outlaw

[glass mortar]

It is an ability

[rancid silo]

ok i see

[fickle relic]

where can i look for a pvp guide for outlaw?

[vivid vessel]

and then it got 15% aura nerf

you do realize how much that is right

[cinder relic]

Yep it's a big number!

[frail veldt]

Don't trust anyone who says anything for certain about the future

In regards to tuning

[arctic merlin]

i saw massive changes, i opened in hopes of seeing outlaw changes, i see it's not even touched?

[leaden sonnet]

Everyone else got nerfed

That's practically a buff

[frank finch]

uh nerf

uh buff

uh nerf

we did get nerfed actually

unseen blade got nerfed

[copper radish]

Fatebound all the way

[frank finch]

the 3 outliers got hit

devourer

dev

demo?

[fathom bramble]

that seems like such a random nerf

5% reduction on something that doesn't do that much damage is very strange

[frank finch]

does it do dmg for sub?

[fathom bramble]

I don't think any of their amps apply to it in a meaningful way

should be about the same

it's just odd to see a nerf that amounts to fractions of a % overall damage

[arctic merlin]

yeah i was thinking maybe we don't compare poorly now

[upper surge]

devoker atm

[leaden sonnet]

My guess is to make the ap coefficient number look nicer (296>280)

Why they need to do that I have no idea

[fathom bramble]

yeah that might explain it

I'm sure it amounts to a ~0% nerf on both specs

[strange kelp]

Surv also got hit pretty hard

And from my understanding MM

[cinder relic]

I think it's like a 1% sub Nerf for st

And maybe a 3% for aoe

[fathom bramble]

is 5% on unseen blade really 1% st?

[cinder relic]

But sub was almost good, except every actual op spec got nerfed

[cinder relic]

Well it's a 3% Nerf and it does more damage in aoe than st

Might be 2% or something, but smaller than 3% either way lol

[glass mortar]

Did I read right that devoker got buffed

[upper surge]

giga buffed

lmao

[glass mortar]

Oh god

[upper surge]

7% for FS, way more for SC

[glass mortar]

These r beta only changes surely

If not it's going to solo wow on live

[upper surge]

Technically it's a bugfix because they've been buffing disintegrate as compensation for other nerfs for weeks and weeks and it turns out they've been buffing it wrong

[glass mortar]

Yea I saw that it was failing to inherit like 70% damage amp auras from sael the other day

Funny stuff

[upper surge]

in laymans terms, dis doesn't do damage - it applies a damage over time that does damage. But they were buffing the damage of disintegrate, which doesnt do anything, instead of the periodic damage

[glass mortar]

That's a very big number to be missing

[upper surge]

it skyrocketed SC to the moon

[glass mortar]

ok now im finally back online on my pc i can actually look at the full notes reading wow websites on mobile is a pita

[upper surge]

wb

[glass mortar]

windows 11 update bricked my internet and i just spent an hour recovering it

[upper hawk]

can anyone break down these outlaw notes. buff or nerf?

[glass mortar]

buff by proxy assuming more specs got nerfed then got buffed

otherwise its a HUGE nerf

me when i just wanna see my spec in the notes

coulda thrown us 5% more damage on some random thing

5% more instant poison damage

[dusky temple]

why do rouge get more nerf?

[lime lake]

real

[dusky temple]

Trickster: Unseen Blade damage reduced by 5%. ? why?

[safe pasture]

were we like blasting on beta or something i feel increadibly mid on pre patch

[dusky temple]

r we?

[cinder relic]

Because rogue is solid on beta, and a lot of the very broken specs got big nerfs

[glass mortar]

that is a very strange nerf

i assume its just aimed at sub or something

trickster was already worse on beta and this just makes it more worse?

and actual dps wise for us it barely moves the needle

[cinder relic]

They do nerfs for specific specs for hero talents

[glass mortar]

yea which makes it weirder

they coulda just nerfed subs blade

future planning for trickster buffs or something because nerfing the worse hero talent tree (in every scenario) by any amount, even a tiny amount, is abit strange?

[nova sinew]

Trickster was not worse?

[glass mortar]

on beta?

[nova sinew]

It was like 20% ahead

Yes

[glass mortar]

trickster has been worse for outlaw the entire beta cycle as far as im aware

and was before this nerf

and certainly will be after

[nova sinew]

Your last few messages were about sub I assumed that’s what you meant

[glass mortar]

they were not about sub

i was questioning why the flat nerf to blades if its only aimed at sub

and then all my comments were about trickster for outlaw

[nova sinew]

It’s a weird nerf for both specs

[midnight granite]

messer in the wrong channel

someone tell him

[midnight granite]

[harsh forge]

major class tuning

ctrl+f outlaw 0/0

[cinder relic]

What kind of tuning were u expecting for outlaw

[arctic merlin]

why don't they nerf hero talents for a spec instead of nerfing it for both specs

i just noticed this too, is it no longer a shit mastery?

[cinder relic]

They have previously

[wintry solar]

Number go up kind of tuning

[glass mortar]

still ur worst stat by a decent bit in ST

a real stat in aoe

so basically the same as last expac

u'll be avoiding it as much as possible

dont ask by what mysterious magic they manage to buff it by 150% (thats a very big number) and it still remains worse then vers

it is what it is

at least crit is better now

maybe they only buffed its base and not its scaling or something

[arctic merlin]

crit is better because they removed 20% of it from bte, no?

[glass mortar]

and buffed BtEs damage and gave a few other crit scalers but sure

[arctic merlin]

we got some crit in talents, but it's good mainly because our crit buff is gone

[glass mortar]

that did contribute

zero in also contributes

[arctic merlin]

how is it so bad in st and good in aoe?

[glass mortar]

because BF and BR can proc it on multiple targets at once

so it gains a bit of value in aoe

not like crazy or anything tho

its still a bad stat in general

Bf initial cast that being (not BF cleave damage)

[proven ocean]

Wait

Assassination buffs

Is it time

[arctic merlin]

does mastery increase the % chance of it proccing or the dmg or both

[glass mortar]

just the damage

[proven ocean]

For my ultimate come back

[arctic merlin]

so does mastery just not increase it by a lot then?

[glass mortar]

just not tuned high enough to be good

same as always

arbritrarily

🤷

theres a theoretical number they could buff it to where mastery would become a good stat

[arctic merlin]

right, so its base value is good (because we can see it's one of the top dmg abilities), but trying to increase it is not good

[glass mortar]

but they havent done that in like 10 years of it existing so

they dont want it to be a good stat for us

[arctic merlin]

maybe that's not bad, it's useful enough, no?

[glass mortar]

idk if id call it useful

its more of a "meh" thing

[arctic merlin]

it's in my top 3 abilities

[glass mortar]

perhaps its not as awful now as it was last expac and df so getting forced mastery on gear wont feel as bad

[arctic merlin]

testing it on dummies

[glass mortar]

sure they reduced all ur active damage sources and buffed passive ones

i dont know what u mean by a good thing tho

if it was doing 10% less of ur dps the other sources would just have been made higher to compensate

it doesnt really matter

[arctic merlin]

i mean that we don't invest mastery since we have enough of it and can just go to other stats

[glass mortar]

personally i prefer more of my damage coming from active sources

i dont know what u mean by enough of it but sure

masteries are generally flat damage scalers so "enough of it" isnt really a thing for anyone, its just like a better vers for most specs in the game

worse for us

its not like you get any benifit from having ur base mastery tuned to X amount

[arctic merlin]

let's say havoc dh - they need every stat, mastery and crit above everything else, but also vers for survivability and haste (ofc), they have their own stat priority, but they make use of every stat, like if they're low on vers they will die more often

[glass mortar]

well what do you mean "need"

if all ur stats are good thats good

it means all ur stats are giving you lots of damage

[arctic merlin]

we don't have to worry about a stat which is huge

[glass mortar]

if stats are worse then vers it means they suck

[arctic merlin]

well yes, but there are so many items you can get, right?

[proven ocean]

W yapping

[glass mortar]

if you assume scaling never becomes an issue (hint: it does, altho less often then in the past) then sure its a benifit for your other stats to be shit because vers gives u dr

but you likely wont have much if any vers until s2 or s3 because almost all of ur s1 stat budget will be haste and then s2 will be crit and haste anyway so

its not like its really giving you any benifit other then you scale worse then most classes

but less worse now so

theres that

[proven ocean]

All classes get stat mitigation

They cant stack one stat and call it a day

With some exceptions of poorly designed specs

Some classes scale so hard with haste that they need all the haste in the world

And benefit 0 from other things

[glass mortar]

i dont rlly know any classes like that, usually if haste is a mongo stat for u ur other stats are good as well tbh, just not as good as haste

but thats all splitting hairs anyway

really all that matters is blizzard adjusts for how specs scale differently between seasons

and when they dont, if u have bad secondaries then u fall off and it sucks

[arctic merlin]

my point was that main gauche does well even if we don't stack a lot of mastery, so it means that we can invest in the other 3 secondary stats and have more of them

[glass mortar]

other 2 but sure

but i dont really see how its a benifit

that if u get forced to have mastery on a slot (which happens quite often) its just very bad

and anytime the game gives u mastery buffs or mastery trinkets they are also bad

[arctic merlin]

it's a benefit in the sense that it does enough even if you don't stack mastery

[glass mortar]

which blizzard loves to do

what does enough mean

[arctic merlin]

yes i agree

[glass mortar]

that term doesnt make sense

u dont take mastery because u have "enough", you dont take it because its a waste to take because its so weak

[arctic merlin]

.

[glass mortar]

everyones base mastery is "enough"

[arctic merlin]

that

[glass mortar]

but for many of them mastery also scales well so they can also stack it

thats completely arbritrary tho

whether mg was 50% of ur dps or 10% all that matters is the secondary scaling

it could be shit or good either way

[fickle relic]

What's going on?

[arctic merlin]

sorry for ping, i should've screenshot

used your dmg breakdown for something

[glass mortar]

u can make it not ping the reply to

[arctic merlin]

yes sorry, im just falling asleep

[fickle relic]

It's ok, are you talking about how potent mastery is?

[glass mortar]

if u click this thingy

[arctic merlin]

i didn't know that, i'll use it next time, thanks

[arctic merlin]

yes

[glass mortar]

its fine this is all semantics anyway

"enough" mastery doesnt really make sense because theres no like, thresholds for mastery or anything

they could buff mastery 5000% tomorrow and it would be 70% of ur dps and it its secondary scaling wasnt changed it would still be ur worst stat

how much of ur damage breakdown it is is just whatever blizzard tunes it to be arbirtrarily

they reduced how much all ur active damage sources contribute so now mastery and autos are higher

thats pretty much it

they could also nerf it by 100% but increase how much the rating scales its damage by 100% and it would be ur best stat tomorrow

thats just how it works

[arctic merlin]

ah alright i see what you mean

[fickle relic]

And i don't :/

[glass mortar]

but its not a big deal ur 99% correct

like i said we are just talking semantics now

[fickle relic]

So he's saying that it's just bad for stacking?

[glass mortar]

you cant determine how good mastery rating is by how much of your breakdown it is

[fickle relic]

Less value than other secondaries?

[glass mortar]

is basically what im saying

its more damage now, its still a bad secondary

is the tldr

[fickle relic]

So how do you determine how good mastery is then?

[arctic merlin]

so imagine blizzard buffs it and tomorrow you have 5000% mastery, main gauche is going to do a lot of damage then. however, if you keep getting mastery, the damage of main gauche is not going to increase by much because it's how blizzard made the scaling

[glass mortar]

why thats the case is they buffed masteries base damage but didnt increase the scaling enough to make rating worth taking

and also nerfed all ur active damage sources at the same time

so MG damage in the profile go up

but secondary stat value do not go up

[arctic merlin]

now imagine you have 5% mastery, but they buff the damage scaling by 100x, now it's worth it to stack mastery because each point of mastery corresponds to a big point of damage of main gauche

[glass mortar]

sims

if u mean how good the rating is

[fickle relic]

Oh so ur saying that it's base damage is high but the damage from additional mastery is nothing in comparison?

[glass mortar]

just seeing how much damage it adds per rating and comparing to everything else

yea basically

they can arbirtrarily make the base damage whatever they want it to be

[fickle relic]

Ye i see now

[glass mortar]

it could be 50% of ur dps profile and still be ur worst stat

because the stats value is how much it scales the base damage

and currently it is not enough

even if mastery contributes a fair amount of damage baseline

[arctic merlin]

main gauche doing huge dmg =/= mastery stack is good

[glass mortar]

and it seems to be on purpose because like i said, its not a hard thing to make a decent stat

[fickle relic]

It happend because of the stat squish?

[glass mortar]

i believe they choose to leave it tuned so low

they dont want us taking mastery

[fickle relic]

That's bs i hate it honestly

[glass mortar]

it is what it is

[fickle relic]

Our mastery is probably the worst in the game

[glass mortar]

its kinda lame to have ur whole damage breakdown turn into passive damage like, if mastery was good and we stacked it ud legit see half ur damage being mastery which idk if anyone wants

[arctic merlin]

not wanting a spec to take mastery is no excuse to have shit mastery with low tuning

[fickle relic]

Now i lost all will to stack mastery

[glass mortar]

i wish theyd just change it

it also runs into a few clunky things with scaling like, for most classes you are going to scale everything off ur mastery

so if you get a tier set that says "mind blast does 20% more dps"

well guess what, your mastery also just amplifies the damage of ur spells

so ur mastery is scaling with that tier set

MG basically never does

because its its own damage source

[gaunt phoenix]

it's interesting cause our mastery is a damage effect, so crit and vers and haste still also increase main gauche damage without having to take mastery itself

[glass mortar]

sure but thats just it acting like every other mastery in the game right

mostly it acts similar to them

except in situations like i outlined

everyone elses mastery is also scaling with haste crit and vers since its just amping their abilities base damage usually

[gaunt phoenix]

you type a lot of words

[glass mortar]

im sleep deprived and musing

new mastery when

[arctic merlin]

yeah, but let's say havoc dh's mastery is all your chaos dmg is increased and if you crit that increase it's more value than any dmg effect mastery

and it's like that for a lot of classes, i agree

[fickle relic]

But they stack mastery instead of crit usually

Assa rogue stacks mastery too

[glass mortar]

i'll take solo yell at me as a sign its time for bed o7 gn boys, mastery is probably less bad then it was less expac so if u really wanna stack it 4 fun dont let me spoil ur mood

[fickle relic]

U already did 🙁

[arctic merlin]

they can get any stat and their dmg will change slightly, but as @glass mortar said if you're forced into mastery items (which is inevitable as you're gearing) your dmg will drop a lot as an outlaw

[fickle relic]

It's inevitable even with bis items

Tier set often has crit on half of the pieces

I mean mastery

[gaunt phoenix]

the diff between like crit vers and crit mastery shouldnt be a whole lot

[arctic merlin]

yeah, we're most likely crafting the item with most mastery in it

im all for unique mastery types, like ww has a very cool idea of mastery about not repeating your abilities

but ig it comes at a price that we're paying

[fickle relic]

They could make it be our double ss chance

Well they could make it into anything and it'd be better than the one we have now

[arctic merlin]

honestly before i saw the apex talent for outlaw i was imagining a mastery with the same effect

% chance to load a bullet or to keep combat points

[cinder relic]

So you want haste and mastery breakpoints?

[arctic merlin]

maybe some bonus scaling on restless blades

or flat out phys dmg increase

[fickle relic]

Yeah i thought about it, but what i want is an interesting mastery that's worth having, at least not the least desireable one. Even breakpoint would be more interesting

[gaunt phoenix]

i'd like something similar to

"your gun spells deal x% additional damage as fire" or smth

[cinder relic]

That's valid

[fickle relic]

Maybe ignoring armor like in shadowlands

[cinder relic]

I think the whole interesting mastery thing is sort of a likr

[fickle relic]

Exploit weaknesses from sub

[cinder relic]

There's like 1 spec in the game that has an interesting mastery

Yk

[gaunt phoenix]

ye

[quaint mauve]

im kinda blind but i cant find

when to use prep

[cinder relic]

And monk mastery isn't interesting to likr

U don't stack mastery

It just tells u how to play the spec

[arctic merlin]

Oh that's a good one, even plays to the dirty fighting fantasy of outlaw

Mg does too, it's just shit

[gaunt phoenix]

just to reset AR and BtE

[fickle relic]

The problem would be that since then outlaw has got some cosmic damage so it would be worse than then

[gaunt phoenix]

and blade rush in aoe

[quaint mauve]

fury mastery is pretty fun

[arctic merlin]

Isn't cosmic dmg purely from fb?

[quaint mauve]

so when all 3 on cd?

[gaunt phoenix]

ye

[quaint mauve]

oki

ty

[wintry solar]

Solo

I like prep now

[gaunt phoenix]

nice

[wintry solar]

Is that bad?

[fickle relic]

Yep, so good on trickster, very bad on fb

[gaunt phoenix]

it could have been more

[wintry solar]

It for sure could've

[fickle relic]

Suddenly, cats

[fickle relic]

I have the same keyboard

[gaunt phoenix]

nice

[arctic merlin]

Outlaw mastery to summon a cat

[fickle relic]

I had an idea about masteries changing for heroic specs but that would be too hard

So ignoring armor on trickster and more chance for next coin to be the same on fb

Amazing idea, no?

[arctic merlin]

Until you try to come out with 3 masteries for every spec

[proven ocean]

That cat looks delicious

[fickle relic]

Well we could be the only ones to have such a luxury

[gaunt phoenix]

[quaint mauve]

i think i have that same keyboard too actually

[haughty merlin]

Last time I played combat, was DF and it required a lot of vanish to get Between the Eyes. Now it seems far more simple. Slam roll the bones on CD, use BTE when it's up, slam CDs as they come up

Am I way off base here?

[gaunt phoenix]

yeah, you dont slam RTB

[fickle relic]

It started to not register keys that i press so i can't really say it's a good keyboard

[gaunt phoenix]

You need to get stage 2 or higher of RTB and then keep it

[arctic merlin]

mastery so shit the entire system had to be reinvented for us 🥀

[arctic merlin]

roll the bones on cd only if you got the first buff

[fickle relic]

Maybe he meant for supercharger

[arctic merlin]

anything more you keep it

[fickle relic]

They changed it to be triggered on adrenaline rush

The audacity to send such a cute vid

[gaunt phoenix]

i love white cats and their pink lips

[arctic merlin]

are the wowhead talents up to date? i saw somewhere here that KiR is the current playstyle, but wowhead says no

[haughty merlin]

Ohhh. where can I read about this?

[arctic merlin]

#outlaw-faq message

[gaunt phoenix]

talents shifted around a bit a few days ago

[arctic merlin]

yeah i saw and changed them, but wowhead?

[gaunt phoenix]

wowhead is just the last iteration of builds

i dont write it

i write here

[arctic merlin]

i put my trust in you and follow your guide until the end

[proven ocean]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-dough-kneading-gif-2206063027120674946

[cinder relic]

Oh do I need to update all talents again?

[gaunt phoenix]

i'm naught but one person

[cinder relic]

Or do u just mean the class half

Cuz I fixed the class side already

Wasn't sure if diff spec talents happened

[arctic merlin]

i copied talents from the pinned message

[haughty merlin]

So from what I am understanding, don't roll if you have stage 2+, reroll when expires?

[fickle relic]

That's what i do

[cinder relic]

Oh I see

Yeah I can change it when I get home tomorrow

[gaunt phoenix]

there was a small update where we can remove these

[arctic merlin]

yes

[cinder relic]

Yeah I'll fix it tomorrow then

[gaunt phoenix]

but it's not infinite dps

[fickle relic]

Do you guys have a pvp guide somewhere?

[gaunt phoenix]

nop

[arctic merlin]

if you play with keep it rolling you want to use it during stage 2 or above on roll the bones

not at stage 1

[haughty merlin]

Also, I am ilevel 121 and doing insane dmg on 5 targets, like 60-70k sustained

Yep got that thank you!

[proven ocean]

Our pvp pvp guys dont rly TC now i think

Once season starts

We barely have any anymore or

[arctic merlin]

how are you doing this, im 135 or something and i do about 45k

unless im confused

[fickle relic]

I saw a guide on icy veins and i'm not a rogue professional, but it seemed not very good if i may say

It literally rocks vanish capstone

I have no idea why

[haughty merlin]

Let me try again 1 sec

[arctic merlin]

no ig im shit im doing 120k on my dh

[fickle relic]

Btw, will there be a big patch on the release or is that it?

[cinder relic]

Cuz vanish in PvP is really op

Idk if it's correct but like, vanish is so good for running away and doing setups

[fickle relic]

Well they added cd for cheap shot and usually you are dotted, plus vanish is not affected by restless blades anymore and the only benefit would be to wait 4 minutes to have 2 charges, that's only my opinion, but i really don't see how it's useful

[arctic merlin]

i've got 38k sustained dmg on 5 dummies and 34k sustained on a single dummy, what am i doing wrnog here?

i'm p sure i'm pressing bf

[fickle relic]

Considering you are also wasting 2 more talent points for 6 sec stealth aura

[arctic merlin]

nvm im dumb

[haughty merlin]

hmmm idk what I was looking at, but I am 35-40k

Dumb question for aoe. I am at 5 combo points, do I hit SS or pistol shot proc to get to 6+

[arctic merlin]

might be the biggest sign i need to go to bed

[gaunt phoenix]

you ss unless you are at 6 stacks of opportunity

but being at 5cps with 6 opp is fairly uncommon

[haughty merlin]

Do you open with ambush from stealth?

[gaunt phoenix]

nop

[fickle relic]

I'd say sinister strike

Ambush can't proc

Unless u are running off meta

[wintry solar]

Open with cheapshot like the old days

https://tenor.com/view/rogue-world-of-warcraft-pvp-wow-gif-9894823457652660248

[fickle relic]

Cheapshot all the way in pvp

[arctic merlin]

remove ambush from stealth bar, replace it with sinister strike

without hidden opportunity talent you should never press it

stealth is useless rotation/opener-wise for outlaw, some people even drop the move speed from the tree

outlaw is more like a warrior where you don't enter stealth or teleport around

[twilit scarab]

So i am curious, with the nerf to faze strike coming next patch are we still staying trickster or back to fb?

[glossy pewter]

Hey guys used to be an outlaw main but swapped to sin for dimmy and then have played other classes since prog ended, how are we looking? They took crack and UHUH and made RTB boring? Is this spec still fun? Am I a doomer?

[twilit scarab]

Its really fun imo

[glossy pewter]

Did you like HO builds before?

[twilit scarab]

im new, only really getting into it last season and prepatch but its so fun ive put my warrior away for a bit to just main outlaw and rogue in general.

The go into vanish and then spam crackshots i asume?

[cinder relic]

Depends who you ask. I like it a lot. Others don't

[twilit scarab]

If I am correct, I enjoyed them quite a bit for something neat, but I vastly prefer this version of outlaw where I feel far more swashbuckling. Its more of a stand and duel your oppenent with tricks than the stealth reliant builds and i like it alot more because of that. Finally all three rogues feel really different imo.

[glossy pewter]

I just feel like extendo and building up a juicy KIR with CTO was the point of outlaw. Does it not feel like you are in sludge without ADR up all the time? .8 gcd was outlaws schtick

[cinder relic]

To me the spec felt like it just had tooo much of everything in dfs3 onward

Too much rtb, too much ar. I like that ar uptime is lower overall again

[glossy pewter]

I started in dflight prepatch Dreadblades + dust so all I have known is perma ADR and im scared of not havin it all the time. What is uptime% like? What button feels good if not a big vanish window? KS? Is trickster reworked or un private aurad?

[cinder relic]

It's like 35-45% idk what it's at specifically atm

The general rotation is just what feels good to me. It's how the spec used to play for years, just building and spending and weaving in cooldowns like blade rush and bte

It's no, vanish crackshot perma spam etc but it's a different type of enjoyment

[glossy pewter]

Does hitting 4 buff still make you feel something?

[tender wedge]

yeah for sure

its very noticeable

maybe not quite as much as a 5/6 roll was previously but its pretty nice

[ashen void]

the buff is golden

of course it makes you feel something, it is gold

[gaunt phoenix]

[wintry solar]

high rolls are so frequent I love it

[glossy pewter]

What do you think? Outlaw good? Are we doing the normal bit where guy is positive and you and Zac are pissed off?

[cinder haven]

They made it so you trigger unseen blade also with ps and they put a cap (5) on flawless form and you don’t need fazed on your target for coup to give ff anymore. Should be a lot less things to micro manage but I haven’t really analysed it in detail

We caught a stray nerf to ub because sub was too good?

[gaunt phoenix]

I think it's okay. Really wanted 2 charges of AR instead of Preparation

[tender wedge]

that sounds nice actually

[keen belfry]

Well I’d argue if you had dmg meters disabled you couldn’t tell you have 4buff

But I’m busy rn

[cinder haven]

Too busy to argue but still arguing smh

Have they touched the tuning on ambush or ambush talents at all since initial midnight drop?

What about the no bte talents build but with ambush talents?

They did buff it from what i can tell hmm

Even if they don’t want ambush to hit twice with HO, HO should buff ambush damage by idk 30-40% or something

Why do they refuse to iterate? I don’t get it

[lone spear]

opportunity cost

why waste dev time on outlaw

when least played

spend more time on mage and hunter

thats my headcannon anyway

otherwise there is actually someone working on rogue and thats depressing

[cinder haven]

There can’t be surely?

[lone spear]

i mean if there is, and THIS was our beta cycle

oi vey

[cinder haven]

Just delete rogue at this point, if they think they make more money from making new classes/specs

[lone spear]

its crazy cause in other popular games, LoL, valorant, etc.

the stealthy quick ninja people are super popular

but in wow its the least

or at least way less than i think it should be

[cinder haven]

Yeah I doubt it is because no one likes the class fantasy

[lone spear]

i think there is some cool fantasy stuff hidden in the specs, but its just not made the focus cause they wanna keep it sorta general

like sub could full lean into the shadow clones stuff

especially with SEF gone from ww

or have smoke bomb actually useable for them instead of a 0% pick rate trickster choice

[nova sinew]

The hero talents for rogue just come to down to adding friction to the class with no appealing fantasy

[cinder haven]

The mix of melee and guns should kinda be enough of a spec fantasy niche for outlaw

[nova sinew]

Survival is that now too

So it’s not even outlaws niche

[lone spear]

they do be booming they stick

[cinder haven]

I haven’t tried the new iteration, sounds kinda fun tho

[lone spear]

but idk the choice of weapon isnt enough fantasy, at least for me

[nova sinew]

I always thought of outlaw as basically a duelist idk

It’s kinda got multiple themes going on

Trickster could basically be called duelist

[cinder haven]

For me the fantasy isn’t that important and sharing aspects with other specs doesn’t bother me, but no iteration on new concepts/talents/gameplay does bother me

[lone spear]

yea, dw tho, last titan rework trrrrrust

[nova sinew]

They put prep as a capstone and said jobs done

[lone spear]

by then ill be a game dev, ill apply to blizzard

[cinder haven]

Expansion by expansion stripping off all of defensives mobility and utility does bother me

[lone spear]

and ill bring back dreadblades

and we going full pirate

cannonball barrage too stay mad haters

[nova sinew]

Sub doesn’t have dreadblades anymore so maybe outlaw will get it again xd

[cinder haven]

I really don’t understand what people like so much about dreadblades specifically

[nova sinew]

Rogue not allowed to have visuals you can see in group content sorry

[lone spear]

i actually dont fuck with dreadblades with current outlaw

since we build combo points so fast anyway

but the theme is cool, using ur own life to power ur blades cause they cursed

[nova sinew]

Cue the gromnak clip yelling at his healers after his shadow word death killed him

[lone spear]

i would just make it do sumthing like a buildup, every attack does a bit more dmg but also dmgs u, but then when dreadblades ends it releases a burst of curse energy to all targets that heals u

and does big uncapped aoe dmg

[cinder haven]

But uncapped damage is forbidden on outlaw

Somehow blade rush snuck past the rule though, don’t tell them

[tender wedge]

Doesn’t tier set buff it as well? This could be our season lads

[cinder haven]

Kings of aoe!

[eager sundial]

!ui

[ornate heath]

Resources:

• ArcUI / BetterCDM - common suites for buff/cd customization
• WangBar - displays CPs/energy, customize colors per point, faster than Sensei
• MSUF - recommendation for unit frames
• Platynator - recommendation for nameplates (Jundies Profile)
  Misc:
• Mute Cold Blood sound
• EasyReminders - can show poison reminders outside of instances

[cinder haven]

Hmm

Airborne Irritant now reduces the cooldown of Blind by 50% (was 80%).

This is in the pvp section but doesnt say pvp combat only

[wintry solar]

As long as FTH hammer exists, it's kinda redundant

[wintry solar]

Build spend build is fun

I told you this like dozen times

(Once)

[cinder haven]

I guess I’m stupid for not understanding the fun of that loop

[wintry solar]

Different strokes

I never understood the fun of uhuh

[cinder haven]

I agree on that though

I need to find another game quick or I’ll get drawn in to playing midnight s1 anyway

Maybe I can play a MUD for a while

[wintry solar]

I'd say I'm playing Killing Floor 3 but all my games keep crashing

[frail veldt]

agreed

but some people do say they can "feel" the meters

people like big number

stage 4 is obv worth like 8% damage right?

the stage 3 seems def better than stage 4 that one you could definitely feel

30% rb is pretty nice esp going into blade rush

ironically I think the least noticeable stage difference is 3 to 4 haha

1 to 2 feels good, 2 to 3 feels good

I just wish we had more moments this actually changed and not just once every 30 seconds

[dark steeple]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/491956804042096650/1472046075966918760/wow_kid_hit_in_head_selecting_human_paladin.mp4?ex=6991253d&is=698fd3bd&hm=f286fa3712c82be0dd970307bc0073d2ac3956429d5b04e17589d8a1b4c15b62&

[glass anvil]

is there any reason to go stealth now?

[cinder haven]

To pass mobs unseen

[frail veldt]

rotationally? no

[cinder haven]

You can also pickpocket and sap and cheap shot !

[astral wind]

Do we ever even have a 1 roll? At least in prepatch I don't think I've not had LD for each roll

Or very close to it

[frail veldt]

yeah our 1 buff time is very low

so you pretty much play the game at 2+ 90% of the time

so in terms of rotation variance its pretty much non existent

[astral wind]

But I agree I don't "feel" the 4 buffs except for on meters or when there's a nice pink number on the website after

[frail veldt]

Yeah I mean unless youre clairvoyant you cant technically feel the 4 buff

its like saying you can feel battleshout

[wide flare]

Has apm dropped a lot with midnight?

[frail veldt]

Yeah about 25%

For some people though it's more about just being gcd locked than actual apm so some people say it doesn't feel slower to them

[glossy pewter]

I like cycling through a million fucking combo points so i can do cool stuff more than boring stuff (be in Adr, use Flaggelation for big damn, vanish for dust for another DB)

[young prism]

Are we going to shine this season?

[wintry solar]

idk, let me ask the Rothschilds

[cinder haven]

As usual it depends on tuning

[young prism]

So no lol

[cinder haven]

That’s the most likely outcome yes

[glossy pewter]

I like being able to extend the duration of the fun stuff so i can go fast, pushing buttons better than not pushing buttons. UHUH also killed maintenance buffs of bladeflurry and SnD when it first came out. (I like bladeflurry as a cheap energy CP option in AoE, pushing the button without the generation talent in aoe is not fun just a spinning plate)((the only spinning plate outlaw should have is RTB cause gambling is awesome and maintainence buffs suck))

[cinder haven]

There’s very little reason to bring outlaw to m+ or raid unless it is very competitively tuned. Not that it really matters for the level of content played by most but since everyone are meta slaves it will matter anyway

[wintry solar]

yeah I get that but I dont see how its fun when adr is up all the time

see what I mean

to me, thats just a chore that adds pressure just for the sake of it

[kindred violet]

Hello, sorry I’m quite new to rogue. May I ask if it’s normal that I can’t add “Ambush” to my CDM essentials bar ? Thank you 🙏

[cinder haven]

We should have a little less shit prio damage in m+ next season right? That’s something at least

[glossy pewter]

Its fun because the entire point of the spec is oushing buttons faster than anyone else, and not having it feels like shit. The fact that our class dies without 100% uptime and hss no burst windows is terrible for balance and our usefulness in any fight, but anything less than 100% adr uptime feels as bad as energy starving. I want to always be pushing a button and I want to do it faster than any other class. Outlaw has always had 4 buttons and the complexity comes from being able to make the right choice correctly in the fraction of a second you have to make the choice.

[cinder haven]

We don’t really use ambush in any build atm, but that shouldn’t be the reason.

[kindred violet]

Thanks so basically it’s just like that ?

[cinder haven]

In blizzards thinking ambush also automatically replaces sinister strike whenever it is available

So you are probably not meant to have to track it, idk

Or you are supposed to track the buff that makes it available

[kindred violet]

This thing I can’t simply add whatwrver I want to the CDM is crazy

😇

[cinder haven]

But you can see it with spell overlay on your keybinds i guess?

[kindred violet]

Yes, but if you want like to use essential bar as your main action bar, this becomes limited as you can’t add whatever you want

[cinder haven]

Idk why we can’t have full freedom in setting up the ui for stuff like this

Doesn’t make any sense to me

[kindred violet]

Exactly

[cinder haven]

I still haven’t bought the expansion and didn’t fiddle around much with the cdm yet so I’m the wrong person to help with this anyway

[kindred violet]

That’s why I’m still using a bar placed just on the feet of my char, when I would have used CDM instead

[wintry solar]

yeah I dont see how that is fun, which is what I was telling Tob

I dont find the fun in it, I should say

[glossy pewter]

What do you like about outlaw?

[wintry solar]

its flat dmg profile and rtb

[cinder haven]

Hmm punished for mistakes or rewarded for playing correctly, what is the difference really?

[glossy pewter]

I have a few friends who are passionate about the fact that BtE as a debuff made the spec more fun and skill expressive snd the self buff change was ass

[cinder haven]

Huh

[wintry solar]

we ignore those

[cinder haven]

That’s a take I guess

Factually wrong but ok

[wintry solar]

I like the new BtE more tbh

stacking dmg buff is cool

[cinder haven]

Debuffs just make target swapping annoying

[wintry solar]

fr

only exception was MFD my beloved

[cinder haven]

It’s not that all debuffs are bad

[glossy pewter]

Lower damage number doesnt break my flow, so i am rewarded for being right, but not punished with less fun gameplay. Loosing ADR or misusing energy and getting locked out of a GCD is a punishment

[cinder haven]

But damage increasing debuffs are bad

[wintry solar]

bte specifically was bad

yeah

[cinder haven]

Fazed also bad

[wintry solar]

thats a better way to put it

!ui

[ornate heath]

Resources:

• ArcUI / BetterCDM - common suites for buff/cd customization
• WangBar - displays CPs/energy, customize colors per point, faster than Sensei
• MSUF - recommendation for unit frames
• Platynator - recommendation for nameplates (Jundies Profile)
  Misc:
• Mute Cold Blood sound
• EasyReminders - can show poison reminders outside of instances

[cinder haven]

Yeah, but then you should like the new iteration of outlaw more than uhuh version or?

[glossy pewter]

I dont hold their opinions, so I cannot represent them fully, but the argument was that crackshot was bad and the amount of damage that BTE was doing was bad because it makes dispatch feel irrelevant, BTE was just meant to be a debuff and not do good damage

[wintry solar]

im picking up what theyre putting down

[cinder haven]

I like most of the changes they did tbh, but they should have done more iteration on the talent tree

[glossy pewter]

I dont mind the heavily punishing gameplay, i was just trying to give examples between rewarding good and punishing

[cinder haven]

I don’t think constant adr uptime was healthy

[glossy pewter]

Almost certainly isnt, but it fucking ruled

[cinder haven]

Problem is that or flat damage profile isn’t flat anymore

[wintry solar]

it was annoying at best

[glossy pewter]

Having a flat damage profile sucks really bad

For being usefull in content

[cinder haven]

But we can’t hold cds so it’s even worse than flat now

I guess we have prep

It’s something

[glossy pewter]

Not if it just lines up every time and we never have downtime

Gambler spec, just hit perfect boss design

[cinder haven]

With awangs new build we can actually take prep and get some agency

Would have preferred two adr charges though

[glossy pewter]

As someone who started late, never played "combat" i never saw outlaw as the Stand strong and fight face to face rogue, and gouge was the only button that ever really implied that and its a fuckin cc button. Outlaws identity to me was gambler, dice, RTB as variance that was interesting to react to and manage. Fatebound "theme" (if any of the rogue hero talents could be described as thematic) is my idealized version of outlaw

[wintry solar]

as someone whos played combat this super vague gunslinger theme is stupid

but its fun so whatever

I hate the KS anim so much lol

[cinder haven]

I don’t like them putting back so much power in auto attacks

Even more uptime requirements

[wintry solar]

what other addons?

icr

[cinder haven]

I’ll forgive them if they give acro back

Just do it

[wintry solar]

thatd be nice

[cinder haven]

Sneak it in, don’t tell anyone

No one plays outlaw anyway

[glossy pewter]

EnhanceQoL

It adds all the random things I had a weak aura do out of combat

[cinder haven]

How can we remember to apply poisons now?

Can we track them in cdm?

[wintry solar]

oh advanced options

[glossy pewter]

Ret is half ranged, unholy has one button that isnt 30 yard range after update, havent played survival for a few years but I assume they have some ranged extending still. When original dev came out as a mid range class, i wanted a rework to the listed above specs so they all had 25 yrd range and there was a new mid range stack, new dev just adds another class to that pile,

[cinder haven]

Its weird that a spec that is supposed to be half melee half ranged (guns) is one of the most melee range dependent specs

While also having high damage uptime requirements due to cdr

Doesn’t quite add up imo

Acro made perfect sense on outlaw

It was also FUN

Flat damage profile but tools to have more uptime than others makes sense to me

[mighty pivot]

Yeah with crackshot gone the range on PS or BtE is essentially just for pulling

[wintry solar]

lightspark released his addons

man

RiP LSUI

4 beverages in

5

scuse me

god I gotta redo the whole thing

damn you blizzard

[patent mirage]

not typing in senteces must be contagious

[wintry solar]

https://klipy.com/gifs/boyle-bottle

imagine the water is a bottle of beer

[mighty pivot]

Popo is typing in zac mode

[wintry solar]

seagrams, beer is gross

im mourning

[mighty pivot]

Post cat

[wintry solar]

he ate a mouse earlier

[patent mirage]

post chonk

[mighty pivot]

How many mice do you have in your house?

cat

[wintry solar]

best photo I can get atm

[mighty pivot]

dunno where the other cat is

[wintry solar]

ope he ran off

[mighty pivot]

you suck at taking photos

[wintry solar]

I need to start collecting photos for the cat tax

I am blasted rn fuck you

last time I was drunk playing outlaw, I got mad at uhuh and rage left

now im mad at my UI and gonna rage sleep

Wocka FLocka Flame came on spotify, all is good

[mighty pivot]

welcome to midnight

took you long enough

[cinder haven]

Are you trying to setup your ui while drunk?

[wintry solar]

it took a severe lack of judgement to start taking my ui seriously

yeah

[cinder haven]

That seems like maybe not the best of ideas

[wintry solar]

lemme tell you what my staff sergeant used to tell me

well I cant becuase its the wrong pov

but hed say figure it the fuck out

and as God as my witness, I will figure it out.

[cinder haven]

Best of luck

[wintry solar]

ty Tob

you were always a favorite of mine

[cinder haven]

Aww

[wintry solar]

oh dude you know what addon I forgot?

super imnportant

!ui

[ornate heath]

Resources:

• ArcUI / BetterCDM - common suites for buff/cd customization
• WangBar - displays CPs/energy, customize colors per point, faster than Sensei
• MSUF - recommendation for unit frames
• Platynator - recommendation for nameplates (Jundies Profile)
  Misc:
• Mute Cold Blood sound
• EasyReminders - can show poison reminders outside of instances

[wintry solar]

my UI is complete

I'd like to thank alcohol for keeping me going and Britney Spears and also Metallica for kepeing the hype

[mighty pivot]

show pic

I bet it's ugly af

[vapid sundial]

[wintry solar]

pass

[mighty pivot]

pussy

[round spindle]

!wang

[wintry solar]

if someone nicer asked I would

[vapid sundial]

@keen belfry

[wintry solar]

theres no way to remove CP from my own frame is there

[mighty pivot]

you won't find anyone nicer than me in this chat

[wintry solar]

very not true

[wintry solar]

okay you can

yippee!

okay NOW im done

[pastel sierra]

Not with base UI

[wintry solar]

Yeah I got it. Got worried for a minute there.

[mighty pivot]

rude and false

[quaint mauve]

let me see your ui

[jolly geyser]

nice gato

[tropic zephyr]

You should let him see your ui that cat doesn't looks like he's fucking around

[jolly geyser]

cat that doesnt mince words

[hearty lagoon]

Show pls

[jolly geyser]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747561446539395205/1472227070309302467/RDT_20260211_1351305163234726674391812.jpg?ex=6991cdce&is=69907c4e&hm=cd2105d8c0207aad2ac1b4232fa73511584f1e5cdc13906492e9c9ec629df8e8&

[cinder haven]

Is this real?

[jolly geyser]

yea

[thick valve]

Does anyone have a reliable addon that shows my racials/trinkets/potions?

[formal thunder]

outlaw nerfed again

not long til we heal the boss

[thick valve]

you mean Unseen Blade reduced?

[rapid elm]

are we locking any discords bros

[cinder relic]

Why would we

[jolly geyser]

rogues arent babies

[astral wind]

Joined 7 days ago tracks, former Ret player?

[rapid elm]

nah, new discord

joined in Dragonflight

[thorn parrot]

I feel like outlaw is the new enhance at this point lmfao

[vapid sundial]

i mean

outlaw basically just went back to its old playstyle

no?

like very old

[dense coral]

Show us

[rich basin]

so, right now

we do not have vanish /stealth in the rotation, correct?

not even the opener?

[arctic merlin]

no

you don't need stealth or vanish for anything other than breaking aggro and accessing stealth utility like stuns or shroud

[rich basin]

thanks

[arctic merlin]

if you go shadowrunner talent you can use them for move speed buff

otherwise you can just play without ever pressing stealth

[rich basin]

is there a list of common macros?

[arctic merlin]

im not familiar, but i've been doing good without macros, might be worth checking #outlaw-faq or pinned messages here, but im unsure

[faint pendant]

https://www.method.gg/guides/outlaw-rogue/interface-and-macros

[rich basin]

ty ty

[cedar kernel]

are u the one who is me? :sus

nice name btw

[cobalt token]

Atleast that would be funny

This is just depressing

[rich basin]

just somebody trying to learn outlaw. is this spec mid tier, right?

[cedar kernel]

uhhhh

i cant tell bc i am not playing the game anymore since they broke the ui that i made for 2 years

[covert kestrel]

https://tenor.com/view/always-has-been-meme-astronaut-gif-23926290

[crimson scarab]

does anyone run the lily of eternal weave as a trinket?

i was just playing around with sims and running lily and antenna is 2,2% better than running cosmic hunt and antenna, all are the same ilvl

and im not sure if simcraft is bugged

[safe pasture]

ok so with weak auras i used to have it so abilities would show up in the middle of my screen(relatively) wehn they came off cd for example bf, bte etc. is there any add on that can do this now or any way to do a similar action with the new built in system? i dont want to see the abilities if they arent available

used to be like a way to see x options are available right now so i could pick from them

[astral wind]

Yeah better CDM (tbh just the basic cooldown manager) can do this

[safe pasture]

sorry im not seeing this on curse whats the actual add on name?

and i tried with the built in one but couldnt find any way to do it

[astral wind]

Better cooldown manager

[safe pasture]

ty!

[latent marsh]

just started playing rogue...Sub was pretty easy for me to get the rotation...Outlaw though...I read the faq so I understand the rotation but it feels like a lot to pay attention to

[safe pasture]

it gets easier the more you play it and once you get your ui set up and stuff

[safe pasture]

also i downloaded it and have been trying to figure it out where in the settings for this add on can i chance the action that occurs when the trigger occurs?

as far as im seeing I can only change its location and stuff on the better cdm bar or add more things

[latent marsh]

I hope so...u got 3 different finishers with one of them proccing a 4th finisher, 4 CDs, and a builder proc...feels like u have to always watch ur UI rather then paying attention to whats on screen (interrupts, etc)

right now I'm using the One-button assist as a poor mans Hekli:

I dont actually press it...just watch it for whats next

[hollow garnet]

kind of a minmaxy question but when talented into deft maneuvers is it better to cast blade flurry prior to aoe to have it up right away or cast it when aoe happens to get combo points

[gaunt phoenix]

cast it onto targets

Not just for cps but its more damage than your other builders too

[jolly geyser]

also move combo bar to right

[gaunt phoenix]

You don't need to track

I'm assuming that's for Coup de Grace

[latent marsh]

I was tracking Coupe de proc

[gaunt phoenix]

that just happens when it happens, dont need to see it

dispatch itself automatically converts into coup de grace when it's ready

[latent marsh]

ahh ok...I thought it was a priority over Between the eyes?

[gaunt phoenix]

No BtE has priority

[rancid silo]

BTE is king

[latent marsh]

I also notice on one button assist I press AR then RtB, them I'm thinking the next button would be Blade Rush or BtE then Blade rush but instead its BtE then SS? is that correct?

[gaunt phoenix]

Blade Rush has priority, since it is a cooldown

or you lose cooldown reduction on it

[latent marsh]

ok...thats what I though

thx

[hollow garnet]

also, is it even possible to trigger deadly pursuit on dimensius?

[gaunt phoenix]

Yeah

[hollow garnet]

i dunno why but everytime i do an intermission it doesnt seem to be active

[gaunt phoenix]

As soon as you spend 15 combo points, it will perpetually wait until you have 4 seconds of downtime, then activate

but it can randomly activate just doing your normal rotation

so then you have to spend 15 cps again

[hollow garnet]

yeah i was about to ask

if it needs the 15 points again

hmm

maybe thats it

with the timings i'm doing if i get gravity i might not have time to get the 15 points before we phase

[rancid silo]

i forgot gravity exists

[keen belfry]

Newton be like

[crimson scarab]

what do u guys think of the current DPS state of outlaw in M+?

I am almost dead last as DPS, and I am pretty sure im playing the spec quite well, and in warcraft logs it says a 97% percentile for example

[gaunt phoenix]

In prepatch we suck

In beta i havent been all that impressed either

[crimson scarab]

currently i meant prepatch yeah

its like im 10K overall DPS below the 1st one and still get a 97%

so the current state of outlaw is just super bad, right?

[gaunt phoenix]

a bunch of specs are nerfed on reset

[jolly geyser]

I might play sub

[gaunt phoenix]

97% on the left or right

cause the left number is like based on dungeon rating

The right one is dps

among outlaws who have logged the same key (probably not a whole lot)

[crimson scarab]

the 97% is for the key, not the ilvl. I am not sure if I understand your question correctly

[gaunt phoenix]

The key% one is for dps

[velvet frigate]

I will never get why we play a mid dps, which is super hard and not 4 button sub or assa, who can basicly eat while doing keys and still outperform most other classes.

[pastel sierra]

bc it's more fun

[gaunt phoenix]

it's fun !

[crimson scarab]

so if I understand correctly, i had higher dps than 70% of outlaw rogues who ran such a key right?

[gaunt phoenix]

Yeah but probably only like 15 outlaws logged that key

The * means very low sample size

[latent marsh]

DPS meters dont seem to work right for Outlaw...I doubt BF was 55% of my damage unless its talking about the AoE caused by BF which is a stupid way to track that

[gaunt phoenix]

It does yeah

The aoe damage is done as blade flurry

Like when you cast BtE, BtE hits 1 target and then blade flurry hits the rest

[fossil lintel]

is this your first time as outlaw?

that is pretty normal

[velvet frigate]

True

[craggy quiver]

I haven't played wow since raid

Is bte supposed to be that low

With rework

[latent marsh]

yeah...my 1st time as rogue...tried Sub now trying Outlaws...trying to figure out my main for Midnight...didnt expect to enjoy rogue but so far I am

[fossil lintel]

Makes sense, welcome to outlaw

But yeah our damage meter usually looks like that and people assume we just press one button in aoe and that's it

[gaunt phoenix]

Some of it is the blade flurry cast itself which does damage

wish they would break that one out

[pastel sierra]

it's like saying shadow priest only presses psychic link in AoE

[pastel sierra]

you can check it in logs I'm pretty sure

[gaunt phoenix]

No, bte should be highest or second highest in prepatch

[crimson scarab]

usually auto attacks are quite high

[fossil lintel]

i know but the amount of times I got called out for playing an "easy class" because BF was more than half my dungeon is insane

[pastel sierra]

just tell em to log on outlaw and match your dmg in a new run

[fossil lintel]

people like to find any excuse to why they got gapped

[untold wadi]

not sure how anyone could type something like this genuinely

without knowing the spec lol

[fossil lintel]

Oh it wasn't typed, it was said over voice on discord. And yeah they had no idea how outlaw works.

happened at least 3 times with different guildies

[upper surge]

@glass mortar come back home

You'll be safe here

[glass mortar]

Ty

Bunch of non yellow names posting over there

Very spooky

[arctic merlin]

i tried playing unholy dk, a good spec which is simple

it's just very boring

oh my spell came off cd let me just press it

[frail veldt]

so many times

"bro youre just pressing one button"

[patent mirage]

]

killing spree

[untold wadi]

or the amount of people who don't believe you about hard cap until u link the blade flurry tooltip

[glass mortar]

nah they believe u have a hardcap

they will just unironically claim they also have a hardcap

so many specs

"yea bro well so am i" meanwhile ur tank pulls 20 mobs and they are doing double the damage they did on 8

look at damage breakdown

40% of their damage sources r softcapped or uncapped

[untold wadi]

insane true

https://tenor.com/view/walter-white-truth-nuke-walter-white-true-breaking-bad-truth-nuke-breaking-bad-true-gif-2370094217877194192

[glass mortar]

"look man my pure filler that doesnt do any real damage anyway is hardcapped at 5 targets life is rough bro "

[untold wadi]

imagine blade flurry stacked

[fathom bramble]

it is a wonder that people haven't figured this out when outlaw/combat has looked like that on meters for 15 years

how have so many people never seen an outlaw rogue before

[jaunty rose]

Over under on outlaw being fun before midnight launch 🙁

[glass mortar]

people just always act like that anyway

[keen belfry]

ive had good players be baffled by my dmg breakdown lol

[frail veldt]

if its not fun for you right now it wont be fun in midnight most likely

[glass mortar]

i played fire mage back in BfA

[keen belfry]

some people aint got a clue about other ppls specs

[glass mortar]

s3 when ur damage breakdown would be 80-90% ignite

[frail veldt]

pre patch/midnight dont feel very different imo

[glass mortar]

u have a bit more energy in midnight and u have the apex which i personally dont find fun but u might

[fathom bramble]

I'm really missing crackshot rn

I know I complained about how much worse we could be in solo content without it

but cleaning up some old reps it's worse than I thought

[frail veldt]

well kind of, most people are gona be way down on haste for a while

so midnight is going to start out feeling worse than now

[glass mortar]

bro we are so bad in the open world the drop off has been crazy

[frail veldt]

by a good amount imo

[fathom bramble]

walking to mobs one at a time so I can melee oneshot them and have my ability not even cleave

[glass mortar]

compared to crackshot

[fathom bramble]

👌

[glass mortar]

u could legit clear old "farmed" world content with crackshot law just running around only shooting ur gun

because of BtE never being on cd

just dipping in and out of stealth

didnt even need to get into melee range of most mobs

[keen belfry]

crackshot so peak

how did law get worse in open world wtf

[glass mortar]

i mean

crackshot was literally ur highest damage window of the spec

and u had infinite of it in the open world

its not that surprising

[fathom bramble]

I wish extra shots of pistol shot automatically went to other targets you were in combat with

[glass mortar]

it got less frustrating, but weaker

[fathom bramble]

if the main one died

[fathom bramble]

yeah I mean we have always had resets of some kind on kill/restealth to help with open world stuff

crackshot and other stealth stuff was fairly typical for years and now we just have nothing

feels very rough compared to almost any previous iteration

[graceful rover]

So is outlaw the go to m+ spec in pre patch?

[untold wadi]

old/easy content with crackshot and subterfuge was too peak

had to remove

[glass mortar]

i mean it had bad friction

we cant deny that

for ur average player playing around vanish in solo content sucked ass

it was like trying to outplay ur own spec design

but lord was it strong in that content if u pulled it off

i felt like a legit tank on outlaw playing solo content. u could tank rares and solo elites i dont even dream of on other dps specs

maybe havoc as good because tons of built in leech

[fathom bramble]

I don't disagree that it had terrible friction for new and casual players, and maybe crackshot had to go just because of that

[glass mortar]

i dont mean to imply it was hard to play around either

[fathom bramble]

but this is the first iteration where we lost or restealth/kill resets without getting a new one

[glass mortar]

especially if u made a macro

yup

i mean ive been advocating for an "on death" mechanic for rogue for years to help smooth out leveling

because most other pure melee have them

hell even non pure melee have them

dh have souls which heal for a TON when a mob dies, the big souls

monks get an orb drop that heals them and gives them chi

warriors get a reset on their 30% hp self heal ability

dks get a free death strike that heals for like 3X

[cinder relic]

Yeah I guess this is a bad version of outlaw for world content. No mfd, no subterfuge etc

What if low key u do subterfuge / ho build for world content

And u drop kir stuff

[glass mortar]

they should add a leveling passive where like, when u kill a target that gives xp/honor (the classic "on death" counter) your vial cd is reset and the next one generates energy instead of costing it

[vivid vessel]

mfd

[glass mortar]

mfd would also work sure

theres alot of things they could do

[fathom bramble]

bonespike

[keen belfry]

what about a short window that astarts on combat where we can spam BTE for 6 seconds

[glass mortar]

[keen belfry]

just spitballing

[fathom bramble]

When you kill an enemy that grants experience or honor your next Crimson Vial within 5 seconds has no cooldown and grants 150 energy over the duration.

Killing an enemy grants Opportunity

Ambush has a 30 yard range while stealthed and for 6 seconds after breaking stealth

[untold wadi]

shadow dance

fk a vanish

[lethal oak]

I expect a 5% aura nerf and a 30% buff to KS and they call it a day

[glass mortar]

literally any open world/solo sustain passive would go very far

ive been advocating for that even in the crackshot days tho rogue is one of the most awful leveling experiences in the game and has been forever

blizz just doesnt care because leveling is easy content

what r u gunna do

[inland acorn]

they don't care, because they hope you'll buy their lvl boost

[fathom bramble]

our leveling has been so bad since the level squish

without any targetted fixes for it

[rancid silo]

i feel like our leveling would own auto attack our way throug the world

[glass mortar]

not rlly

ur autos are still weaker then they were pre legion and pre legion leveling wasnt much better

[rancid silo]

they might be weaker but i feel like aslong as we dont get fury warrior treatment with their autos im happy

still probably gonna level as sub tho Sstrike too op

[glass mortar]

we arent far off from them if we are bein honest

but yea fury is funny, rampage needs to do way more

[frail veldt]

Wdym they removed crackshot so we don't have to vanish in open world now

We're definitely way better off now

There's no negative side effects to that at all

[wintry solar]

nope

[stuck patrol]

I still feel like rogue will continue to be one of the least played classes simply because they refuse to put all energy gain talents earlier in the talent trees

Bc people try to level a rogue and it feels like dogshit and they don't have fun

[normal forge]

i feel that rogues are not popular bc dmg is low, thats all, like, take a hunter, u do so much more dmg just by pressing ur forehead against the keyboard

[stuck patrol]

Rogue damage has been fine lol

You will still have a large chunk of players play BM hunter even if it's the worst spec damage wise

All three rogue specs were the best dps specs in Sanctum of Domination and they still were one of the least played classes

[gritty dust]

people like different things, its just the way it is

[stuck patrol]

Yes, but rogue was the most played class early in WoW's history

[normal forge]

what? when?

[fathom bramble]

when pvp especially of the open world variety was something people cared about

idk about most played but it was definitely more played

[stuck patrol]

Rogue is also one of the most popular D&D aesthetics ever

[stuck patrol]

Vanilla/BC

[wintry solar]

Theme and animations hard carry spec popularity tbh

We just need a good flashy button

And one that's not a janky mess. Looking at you Killing Spree.

[cinder relic]

Rogue has been unpopular since cataclysm, probably even sooner than that, I just can't find wrath daya

You can point to like, any one individual reason for why rogue isn't popular but like, it's a handful of reasons.

[stuck patrol]

Yeah i recall they made the leggo to try and increase rogue players

[stuck patrol]

I'm bringing up the data on internet archive, is there a particular year you're looking for?

[lime lake]

1946

[cinder relic]

It's how combo points used to be, it's how energy as a system has always been, it's because it's not flashy, it's because rogues in wow ate viewed as "scummy" in the old days of wpvp

[jolly geyser]

cc to kill etc

[stuck patrol]

https://web.archive.org/web/20060328012741/http://warcraftrealms.com/census.php

Data for just before BC came out

[wintry solar]

Sub rogue all the time since vanilla

Hasn't changed a bit

[stuck patrol]

https://web.archive.org/web/20100301111919/http://warcraftrealms.com/census.php
Data for a couple months after ICC came out

It isn't bad, but even at the peak of Wrath, rogue was tied as one of the least played classes