It just dropped even more in cata
#outlaw
stuck patrol
stuck patrol
https://web.archive.org/web/20111220112727/http://warcraftrealms.com/census.php
Data one month after Dragon Soul came out
Warlock lmao
jolly geyser
did wotlk beta,was interesting as a young lad
fathom bramble
I don't think rogue will ever be a popular class even if they fix those problems
those probably need to be fixed just for other reasons, but it wouldn't imo make us considerably more popular
cinder relic
Exactly
terse fractal
I feel like rogues prowess in pvp has perpetually made them an afterthought for PvE content
ashen void
what the hell human is such a popular race
cinder relic
I don't think any modern design choices really affect the popularity of rogue atp
Rogue has always been unpopular
Like I don't think the level experience, while bad, actually affects rogues popularity
Cuz even when it was better, it still wasn't played
At least anecdotally, ppl I know in guild just don't like rogue cuz energy is icky
stuck patrol
You might be right, but basically everyone i know say they try to level a rogue but it's not fun so they quit
glass mortar
its a pretty specific fantasy trope that im not sure wows rogue delivers on like other games quite effectively (the assassin archtype) and additionally in wow its very low fantasy
ashen void
"energy icky"
glass mortar
we dont really get flashy spells or effects
rancid silo
i feel like majority of peoples choices comes from visuals and rogue has none.
stuck patrol
Mostly citing energy being slow gen
glass mortar
imo those things lead more to rogues unpopularity then any of the design its had
ashen void
low fantasy owns
glass mortar
also the energy systems just a bit jank for people
other classes have downtime sometimes but the way energy works with quickly dumping all your resources then waiting for more
because of our 1s gcd
ashen void
fuck mages fuck paladins i hate them
fathom bramble
energy also just doesn't interact with the spellqueuewindow in a helpful way
glass mortar
(not outlaws of course but the other specs)
fathom bramble
idk if that contributes a lot to people feeling that energy is icky but it certainly can't be helping
keen belfry
i odnt understand energy
rancid silo
i perfer energy over the alternative
stuck patrol
Wait bar fill
keen belfry
i perfer energy over the alternative
whats the allternative? builders on charge system or
cunning swan
I don't think rogue will ever be a popular class even if they fix those problems
rogue needs more flashy abilities
stuck patrol
is that why people don't like ww monk
WW monk feels more fluid tho
rancid silo
whats the allternative? builders on charge system or
spamming buttons so like havoc or ret
stuck patrol
Tbh I like rogue not being too flashy
jolly geyser
rogues need a "wake of ashes"
glass mortar
does WW have a 1s gcd
all the energy classes used to
im not actually sure if they do
stuck patrol
I played ff14 and the rogue like class is doing huge anime moves with huge explosive animations and I'm like
Tf is going on LMAO
keen belfry
spamming buttons so like havoc or ret
confused, arent these the same thing but with energy you can simply be unable to press
jolly geyser
I just like wake of ashes, so I said that
random stirrup
ninja my beloved
glass mortar
originally energy was designed to be a limiter to spam though
stuck patrol
rogues need a "wake of ashes"
You seen the new blade rush animation?
glass mortar
base classes have a 1.5s gcd scaling with haste
cunning swan
Tbh I like rogue not being too flashy
yeah I just think that it matters a bit for how popular it is. theres definitely some fantasy archetypes that people are into as well
jolly geyser
its aight
glass mortar
energy have a 1.0s not scaling with haste
that meant you could dump more attacks much faster but then you'd run out of energy
that was the original idea anyway
cunning swan
bring back death from above 🙂
rancid silo
confused, arent these the same thing but with energy you can simply be unable to...
they are the same, but with those classes are you constantly smashing it 24/7 all the time where as rogue does or can do it, but at certain intervals
Like for sub I dont need to really do that outside of dance
or sin im pooling
keen belfry
outlaw should be able to press a buytton all the time
stuck patrol
confused, arent these the same thing but with energy you can simply be unable to...
Paladin is held back by their abilities having cds, while rogue is held back by lack of energy
rancid silo
yea but outlaw isnt pressing 1 builder all the time
cinder relic
is that why people don't like ww monk
Probably part of it Imo? But also u gotta remember the like, outrage of what monk represents in wow
rancid silo
ret/hacov generally are pressing 1 builder 24/7
cinder relic
Mop was a big cultural turning point for a lot of ppl. Not like modern, women bad culture war stuff but people thought pandas looked like Disney and were furry bait and cringe yk
glass mortar
i feel like monks are often less played in games
almost every mmo ive played, even dnd
the monk artchtype is just very hit or miss for people imo
stuck patrol
I still think a low damage no energy cost combo point generator would be fun for rogue, but people would hate it
lime lake
panda haters are cringe
glass mortar
(i like it)
keen belfry
ret/hacov generally are pressing 1 builder 24/7
well thats a diff argument of energy vs not energy, but yes i agree id rather have energy than 1 builder
cunning swan
Mop was a big cultural turning point for a lot of ppl. Not like modern, women ba...
vulperas are the real furrybait imo
I guess worgen as well
rancid silo
well thats a diff argument of energy vs not energy, but yes i agree id rather ha...
its not different, cause if u had unlimited energy thats the gameplay loop it would be
covert kestrel
Mop was a big cultural turning point for a lot of ppl. Not like modern, women ba...
women bad
@cinder relic Feb 14, 2026
keen belfry
its not different, cause if u had unlimited energy thats the gameplay loop it wo...
huh
cinder relic
idk if that contributes a lot to people feeling that energy is icky but it certa...
Most ppl I know even who just boost and try rogue just instantly don't like energy and combo points
stuck patrol
Mop was a big cultural turning point for a lot of ppl. Not like modern, women ba...
I didn't like how silly they made them look over being cool
glass mortar
as it stands outlaw is arguably designed for energy to be "pointless"
if you play correctly, and have average rng
you should not run out
mostly
glass mortar
they didnt hit it perfectly for midnight
energy is a punishment mechanism for outlaw
poor play makes u less efficient, then you run out
but also bad rng makes you run out
keen belfry
law should be able to press a button whenever it wants
case closed
lets go home gents
fathom bramble
Most ppl I know even who just boost and try rogue just instantly don't like ener...
maybe it's too much to ask of blizz but maybe the spellqueuewindow should consider if you will have the energy by the time the skill becomes available
stuck patrol
as it stands outlaw is arguably designed for energy to be "pointless"
Ehh, not at the moment. There's definitely some some energy management. We just have gigahaste rn
glass mortar
what energy management r u talking about
jolly geyser
too fast apm specs are bad from profit standpoint
glass mortar
tell me when in ur rotation u ever consider energy for ur next button to press, other then the opener not pressing BR when ur near capped
stuck patrol
what energy management r u talking about
Excluding the tierset for first tier, we have to hold blade rush a bit for better energy management
glass mortar
sure u hold it in the opener
then basically never consider that again
if BR was a weaker button it would be more of an energy management tool but they buffed it so it does big dammy now so u are casting it on cd outside the opener
i guess u could say we have 1% energy management
i barely count it
keen belfry
in m+ ui will think abnout it a lot weran
glass mortar
i feel like BR is one of our best aoe buttons now tho no?
wuld u even want to hold it just for energy cap in aoe
maybe
stuck patrol
then basically never consider that again
I'm 90% sure its said somewhere that we would only use it under a certain energy threshold at all times so we don't lose the extra energy it gives, but not with tierset we send it
keen belfry
no but u have other things u think about
cuz energy so dumb
and the way u think about managing energy in keys is basically afking
stuck patrol
I'm not saying that's groundbreaking energy management, I'm just saying there's a little bit
glass mortar
the only rule im aware of is to not use it on prepatch (where we dont have the tier) if you will overcap energy during the gcd which is
not a very limiting factor
i guess u could consider that energy management tho
maybe there will be a rule specific to ungeared no haste next season as well
stuck patrol
Yeah that's my point, you still have to look at your energy bar at least for that one thing
keen belfry
u will afk end of pulls in keys to not proc tea me thinks
stuck patrol
Again, not huge
glass mortar
i think the only time ive ever run into that consideration is the opener with prep tho
keen belfry
and/or let BF fall off at end of pulls for same reason
glass mortar
i am never struggling to not overcap energy on live
theres too little of it
the opposite usually
stuck patrol
u will afk end of pulls in keys to not proc tea me thinks
Why would you make me read this hell
keen belfry
mhm
keen belfry
yeah
glass mortar
fun stuff
keen belfry
its quite bad
stuck patrol
I'm already screwing that up in keys bc I'm so used to sending everything
keen belfry
ive done like 5 beta keys and evvery single one ive had to make cringe decisions multiple times at end of pull
glass mortar
its better if ur perma chaining ala zac
but for the midrange puggers who actually pull like normal humans its quite annoying
more annoying then crackshot uhuh for me in keys but w/e
stuck patrol
Ending my crackshot finger instincts already has been annoying enough lmao
stuck patrol
It's fine, it's been way worse imo
glass mortar
charges already, off the gcd
but having more keybinds is forbidden so
best we can do is auto tea
stuck patrol
Dude before crackshot reset BTE cd in stealth? That was fucking hell
I'll take this outlaw over that any day
glass mortar
always will 🥹
it shoulda just not been a stealth thing
attach it to kspree or something
keen belfry
i dont understand why cant just BTE trigger a crackshot or something
glass mortar
for 6s after finishing kspree your bte will reset its cd
kspree even refills ur cp bar
keen belfry
crackshot is completely gone
glass mortar
for 6s after consuming ur apex, your BtE wont go on cd
keen belfry
its only 5% there if u run awang 2x ace build and pray for a +2 ruthelessness BTE proc
glass mortar
something like that
keen belfry
for 6s after consuming ur apex, your BtE wont go on cd
bangert
glass mortar
many ways to do it but they didnt even want to give us the choice of having a "damage" window
i just wanted the choice, i understand it not being the main design for outlaw
stuck patrol
crackshot is completely gone
Apex makes it kind of still exist, but not in the spam way
glass mortar
you know what they should do
rancid silo
yea the talent is gone, but the gameplay is still kind of there
glass mortar
during ADR BtE should get double cdr from RB
keen belfry
ok not completely gone just 95% gone
glass mortar
more chances at actually getting ace procs and whatnot
keen belfry
during ADR BtE should get double cdr from RB
but zero in!
stuck patrol
during ADR BtE should get double cdr from RB
That would be really nice
cinder relic
maybe it's too much to ask of blizz but maybe the spellqueuewindow should consid...
Wdym
keen belfry
we have learned BTE cdr is not that good
fathom bramble
if you are at 35 energy and within the spellqueuewindow you cannot queue a spell that would be both ready and have enough energy for in the next 400ms
resulting in a potential laggy feeling at low energy regen
compared to how the spellqueuewindow behaves with ample energy or on CD based classes like ret
stuck patrol
Yeah I smell u
keen belfry
frail veldt
Yeah that's my point, you still have to look at your energy bar at least for tha...
technically theres only one rule that checks energy and its only a pre patch thing
so you could disable your energy bar in midnight
we do not have energy gameplay
keen belfry
u will in keys sir mewo
frail veldt
yeah maybe feelscrafty
but even then its not in the apl
in the same way youd hold vanish in keys before
but you technically didnt in the apl
I dont consider afking as gameplay
keen belfry
proccing a tea at end of a pull before a boss fight has a high chance to cook u
unless u have 3 ofc
frail veldt
I dont disagree with you
but theres a good chance that its <1% matters haha
it would only be relevant if you overcap energy before the boss pull
so like if theres boss rp or something
glass mortar
well for saving tea its relevant because ur basically wasting a tea charge
frail veldt
but in an optimized key you also arent really standing around ever anyway
glass mortar
if u let it go off at the end of a pack
when ur gunna regen it all anyway while running
frail veldt
well for saving tea its relevant because ur basically wasting a tea charge
not if you dont overcap energy
if you tea at the end of a pack
glass mortar
and wasting tea charges means u will have less for the next prolonged combat
frail veldt
yeah again thats just like before with vanish or adr usage
technically there are optimizations
glass mortar
maybe vanish
frail veldt
you wouldnt adr right before a 30s rp downtime
glass mortar
adr tho? u sent adr perma unless u were gunna literally have a forced RP downtime that made it run out with uhuh
frail veldt
or a transport that unstealths you
glass mortar
why would u not u can just stealth
frail veldt
cuz you cant always haha
glass mortar
sure but thats very different from "consider if i am going to waste a tea charge at the end of every single pack of a dungeon" tho
the adr thing came up like
maybe 3 or 4 times a season
frail veldt
well not every single pack is going to be afking in between
so its just as specific imo
frail veldt
I think its in the same category
glass mortar
imo
frail veldt
of non apl hyper optimizations
and again my core argument was that there isnt really energy gameplay
which I stand by still
frail veldt
thats all im saying
glass mortar
our cds just tend to all be energy regen tools
so if u mess up ur cd management ur future sucks
frail veldt
I wont let someone be misleading and say we have energy gameplay haha
cant stand for it
stuck patrol
But if energy too low we can't press button
frail veldt
same as before bud
stuck patrol
gameplay
frail veldt
if they wanted us to have energy gameplay, BR would have to do way less damage
glass mortar
holding br if you will overcap energy during the gcd is definitly under the catagory of energy management i think. its just so infrequent and so minor (And also going away) that its hard to consider it that
frail veldt
but even then wed prob slam on cd cuz our energy gain isnt great
glass mortar
if BR had 2charges it would be a cooler energy management tool
frail veldt
holding br if you will overcap energy during the gcd is definitly under the cata...
its only a pre patch rule though iirc
it doest even happen in midnight s1 gear
glass mortar
i mean its def gunna be a rule when ur low on haste next expac too
but thats like, the gearing up phase
frail veldt
youll never be capped on energy though haha
while gearing up
unless its the opener
keen belfry
itll bne rule until uj have tier
glass mortar
sure but its still a rule
stuck patrol
its only a pre patch rule though iirc
Im pretty sure s1 tier makes it hit and forget
glass mortar
i mean even on live i have this rule pop up like once in a blue moon?
frail veldt
yeah but then tier negates it too
glass mortar
95% of my BRs r being sent on cd
stuck patrol
But afterwards it may be optimized for energy
rancid silo
no way it be use for energy
frail veldt
but yeah its misleading to say we have energy gameplay
people will think of specs like assa or feral
glass mortar
semantically its true acthually
frail veldt
which we are not
glass mortar
but i largely agree with mewo
frail veldt
its misleading
keen belfry
br being used as a energfy tool is also shit cause that means it does shit damage lamo
glass mortar
it would be misleading to talk to someone and be like "yea outlaws focus is on managing energy" or anything like that
frail veldt
it may be technically true but its not helpful in describing the spec in an accurate way
fathom bramble
br being used as a energfy tool is also shit cause that means it does shit damag...
giving it 2 charges would let it do both 🙂
keen belfry
giving it 2 charges would let it do both 🙂
🙂
frail veldt
2 charge br pls
glass mortar
why did they make this thing a passive
it already has charges and its off the gcd
its just underdesigned
frail veldt
hahahaha
rancid silo
what passive?
frail veldt
tea
glass mortar
thistle tea
frail veldt
or at least optional
frail veldt
this middle ground is weird
rancid silo
I thought you were saying it became unusable like 100% passive
frail veldt
tea is too strong for the first few minutes of combat and too weak after that
3 charges is problematic
with how long the cd is
glass mortar
there is effectively no reason to ever have it bound
the fact that its designed as usable with 3 charges and a cd is all leftover from when it was an actual active ability
they have removed any reason for it to even be like that tbh
it could just be a larger vigor and it would not change anything
kinda silly
hope for future design ig
frail veldt
it could just be a larger vigor and it would not change anything
it is kinda funny we just have two vigors effectively
kind of a silly concept
maybe in the next xpac 🙂
cinder relic
why did they make this thing a passive
Because specs just ended up macroing it, and or putting an overemphasis on "having tea ready for x moment"
glass mortar
u fix that by removing the damage amp from it
why the hell did it ever have a damage amp in the first place
frail veldt
instead of addressing why it was being macrod they instead just macrod it for you haha
cinder relic
Well they did, now at least
glass mortar
yea its gone
which is good btw!
im just saying, i would enjoy energy management gameplay that isnt pooling like sin, but they didnt really give us that and tea seems to be designed to be that, but then they just made it a passive making all that design irrelevant yk
feels like a miss to me
u have vigor 1.0 passive to help energy, and then u talent vigor 2.0 to help energy more and thats it
glass mortar
u know me im just looking for more binds and more things to press 🥹
frail veldt
its not that big a problem it just could have been an opportunity for something better
glass mortar
id fuk hard with a choice node (like ER changed into) with an active/passive tea version
cinder relic
I don't want stupid shit to press for the sake of it
Gs became boring once it was off the gcd for me
frail veldt
I honestly think resource gameplay can be fun
esp when it involves active buttons/decisions
glass mortar
yea, again they coulda fixed that if they focused GS power into generating CP instead of just being a passive damage amp
but the ghostly strike we had for basically all of TWW was just boring
not even really a reason to bind it
cinder relic
But people hated it as just a button u pressed
glass mortar
good riddence
glass mortar
well GS on the gcd was turbo cringe
cinder relic
See lmao
glass mortar
ill never defend that one
but all my ideas to reinvent GS just turned it into MfD so
frail veldt
small off gcd cp gen is very fun
glass mortar
clearly what we really want is MfD
glass mortar
small off gcd cp gen is very fun
case in point
frail veldt
it allows you to dance around your finish conditions in a really compelling way
shoot I just spent my last PS and im 1cp short of finish conditioin but I have my small ogcd cp gen filler I can use
boom
10/10
glass mortar
if ur ever pressing an ogcd button on cd without any other conditions for it its probably a badly designed button u either need to change or remove
they just went the removal route which is lame to me but i definitly understand it
cinder relic
I liked it as a gcd button, others didn't, I didn't like it as an off gcd button others did
Idk, they design the game for different ppl some times idt it's that deep
glass mortar
well there is good and bad game design and i think an active button that is optimally macrod in such a way its passive (the GS ur describing) is just bad design
on gcd ghostly wasnt bad or good design, i just didnt enjoy it
old tea also fell into that catagory since like u said optimal play often just macro'd it to abuse the damage amp and didnt even worry about the energy it gave
cinder relic
Part of game design is like, making things easy to understand, or at least like. Focus on the right parts
Like with tea for example, the amount of people I coached personally that would just misunderstand tea when it came to assassination was a lot
Or like, same for sub in the past
Making it just a passive with no stats just makes it an easier spell to understand at a cursory glance
Because the power of tea, even with the stats, was a lot just the energy
glass mortar
thats true, i guess i feel like they never even tried a tea with no damage amp attached that was an active button tho?
river wing
GS could've been the Crackshot proccer/enabler rather than Stealth/Vanish, that would've been something
glass mortar
like is a tea that only gives energy but u need to press not fairly easy to understand
craggy barn
gs as a gcd or ogcd was whatever to me
glass mortar
its doing everything it tells you, you press this when you want more energy
craggy barn
cold blood existing for as long as it did was my biggest complaint
glass mortar
it was the damage amp part that confused it
cinder relic
thats true, i guess i feel like they never even tried a tea with no damage amp a...
They didn't, but atp I don't want tea as a button that just gives energy off the gcd lol
Just sounds annoying
cinder relic
GS could've been the Crackshot proccer/enabler rather than Stealth/Vanish, that ...
Ofc I'm bias but I just didnt want the spec to be about these like, "x second, upgraded rotation windows" anymore
glass mortar
as it is, this exact tea i would not want as an active button sure. if they ever made it a passive/active option id want the active to be more engaging
cinder relic
It's been this for, since the start of dragonflight
With dance, subterfuge, vanish
Even if it was all flavored around not stealth, I just am over the "cooldown button that enhances your rotation for a duration"
Personally
glass mortar
i think, based on the other specs ive played, they absolutely coulda kept a crackshot esque playstyle in the tree with a single choice node and given a no damage window passive ace resets (like the entire spec is now) as the alternative
ive even said in the past both gameplay options existing in the tree would be best
its lame to even lose the option for the people that liked it but ik what u mean
cinder relic
Wow in most instances doesn't have "choices" when it comes to play styles like that
It's either better. Or it isn't
I'd rather it not exist, but that's just how I want the spec to play
I want it to exist more as it does rn, and less how it did for 4 years now
glass mortar
i dont really know why you feel that way
frail veldt
there were brief times where outlaw had optional gameplay which was cool
I liked when HO/KiR were close
glass mortar
as monk i can have a 60s cd window, a 1.5m, a 2m, or basically no cd window and nearly flat damage
frail veldt
I thought that was pretty compelling design
cinder relic
Well I feel that way because I prefer how the spec played in bfa and sl lol
glass mortar
as devoker i can have a massive 2m cd or basically a 45s spike profile
or even a more flat profile
these all exist in the same specs within the talent trees
it only takes a talent or two
frail veldt
some specs do accomplish gameplay choices better than others
glass mortar
its really not that hard to pull off
frail veldt
outlaw has never done a great job of it esp since our hero talents dont change our gameplay much
I think it is hard to pull off though
glass mortar
like if ace node was just "you get mini 6s windows of bte having no cd" or what it is now, that alone would allow it
frail veldt
it takes good dev talent to make competitive but different feeling choices
glass mortar
the reason crackshot was unstoppable was it was the only build that gave 100% ar uptime
i dont want that back
or anything close to it
cinder relic
Outlaw felt too much, in the moment gameplay wise, like a knockoff sub rogue to me ever since s3df
frail veldt
yeah but some people still didnt like crackshots gameplay
cinder relic
Ofc not actual burst profile whatever
But like, the actual moment to moment gameplay felt way too similar to sub, and sub just did it better
frail veldt
p sure guy has said before adr uptime isnt even the reason he just doesnt like the 6s window of big finisher thing cuz thast more sub coded
but I think the bigger solution would have been to make that gameplay more optional
vivid vessel
ho was more sub coded and you preffered ho?
frail veldt
while it is hard I think its the better way to do it
vivid vessel
kir has legit nothing to do with sub idk how the windows even resemble sub a little bit
frail veldt
its more evergreen to approach the spec design as ideally growing in diversity over time not just shifting lanes to appease a new set of players every few seasons
not sure blizz has the resources to do that though
cinder relic
I liked it in s1-s2 DF where dance and subterfuge windows were used as buttons to "refill on fan procs" but yeah even then the novelty ran off by s3 for me with how it ended up playing
fathom bramble
dance and vanish being a fallback for being out of ho procs was pretty nice as a stealth focusedrotation without being similar to sub any any meaningful way
cinder relic
dance and vanish being a fallback for being out of ho procs was pretty nice as a...
Yeah
Agreed
frail veldt
I think most would agree though if their playstyle was able to coexist with another players preferred playstyle with very small margin between performance that that would be prob the best world
cinder relic
I like s1 and s2 a lot playstyle wise
gaunt phoenix
you also had like 4 different "builds" if that was too much
gaunt phoenix
ye
covert kestrel
ye
cinder relic
Hard to say which is my fav overall but there has been a lot of diff flavors of outlaw
graceful rover
How was outlaw population when it was like meta meta in s2/3 of bfa
desert tendon
my favorite outlaw is the one where zac and zero just argue perma and i cant have enough popcorns
enough to be 1 per group
cinder relic
This is also when outlaw was probably the absolute strongest key spec in the game
And it wasn't really close either
vivid vessel
waht does this mean
cinder relic
It's probably the strongest any individual spec has been
vivid vessel
oh multiple
cinder relic
Multiple lol
desert tendon
still less that lock / mage / mk when it's the best spec in the game
but still
big pop
glass mortar
yeah but some people still didnt like crackshots gameplay
My point was both builds could exist alongside each other not that removing that fixes guys issue with it
frail veldt
My point was both builds could exist alongside each other not that removing that...
yeah I was saying the same
their design idea of resetting and making something new constantly isnt good for long term quality
imo
just a new version of borrowed power haha
cinder relic
Borrowed power was a good thing, actually
frail veldt
borrowed power is good if you keep the good ones
thats called "progress" haha
via trial and error
glass mortar
When borrowed power isn't 90% of the design u do it's fine yea
fathom bramble
well apparently the alternative to borrowed power is evergreen systems that basically do nothing at all
glass mortar
As long as u decently often update spec based off the borrowed power that banged
vivid vessel
evergreen system sounded good until it was hero talent
frail veldt
well apparently the alternative to borrowed power is evergreen systems that basi...
they just obfuscate the borrowed power as "reworks"
vivid vessel
the most dogshit borrowed power that isnt borrower power
ever done
most uninspired
bugged
badly designed
borrowed power
that isnt borrowed
vivid vessel
well not rogues
frail veldt
type borrowed again zac
vivid vessel
unlucky
cinder relic
Well it's not borrowed power, it's evergreen
vivid vessel
borrowed
fathom bramble
because the plan is to keep it in the game forever they clearly didn't want to add it to the same level that borrowed pwoer is allowed to be
frail veldt
evergreen(for this patch)
vivid vessel
Well it's not borrowed power, it's evergreen
ye unlucky
fathom bramble
or else you have to remove 'evergreen' stuff every expac
and then it's borrowed power again
vivid vessel
but its not built any different
than sl leggos or sl covenants
or any other borrowed power
its unfortunate we got stuck with the worse borrowed power
fathom bramble
it's very clearly built differently than those effects
vivid vessel
they chose that dogshit to be evergreen
vivid vessel
its quite similar to the covenant tree tho for example
but the fact its so uninspired
random stirrup
It's probably the strongest any individual spec has been
vivid vessel
for sure its different
vivid vessel
when is that
random stirrup
sl3
craggy barn
giga wild
frail veldt
those specs
craggy barn
bdk was giga
frail veldt
just went dummy ham
random stirrup
more diversity than another incident though
random stirrup
ye
frail veldt
yeaaaah
frail veldt
I still think blizz is like misunderstanding the difference between a support and a zdps
craggy barn
yea early s2 was actually goated
frail veldt
theyve settled on zdps for the most part
craggy barn
and then BAM
frail veldt
but it took them a long time
burnt dragon
glass mortar
the transition alone is just so funny
ur triggering me
fathom bramble
but the fact its so uninspired
yeah it's like as interesting as just conduits
glass mortar
this was the best season devoker ever had in m+
did giga ST damage while having strong aoe
fathom bramble
which is on purpose probably
glass mortar
had burst damage profile
and then halfway thru the season they released aug and dev got deleted from the game
🥹
fathom bramble
Like I don’t think the state of hero talents and their evergreen-ness are a good thing
It’s just by design that they are this way
Blizz said they would re-evaluate hero talents and their evergreen stare at the end of midnight though
So we’ll see if we get borrowed power systems back
fathom bramble
Having a specific new thing with a new expac was actually cool
Bring back borrowed power
wintry solar
I just hope they do the grinds necessary for said power right
vapid sundial
wintry solar
Really the last season of any of the borrowed power expacs was pretty quick to obtain your stuff.
It's almost like, they should've just had it to begin with
cinder relic
Damn, pretty close though
glass mortar
i dont think any spec in the game has ever been as broken as destro that tier tbf, at least in the modern era of wow
blizzard literally said "we planned nerfs for this, but nerfing this spec would close the title race so we held off"
spec so powerful it warped the entire meta and dodged nerfs just for that reason
there wasnt m+ titles back in that era of broken outlaw in BfA was there so its tough to compare ig
fathom bramble
Shadowlands acquisition was decent if you didn’t detest torghast. Pretty minimal daily/weekly requirements to get dust and renown
Other than problems with swapping covs ofc
frail veldt
Shadowlands acquisition was decent if you didn’t detest torghast. Pretty minimal...
idk about minimal
depends on how much you play
choreghast was quite a lot of time required esp if you were playing 2 or 3 characters
tww def has probably the lowest weekly requirements ive ever experienced in wow
I can just log in and play pretty much
and not think about anything else
even in DF I remember the farm to get sockets was a bitch
maybe im just a lazy casual lol
I didnt play bfa though but I heard that shit was a lot of work with azerite stuff
wintry solar
Yeah
wintry solar
even in DF I remember the farm to get sockets was a bitch
In DF I just played normally and got my sockets
Didn't feel like a farm at all
wintry solar
SL
frail veldt
aaah
yeah that was awful
yeah it was def SL
sockets that xpac were a fucking PAIN in the ass
wintry solar
Yeah that was a bit crazy
SL launching with S4 acquisition would've made SL the best expansion ever
I'll die on that hill
shadow trellis
sockets that xpac were a fucking PAIN in the ass
What do you mean you dont enjoy maw walking and slaying maw goons for venari!? 
frail veldt
What do you mean you dont enjoy maw walking and slaying maw goons for venari!? <...
the maw was one of the worst zones ever created
I experienced it as a priest
and it fucking SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKED
cinder relic
The maw was so fucking good
frail veldt
idk what absolute sadist at blizz pitched that idea
cinder relic
So was korthia
wintry solar
Korthia was fine
cinder relic
The point of the maw was to be treacherous
wintry solar
The point of the maw was to be treacherous
Okay but that's not a good point
cinder relic
That's not what I said
frail veldt
thats the dumbest shit ever
shadow trellis
Oh i actually liked Khortia
cinder relic
It was though
frail veldt
its like doing a chore
wintry solar
I said it's suppose to be challenging
It's not challenging. It's just a shitty place to be
frail veldt
folding laundry isnt hard
but it sucks still
its not fun or compelling
its not what a video game is supposed to be
lime lake
i liked grappling up the tree in korthia with the treasure on it
frail veldt
it was just garbage
wintry solar
No redeeming factors
frail veldt
designed by someone with just genuinely a bad vision of games
"we want it to feel like hell" bro take a step back and maybe dont
shadow trellis
Remember racing to the other side of the zone each time bcs a rare spawned
frail veldt
yeah I love being tortured during my free time
wintry solar
I get the idea of wows version of hell or whatever which is cool in theory but you absolutely should not sacrifice good gameplay to enforce a point
cinder relic
Some of you have no appreciation for friction
frail veldt
its also not to be put int he fucking leveling zone
frail veldt
Some of you have no appreciation for friction
youre really missing the nuance here
challenge is meant to be satisfying when overcome
wintry solar
Some of you have no appreciation for friction
I like friction, the maw was just bad
cinder relic
Korthia without gear, and upgrades, was hard
frail veldt
arduous for arduous sake is not good gameplay
cinder relic
Like that's not an arguable thing
shadow trellis
I dont think there was any friction tho. It wasnt all bad either
cinder relic
Pushing the limits of where your characters progression when going into the maw was real
frail veldt
I liked korthia
cinder relic
You didn't full clear the maw day one
shadow trellis
i just think it was a bit grindy and monotome
frail veldt
thats not the part of the maw that I didnt like
that design is fine
the issue I have is with the mob design and the genuine misery of the zone
things ccing you
slowing you
its just uncompelling gameplay
wintry solar
Mob placement was ass too
frail veldt
so ass
cinder relic
The point is you are meant to find ways to circumvent it with your classes toolkit
Rogue was able to stealth by and sap things, drag things away
wintry solar
5 steps in any direction and you pull 9 mobs
cinder relic
Kidney one blind another
frail veldt
if that was their goal then maybe they should have thought more about what toolkits classes have
yeah ofc a druid can just go to the maw and ignore everything
but a priest is actually helpless
and their complete inability to realize that is pathetic
vivid vessel
i knew if there was one guy that could defend the maw it would be that guy
cinder relic
Classes have so many unique tools to deal with world content and the maw was like. Genuinely the only place the game has ever had where you need to flex every skill your spec had
frail veldt
there is no defending it
there are so many ways
to make a zone challenging
but fun
they made it easy and miserable
its the worst of both
wintry solar
Doing the maw as dk was so painfully slow
frail veldt
it was just shit
cinder relic
It wasn't easy
frail veldt
yes it was
cinder relic
Why dk u keep saying it was easy
wintry solar
Thank god we got the horse
cinder relic
The maw wasn't free
frail veldt
if the maw was hard for you then idk what to say
it had hard gates
progression walls
cinder relic
..?
cinder relic
What the fuck are u talking about
vivid vessel
guy you are so evil
frail veldt
having to progress to a certain level of renown to earn things to allow you to do certain areas
thast not difficulty
cinder relic
That's not what I'm talking about tho
frail veldt
its what im talkinga bout
cinder relic
Well idgaf about that, I'm talking about the actual gear progression that made the maw easier
shadow trellis
wasnt maw originally just max out the eye and the rep and leave for the week?
frail veldt
theres no reason mobs need to instant cast a 90% slow on you the second you aggro them
cinder relic
U weren't full clearing the maw with day 1 expac gear, it physically wasn't possible solo
frail veldt
Well idgaf about that, I'm talking about the actual gear progression that made t...
im not saying that was a problem
that has nothing to do with my point
craggy barn
are we talking about the maw or torghast
wintry solar
Maw
cinder relic
wasnt maw originally just max out the eye and the rep and leave for the week?
Correct! But with gear, and smart play, it was easier to push more and more of the clear early on
glass mortar
the maw was actually pretty cool
frail veldt
im talking about the mob/zone design of the maw in terms of how miserable certain mechanics/aspects of it were
glass mortar
i especially liked the part where i could mount in the maw from day 1
any worgens in the chat
craggy barn
its hell, and was made to be hell
glass mortar
cant imagine doing that zone when u couldnt mount ngl
copper radish
theres no reason mobs need to instant cast a 90% slow on you the second you aggr...
That slow was the absolute worst
frail veldt
i especially liked the part where i could mount in the maw from day 1
sick skill expression
you overcame the maw with your toolkit
thats good zone design
fucking insane shit ngl
wintry solar
any worgens in the chat
I've never been more envious of a race than day 1 of shadowlands lol
cobalt token
😭
copper radish
Wait worgen could use the racial mount? Busted smh
cobalt token
Mans is mad about the skill expression of a zone
copper radish
They shoulda nerfed that day 1 hotifx smh
glass mortar
i dont think they realized
not enough worgen in the game
they probably never saw it
💅
formal knot
i remember not minding the maw that much because stealth+sprint+grappling hook + goblin gliders 
or maybe i just made myself forget it
cinder relic
There's genuinely never been challenging world content in the gmae I enjoyed that the maw both offered a grind and an actual challenge
frail veldt
the maw was nothing
glass mortar
i had a route for minmaxing my daily maw
frail veldt
literally jsut do your weeklies and log out
glass mortar
i was much crazier back then i think id hate it now
frail veldt
as easy as any other zone
cinder relic
I enjoy the maw, islands, Ap grinds
shadow trellis
Jailer was a very deep and well thought out villain 🐉
glass mortar
i think the main problem with the maw was it just wasnt super interesting to explore like
cinder relic
I love legion legendaries
glass mortar
they put a lot of effort into chests and rares and places around it
past falcon
i liked covenants
glass mortar
but the whole zone was so ugly and samsey
cinder relic
but the whole zone was so ugly and samsey
This is valid
shadow trellis
I love legion legendaries
Ok this is actual evil xD
cinder relic
The maw was very... Bland visually
glass mortar
like if u gave me the maw but it was a lush dangerous jungle or something
id fuk with that haaard
craggy barn
legion legendary acquisition was awful, the legendaries themselves werent too bad (aside from some)
glass mortar
ye its just a personal pref probably
wintry solar
Real
cobalt token
The maw was very... Bland visually
Tbh it's supposed to be a barren wasteland hell
cinder relic
Tbh it's supposed to be a barren wasteland hell
Yeah but
I think they could have made it more visually diverse, especially when shadowlands was already so rich in the unique zones
Even if the goal is to be drab and grey, it does get a bit boring to look at as a zone where you do dailies in
glass mortar
^ even just having seperate areas of the maw be very different but still dark hellish style, like the circles of hell
it really was just to me that everywhere in the zone looked so similar
cobalt token
I think they could have made it more visually diverse, especially when shadowlan...
I think the fact they kept it bland is great BECAUSE everythin else was so diverse
shadow trellis
Ardenwild was so pretty
shadow trellis
i loved ittt
frail veldt
the other SL zones were awesome
shadow trellis
the trees and the stars
past falcon
i mean thematically u were supposed to hate the maw and.... i hated going to the maw lol
shadow trellis
omagaa 
frail veldt
they did a good job with some fun feeling story quests in that xpac imo
cinder relic
Ik a lot of people hated how segmented shadowlands was, but It did allow zones to be soooo unique
cinder relic
I like bastion
frail veldt
it was too compartmentalized
wintry solar
Bastion was my favorite. That aesthetic was so peak
past falcon
kyrians ❤️ my steward ❤️
craggy barn
i did not like how it was just loading zones
frail veldt
felt like you were just in a bunch of disneyland rides
fathom bramble
depends on how much you play
It is all way less than m+ chores though
frail veldt
instead of like being in an actual world
craggy barn
and that u had to FP to each zone
craggy barn
wouldve liked to just cross a border and see the blatant differences in front of me
fathom bramble
Admittedly i did only play 2 chars though
But it was like half an hour a week at moat
gaunt phoenix
I didnt like oribos much
craggy barn
if they were physically connected i woudlnt have minded it
wintry solar
Oribos is Undercity 2
shadow trellis
oribos got that leveling gear texture
cobalt token
I didnt like oribos much
Nothing will ever be better than undercity
past falcon
oribos was mid
frail veldt
yeeeup
frail veldt
it was probably one of the worst capitals weve ever had
craggy barn
lime lake
that was so dumb
wintry solar
That's fine, I just went to the capital city
frail veldt
valdrakken was sick though ngl
lime lake
ok but it cant be the worst capital
frail veldt
flying up to valdrakken for the first time
lime lake
because oribos lap timer existed
frail veldt
was aaawesome
gaunt phoenix
The best hub remains zandalar
frail veldt
the contrast of SL to DF was insane in terms of a connected world that felt HUGE
lime lake
yeah for sure
cobalt token
The best hub remains zandalar<:suskaygeagreegebusiness:1235378736480911451>
Undercity clears
frail veldt
I enjoyed the open world experience of DF a lot the first season
shadow trellis
I remember chatting with my guildies after raids or dungeon nights and just running circles in oribos
wintry solar
i swapped engi just for that
Why? The portal to your city was down the hall, to the left.
frail veldt
collecting all the dragonriding glyphs
lime lake
zaralek working the way it does was really cool too
shadow trellis
that was hypnotizing for some reason
craggy barn
Why? The portal to your city was down the hall, to the left.
ANOTHER LOADING SCREEN?? KILL ME
lime lake
and we got access to it through big ass holes fyrakk made
cinder relic
The best hub remains zandalar<:suskaygeagreegebusiness:1235378736480911451>
Zandalar was v good. I hated DF ofc but I liked valdraken too
frail veldt
and we got access to it through big ass holes fyrakk made
yeah diving that for the first time was sick
the novelty of dragonriding has worn a little bit but man did it feel great in DF
cinder relic
I also like tww city tbh
fathom bramble
Ik a lot of people hated how segmented shadowlands was, but It did allow zones t...
All zones were connected by the story instead of the theme
I liked them all and each one felt actually unique
cinder relic
All zones were connected by the story instead of the theme
Yeah
wintry solar
I remember chatting with my guildies after raids or dungeon nights and just runn...
Jumping on the little things was peak time passer
frail veldt
I liked them all and each one felt actually unique
Yeah for sure
I personally really liked all of the themes
I had one of each covenant pretty early on
I think I had the most alts I ever did in SL
shadow trellis
Dude i cant wait to see the new Silvermoon
cinder relic
I mean its the thing I talk about alot, nothing is zero sum, making the zones disconnected comes with pros and cons
wintry solar
ANOTHER LOADING SCREEN?? KILL ME
I guess you just don't have rare recipes like me 💅
lime lake
i did really like revendreth
wintry solar
All zones were connected by the story instead of the theme
I liked how they did that tbh
lime lake
the verticality was really nice
obviously now with dragonriding thats more common
but back then it was really cool
copper radish
12 more days and we are midnight leveling
frail veldt
I still like the progression of no mount to flying mount within a zone
forces you to kinda take the scenic routes at the start
feels good usually
fathom bramble
Ground navigation is much more interesting for sure
copper radish
I still like the progression of no mount to flying mount within a zone
With sky riding at level 10 would they do that again tho
fathom bramble
Flying is just point a point b over and over
cobalt token
With sky riding at level 10 would they do that again tho
Probably not unless it's another maw case
cobalt token
Any class w mobility
cinder relic
Content where stealth actually is a huge perk felt so legendary
lime lake
druid was pretty op
cobalt token
Tho the holes that I got stuck in on a daily basis pissed me off
lime lake
stealth and travel form
glass mortar
Mostly as a rogue probably
try as a worgen rogue
😏
but yea i liked the maw ngl
but my experience was very different from my guildies
i just didnt like the aesthetic
like i said id fuk hard with maw 2.0 but a different vibe
copper radish
try as a worgen rogue
I’ll remember this for shadowlands remix or classic
glass mortar
eh remix will be on last patch so ull be able to mount as everyone
it wasnt nearly as bad once they added mounting
cinder relic
I mean I enjoy a lot of evil, "unfun" zones in a lot of games. I have appreciation for all the terrible zones in silksong, or all the poison swamps in dark souls games
cobalt token
Stealth and grapple carried the maw
They need to make stealth useful again it's just a cd in pve in pvp humans just counter and even if there's none it's meh don't even bring up open world
gaunt phoenix
I do think mounting could have been sooner
wintry solar
They need to make stealth useful again it's just a cd in pve in pvp humans just ...
Just play sub. You're virtually the same in that department
craggy barn
They need to make stealth useful again it's just a cd in pve in pvp humans just ...
they just spent time making stealth not matter and now someone wants it back
cobalt token
<:OMEGALUL:901038707879067709> they just spent time making stealth not matter an...
Nah I want it to be cool
cinder relic
Different people like different things 
frail veldt
its also okay to say something is bad
wintry solar
Different people like different things <:HOLY:1342596551591198754>
Inconceivable
cinder relic
Can I get a ForeverGuy is a shill going please
cobalt token
Not part of a fuck ass rotation
frail veldt
sometimes they dont do a good job
craggy barn
GUY IS A FUCKING SHILL
wintry solar
People should only like what I like
gaunt phoenix
I like u 
cinder relic
I like u <:PeepoBlush:1327372838906101790>
craggy barn
wtf is that
cobalt token
Just play sub. You're virtually the same in that department
I refuse to touch sub
I'd rather roll hunter
cinder relic
wtf is that
Game of the year
gaunt phoenix
Mewgenics
frail veldt
thats the cat game
wintry solar
Dude
frail veldt
by the supermeatboy maker
frail veldt
and binding of isaac right
craggy barn
ye
copper radish
How many of yall committed to maining outlaw season one be honest 😂
craggy barn
i wish i was playing dps this expac
copper radish
Devourer lookin good 👀
cinder relic
I mean I play what's best for prog. But I will be playing otl on farm, as long as it's not exceptionally terrible like this tier
cobalt token
I mean I play what's best for prog. But I will be playing otl on farm, as long a...
We pray for dmg buff in the next 12 days
wintry solar
How many of yall committed to maining outlaw season one be honest 😂
I'm giving Outlaw, Blood, and Unholy an equal amount of attention.
copper radish
We pray for dmg buff in the next 12 days
Keep praying
cinder relic
We pray for dmg buff in the next 12 days
I think ppl are gonna be surprised by what good for prog lol
I feel like nobody knows anything this tier
More so than usual
copper radish
I feel like blizz doesn’t even know 
cobalt token
More so than usual
Idk
wintry solar
I feel like blizz doesn’t even know <:kekdog:907207037757296710>
They know we're getting borrowed power for TLT
cobalt token
All ik is that thrall farting would do more damage
craggy barn
whats good for prog will be 4 tanks
cobalt token
And that's why I'm mad
vivid vessel
I think ppl are gonna be surprised by what good for prog lol
gonna be so surprising when we play sub
copper radish
They know we're getting borrowed power for TLT
Where’s that post from a few years ago around SL when Blizz said no more borrowed power 😂
glass mortar
dw
wintry solar
Where’s that post from a few years ago around SL when Blizz said no more borrowe...
They say a lot of things
Their word doesn't hold a lot of weight these days
remote pecan
they said no more tier sets as well at 1 point and here we are
glass mortar
we did have no tier sets for awhile tho and everyone wanted them back
copper radish
Almost made it all SL without them lol
fathom bramble
Tiersets are just crappy borrowed power
glass mortar
seasonal power
cinder relic
All ik is that thrall farting would do more damage
👻
craggy barn
dw thrall wont be farting any time soon
hes just gonna sit in major city hub and do nothing
cant have horde leaders do anything
cobalt token
Can't have horde do anything*
Unless it's something that ruins our lore
Then it's cool
copper radish
cant have horde leaders do anything
They just blow up cities 😭
craggy barn
deserved
copper radish
It was the battle for Azeroth
glass mortar
the only faction i remember breaking a treaty and restarting the war was the alliance in legion
cobalt token
They just blow up cities 😭
Those damn knife ears deserved it
glass mortar
and even that wasnt entirely their fault
craggy barn
cant believe the lore was the alliance thought the horde betrayed them during broken shore
bc the alliance were giga infiltrated by demons
glass mortar
yup
craggy barn
bc the alliance are ez to fool
glass mortar
altho really they didnt even act on that
the real breaking of the peace was when with no warning or even notifying the king, greymane decided to assassinate the hordes leader in stormheim
craggy barn
it was used as justification for going after sylv bc dogboy hates her (though fwiw sylv was doing some sly shit)
fathom bramble
They just went cia mode and hid their fuckup from the people in charge
glass mortar
while they were still technically "at peace"
i guess because of the broken shore it was closer to "not actively at war" rather then under a peace agreement
craggy barn
dogboy is a true hater
glass mortar
but still
craggy barn
and i wish they made him more evil
fathom bramble
He was under orders from anduin to not attack the horde at the time
glass mortar
yup it was a scouting mission
fathom bramble
To try and preserve the peace
glass mortar
except it was clear the whole time his goal was to kill her and the fleet
so really, bfa is greymanes fault
fathom bramble
Yeahhh
glass mortar
💅
fathom bramble
Opened fire in 1 frame
glass mortar
didnt even make demands
literally just immediatly surprise attacked
it surprises me how few people picked up on that
ig most people dont pay close attention to the lore of this game
so many of my guildies were like "Why are they just restarting the faction war in bfa for no reason its so boring"