outlaw

[vivid vessel]

and the others are solo kickable

or you make it work

since the cast time is so long

[mighty pivot]

that place is horrible with all the blinking mobs holy

most annoying mechanic

[loud garden]

Brilliant, 2 different mobs that jump around

ty bb

Hopefully my group will be able to time a single priory now

After failing 7 times !

such a cringe dungeon

[vivid vessel]

ok so

in priory

what route you doing

left or right

[loud garden]

right

[vivid vessel]

gg

cant help you

we are left enjoyers

[loud garden]

My group is hard convinced right is the play

[vivid vessel]

left has more kicks

well idk about that

every season we have the fastest priory

and thats just by trying it out once

yolo playing

and we have kept the same route

as s2

still holding up right

[loud garden]

we also always pull the first 4 footman which is annoying

[loud garden]

u guys are just built diff

[mighty pivot]

I can't wait to see midnight's footman equivalent

they love this type of mob so much that they added tazavesh too

[vestal notch]

i dont want to see more teleporting lizzards i hate those

[hollow temple]

!prepull

[mighty pivot]

!prekey

[ornate heath]

Pre-key fuckery

• RTB TWICE some time before entering dungeon to get 4 Supercharger stacks. These stacks don't have a duration.
• Just before key placement use AR into KS to get Loaded Dice and 2 free Unseen Blade procs.
• KS will consume one stack of Supercharger but the 3rd+4th stack are removed when the key starts anyway.
• During the bubble, DO NOT RTB or recast AR as you will lose the CPs and Supercharger stacks when the bubble ends.
• After the bubble drops use RTB again (now back at 4 stacks of Supercharger).
• Before entering the first pack BF into Stealth.
• Open onto the pack with AR into BtE.

[vivid vessel]

4 types of mobs that should never exist in the dungeons:

• the guys that stay afk outside like the hundmaster or the priory shooters
• the runners like the halls goblins or the murlokcs, these guys legit kill the dungeon for me
• footmans, why shield alo
• jumpers, any guy that jumps away, all the mobs in eco, the frontal guys in flood, the hundmasters..

Like no one enjoy any of these mobs

I don't even understand

Why these designs are still here

[dawn talon]

i don't mind mobs that jump out as long as they come back in

but mobs that flee belong in classic

that shit should never be in the game

[quasi verge]

the runners are the absolute worst

[mighty pivot]

I don't like the bloodguards in ara-ara either, but they are the least annoying from the ones you listed

[vivid vessel]

bloodguards?

[mighty pivot]

big beetles which give 50% dr to anything around

[vivid vessel]

ah ye

[ocean lodge]

Spam casters who just cast something else if you kick them are also super fun and engaging.

[dull rapids]

hello, quick question, as KIR talent, do i spam dice whenever its ready? or just when i get a good dice?

[glass mortar]

if ur playing sleight u can roll over any 2 buff or under iirc (u can choose not to do this if u have broadsides and r playing 1fth tho)

if ur not playing sleight u roll anytime you have less then 2 buffs or have loaded dice and 2 buffs

all the reroll rules r in the FaQ

[dull rapids]

so basically with sleight i can spam roll?

i removed thiefs vers for sleight

which i wasnt playing before

[gaunt phoenix]

!rtb

[ornate heath]

How to use RTB
(Assuming season 3 tier and Supercharger)

• Roll if you have 0 or 1 buffs.
• Roll if you have 2 buffs and Loaded Dice is active.
• Roll once asap after pressing KIR, as your buffs don't get rolled away. Use this weakaura to see when your buffs don't get rolled away (yellow border).
• After the KIR roll, continue to watch the weakaura as buffs tick down. As your buffs expire you may hit a point where your remaining buffs are yellow and you can roll again.

[dull rapids]

for keys

[gaunt phoenix]

you don't 'spam roll' because you very frequently have 4+ buffs active

[dull rapids]

oh i see

[gaunt phoenix]

but if you have exactly 1-2 buffs, you roll

[dull rapids]

so i should also roll when i activate adrenaline

[frail veldt]

I think there are some designers at blizzard who don't understand that challenging elements should be enjoyable to overcome not just miserable to experience

[errant canopy]

are people playing sleight of hand or is it more of a gimmick?

[frail veldt]

people are playing it

it is technically better

it also feels better to play

imo

[hasty warren]

no it's for street

this one is improved wonden poisson

[frail veldt]

I use crippling for gambit

first part

so murlocs dont run as far

its very nice

could be used on the stupid little guys at the start of HOA too

[worldly shale]

bro dexter is getting better and better

its amazing how much good stuff there is when u dont suffer with outlaw

nirvana or something idk

[ocean lodge]

are we just letting the scam float there

[worldly shale]

shit floats, man

[ocean lodge]

true and real

can I tell the bot to low tier god itself

[proven ocean]

@vivid vessel zacy wacky

!

[vivid vessel]

what is it cuh

[proven ocean]

idk cuh!

!

me

bored

[vivid vessel]

[proven ocean]

!

when rogue buffs

?

[vivid vessel]

ye..

[proven ocean]

zac..

crazy how rogue always needs buffs every season...

[vast mauve]

do i use 2 stacks FTH in m+ on aoe? or do i only spend them at 6 stacks

[proven ocean]

worst optimized class in the game...

starts mid

ends dogcow

cant wait to ask for buffs again next season!

[vast mauve]

do i use 2 stacks FTH in m+ on aoe? or do i only spend them at 6 stacks? can anyone explain, cuz im p sure ive seen zac send 2 stacks fth in rotation

[frail veldt]

neither

[raw ocean]

i think you spend to not overcap when you have 2 or fewer combo points generally.

[frail veldt]

you send fth as a builder if you dont have UB stacks(which would prioritize SS) or you dont have bladeflurry ready(which would prioritize bladeflurry for cps) or dont have adr and you are less than a certain number of combo points

[vast mauve]

okay makes sense, whats UB?

[frail veldt]

unseen blade

[raw ocean]

unseen blade, proc from hero talent making sinister strike hit hard

[frail veldt]

its part of the core mechanic of trickster

its makes your next sinister strike generate a stack of escalating blade

[vast mauve]

ahh i c

[frail veldt]

once you get to 4 of those you can use coup de grace

checkout #outlaw-faq

[vast mauve]

ah ye

just returned a week ago

need to get into outlaw again

[gusty dew]

Fuck blz

[copper radish]

How’s all the new main gearing going

[hasty warren]

ok but what is crippling talent ?

[viscid forge]

!fuu

[ornate heath]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hasty warren]

I don't understand what is it

[cinder relic]

Usually how it goes it "rogue is decent" and then they buff every class in the game, except rogue, and then rogue is in need of buffs

Like pretty much all expac rogue has been "decent" at the start and then they just leave it last to get buffed

Like in nerubar, rogue was fine, but it wasn't Fury/FDK (It was good on kyveza, silken court, and queen though)

In undermine, rogue was fine, but it wasn't WW (Basically just a slightly worse WW overall other than mugzee, where sin was the best DPS by far)

then in manaforge omega, I'd say rogue was pretty strong honestly, it's only "fallen off" because what sub helps a lot on in the specific encounter it excels at matters less and less as we get more and more gear. Obviously all 3 rogue specs are kinda shit on ST, sub manages to circumvent the large ST weakness by being able to leverage damage amps on the last 2 and end up doing good single target on the last 2

[mighty pivot]

well ye if devs make 0 changes to the class it will fall behind unless they start balancing more with nerfs rather than with buffs

[cinder relic]

and fwiw, sub will get a lot stronger through turbo boost as the kill timers become way more convinent for the spec, even on ST

A lot of these recent weeks kill timers are actually as bad as possible for sub which doesn't help it

Outlaw is kinda just mid af tho

[next thunder]

okay so this is driving me crazy - both wow head and icy veins recommending https://www.wowhead.com/item=222873/duskthread-lining as embelishments for crafted but when i go try to place an order it won't let me select it as an ebelishment, what gives?

[cinder relic]

Ur trying to put it on jewelery

It can only go on armour

[next thunder]

ah okay so it only suits wrist, thanks

[daring oxide]

where did the tc-outlaw channel go wtf

[mighty pivot]

?

[daring oxide]

nvm

i found it

i somehow deactivated it

[mighty pivot]

give vai an eyesight buff blizzard

it might be that it disappears if you have been inactive because it's a thread

[daring oxide]

nah

its

i got muted the other day

and for some reason all my channels minimised/disappeared

had to reactivate them all manually

was strange af

[mighty pivot]

good times

[indigo token]

whos ready to hear "well who cares? it's the end of expansion let things be unbalanced"

[frail veldt]

if it goes dormant discord auto hides it

[worldly shale]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1255110288081162311/1374365469884289034/KillingSpreeDawnbreaker.gif

[wintry solar]

This only applies when every spec is OP frfr

[vivid vessel]

i never understood that

if everything is op

nothing is op

are wow players just stupid

[wintry solar]

I was gonna say that but I'm busy

[frail veldt]

yes but I think it captures a feeling

you can feel strong

[forest bloom]

!!

[frail veldt]

like in how your abiltiies feel

[wintry solar]

Ye

[frail veldt]

and your damage spikes

etc

[vivid vessel]

ye you feel strong when you do more damage than the other guy

[forest bloom]

!logs

[wintry solar]

I should've been clearer. OP is a strong word.

[frail veldt]

I think a good example is something little like stone idol

on a huge uncapped aoe pack

it feels op

even though it isnt

but it still feels good

so it can be balanced

[indigo token]

i meant more so how we scale poorly with gear

[frail veldt]

but feel op

[wintry solar]

Also how fast mobs die in a high key

[frail veldt]

thast what designers should aspire to

every spec should feel op but should be relatively balanced in reality

and that is possible imo

[wintry solar]

Le sigh

[vivid vessel]

no idea what this means

im ngl

[wintry solar]

Not surprised

[frail veldt]

yeah you play a very different version of the game zac

[wintry solar]

Everyone pool money to bribe blizz

[worldly shale]

yes all 15 of us

better to bribe zac

into trolling

sandbag the spec lets go

(seems we are not bad enough yet)

[wintry solar]

Nah

We can do this

You think they'll take venmo?

[frail veldt]

I think you could kinda look at last season tier vs this season

rolling 5 buff felt op

even though mathematically the old tier wasnt that much better than the new tier once you had 2+4pc

this seasons tier feels a lot worse

[vivid vessel]

thats just gameplay

[frail veldt]

yes

[timid portal]

!def

[ornate heath]

Rogue Defensive Spreadsheet: > Click to open <

[vivid vessel]

5 buff you get more resources etc

[frail veldt]

feeling op is gameplay

being op is the meters

you can feel op without being op

[vivid vessel]

double coup doesnt feel like anything its just background numbers

[frail veldt]

exactly

youre getting it

[vivid vessel]

no

im not

[frail veldt]

lol

[vivid vessel]

because when people say they wanna feel op

they are talking about numbers

[frail veldt]

how a spec feels and how a spec performs arent always tied

it is for some players but not all

if we did 20% more damage but had only 80% adr uptime

I think we would feel less op

but be more op

they arent necessarily coupled

they have some link obviously if the spec felt great but you did healer dps

then it would just feel bad

but there is some wiggle room

[frail veldt]

to make specs feel op without being op

[cinder relic]

It's a mix. People hated the dk rework until they figured out how to make it do damage

[vivid vessel]

you are just yapping now

so idk

[fathom bramble]

I kind of see what you are getting at, but this feeling of being strong or having weight behind your actions has to have a better description than "feeling op"

[frail veldt]

I think another good way to think of it is how you feel relative to recent seasons

so if we went from 80% adr to 100% adr between seasons

and only went up by like 5% dps relative to the rest of hte pack

we might be feeling op

even though were not really any more op relative to the field

[agile orchid]

dk rework is still hated

just because it does big numbers doesn't mean it's a fun spec

[frail veldt]

which is why season 4s usually get that "everyone feels op" season cuz you have so many stats and so much haste and shit

[fathom bramble]

I did not feel op last season 4

[frail veldt]

but yeah I know what youre saying but I do think there is a difference between feeling op and actually being op

[fathom bramble]

I felt like season 3

but again

[frail veldt]

sure yeah but outlaw also doesnt get that scaling

cuz our specs rotation isnt impacted by gear

(other than haste tax)

[vivid vessel]

ok but again you are just yapping, all of what you are saying has nothing to do with what was being discussed

[indigo token]

does outlaw just need a fundamental rework at this point

[fathom bramble]

no

[frail veldt]

I was just defending the sentiment of everyone feeling op

which I do think is something that can exist

[fathom bramble]

it needs like 3 passives/abilities adjusted

[frail veldt]

so it is relevant

[fathom bramble]

and 2 chargs of AR

[indigo token]

because it seems like most of our problems come from the fact we dont scale with gear as much as other classes

[sweet iron]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-broken-cat-cat-drinking-cat-licking-cat-air-gif-20661740

[fathom bramble]

this is trivially fixed without a fundamental rework

[agile orchid]

we have one stat that is mandatory up to a point and another that is completely useless

[fathom bramble]

it's just a matter of whether or not blizzard even sees it as a problem

[frail veldt]

yeah they could fix our scaling

[agile orchid]

I wonder why we don't scale as much

[frail veldt]

they have just chosen not to

[indigo token]

i mean i dont want a fundamental rework im just very demoralized

[frail veldt]

doesnt even need a rework

they could in theory giga buff mastery

to where its better than vers

they just choose not to

[agile orchid]

they mentioned multiple times outlaw as an example of a spec that cannot be played without WAs

we should expect some sort of rework

[frail veldt]

they could also buff crit by increasing our crit damage somewhere in our kit

[fathom bramble]

MM has a single very basic talent that takes them from potentially terrible scaling to very good crit scaling for example

[frail veldt]

like very easily

would take one line

[vivid vessel]

this is so fake btw

and it highlight the devs incompetence

[frail veldt]

thieves vers could also increase our crit damage by 30%

boom

scaling

[vivid vessel]

cause thjey say tghat then they give us trickster

[sweet iron]

i thought they evolved the cooldown tracker to actually work for that kind of thing now

[vivid vessel]

prolly the worse offender

since i started the game

[frail veldt]

I think the higher level people who dont actually make the changes acknowledge the issue

[indigo token]

like

[frail veldt]

then the lower level people who implement these things

[fathom bramble]

cooldown tracker is good for the stuff that most outlaw players would reasonably need to track

[frail veldt]

fuck it up

lol

[indigo token]

this is so confusing to me

container buff

[fathom bramble]

trickster and RTB container are the only things missing

[agile orchid]

to be fair I saw them mention it before season 3 got released

[indigo token]

and trickster

[frail veldt]

I think theyve promoted all their talent

[indigo token]

thats it

[frail veldt]

and its problematic

[indigo token]

maybe maybe KIR/RTB WA

[fathom bramble]

container and trickster can both be fixed by unhiding some buffs that blizzard has chosen to have left hidden

[frail veldt]

weird issue in the tech world where you promote people out of the positions that they are good at

you get paid more to be less directly impactful

[fathom bramble]

I wouldn't be surprised if outlaw is only mentioned because we have so many buff/debuffs

and the cooldown tracker they already made is the 'fix'

[vivid vessel]

Assa has more

Outlaw is legit just rtb

You barely track anything else

Bf is Perma up

[frail veldt]

I think ours just affect your dps more

[vivid vessel]

ADR is Perma up

[frail veldt]

assa you could ignore everything

[vivid vessel]

Snd is gone

[frail veldt]

and do non shit damage

[vivid vessel]

What

I'm talking about dots etc

They just have more stuffs to track

We have nothing

I barely track anything

[fathom bramble]

and yet without a cooldown tracker outlaw fills your top right with things that you can barely see and need to care about

[vivid vessel]

It's legit just tracking rtb

Fth I guess

[cosmic yoke]

I'm bad I look at adr all the time because I can't keep uptime. Conversely I really only look at the number of buffs from rtb rather than what I got most of the time. Really not that much

[agile orchid]

it's true, it used to be way worse

[fathom bramble]

like if you are counting each RTB buff outlaw has to have the most buffs in the game

surely

and we don't really know what their intent behind anything is since they are so vague anyway

[agile orchid]

the only significant RTB buff is broadside anyway

[frail veldt]

well you need to track all of your cooldowns right

to know when you can press them

[agile orchid]

you can do that without WAs tho

[frail veldt]

ye ofc

[agile orchid]

just by watching your ability bar

and every spec does it anyway

[frail veldt]

you can play assa with 0 was too

debuffs are on enemy nameplates

even on default ui theyre on the unit frame plate

[vivid vessel]

Ok buffs are top right aswell

?

[frail veldt]

exactly

[fathom bramble]

we can't move buffs though

[vivid vessel]

Tf you yapping

[frail veldt]

so whats the point here lol

[agile orchid]

for assa you mostly care about scent of blood tracking

[vivid vessel]

Go play assa with default ui plates

[frail veldt]

I think it could be because outlaw loses so much dps being played wrong? idk what their motivation is

or maybe theyre just seeing "outlaw hard" and how often people use was like "RTB NOW" and theyre linking those together

as outlaw needs WAs

[cinder relic]

People have misunderstood outlaw variance for years

[agile orchid]

if you read reddit complaints all they bitch about is roll the bones and vanish for some reason

[wintry solar]

Vanish I get. Trickster makes it annoying

[fathom bramble]

that's because they are too slow to cast vanish without reseting combat

[agile orchid]

devs probably read those

[fathom bramble]

which is like a halfreal issue

[frail veldt]

having to make a count of how many of 6 buffs exist and what their duration is and whether those buffs came from KiR or RTB then deciding to roll based on that

is really hard to compare to "do I have garrote up"

[wintry solar]

Well

[frail veldt]

like cmon lol

[agile orchid]

umm no

[wintry solar]

Frankly I think it's time to get ready for the deletion of rtb

[agile orchid]

you know that you should kir at a specific number of buffs

and immediately after you rtb

[wintry solar]

Just in case

[agile orchid]

you don't need to track more than that

[wintry solar]

Without rtb, it's just combat with guns

[frail veldt]

thats just not true lol

[vivid vessel]

legit count number of icon, need to count up to 4

[cosmic yoke]

Rtb was in the trailer. Well unless they are using the anim but I doubt it

[frail veldt]

lets say you have 2 rtb buffs and youre planning to press rtb cuz you have loaded dice but then you cto proc

now you shouldnt press rtb

youd have to observe that very clearly

[vivid vessel]

ye thats count up to 2

[frail veldt]

we cant seriously be defending rtb rules right now pretending they arent unecessarily tedious

[vivid vessel]

even easier

[frail veldt]

ah I tricked you zac

[vivid vessel]

nah rtb is the easiest its ever been

you are cooked

[frail veldt]

the rtb duration

was actually

lower than cto

[agile orchid]

not defending rtb but you are overcomplicating things

[frail veldt]

so you rolled wrong

ggs

[wintry solar]

True. But then again, it could be pre-outlaw changes. We really don't know but that is a good point.

[frail veldt]

get an addon newb

[vivid vessel]

litteraly irrelevant minmax mewo

doesnt matter

you are cooked

rtb cointainer is also just a bug

make it baseline with an actual ui thing

or whatever the fuck

remove rtb bnutton

actually just remove rtb button

[wintry solar]

No

[fathom bramble]

if they unhide the container buff you will be able to tell what is going on far easier

[wintry solar]

That's stupid

[frail veldt]

LOL

[vivid vessel]

im tired of all the stupid reddit people

[frail veldt]

yeup

[vivid vessel]

yapping about rtb

[mighty pivot]

no the current rtb behaviour should not become a feature lol

[agile orchid]

I'm tired of reddit whining about vanish

[wintry solar]

I'm with them. I hate subterfuge

[frail veldt]

vanish sucks ass

[vivid vessel]

if you press kir your buffs changes to be "locked", they are locked till they expire, and you can roll while having them without losing them

[frail veldt]

reddit is right

delete subterfuge

[vivid vessel]

thats what i meant

[agile orchid]

why, vanish is just a cooldown

[frail veldt]

leave vanish as a defensive

[vivid vessel]

and you would have diff icons

[proven ocean]

?

[agile orchid]

treat it as such

[frail veldt]

give us a pirate shadow dance

[proven ocean]

we talked about it in DF

[vivid vessel]

like a lil lock on it

[proven ocean]

lol

when crackshot was introduced

[frail veldt]

pirate shadow dance pls

[proven ocean]

we wanted crackshot to be seperate

long time ago

[frail veldt]

make UHUH auto pause out of combat

[mighty pivot]

ok but rtb has so many more quirks right now, and we don't even know what's intended either

[proven ocean]

wdym "reddit"

[frail veldt]

or when you dont make any attacks for more than 6 seconds

then we can mount in combat

and not care

for those bosses

[vivid vessel]

2 ?

its just container

and the bug

[frail veldt]

read up bro

[vivid vessel]

of buffs stayuing behind

[cosmic yoke]

I reckon killing spree will give uhuh and they will call it a day

[vivid vessel]

which no one cares about

[frail veldt]

Rob — 12:07 PM
I'm tired of reddit whining about vanish

[vivid vessel]

no one plays around that

it just happens

ok gg

i kept my buffs

wtf

[frail veldt]

I said "reddit is right" in response

[vivid vessel]

banger

fix it for all i care

it doesnt affect anything

[red zinc]

just three more days of this

[cinder relic]

I think with delves being a new core, evergreen system, alongside the new prey system further incentivizing open world difficulty scaling, I think vanish resetting combat while being a primary DPS cooldown is a fair complaint honestly\

[frail veldt]

tbh though our dependency on subterfuge causes a lot of problems and I think we'd be better off if UHUH auto triggered out of combat or on not being able to use attacks and then just have a pirate shadow dance

[mighty pivot]

[proven ocean]

im not saying ur wrong

im just saying reddit is 2 years late

[vivid vessel]

vanish doeent reset trash in delves lol

[frail veldt]

oh sure

[proven ocean]

into that recommendation

[vivid vessel]

youi have brann

[frail veldt]

yeah reddit is always late

[frail veldt]

it does to new players

[cinder relic]

I feel like vanish is a bit wonky in delves idk

Sometimes it does sometimes it doesn't

[vivid vessel]

no cause brann doesnt reset

[frail veldt]

vanish def causes problems both in open world and in delves

[proven ocean]

no it isnt

[vivid vessel]

do you guys not do delves

[frail veldt]

he does

[vivid vessel]

or what

[frail veldt]

if hes jumping

[cinder relic]

I do delves

[vivid vessel]

no???:

\

bro

[frail veldt]

do you not?

[cinder relic]

Lol

[frail veldt]

lol zac

[vivid vessel]

you cant even vanish trash

[proven ocean]

also u never reset combat with vanish unless u press it wrong

[vivid vessel]

cause brann

is stuck in combat

perma

[mighty pivot]

bran stealths if you are in vanish for more than a splitsecond no?

[vivid vessel]

tf you guys yuapping about

[agile orchid]

I only do delves in the first 2 weeks of a season

[fathom bramble]

these systems and vanish in general should just not reset combat so easily/erratically

[vivid vessel]

ye for like 5s straight

if you afk

[proven ocean]

u have to press vanish right when a gcd is ready and ur in melee

[vivid vessel]

200 yards away

from trash

[proven ocean]

thats how trash never resets

[vivid vessel]

maybe if you are lucky

[fathom bramble]

why is it that vanish sometimes resets mobs in 0.2 seconds and sometimes fails to reset them for 3 seconds

[vivid vessel]

it will reset

[proven ocean]

zac

what are u yapping about

cuz im convinced no one understood anything u said

stop typing like me idiot

[mighty pivot]

I dunno either I've noticed this a lot

[vivid vessel]

im saying

in delves

[proven ocean]

...

[vivid vessel]

its impossible to reset trash

cause of brann

[proven ocean]

ah

ye

well not just that

u vanish when a gcd is ready

[mighty pivot]

it's typical wow combat inconsistency

[proven ocean]

not when gcd isnt

that way brann wont matter

[fathom bramble]

like having vanish as an extra cooldown without bloating out the bar is such a reasonable thing to have in the game

[wintry solar]

Ur inconsistent

[proven ocean]

cuz brann can reset if he bugs out

[frail veldt]

yeah but obv this requirement is shitty for new/average players

[proven ocean]

also

[fathom bramble]

and almost every rogue archetype in every game I've ever played has midcombat stealth/hiding

[mighty pivot]

no I'm consistently bad

[fathom bramble]

it's not weird or bad

[proven ocean]

for all the avg players out there

[vivid vessel]

bro

[proven ocean]

dont take this as an offense btw

but

[vivid vessel]

thats not a thing in delves tho

[wintry solar]

Honestly it being a thing in general is dumb

[proven ocean]

dont press vanish ever when a gcd isn't ready

[vivid vessel]

you guys are talking about open world

[fathom bramble]

vanish currently has a bad implementation with combat reseting and that's it

[vivid vessel]

in delve you can be vanishing however you want

[proven ocean]

because if u do ur missing auto attacks

[vivid vessel]

it doesnt reset

[proven ocean]

not just "reset" part

[vivid vessel]

cause brann

is a stupid motherfucker

[fathom bramble]

and since it has a skill floor/cap it makes it even worse since some players percieve it as always resetting

[proven ocean]

yeye

btrw

zac

did u try hades 2

no cappy cip cop good game cuh shseeeesh

!

[vivid vessel]

no why would i try hades 2

i play wow only

[proven ocean]

idk

[frail veldt]

yeah theres really no valid defense for this being in the game

[proven ocean]

noob

!

guys guys

chat cchat

no cappy no cappy

[frail veldt]

like the reality here is what benefit does subterfuge have on our gameplay vs replacing it with auto UHUH and pirate shadow dance

[proven ocean]

idk what i wanna say but

ye

wemo

my keyboard is kinda cool as cow no cappy

!

[frail veldt]

im getting the itch

zeross

to make a new keyboard

[wintry solar]

We need a better name for our pirate shadow dance

[proven ocean]

this is genuinely

[frail veldt]

I want better stabilizers

[proven ocean]

one of the best builds

[indigo token]

zeross is bugging out

[proven ocean]

nah

best build

i've done

[frail veldt]

I hate rattly stabilizers

[proven ocean]

its super light and it build quality is crazy

btw

[cinder relic]

Removes the utility that vanish can have in some instances

[proven ocean]

my plate is also carbonfiber

that holds keycaps

lol

[frail veldt]

but i didnt say remove vanish

[proven ocean]

it looks so fucking sick down there

[frail veldt]

so

this would increase the utility

cuz it would be only a utility button

[cinder relic]

I dont think introducing more buttons is what the spec needs either

[frail veldt]

there are things to remove

that could make room for dance

like gs

or rtb

or bte tbh

[mighty pivot]

fuck gs

[indigo token]

BTE??

[frail veldt]

yeah just have dispatch turn into bte in dance

its not like bte has cool or fun rules

its cd auto resets

its become pretty irrelevant

[agile orchid]

just give AR bonuses permanently and rework the button to basically be current vanish

[frail veldt]

nah I think upkeeping adr via the cdr gameplay loop is pretty fundamentall to outlaw

imo

[agile orchid]

honestly I would like them to make mastery good

just make your gun shot abilities do more damage or something

problem solved

[frail veldt]

there are many outlaw problems that arent hard to solve

[mighty pivot]

make mastery increase crit damage % of bte

x10 crits

[fathom bramble]

some peoples solutions have very disfavorable knock-on effects though

[cinder relic]

^

The amount of "simple solutions" I read people have for sub that would actively make the spec worse is a lot

A lot of small changes have a lot of large implications that unless ur really thinking about it are easy to miss

[frail veldt]

you should point them out lol

[cinder relic]

Well I mean, look at UHUH for example

[fathom bramble]

well what I want out of sub runs so counter to what every sub player I see seems to want

so I tend to just stay away from that whole thing

[keen belfry]

I just got a cat

[agile orchid]

do you think UHUH will survive midnight?

[cinder relic]

I felt it was a very common thing in here for ppl to say "It sucks that AR uptime is low, and also it sucks that you can't use AR at the end of a pack because then you waste the uptime, but not using it feels even worse cuz how RB works"

So then they make a talent like UHUH, which now after playing with it for the entire expansion, I feel like a lot of people have soured on UHUH in general

[frail veldt]

yeah but I dont think people want to go back

well they might

but tbh

they also did this

to spriest

without the negatives(so far at least)

[cinder relic]

My main point is that "simple solutions" and "good ideas" can easily have cascading effects that suck later down the line

[frail veldt]

they just did it better

[fathom bramble]

uhuh should move to a spot where we can take it easily all the time and just be pausing if you haven't spent or generated combo points in the last 3 seconds

[cinder relic]

That's all lol

[agile orchid]

I don't remember outlaw doing tank dps without AR before UHUH

correct me if I'm wrong

[frail veldt]

weve done non tank dps with UHUH as well

[cinder relic]

I mean everything is relative

The spec was balanced around 50% ar uptime before

now its balanced around 90%+ uptime

[agile orchid]

which one would you have?

[cinder relic]

I mean I've not liked the direction of Outlaw for awhile now and I've wanted a resource reset for awhile

[vivid vessel]

This is still one of the most stupidest take

[frail veldt]

Guy is not a s3 rework enjoyer

[frail veldt]

wdym

[vivid vessel]

We basically have 100% ADR

[frail veldt]

its accurate

[cinder relic]

I mean I liked it for a bit, but I'm bored of it for sure

[frail veldt]

we are balanced around having 90+% uptime

[vivid vessel]

And you guys keep saying that outlaw must feel like shit without ADR BECAUSE we have high ultime on ADR

[frail veldt]

no

[cinder relic]

Nobody is saying that

[vivid vessel]

It litteraly should be the opposite lol

[frail veldt]

no one is saying that

[cinder relic]

I actually fucking hate typing in discord sometimes

[mighty pivot]

it's happening again

[cinder relic]

Nobody is saying Outlaw must feel like shit without AR man

[frail veldt]

blizzard def acknowledges our adr uptime and tunes us around playing hte spec with 90+% adr uptime

[cinder relic]

Try reading

[cinder relic]

Yes

[vivid vessel]

It's not balanced around 90% uptime

[frail veldt]

yes

balanced

balanced

[vivid vessel]

That make no sense to say

[frail veldt]

dps output

[cinder relic]

Read what I'm typing man

[frail veldt]

balanced around

[cinder relic]

Stop reading past what I'm typing

[frail veldt]

zac youre being zeross rn

[cinder relic]

Hes saying "tank DPS"

Not VIBES

[vivid vessel]

Because we aren't out of ADR so what would we care about DPS out of ADR

[cinder relic]

The vibes without AR are very bad

[vivid vessel]

Nah bro

[cinder relic]

The spec plays bad without AR

[vivid vessel]

Ye and that has nothing to do with havig. High ADR uptime

[frail veldt]

exactly

LOL

[vivid vessel]

That's just cause they fucked up the spec

[frail veldt]

yes

[cinder relic]

You finally figured out what were saying

[frail veldt]

that has nothing to do with being balanced around 90% adr uptime

[vivid vessel]

And guy implied the opposite

[frail veldt]

thats an isolated issue

[vivid vessel]

Wtf you guys talking about

[frail veldt]

he did not

[cinder relic]

Stop reading what i'm implying

[frail veldt]

at all

[cinder relic]

Read what I'm typing

Jesus fucking christ man

[vivid vessel]

You typed

We are balanced around 90% ADR

[frail veldt]

that is a fact

[cinder relic]

Correct

[vivid vessel]

???

[cinder relic]

The spec is balanced around high AR uptimes

[frail veldt]

we are balanced around palying the spec correctly enough to have 90+% adr uptime

in no way

does that imply

[fathom bramble]

We(our damage) is balanced around 90% ADR uptime

[frail veldt]

"blizzard designs the spec to feel bad without adr"

its kind of insane

to jump to that conclusion

nocap

thats some fried as fuck take

[vivid vessel]

That's not what I said either wtf

[cinder relic]

Doesn't feel so good does it

Pretty annoying isn't it

[vivid vessel]

Talking to you

Ye

[frail veldt]

zac

— 12:26 PM
Because we aren't out of ADR so what would we care about DPS out of ADR

this was never implied

[mighty pivot]

12 hour clock user

[frail veldt]

you can balance a spec around 90% adr uptime

without making the 10% do bad damage

[slate forge]

Blizzard has better data idk why you guys are so mad they clearly are in the right we don’t need a buff just get good

[cinder relic]

?

[frail veldt]

show me a clock with 24 hours on it

dingbat

[vivid vessel]

Ok why does guy mention us being balanced around high amount of ADR everytime someone says the spec feels bad put of ADR, like it wasn't possible to just feel normal out of ADR since we have such high uptime

[cinder relic]

Who is talking about how the spec feels rn

Rob said "We didn't do tank damage with 50% ar uptime"

[frail veldt]

yeah guy was responding to someone saying tank damage with UHUH

as if 90% uptime inherently leads to tank damage

but it doesnt

at all

[cinder relic]

^

[mighty pivot]

this one

[frail veldt]

that aint no clock

[vivid vessel]

Eh whatever

[frail veldt]

you just wrote the time wrong

[fathom bramble]

I would also contend that we don't do tank damage just without AR

[frail veldt]

this is a clock

count the hours

[fathom bramble]

we do tank damage with nothing

[cinder relic]

I was specifically responding to Rob talking about damage

[indigo token]

i mean, if the spec is designed to keep buff uptime, wouldnt that make the design be to have buff downtime feel bad so you're more driven to reapply it?

[frail veldt]

yeah but we dont have to

[frail veldt]

no...

not at all

[agile orchid]

are we arguing for the sake of arguing

[frail veldt]

maybe if youre a bad designer

[mighty pivot]

brother we can have digital clocks now. The future is now

[vivid vessel]

You mean a rogue dev

[cinder relic]

Zac enjoys reading past what I'm typing to a conclusion that hes made in his head of me

[indigo token]

isnt that what a failure state is though?

[frail veldt]

clocks have 12 hours

fact

[indigo token]

im not asking this to argue btw

[slate forge]

I could name one

[vivid vessel]

Nah bro you always talk about that everytime we talk about out of ADR bro

Tf you mean

[fathom bramble]

in order for out damage increasing buttons to matter they have to increase damage though, if you take all of them away and our damage doesn't go down significantly then what is the point

[vivid vessel]

You are always like

That's cause we have higher uptime of ADR

So you have to compensate

[frail veldt]

the difference doesnt need to be that high though

[vivid vessel]

Which is so fucking dumb btw

[cinder relic]

What are u talking about

[vivid vessel]

But that's litteraly your take I'm not inventing anything

[frail veldt]

you could buff non adr energy by 50% and nerf adr energy gain the same amount

and the spec would feel better

and wed all be happy

adr could just be a gcd reduction

[vivid vessel]

No it couldn't

[slate forge]

You could do a lot of things that are common sense but they won’t because they do NOTHING

[frail veldt]

well you have to add some energy

to make up for more gcds

[vivid vessel]

You need increased energy to support the reduced GCD

[frail veldt]

so 20% or whatever

yeah

but "relative" energy regen could be the same ideally

[fathom bramble]

reducing cost by the correct amount for the increased casts per second is the most correct fix

[frail veldt]

like your apm without adr to with adr should only change by exactly the gcd reduction

[frail veldt]

I agree

[vivid vessel]

Something that will never happen

[frail veldt]

right now its WAY off

[slate forge]

You wouldn’t lose energy in ar you don’t lose your baseline energy by

[vivid vessel]

Eh whatever

I don't

[devout garden]

https://tenor.com/view/rigby-freaky-cat-cat-meme-tongue-out-gif-1492882876567450372

[vivid vessel]

I don't feel like it tonight

Brb

[indigo token]

im kind of confused

[fathom bramble]

that might be true, but it's not completely ARs fault

AR isn't actually boosting your damage by that much

[frail veldt]

yeah thats an even bigger issue

[cosmic yoke]

Adr could provide a straight damage buff and have like 70% it's energy and gcd moved to baseline. It would smooth things out. I wouldn't be surprised if they did something like that

[indigo token]

what's the difference between losing uptime on ADR and that feeling awful, and lets say, having a rage drought on a warrior, or losing CDR on fire mage

[frail veldt]

not having adr just feels bad

[fathom bramble]

not having ADR specifically definitely feels way worse than it actually is

especially with how it fucks with the spellqueuewindow

[frail veldt]

so weve added "feelsbad" without adding that much corresponding "feelsgood"

[fathom bramble]

which may result in worse output than it should for some players

[frail veldt]

yeah how shit is that

like

[vivid vessel]

Outlaw isn't a spec like that, we don't have CDs , we just always blast

Historically outlaw wasn't like that

Going afk without ADR

Don't talk to me about BFA that was 10 years ago

And I wasn't there

[fathom bramble]

I mean

we were like this in bfa too

so

[solid kelp]

[fathom bramble]

it was just 40-50% uptime instead of 100%

[frail veldt]

wdym

[fathom bramble]

you still did functionally the same thing

[frail veldt]

outlaw didnt feel nearly as bad without adr

in bfa

[fathom bramble]

I meant that we were still an always blast in bfa

[cinder relic]

Its been a very common complaint of Outlaw even going back to BFA that the "spec feels terrible without AR" but that's a mix of the expectations of AR uptime have gone from 40-50 to 95+, and a lot of our "backup" tools like Blade Rush have been removed from the rotation because of how useless they are with 95+ expected uptime

Its obviously worse now than it was before, but AR has always had this "issue" of feeling really good to have

[indigo token]

ig that's the problem where we were the spec that got all the cd uptime

[vivid vessel]

Like it's not worse

Than before

Same shit as the uptime requirements

Lest not act like it hasn't become worse

[vivid vessel]

Just because it wasn't an issue before doesn't mean it hasn't gotten worse

[rotund zodiac]

Bring back dreadblades

[cinder relic]

Final boss incoming: reading an entire paragraph

[vivid vessel]

Try sending your message divided into multiples ones

Helps

[frail veldt]

COOKED

TAKE

[vivid vessel]

You are in outlaw channel buddy

[frail veldt]

jesus

read the paragraph hahahaha

[mighty pivot]

you need to break your sentences into 4 messages for zoomers

[cosmic yoke]

Yeah if it just gave 1 million mastery no one would mind not having it for feels wise

[frail veldt]

is there any way to have a subway surfers sticker

[indigo token]

dude like

[cinder relic]

blade rush I feel like was a really good button for bridging the spec between AR usages

[indigo token]

yknow how aldrachi reaver has 2 alternating moves as part of its big thing

[cinder relic]

Free button, gave energy as well

[indigo token]

why cant we have that with blade rush and KS

[vivid vessel]

Br 💀

[frail veldt]

crazy thought

what if

fatal flourish

procecd more

at low energy

is that too cooked?

actually it is

how about

just make FF not so rng

[fathom bramble]

what if FF was removed from the game

[vivid vessel]

Ain't no way bro invented bad luck protection (fire mage only)

[fathom bramble]

and we just had energy regen

[cosmic yoke]

Yeah I mean would you guys prefer 90% uptime or 50% uptime with stuff to do in the down time ?

I prefer high uptime

[cinder relic]

50%

[frail veldt]

doesnt really matter as long as the non adr time isnt boring af

idc tbh

[fathom bramble]

there are so many other factors around it that I can't really say

[frail veldt]

but if non adr is boring

then

[fathom bramble]

50% uptime is obviosuly stronger

[frail veldt]

that sucks

[cinder relic]

With the way restless blades work, I feel less issues pop up when the spec is expected to be 50% ar uptime rather than 90%

[frail veldt]

idk about obviously

thats pretty debateable

[fathom bramble]

the less flat your profile is and the more opportunities you have to accept downtime without getting gutted the better you will be in realistic encounters

[frail veldt]

yeah but tuning can be tuning

[indigo token]

if they do want to go back to that uptime, they have to make the spec feel better somehow with that

[cinder relic]

Yes, obviously?

[frail veldt]

like uptime classes arent just inherently worse

frost dk...

[fathom bramble]

sure, but if the answer is always "tuning can be tuning" than nothing is stronger or better mechanically ever

which we know to just not be true

[solid kelp]

miss the time when generators did some damage tbh

[frail veldt]

yes we know that sub has the best profile in the game arguably

[indigo token]

no I know you know, I just think that, im not sure how they would do it with outlaw as it is now, with how it was in bfa

[cinder relic]

If you think I'm just saying "take current outlaw, and remove 50% of its AR uptime and no other changes" you must think I'm really stupid

[cosmic yoke]

I dunno I think outlaw feels more unique with it gunning for max uptime I feel like a lot of specs have 50%ish uptime

[frail veldt]

it can almost freely move its damage around however it wants

well when it had dust it could more

now less so

[indigo token]

like they didn't have the extra cp back then, or uhuh, or any of the other new talents we have to work with

[cinder relic]

I'm not sure, I'm not a game designer, there are a million things that can be done to the spec to make it feel better outside of Cds

I mean I don't think anybody was thinking about the concept of crackshot, when crackshot got revealed

They will cook up something fun

[indigo token]

this is kind of related

[frail veldt]

it might be better for the spec overall but I am worried that they lower the skill ceiling from a personal perspective

[indigo token]

but did people fuck with empowered sindragosa

[frail veldt]

but thats just my biased opinion

[indigo token]

in the 11.2 beta

[cinder relic]

most ppl didnt like it, no

[indigo token]

oh my god

nightmare

[fathom bramble]

it might suck, but at the same time maybe a wow spec shouldn't have this unreachable skill cap and insane skill floor idk

[indigo token]

empowered blade rush

[fathom bramble]

it's fun for me, but like

[indigo token]

you spin more, the more you charge it

[fathom bramble]

I don't think blizzard intended this

[cinder relic]

I mean sub and Outlaw have always existed in this design space, I really doubt they turn all 3 rogue specs into sin rogue in terms of complexity

Obtuseness has sort of been a rogue staple for literal decades at this point

[fathom bramble]

current sub has some of the worst dps optimizations I have ever seen in my entire life

[cinder relic]

[fathom bramble]

don't press instant damaging finishers for 20 seconds should never be a thing

[cosmic yoke]

Honestly their end solution might be making it so the median player can hit 90-100 uptime easier which would involve good players having well over that

[cinder relic]

I love current sub rogue so much

[unreal drum]

does crippling work on araz myth and is it worth?

[cinder relic]

yes and yes

[unreal drum]

tyty

[cinder relic]

well over 100%

[fathom bramble]

current sub gave me a familiar feeling I couldn't quite put my finger on for the first bit of dim prog

and then I realized it felt like leveling in poe

[cinder relic]

I genuinely don't remember playing a spec on prog I had more fun with than current sub rogue honestly

[indigo token]

no dude

its like starfall

it doesnt stack but you get more energy gen

[fathom bramble]

it was kind of freeing to just not need to care about literally anything

and just pressing CDs on CD to deal infinite free damage

[vivid vessel]

But when your profile is less flat but you have no way of controlling when you do damage it's even worse tho

[fathom bramble]

but it's just not fun

[indigo token]

it would be the worst spec design in human history

[random stirrup]

Not pressing buttons and being able to stack damage while doing nothing is so fun though

[vivid vessel]

What I remember recently is brakenhide

Last boss

Right

[indigo token]

that was last expansion

[vivid vessel]

You have to kill the things

Back then we had 60% ADR or smth idk

So half the times you did nothing to the totems

With current outlaw you always do the same damage and you can even hold vanish for it

[fathom bramble]

true

[vivid vessel]

Obviously

I know what you are going to say lok

[fathom bramble]

but a lot of the issues that come from an unflat profile for us would just be that ADR cd is somewhat randomized

[vivid vessel]

There is an easy solution to that

[fathom bramble]

which is why we always have needed and will need 2 charges of AR

[vivid vessel]

[fathom bramble]

like a 40% ar uptime(with appropriate energy economy adjustments) with 2 charges is the dream

[indigo token]

im sad that the design of WoW doesn't support flat damage specs like FFXIV does

[mighty pivot]

what if you have 3 charges of AR but if your AR drops and you have no charges ready you die from a heart attack (in game)

[indigo token]

surrender to madness 2

[cinder relic]

I mean fury is really strong rn and its very flat

[indigo token]

thats because its tier bonus has uncapped aoe

[cinder relic]

even in raid tho its very strong

[indigo token]

with a super high proc rate

that's probably down to how its not a lot of rng

im not sure actually

im an arms main

[cinder relic]

Also ur specific statement was "wow doesn't support flat damage" when one of the hero classes (after the bug fix buff) is fury warrior which is mega flat

[fathom bramble]

a spec being strong while flat in 1 specific raid does not mean being flat is strong

[indigo token]

yeah

i mean I dont think fury was meta or even particularly strong in lou

[fathom bramble]

yes tuning and other mechanics can overcome being flat

this will always be the case

[vivid vessel]

Also fury isn't even strong this tier isn't it

[fathom bramble]

and so too will being flat always be a weakness to overcome

[indigo token]

and didnt it get nerfed after the RTWF on nerubar

[cinder relic]

Fury was bad early and then they bug fixed/buffed their tier set

[vivid vessel]

It wasn't played on any of the bosses

Hm

[cinder relic]

Fury got nerfed in nerbuar yeah

[vivid vessel]

No I mean this tier

[indigo token]

and it hit arms by proxy and we didnt get any compensatory buffs

[cinder relic]

Yeah this tier Fury was bad, their tier set got buffed/bug fixed and it became good

[mighty pivot]

the fix came in like a week after raid release no?

[cinder relic]

Multiple weeks, btu yes

This used to not scale with AOE or smthing and then it started scaling with aoe

[fathom bramble]

their version of BF now applies that chance on each enemy hit

is what they buffed

[indigo token]

uhh

no its not really like bf

[indigo token]

oh wait

yeah thats what you meant

[wintry solar]

It also helps they get dmg increases no?

[indigo token]

sorry I thought you were calling Reap The Storm their blade flurry

[cinder relic]

Before their balde flurry used to not proc the tier set

[indigo token]

you meant whirlwind

[fathom bramble]

sweeping strikes

[cinder relic]

Its funny cuz on PTR they said "no this is intended" and then they just changed their mind

[indigo token]

fury doesn't have sweeping strikes?

[cinder relic]

and then fury got way better

[random stirrup]

we played fury on every fight and I don't think its particularly strong. its good on some of the early fights in spite of its damage profile not because of it

[indigo token]

that's arms

[fathom bramble]

I thought they were both called sweeping strikes idk

[cinder relic]

I think fury was solid on forgeweaver just for pillar damage honestly

Buffs helped a lot not be a burden on the adds that spawned

[indigo token]

also

off topic

[cinder relic]

But by the time they bug fixed it they made forgeweaver a 5 pull boss lol

[indigo token]

but can we get outlines for frontals

please

we got them for swirlies

[fathom bramble]

yeah it's called improved whirlwind instead idk

[wintry solar]

I thought it was a red cone

With the edges a deeper solid red

[indigo token]

nah i mean like

you know the frontal on the first boss of streets

[wintry solar]

Oh I see

[indigo token]

i want that to have an outline

[wintry solar]

Yeah

[vivid vessel]

we aint there yet

[wintry solar]

We gotta delete rtb for the forumites first

[fathom bramble]

delete RTB, change vanish back to utility only, merge BTE and dispatch

then we are like halfway to being fury warr

[wintry solar]

Combat

[fathom bramble]

where you just press like 4 things ever

[delicate seal]

fury is just so strong st

while still doing good aoe

does like 1m+ more st in m+

while doing similar/more aoe

[wintry solar]

Take vanish off RB and use it for the shitter ambush like days of old

"Rotational" btw

What a joke

[fathom bramble]

the first time vanish was a strong dps cooldown for outlaw/combat was almost 9 years ago

that's basically the days of old now