outlaw

[glass mortar]

ah ok so not as much if u just press to maintain buff/during vanish

[worldly shale]

I mean why would you ignore bte

No reason?

[gaunt phoenix]

!ban @hoary blade spam

[serene cosmos]

https://tenor.com/view/blakegriffin-blake-griffin-bluecollarboys-scaryhours-gif-24615056

@gaunt phoenix when moderation needs to be done

[vivid vessel]

unban my goat right now ..

[gaunt phoenix]

no ..

[keen belfry]

holy sub vault

like my m+ vault?

[opaque ocean]

I currently opted to ignore BtE outside Subterfuge window since then I can use just one button for Dispatch/BtE. Wanted to know how much loss that is to never press BtE outside subterfuge.

[mighty pivot]

no alpha, no easy money. You can't get lucky with anything

@gaunt phoenix back2back

[gaunt phoenix]

what the fuck are people doing

[mighty pivot]

clicking shit

[tight kernel]

Sub and outlaw trinkets finally complete

[vivid vessel]

bro unban my goat ..

[gaunt phoenix]

no ..

guy banned him not me ..

[mighty pivot]

zac bro solo robbed you twice in 20 minutes and you are gonna take it like that?

[long barn]

Is it worth chasing a dagger for OH?

[gaunt phoenix]

currently it doesnt matter

next expansion probably

[glass timber]

So i recently started a mage alt, and found out my sqw was 50, so i set to 400 as default but now i feels wrong to play anything. What should it be for rogue?

[gaunt phoenix]

it's preference

there's not really a 'should'

you do what feels good

it depends on how you mash keys

[glass timber]

Okay, good.
I mash alot but my spells on my mage is inconsistenly gapped, with 50 so i was missing out on gcd and lost dps lol

[gaunt phoenix]

50 is so low it might as well be 0 though

ye

[glass timber]

Yh its hard to find a proper value tbh. When i go on rogue it feels like theres a huge delay when sqw is up the slightest

[unborn haven]

For the ones doing both m+ and mythic raids. Do you have two sets of gear? Or just sim single target and then make some adjustments with trinkets and small stuff like that when changing content?:)

its costing me insane amounts of gold to sim both ds and st and then redo gems 10 times a week x)

[gaunt phoenix]

Our gems dont change

[glass mortar]

y are u redoing gems 10 times a week

[gaunt phoenix]

why would they?

[glass mortar]

ur stats shouldnt change between ST and aoe

trinkets might change, and oh weapon if ur using cudgel

but for gear thats usually it

[gaunt phoenix]

just run this every time

No way a deviation from this is worth more than 0.2% dps unless you don't have haste

[elder phoenix]

its interesting raidbots wants me to have 22% haste

lol

https://i.imgur.com/N6BKomr.jpeg rn this is the stats raidbots says thats top dps for me

[vivid vessel]

Ho?

[elder phoenix]

no

[vivid vessel]

Or you are probably simming bad

[elder phoenix]

kir

[vivid vessel]

Skill issue simming

Or you have no other way to change stats around

Ilvl still better generally

[elder phoenix]

719 ilvl

well actually it wants me to have less vers than 30%

and wants me to have more crit

and also its telling me that non sleight of hand build is 0.1% better than the sleight of hand build lol

[gaunt phoenix]

that's normal, sleight undersims slightly

[glass mortar]

sleight of hand build doesnt outsim any build that im aware of

its just very close and people prefer it regardless cause more 5 buffs

i went a whole 13 priory without a single 5 buff roll natty

scam talent!!!!

[elder phoenix]

i prefer it more too

[glass mortar]

solo scamed me

😠

[elder phoenix]

10% 5 natty LOL

i reset this every week

https://i.imgur.com/u79xU0i.jpeg

i sometimes alternate so its not just i use sleight all the time

the lowest i got was i think 9.6%

[glass mortar]

thats crazy high sheesh

[desert tendon]

you re crazy high sheeeeeesh

[glass mortar]

no u 😠

brann check censi

[desert tendon]

still havent logged in or resub to this trash

to say the least

[glass mortar]

good just making sure 🥰

[desert tendon]

and after seeing midnight alpha

i wont be part of it aswell

[glass mortar]

standing on buisness

yea rn looks like next expac might be a pass from me but im waiting to see

[desert tendon]

i m happy out of MMOs dude

[glass mortar]

always holding out hope

[desert tendon]

well maybe they ll do stuff, but we all know rogue is always forgotten in alpha / beta, and usually get the first set of fixes in .5

[sullen wyvern]

RNGjesus just blessed me on soulbinder heroic

[desert tendon]

well you can argue they also love to nerf outlaw after heroic week

[native tinsel]

did something change lately? i saw more outlaws this week than subs

[glass mortar]

not rlly no

[vivid vessel]

outlaw got worse prolly

[glass mortar]

sub also got worse tho

we arent the only ones who dont scale zac

trying to steal subs valor like that

[sullen wyvern]

how we got worse?

[glass mortar]

[sullen wyvern]

what did they change

[glass mortar]

because the ilvl boost came out

so everyones ilvl is increasing

sub and outlaw have terrible secondaries and dont have broken items to scale up so the ilvl boost wont give as much to them

it wont change very much tho

its only 6 ilvl

[sullen wyvern]

but more agi bro

why are we playing such a meme spec guys

[vivid vessel]

we are one of the worse scaling spec in the game

so

more ilvl we get worse

and

some people will say

scaling is fake

but its not

dont trust people that say that

[glass mortar]

it is and it isnt

[sullen wyvern]

is there another spec with worse scaling?

[vivid vessel]

i dont think so

[glass mortar]

hmm

a dps spec?

[vivid vessel]

we are the only spec that goes vers only

[glass mortar]

i doubt it

sub is probably a close second

[vivid vessel]

even sub goes mastery

[sullen wyvern]

yeah dps who cares about tanks or helaers

[glass mortar]

sure but haste is arguably more useless for sub then it is for us

we can at least scale with like 20% of haste

[vivid vessel]

well ye

but sub can have like

[glass mortar]

same with crit honestly

[vivid vessel]

infinite mastery

[sullen wyvern]

dont get haste as sub then?

[vivid vessel]

!fuu

[ornate heath]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[glass mortar]

idk which scales worse

but i think outlaw prob

[vivid vessel]

even sub crit

is like outlaw crit

[glass mortar]

ya

[vivid vessel]

look what rings this is using

[glass mortar]

i mean u could go 50/50 crit vers split as law like sub goes mast/vers split

[random stirrup]

Sub def scales better than law you have one useless stat vs 2

[glass mortar]

and it would be 99% of the strength of law

but sub can scale harder off broken trinkets imo

[random stirrup]

Ww was around law before their rework I think right

[sullen wyvern]

btw is outlaw mastery being reworked in midnight?

or still teh same dogshit?

[glass mortar]

nothing changed with it yet

[sullen wyvern]

hope they do

[random stirrup]

I don’t think it’s possible for any non energy spec to scale horribly

[vivid vessel]

crit is

gonna be giga

we are a crit spec now

[random stirrup]

Haste being functional is already enough

[glass mortar]

marks used to scale like shit didnt it

stacked vers and crit

[vivid vessel]

like stakcing crit till oblivion

[glass mortar]

idk what they changed about it tho

[sullen wyvern]

how so zac?

[vivid vessel]

we dont have rp anymore

[glass mortar]

they took away a ton of our free crit

[sullen wyvern]

I understood the part taht since bte doesnt gfive crit anymore crit gets more value from gear

[glass mortar]

practically all of it

[vivid vessel]

but we have bte still doing the 4x crit thing

[sullen wyvern]

but what else?

[vivid vessel]

we dont have bte crit 20%

we dont have bte almost garnatee critting while in rp

[glass mortar]

bte also is like 20-30% of ur damage budget on alpha rn

and it does 4X damage on crits

[random stirrup]

Lost 80% free crit on 4x crit damage highest dpet spell

[glass mortar]

so it critting kinda important

[vivid vessel]

we jhave this

[glass mortar]

yea

[sullen wyvern]

oh

Dman thats good

[glass mortar]

thats also gunna make u wear a dagger oh probably

[vivid vessel]

like

[glass mortar]

so enjoy

[vivid vessel]

bte on live

is 90% crit

[glass mortar]

😎

[vivid vessel]

while gearing legit 0 % crit

on alpha

you have

0 crit from buffs and shit

you have to get it from gear

so its gonna be like

infinite scaling idk

[random stirrup]

Trickster hits crit cap for bte on live with 0 crit on gear

[glass mortar]

zac r u ready to have 0% vers when u gotta stack crit to the moon and pay ur haste tax s1

can we make outlaw squishy guys

[vivid vessel]

I mean

outlaw is litteraly

[glass mortar]

delete defensive cdr, remove vers stacking

[vivid vessel]

squishiest spec

[random stirrup]

0% vers no stam no float

[vivid vessel]

in the game

like

[random stirrup]

[vivid vessel]

xd

its pathetic

how these devs

[glass mortar]

no vanish cdr also

[vivid vessel]

manage to make outlaw

worse

every expac

likke

[glass mortar]

so if ur cheesing mechanics ur doing it once every 2 minutes

[vivid vessel]

legitimaly

worse

[glass mortar]

😎

[vivid vessel]

every expac

at some point

2 players

gonna play this spec

[glass mortar]

holy fuk im so excited

no vanish cdr is really tragic ngl

[vivid vessel]

removing everything outlaw is good at

till there is nothing else

then i guess idk

[glass mortar]

soothing darkness also passively just does a ton of healing currently

[vivid vessel]

[glass mortar]

thats basicaly completely gone

talent went from goated to worthless with 1 change

wrong channel anyway

resist the doom

[vivid vessel]

nah but its fine guys

outlwa will be good this time

cause

they fixed our issues

right

[glass mortar]

please keep ur doomspiraling to the midnight channel zac, ty

i already stopped myself

😠

this channel is for dooming about the fact that outlaws place as the worst spec in the game on the mythic stack has been DETHRONED by survival hunters

now we are never getting buffs

[sullen wyvern]

I guess

it makes sense bte doesnt give crit anymore nor we wont have rp

imagine if they leave it as it is with that talent

[vivid vessel]

i mean

they left

bte

doing 4x damage

tho

so

its just rng fiesta

[sullen wyvern]

yeah but imagine if we get all that crit passively

and we still stack vers with that talent

[glass mortar]

thatd basically be the same as live

whats to imagine

[vivid vessel]

how would we stack vers

we will have 0% vers

[glass mortar]

ud just have shit crit scaling and more normalized damage

now we have crit scaling but the variance

and prob drop all ur vers

we r gunna be so squishy man

[vivid vessel]

squishiest rogue spec

shittiest damage profile

[sullen wyvern]

my bad bros im smoothbrained

[vivid vessel]

shittiest utility in the game

no raid buff

holy shmoly macaroni

[sullen wyvern]

3.8% damage reduced

wdym

giga value

3.6*

[glass mortar]

energy is more limiting too so feint is going to feel way more limited i imagine

[vivid vessel]

:)

outlaw gonna feel like shit

[glass mortar]

ugh

[vivid vessel]

litteraly the only thing they fixed

[hybrid crown]

I think I'm going to switch to assa

[vivid vessel]

is listening to the forum dwellers

and removing stealth interactions

[hybrid crown]

The changes look kinda neat

[vivid vessel]

like

ok i guess

nice work

[sullen wyvern]

maybe ill go pvp as outlaw

and play fury pve idk

[patent mirage]

the entire stealth gameplay was kinda iffy

[quaint mauve]

i personally enjoy playing current outlaw

and don’t like how the changes sound

[vivid vessel]

ye for people playing outdoor content

like who cares

[patent mirage]

the adr loop would go eventually

[quaint mauve]

getting omega cucked by blizzard is feels bad

[patent mirage]

the changes are fine

[quaint mauve]

i really enjoy evasion cdr

[vivid vessel]

stop saying that ?

[patent mirage]

ummm no

[vivid vessel]

the only thing that is fine is that the gameplay is mostly just not worse

everything else is striclty worse

[quaint mauve]

[glass mortar]

i mean changes arent bad just because they are changes but theres certainly nothing about alpha outlaw to excite me rn

[vivid vessel]

outlaw is worse in like

[patent mirage]

there we go again

[vivid vessel]

every point

dont say there we go again

prove me wrong

just say im wrong

and tell me why im wrong

[patent mirage]

i would if you would start typing

in

one

sentence

[vivid vessel]

stfu you absolute monkey

and answer

[glass mortar]

im happy we no longer need to keep 100% uptime on adr. i think the cost of the changes to remove that so far make outlaw appear way less enjoyable to play overall so rip

basically same shit as kspree changes

[patent mirage]

you havent been playing outlaw for long have you

[vivid vessel]

why does this even mean

stop avoiding

and answer

bro

[patent mirage]

oh boy

[vivid vessel]

I have played the game long enough to see

how the game evolved

and how every spec in the game got better

while outlaw barely changed

[ripe ibex]

“erm actually back in my day it was called combat and we didn’t use stealth offensively” 🤓

[vivid vessel]

and outlaw just keeps getting worse every expac

and i can pin point to you exactly why

and you still aint telling me

[glass mortar]

i mean the removal of stealth gameplay is whatever

[vivid vessel]

why im wrong

and are just

avoiding

[patent mirage]

if you though it would stay forever you are naive

[vivid vessel]

the subject

[patent mirage]

it was doomed

[vivid vessel]

just answer

instead

of avoiding

and acting

[glass mortar]

its not a good or a bad thing, id say its a net good idea but i dont like the implementation

[vivid vessel]

like you know more

oh boy:

bro a grandpa

that knows everything

juist answer

[patent mirage]

zac i blocked you already piss off dude i dont have to tell you anything

[vivid vessel]

instaed of acting like that

[glass mortar]

we dont just lose stealth gameplay, we lose vanish on cdr as a cheesing tool and defensive tool

[vivid vessel]

ye

cant

no argument

[ripe ibex]

w begging the question bro

[patent mirage]

it was doomed the day realz said it would be gone

get it

[vivid vessel]

nice dodging

[ripe ibex]

crack shot haters would rather outlaw be unplayable than to have to press the stealth button

[glass mortar]

i mean u dont gotta go so extreme

[vivid vessel]

hilarous how bro will act like if knows more and then just refuse to even argument

even a single word

[patent mirage]

it is there but in another form

[glass mortar]

its not unplayable

but its markedly worse

[ripe ibex]

an objectively worse form

[glass mortar]

like did they need to just eliminate a huge portion of our self healing and ability to avoid mechanics to make us not have crackshot?

that just makes outlaw worse to play period

[vivid vessel]

i wasnt even talking about crackshot

i was talking about outlaw in general

you cant say its fine

[glass mortar]

less flexible less survivability

[vivid vessel]

when the spec get worse

[glass mortar]

[vivid vessel]

every tier

"its fine"

[ripe ibex]

less control over damage less prio

[glass mortar]

shouldnt effect prio

[patent mirage]

prio?

[glass mortar]

less control sure

[ripe ibex]

well killing spree change was a pretty massive hit to prio

[glass mortar]

trust me crackshot being gone is almost enough to make new outlaw a no sell for me

sure but thats not related to stealth gameplay

[patent mirage]

they just have to tune the ace talent a bit

with cp returns

[glass mortar]

shoulda been a choice node with crackshot

this perma mini version of it without any control of when it happens

[vivid vessel]

gameplay wise

outlaw will be fine

[glass mortar]

and crackshot shoulda been tied to kspree or something

if they didnt want it on vanish

[vivid vessel]

no one even argued against that

can change gameplay around

[lofty pike]

Choice nodes are never the answer, one of them is Always behind 🙁

[vivid vessel]

its just different

but you make the spec worse

in term of everything else

every expac

[glass mortar]

thats fine

[patent mirage]

if you get nodes you always choose the best

[vivid vessel]

slowly it devolve into nothingness

[glass mortar]

one of our builds is always behind yet we have two builds being played anyway

i mean thats just not true tho?

[lofty pike]

Does anyone really play HO?

[glass mortar]

kir been ahead the entire expac but i bet 90% of logs from this expac are HO

does anyone really play HO

[vivid vessel]

in sl outlaw was the only rogue spec that could do aoe, in df it was the only spec that could do prio, in tww it was the tanky rtogue spec, now its like

[glass mortar]

[vivid vessel]

idk

nothing

you just slowly lost everythign while the other specs got fixed

[glass mortar]

majority of outlaws played it this expac friend

probably for most of the expac too

if ur going off logs

[vivid vessel]

"its fine"

[ripe ibex]

well i think in general they are just removing niches

[lofty pike]

@vivid vessel rage finished?

[ripe ibex]

they really do want everything to be capable of doing the same things

[vivid vessel]

no

making the worse rogue spec worse

isnt fine

if you guys wanna play outlaw

you gotta start

thinking about more

than this

[lofty pike]

Then Tell Blizzard about it, come Up with a concept thats liked by the Community, Just to be ignored in every way thats possible

[vivid vessel]

im only raging cause this fucker

[patent mirage]

and then you wonder why realz doesnt want to show up here anymore

[vivid vessel]

disrepect me

for no reason

[patent mirage]

i wouldnt if i was him

[vivid vessel]

at all

[ripe ibex]

realz alt account

[glass mortar]

zac idk why u pretend to care about outlaw, but u wont even post on the outlaw alpha feedback forums?

even guy has a post up

[vivid vessel]

ye my bad

idk i guess im the only person that care that the spec just becomes less and less viable

every expac

and it seems to not matter ?

like do you guys just not wanna play outlaw

[glass mortar]

ur not the only one who cares

[vivid vessel]

if the spec has nothing going for it

you arent playing it

there is a reason the spec has not been played in race for like ever

and that the spec is at 0% pop rate

and its not just cause stealth xdd

stealth bad

[random stirrup]

I suspect that people saying the removal of niche is fine is because they don’t play at a level where it matters

[vivid vessel]

I mean clearly

this guy

doesnt

prolly a lfr handy

that has been playing the game for 20 years

to answer to me that way

[random stirrup]

This entire season I would’ve been hard trolling if I played outlaw in raid (except soul hunter)

[vivid vessel]

even on soul hunter it was barely better tho

[random stirrup]

Actually insane level grief especially on last 2

[vivid vessel]

like

idk

but tuning

but thats the issue

when you keep removing

things that makes your spec special

at the end you just have to rely on tuning

and you cant always be tuned 20% higher than everyone else

so you are just perma shit

[random stirrup]

and then u go in keys and do negative prio and fight the kitty for overall while up 6 ilvl

very interesting

[glass mortar]

well we r tuned to shit rn and dont have niche

so its a moot argument

[vivid vessel]

no its not

[glass mortar]

better point would be last season or like s3 df where we were tuned probably as high as we will ever be

[random stirrup]

Tuning wouldn’t fix horrible prio

[vivid vessel]

cause we still have a few stuffs

like being tanky

[glass mortar]

and we still didnt see play

[random stirrup]

It is a very large weakness

[vivid vessel]

and shit

if you remove even more

how tf do you expect

the spec

to survive

like idk

[hybrid crown]

Low ADR uptime and UHUH removal really sucks ass I kinda don't wanna play outlaw next season :/

[glass mortar]

the initial blue post about outlaw changes read like they wanna make it the most user accesible rogue spec to me and that requires a high degree of lobotomization

[patent mirage]

remember when they nerfed fth and people were like the sky is falling

[glass mortar]

but i hope i read it wrong and we get more stuff on alpha

[vivid vessel]

is this guy rage baiting

[glass mortar]

its funny u say that cause nobody ur arguing with right now were among the people saying the sky was falling when that happened

zac certainly didnt

[patent mirage]

or how crazy people went when they made it so , when hidden opportunity procs your button changes

[random stirrup]

Also funny when a lot of people hate the current 1fth in keys

[vivid vessel]

ye he is rage baiting

he also has no idea

what we are talking about

so he is both rage baiting

and stupid

i guess

thats kinda crazy

[patent mirage]

the problem is , this guy is like " i disagree with you so im going mad "

[glass mortar]

i mean

outlaw has less of everything on alpha

by quite a bit

slower (movement speed) way less defensives

a complete removal of the even marginal ability to control ur damage profile we had with double vanishes

it gained nothing except ease of access so far

i guess we wait and see

doesnt sound very exciting to me yet

[patent mirage]

exactly

[random stirrup]

Sub gained defensively if it’s still a vers spec fwiw

[vivid vessel]

im going mad cause you are disrespectful?

[glass mortar]

but like, u just said they took a bunch of tools we had away and gave nothing back

[patent mirage]

we are going to wait and see how they tune numbers and adjust talents

[random stirrup]

Good luck playing outlaw!

[glass mortar]

why r u surprised someone like zac is mad

as of now we are net negative from live

[vivid vessel]

im mad cause this guy

[glass mortar]

unless u really really really hate live

[vivid vessel]

is

talking

[glass mortar]

and even then ur net negative

[vivid vessel]

shit

[glass mortar]

the dps rotation might just be more fun

[vivid vessel]

for no reason

bro

[glass mortar]

u still lost all the same stuff we did

[vivid vessel]

why are we changing the story

[patent mirage]

i havent played alpha so i cant know

[gaunt phoenix]

alright boys

[patent mirage]

you know what sounds good though , that unlike other expansions we got some stuff going

[gaunt phoenix]

be civil or drop it, or i will

[patent mirage]

unlike times we got barely a line

[glass mortar]

id have prefered no changes to whats on alpha rn

but i'll leave it there

[vivid vessel]

we got less things than most alphas

but ok

which im fine with

[glass mortar]

there is one singular thing im actually excited for on alpha, and its just BRs new animation

[vivid vessel]

since everything change

seems to be going

in the direction of ruining the game

so

cant complain much

[fierce aurora]

question for the M+ enjoyers (trickster), if you get a coup de grace proc right before you need to refresh vanish for AR (so it doesnt fall off, or just unlucky timing right before a vanish), is it better to sit on the coup de grace and spam crackshot, or coup de grace first during the subterfuge window for the flawless form stacks before going to bte spam?

[sullen wyvern]

Honestly they could've leave UHUH gameplay maybe, idk

I dont like to stress too much on alphas, I stress on betas

[gaunt phoenix]

you can coup and then immediately vanish during coup

[sullen wyvern]

if not it is what it is, ill play something else

[gaunt phoenix]

it's fine

[fierce aurora]

i mean more like if you vanish and then immediately get a proc, so youre already in subterfuge when it procs. cause my other concern is wasting the potential ambush hidden blade stacks

[sullen wyvern]

I think in that scenario you just keep crackshot prio over CdG

and cry about how unlucky yo uare

cuz it happens

[fierce aurora]

lmao

[gaunt phoenix]

just hold it, but iirc if you have guaranteed UB then pressing coup is still fine

[fierce aurora]

ok cool i wasnt sure if the flawless form stacks were better for buffing the crackshots

even at the cost of spending the globals/combo points of doing the double CdG

[sullen wyvern]

as far as I remember if that happens we still continue our crackshot prio, right? it has been a while since ive checked FAQ, I usually keep my self updated through pins

[fierce aurora]

yeah it seems like a bit of a niche scenario since its never gonna be optimal, but there are def times where im about to lose AR and i have no choice but to send a vanish (even if i just got a CtG proc)

[sullen wyvern]

what happens to me quite often is getting CdG ready during crackshot cuz I dont get aceprocs / fth to fill combo points and spam sinister strike and tierset kicks in

[random stirrup]

Are you using your 2 guaranteed ubs from kspree before vanishing

[fierce aurora]

im not, should i be?

i mean im guessing the answer is yes lmao

[random stirrup]

Well if you can proc coup before vanish ya

[sullen wyvern]

yeah you should unless AR is dropping soon, you use it first

[fierce aurora]

oh i see what you mean

[glass mortar]

yes if you have guarenteed UB you want to consume them before crackshoting if you can to avoid this situation

[fierce aurora]

just get it out of the way and have fresh unseen blades

[random stirrup]

If you press kspree at 3 escalating stacks u def want to ss coup coup build vanish

[fierce aurora]

i also find it kinda awkward fitting killing spree into the rotation, usually if im coasting along im just cycling vanishes and not wanting to lose AR during the channel lol

should i just be sending it on CD generally?

(after opener)

[gaunt phoenix]

you must KS or you lose cooldown reduction on it

but not in stealth

that's all there is to it

[fierce aurora]

i dont hate the new killing spree but between the slow channel, the overcapping combo points, and not being able to kick/CC during it makes it feel a bit clunky in a lot of scenarios so i feel like i sit on it/waste it a lot

i think the overcapping only happens with 7 combo points + supercharger though, so are you guys just sending it with less?

[hybrid crown]

The channel is so fast in remix

[gaunt phoenix]

you can generally cancel it with a finisher when it generates you to 7cp

[hybrid crown]

Its great

[gaunt phoenix]

unless you are down bad on energy

[fierce aurora]

or like it messes with my target priority cause of the randomness (at least old killing spree just worked normally with BF so i could still have a "primary" target take most of it)

[glass mortar]

its pretty important to not sit on it because it does a lot of damage and generates u alot of UB

yes it does reduce ur prio damage by quite a bit

🙂

[fierce aurora]

yeah i def underrate the unseen blades

[glass mortar]

we tried

[fierce aurora]

im just not used to trickster so im kinda bad at prioritizing refreshing those/resetting the ICD

[glass mortar]

its the primary engine of the tree so its important to focus on but yea i get that

UB is kinda annoying to engage with since the game is actively trying to prevent u from tracking it

even our best WA cant perfectly track it

yet u need to play around it to be optimal

[vivid vessel]

at least without crackshot its less of an issue in tww

not that they fixed it of course

[fierce aurora]

yeah like i get how it works, but in my head i always stop at "ambush procs it" and i forget all the nuances about resetting the cooldown

well sinister strike and ambush but you know what i mean

im also learning KIR for the first time, i was a HO andy forever cause i basically just did pvp

and last season for M+ i got carried by my full set of gilded crest crafted gear so i could just zug zug with buffed BF/KS from trickster and not think about anything

but this season i can def feel how much weaker i am not playing optimally lmao

so i learned KIR and im still trying to wrap my head around optimizing summarily dispatched on top of flawless form

lotta moving parts for tiny stacking buffs lol

hence why i forget the nuances of other trickster stuff while im desperately trying to avoid dropping off AR while i stand 10 feet away from a boss for a mechanic for 6 seconds

[gaunt phoenix]

optimizing summarily dispatched on top of flawless form

You don't though

[glass mortar]

u dont play around summarily at all

or flawless form really

[fierce aurora]

ok so you just kinda let them happen?

[glass mortar]

(the natural rotation already plays around the later)

[gaunt phoenix]

nothing about the rotation changes basesd on summarily dispatched or flawless form stacks whether you have 1 or 100

[vivid vessel]

this thing would go crazy as a sword im ngl

[fierce aurora]

gotcha, so you dont ever try to build up summarily dispatched before a crackshot window or anything?

[glass mortar]

nope

[gaunt phoenix]

nope

[fierce aurora]

ok good to know. i can prob get rid of my weakaura that tracks it then lol

flawless form i mostly ignore aside from acknowledging the free stacks you get from CdG

[gaunt phoenix]

I dont track flawless form

[glass mortar]

in the normal gameplay u will find u end up couping right before a vanish most of the time anyway

[vivid vessel]

i dont track it either

[glass mortar]

because you will usually have a charge available as ur trying to dump ur kspree/coup

so the stacks already line up

[vivid vessel]

you just kinda hold vanish for coup and then rouhgly vansh after coup

[gaunt phoenix]

you just try to vanish after the coups

[vivid vessel]

and it works fine

[fierce aurora]

alright this helps a lot thanks gents

sounds like i was overthinking a lot of the buffs and underthinking about unseen blades lmao

[glass mortar]

i will say going into crackshot windows with zero blades readied then proccing a coup mid vanish window because of this tier set gives me trust issues

but thats just the slot machine baby

nothing u can do

[gaunt phoenix]

I will say trickster being the exact same but no more weakaura is lame

[fierce aurora]

oh btw, blade flurry doesnt interact with KS at all anymore right? like the individual random target hits dont cleave?

[gaunt phoenix]

In midnight

[glass mortar]

they do

it fires a ST shot at random targets in front of u

each of those shots flurry

[vivid vessel]

[glass mortar]

so basically the same as any other spell u have but with random targeting for some reason

[fierce aurora]

oh thats wild, i couldve sworn it was different cause of the wording

blade flurry causes your "single target attacks" to also strike etc. etc.

[glass mortar]

yea each ks shot is a single target attack

the only aoe attacks u have are BF initial damage and BR

[vivid vessel]

he means ks shot

[glass mortar]

yea ks shot

[fierce aurora]

yeah each hit, but the ability is technically targeting multiple targets so thats why i wasnt sure. and also, what other aoe abilities do we even have lmao

[glass mortar]

just the two

[fierce aurora]

is it literally just saying that BF doesnt proc itself

[glass mortar]

and one of them we havent used since df

blade rush also

[gaunt phoenix]

Blade rush, we will use it in midnight

[fierce aurora]

i thought blade rush only cleaved with BF active anyway

[gaunt phoenix]

it does more dmg with bf active

[glass mortar]

uh i think it does additional cleave damage or something with bf active?

yea there we go

[fierce aurora]

ah im just misremembering then

[gaunt phoenix]

but it is technically decoupled from bf damage

Which is good

i likestuff like that

[fierce aurora]

did they buff the range beyond 20y lol

[glass mortar]

what blade rush really does is have a chance to proc ur mastery on every single target it hits (uncapped) and each of those mastery hits does BF tho

[fierce aurora]

like every other charge effect that has a minimum of 25y

[glass mortar]

so thats kind a funny interaction

[fierce aurora]

wild, too bad our mastery sucks ass

[glass mortar]

and that blade rush also sucks ass

zac simmed it on live and on 30 targets it would be a dps gain tho

😎

its better on alpha

[fierce aurora]

i used it a lot in DF before we had 4x grappling hooks lol

was nice for mobility in pvp

but now its obsolete even for that purpose

[glass mortar]

you know i just realized that BR being sqrted barely even matters since most of its big aoe damage in DF was the mastery interaction wasnt it? @vivid vessel

as long as its doing some damage to the targets

[vivid vessel]

thast was before it got buffed to 200% tho

i think its silly to sqrt br

when its litteraly

trash

and the only thing that scales in aoe for outlaw

but i guess idk

[fierce aurora]

yeah cause BF is a hard cap

[glass mortar]

i mean the way our mastery scales differently in aoe vs st probably needs to be addressed at some point

or they could just leave it turbo garbage forever ig

[fierce aurora]

~~i mean the way ~~our mastery scales differently in aoe vs st probably needs to be addressed at some point

FTFY

[glass mortar]

its fiiiiine flavor wise it just needs to be modernized

idk its w/e mastery rework is pretty far down my list of what alpha rogue needs rn

[fierce aurora]

i want it to be based around pistols now that KS is a pistol ability

having it be melee procs sucks when we're like pseudo-midrange

[glass mortar]

i will strongly agree that i think its very cringe new Kspree animation is broken by ur mastery procs

[fierce aurora]

and also not proc off of pistol abilities in general

[glass mortar]

making u swing ur sword mid shot over and over

[fierce aurora]

lmao i never even noticed

[patent mirage]

shoot shoot stab shoot swing

[fierce aurora]

i do know that you can get disarmed mid KS though, which continues the channel but halts the damage (unlike other pistol abilities that are fully usable)

[glass mortar]

i just wanna unload

or have a smooth animation

[vivid vessel]

?

wtf

[glass mortar]

its jaring because u will literally pull ur pistol out then swing and put it away before it even shoots

for like half the animation

[glass mortar]

[fierce aurora]

i play a mechagnome so all of my animations are a jumbled blob of mechanical parts and weapons with smoke effects anyway

im gonna miss my weakaura that plays DK64 peanut popgun sounds whenever im actually hitting targets with KS though, the sound is so quiet normally and those shot sounds tell me whether or not im actually in range to hit anything or not lmao

[glass mortar]

oh god i almost forgot

the most unplayable part about midnight

no more Zac gun sound WA

[vivid vessel]

no but

you know what im scared off

[glass mortar]

the default sound of procs in this game are criminally quiet

[fierce aurora]

holding out hope that theyll re-allow custom SFX for on use spells/abilities eventually on the alpha but i doubt ill have the ability to make SFX happen on damage ticks

[vivid vessel]

not having the relound sound on opp proc

[glass mortar]

if i cant have my maxed out volume ace sound effect i dont even wanna play

[vivid vessel]

like without that idk if i can play outlaw

[glass mortar]

[vivid vessel]

its half the fun of the spec to me

[fierce aurora]

yeah so many of my specs will literally just be not fun anymore without my random funny sfx

i have a mario kart item box sound that plays when i RtB

10x more fun

they HAVE shown that the in-game cooldown manager will have options for sound effects on use and like when a buff falls off, i just dont know if theyll allow custom sfx

maybe an addon will still be able to do that

[patent mirage]

the problem with baseline ui is its very poor compared to what we have now

they should have worked it out first and the release it

[fierce aurora]

or for specific conditions like playing a sound when you get 5 combo points from ace

[fierce aurora]

tbf thats kinda what the alpha is for

they did say theyd be overly restrictive early on

and pull stuff back as needed

[patent mirage]

like i dont see how changing how my cp bar looks like is bad for the game

[vivid vessel]

you will be able to have a cp bar

but i think

[fierce aurora]

yeah theyve def said that they want to keep that sort of thing customizable, its just not possible rn

[vivid vessel]

the max you can do is a progress bar

with ticks

xd

[gaunt phoenix]

not having dynamic grouping is already a wtf moment

[fierce aurora]

and if it relies on WAs itll be boned if they cease development

at least ghostly strike is going away so i wont need a sound to play that confirms whether or not i was actually in melee range with enough energy when i pressed it off GCD

[glass mortar]

hmm

we have like no off gcd cp gen in midnight huh

we still have ADr but u cast it less often

and no ghostly

[frail veldt]

you cant use bte while disarmed

[fierce aurora]

yeah you can

[frail veldt]

I cant lol

[fierce aurora]

100%

[frail veldt]

in pvp

[fierce aurora]

i do it all the time

[frail veldt]

just goes grey

[vivid vessel]

ye you can

[fierce aurora]

its like the best option for when you get disarmed lol

pistol shot and bte

spam

[frail veldt]

maybe I have a macro thats fucked or something rofl

[vivid vessel]

this mewo guiy is such a pvp noob wtf

[fierce aurora]

yeah do you have a dispatch macro?

[gaunt phoenix]

Bte and ps shouldnt require a weapon

[frail veldt]

I didnt think so

[vivid vessel]

ye i mean

i know it works when you are disarmed

i rmemeber spamming that

in pvp

[fierce aurora]

yeah it def does

[vivid vessel]

I hate pvp also

fuck pvp

[frail veldt]

nah fuck you

[gaunt phoenix]

wtf .. mewo..

[vivid vessel]

?

[frail veldt]

I think pvp is the biggest winner

[vivid vessel]

be civil

[frail veldt]

in all of midnight

so far

[vivid vessel]

solo said

[fierce aurora]

thats why i was annoyed when i pointed out on the ptr that killing spree was able to be disarmed and they never fixed it

[gaunt phoenix]

true

[fierce aurora]

i even said ahead of time when they announced the rework "yeah theyre 100% not gonna remember to flag this differently"

[frail veldt]

I guess maybe they changed it to be like that so you can still get the combo points?

[glass mortar]

well to be fair

[frail veldt]

idk

[glass mortar]

bte and PS are 30 yard ranges like a gun ability

kspree is a melee ability tho

[frail veldt]

funny it doesnt do damage though

[fierce aurora]

well old killing spree literally just ended instantly if you got disarmed

[glass mortar]

for some reason

it just uses ur gun animation

[frail veldt]

yeah well you also couldnt use it while disarmed so that one made sense

[vivid vessel]

its prolly gonna target a pet anywa

[frail veldt]

but new KS is weird cuz it hits with mainhand and off hand

[fierce aurora]

you also cant use KS while disarmed

[glass mortar]

lmao true

[fierce aurora]

it just doesnt get canceled when you get disarmed mid channel

[glass mortar]

is new kspree just passively worthless vs unholy dk or what

[frail veldt]

oh new one you cant?

[glass mortar]

hide inside ur army

[fierce aurora]

the damage stops but the channel continues (if you trinket the disarm it continues)

[frail veldt]

weird so its probably two abilities

[fierce aurora]

but you cant initiate it

if youre already disarmed

[frail veldt]

the channel probably "casts" other abilities or something

super weird

[fierce aurora]

still though ill take that over the old one lmao

literally any monk could just focus disarm you all game

the frame you hit killing spree

[frail veldt]

I mean if theyre disarming you during KS theyre trolling haha

total waste

[fierce aurora]

old KS it was def worth

[frail veldt]

every good monk disarming when his WA says I have subterfuge

would absolutely decimate your damage

fucking ranged disarm

so dumb

cant be evasioned

[fierce aurora]

nah they just incap that

or vice versa

but disarm on KS was better cause it canceled it, disarm on subterfuge has a chance to do nothing if you get lucky with ace/crackshot lol

[frail veldt]

incap would cancel it too though

[fierce aurora]

yeah

[frail veldt]

most monks I know dont blow incap exclusively for defense

[fierce aurora]

monks and surv hunter could make it so outlaw couldnt play the game

surv hunter would rotate disarm and scatter

[frail veldt]

fuuuuck scatter

[fierce aurora]

monk would rotate disarm and incap

at high ratings literally the frame i came out of stealth i was focus scattered by every hunter lol

[frail veldt]

disarm is just too short of a cd to be ranged

yeah they always did

I would save adr

cuz I knew they would do that

every opener

[fierce aurora]

i dont even care as much that its ranged, its the fact that you cant evade or cloak it

literally zero counterplay

[frail veldt]

you used to be able to cloak it off

before they deleted that talent

[fierce aurora]

yeah when you could cloak physical stuff

[frail veldt]

rip

[fierce aurora]

but tbh against WW id always hold cloak for karma lmao

cause youd just kill them

if they used it on you

since i guess its considered a physical debuff (the dot is magic, but the actual karma debuff is physical)

so youd cloak it off and itd end immediately

and you kill them

cloaking disarm was def nice against warriors/rogues/MW though

[frail veldt]

yeah I mean back when we had the talent theyd be dumb to karma a rogue

[glass mortar]

wait does disarming not also reduce the damage of ur abilities substantially

re: disarming crackshot

[frail veldt]

it does

[fierce aurora]

you lose the stats

[glass mortar]

ur weapons are a massive portion of the modifier on the damage of BtE and PS

like

probably over 50% of it?

[frail veldt]

you arent killing anything

when disarmed

outlaw already hits like a wet noodle

[fierce aurora]

you can when they use it desperately at low hp

[glass mortar]

i have no clue how the damage calculations work with ur weapons unequipped but i imagine u would be doing next to no damage

mh at least oh does jackshit

[fierce aurora]

ive def finished people off with the combination of a full CP bte + a coin flip

also assuming youre not the only one doing damage to them

[elder phoenix]

tbh im feeling the same way

game sucks rn lol even looking at midnight it aint lookin good. 🤷‍♂️

[fierce aurora]

but yeah realistically even if KS didnt get paused by disarm it wouldnt be doing the same damage

[elder phoenix]

only reason im playing rn cuz some of my irl friends started playing but they quit like 2 weeks ago lol

[fierce aurora]

i have faith in a lot of the changes tbh, im just concerned about WAs

[elder phoenix]

i might check midnight out

But tbh

thats just cuz of the housing

[fierce aurora]

also a major reason to play, regardless of how specs feel lol

[elder phoenix]

I literally havent touched a mythic raid and only 2 lock outs of heroic

and im 719 ilvl lol.... and i havent upgraded passed 723

[gleaming wyvern]

I feel like I'm missing something fundamental trying to learn how to play outlaw again. I know its a terrible metric, but only doing like 2.1-2.2 mil on the Kelpfist dummy with the M+ spec feels wrong, unless it really just does tank damage in single target because of all the aoe talents. I used to be good at this spec and re-learning it since I last played it in BFA is entirely foreign now 😭

[gaunt phoenix]

You can sim your target dummy dps to get an idea

like change patchwerk to target dummy

Depending on your gear that might be about what you're gonna do

our ST in keys ain't pretty

[quaint mauve]

but it definitely shouldn’t be that low

[gaunt phoenix]

Well no but if they are a returning playing their gear might be 705 or whatever

[frail veldt]

yeah normally im super excited but im honestly a little scared that this season will be the last season that I get to play the wow that I enjoy

[keen belfry]

i am dooming on it too

as we know

im legit so worird about the UI lol

[frail veldt]

this is definitely the last season of this version of outlaw

and it sucks that were so weak for it haha

[keen belfry]

how crazy this crackshot got one good season

i guess 1.5

s2 doesnt really count imo

killing spree

[frail veldt]

same

KS killed it

DFS3

was one of the most fun seasons of wow

ive ever played

[gaunt phoenix]

df s3 was good

[keen belfry]

so good

[vivid vessel]

do oyu not rmemeber

df s3

how bugged it was

idk

was so cringe

[frail veldt]

and YET

AND YET

it was still so fun

[covert kestrel]

nevertheless, we persisted

[keen belfry]

i will say

2 vanish absolutely dumpsters 1

and bte reset on vanish

like actual QOL needed

[frail veldt]

oh for sure

but imo

both of our hero trees

make the spec worse

[keen belfry]

look my old UI

[gaunt phoenix]

ye that's gone

[keen belfry]

fyrakk was getting fucked up here

[frail veldt]

we can "customize the appearance" right?

so you could probably make it look the same

with none of the functionality haha

[keen belfry]

my first ever CE 😭 fuck u fyrakk!

[ripe ibex]

most damage

[frail veldt]

imagine topping damage

as outlaw

in a raid fight

mostly ST

[ripe ibex]

s3 outlaw

peak rtb gameplay

[frail veldt]

eh tbh I didnt like the tier cuz it made waiting feel even worse

[covert kestrel]

WE USED TO BE THINKERS

[keen belfry]

u guys dont even know how much dmg i did in p1 of fyrakk

[frail veldt]

cuz you wanted to always roll over present buffs

[keen belfry]

actual infinite dmg

i beat the aug buffed dps

[ripe ibex]

holy and echoing reprimand

best button

[covert kestrel]

https://tenor.com/view/how-to-train-your-dragon-gif-23356423

[glass mortar]

mfw last season was probably the best season of crackshot we ever get and it was ruined by kspree existing

🥹

[ripe ibex]

i loved killing spree tbh

[sullen wyvern]

I think he meant pre rework ks

not current one, current one is beautiful

[covert kestrel]

https://tenor.com/view/dog-look-looking-awkward-what-gif-1858061763692613053

[glass mortar]

current one is pretty bad too

[ripe ibex]

tbh i was talking about pre rework

[sullen wyvern]

I like current one

it doesnt kill me

[glass mortar]

its about as baby step of above "it can kill you" as they coulda gotten

ok but u see the problem

ur bar is far far far too low

[sullen wyvern]

im used to it

that's what blizzard gives us

[glass mortar]

true aint that outlaw

[ripe ibex]

hey man sometimes you died but you always did so much damage

[glass mortar]

see the problem is

ur connecting "doing so much damage" with kspree

[covert kestrel]

yeah but imagine if it did literally anything else and the same damage

[frail veldt]

old KS did less damage

[sullen wyvern]

I like new KS cuz it gives me time to scratch something on my body while using it

[glass mortar]

as if u somehow had to pay the tax of "sometimes ur rotational ability just kills you" to do that damage

[sullen wyvern]

cuz you know

when you paly outlaw you gotta be hands on

[glass mortar]

we had favorable tuning, and kspree existed

[ripe ibex]

wdym

[frail veldt]

yeah or change your focus target

[frail veldt]

old KS dmg < new KS dmg

[ripe ibex]

well

no

[frail veldt]

whats confusing

new one does more damage and more dpet

[glass mortar]

the issue is somehow ur connecting old kspree to the damage we did with it

we did high damage in s2 because we were tuned very high

[patent mirage]

new one does more dmg because you wont die

[glass mortar]

not because kspree itself or that was strong

[frail veldt]

jason I think youre just conflating your overall damage with the damage from KS last season

[ripe ibex]

sure maybe the press of it does slightly more damage but you are pressing it less often and it isn’t doing prio damage

[glass mortar]

way more damage

[frail veldt]

its WAY more damage

[glass mortar]

probably does like 5X the damage a cast of old kspree

[frail veldt]

the lack of funnel sucks though yes

but old KS sucked

[ripe ibex]

pressing it less often means less ub less flawless form

[frail veldt]

old KS if you could cancel it we prob would have

[ripe ibex]

definitely does less now

[glass mortar]

well we do less

[frail veldt]

thats our hero talent

[glass mortar]

because we are a weaker spec

[frail veldt]

we do less damage

KS does more damage

[glass mortar]

its not related to relative damage of kspree at all

to be clear

[gaunt phoenix]

fight

[frail veldt]

HAHA

[gaunt phoenix]

about it

[ripe ibex]

the killing spree change was a massive nerf to outlaw

[frail veldt]

no

[ripe ibex]

i do not understand what you are talking about

[frail veldt]

the rest of the changes were a nerf

[glass mortar]

uh

[frail veldt]

the KS itself was not why we are bad

[glass mortar]

i mean it was before they retuned outlaw around that nerf

[frail veldt]

we got a new tier that is shit for us

ilvl scaling went up

and outlaw doesnt scale

[glass mortar]

u are just conflating the strength of ks with the strength of the spec in a season tho

[frail veldt]

the only part of new KS that nerfed us was its prio damage

[glass mortar]

is more of what we are trying to point out

u had the same numerical kspree and design in s1 of this expac