outlaw

[frail veldt]

but yeah esp outside of raid having some group utility, brez, hero, strong raid buff goes a long way

and anyone who has played rogue outside of a guaranteed spot in a guild raid knows how it is viewed by lfg lol

[cinder relic]

Grip is the best raid buff by far

[granite merlin]

BRZ and grip.

[frail veldt]

I think blizz has stated that grip is their raid buff

[cinder relic]

People not viewing grip as a raid buff is beyond stupid IMO

It's like warlock gate

Some fights u literally need grip, and there isn't a consistent replacement for it

[civic meadow]

Dimensus is actually cancer without a dk or two

[granite merlin]

lol remeber Dathea when one DK could aoe flappy hands the entire platform down for cleave while the other platform without a dk would half get murdered

[civic meadow]

Grip is def a raid buff

[fathom bramble]

Grip and gate are definitely good in their own right, but aren’t raidbuffs

[cinder relic]

what dos it qualify as if not a raid buff

[granite merlin]

But battle Rez anti magic shell and grip

[fathom bramble]

Raid utility probably

[jolly geyser]

what is the 1 thing you think about when you see a dk? grip,frost and undead stuff

[limpid grotto]

unique class utility isnt a buff but it's prob worth more tbh

rogues lack that type of utility which is bad for anything outside of raid

[jolly geyser]

kidney bosses

[fathom bramble]

raid buffs to me are an effect that passively affects your entire raid with little to no user input while not scaling to any meaningful degree when you have multiple players offering it

healthstones/gate kind of meet half that requirement to me

[granite merlin]

I said in other chat at least give us a skill called hide the body where you could cloak of shadow a party member like sac bubble or raid member. Or give tricks the ability to mini PI someone (someone else’s idea)

[fathom bramble]

while grip falls squarely in raid utility like any other CC

it's just incredibly powerful and unique cc

[jolly geyser]

smoke bomb in pve again

[limpid grotto]

sap, gouge, kidney, blind just aren't used widely if at all in any pve scenario

thats p much their whole kit

[granite merlin]

Warriors complain they have zero utility. Meanwhile ranged stun, aoe stun, battle shout, group defensive :/

[mighty pivot]

on average atro = devo (without AM). But they both have advantages and disadvantages (atro will reduce more in a big room where not everyone is covered and/or with no damage from no debuffed targets)

[limpid grotto]

I dont think any of them complain now lol

They are pretty much offensive rets

[cinder relic]

Sure

[civic meadow]

They had the right to complain before lmao

[granite merlin]

Now they don’t but even when they did

[civic meadow]

but no longer ya

[jolly geyser]

fury warrs got a lot, I play one

[fathom bramble]

on most fights atro is above devo

[granite merlin]

I still have a massive soft spot in my heart for arms warrior ❤️

[fathom bramble]

it's pretty rare to even see over 15% of the fight damage coming from non atro-able sources

but the difference is pretty minimal

the other thing is that damage mitigation raidbuffs are not nearly as valued by the playerbase as damage increases

so devo, atro, and priest will all be seen as weak

[cinder relic]

Yeah

Despite them all being important (For prog)

[limpid grotto]

tbf that only showcases Warrior even more given they retained Shattering and 8% AP shout despite the massive defensive/utility gains

[timid portal]

!ui

[ornate heath]

Resources:

• ArcUI / BetterCDM - common suites for buff/cd customization
• WangBar - displays CPs/energy, customize colors per point, faster than Sensei
• MSUF - recommendation for unit frames
• Platynator - recommendation for nameplates (Jundies Profile)
  Misc:
• Mute Cold Blood sound
• EasyReminders - can show poison reminders outside of instances

[low glade]

rogue should have lust, brez, and grip imo

[jolly geyser]

raid vial. gives bl

[mighty pivot]

rogues have plenty of lust in them

[jolly geyser]

or rogue gives lifesteal

some buff

[fathom bramble]

fun fact: when they were first designing all the new raidbuffs to give each class 1 DK had 5% leech as theirs

[mighty pivot]

vampiric aura rogues

[low glade]

rogue leech is cool on paper, but would be super lame

[fathom bramble]

and it got scrapped

[low glade]

honor amongst thieves with the extra crit given to everyone would be cool

[vapid sundial]

There is literally only one cool raid buff

and its windfury

[low glade]

skyfury*

[vapid sundial]

suck me

[low glade]

[fathom bramble]

I don't think we need 2 raid buffs

[vapid sundial]

its not a raid buff loktark!!!

[fathom bramble]

atro is already strong enough to be a given in 98% of raid encounters

[vapid sundial]

its a boss debuff!!!

[fathom bramble]

what we need is for all raid buffs to be disabled in keys

[jolly geyser]

or rogues gives a small chance you can use the same ability again right after using it

[vapid sundial]

https://giphy.com/gifs/ap6wcjRyi8HoA

[low glade]

or just have all of them active

[fathom bramble]

and like 3 more classes to have lust/bres

[vapid sundial]

Nah

[low glade]

all healers should get bres imo

[vapid sundial]

just give

[fathom bramble]

comps in keys are getting waaay too restrictive and annoying

[vapid sundial]

okay

ngkl

one thing about fellowship thats nice is the way they got around that was teh buffs are trinket based

and trinkets arent dmg

ik wow cant do that but

its an example

[low glade]

[vapid sundial]

I think we just need M+ specific talents

[low glade]

the wow killer

[mighty pivot]

new slot for instruments you can use to give buffs

[vapid sundial]

i dont think anyone called it a wow killer

im not saying anything until i see season2

[civic meadow]

happens when a game drops and gets no updates rofl

[fathom bramble]

most M+ specific stuff can probably just sit in the regular utility tree since it hardly effects raids

[low glade]

affects*

got your back maverick

[vapid sundial]

Seasonal game gets seasonal update

could you imagine that

insane

[fathom bramble]

I mean they were trying to make 1 single wow feature that most people participating in seem to hate into an entire game

idk if that was ever a winning plan

[vapid sundial]

Im pretty sure they made enough off the initial sales to keep developing through EA

so im just waiting to see

[fathom bramble]

yeah probably

as long as development hasn't stalled I'm optimistic that it'll become good eventually

but I fear that it's too niche to last a long time idk

[upbeat widget]

If between the eyes proc multiple times do I have to build CP in between to spend or can I just spend regardless?

[fathom bramble]

build in between

[low glade]

!awangui

[keen belfry]

I THINK when ppl talk about raid buff they also count its impact outside of raid (m+) but also i disagree with dks saying raid buff doesnt count

[low glade]

[keen belfry]

!wang

[low glade]

bit late boss, i think the convo is over

[tender wedge]

Wang!

[keen belfry]

says you

hey guys thoughts on dk raid buff

[civic meadow]

Buff as much as any of the other ones

[low glade]

someone post the pasta

[civic meadow]

https://tenor.com/view/pasta-pasta-recipe-gif-26074240

pasta

[tender wedge]

DKs have no raid buff, they have important raid utility. Comparing it to a buff is disingenuous as buffs are always beneficial and grip is not always required

Don’t @ me

[jolly geyser]

@tender wedge

[tender wedge]

Better compared to time spiral from evoker

[low glade]

time spiral is OP

[tender wedge]

So is grip…when you have adds that need it

But it’s not a buff

Great necro there awang, top work

[cinder relic]

Utilty and a buff is the same shiet

[fathom bramble]

I mean if we say grip counts as a raidbuff instead of group utility then basically any utility being a 'raidbuff' is fairgame and it stops meaning anything

grip is definitely really good

[low glade]

is blind a raid buff?

[gaunt phoenix]

do you use it in the raid?

[fathom bramble]

but it's not a raidbuff

[low glade]

yeah

[cinder relic]

I just hate the framing. It's implying that DKs needs a raidbuff to be viable

[mighty pivot]

I used it on the demon hunter bosses, that's why they are all blind for you guys

[fathom bramble]

I'm aware some people want to frame it that way, but that's not my intention

[tender wedge]

I think that’s the point of the question

[fathom bramble]

also we saw DKs absolutely take over on the ground of tuning and raid utility at the start of SL

so it's clearly not the case that they NEED a raidbuff

[cinder relic]

It's like how warlock doesn't provide a raid buff, but literally every single tier u play at least 1 warlock

Warlock utility and DK utility is like the same thing in my mind

Both of which aren't literal raid buffs, but they are irriplaceable

[tender wedge]

Now we’re talking

[fathom bramble]

only difference is that warlock has 2 utility things

[low glade]

love it when great minds meet, and I get a seat in the front row

[fathom bramble]

gate is kind of in the same territory as grip in that it is sometimes mandatory, sometimes good, and sometimes useless

but healthstone is always there for you

[frail veldt]

yeah I think people need to think more about overall "non dps value"

[tender wedge]

I very slightly disagree, because healthstone is always useful

[frail veldt]

like warlock

[tender wedge]

Gate is on the same level as grip though

[cinder relic]

Healthstone could be adjacenetly compared to AMZ

[frail veldt]

warlock has gate, healthstone, brez

[low glade]

what about rescue

[frail veldt]

rescue is defintely considered in the specs non dps raid value

[fathom bramble]

healthstone is just so much better though and doesn't stack with adding additional warlocks

[cinder relic]

I agree

[tender wedge]

Why doesn’t the blue guy get a stick 🙁

[fathom bramble]

so it kind of incentivizes bringing just the 1

[frail veldt]

but when you think this way you really start to realize how low rogue raid value is hahaha

[fathom bramble]

while if AMZ is ever actually good you end up with 4-6 DKS

[low glade]

what do you think they're sitting on

[cinder relic]

There are fights you do need double gates

[tender wedge]

Oh shit

[fathom bramble]

that's true

[frail veldt]

healthstone is about as close to a raid buff as you can get without being a raid buff

[fathom bramble]

only one I can remember is dim, but I'm sure there was at least 1 other at some point

[frail veldt]

since its capped value at 1 warlock

[cinder relic]

Itg's like, imagine if warlocks started the talking point that "warlock doesn't have a raid buff, they need to be given one"

[gaunt phoenix]

[frail veldt]

in the same vein though I will say rogue has a raid buff but needs to be given more utility haha

[cinder relic]

You'd probably say something like; "well hold on, you have all these other tools that provide value. These aren't raid buffs in the literal sense but you do offer something that no other class in the entire game offers. Do you really ALSO need a raid buff?"

[frail veldt]

our "non dps value" is fucking garbo

[cinder relic]

At least, that's how I see the whole "DK raid buff" meme

[fathom bramble]

yeah that's probably accurate

[tender wedge]

I think the better thing to think about is the perceived value between dps-improving raid buffs vs survivability or utility buffs

[chilly atlas]

remove all raid buff

[cinder relic]

on a lot of fights, gate does nothing (like grip)
But when a fight needs a gate, there isn't an alternative

[frail veldt]

healthstone is always valuable though which is good

that really is their raid buff

[gaunt phoenix]

remove all raidbuff for m+

[cinder relic]

and again my comparison would be to AMZ

[chilly atlas]

definitely

[frail veldt]

TRU

[low glade]

when the group wipes because the boss aoe overkilled by 3%

[chilly atlas]

that's where the implementation gets sloppiest and serves no real purpose

or at least put back war scrolls

[frail veldt]

also tru

[jolly geyser]

I would remove racials and raid buffs

[tender wedge]

Yeah inscription needs a buff too

[fathom bramble]

racials have got to go

[low glade]

dwarf absolutely farms in keys next season

so many high value dwarf racials

[fathom bramble]

people pretend they don't matter and then fawn over the 'correct' build that is less of a DPS difference than dwarf/tauren vs. orc

[chilly atlas]

i think more unique utility could be neat, but i feel it leads to the same problems in the end anyway

[fathom bramble]

raidbuffs are a nice way to have raid utility that gaurantees a class is brought without being so overbearing that you want many copies of that class

if blizz wants every class to be a 1 of in raid then they should probably all have raidbuffs

though there is the question of whether 1 of each class being present in a mythic raid by default is a good or bad thing

[low glade]

thoughts on wow classic raid comps?

[fathom bramble]

setting that aside, raidbuffs are the best way to achieve it if it is worth doing at all

[fathom bramble]

interesting

basically any piece of info about classic raid somehow makes me even less interested

[tender wedge]

Aptly named Druid

[fathom bramble]

when my interest was already 0

[gaunt phoenix]

2 rog

[chilly atlas]

retail balance gap is far less wide though

[tender wedge]

Although at least he bring mark of the wild

[chilly atlas]

even with no buffs would be more representation

[low glade]

i honestly don't even know what the rogues are there for

[jolly geyser]

expose

idk

[slim hare]

not true during prepatch for more than a month x)

[jolly geyser]

high ilvl

[chilly atlas]

prepatch is fake tho

[low glade]

does expose stack with sunder?

[tender wedge]

It counts as charity work for a tax credit

[low glade]

surely they have enough sunders

[jolly geyser]

warrs are slackers

doesnt sunder cost fury

[fathom bramble]

this is probably true

[frail veldt]

well havent they accomplished this mostly?

its pretty close to 1 of every in raid

[fathom bramble]

yeah it is

you just lose the DK occasionally

everyone else is more or less a given

[frail veldt]

there are some stragglers

and I think the problem arrises outside of raid

or esp outside of raid prog

[fathom bramble]

or rogue on fights where rogue is bad AND atrophic doesn't work

which are insanely rare

[frail veldt]

where people prioritize the offensive raid buffs first

[fathom bramble]

yeah raidbuffs only really have design issues outside of raid

[limpid isle]

one is there to imp expose armor, the other is there to pump this is the way of the olden days.

warrior cleave era was fun at a time.

bosses dying in 45 seconds

[fathom bramble]

if you lost all 3 purely defensive raidbuffs and tried to rekill a boss I suspect it would go very poorly

[low glade]

does expose stack with sunder?

[limpid isle]

no it overwrites sunder if improved talented

[fathom bramble]

their cumulative value is pretty significant

[frail veldt]

fort, devo, atro right?

[low glade]

ah gotcha

[fathom bramble]

yeah

[frail veldt]

I think you could lose one and be okay

[low glade]

classic mfs undressing bosses and slamming cheeks!

[fathom bramble]

and mark of the wild is like half defensive so we can not count that

[frail veldt]

but yeah all 3 combined is big

[jolly geyser]

had to wait for someone who remembers

[frail veldt]

esp cuz fort scales off of others

I think fort is deceptively strong

[limpid isle]

i still play classic era from time to time as Expose bot. its just a chill vibe really.

[jolly geyser]

yee

[limpid isle]

although the raid lifestyle to retail vastly different, the amount of consumes you need in classic goes GIGA

[low glade]

classic leveling with the homies is a vibe for sure

i liked rogue pvp a ton

i did the original release and just farmed AV for a few weeks

[frail veldt]

idk how people do it

[limpid isle]

10min prep just to 2nd blind to reset in pvp goodtimes.

[jolly geyser]

I always raided with a warr untill it was removed, I did more dmg anyway

[timid portal]

@keen belfry do u have ur full UI somewhere?

[limpid isle]

some people just live and die by the sword of that open world engagement, world buffs, making consumes etc.

[low glade]

!awangui

[jolly geyser]

!awank

[limpid isle]

warriors just got that oomph. and execute phase was kino for warriors.

[jolly geyser]

he didnt mind, we pumped together

[limpid isle]

warrior rogue comps in tbc arena was pretty meaty to. CC bot into warrior slamming deleting peoples.

[keen belfry]

cant believe solo has to make an awang command

gl solo

[frail veldt]

I mean mostly just time wise haha its crazy the mount of chores you have to do in classic to even start playing the gmae

but I guess those chores are the game to them

[limpid isle]

the game begins when you hit 60 and not everyone is a 4 day leveling andy

[keen belfry]

not yet solo has to make it

the !wangui

[normal forge]

BR charge feels good, not gonna lie

[limpid isle]

https://klipy.com/gifs/always-has-been-among-us

[timid portal]

im already a proud member of wangui, waiting for rest then

[keen belfry]

has br changed other than the animation

[fathom bramble]

no

[limpid isle]

still same

[fathom bramble]

mechanically it is still great

[keen belfry]

good button

needs to give more energy

[fathom bramble]

I think it might be our longest running unchanged spell 🤔

only thing that has ever changed is the damage

[normal forge]

difference is that now i use it

[limpid isle]

i remember back in SL we used it, or maybe that was just me.

[fathom bramble]

actually dispatch might be tied with blade rush

I think BR was added at the same time that dispatch lost the bonus range

[jolly geyser]

kick

uuh

[fathom bramble]

do we count kick randomly having a new and different duration ?

[limpid isle]

kicks CD was changed i thought? it used to be like 8 seconds now its 15 right? or something

[normal forge]

i played SL for 30 days at most, and as boomie

[fathom bramble]

kick lockout is getting changed to 7 seconds in midnight

[normal forge]

what i dont like is having to press dispatch for SND, just make it passive ffs

[fathom bramble]

or something

[jolly geyser]

stealth

[fathom bramble]

6 actually

[jolly geyser]

easy answer

[limpid isle]

you are right CttC should happen off both finishers, dispatch and BtE

[fathom bramble]

true actually

I feel like snd should just be a passive

not triggered by anything

[jolly geyser]

bfa mode

[fathom bramble]

just passive attackspeed all rogues get

[limpid isle]

but what would replace SnD if we prune another button? 🤔

[fathom bramble]

cut to the chase, Replaces slice and dice. You attack speed is increased by 50%

[normal forge]

too hard to code that snd into passive i guess

[fathom bramble]

snd is already functionally pruned

[frail veldt]

Wouldn't that be nice

[frail veldt]

Except it does impact our opener rotation haha

V dumb

[jolly geyser]

snd it hardcoded to the default bag etc etc

[fathom bramble]

yeah I guess it does

[normal forge]

no time to work on that, gotta make house assets

[limpid isle]

having SnD perma running would feel awk but I guess we could learn to love it

[quaint mauve]

i mean im liking current outlaw more and more but i still feel so slow

like painfully slow

[frail veldt]

Or just remove it as a buff

It can just be a talent like lok said

[limpid isle]

bake it into RtB

[frail veldt]

No just remove it

Permanent passive

No buff

[fathom bramble]

quickest and easiest fix is to just add the other finishers to cut to the chase

[frail veldt]

No nothing

[frail veldt]

Yeah that would work too

[jolly geyser]

could make either KS or bte a burst thingy with longer cd

[glass mortar]

Could literally just read spending combo points

Why's it even need to be tied to a finisher

[normal forge]

wtf is this

[limpid isle]

yes make it a burst again. instead of a "welp if i hit something, I hit something" button

[jolly geyser]

or the more points you spend your finishers at it spreads to nearby enemies, like 1 or 2 points on enemies that does extra dmg next finisher

[fathom bramble]

I suspect the only reason it is tied to eviscerate/envenom/dispatch is because that's how it always was in the past

and they just brought back the old passive as it was

[glass mortar]

Yup

[jolly geyser]

was fun in wotlk pvp thou with full arp gear and gems

[limpid isle]

Deleting people in 7 hits is fun

[frail veldt]

thats prob a trigger that would require more changes to the code of cut the chase

adding other finishers to the flag that casts snd is probably easier

[limpid isle]

speaking of other finishers good ol Recup. may you rest in pepperonis

[jolly geyser]

what I dont miss is points on target,good lord

[mighty pivot]

we have recuperate at home

[jolly geyser]

water

[limpid isle]

they made recup a passive, so that they could reintroduce it reimagined as a vibe button to replenish health. with animations just Sadge

[limpid isle]

yeah redirect gameplay in CMs to spam for CDR is pretty hectic ngl

[mighty pivot]

our current recuperate is basically this ancient troll regen racial meme https://www.wowhead.com/wotlk/spell=20555/regeneration#comments:id=789596

[limpid isle]

thats brilliant

[frail veldt]

recup was like vial but it cost cps right?

I didnt play back then

[limpid isle]

yes you could basically keep it perma up if yo uwanted

no one could do anything about it

[frail veldt]

not sure I like how that sounds lol

[limpid isle]

its nice in that it felt better knowing you are still getting healed, vs vial now its on CD. BUT it is a dps loss to press it yes.

[mighty pivot]

it was like 3-4% max hp each 3s

[frail veldt]

oh thats kinda low

[mighty pivot]

which is way more than what we have now but cost a finisher

[limpid isle]

but it lasted for 30 secs thats why it was good sorta

its just long healing vs instant

[cinder relic]

the game was very different back then

[frail veldt]

interesting

[cinder relic]

A heal like that was fairly premium

[limpid isle]

it was pretty tough in PvP

[frail veldt]

Ive heard things baout "burst of speed"

that sound insane

[limpid isle]

dont remind me

[cinder relic]

It was kinda whatever in raid. u'd guys would have argued the same thing you do about feint. "Why does it cost energy when every other class gets it for free"

But it was very broken

[limpid isle]

i still like shadowstep more but Burst of Speed was great for getting where you need to go in CMs or getting to the other side of the arena in raids etc

[frail veldt]

what is CM

[limpid isle]

challenge modes

[frail veldt]

aaaaaaaah

[cinder relic]

m+ before m+

[limpid isle]

pre mythic+ system blah blah

[frail veldt]

yeah I know of it just never saw it abbreviated

[limpid isle]

basically free loot. outside of the current MoPC Plat times they introduced. golds are like a cake walk

[frail veldt]

yeah I have a buddy whos still living off the gold he made from selling challenge mode carries

cuz they were able to 4 man them eventually

[limpid isle]

oh yeah

tank vengance carries a good healer makes even more of the diff

[jolly geyser]

I remember doing the gold challenges,good fun

[limpid isle]

https://klipy.com/gifs/the-flash-barry-allen-39

basically doing this in dungeons

[jolly geyser]

think we did them in 1 day+ some hr idk

[limpid isle]

pull 5 packs into the boss, blow the boss up in 50 secs hold down W to the next boss

[fathom bramble]

when they first added vial it was just the same total healing as recup, but at no cost and in 6 seconds instead of 30

but people still didn't like vial for some reason

[limpid isle]

cause of the CD. old recup meant you had control over when you wanted healing, if vial is on CD you have no control.

the cost of old healing was just dps loss

[fathom bramble]

vial healed the same amount over a shorter time period, it was literally more control over when you got the healing

recup was healing you over next 5-10 business days

[limpid isle]

but it was still healing. even if you took dam. if you take dam after vial you wait 2 business days to use it again

its same same but different but still same

just personal pref to the player

[fathom bramble]

upfront healing is virtually always better

[civic meadow]

Burst healing is way better in the current wow either way

ya

[fathom bramble]

vial would be even better if it was just instant

[limpid isle]

if it was better people would like vial but its still meh even

[limpid isle]

agreed

[civic meadow]

i like vial

[jolly geyser]

vial instant and lower cd but the longer you wait the more it heals

[limpid isle]

a ramping system? 🤔 keep cooking i like the taste

[fathom bramble]

I also like vial, and felt it was a great improvement over recup at the time

[civic meadow]

Like shieluns for mw

[fathom bramble]

same healing every 30 seconds, but you can actually use it to react to damage

[civic meadow]

Completely agree

[fathom bramble]

instead of very slowly recovering idk

people can prefer whatever, but there's no way recup was actually better

[civic meadow]

Honestly wanted them to add more stuff to it for the longest time but doesn’t really look like that’ll be happening

[jolly geyser]

maybe if you pillar humped in arena

[limpid isle]

should compare healing logs of old recup vs vial (dont im joking)

[jolly geyser]

like all but

[fathom bramble]

the only thing recup had going for it was that in some points in time you kept it up for energy

so it was kind of passive healing at no cost

I honestly don't remember how long that lasted though

it was definitely gone when major glyphs were removed from the game though

[limpid isle]

yeah

[jolly geyser]

wod?

[civic meadow]

Recup was like 12 seconds or something

maybe a bit longer idk

[jolly geyser]

I dont wanna google it lol

[fathom bramble]

recup was 30 seconds

6 per combo point

[wintry solar]

Good ol recup

[civic meadow]

30 seconds

Jesus

[limpid isle]

could keep it up entire fight if you wanted. not really worth the dps loss though.

[glass mortar]

Recup was more healing then live vial tho right

Esp with its glyphs

[wintry solar]

Yeah it was a lot

[glass mortar]

I think initial vial was better

[limpid isle]

if glyphed iirc

[glass mortar]

It had two glyphs

[fathom bramble]

yeah the energy thing was apparently only cata

[glass mortar]

One that made u take increased healing during it and one that increased its healing by like 50%

[fathom bramble]

(I think)

[limpid isle]

yes it died in MoP

[fathom bramble]

mists had glyphs to make it stronger

and it was junk in wod

and then legion improved it into vial

and now vial has actually been nerfed since then

[glass mortar]

Vial should have 2 charges

[jolly geyser]

vials nerf irks me

[glass mortar]

Seriously tho vial could use some buffs

[limpid isle]

why google just log into your MoPC rogue

[wintry solar]

Vial should actually heal

[glass mortar]

Theyve taken so much away

[limpid isle]

2 glyphs

[glass mortar]

Mop rogue was actually unhinged

Tankiness wise

[fathom bramble]

vial should have more support in our class tree

[limpid isle]

still is Sub wants to off themselves cause bosses keep turning

[fathom bramble]

instead of making us take shit like 3% agility

[limpid isle]

yall member shadow walk?

[glass mortar]

Lock gets so many upgrades to their personal rocks

[fathom bramble]

you notice how they added new talents that are must haves to match the number of new points we got in the class tree?

[glass mortar]

In the spec tree

[quick ridge]

Surely vial should just get us drunk as outlaw rogues

[jolly geyser]

didnt use it a lot, but good when its there. I was sin most of mop

[limpid isle]

this was also pretty gas in the correct scenarios

[glass mortar]

Vials duration should be extended everytime you take damage during it, up to a max of double or something

[jolly geyser]

that in early midnight delves

[fathom bramble]

"Taking damage while crimson vial is active will consume healing to absorb up to 50% of incoming damage."

[glass mortar]

Would buff it vs our worst damage type

[limpid isle]

I would pay to have either MfD or Anticipation back in retail. feel good buttons, probably would never happen. but they feel good for their respective uses.

[fathom bramble]

MFD was very comfy especially for open world stuff

[glass mortar]

That single glyph makes leveling rogue in classic mop less painful then live even

[jolly geyser]

mfd is fucking great for lvling

[fathom bramble]

I feel like right now we have almost no open world/leveling tools

[glass mortar]

Just run around clearing every quest in the area with perma snd and recup

[limpid isle]

https://tenor.com/view/coincidence-i-think-not-coincidence-i-think-not-the-incredibles-gif-5096707

[fathom bramble]

we just have movement speed ig

mop and wod had great rogue leveling that's for sure

I feel like we never really recovered from what the level squish did to rogue leveling

[limpid isle]

see even rogue off tank was a thing of the past

[jolly geyser]

wod was great lvling if you were fast enough to escape garrison fiesta dcs

[fathom bramble]

I meant like leveling from 1 to max

max to new max is mostly always fine

and now we have even more energy econ in later levels so leveling 1 to max in midnight isn't looking too great

[limpid isle]

yeah rogue leveling in MoPC vs Retail is day an night diff

MoPC is like tip toe through the window vibes.

[civic meadow]

Rogue leveling in retail is probably one of the worst classes to level

you dont get any damage till like level 20+

[limpid isle]

you dont get evasion till even later

[civic meadow]

[fathom bramble]

don't even get uhuh to chain AR into new mobs anymore

[jolly geyser]

[limpid isle]

Uhuh didnt need to die. I liked the uhuh gameplay.

[fathom bramble]

uhuh should have stayed as stealth only

subterfuge is what they should have targetted

instead somehow every good part of vanish/stealth is gone and subterfuge remains in the tree as a talent we will never take

[limpid isle]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1365060128709283951/1468074415622459576/image0.gif

[fathom bramble]

like just having subterfuge in the class tree when they explicitly stated that they don't want sin/law vanishing for dps is crazy

and probably simply unfinished

[wintry solar]

Just law

[limpid isle]

yeah its kinda funny cause in MoPC im still vanishing and ambushing during red windows cause its a fun min max, totally optional on the players end. so them taking away the vanish stuff kinda hurts in retail

[wintry solar]

They tried to make vanish not useless for assa (but naturally they failed)

[jolly geyser]

vanish resetting stuff in delves is quite a pickle

[limpid isle]

it can be yeah

[jolly geyser]

but sometimes you need it for real in the world

[limpid isle]

but thats why we have bran to tricks and he promptly kites the mobs off the map in the water delves, before they drained them, cause no one like water levels in video games

[jolly geyser]

our companion in Midnight is Valeera Sanguinar, surely no rogue bugs on her

[limpid isle]

shhhh

hopefully she doesnt have as many annoying quotes as bran, I didnt play much beta I like deep diving when stuffs live personally

she gonna tank all the things for me when I tricks her

[jolly geyser]

I would imagine is the same comms,maybe shorter sentences

[limpid isle]

yeah rogues barely talk as is

some mutes around lurking in the shadows

[hearty stump]

Blizzard please make grapple hook faster, it doesn’t need to be as fast as before (even though I’d like that) but wow it hurts every time I use that ability thinking about what it used to be

This is asstastic

[limpid isle]

dont you just feel like george of the jungle swinging by when you grapple now?

[hearty stump]

Dude for real

[jolly geyser]

watchout for that tree

[hearty stump]

I can take a drink of water during the travel time I stg

[civic meadow]

They changed grapple?

jesusss

[limpid isle]

https://tenor.com/view/meme-anime-gif-22734101

[fathom bramble]

they deleted the talent that made grapple faster

and replaced it with just - grapple CD

[civic meadow]

unreal

[limpid isle]

outlaw has to much mobiles and we cant have that when the new mobile spec just arrived

[fathom bramble]

it's also competing with other things so you probably don't even take the -cd anyway

[civic meadow]

I cant wait for it to not be #1 dps week one so we get that fat aura buff and all of a sudden its just giga meta cuz its the new hotness

[cunning swan]

then you wake up

[fathom bramble]

in aoe the start of the tree looks like this
you can't take 15% movespeed/5% stamina node or the grappl cd/blind cd node

you have to drop something that gives dps for either utility choice node

on ST you get 1 extra point to put on 1 of the utility choice nodes

[hearty stump]

You can’t take EITHER of the nodes in m+?? Where utility matters so much more? Jesus Christ blizzard

[tender wedge]

Outlaw tree is kinda cooked yeah

[limpid isle]

utility? in m+ pfft

[fathom bramble]

AR really should just be passive and have no node there at all instead

[hearty stump]

I thought the pruning was supposed to make class fantasy stronger lmaooo

[fathom bramble]

autolearn at level 20 or something

[wintry solar]

I'm already over fast grapple

Really ain't that big a deal

[limpid isle]

personally I dont like how the talent tree are this illusion. like i know it wont happen but a build without AR? isnt the point of talents supposed to like you choose them. AR is a base to outlaw, so why it in tree? hrmmmm

[hearty stump]

Happy to hear that from you, I disagree

[wintry solar]

You're not though

[fathom bramble]

in order to have a talent point every level they have to include talents you are more or less forced to take

it's a consequence of the system that cannot be avoided

[cinder relic]

The point of talents is to provide stuff every level, and onboard people into the specs base systems

[tender wedge]

I think there’s a happy medium between what we have now with a bunch of “must take” nodes and what we had in mop

[cinder relic]

Nowhere was it ever the intention of talents to be "You can play any combo of talents you want"

even back in DF, they said, "You are able to make terrible builds if you want"

[limpid isle]

yeah I guess so just feels gross

[fathom bramble]

some specs don't even have a choice at their first gate

you just spend every point and get every node before the gate opens

marks and surv are both like that

[hearty stump]

I mean that’s great that you don’t mind the nerf and don’t think it’s a big deal, for me it was a big part of the spec that I enjoyed and it’s a big deal to me and many others

To each their own for sure

[fathom bramble]

the grapple nerf is weird since it still leaves as one of the most mobile classes in the game

but it still feels really bad to interact with a movement skill that is on a delay like this

after a few years of fast grapple

[hearty stump]

If we never had fast grapple obviously I wouldn’t feel this way

[limpid isle]

tbf the new talent tree is more of an actual tree. vs old talent "tree"

[hearty stump]

Maybe if it wasn’t nerfed to be THIS slow it wouldn’t be that bad

[fathom bramble]

it's worth noting that this is just the original speed of the ability

[wintry solar]

I wonder if it's still possible to change the background of our talent trees

[fathom bramble]

the nerf was definitely just unnecessary random and strange though

[limpid isle]

maybe I never tried on my classic era rogue tbf

[wintry solar]

I mean in retail

[limpid isle]

oooo

[fathom bramble]

not that you would be able to take fast grapple in a M+ talent set if it was stil there though

[wintry solar]

Classic idk

I've never heard of people changing it in classic

[limpid isle]

classic era rogue UI. Simple an Clean is the way that you are making me feeeeeel tonight.

energy ticks good times

[hearty stump]

Apparently it was a PvP thing, outlaw rogues could apparently cross warsong gulch insanely fast with the flag (according to some forum post)
Love when PvP affects PvE, insanely good game design

[wintry solar]

Lol yeah

[limpid isle]

i mean thats what happens when fatebound has 4 grapples LMAO

not the speed

[wintry solar]

In like 6 seconds

[fathom bramble]

you can still quad grapple though

and cross in like 6 seconds instead of 4

maybe it's the reason for the nerf, but it seems flimsy to me

[limpid isle]

just glider across duh

[wintry solar]

Pve is why outlaw lost evasion cdr when it was originally a pvp talent

Add that to the list of countless reasons pve fucks over pvp

[fathom bramble]

I mean to be fair we have no idea why we lost evasion cdr

it might've even been because of PvP

there is no dev note to tell us why

it is just randomly gone

[wintry solar]

I'm waging pve

[cinder relic]

My money is just on the fact that every class got their really OP defensive toolkits gutten, so they also nerfed Outlaws

[craggy barn]

nerf outlaw rogue for crossing WSG in 20 seconds when evokers can do it in 5 and never be stunned

[fathom bramble]

they nerfed it significantly because of pvp and then removed it so idk

[wintry solar]

Remember MW would fly above the map?

[wintry solar]

TB was nerfed in pvp too

Thought that was funny

[fathom bramble]

a lot of classes losing defensives was just blizzard trying to reduce the number of buttons you have to press

[cinder relic]

maybe? \

[fathom bramble]

they left a lot of specs very tanky that get that tankiness through something that isn't an active

I feel that if it was intended to be a gamewide dps defense reduction some specs would have gotten hit harder

[cinder relic]

Which specs barely got touched

[wintry solar]

My death strike didn't heal me to full yesterday, it's so over.

[cinder relic]

cuz ik mage got executed defensively

[limpid grotto]

Honestly a huge reason to play Rogue is that you have crazy defensive layers personally

[clever badge]

how outlaw looking going into midnight? still playing piano and pray to rng gods or its more stable?

[limpid grotto]

Hard to give that up in mythic

[fathom bramble]

mage is the only one that really got executed

[limpid grotto]

Enhance Shaman is also very squishy

[cinder relic]

thats always been an enhance feature

[limpid isle]

if the piano is one of those kids toys, sure.

[limpid grotto]

Feral cat pretty squishy but perhaps an issue with armor when shifted

[fathom bramble]

I don't think dh even got touched

[limpid grotto]

Dh lost some minor stuff

So much regen still tho

[jolly geyser]

I miss gliders in dungeons&raids. Just for solo purpose

[cinder relic]

Every other expac they just nerf DH leech by like, 5% or smthing

[fathom bramble]

like when you go down the line I'm not sure any other melee even got nerfed defensively in any meaningful way

unless someone has a specific example I'm skipping over

[quick ridge]

Is it possible they're just removing this stuff so they can add it back overtime and call it features when it's just more "unpruning"?

[gaunt phoenix]

compared to other specs, could say outlaw is still piano, just not as much as last xpac

our "RNG that affects gameplay" is fairly improved cause Opportunity proc chance is so high

right now we are kind of chugging haste so at the start of the xpac level 90 where we dont have gear it's probably gonna feel a bit weird

[wintry solar]

Yeah

[cinder relic]

I think thats just a too cynical look at the whole situation but ur free to feel that way

[gaunt phoenix]

it is possible to get stuck with stage 1 RTB and no thistle tea and stall into nothing, though it should be fairly rare

[cinder relic]

Before borrowed power, expansions could just have stupid shit on them and be discarded and it's fine.
But with the shift in DF to "everything is a core feature" systems start stacking on systems on systems, and specs become extremely layered with nuance and nonsense

[quick ridge]

I don't necessarily want that to be cynical, but more in the sense of them trying to keep the game fresh? I didn't mean for it to come across so negatively, apologies if it did.

[wintry solar]

I mean it's not far-fetched to think that they take away to add new stuff later.

Maybe not give back exactly what we lost but something else sure

[cinder relic]

I don't think its that brave of a take to say "They are going to add more to classes in the future"

[mighty pivot]

12.1: somehow UHUH has returned

[clever badge]

thanks for the info

[wintry solar]

You stop that right now

[fathom bramble]

I'm hoping this pruning session is a prelude to returning borrowed power to the game post-midnight

at like 3 AM or whatever the next expac is called

[wintry solar]

That's literally my tin foil hat theory

[quick ridge]

I would imagine having fewer things on everyone gives them more freedom to add things later, old or new

[wintry solar]

The Last Titan

[limpid isle]

rogues should get fangs of the father 2.0 and history will have fully repeated itself.

[cinder relic]

Stuff like AP, or even borrowed power likely never comes back to the game because these terms are just mega tainted

and if they ever add any type of AP, or "System that is focused on this expac only" is just going to be endlessly shit on by a lot of youtubers

[fathom bramble]

I think there is room in the community for legendaries to make a return in ways that are less obstructive to obtain

[cinder relic]

Well I mean look at TWW outlaw for example

Genuinely, lets imagine a different world where midnight isn't a pruning expac

[limpid isle]

long as its not like legion leggos chills

[cinder relic]

What do you add to the spec

[fathom bramble]

2 charges of AR

[wintry solar]

Zzz

[cinder relic]

IT had 95%+ ar uptime
It has 4+ buffs active almost all the time
it has unlimited energy, combo points, everything

a 3rd charge of vanish? 2nd charge on every normal spell

[mighty pivot]

dreadblades for popo

[wintry solar]

Yayy

Only me though

[mighty pivot]

only

[limpid isle]

2 charges of AR but no Uhuh 🤔

[wintry solar]

(No one else would take it)

[quick ridge]

Honestly it’s hard to add much from where the game was. Especially for complicated specs. I don’t blame them for doing it, by any means.

[wintry solar]

I'm glad they did it but the drop off from TWW to Prepatch is pretty jarring

[cunning swan]

warrior dps specs got buffed if anything right

def stance going crazy

[wintry solar]

I still like it though

[cinder relic]

I was saying it at the start of TWW when playing alts but too many specs had too much silly stuff in it. So while midnight pruning might be a bit too far where I'd want it ideally, I wanted this type of patch to happen for awhile now

[wintry solar]

Yeah

It's soothing in a way

To know that there's room for iteration now

[mighty pivot]

popo used the I word

[quick ridge]

My earlier statement was too harsh, I honestly agree. I’d hope they re-add things overtime, just to give more nuance to things, but I look forward to seeing what they’ll do, regardless 😁

[limpid isle]

bring back old ghostly strike. im talking the OLD one. 125% weap damage + 15% dodge. on a 20sec CD that will surely help us defensively right fellars.

[wintry solar]

[fathom bramble]

are mage and outlaw the only 2 examples of losing a ton of defensives?

I must be missing something

[cinder relic]

I mean lol be as hard as u want. I'm not here to tell you not to feel a certain way

[wintry solar]

I'll take the hit if it means mage is worse off

[fathom bramble]

looking at other melee they are nearly the same or maybe got tankier

[cinder relic]

Paladin lost SOV iirc, it's just baked into DP now

[quick ridge]

No! 🫂

[keen belfry]

what if season 1 is a banger guys

is there any chance

[fathom bramble]

yeah that's one of the specs I kind of marked mentally as losing a small amount

[cunning swan]

its hard to say how bursty the content will be. the specs that leech a considerable amount are buffed if one shots are less of a thing

[fathom bramble]

since it's the sameish total defensives just more narrow usage

[cunning swan]

even if the absolute number of leech got nerfed

[wintry solar]

You manifesting buffs or something?

[keen belfry]

trying

[wintry solar]

Gl with that

[cinder relic]

QWell you can't cycle between them now

I'd say its a pretty big deal tbqh

[mighty pivot]

outlaw dev is already done for midnight though

[west ridge]

its basically the third time we've been in this cycle, idk why people are surprised lol

[keen belfry]

but he didnt even start

[west ridge]

yuo cant keep adding stuff to classes forever

[wintry solar]

You forgot the BF nerf in S3

[west ridge]

blizz figured this out in mop, pruned in wod, pruned again in legion and now they are pruning again

this was the tradeoff of getting rid of borrwed power

[wintry solar]

Same reactions everytime too

[west ridge]

yep

[mighty pivot]

they did that in beta already to not have to touch that yucky spec during the expansion's course

[wintry solar]

Oh truke

[cinder relic]

I'd also say @fathom bramble objectively speaking, float, in a vacuum was an absurd talent

[wintry solar]

Should've stayed a pvp talent fr

[cinder relic]

Like, you could argue, and u'd probably be correct, that it was balanced in the context of that Outlaw sucked so it can just have this really broken defnesive talent

But like, on it's own, it's just 100% feint uptime, if you wanted it, and evasion with elusiveness also had insane uptime

[fathom bramble]

I do think this is the actual reason it was removed

not a gamewide change

just a simple effort to make outlaw no longer the tankiest rogue spec

[mighty pivot]

float would struggle anyway with the new energy economy

[fathom bramble]

we have just barely enough energy for the rotation now

[civic meadow]

i also think cdr is something they are actively trying to remove from the game, so it kinda makes sense float went

[fathom bramble]

float would definitely have been effectively nerfed regardless

it's just they got rid of it without adding a new defensive in its place

and took away our 5% damage reduction as well

[limpid isle]

the day restless blades is gone, its gg

[mighty pivot]

we got that rngesus DR in class tree

[fathom bramble]

any motivation other than just reducing our DR would have led them to replacing it with something else

also very small sidenote, now that pistol shot doesn't apply 5% dr it doesn't apply to damage immune targets that are also slow immune

so you cannot generate combo points on them

more of a funfact than anything else

[glass mortar]

Thankfully they rarely do damage immunity in serious bosses anymore

Its always 99% dr or stuff like that

[fathom bramble]

yeah I forgot what content I was even doing when I noticed it

some dungeon idk

SS also behaves kind of strangely on immune targets now too

first hit gives combo points, but the 2nd one does not

presumably because they moved the combo point to the damaging hit

and the 2nd hit dealing no damage breaks it somehow

[leaden sonnet]

They touched most classes a bit. DKs for example lost ~10% stamina and their 15% dr on lichborne, WW lost diffuse, havoc lost netherwalk (i remembered it being tied to blur but couldnt find anything about it so i might be hallucinating?), enhance lost their bulwark totem

Quite a bit of classes lost stuff

[fathom bramble]

"(i remembered it being tied to blur but couldnt find anything about it so i might be hallucinating?)"
they scrapped this since it was definitely going to be insanely op

instead blur is just extra strong now

[civic meadow]

part of diffuse is tied into fort brew now tho tbf

[leaden sonnet]

Ic

[old gull]

anyone got a fake WA to display rtb and bladeflurry in an easier to see spot?

[fathom bramble]

thanks for the extra examples I was missing

kind of sounds like DK lost a meaningful amount

10% stam is pretty significant

[leaden sonnet]

I double checked its actually 8%, 20 > 12%

[leaden sonnet]

I mean yeah the revert magic thing, but the -50% damage button is gone

[fathom bramble]

yeah their template seems to be to merge or remove defensives

like how DH almost got netherwalk merged

paladin got merged

[leaden sonnet]

Which makes sense with their goal of simplifying stuff

Which is why i find evasion staying around a bit strange

[fathom bramble]

I find it odd that they moved it deeper in the tree, but to a spot where we have to take it

you can't even drop it in content where it isn't effective

[leaden sonnet]

ye

[jolly geyser]

maybe we can evasion xala toes in the fight

[leaden sonnet]

I know evasion is iconic and all that, but in terms of unnecessary fluff defensives it surely has to be one of the most egregious examples there is

[jolly geyser]

should give something else

[civic meadow]

yeah it’s definitely up there

[fathom bramble]

it could keep the 100% dodge and gain something that makes it more reliably useful

like what if this was changed

and read "chance is increased to x% during evasion"

or something

[leaden sonnet]

And then you swap the position of danger sense and atrophic in the tree

[jolly geyser]

is evasion on restless, real rogue here

[leaden sonnet]

Boom suddenly it makes sense

[fathom bramble]

alternatively nerf elusiveness slightly and put it where Virulent poisons is or something

so we can take it in situations where cheat is too good to not have

suddenly evasion is always a real button

[leaden sonnet]

Or they just combine feint and evasion, give us dodge while feint is up

Would be very strange

[jolly geyser]

"Rogue cover"

[frail veldt]

am I crazy or did hunter somehow dodge almost all the defensive pruning

[fathom bramble]

Not like hunters had much to prune/merge

[civic meadow]

Dont they have 2 active defensives and thats like it

Turtle/survival instincts or whatever its called

[frail veldt]

I feel like they got a lot in tww right?

dont they still have exhil, two charges of wall, turtle, feign, and pet shield

[fathom bramble]

True actually

I’m living in the past

[civic meadow]

Same ig

i was not aware of all that rofl

[haughty wigeon]

they got a fair bit ya

they had some stuff pruned

like the defensive pet active button

[frail veldt]

hunter lookin pretty tanky then haha

[lethal oak]

Hunter mains confirmed

[wintry solar]

They need to learn to press them then, they keep falling over.

Midnight gonna be such a vibe icw

[covert kestrel]

The vibe:

[glass mortar]

Hunter is very tanky idk

Survival at least

And they went into midnight net tankier even

[wintry solar]

Gonna play on a laptop in the living room with the TV on in the background

Cozy maxxing

[limpid isle]

you gaming on that laptop with the trackpad or wireless mouse? 🤔

[glass mortar]

it was a 20% max hp 20% heal and it got more then replaced by the spec tree pet wall talent

now u can order ur pet to give u or someone else DR

hella glow up tbh

[fathom bramble]

why does like every class have a max hp talent now 🤔

[glass mortar]

who cares we have one anyway

oh do u mean that ur allowed to take

[fathom bramble]

only WW, mage, and rogue(non-law) lack one

[cunning swan]

easy way to fill talent tree

[glass mortar]

warriors also maintained most of their tankiness i think they looked to be one of the tankier melee in midnight

[fathom bramble]

warrior must be getting pretty wide with 10% stamina and 2 two-handers

[gaunt phoenix]

[wintry solar]

Wireless

[limpid isle]

good I was worried you were gonna say trackpad

[haughty wigeon]

[glass mortar]

so hunter has 5% aoe dr, 10% max hp, exhilaration on a 1m cd, 2 charge 1.5m cd 30% wall, turtle immunity (2.5m? 2.25 m now?) cd, and choice between 3% flat dr at all times or another 2m 15% wall their pet casts on them (can also be used on allies)

[haughty wigeon]

forgot about that

[glass mortar]

yup

hunter is at minimum as tanky as it was but imo its tankier

roar of sac glowup is real

[haughty wigeon]

juuuust like mage

crazy

[glass mortar]

survival has a flat 6% dr on top of that as well, and then they have their hero talents

where PL is pretty trash, sentinal is alright, dark ranger is the most broken hero talent defensive in the game

[fathom bramble]

extra 10% on your wall can't be that bad

[glass mortar]

which one is that

[fathom bramble]

packleader

they changed shell cover

[glass mortar]

wait they even improved PL

yea its all jover hunter is tanky af

in tww that PL talent was "attacks that knock you under 50% hp reduce damage taken by 10% for 8 seconds"

on a 2m cd

absolute dog

[fathom bramble]

looking around I think our passive tankiness might be on the low end especially for melee

[glass mortar]

this ones alright tho

[fathom bramble]

and our active tankiness doesn't work on certain damage types

a bit scary if anything we can't feint/cloak comes up

[glass mortar]

yup

this is the most unhinged thing they ever made in a hero tree i swear

[lime lake]

and for half the season it actually increased the damage you took instead of reduced

[glass mortar]

"oh yea ur 1m cd self heal is now also a wall"

"you have 3 walls, 2 of them are on a charge system and the third cools down seperatly from then"

[fathom bramble]

so they can just wall any instance of damage they want

interesting

[glass mortar]

with pet wall they basically have 4 walls and a turtle

dark ranger hunters anyway

[fathom bramble]

that's a scary amount of DR if you just hit them all at once lol

approaching surviving things that are meant to always oneshot

[lime lake]

well most wont stack

[glass mortar]

nah u can only stack the pet wall and normal wall

[lime lake]

just sotf and the pet one

[glass mortar]

since 3 of them are the same (survival of the fittest)

but i mean... if ur trying to live something ur not intended to

[fathom bramble]

I meant pet wall, normal wall, and turtle

[glass mortar]

they do have a hard immunity

oh yea

[fathom bramble]

turtle doesn't always block things though

you know

[glass mortar]

if its something that pierces turtle turtle also gives 20% more dr now

[fathom bramble]

so you just get the DR on it

[glass mortar]

so 50% dr on turle if u specced for more DR on it

plus 30% wall plus 15% pet wall

not additive for those last two of course but

yea thats pretty gud

[fathom bramble]

83% total DR if packleader 🤔

idk if there will be a reason to hit all these at once ever, but that is a pretty high number

[lime lake]

thats still less than dispersion

[fathom bramble]

true

[lime lake]

so not really out there defensive wise

[glass mortar]

how did hunters manage to net tankiness but they removed half of evokers defensives and one of shamans

lol

[lime lake]

but hunter is definitely in a very good spot

[fathom bramble]

or is it

[glass mortar]

i swear its like some of the devs just choose not to follow the rules the class design team has set

and then it doesnt matter

[lime lake]

actually dispersion is 75%

[fathom bramble]

looks like dispersion is only 75% unless I'm missing a modifier

[lime lake]

so i did straight up lie

[glass mortar]

it was 90% for most of its existence

we can forgive you

or i can anyway

[frail veldt]

Disperse is only 75% though

[fathom bramble]

idk I thought it was 90% too

[lime lake]

ok so im not entirely crazy

[lime lake]

read faster

[frail veldt]

My b

It's been 75 for a long time

[lime lake]

it also heals for 25% hp

[frail veldt]

Lul

Yeah huge

[lime lake]

well the point being

[frail veldt]

You also can't fucking press buttons

[lime lake]

thats not far off of hunter pressing literally everything

and they cant press buttons in turtle either

[glass mortar]

i mean if ur in a situation where you need 80% dr to survive something thats also piercing immunities

[frail veldt]

But yeah disperse is fine but not great

[glass mortar]

you are looking at maybe a couple guys in the entire game who can live

so id say thats pretty worth the cost

[fathom bramble]

it's 99% chance a situation where you are trying to cheese something

[glass mortar]

of using ur whole defensive kit

[fathom bramble]

unlikely to ever matter

[glass mortar]

monk also got squishier

all my guys got squishier except hunter

🥹

[quaint mauve]

make crimson vial give dr

https://tenor.com/view/meisho-doto-umamusume-scratch-butt-scratching-gif-2993082032225703231

[glass mortar]

make crimson vial

u can put anything after that

just make it please

[lime lake]

make crimson vial a damage cd

[glass mortar]

!!!

[lime lake]

[quaint mauve]

thatd be cool

like uhhh

[lime lake]

when you press crimson vial you get unseen blade

that would be sick

imagine something like that

[quaint mauve]

nah make it a molotov

[glass mortar]

how do you know that isnt already happening on live tho

you wouldnt be able to tell

its unseen

[fathom bramble]

Damage taken while crimson vial is active now consumes some remaining healing to reduce damage taken by up to 50%.

[glass mortar]

😎

[fathom bramble]

if damage would reduce you below 60% life while crimson vial is active then consume all remaining healing immediately

[glass mortar]

shame mw already has the fully realized crimson vial as a 1 off talent in their tree

[strange kelp]

Technically higher for BM if they run stam pet

[glass mortar]

look at this thing

this is literally just "hey look guys we made crimson vial but its good, imagine if you had that"

[fathom bramble]

Crimson vial can now store up to 3 charges, Recieving overhealing generates additional crimson vials at 25% effectiveness.

[covert kestrel]

new prof pic poggies

[fathom bramble]

Damage that would reduce you below 35% life immediately fully consumes a crimson vial charge if available. This effect can not occur more often than once every 60 seconds,

[glass mortar]

id love some more crimson vial stuffanyway

button feels bad to press still

i dont mind them moving our passivetankiness into active button pressing

shame they didnt do that

[fathom bramble]

casting evasion, cloak, or vanish triggers a free Crimson Vial.

[glass mortar]

they just removed it

[random stirrup]

does it really stack like this tho/

[glass mortar]

he did it multiplicatively i believe

if it was additive it woulda been 95% dr

[fathom bramble]

actually maybe that is wrong

[glass mortar]

50% 15% and 30% (40% for pl)

[fathom bramble]

it's all multiplicative of course but running it again I don't get 83% 🤔

I seem to have mathed it wrong the first time

idk its 74.5% not 83%

for those 3 things as packleader

[lime lake]

which makes me right by technicality

[glass mortar]

so shadow is still supreme good to know

[fathom bramble]

wow it is less than dispersion

[glass mortar]

🫡

[lime lake]

even when im wrong im right

[fathom bramble]

also on top of everything we just went through hunter is one of the classes with a 10% life talent

I also noticed that some classes have x% stamina and some have x% health

when those are the same thing in 99.9% of cases

[lime lake]

hunter is definitely the big winner for defensives in midnight

[strange kelp]

It's probably not far off when hunter has the option for like a passive 6% DR

Surv technically has like 9-12% passive

[glass mortar]

warriors new stance mastery looks pretty sick as well

passive 15% dr in D stance (at the cost of ~15% dps i imagine for the time ur in it) and damage reduced further on any hits larger then 20% of ur max hp by 15%

[hasty warren]

hi pirates

[fathom bramble]

so we have 5% passive(physical), feint(40% aoe), 20% for 20%(4% avg), 30% for 10%(3% avg), cloak, and cheat

or you can lose cheat death to gain something that is probably worse than d stance by spamming feint

20% ST with like 30% uptime and a high energy cost

[glass mortar]

yup

whyd u pick that fatebound defensive over the MASSIVE heal on coins one tho

[fathom bramble]

it feels like if feint doesn't work we might fall over

we don't even reliably have the big hp % talents that every other melee has

almost every other*

poor WW

[glass mortar]

yeup WW lost their big magic wall

and debuff remover

[hasty warren]

this much ?

[fathom bramble]

the 10% magic absorb might be okay, but not great

overhealing to kind of give max life is always nice

but if rot just eats it before you can stack it on a certain fight then it's just useless

[glass mortar]

ye in any fight with ticking damage its basically just 0.33% hp/s "healing"

better then nothing i guess

[fathom bramble]

I know another talent like that

[glass mortar]

yea

[fathom bramble]

I guess it's fine

they just won't make any meaningful damage that goes through feint

[glass mortar]

we pray i guess, not much else we can do

the worst part is leaving feint as our only serious DR when we are so much more reliant on it, and budgeting our energy so we barely have enough for the base rotation to work

so you just gunna get to suffer any fight where u need to actually use feint consitently

at least stuff like D stance just taxes ur damage passively and not by removing your resources

[frail veldt]

The energy of feint is gonna be problematic I think

[granite merlin]

Just had this conversation at length with my guild

[frail veldt]

If you don't pay attention you're gonna be oom and miss a press and die

Then come complain in the discord

[olive spire]

then i am not feinting, healer problem

[frail veldt]

It's gonna be hilarious

[frail veldt]

If you're dead it's a you problem lol

[granite merlin]

It’s going to be even more brutal on assassination when your at the bottom of an energy pool

[frail veldt]

Idk if assa is actually slower at energy recovery than outlaw is outside of adr with no tea left

[craggy barn]

assa energy should be fine with apex

[granite merlin]

Both atm for me are painful when tea is gone

[fathom bramble]

a lot of our energy is from cheap spells and refunds

you aren't exactly getting refunded on energy spent on feint

[glass mortar]

feint should grant energy based on damage taken during it

[granite merlin]

When you burn that third tea and have a min of nothing

[olive spire]

i guess it will feel better in later seasons with more haste, but season 1 looks sus

[craggy barn]

what if feint refunded energy once if it drs something

like 20% refund

[glass mortar]

100% refund

coward

[granite merlin]

Oddly sub was the only spec feint feels fine to me