#outlaw

1 messages · Page 665 of 1

balmy topaz
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Next they'll put KIR on GCD

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And feitn back on

hasty warren
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blizz don't play outlaw

winter cave
tired marlin
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I guess wee need around 25% haste to have fun..?

winter cave
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I'm hitting about 22% with flask atm it's okay-ish

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will have to see in raid on wednesday

tired marlin
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im constantly out of energy

crimson scarab
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How much haste do you have

tired marlin
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24%

winter cave
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Are you sure you're not making mistakes like wasting opportunity procs

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or building too much CP for dispatchj ?

crimson scarab
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U shouldn’t be that energy starved

tired marlin
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hmm probs rotation issues then

alpine smelt
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Do you use blade rush on CD ?

winter cave
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also blade flurry at 0 cp on cd in AoE in dungeons

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It does happen for me to be starved in dungeons sometimes

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but it's usually short

tired marlin
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ja blade rush

winter cave
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also running Flickering Steel instead of Thief's versatility helps

tired marlin
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always on that boi

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but okay could then just be rotation, good to know

crimson scarab
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Consult the outlaw FAQ, everything is well explained there

mighty pivot
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what now buddy

vivid vessel
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nah its fine i actually didnt need you

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i wanted to know if you could hook into a frame to know when the size change

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the response took 5 min

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in the wiki

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so was alright

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ty tho

past sphinx
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whats our honest thoughts for outlaw so far?

balmy topaz
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Gameplay it's personal preference

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I prefer crackshot gameplay but

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I liked perma AR

past sphinx
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does energy starvation get better at 25% haste?

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feels fkn awful to level with ngl

balmy topaz
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Ye and with the right talents and haste it's fine

normal forge
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!fuu

ornate heathBOT
tired marlin
crimson scarab
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On Wednesday would you guys be running outlaw or sub for the raids?

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I don’t imagine any other changes would occur until then

normal forge
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i tried sub yesterday for the first time in the expac and liked how their apex talent works

dense bramble
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i am undecided between rogue/fury/unholy/frost dk i want just fun to play / feel good rotation and high numbers in aoe/cleave and i am not sure where these specs sit in aoe/cleave dps does anyone have numbers? i want to run high myth+ keys mainly

tired marlin
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AH

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you can just cross rogue out

dense bramble
crimson scarab
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What’s the exact name of the addon because for some reason I can’t find atrocity essentials in curse forge

torn lichen
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Isn’t that his paywalled shit?

earnest matrix
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you get it as part of the UI bundle of atrocity (which is paywalled)

normal forge
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is there a way to make keybinds to be spec specific?

crimson scarab
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Oh shit didn’t know that

torn lichen
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Yeah fuck him and that ui

crimson scarab
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Then is it somehow possible to display the feint, evasion and cloak buff like that without the paywalled addon?

torn lichen
crimson scarab
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it feels like im using a separate addon for every single icon on my screen

torn lichen
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Well arc is full cdm

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so you’d use it for all the cd tracking

crimson scarab
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im using ayije cdm currently

earnest matrix
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with ayije cdm i think you can setup different buff groups which can be positioned seperately

torn lichen
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idk if that allows for what you want

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Maybe someone else can help

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Like when fient or cloak is active, i have the active icon floating right next to my toon

crimson scarab
earnest matrix
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part of the overview: Buff separation - split buffs into separate groups with per group options/anchors

crimson scarab
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yeah

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i literally just figured it out

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😄

earnest matrix
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currently at work, so i cant really help in depth

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but hit me up in like 6 hours if you're still struggling 😄

crimson scarab
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im setting it up as we speak

earnest matrix
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king

crimson scarab
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finally it worked

image.png
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thanks for the tips tho ^^

vivid vessel
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@mighty pivot

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you there cuh

mighty pivot
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@vivid vessel you there bruh

vivid vessel
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so

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do you know how devtool works or

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or maybe its a lua question idk

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when i add something in devtools

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are the things inside it copies

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or pointers

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to things

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you know what i mean or

mighty pivot
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pointers basically

vivid vessel
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ok

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so i could open devtool and check something

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and the things in the arrays could be different

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than at the moment i added it

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right

mighty pivot
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It should update to changes. Or clicking the item should update it if it doesn't automatically

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You don't need to readd

vivid vessel
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i see ye

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no lol its more like

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i dont want it to update

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in this situation

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i wanted to see the state of something

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at the moment i added it to devtool

mighty pivot
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Does it update in between adding it and checking it in devtool? as in, will your frame change before you have time to check it in devtool?

vivid vessel
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ye

mighty pivot
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I never had need for this use case tbh. Why do you need that?

vivid vessel
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eh its kinda whatever its just a curiosity thing

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i have other ways to fix my problem

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i wanted to understand better how it worked

mighty pivot
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It might be easier to print the state you care about

vivid vessel
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but i dont need to

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ye

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its just cause im trying to hook a weak aura to something in ayjee cdm

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and obviously

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i need to do it after the ayjee thing has been all setuped

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so its a bit annoying

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you get my use case

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but ye i dont need it that much

mighty pivot
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can't you just hook your shit after a function of that addon? Or is it not accessible?

vivid vessel
vivid vessel
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you can hook to functions of an addon?

mighty pivot
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if they are not private to the addon (they usually are)

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unless it fires some custom event

left sequoia
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hello all! are we getting another spark tomorrow?

mighty pivot
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you get a spark every reset

left sequoia
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we should craft weapons i imagine? 1 sword 1 dagger?

mighty pivot
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offhand is whatever unless you also play dagger specs

left sequoia
gloomy adder
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Am I smoking crack or can hidden opportunity not still be decent even if it doesn’t double hit because of how much amp you can get on builders

keen belfry
gloomy adder
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But with correct talents ar up and rtb 2 an ambush is doing 500 ap every time versus sinister strike doing 322 ap 70% of the time

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Doesn’t make sense to me

keen belfry
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Ambush no proc

mighty pivot
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because it cannot double strike, ambush doesn't do that much more average damage than SS, and you don't get that many casts anyway because they nerfed both the proc rate from fth and subterfuge is dead

keen belfry
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There is more to builders than just their AP mhm

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Nice nr well said

gloomy adder
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explains reasoning why it could mathematically work despite not double striking
it’s bad because it can’t double strike

Aye well said

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No offence

keen belfry
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Big

mighty pivot
keen belfry
vivid vessel
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and then weak aura for my ressources

mighty pivot
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You spend 2 talent points to only rarely do more spender damage

vivid vessel
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and all the little fun things

keen belfry
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Nice I may try it tn

vivid vessel
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i still have things i dont like about it

gloomy adder
vivid vessel
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  • you cant center the duration text on buff bars
  • you cant change individual colors of buff bars
  • you cant only show buff icon when missing
  • you cant remove the colored overlays on cooldowns (out of range, out of energy, not usable etc)
  • the sizes are sometimes restricting, 20px for icons for example can be too big in certain cases
  • you cant to anchor things to whatever we want
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and also

gloomy adder
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Clearly the only thing I can do is test it more in game

vivid vessel
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this

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cause its cds he created himself

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and i guess skill issue

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for charges its greyed out

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even tho i have a charge ready

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you could instead do that with another cdm group

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but cdm does not track dwarf !

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how silly of blizzard !

gloomy adder
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Btw am I being a dipshit or how is audacity proc rate nerfed when you’re perma 70% opportunity with new rtb

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Was it really higher than 70 I can’t remember

mighty pivot
vivid vessel
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you dont have 70% chance to proc

mighty pivot
keen belfry
vivid vessel
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its 70% of idk how much chance we have rn

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50% or smth

keen belfry
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Isn’t HO 80%

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Or am I misremembering

vivid vessel
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fuck if i know

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need to read the talent for that

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i aint hovering ho

gloomy adder
gloomy adder
keen belfry
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One FTH?!

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One fth ho build needs to be released to the public

gloomy adder
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It sounds weird yeah but it actually makes the rotation feel kinda good because you can stack and cast multiple pistol shots consecutively

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I have probably cooked too hard but it feels decent to me

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Being able to cast 2 pistols in a row because helps guarantee ambushes btw

keen belfry
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You can do that as 2 fth tho

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Pistol shot stacks “twice” with 2 fth

gloomy adder
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Can waste cps though whereas with 1 fth you never do

keen belfry
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You can just presss pistol shot then finisher then pistol shot

gloomy adder
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One of the goals here is more energy efficiency

keen belfry
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I think you’re looking at this very short sighted

gloomy adder
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In the sense that with a bit of haste we’ll probably never have energy problems you’re probably right hahah

mighty pivot
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Spending FtH twice in a row as HO is only 80% chance to get audacity (1- 0.44^2)

gloomy adder
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Are you sure

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It’s your ss opportunity proc rate it matches not ambush

keen belfry
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There may be some cooked ass builds dmg dmg wise that feel “better” energy wise and if that’s what u want all power to ya cuh

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But this build sounds like it’s gonna be 20% behind

gloomy adder
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With talents fatebound and rtb your ss opportunity proc rate should be 70%

gloomy adder
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I’m just interested in ideas that sound a bit fucking stupid ngl

keen belfry
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We all played 1fth last season

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It was dmg gain for reasons you are not talking about/removed from the game

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Fan the hammer worked differently before and we had to take precise cuts = could take 1fth

gloomy adder
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Hindsight is 20/20 obviously

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Go back in time and explain it to everyone before people understood

keen belfry
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What does that have to do with anything I just said

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Are we just giving out sagely advice rn

icy cedar
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i just found blizzard's text to speech cdm alerts

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roll the bones between the eyes

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thank you microsoft sam

old cobalt
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i always played assa or sub in the past years, what exactly is outlaw holding back ? i would love to finaly try it out

gloomy adder
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Sorry if it was unclear the point I’m trying to make was that I remember people saying 1 fth sounded dumb when people first started trying to explain why it was good last season

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So explaining in detail why it was correct misses the point

icy cedar
keen belfry
icy cedar
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ass is behind

old cobalt
icy cedar
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yes

old cobalt
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no diff ?

gloomy adder
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It’s apparently good

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Better even?

old cobalt
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damn

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crafted a dagger already thats why i ask

gloomy adder
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Read upwards a bit Zac was talking about this earlier today

keen belfry
mighty pivot
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Also when you account for energy cost, ambush is only like 20% more efficient damage dealer than SS (ambush 5,56% per energy point, SS 4.62%)

keen belfry
mighty pivot
ornate heathBOT
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A dagger offhand is ~1% better than a slow weapon mostly because of cs Zero In, and also slightly more instantpoison Instant Poison procs. Energy is not affected by offhand speed.

It is possible large ilvl differences can matter more than this bonus so use raidbots Raidbots Top Gear when in doubt.

gloomy adder
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Obviously a lot of things that sound stupid actually will be stupid but that’s the fun of theory crafting isn’t it

old cobalt
gloomy adder
keen belfry
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I see, but yes trading 1 fth for precise cuts made sense. Trading 1 fth for HO in 2026 doesn’t ya know

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But gg good chats

gloomy adder
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I guess it’s just doomed because talent tree, only other thing you can drop if you want 2 fth is dragonbone dice which doesn’t seem worth

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Feel like pure shit lads just want hidden opportunity back

keen belfry
vapid sundial
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Cuz sims are meaningless

icy cedar
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sims

vivid vessel
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no they arent

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if sims says sub is simming higher than outlaw

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you can bet one thing

vapid sundial
lime lake
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outlaw tier

quiet ore
gloomy adder
vivid vessel
gloomy adder
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Beefier ambushes and btes

vivid vessel
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thats me

icy cedar
vivid vessel
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like

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its so hard to get outlaw weapons

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compared to sub or sin

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litteraly alone slurping down daggers

keen belfry
vivid vessel
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while everyone is fighting over swords

vapid sundial
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I got something you can slurp on

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Fr

vivid vessel
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oh oh oh

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surprise surprise

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daggers second boss

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easy sub tier for the boys

vapid sundial
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Where haste

vivid vessel
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how do i know if i did preys on my char

icy cedar
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randoms or non-randoms

vivid vessel
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oh nvm its not the rng ones that gives loot

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right

icy cedar
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the rng ones give 15 vet crests if you choose out of 4 possible options

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regular ones give loot

mighty pivot
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first two only

icy cedar
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why havent they fixed grappling hook yet

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like did they give two charges because they know one is always gonna not work

mighty pivot
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outlaw is complete, the dev will return in tlt

vapid sundial
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It's never getting fixed

fossil lintel
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Misblinks have been a thing since vanilla as well

gloomy adder
vapid sundial
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Due to fucking OPEN WORLD content

nova sinew
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Surely dh won’t need that on their fancy new int spec right?

river wing
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DHs can't even roll need on that dagger anyway, I think

mystic berry
errant fractal
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!fuu

ornate heathBOT
mystic berry
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Tbf I havent had hook bugs for awhile now

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Occasionally I do

wintry solar
mighty pivot
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they already deleted ace in practice

hasty warren
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popo wants combat rogue

placid ocean
mighty pivot
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popo = ||oppo||

copper radish
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SND still trigger on dispatch or would you make us press it

wintry solar
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I want SL outlaw in its entirety

zinc briar
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Are u sure that we have to dispatch with 5cp when we got bte on cd? :S

wintry solar
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As FB yes

wintry solar
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I'm making commentary on how blizz hates Outlaw, not that I want it that way

rancid bone
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should I craft a dagger OH as first craft if I plan to play all specs?

mighty pivot
zinc briar
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@vivid vessel what do u think about dispatch with 5cp instead of getting 7

normal forge
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our problem starts when we get "one of a kind" as our RTB buff, we are too weak with that buff, and not strong enough with "jackpot", imo.

proven warren
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i feel that, feels like i do healer dps with one of a kind but not as strong as Thanos with jackpot like in the past

hasty warren
wintry solar
mystic berry
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There will be bad rolls and good rolls

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otherwise there is no point in the rng

potent ore
# vivid vessel

perfect, then we can craft outlaw weapon, and if they suck, dagger from 2nd boss it is

proven warren
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my only gripe with RtB is it being a gcd, i feel like it would help a bit with it being off

mystic berry
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im convinced that sleight of hand is pure placebo

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And no one can convince me otherwise

mystic berry
normal forge
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yeah, some of our talents should make us able to always get level 2 or up on rtb buffs

mystic berry
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prep and rtb have no place being gcd

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Its abysmal design

proven warren
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its still better than old RtB where you had to spend combo points on it as well, man what a time

wintry solar
#

Take me back....

cursive gyro
vapid sundial
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paradise city?

copper radish
proven warren
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bfa azerite traits

vapid sundial
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are you perchance looking for a place where girls are pretty

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popo

vapid sundial
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s3 outlaw was super fun

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but super shit

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i hated s2

copper radish
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Double Lego was 🔥

normal forge
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for me undermine season, s2, was the giga chad epic edition of outlaw

misty anvil
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is there any like analyzer to show if im doing okay in dungeons? i know m0s arent that serious but im new to it all and wanna make sure im not playing like fundamentally wrong. idk if you can even use overall dmg done at the end of a dungeon bc of variance and all but i just did a magisters terrace and had 55k overall dps

mystic berry
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Your best benchmark is "can I beat mages in long fights?"

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since every group has a mage now

wintry solar
#

Oooooooo please take me home

crimson scarab
mystic berry
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fitting

crimson scarab
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it hasnt been for quite some time im pretty sure

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last time I used it for outlaw was back in SL

normal forge
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im starting to doubt myself, i dont know if i wanna play law anymore after playing sub yesterday

crimson scarab
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i think outlaw is a lot of fun

mystic berry
crimson scarab
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and law dmg is quite good currently

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in m0s

mystic berry
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After doing a single dungeon as sub and nearly falling asleep

crimson scarab
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for me sub is super boring, same as sin

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i only play sub for pvp

normal forge
mystic berry
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I wouldnt be impressed rn

solar gyro
#

Pad damage is still damage xD

crimson scarab
#

at the end of the day, just play whatever is more fun to you 😄

mystic berry
gloomy adder
crimson scarab
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its still so early to say if sub will so much superior to law or vice versa

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raiding hasnt started

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m+ hasnt started

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its purely speculation

cursive gyro
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On beta outlaw was king. Using this information I will bandwagon outlaw until next expac.

gloomy adder
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Sims say outlaw better at 250 and 290 but don’t trust the robot

normal forge
cursive gyro
#

You know why outlaw didn't get patch notes? You can't fix perfection.

crimson scarab
gloomy adder
#

They ruined sub yeah

crimson scarab
#

outlaw is more dynamic and it just appeals more to me

gloomy adder
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The only fun bit of sub was lining up cds intelligently and that isn’t even a thing any more

crimson scarab
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as far as im aware for sub, you need to ideally allign stech with dance

mint ether
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which is brainless

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it's one button on a short cooldown

gloomy adder
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Couldn’t put it better myself

normal forge
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i dont think they ruined sub, the good thing about sub is u can plan your CD very well, u can delay to use in the right window, so you can plan, not just react to "oh this btn is up for clicking",

U can deicide, do i want to wait for two stacks or dance or not? should i save this for burst phase or not,

and in raids, when u know the avg time ur guild is killing bosses u can plan exactly when to use ur cds

gloomy adder
#

You simply save stec for your next dance and never use it not in dance it’s not cerebral in the slightest

crimson scarab
cursive gyro
normal forge
cursive gyro
#

How do we feel about the petko build in m+? Dropping ace entirely for the left side talents

gloomy adder
crimson scarab
#

but if we drop ace you cant get grand melee?

normal forge
gloomy adder
#

My ducking god I love pulling out the blicky for big crits

quiet ore
#

so right side boss of nexus-point xenas, nyssara, how long y'all willing to hold adr for to align it with the light beam?

normal quail
#

tracking the fatebound coins with CDM is pointless right? rotation doesn't change at all?

gloomy adder
mystic berry
#

I wouldnt use anything from him

gloomy adder
cursive gyro
crimson scarab
gloomy adder
#

How would you get grand melee from ace you don’t want 2 point in it anyway

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Haha

mystic berry
normal forge
# cursive gyro

i dont know, i feel like dropping zero in is not a good idea

wintry solar
mystic berry
#

No wonder he rated us so low

gloomy adder
# cursive gyro

Looks even worse than the hidden opportunity build I’m trying to cook

mystic berry
#

Guy made the worst possible build

cursive gyro
#

Sims better than standard.

mystic berry
#

@gaunt phoenix come here

crimson scarab
#

ill sim it now and see whats the difference for my rogue

cursive gyro
#

Yeah if it's trash it's trash but I've run it a bit and it feels nice.

normal forge
#

there is no ace

wintry solar
#

I like how I don't run out of energy unless I die or fuck up

normal forge
#

that build kinda favors cp builders instead of finishers

mystic berry
#

Yeah, nah, not taking the opinion of petko over the rogue disc tcers

gloomy adder
#

I refuse to believe 2 points heavy hitter is better than ace and zero

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That can’t be real

gaunt phoenix
#

It's not that bad with very low crit

crimson scarab
#

i also would find it super odd

gaunt phoenix
#

But going the crit should be the way

cursive gyro
#

Yeah. I think it would fall off hard as we get gear.

normal forge
#

on his build he is creating synergy between flickering steels and find an opening, and forgo zero in , crit on bte and ace for that

cursive gyro
#

But until end of s1 it'll at the very least be close.

quiet ore
#

it basically never gets to stack to max, no?

mystic berry
#

This is anti apex no?

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You are not stacking first apex point as much

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without ace

cursive gyro
#

If anything it leans into apex more

normal forge
#

yeah, apex benefits from ace , i guess

gloomy adder
#

Surely it still gets a fair amount of stacks any time you don’t reset cd because you have so much attack speed

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And when it does reset it’s great but it’s not exactly reliable

mystic berry
#

A reset is a reset, you will be getting less stacks

crimson scarab
#

for my toon, the petko build is 56,6k dps and with zero in and ace 58,3k

mystic berry
#

Like solo said, you probably have more crit than camby

crimson scarab
#

so the bte focused build is better

mystic berry
#

Hence why he simmed better

crimson scarab
#

i have 25% without any buffs

mystic berry
#

And you worse

cursive gyro
#

Think I'm running 22% crit atm

normal forge
#

so it will most likely favor that

mystic berry
#

how? petko dont change rotation

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It just takes out ace proc

cursive gyro
crimson scarab
#

i did my sim also with 0 bufs and not a single enchant/gem

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that can also play a role

cursive gyro
gloomy adder
#

Is there a world where we take cold blood over supercharger

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I hate supercharger being on rush

cursive gyro
gloomy adder
cursive gyro
cinder relic
gloomy adder
normal quail
#

QQ in M+. should outlaw prio blade flurry over SS/Opportunity for combo point generation in packs, or do you only press it when aoe buff drops off?

gloomy adder
#

Surely there’s something to be said for reaching a guaranteed crit on bte

gaunt phoenix
#

it's +10% crit only

gaunt phoenix
gloomy adder
#

Yeah but combined with zero in

normal quail
cinder relic
#

The added cdr and damage from supercharger is really good

normal forge
#

can we earn hero crests next week? i mean, this week wednesday

west ridge
#

from heroic

pastel hound
#

Yea should be able to get them from heroic raid and maybe delves and nightmare pray?

copper radish
#

Yall excited for some heroic raids and some Friday notes for outlaw? 📝

normal forge
#

and we gonna get an extra spark this week as well?

copper radish
#

Yeah get our second crafted

normal forge
#

ok ty

copper radish
#

Keys don’t start till next Tuesday tho right?

normal forge
#

yep

pastel hound
#

Correct

copper radish
#

Just more M0 and heroic raids

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And tier 8 delve

normal forge
#

but m0 are going to be daily, and maybe drop champion gear? idk

copper radish
#

They should

novel oasis
#

Hello guys!
new here!
What does mean during bubble, please?

image.png
cursive gyro
#

It means the big golden orb that surrounds you after you put the key in

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During the countdown

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So AR before the key, then SnD after they put the key in

normal forge
#

can we get Prismatic Focusing Iris in something that is not a weapon? how we going for embelishment without crafted weapon? dual lining?

novel oasis
#

thank you

quiet ore
novel oasis
#

Is there any macros I should have please?

carmine mountain
#

The FAQ here says to put Ren'dorei on weapon but wowhead says Jan'alai, do we sim ourselves or is there a clear winner?

river wing
#

apparently they're pretty close and you gotta sim

carmine mountain
#

alright thanks

still matrix
#

There is actually way more cleave in the raid bosses than i thought

#

maybe outlaw claps cheeks

balmy topaz
#

We usually do well week 1 tbh

#

Just pray that these fights last long enough

still matrix
#

I'd imagine they will, we aren't going to gigga burst them week 1 really

balmy topaz
#

Not first raid of an expansion usually no

#

But you never know with blizzard garf_sit

wintry solar
#

2nd raid for us please

frail veldt
#

We all know how that turns out

unkempt dew
#

So

#

Are we meta yet?

cursive gyro
zinc briar
#

we will be middle table in raid and m+

#

then not, we are not meta

cursive gyro
zinc briar
#

i could say that we will be one of the worst dps in raid as always

#

i think im having a good atittude

cursive gyro
zinc briar
#

being optimist

unkempt dew
#

I don’t raid

#

So i don’t care about that

zinc briar
#

to play with pick ups outlaw will be fine

#

coz we are fine in all situations except giga big pulls

#

and now we dont need stealth

cursive gyro
craggy barn
#

dont even need to do that

frail veldt
zinc briar
#

or we use tricks to uncapped dps to kill him 🙂

craggy barn
#

tricks wont prevent giga opener burst from devokers

#

they still die to threat

cursive gyro
#

Wouldn't want them losing threat to the tank

craggy barn
#

they wont

#

even without tricks

#

only prot war

#

cuz aoe taunt

winter falcon
#

y'all raiding as outlaw?

worthy surge
#

what bosses should we play aoe spec on

zinc briar
#

and u are forced to play sub with 2 buttons

sterile dune
#

But sub has no cleave or aoe

winter falcon
#

Which mainhand are yall crafting?

stoic wagon
#

With void or hunt embellish but void more consistent

keen belfry
#

!fuu

ornate heathBOT
worthy surge
#

its just kinda lame that we cant use it as our offhand later on because daggers are actually better in the OH

stoic wagon
worthy surge
#

just craft a dagger

#

at that point

prisma lantern
frail veldt
#

!oh

ornate heathBOT
#

A dagger offhand is ~1% better than a slow weapon mostly because of cs Zero In, and also slightly more instantpoison Instant Poison procs. Energy is not affected by offhand speed.

It is possible large ilvl differences can matter more than this bonus so use raidbots Raidbots Top Gear when in doubt.

stoic wagon
#

It’s only 1%

frail veldt
#

its not like sub

#

where its like a 5+% loss

#

to use a slow offhand

prisma lantern
#

1% is kind of a lot.

worthy surge
#

I mean even at current ilvl its over a 1k diff in the sim which is actually more than 1%

frail veldt
#

could you link that sim?

worthy surge
#

I just simmed dungeon slice on raidbots you can do it its not difficult

stoic wagon
#

It depends what’s is your goal

frail veldt
stoic wagon
#

Do you want to clear hm week one or on multiple weeks

#

Not same need d

worthy surge
frail veldt
#

yeah that looks right

worthy surge
#

its definitely enough to warrant a dagger over a slow weapon

frail veldt
#

depends what you have available

#

you can outweigh that 1% with not that much ilvl difference

#

or better stats

#

you definitely shouldnt be ignoring slow weapons for your offhand

#

at least we can mog the dagger back to a sword worst case lol

calm osprey
#

Any idea why Larias' Raider's guide section on crafting specifically says Outlaw rogues should check their discord, as if we aren't just crafting a weapon like everyone else?

worthy surge
#

a 217 dagger sims higher than a 237 slow weapon

#

in my offhand

frail veldt
#

yeah so if you have a myth crafted slow weapon itll be worth using in offhand probably

#

though tbh spending a craft on offhand in general isnt that worth

frail veldt
#

also for topics like grimmgrin is talking about

worthy surge
#

Im pretty sure my next craft is an offhand dagger

frail veldt
#

where if you do any time playing sub/assa

#

then you might consider crafting other things

worthy surge
#

I dont think so

frail veldt
#

I mean tbh a lot of the outlaw players in here arent crafting slow weapon first haha

#

theyre just doing dagger

worthy surge
#

if a 20 ilvl difference is still 0.3% ahead of a slow weapon

cinder relic
#

Offhand dagger is a bad craft unless u intend to multispec

frail veldt
#

if I were a raider and I thought I would be playing sub/assa some of prog

#

Id just craft dagger

#

and hope to loot slow mainhand

#

but yeah if you hard main outlaw then your crafts are prob slow mainhand then boots/belt or whatever we find out sims best as next

#

def not dagger 2nd

worthy surge
#

this is logic I dont really understand by the time you get your first M+ vault you have your third craft available

frail veldt
#

so regardless of drops a dagger is a bad 2nd craft

worthy surge
#

whats the margin of difference

frail veldt
#

idk youd have to sim it

#

its been this way for a while so I dont know the numbers exactly

carmine mountain
#

boots or ring for 2nd craft right?

frail veldt
#

only some of our abilities use offhand weapon damage iirc

#

dispatch, ss, etc use only mainhand

#

bte/ps use combined

#

from the man himself

keen belfry
#

How much agi does a weapon have relative to other slots? I rememebr it was way lower than I would’ve guessed

frail veldt
#

its super low yeah

#

cuz weapons are about weapon damage for melee classes

keen belfry
#

Like it was less than gloves or something like that

frail veldt
#

as opposed to casters who have giga mainstat

#

but yeah since our breakdown has bte/ps as much lower than in tww our offhand ilvl lost some value

worthy surge
#

I mean I guess thats the argument for why youd craft an armor piece because the agi is more important and you dont craft a piece that could potentially get replaced with tier

frail veldt
#

yeah exactly

keen belfry
#

Given stats I wonder if we will craft a crit haste ring soon

frail veldt
#

so for hard outlaw main its mainhand->off pieces

#

yeah you might target pieces that dont exist in the loot pool

keen belfry
#

I’m gonna make my guild give me the 300 haste ring

worthy surge
#

its gotta drop first

#

"rare" drop

#

"very rare" even

frail veldt
keen belfry
#

Ty

unkempt dew
#

Is there a 300 haste ring?

zinc briar
#

!stats

ornate heathBOT
#

A properly geared Outlaw's stat volume will look like Vers > Haste* > Crit > Mastery.

*But Haste has a **requirement ** because adr Adrenaline Rush scales your GCD based on haste, up to 25%.

The kir_charger KIR build wants ~19% haste from rating, so it becomes 25% after talents_alacrity Alacrity. 18% or 20% is close enough and not a problem. Don't play KIR with lower than 18% haste.

The ho_charger HO build gets takem Take 'em by Surprise, so its haste requirement is technically ~9%., but it continues to want haste just for energy. You will likely optimize towards 14-18% haste, not a strict number, just sim.

You need to use raidbots Raidbots Top Gear to determine what haste pieces to use. You can also get ~4.2% haste from a flask. This can be equal or better than Vers flask if you need it for either build.

frail veldt
#

umm

#

that looks out of date

worthy surge
#

this seems outdated

#

ya

zinc briar
#

yes

frail veldt
#

lolol

craggy barn
#

solo!

frail veldt
#

@gaunt phoenix !stats lookin sus

cursive gyro
#

Too late. I'm already regemming.

frail veldt
#

hahaha

zinc briar
#

hahahha

worthy surge
novel oasis
#

Why please?

Screenshot_2026-03-16-18-27-31-415_com.discord-edit.jpg
craggy barn
#

we dont take any ambush talents that would make ambush worth using

worthy surge
#

ambush cant proc opportunity

#

with current spec

frail veldt
#

it doesnt interact with our kit unless we take the talents for it

#

and the talents suck lol

novel oasis
#

Ah okay cuz i thought of the 2 combo points that it generates

sterile dune
#

as outlaw does it matter if u use swords or axes?

mint ether
#

it doesn't have the other mechanical hooks that SS does

novel oasis
#

And pls where do outlaw shine? High keys? Low keys? Big packs small packs?....

worthy surge
#

mh type doesnt matter

#

as long as its slow

jolly geyser
#

Just make sure its agi

frail veldt
worthy surge
#

I think well be fine in high keys we are a little squishy though I definitely feel it

#

not pushing for top in the world but I think well be ok

frail veldt
#

Yeah im a little worred about some dungeons like AA where our target cap is gona really hurt us

#

and without PC we dont get that nice clean-up damage value which I think was quite useful esp in more puggy groups

static crescent
#

That mostly matters for pug bragging, first boss ie. is pad paradise

#

But I strongly think we will absolutely be dogshit without tuning for m+

hearty stump
#

Whats the command for the Sim spreadsheet again

#

!sims

ornate heathBOT
hearty stump
#

Or does that no longer exist

craggy barn
#

!fuu

ornate heathBOT
hearty stump
#

Ty

cinder relic
#

Pro tip to all gamers, u can make hearty personal food if u level cooking

#

also these teas stack with food buff, so you can get free movement speed buffs for any content ur doing as well

#

These all stack with food buff

image.png
river wing
jolly geyser
#

Forgot the teas actually

cinder relic
#

Only takes level 35 cooking to get this craft

craggy barn
#

cooking is good!

#

a home cooked meal is better than going out most times

craggy quiver
#

What's the best tea?

dusty blaze
#

Ty Guy...didn't know that

craggy quiver
#

I haven't even look

cinder relic
#

They give u profession stats, and then speed

#

so it doesnt matter

balmy topaz
#

It takes 6k gold to get cooking to 100

craggy quiver
#

I see ty

craggy barn
#

the cheapest one if u dont care about profession

frail veldt
cinder relic
#

Yeh

wintry leaf
#

Yall make a tracker for RtB results?

cinder relic
#

Time to craft

image.png
balmy topaz
#

Like the old WA?

wintry leaf
#

Like. So it's not so hard to see if you rolled the one or a two or a three etc

fervent garden
#

is cooking an actual profession, or tertiary like fishing? i forget.

balmy topaz
#

You can put it on the CDM

craggy barn
#

tertiary

wintry leaf
#

Kk

dusty blaze
#

Wot number rating is 25% haste exactly anyone know?

wintry leaf
#

Is slight of hand a waste? It says 20% bonus chance but it still seems like I get the same results

cinder relic
#

we dont go sleight atm no

#

I wouldnt call it a waste though

wintry leaf
#

Ok. Ty

keen belfry
#

I run sleight

worthy surge
dusty blaze
#

kk i better sim too

worthy surge
#

just remember to take off bloodlust and other buffs you probably wont have if youre simming dungeon slice

trail cape
#

What are people typically first crafting?

fervent garden
#

i went MH first craft

gaunt phoenix
lament island
#

sorry if i missed this im new, but is ther a best talent tree to run for M+ not sure if wowhead is accurate or what.. somtimes it varies

crimson scarab
#

you can always consult the outlaw faq page, there is a link to a ST and M+ builds

frail veldt
trail galleon
#

!up

ornate heathBOT
mystic berry
#

sleight of hand = snake oil

keen belfry
#

I get more jackpots so I say vibes W

frail veldt
worthy surge
#

I dont really think you can drop anything for it in the single target build

keen belfry
worthy surge
#

youre giving up find an opening?

keen belfry
#

Mhm

#

It was a literal gain back in prepatch iirc

#

Not prepatch

#

Beta*

frail veldt
#

Does the sim accurately do sleight?

#

I thought we kinda didn't know

keen belfry
#

I don’t think we know yet

#

It used to be a pinned message

#

Things may have changed since then but I’ve been running sleight all xpac

worthy surge
#

idk but find an opening feels really good on longer encounters with high uptime I guess you could drop it if theres downtime due to specific mechanics I could see that

keen belfry
#

I think my sleight build was specifically aoe so we could get capstones easily

#

I don’t remember if I brought it up for st

#

It also allows for 2 dispatcher + prep and kir

#

In ST

#

This or 2 Ace, I run 2 Ace for vibes too

IMG_6859.png
worthy surge
#

idk I really like FaO I wish I could be specced into it all the time

keen belfry
#

It’s biggest issue is it’s behind 2 heavy shitter points

#

It’s a good talent

potent ore
#

so outlaw is crafting boots right

frail veldt
#

Yeah but as a 3 point talent essentially it's not great

keen belfry
#

But I’d rather have dispatcher and sleight than 2 heavy farter

frail veldt
#

Esp in aoe

keen belfry
#

Mhm

mystic berry
#

Heavy hitter being 2 pts mostly make me seethe due to fao

worthy surge
keen belfry
#

That’s what I run I run 2 ace

#

But it’s not really better, I think 2 ace is a small loss but I like it

worthy surge
#

I mean the main advantage I see with this is that you can hybrid a bit if a fights not fully aoe not fully st you could go dancing steel as well

novel oasis
#

!macro

ornate heathBOT
#

Macroing gs is relatively "ok", be aware that it wont ever be entirely optimal: target swapping in m+ or putting it on a dying target for example. You can macro it to all your abilities.

worthy surge
#

or deft

keen belfry
#

You will chose between the movement speed or deft

worthy surge
#

true

#

yeah were just back to the full aoe build at that point basically

keen belfry
#

Solo won’t be happy with spreading the 2 ace build

#

So don’t run it

worthy surge
#

on pure ST i dont see myself not running FaO unless we somehow get more energy gen

#

due to some change

keen belfry
#

2 dispatcher helps with energy tho

patent totem
#

!wa

ornate heathBOT
keen belfry
#

And with sleight u may get more 3s/4s buffs

worthy surge
#

3s and 4s only help with energy gen in the sense that you get AR back faster and spend a gcd on BR more frequently

keen belfry
#

Which is more energy mhm

worthy surge
#

but Ive hit dummies where im on a 3 or a 4 and im out of energy

#

and it feels terrible

#

without FaO

keen belfry
#

That happens every build

worthy surge
#

and im literally praying for a proc on every ss

keen belfry
#

You still have like 60% proc

#

It ain’t like before

worthy surge
#

yeah I understand what youre saying but ive legit sat on the dummy for like over an hour straight multiple times and it feels way better with FaO than without

#

granted no encounter is ever going to be an hour

#

with 100% uptime

#

but I feel the difference

keen belfry
#

It’s all preference

#

What’s your build? The faq one?

worthy surge
#

yeah both my builds are the standard ones but with thief's instead of flickering

keen belfry
#

Run flickering and try out the energy then cuh

worthy surge
#

I mean maybe flickering with 2/2 dispatch

#

idk it really does sound like a preference at this point

keen belfry
#

Mhm

#

I like sleight

dawn tundra
#

Hey, question: If something is a WoWhead BiS but it doesn't have the stats I'm looking for, do I ignore it?

worthy surge
#

BiS is based on the rest of your gear also being bis

cinder relic
mighty pivot
#

it's about the journey, not the destination Okay

dawn tundra
#

Or is it one-in-the-same?

cinder relic
#

It's already hard to suggest a bis list in general, and even mroe so when ur spec has "breakpoints" u need to optimize around

#

Bis is only bis when U have you know, fully upgraded mythic gear

#

Until then, u might need a diff set of items/enchants/etc to get the haste requirements on gear

#

solve todays problems, not tomorrows problems

dawn tundra
#

That's the thing, though. I'm not doing Mythic.

cinder relic
#

Ull still eventually get mythic gear right

#

From the vault and such

vapid sundial
#

Gear can take weeks to get and there will be other combos that are probably pretty close so the difference is negligible

worthy surge
dawn tundra
keen belfry
#

So I trade some builder dmg for fun BTE BTE BTE BTE. gives me a taste of the past

#

🫦

worthy surge
#

idk it was kinda funny I just got like 5 procs in a row

#

and I didnt build

#

I just spammed BtE and I got AR back so fast

#

it was kinda crazy

#

on a 3 roll

mystic berry
keen belfry
#

fast action needs to blow up, spontaneous combustion please

mystic berry
#

Its 1 less dispatch

#

lol

frail veldt
#

And to sim yourself as needed

novel oasis
#

how my damage breakdown should be like? What spells should have the most damage % on dungeons, please?

river wing
#

dungeons? BF like 50%, everything else just feeds into BF for the most part

frail veldt
#

The concept of "bis" is more a recommendation of good items to keep an eye out for

tribal sapphire
#

when do u use keep it rolling?

frail veldt
tribal sapphire
#

perf

frail veldt
near rock
frail veldt
#

Between auto attacks, dispatch, bte

#

They all are very close

worthy surge
uneven reef
#

May i ask if 30k~~ mono target is consistent or am i missing something ?

river wing
#

what ilvl

uneven reef
#

240

river wing
#

yeah that's kinda low

#

like even a dungeon build should probably be able to do maybe 40k without amps? idk, I'm not doing so hot on damage either, but my M+0 runs usually had me doing 40k on bosses, and I'm also 240

misty bridge
#

they should really give 3 scoundrel strikes with coup de grace

proven ocean
uneven reef
#

I deal 30~~ on target dummy

proven ocean
#

@vivid vessel that you

#

?

uneven reef
#

Sub looks so much easier to get a consistent dps

light dune
#

for raid cleave i saw people talking about taking dancing steel or 2nd point in ace to get to GM, was there ever a consensus on which one was better?

jovial dock
#

so are their no crackshot windows anymore ?

lethal oak
#

nah just crack windows now

worthy surge
lethal oak
#

I was at 22k one hand and blindfolded

mighty pivot
#

I was at 69k just bashing @wintry solar 's face on the keyboard

jovial dock
#

aynone have cleaner ui then this i can steal ?

image.png
#

just the cooldown manager stuff

frail veldt
#

wow shaman is mega gamba

image.png
keen belfry
#

It’s dumb that you can just proc tempests now

balmy topaz
#

CDM is Ayije

craggy barn
river wing
# frail veldt wow shaman is mega gamba

isn't 6% pretty low in the grand scheme of things? like I think back in TWW there were multiple specs with variation higher than that by a lot, like 7-9 weren't uncommon and some had 10%+?

pulsar canopy
#

So what will be more dps output in keys with the next balance patch - sub or outlaw?

keen belfry
#

Remember vai?

prisma lantern
worthy surge
#

Youre playin outlaw

prisma lantern
#

Would lean towards OL though for M+.

worthy surge
#

thingsll probably change next week but if absolutely nothing changes with rogue for some reason

#

ur playing outlaw in M+

pulsar canopy
#

Wait am I supposed to play outlaw in m+ ?

#

Sorry I am slow working on 3 hours of sleep in past 48 hours :D

keen belfry
#

Play whatever you want, we don’t know

cinder relic
#

Nobody knows yet

#

Sin has funnel but weak numbers overall, sub has burst but has mid st, outlaw has good everything but no burst and is target capped

vivid forge
#

Please, tell me Sub isnt super ahead of outlaw in raid

keen belfry
#

It might be it might not be

pulsar canopy
frail veldt
#

this is TWW S3

river wing
#

huh

frail veldt
#

were essentially same rng

keen belfry
#

Long story short: it don’t matter we don’t know

worthy surge
#

its true outlaw has typically simmed higher and done less actual damage

frail veldt
pulsar canopy
#

Its so joever

keen belfry
#

Mhm and it might not be joever

pulsar canopy
#

I mean I do play sub atm but getting your DS parried is absolutely depressing

keen belfry
#

But it might be

pulsar canopy
#

PLUS I am a gambler at heart so

frail veldt
vivid forge
#

Idc about sims, its about encounter types, i've reviwed the raid and if adds doesnt die so fast, outlaw might be viable due Sub isnt cleaving with eviscerate anymore

frail veldt
#

eviscerate doesnt cleave with nimble flurry anymore?

#

when did that happen

pulsar canopy
keen belfry
#

Midnight

pulsar canopy
frail veldt
#

isnt nimble flurry % still like double what bladeflurry is

keen belfry
#

Rn

#

No

frail veldt
#

whats it going down to

keen belfry
#

So many false information spreaders in the chat rn

fair spade
#

Having Outlaw downtime is like mega bad right? Isn't that why it always sims really well and then the actual numbers are booty because no one is goign to be doing mechanics perfectly and getting 100% up time.

frail veldt
#

outlaw is hurt by downtime more than most other specs yeah

vivid forge
#

No more eviscerate cleaving

image.png
worthy surge
#

yeah downtime hurts OL more than other specs

frail veldt
#

guess they realized how hard that was gona be to balance

wintry solar
keen belfry
keen belfry
#

Instead of target count stuff

lime lake
#

pressing fan of knives as sub would be very hard

vivid forge
#

Sub now sucks at 2-3-4 targets

frail veldt
#

I see I see

vivid forge
#

While outlaw is fine, and there are raid bosses with that fight style but depends on how much adds will last, if its only Shadow Dance + Sec Tec and they are dead, no way outlaw shines

keen belfry
#

Adds will always eventually die fast as shit

lime lake
#

good thing you have prep to burst them down now

fathom bramble
#

yeah outlaws style of aoe is very rarely present in raid

lime lake
fathom bramble
#

it's why we were so good in keys initially since aoe for most classes was balanced around raid

#

and BF needs to be quite good to compete in raid aoe and that results in insane key damage

#

nowadays we just kind of don't do raid aoe instead to ensure our key damage doesn't go insane 👌

keen belfry
#

Passive cleave is a gift and a crutch

dusk dew
#

Hello! sorry if this has been asked before, but any recommendation for crafted weap/gear for outlaw? or do we hold the sparks for now?

keen belfry
#

U kinda can’t balance it!

fathom bramble
#

our 2/3 target is also dramatically weaker than before so it's a bit worrisome

fathom bramble
frail veldt
#

if we still had PC we could be in a really good position for raid

keen belfry
#

Pc was also a gift and a curse

dusk dew
keen belfry
#

We had to play 1fth because PC existed

fathom bramble
#

to be fair PC was still quite strong

#

needing some kind of damage tradeoff to get it was probably a good thing

vivid forge
fathom bramble
#

probably better than sub, but not exceptionally strong in the grand scheme like we would have been in previous tiers

keen belfry
#

120% BF was sick

#

The dmg we could do in 2 target was banger

fathom bramble
#

2 target BF is all the way down at 36% now so

keen belfry
#

🙂

#

Don’t make me doom lok

craggy barn
#

theres a shield u gotta crush in that fight, maybe sub is just better bc of that pepw

#

sub the notorious shield destroyer

fathom bramble
#

and it has a cost to activate unlike some previous tiers that had this low of BF cleave

vivid forge
craggy barn
#

shrug

#

could be a pain in mythic idk

frail veldt
cinder relic
#

And for reference, sin deals less damage on 3 targets, than outlaw does on 2

#

Outlaw is so clearly the best spec on that fight

#

Unless the avenging wrath damage amp is that valuable, there's like, no reason to play the other specs on that fight atm

fathom bramble
#

avenging wrath damage amp is only 20%

#

while outlaw is clearly the best rogue spec on the fight I think there is a very real chance that specs with even better 2/3 target cleave and spread cleave will take the crown here

#

I'm imagining something like that council fight at the start of DF where all 3 rogue specs were just bad

cinder relic
#

Well sure but Ur always playing a rogue

#

The context is what rogue spec r u playing

fathom bramble
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true

cinder relic
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I'm not saying outlaw is going to be a 5 of on the boss

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But if rogue is played, u have to pick a spec

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That spec isn't sub

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Like full stop

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Unless sin gets a really good death mark in execute with an amp or something yk

sterile dune
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Damn just switched to outlaw

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Way more engaging and fun

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Assa was boring asg

jolly aspen
fathom bramble
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I'm not sure sub is a completely writeoff when it can have 3target so close to laws

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just stealing the fuu sheet builds

frail veldt
fathom bramble
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idk if there is an even better 3 target build available

fossil lintel
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are we going to outperform a little bit in heroic week and then get giga nerfed like always?

sterile dune
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I love the opportunity procs that switches my rotation on the spot as well as restless blade that allows me to try to time when and how to juggle my cds so that im on a roll constantly

frail veldt
sterile dune
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It really feels hard tho

jolly aspen
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i think we are gonna underperform in heroic week and get giga nerfed

sterile dune
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Not super hard but i just dont know what im doing

fathom bramble
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well our tierset is bad so we will probably overperform on heroic week compared to our realistic performance later in the tier

sterile dune
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Assa is braindead

fathom bramble
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we will see what that brings

cinder relic
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Doesn't really change the facts of the matter tho

fathom bramble
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being 4% ahead on paper on 3 targets probably doesn't mean people will play it for 1 fight

sterile dune
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Why ppl cry about outlaw, I think its not that bad, probably top 6-7 of dps atm. Middle of the pack kinda thing

cinder relic
sterile dune
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It will get better when they buff it

cinder relic
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And the fight is 2 target a fair amount

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It's probs like, my guess is like 70% 3 and 30% 2

sterile dune
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Sub is single target and aoe, but worst spec for cleave

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Even assa does better cleave

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Which tells u it was never meant for raiding

proven ocean
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W ragebait

sand dagger
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In opener on wowhead it says our first spender is Dispatch, but why dont we send on BtE first spender?

sterile dune
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Just give it blade flurry

primal holly
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to get slice n dice @sand dagger

jolly aspen
proven ocean
sand dagger
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Ah I see, thank you

jolly aspen
proven ocean
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i mean it was bad but

sterile dune
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Wait u do early dispatch?

proven ocean
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it wasnt bad bad

proven ocean
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cooked

jolly aspen
vivid forge
proven ocean
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i mean im fine with specs not doing absolutely everything

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i like that imo

sterile dune
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Or higher

proven ocean
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but

jolly aspen
proven ocean
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my opinion is

jolly aspen
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cus u used adrenaline rush

proven ocean
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every class should be able to do most things

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not every spec

jolly aspen
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so the first roll will be 2 or higher

proven ocean
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every class

sterile dune
fathom bramble
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I'm just skeptical that being ~5% behind(trickster dungeon build) us is enough to make sub unplayable on the fight

jolly aspen
proven ocean
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and all classes should have a specific spec good at different things to be playable on all kinds of M+ keys

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and raid fights

primal holly
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it's a buff @sterile dune

jolly aspen
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in 2 target

fathom bramble
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like if it's really so downbad that sub is untenable on 2 target than we are 5% better than untenable

sterile dune