outlaw

[glass mortar]

guys....

[vivid vessel]

what do you do when you ahve litteral 0 energy

and the rules ask you to press ss instead of fth

[glass mortar]

btw do we still have the rule to cast PS if u literally cant cast SS due to energy

i think that was an in crackshot window only thing right

so it must be gone

[frail veldt]

okay @vivid vessel are you pressing tea early in raid cuz I feel like it sits at full charges for too long while you slowly lose energy when it could have been ticking down since hte threshold is so low

[mighty pivot]

wow forums have the best feedback

[glass mortar]

cause otherwise that actually comes up fairly often ive found

[frail veldt]

I feel like its prob worth to press it at like 150 energy

[vivid vessel]

no

i dont look at it at all rn

[frail veldt]

if youre currently at max charges

[vivid vessel]

maybe in the future

idk

[frail veldt]

I mean I havent been

but I think its a gain

[vivid vessel]

im still getting used to outlaw

[glass mortar]

honestly mewo that sounds like it could be a cute 0.5% minmax

[vivid vessel]

im a slow learner

[glass mortar]

i def see the angle

it sounds stinky tho

[fierce trout]

Tips for Chimaerus?

[frail veldt]

sounds free

[glass mortar]

tea is so stinky

[mystic berry]

It beats the "thistle tea as a finisher" feedback

[frail veldt]

the SS at 1 but FtH at 2 is so backwards to me

cuz it used to be that we only fth at 1

with bs

so my brain is like having to reverse

[keen belfry]

i press ps

[glass mortar]

i actually like how the rule plays but again

the fact that whole rule is gone for trickster

🤮

[frail veldt]

its literally the opposite of what it used to be

so it requires unlearning

to relearn

[vivid vessel]

its the only thing making outlaw fun for me rn so

[glass mortar]

yea

thats me with ace sound effect

i still misfire every 20th bte probably

what can i say

i just wanna shoot my gun

[frail veldt]

having to not bte after an ace/gravedigger proc

cuz adr is <30s

so weird feeling

bte is so glowy

[glass mortar]

our worst rule by far

[frail veldt]

but just sit

have to wait

[jolly geyser]

weran shooting blanks

[glass mortar]

thankfully a small enough minmax i think im just gunna continue ignoring it

[vivid vessel]

I removed the glows

[frail veldt]

I feel like I do have to throw away LD sometimes

[glass mortar]

u do

[vivid vessel]

i wont have blizzard telling me what to do

[frail veldt]

thats also awk

[vivid vessel]

im pressing bte if i want to

[glass mortar]

i think PW sims lose an average of 1.5 LD or something?

[vivid vessel]

not cause it glows

fuck you !

[glass mortar]

idr but we had a number early in the expac

[frail veldt]

yeah sounds about right

[glass mortar]

theres a lot of efficiency lost in this outlaw

which is funny

because they said they wanted to go back to its roots of "energy and combo point management" or w/e 😎

thats why you SS at 5 now 😎

prep is like the ultimate inefficiency engine to

i hate this spell so much

[polar chasm]

how much of a DPS increase is it to hold BTE if AR is <30s?

[glass mortar]

1% in full gear

a little less depending on ur crit level

probably bigger the more gear we get

[keen belfry]

guys hear me out oK?

stage 3/4 is a dps loss in 4 target cleave cuz u have to press BF more and then u run out of energy and have to die

u shuold just turn off rtb

[glass mortar]

[keen belfry]

can someone make a target count cancel aura rtb macro?

[glass mortar]

you know whats funny, going thru logs and seeing people not open with dispatch

and then get like 3-4 ace procs

and not have SnD up for 20s of the fight

and since its normal/hc that 20s is almost always in lust and pot

[frail veldt]

thats me

[glass mortar]

they almost certainly ate a fat dps loss in that window due to good rng

autos go so hard during lust its insane

and SnD hyperscales them

[frail veldt]

wasting a supercharger on dispatch is so cringe

I almost want to snd opener

[mystic berry]

prep being on gcd gotta be a bug

[frail veldt]

instead of dispatch

in case I proc ace

[glass mortar]

yea i feel that

[keen belfry]

like imagine this is aoe what the fuck ar eytou supposed to do for 27 seconds

[frail veldt]

cuz then you always get double bte supercharger

wait do you prep opener?

I forget

or do you hold

[glass mortar]

well it kinda depends

[keen belfry]

i hold but theres no gain

[glass mortar]

if u can get two the optimal play is to prep the opener

or if its in lust

[frail veldt]

get two what

[glass mortar]

preps

[frail veldt]

ah

[random stirrup]

request a 3min pull timer

[frail veldt]

the alternate is to hold until when?

[glass mortar]

but also like

[keen belfry]

i hold until ar falls off

[frail veldt]

rtb is 30s duration?

[glass mortar]

whenever u wanna use it based off vibes

the minmaxed 2 optimal uses in sims is worth 3% dps

[vivid vessel]

I think there is something about

if you roll 3 buffs

or 2

[glass mortar]

so how much are u giving up if u hold it to cast AR some other point in the fight

[frail veldt]

well then you still have to roll early right?

[vivid vessel]

cause if 3 buff

[glass mortar]

🤷

[vivid vessel]

you can prep

and get bte back up

for 2nd adr

[frail veldt]

I thought the point was that you dont want to generate an LD if your current rtb is <30s duration remaining

[keen belfry]

this is the whole reason why i prep after AR falls off

and bte recently pressed

[glass mortar]

i bet if we simmed all these different ideas in our head

[vivid vessel]

idk i kinda do it with vibes

[frail veldt]

so youre prepping so you have bte for your 2nd adr supercharger

[glass mortar]

it would come down to +- 0.4% dps

because this talent is so weak

[vivid vessel]

if i can farm bte for 2nd adr i try to press pre

otherwise

[glass mortar]

so honestly just go with vibes

[vivid vessel]

i prep after adr

[glass mortar]

and do what u wanna with prep

[vivid vessel]

its irrelvant anwyay

cause its outlaw

[frail veldt]

yeah I mean if you play correctly if you farm bte back in your first adr dont you hold it for your second adr

[vivid vessel]

outlaw is a vibe spec

[frail veldt]

so weird

[keen belfry]

i do the prep vibe rule too

[frail veldt]

feels made up

not a fan

[vivid vessel]

holding is for cucks

im not a cuck

[keen belfry]

someitmes i simply prep in ar cuz i wanna bte twice guarnateed on opener

[frail veldt]

yeah I havent been holding

[vivid vessel]

are you

no well

i hold for adr

[glass mortar]

i mean prep is literally a vibe ability

[vivid vessel]

not the first

the first is diffy

[frail veldt]

I feel like prepping to guarantee sc bte is best

[vivid vessel]

its all vibes bro

[frail veldt]

cuz sc bte thing

that sc bte thing is still there yeah?

and prob not in sims

[keen belfry]

like esp in aoe u can super charger BTE (no reset) prep BTE supercharged

[frail veldt]

ye

[vivid vessel]

mewo

[frail veldt]

so if you dont get bte reset

[vivid vessel]

im gonna tell you a secret

[frail veldt]

on first adr

[vivid vessel]

i can press any rrandom button

i will still do more damage

thats the secret

you just need to vibe

[frail veldt]

tru

[keen belfry]

but u still need make sure u have snd up which is why only in aoe or mid pull type shit

idk im not pressing snd in my opener

cant be asked

[frail veldt]

ugh

yeah fuck snd/dispatch opener

lowkey

[glass mortar]

we should sim it

[keen belfry]

even tho u can get bad procs or rolls and not even get that 2nd bte in ur first AR and be like meh

[glass mortar]

i bet u guys are inting

go look at the damage profile during lust and how much of it is autos

and without SnD ur getting what, like

[keen belfry]

i had solo sim it like a month ago lil chud

[glass mortar]

80% less attack speed

it double dips the haste

[frail veldt]

fine

[glass mortar]

because of the SnD talent

[keen belfry]

i still open with dispatch

ofc i open with dispatch cuh

[vivid vessel]

you guys dont dispatch?

thats such a noob thing

[frail veldt]

dispatch is for cucks

Snd is for chads who know theyre gona ace proc

you wuldnt understand

[keen belfry]

why doesnnt BTE apply snd

like??????????????

[frail veldt]

cuz it used to

and they probably didnt know

[glass mortar]

cause it did due to crackshot and they probably forgor

[frail veldt]

that when you delete crackshot

it deleted bte giving snd

[glass mortar]

id put my money on whoever made the changes literally had no idea it would mean u need to SnD in the opener (dispatch)

[keen belfry]

liike i geuinely think losing the supercharged cdr on your bte from dispatching prior to it is cringe!

i wonder if theres a world we open with SS

naw

nvm

[glass mortar]

wh...why

now i wanna know what thought process this was following awangs cookin

[wintry solar]

Bros TRYING to make it worse on himself

[glass mortar]

no awang became HIM this expac i trust our chef

take us there

[keen belfry]

i hate losing out on the supercharger cdr of bte

[frail veldt]

no but lowkey the sc value on bte isnt in sim

and afaik snd is same value as dispatch opener in sim

so in reality

[keen belfry]

it is

[frail veldt]

snd might be > dispatch

so you dont waste a sc

thoughts?

snd->ss gang

[keen belfry]

also new rule im cooking up, if youre plkaying the BTE supercharger rule, there are moments where your BTE comes off CD with like a minute left on AR, you can hold that BTE and farm zero in stacks until AR has like 35 seconds or whatever then press it

thoughts?

[frail veldt]

LOL

cuz youre gona hold anyway

HMMMM

[keen belfry]

it makes sense!

[frail veldt]

aaaaaaaaaH i seeeeeeeeeeeeeee

holy

thats cringe

I love it

lets ruin outlaw

[keen belfry]

same amount of BTEs, more zero in stacks!

[frail veldt]

yeup

well wait

actually

[keen belfry]

i think its only relevant if u have high crit

[frail veldt]

opposite

as long as you dont overcap zero in before adr

[keen belfry]

yes

[frail veldt]

you want your zero in

for the adr sc

[keen belfry]

the rule was gonna be or if u hit 20 zero in stacks

[frail veldt]

yeah

so whatever the time it takes to farm 20 zero stacks

[keen belfry]

because at high crit i think u farm stacks pretty quick

[frail veldt]

is how long before adr you want to send your bte

as long as you wont lose a bte usage

[keen belfry]

oslo was typing

[frail veldt]

oslo

[keen belfry]

hes cooking up something rn

[frail veldt]

I can feel it

[glass mortar]

hes about to ban us all

for our cooking

[frail veldt]

LOL

[glass mortar]

and we deserved it too

[keen belfry]

i think my rule is lit no cap

[glass mortar]

it was a good run

[frail veldt]

lowkey in pvp though zero in stacks are super huge

for your burst setup

very cringe

[keen belfry]

well i gues the issue with my rule is

what if that bte at 1 min resets

and u simpl can press it twice before having to hold

gg

[frail veldt]

I mean then do it

[glass mortar]

that is one of many possible issues

[frail veldt]

who cares

[keen belfry]

only issue u mean

[glass mortar]

but it was a cute cook anyway awang

just like u

[frail veldt]

why is the reset a problem

[glass mortar]

ur losing out on potential value

[frail veldt]

well just press it again

[glass mortar]

not everytime obviously

[frail veldt]

when it resets

[keen belfry]

well with my rule mewo u wouldnt press that bte at 1 minute

[frail veldt]

obv send the reset

[glass mortar]

so it never reset until u pressed with ar at like 35s cd, then the reset press is getting AR off cd before ur next Bte would be

so now ur holding AR if u wanna use those supercharges on Bte again

[frail veldt]

well if it reset at 35s

then you can hold it for adr

[glass mortar]

or i guess u could just not press the reset

[frail veldt]

whatever

[glass mortar]

!!

[frail veldt]

yeah

I dont think the reset is an issue

cuz the one before the reset is the higher value one

cuz you ahve zero in stacks

[glass mortar]

well no

it is

[frail veldt]

I think we migth genuinely need to consider ZI stacks

with the hold timer

[glass mortar]

because if u hold it and it woulda procced like 5 times until AR, but u woulda had a new BtE off cd for AR anyway

u are losing raw BtE casts in this scenario

more so then the normal hold

some small % of the time

[frail veldt]

but theyre weak bte casts

losing a 0 stack ZI bte is not that bad

[glass mortar]

no Bte cast is weak

[keen belfry]

imagine AR says 1 min not 1:15.

awang rule says dont press BTE until max zero in sstacks OR 30ish seconds on AR

but if ignore that rule and press BTE rn it could reset and give me 2 BTES before my next AR instead of 1 right?

[frail veldt]

thats why holding for up to 30s adr cd is okay

[vivid vessel]

you guiys still talking about the opener thing ?

[glass mortar]

no

[frail veldt]

no

[vivid vessel]

i managed to do an entire dungeon

[frail veldt]

were talking about holding bte before adr

[keen belfry]

SHUTUP

[vivid vessel]

cucks

[frail veldt]

and the bte BEFORE the bte you hold

you actually want to hold

for ZI stacks

double hold

HODL rules

like if you know youre gona hold your next bte anyway

might as well hold the one before

[keen belfry]

can someone debunk the message is aid

[frail veldt]

for ZI

[keen belfry]

my brain isnt working i havent eaten today

i htink i have flue

[frail veldt]

go eat dog

[keen belfry]

becasue u said go eat i mnot gonna

stubborn king!

[frail veldt]

operational defiance disorder

[glass mortar]

i think the issue is we are def losing efficiency and BtE casts here mewo like

[gaunt phoenix]

i have not been around to update/keep up with stuff

[tropic zephyr]

!fuu

[ornate heath]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[glass mortar]

why would your rule stop working for the BtE before the BtE before the BtE that would be held?

[frail veldt]

exactly 😉

[glass mortar]

why not start holding for zero in stacks at 1:15s on ar cd

[frail veldt]

you tell me

[glass mortar]

because u r losing efficiencys

theres too much rng involved

coulda rolled a jackpot and gotten 2 extra btes off cd due to cdr during that window

etc

its gambling

[frail veldt]

yeah so probably if you go to far out you dont know what you might lose

[keen belfry]

you could get two btes off mewo if us end it at 1:15 or whatever instead of one

[glass mortar]

dont gamble on my gambling spec

[keen belfry]

mhm

[frail veldt]

like you might lose 0.2 btes on average

but gain 5 stacks of ZI on average

[glass mortar]

and its almost certainly gambling at a net loss

[frail veldt]

and it might be worth

genuinely

[tropic zephyr]

!up

[ornate heath]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1484624630764273745/drops.png

[glass mortar]

u missed a rollercoaster of emotions

[keen belfry]

is our pull by pull variance insane this season, im tlaking m+ pulls

like i do like, 25% more dmg if i jackpot vs 2 buff in aoe

[vivid vessel]

bigger than before yes

[vivid vessel]

more like 30% prolly

[frail veldt]

our sim stdev isnt much higher though

which is interesting

[keen belfry]

but pull to pull

like minute long pulls

[vivid vessel]

yes we have higher rng ?

or wdym

[frail veldt]

we dont though

is what im saying

[vivid vessel]

we do

[frail veldt]

our stdev isnt much higher than tww sims

[keen belfry]

im imaging first pull cinderbrew or floodgate, completely variable based on your first roll

[vivid vessel]

it is

[frail veldt]

go look at the sims

[vivid vessel]

no

[glass mortar]

changes in st DV are bigger then they appear in the actual number

it did go up

which is funny cause it feels kinda like rotational rng went down?

maybe thats just me

[keen belfry]

its all rtb right?

[vivid vessel]

i mena

[glass mortar]

we just have a bunch of nonsense passive buffs to damage sources stackingand falling in the background

increasing our variance

[vivid vessel]

its ace and rtb

[glass mortar]

but not gameplay variance

[keen belfry]

rtb jackpot does so much dmg

[frail veldt]

its not higher

[glass mortar]

well

[vivid vessel]

nice lie bro

[keen belfry]

lying again mewo?

[frail veldt]

idk what to tell you

I thought it would be too

[vivid vessel]

like i would believe a sim

xd

[frail veldt]

rofl

[vivid vessel]

a sim in 2026

i cannot bro

[frail veldt]

oh yeah

[vivid vessel]

nice try bud

[frail veldt]

I forgot

outlaw sims dont mean anything

[keen belfry]

https://klipy.com/gifs/proposal-the-sims-1

this is all mewo believes

sims

[frail veldt]

LOL

i was about to be like

what the fuck is that gif

hahahahah

[keen belfry]

https://klipy.com/gifs/sim-sims

wtf is this

[crimson scarab]

wifey

[thorn parrot]

Woah ok we’re getting wild for Friday, let’s go tho actuawee?

[lucid sparrow]

the sim is using blade rush 34 seconds into the fight

first one

why

[lucid sparrow]

mine doesnt show br until 34s in

[keen belfry]

cuz tier probs

[lucid sparrow]

right

[glass mortar]

do u have tier?

[keen belfry]

im guessing theres a check for if u have tier

[lucid sparrow]

i dont

[keen belfry]

if no tier, BR is a energy tool

[glass mortar]

theres a rule in the apl to not cast BR if you would overcap energy during the gcd

[lucid sparrow]

forgot about that

[glass mortar]

only happens if u dont have tier tho

[keen belfry]

i ignor ethat rule

[glass mortar]

when u look at the print out it gives u in that its just a random single slice of 10k iterations from the center of the curve i believe

so its possible ur looking at a slice that had such good rng it woulda overcapped energy that entire 20s window if it has cast BR

ive def had pulls i felt that

but yea i have also been ignoring it because of my rng is that good i dont need to hold BR for energy later anyway and i wanna see my sickass animation

[lucid sparrow]

sim also assumed triple threat the entire time almost

[glass mortar]

triple threat?

[lucid sparrow]

rtb

[keen belfry]

just roll good

[glass mortar]

sim doesnt assume anything

[lucid sparrow]

whatever dice this bot is using

[glass mortar]

sim is playing the game 10k times

[lucid sparrow]

i want it

[glass mortar]

yea u just got a slice that had it

but i do want it

guarenteed 3 buff on first roll of combat when

😠

3 or higher

[lucid sparrow]

yea

real

[tepid turtle]

!ui

[ornate heath]

Resources:

• ArcUI / BetterCDM - common suites for buff/cd customization
• WangBar - displays CPs/energy, customize colors per point, faster than Sensei
• MSUF - recommendation for unit frames
• Platynator - recommendation for nameplates (Jundies Profile)
  Misc:
• Clickable Raid Buffs - for poisons
• WilduTools - random QoL like melee range indicator, track cursor
• Mute Cold Blood sound - if we ever go back to this talent

[winter falcon]

Do we expect more tuning info sometime soon?

[gaunt phoenix]

Nope

[river wing]

bruhhh

[vivid vessel]

hm

well i dont think thats nearly enough so

[river wing]

bro what the fuck

[random stirrup]

owned zac

[crisp elm]

i mean ill take it

[random stirrup]

they did buff sub the least!

[vivid vessel]

ye i was gonna say

[crisp elm]

better than being ignored

[vivid vessel]

how do they buff specs that are above us

more

[crisp elm]

wait

[fossil lintel]

Yooo

4%

[crisp elm]

why aimed shot 8% increase

LOL

[winter falcon]

I might change toons

[fossil lintel]

I expected no changes to be honest

[past falcon]

incremental tuning indeed

[river wing]

no worries
we'll see no more tuning till 12.0.5

(for rogues, that is)

[frank finch]

all abiity

AND

[craggy barn]

4%

[frank finch]

melee

[craggy barn]

huge

[fossil lintel]

Why are they buffing devourer?

[frank finch]

cuz new class

gg

[prisma lantern]

Lol seems pretty clear they just straight up have carved out tiers of how good they think specs should be, and we're just on a lower tier. 😂

[tired wolf]

are we back

[hoary wave]

back to where buddy

[fossil lintel]

How big is the nerf to mm cleave?

[rigid kestrel]

how big a buff is the 4% aura buff?

[rocky canopy]

guys is it too early to call it a rogue tier

[trim vigil]

WTF 4%, I'M SO HAPPY

[zinc briar]

4% is nothing

hahaha

[fossil lintel]

It's about 4%

[zinc briar]

We need 15% and more energy

[vivid vessel]

bout this big

you have to zoom in

to see

[fading igloo]

Guys we’re in the patch notes

[rigid kestrel]

(My message was intended to be a meme about people asking how big percentage a percentage aura buff is, it was not intended to be doom) :^)

[fossil lintel]

Which means no further change to rogue until 12.1

[rigid kestrel]

https://klipy.com/gifs/reading-killjoy

[civic zephyr]

is rogue among worst classes zac?

[cinder relic]

?

[rigid kestrel]

wait

[near rock]

I’m happy with 4 considering we don’t have mythic data yet

[rigid kestrel]

but that's outl*w

[cinder relic]

!warn @fading igloo Not here buddy

[frail veldt]

4%

were so back

[vivid vessel]

i mean all 3 specs are legit bottom

so ye

[civic zephyr]

yeah i liked yout graph

[vivid vessel]

i think outlaw is the worse of the 3 just cause its unplayable on last boss once again

[civic zephyr]

it filled me with hope

[vivid vessel]

cant convince me otherwise

[civic zephyr]

im pretty sure this 4% will put us just at top

for sure

[quaint mauve]

that’s fucking MASSIVE

[rigid kestrel]

Do we think our raid buff makes us worth in world first this time

[cinder relic]

"this time" as if rogue hasnt been in every WF kill since atro has been added

[rigid kestrel]

yea

it was "this time" cuz it might be different this time

[cinder relic]

I doubt it

rogue isnt that bad

Its not good

But its not that bad yk

[vivid vessel]

ye rogue isnt the worse melee

[plush grove]

3% and 4% is not nearly enough

lol

[torpid fiber]

LMAOOOOO

[magic shuttle]

One sub rogue in rfw for sure

[vivid vessel]

wait guys

its not the worse melee right

guys

[rigid kestrel]

erm

[past falcon]

arms warr

[rigid kestrel]

Did arms get shit?

[vivid vessel]

i said rogue

war has fury

[rigid kestrel]

[plush grove]

althought for outlaw i dont believe its a flat buff tuning, i think its a kit tuning

[vivid vessel]

which is litteraly topping

[rigid kestrel]

erm

[pure folio]

I dont think arms or fury is bad at all

[rigid kestrel]

Surely we are actually worst melee no?

[pure folio]

As a class maybe

[rigid kestrel]

I mean besides the fact that ele looks better than enhance right? if that counts

[vivid vessel]

yes we are

[rigid kestrel]

and hunter

[vivid vessel]

rogue is the worse melee class

or well

[rigid kestrel]

gg

[vivid vessel]

worse class straight up

[rigid kestrel]

but worst doesn't mean bad right gamers?

[pure folio]

No

[vivid vessel]

unless you consider elem to be its own class

[pure folio]

Rogue is not bad

[vivid vessel]

cause its ranged

and enhance is melee

[winter falcon]

Where are y’all seeing the changes?

[rigid kestrel]

new wowhead post

[vivid vessel]

same place as usual bro

[midnight granite]

Oh shit 4%

[rigid kestrel]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/additional-midnight-class-tuning-incoming-march-24th-380891

[midnight granite]

We huge

[winter falcon]

Don’t know where that is bro

Thanks though

[rigid kestrel]

[pure folio]

@winter falcon https://www.wowhead.com/blue-tracker

[static crescent]

So is 4% like, actually just me thinking my dmg is 100k so after il do 104k, am i stupid for wondering if theres more to it

[faint pendant]

it's less

[normal forge]

4%

[rigid kestrel]

aura doesnt work with trinket and cantrip effects

[faint pendant]

ye

[rigid kestrel]

But pretty much

[normal forge]

better than what we got in tww s3

[waxen scarab]

we are back

[rigid kestrel]

Real

[mystic berry]

we are so back bros

Uhdk wish they had our balancing

[rigid kestrel]

Loading up the credit card for Midnight anyways

[unborn basin]

🤔

[tulip crater]

were so back

[mystic berry]

I for one am glad they didnt nerf bf to compensate this huge buff

[tulip crater]

i can be a pirate now and make luffy proud

[waxen scarab]

why they buff sub tho

[mystic berry]

rwf?

[vivid vessel]

cause they dont know sub get a tier set that is worth 14%

devs arent aware yet

[waxen scarab]

exactly

when was the last time outlaw was in the rwf

[fathom bramble]

is there another pass planned after this?

[fathom bramble]

orgozoa probably lol

[static crescent]

next week i think

[tulip crater]

so you think they gonna nerf sub after that happens?

[vivid vessel]

considering its litteraly the smallest tuning pass i have ever seen

prolly not

[vivid vessel]

no lol ?

have you been playing wow

for the past 3 expac

[junior sierra]

sub is the cannon rogue spec this decade

[halcyon garden]

i didnt zac

[waxen scarab]

https://tenor.com/view/amazingly-funny-gif-19616588

[thorn parrot]

Pirate stealth boy with guns is so back fellas

[vivid vessel]

you know its a sub tier not an assas tier right nitro

dont get fooled

[glass mortar]

zac

4% zac....

[halcyon garden]

its a dh tier tbf

[glass mortar]

surely this is patch notes 1 of 4

[vivid vessel]

well sure

[glass mortar]

4 more 4%s to come

[vivid vessel]

but after that

[glass mortar]

zac.....

[keen belfry]

4% bruh?

[vivid vessel]

weran

it is what it is

[junior sierra]

its an outlaw tier for sure

[halcyon garden]

yeah i guess

but sub will be horrible on double boss like drakes and council imo

pressing bp there is kinda.... sussy?

but will be prolly playing sub on last

[vivid vessel]

sure but, with tier set sub on this picture would be right under assa, 1% under

soidk about horrible

[halcyon garden]

yes it will

but can you consider rogue strong ? im not sure

[mystic berry]

That mm damage is scary

[halcyon garden]

i guess top guilds will avoid rogue on some bosses

[vivid vessel]

wait nvm i did the math wrong

it would be above

[fathom bramble]

I wonder if atrophic is enough to bring rogue if it really looks like that in myth prog

[halcyon garden]

yeah

[fathom bramble]

for these giga guilds

[vivid vessel]

like it would be here

[halcyon garden]

i dont think so

[vivid vessel]

with tier set

hm

thats kinda crazy no ?

sub being the best spec on vanguard

ah wait im looking at normal its a bit different on hc

[fathom bramble]

I mean subs 2 target is junk, but people need to remember all 3 rogue specs got their 2 target obliterated

[halcyon garden]

yes it will be the best rogue spec but it still a dogshit class on this boss and you know it

[fathom bramble]

it's not like outlaw or sin have exceptional 2 target or anything

[prisma lantern]

Lol mm on that graph is hilarious.

[vivid vessel]

on hc its right there

[halcyon garden]

thats why guilds will avoid rogue

[fathom bramble]

yeah I could see it

1 rogue at most, some may even run 0 on a fight with that kind of damage distribution

[mystic berry]

But the atro bro

[fathom bramble]

like atro is good, but is it That good

[mystic berry]

What about the atro

[halcyon garden]

atro is a turbo bait

[vivid vessel]

atro is the worse raid buff

[mystic berry]

[vivid vessel]

so

like we all know that

[halcyon garden]

doesnt even work on all abilities

[fathom bramble]

better than devo

I will die on this hill

[vivid vessel]

tell me one raid buff worse than atro

hm

ok suire

[halcyon garden]

even hunters mark is better know

[fathom bramble]

but yes both of those raid buffs are bad in the face of like DH, arcane int, and druid

[mystic berry]

hunter mark is great now

[vivid vessel]

and hunter and priest and warrior and monk

like

[halcyon garden]

of course its great

[vivid vessel]

every other buff is better

[halcyon garden]

and cham

and drood

[vivid vessel]

ewven dk raid buff is better

[halcyon garden]

and war

[vivid vessel]

and they dont have one

[halcyon garden]

lmfao yeah

i mean

[fathom bramble]

yeah it's just that all raidbuffs are strong

[halcyon garden]

its fine we will play in s2

[fathom bramble]

as in they have a very large impact on the raid

[halcyon garden]

ill freeze my sub

[fathom bramble]

compared to most other effects a class could offer

[prisma lantern]

Fuck man mythic without grip... DKs don't need a raid buff.

[vivid vessel]

ah wl also

wl raid buff is better

[fathom bramble]

healthstone prob better than atro if your players actually press it as an extra defensive

[vivid vessel]

i dont even know what evoker raid buff is but im sure its better

[slim hare]

lol

patchnote

[fathom bramble]

but my point is moreso that all raidbuffs are quite strong and that atro may still overcome rogues weakness and get you to bring 1

[slim hare]

it worse than zac was saying

[fathom bramble]

evoker is -15% cooldown on class movement skills

which can be very good

or very pointless

[slim hare]

Rogue
Assassination
All ability and melee damage increased by 4%.
Outlaw
All ability and melee damage increased by 4%.
Subtlety
All ability and melee damage increased by 3%. Does not apply to PvP.

[vivid vessel]

they habve the spell tho

that reset cds

[fathom bramble]

I think their cd to reset everyones movement skill is more meaningfull

[vivid vessel]

that shit mega op

[fathom bramble]

but that's not really a raidbuff

[vivid vessel]

eh

raid utility lets say

[fathom bramble]

it's just class utility because it stacks with more evokers

[vivid vessel]

its all the same category

like how dk grip

is kinda a raid buff

[worthy surge]

its not enough but its a start

[snow vessel]

it's just conditional right I know on Ansurek our DK needed evoker buff to have his DA up at the right time

but a lot of the time it's not super impactful

[fathom bramble]

I choose to put only things that actually don't stack and are provided to the entire raid as raidbuffs

everything else is something else

[random stirrup]

evoker util goes crazy

[halcyon garden]

wait wait wait guys we have 8 sec kidney

😄 😄 😄

[fathom bramble]

that doesn't mean those other things aren't as strong or stronger than raidbuffs

[halcyon garden]

we cant even dance triple cheashot even if i want to stun i cannot

[fathom bramble]

but they are clearly not raidbuffs to me

[fathom bramble]

yeah it's also just never useful for me

so it's hard to notice when it might be useful to others

[junior coral]

has any one successfully installed zac full ui profile lol?

[obsidian light]

when do the buffs go live?

[stuck patrol]

Been meaning to ask, is numbing or atro better? I always thought atro would be better, but my raid lead insists numbing is better bc apparently it works on boss autos

[lucid sparrow]

7% increased chance for bte to resrt and 4% aura buff

[vivid vessel]

ye me

i did

[lucid sparrow]

decent?

[fathom bramble]

atro is strictly better in raid, there is virtually no chance that you care about tank autos enough to overcome 3.6% dr on the entire raid

[vivid vessel]

(not joking btw since i created my whole ui on ptr realm then installed it on live)

[fathom bramble]

numbing is for keys imo where the cast speed reduction and tank damage taken from autos can actually matter

[stuck patrol]

That's what im saying lmao

[fathom bramble]

if a boss has a mechanic that actually interacts with their autos to some meaningful extent then maybe you see numbing at some point

[junior coral]

haha i finally got a chance to sit down and mess with it, bruh my shit looks terrible i did some thing wrong for sure, i checked your stream and its clean. wait for this screen shot haha

[mystic berry]

tell him that tanks dont need numbing

[fathom bramble]

but it's just not efficient raid mitigation

[light kernel]

is there a rule when to use preperation or just send it when everything is on cd?

[timid idol]

so

its looking like an undermine situation

swap to ret or ww

o7

[fathom bramble]

do you know if the DK thing stacks with numbing or not? @vivid vessel

[past falcon]

!ui

[ornate heath]

Resources:

• ArcUI / BetterCDM - common suites for buff/cd customization
• WangBar - displays CPs/energy, customize colors per point, faster than Sensei
• MSUF - recommendation for unit frames
• Platynator - recommendation for nameplates (Jundies Profile)
  Misc:
• Clickable Raid Buffs - for poisons
• WilduTools - random QoL like melee range indicator, track cursor
• Mute Cold Blood sound - if we ever go back to this talent

[stuck patrol]

Prep explanation is so convoluted that I feel like we need a bot command with the explanation lmao

[vivid vessel]

eleem told me the wl thing stacked with cast speed but not melee

[fathom bramble]

sounds like numbing might do literally nothing in raid then

[mystic berry]

probably

[fathom bramble]

could be worth double checking, but at the end of the day even if it stacks atro is better so it's kind of whatever

[keen belfry]

I was thinking we were gonna get like 8%

It’s okay we get huge buffs mythic week

[lucid sparrow]

Well its to ability and melee

[river wing]

yeah I was expecting 7-8%

[lucid sparrow]

usually its just ability

[vivid vessel]

that changes nothing

its the difference between a 5% or 4% buff

[worthy surge]

we definitely need more

but at least we didnt get nothing

[lucid sparrow]

Why are they so fucking scared of buffing this spec?

[worthy surge]

seems like rogue in general

always scared of buffing rogue

[timid idol]

this class does nothing

it has 0 utility

0 aoe

0 st

0 raid

0 m+

oh but

muh pvp

nobody fucking cares

and im pretty sure its mid in pvp as well

its mage's 30th patch of being the best dps in a row

300th

while also having utility :)))

if blizzard had any sort of clue all 3 rogue specs would be top 3 dps

with the current design

[river wing]

actually srs question time
when was the last time rogue was legit topping DPS charts, not like on specific fights that played into Sub or w/e, but just overall was the best damage dealer?

[timid idol]

pre vanilla release

maybe

real answer prob bfa

and that was the last time rogue was ever meta

[cedar adder]

11.0.5 we were bugged for a day but it got hotfixxed. was glorious

[slim hare]

stupid time

but glorious aswell x)

[shadow trellis]

Dragonflight was pretty good both in M= and in raids

[clever wasp]

brother forgot about s2>

DF was ass

[narrow sail]

bfa season 1, they ran 2 or 3 rogues in the mdi meta. never recovered.

[snow vessel]

Probably Ammirdrassil

it was very strong in that raid

[timid idol]

and its like blizzard has some rogue tumors still left from that xpac

or idk whats wrong

its been 30 years and 30 different metas

[snow vessel]

Shortly after the mini reworks

[shadow trellis]

Assa was the best spec in the game (damage) going into Vault of the Incarnates

[lucid sparrow]

Someone make a meme with that skeleton at the bottom of a pool dead with rogue icon on it

[silent vessel]

outlaw buffed!

[fathom bramble]

if it wasn't for tindral outlaw would have been awesome in amirdrassil

though still somehow not as strong as sub so idk

rogue overall was quite good that tier though

[snow vessel]

Assa pre nerfs too

was like the best spec in the game or some shit

with PI

[narrow sail]

smolderon?

[snow vessel]

that was probably the last time rogue was really strong in raid

[timid idol]

can we like shut down the entire discord maybe the paladin strat works

[fathom bramble]

outlaw wasn't bad on smolderon

sure sub was OP

[lucid sparrow]

about to rename between the eyes to between my eyes (one time use)

[fathom bramble]

but outlaw was quite good in the grand scheme

[gray summit]

LETS GO

4%

[shadow trellis]

Outlaw was so good in M+ in dragonflight

mann

i wanna go backk

[timid idol]

4%

for class with 0 utility :)

i genuinely need a blizzard dev explain to me in depth why all 3 rogue specs are not top dps

i want to hear the genuine reasoning

and what offsets their lower dps

[river wing]

because if you ever apply that sort of logic

then Rogue is never moving from that spot

[timid idol]

CORRECT

THATS EXACTLY HOW ITS SUPPSED TO BE LMAOOOO

[river wing]

until/unless it's given some big utility, at least

[timid idol]

why would i ever deal less dps than the class with amz?

why would i ever deal less dps than the class with arcane intelect?

[fathom bramble]

I mean yeah it's the same kind of thing as the fact that outlaw should always have the highest damage on patchwerk 100% uptime

[gleaming lagoon]

when times are bad and you feel down
remember the trickster bug in nerubar 🙏
rember happy t-t-times

[fathom bramble]

but I don't think their tuning is that precise or even tries to be for that kind of thing to happen reliably

[timid idol]

ok but

its not even close to that

it's quite the opposite

[fathom bramble]

yeah

[timid idol]

ok fine we dont deserve top dps

but at least above average lol

[light kernel]

outlaw on tindral was the cringest gameplay ever

[gray summit]

guys we are so back in the game

with 4%

[winter falcon]

Gotta be in the top 1/3rd

[gray summit]

i just cry for assa

wtf just 4% for them

xd

[fathom bramble]

imagine what 2 charges of AR could have done for that fight 🙂

[eternal hound]

Oh thats neat

[fathom bramble]

literally going to need 2 charges of AR forever

[timid idol]

cya next szn

[light kernel]

rank 1 parse out of all classes

guys do we use m+ talents for raid when not st fight?

[lucid sparrow]

https://tenor.com/view/frog-yeah-no-yeah-no-disagree-gif-16846087569315350011

[gray summit]

i am little bad in mathematics

the up of 4%

can i take my dps of today and od *1,04

or the effect of every dmg do more ?

[river wing]

less

no procs or trinks affected

[fathom bramble]

not quite, we don't know what kind of evil rounding they are doing and it does not increase the damage of trinkets or other cantrip effects

[river wing]

so if you have anything on-hit, it isn't affected

[gray summit]

ooooh ok

so will be something around 2,8-3%

[river wing]

nah it's like 3.9% or smth

[gray summit]

if u do a proportionnal of our on hit and other

oh i thougt was more important

but ok

i trust u, sorry for my bad english i am a baguette

[fathom bramble]

the actual aura buff is either going to be 3.3% or 4.2% depending on round direction

[river wing]

for +4% aura to be 3%, your trinks and cantrips would have to do 25% of your total

[fathom bramble]

we can hope for 4.2 since that is obviously closer to the intended 4

[gray summit]

but on hit its our melee ?

or melee is count ?

[river wing]

melee is buffed

[gray summit]

ooook !

[ionic citrus]

LMAO. Subs are way far ahead on dragons bro.

[gray summit]

melee buff is so gooood

[dire rampart]

lets boycott

[copper radish]

so pack it in for season?

[wicked ether]

nothing another 4% aurabuff can't solve

[radiant root]

!ui

[ornate heath]

Resources:

• ArcUI / BetterCDM - common suites for buff/cd customization
• WangBar - displays CPs/energy, customize colors per point, faster than Sensei
• MSUF - recommendation for unit frames
• Platynator - recommendation for nameplates (Jundies Profile)
  Misc:
• Clickable Raid Buffs - for poisons
• WilduTools - random QoL like melee range indicator, track cursor
• Mute Cold Blood sound - if we ever go back to this talent

[lone spear]

its all pad

can just sort by damage to bosses

or look at any breakdown

and its black powder spam lmao

[fierce mulch]

yeah their damage is high because they pad with tech and bp on the adds

[ancient cobalt]

pad but adds need to die

[oak bloom]

target cap issue ?

[lone spear]

adds will die to the good classes that passive cleave

[faint pendant]

outlaw is literally a pad spec

[lone spear]

people have lost what pad means

[vivid vessel]

outlaw is quite litteraly the opposite of a pad spec

we dont lose damage "padding"

sub is a pad spec

[light kernel]

do we need to ar after pull

or we can prepull it

[vivid vessel]

maybe i look at your priuo damage when you are spamming bp bud ?

[light kernel]

im just 1m before pull

[fierce mulch]

unholy could cleave the adds easily but people burn them before they can set their deceases

[faint pendant]

that's why it's a pad spec. outlaw doesn't choose between eviscerate or black powder

[lone spear]

ur definition of pad is wrong sir

[vivid vessel]

padding means im losing my prio to do useless aoe

[light kernel]

we choose who to hit primary?

[vivid vessel]

thats not what outlaw does

[silk dirge]

4% confirms sub tier rip boys we needed a lil more

[faint pendant]

wasn't it always that pad specs were always bad in ST because of their pad?

[vivid vessel]

idk what that means

historicaly outlaw has been one of the best prio spec in the game

so idk about that

[snow vessel]

If you're not doing the right type of damage that is needed it's pad

aoe=/=pad

[vivid vessel]

ye but outlaw isnt that because its free

[snow vessel]

aoe that doesn't help kill the boss=pad

[faint pendant]

ye

[vivid vessel]

outlaw is one of the least pad spec in the game

cause it loses nothing doing aoe

compare it to sub

sub pressing bp

[final pagoda]

do we like the vessel trinket?

[vivid vessel]

that is pad

you pressing bp on dragon bud ?

[keen belfry]

I always classify pad as are you griefing your boss dmg to do this dmg

[vivid vessel]

nice pad buddy

get out of my raid

noob

[vivid vessel]

well ye cause thats what it means lol

[keen belfry]

Yes but some people don’t

Some ppl see high dmg to adds and think pad

[faint pendant]

ok then sub rogue can pad
but outlaw always pads?
then why saying outlaw is "pad spec" wrong?

[vivid vessel]

but you dont get it tho

[snow vessel]

I mean sure but if your class is much better at doing burst aoe it's not pad

that's what the class is there for

[vivid vessel]

padding is losing important damage to do irrelevant damage

losing prio to do aoe

that isnt needed

[daring yoke]

4% buff spec saved 😭 feels like they hv no clue lol

[vivid vessel]

yeye its just in this example we are assuming add damage is useless

[snow vessel]

Ye

That's fair

[vivid vessel]

or other specs are better

at doing that

[snow vessel]

Ye ye

[mystic berry]

0.5 will save us, with 5% more ace procs

we are back

[keen belfry]

i have perfect example from last night:
one of the boomys here is padding

[vivid vessel]

idk i think the orbs in hc were pretty much an issue

need to kill them fast rn

[light kernel]

how bad is this trinket

[fathom bramble]

worse than the M0 one that does basically the same thing

but it's fine

[final pagoda]

how hard is to pick up orbs with the vessel?

[clear turtle]

bladeflurry for those isnt pad, holding your sectech for 20 seconds to drop it on them specifically could be depending on what your raid is struggling with

[light kernel]

kekw

[fathom bramble]

like this one is just strictly better

but overall fiber is an okay trinket if you don't have any of the big ones

[light kernel]

imagine getting both POG

[keen belfry]

i played one league game today zac

7th 8th 9th and 10th on my team

unlucky?

[snow vessel]

Friend just sent me a good example apparently no1 Boomie on last boss

99% of his damage is just dotting and starfalling p1

[vivid vessel]

im clueless about last boss tbf

i havent done it yet

we have just done 2 5 boss split

[twilit topaz]

Proper struggling to compete with DPS on outlaw atm 😭

[snow vessel]

Same we did 6/7 twice

[vivid vessel]

6 7 ?

https://giphy.com/gifs/tfc02yVZ706e8A69y1

[snow vessel]

ffs

[random stirrup]

those things do need to die tho

like not super fast but you want to get them low before they reach the right spot to die

[fathom bramble]

that's the most within margin of error sim I've ever run

where something is actually different between both sims

[desert tendon]

zac did u reroll lock or hunt?

[copper radish]

is this with the 4% buff

[fathom bramble]

no

[primal holly]

4% huge

[fathom bramble]

that's just me checking if thief is better than steel

[primal holly]

i thought we were already decent in raid tbh

so v happy

[fathom bramble]

turns out they are the same on my character for damage output

[keen belfry]

i think u need the energy of steel if u running bf stuff in raid

but also thats vibes and idk how much steel gives us

[fathom bramble]

steel is a very very small amount of energy

but maybe still needed depending on haste

[keen belfry]

im at 25

[fathom bramble]

it's also energy when you need it least kind of

sicne it's when SS procs and you have ps locked on loaded now

[keen belfry]

yeah true

[primal holly]

wanted to quickly say thanks to this discord - it's really helped me improve. super proud of reaching #3 on normal lol

[near rock]

Grats!

[primal holly]

gonna stick around to help and hopefully pass on the favour to others here 🙂

[vivid vessel]

waht time does m0 reset

is it 5 am

[final pagoda]

??

[keen belfry]

its normal reset time

[final pagoda]

3 hr 35 min

[keen belfry]

like 10am my time

[vivid vessel]

3h 35

hm

waht time does m+ season start

its 5 am no ?

[keen belfry]

servers are gonna be downa long time that day

[vivid vessel]

not for eu dawg

[keen belfry]

eu so cringe

[vivid vessel]

its cringe but we dont get no downtime

i can wake up at 5 am to play

you cant

noob