost to activiating it that eats up a ton of the value gained on 2 targets

vivid vessel
slim hare
vivid vessel
#

sp has a number of ways to do aoe

vivid vessel
#

see you too dont get it

slim hare
#

Ho yeah

vivid vessel
#

it doesnt matter that the sim number is higher on 2 target or whatever target after the buff

hasty warren
#

feels bf cost too much energy with deft too

vivid vessel
#

the fact is, specs every season will do x number of its st in aoe

#

if you reduce that numebr for outlaw only

#

we do less aoe

#

simple as that

hasty warren
#

was is outlaw good at now ?

vivid vessel
#

:D

slim hare
#

Nothing

hasty warren
#

it's no more cleave king right ?

vivid vessel
#

we lost 2 niches going into midnight

slim hare
#

Legit no utility, bad st

vivid vessel
#

tankyness and cleave

slim hare
#

Bad cleave

vivid vessel
#

tho you could argue we had already kinda lost cleave niche with sub and assa getting cleave going into tww

hasty warren
#

25% haste tax is criminal

vivid vessel
#

going into tww we lost the prio niche and the free aoe from talents niche

fathom bramble
#

our cleave is another thing given to the other 2 rogue specs and then taken from all 3 of us 🤔

vivid vessel
#

thats 4 niches lost in 2 expac

#

ok 5

fathom bramble
#

just like my precious long arms

vivid vessel
#

i will count acro as a niche

#

hell i wanna count vanish cheesing as a niche too

#

:D

slim hare
#

Still pas about it

#

Mad

hasty warren
#

actual acro or old one ?

vivid vessel
#

lets say 6 niches lost in the past 2 expac

#

let me know how many we gained

fathom bramble
#

remember when we had long arm of the outlaw and acro at the same time

#

10yrd melee range

hasty warren
#

we have mobility with grapple when it don't break

hasty warren
#

I'm missing SL outlaw so hard

haughty wigeon
#

i cant believe they killed acro

fathom bramble
#

that's what we need

#

serrated bonespike

haughty wigeon
#

by giving everyone long arms

fathom bramble
#

but make it give like 4 combo point since cp econ is so insane now

haughty wigeon
#

and then decided "nah no one is getting it now"

hasty warren
haughty wigeon
#

i miss dreadblades.

slim hare
#

Dooming so much right now i might cancel my sub. I dont get how people got a job while being so bad at it.

fathom bramble
#

game is still fun for now for me

#

I wouldn't doomspiral that hard

#

but at the end of the day I guess if you aren't having fun then what is the point

hasty warren
#

I'm not having fun with actual outlaw

slim hare
#

Legit how do we get nothing, no dmg no tankyness, no utility. And the response is 4 % more dmg while a class 10% better at least it getting 3 not even comparing utility dmg or ranged dps or we would be in the bin

hasty warren
#

blizzard just don't like us

#

got enough evidences through years

vapid blaze
lucid sparrow
vivid vessel
#

@fathom bramble

#

i always forget but

#

sub will also get trinkets

#

later

#

:D

#

you know the usual

vapid blaze
#

wtf is that sub tset btw

#

like o.O

fathom holly
#

what if we all glued ourselves on the streets as a form of protest

twilit topaz
#

Managed one HC boss last night after getting kicked 3 times for struggling to make the DPS cut. Proper having to min max padding on the adds to keep my head above water! While other classes in worse gear are probably just whacking SBA 😭😭😭

lucid sparrow
#

''crit effectiveness''

#

as in

#

higher crit damage?

#

what does that mean cuz crit is not going up

vivid vessel
#

ye i think

#

how would you see it

#

0.15 is a small number

lucid sparrow
#

so i assume thats the only thing tha would mean

vivid vessel
#

there is a 5% damage variance in wow

#

idk anything that doesnt have that variance to actually check its working

hasty warren
vivid vessel
#

yes

#

+-5%

hasty warren
#

never knew this

#

like it's a plage from -5% to +5% or it's either one or the other ?

vivid vessel
#

between ye

#

or so i think idk

#

doesnt matter anywya

hasty warren
#

k interesting

#

y it's about the same variance anyway

lime lake
vivid vessel
#

oh really

#

could check with dots then

#

im not gonna do that tho

#

idc enough about it

#

:D

lime lake
hasty warren
#

bro job queueing is so long wtf is this