outlaw

[fierce mulch]

just like the df "rework"

[orchid gale]

S4 SL Outlaw was insanely goated

[copper radish]

Double legendary. Bussy venth. Unstoppable

[torpid fiber]

also kyrian dust was a goated build

That shit was crack

[copper radish]

Yeah that was fun too. We had VARIETY

[wintry solar]

They made it clear it was a talent revamp. But it did iron out some problems at the time.

[copper radish]

Now we have KIR and fk everything else

[wintry solar]

Like, a way to keep adr between packs.

[copper radish]

Just want a lil variety over here. Hell my BM I can do like 5 diff specs and they all perform similar and have diff rotation feels

[wintry solar]

Apparently that was a big enough issue to warrant giving us the worst talent in Outlaw history but w/e. It works ig.

Not without huge caveats

[copper radish]

Can we address the fact outlaw uses ambush a dagger ability

[wintry solar]

No

I think we should address people not liking ambush even if it werent expensive to make good

What is the logic behind that?

[copper radish]

Here’s outlaw rework for midnight “KIR builds now use ambush” done deal

[wintry solar]

HO should be baked into Ambush idk

But its been with outlaw since day 1

Back in 04

[copper radish]

Yeah. Combat daggers ambush

About to make a comeback for midnight

[wintry solar]

Dagger ambush hasn't been a thing in well over 10 years

I think enough time has passed to be able to not call it a "dagger ability"

[copper radish]

Sin still has it

[wintry solar]

Sin can't equip 1h anyways

[copper radish]

But they can still ambush

[wintry solar]

You can ambush with a dagger in your mh as Outlaw

[copper radish]

Outlaw daggers for midnight confirmed

[wintry solar]

I think moggable maybe

But God I hope not actual daggers

[copper radish]

Nah baked into the build with some talent that passively buffs when u using daggers

[wintry solar]

And make daggers better with 1hs crowding the Outlaw loot table?

No ty

[copper radish]

Yes. Cause they gonna give us a legendary dagger set again

[wintry solar]

U rn

[copper radish]

That was last night I think

[wintry solar]

They gotta make an agility polearm legendary

[copper radish]

Yeah for new DH spec

[spare dome]

SC/HO outlaw is peak gemplay btw

[wintry solar]

Preach

[copper radish]

And then outlaw is gonna be mid range 2H and we steal it from DHs

[spare dome]

You roll for 5 buffs

[wintry solar]

Now you just sayin shit

[spare dome]

and spam ambush in stealth

as god intented

[wintry solar]

Back to back 5 rolls were goated

It's only flaw was KS

[spare dome]

s2 tierset my beloved

[wintry solar]

I hope they don't touch RtB in Midnight

Touch everything else

Not RtB

[spare dome]

I think they will

[copper radish]

What tier bonuses from TWW do yall think become outlaw apex talents

[spare dome]

since people always say

that outlaw is unplayable cos of RTB

[copper radish]

I think fatebound 2 set becomes an apex talent

[wintry solar]

Your apex talent buffs a spec ability

[fierce mulch]

they have to change bones if they kill weakauras, how are you going to track the basket?

[wintry solar]

There's no telling what it could be

[spare dome]

apex blade rush

[copper radish]

I miss blade rush

[copper radish]

Apex makes it uncapped and it also uncapps flurry

[hasty warren]

when MfD return

[spare dome]

br is already uncapped

i think

[wintry solar]

It's already uncapped

[severe drift]

ye

[copper radish]

Well then it’ll share its uncapped with flurry thru apex

“Blade rush makes flurry uncapped for its remaining duration” some bs like that

[wintry solar]

We need short CDs on a charge that are off restless blades

Just soft capping won't do anything too much

[old gull]

Designing the spec around 90%+ uptime on adr is just kind of a weird problem on a lot of fights and content

[wintry solar]

It really is

[severe drift]

we should be able to have 100% adr uptime imho

[wintry solar]

Frankly I'm surprised it took this long to get this bad

[spare dome]

maintaining buffs is fine when you can quickly get them back up

[wintry solar]

Why?

[severe drift]

cuz it would feel less clunky

losing half your dps cuz smh you had 2 bad rolls isn't fun for anyone

[wintry solar]

Honest question, when did you start playing outlaw?

[severe drift]

since DF S1

[wintry solar]

Then you should know 100% adr uptime wouldn't fix anything

[severe drift]

did I say it would fix everything tho ?

[wintry solar]

When adr uptime is lower, you get compensated for more energy out of adr

Did I say you said it would fix everything?

I said anything

[severe drift]

it would fix feeling

I mean when youi play outlaw rogue it's, I guess, to mash some buttons

during S3 DF, it was actually fun to have 100% adr uptime

[copper radish]

We used to never need adr 100% 😭

[severe drift]

Ikr

[wintry solar]

He sees that as a bad thing

Pay attention

[severe drift]

true, I like apm

[wintry solar]

Wasn't uptime back then like 80%?

70?

[jolly geyser]

just make the spec work without adr

[proven ocean]

90% bozo

Ur both cooked

[keen belfry]

I mean isn’t he just saying that we should feel like we are in AR the whole time? I agree with that

[wintry solar]

I misremembered, chill

[copper radish]

Okay sin player 😭

[proven ocean]

Played outlaw more than you’ll ever do in ur life noob

💀

[indigo token]

[copper radish]

😂

[devout garden]

[proven ocean]

Perma ar is good we discussed this before with zac

Ar needs x2 charges

And remove improved ar

[wintry solar]

Nah

[proven ocean]

To not cast it randomly on cd

Dont nah me u dont even play rogue popo

[copper radish]

How does that solve anything lol

[wintry solar]

You don't even play outlaw

[keen belfry]

I still think AR energy/gcd etc should be baseline, and pressing ar makes us just do more dmg but we’d have lower uptime on AR (the dmg buff rework in my head)

[proven ocean]

it makes outlaw not lose ar uptime wdym

Due to rng

[keen belfry]

Banking a charge for downtime, rng, etc

[wintry solar]

Atp just remove it and give outlaw baseline 0.8 gcd

[copper radish]

How bout we rework it so we don’t rely on ADR uptime

[keen belfry]

I agree too

[wintry solar]

Over complicating things for no reason with extra charges of a buff that's already almost 100%

[proven ocean]

Popo ur microwaved no cappy

[copper radish]

Blizz doesn’t want us tracking buffs no way they go the route of keeping 100% uptime in adr

[severe drift]

I mean, having AR the way it is isn't bad as it forces you to actually handle your AR uptime. All I say is If everything is done right, but you still loses AR due to random rolls, then it sux hard. Having AR regen and GCD as base isn't that good imo

[keen belfry]

I don’t think another charge overcomplicates much lol

[wintry solar]

Why have it at all when it's up so much

Just make it perma passive

[proven ocean]

Guys

Someone msg realz

[keen belfry]

Save a charge for downtime

[proven ocean]

Popo cant handle 2 charges of anything in the game

Too complicated

[wintry solar]

Zeross really killed the mood

[proven ocean]

Ur perma trolling popo

[wintry solar]

How

[jolly geyser]

just make the spec work without adr

[copper radish]

Can we still @ him here or is that frowned upon

[proven ocean]

U ego asked him when did he start playing outlaw and his opinions are valid and good

[indigo token]

can we have the old pfp back popo

[proven ocean]

No u cant

[indigo token]

it was really good

[keen belfry]

I just think:

outlaw should function as if you have AR up the whole time

Can then make AR a more dps esque cooldown (still make it an uptime spec don’t change that)

AR only feels bad when you don’t have it, you don’t notice you DO have it which is bad IMO

[copper radish]

Can u get his cell # I’ll call him real quick

[wintry solar]

I didn't ego ask him, I asked him to see if he knew what outlaw was like before adr uptime was high.

[copper radish]

Just post the number in here it’s all good

[wintry solar]

Yeah I'm not feeling this one

[proven ocean]

Doesn’t matter it got reworked in df alpha

It needs improved ar removed and double charge ar

Nothing complicated

[wintry solar]

I meant no disrespect @severe drift

[proven ocean]

Perma ar is dogshit

And doesn’t punish bad gameplay

Double ar covers bad rng

[severe drift]

I did understand. But it all' of a sudden becomes keyboard face rolling class tho.

[keen belfry]

Tuned around 95% AR is quite limiting

[keen belfry]

Naw outlaw still has a bunch going on to make it not face roll

[severe drift]

This

[proven ocean]

U dont notice ar when u do have it wdym

[keen belfry]

You notice you pressing AR?

[proven ocean]

U dont know if ar is up or not

[keen belfry]

I only notice when I don’t have to buff

[proven ocean]

Ofc i do what

[keen belfry]

You know what I mean zeross

Of course I know if I have the buff

[wintry solar]

I'm glad blizz is cooking and not us. We'd never get anything done lol.

[proven ocean]

No i dont its literally 0.8 gcd vs 1.00

[proven ocean]

@vivid vessel nah cuh

Zac

U never notice if ar is up right

[keen belfry]

Yes and if you’re 95% AR, 95% of the time feels normal and you only feel the 5%

[proven ocean]

Awang do u have ur gcd tracked on ur WAs?

[wintry solar]

Which one?

[copper radish]

Second AR falls off outlaw feels like dog shit

[severe drift]

Do you have a link of them saying they're cooking anything ? I couldn't find anything about it

[keen belfry]

You know what I’m saying zeross

[proven ocean]

I literally dont

[junior coral]

I know what your say =p

[keen belfry]

I forget youre fried man

[proven ocean]

Idk what u mean by idk how it feels when ar is up

[keen belfry]

Idk how to explain then

[proven ocean]

U literally pump faster

bruh

[keen belfry]

Yes but that’s just baseline how the spec feels at this point

[junior coral]

He’s saying if you have ar up 95% it just feels baseline… and the only time you notice it is when it’s not up

[wintry solar]

It was in 2 seperate interviews where they said outlaw had too much going on. That's pretty much all they said. One was with Ion talking about addons and the other was during the midnight showcase. I don't have links on me atm.

[proven ocean]

Its like saying idk how it feels to be in sub cds when u press everything in 15 seconds

[keen belfry]

Loktark or Zac described it better than me but they said basically the same thing

[proven ocean]

But i know how it feels to press backstab every 10 seconds

[keen belfry]

Now imagine you are in shadow dance for 95% of the fight

[severe drift]

I guess what awang is saying is you wouldnt have to worry about AR if it was just baseline instead. It would surely fixes AR uptime, but wouldnt ounish bad gameplay, which is important aswell

[proven ocean]

Like i dont get ur point

[proven ocean]

Ye but u do feel shadowdance tho

[severe drift]

Fair enough, will check it out, thank you

[jolly geyser]

AR is useless button since it doesnt feel like anything since its always up(mostly)

[wintry solar]

Yw

[proven ocean]

I even feel deathmark as little of an impact it may be unless its bleed build

[copper radish]

How bout outlaw just does better than avg dps without ADR so when we do lose it we don’t feel like dog shit

[keen belfry]

Yes, obviously it would be tuned different. But if you are perma shadow dance you would stop “feeling” shadow dance and that would simply just be how the spec plays. You’d then only think about the 5% no shadow dance part

[vivid vessel]

You wanna be in the outlaw EU neighborhood @proven ocean ?

[proven ocean]

Ye cub

[wintry solar]

If it were one time I wouldn't think about it but it happened twice.

[proven ocean]

Cuh

[wintry solar]

Which is sketch

[vivid vessel]

Ok I keep you a spot

[keen belfry]

Why didn’t Zac invite me to EU neighborhood

[vivid vessel]

You aren't EU

[keen belfry]

So what

[vivid vessel]

Also only the goats are allowed

So not you

Cuh

[keen belfry]

Just save me a plot of land

[proven ocean]

[severe drift]

Kind of became pessimistic with blizz statements on outlaw

[wintry solar]

That's normal these days

[keen belfry]

@vivid vessel

[jolly geyser]

Just be negative and be suprised

[wintry solar]

That's the plan B)

I'm gonna be so hyped

[severe drift]

If it could happen before the end of the trilogy, that'd also be great

[indigo token]

the screaming cat one

[wintry solar]

Okie dokie

[copper radish]

So outlaw will be good within the next 4 years. Sounds good to me

[slate forge]

Ks rework was a warning only more bad to come

[wintry solar]

This one?

[severe drift]

I wanna cry

[wintry solar]

Realz said that it's a button you wouldn't want to press on CD so maybe he was foreshadowing.

[severe drift]

I'll too unlock the new outlaw pack leader spec

[copper radish]

It’s uncapped aoe too you’ll have a blast

[keen belfry]

Isn’t it crazy that they reworked a spell and it’s as bad if not worse than the version that killed you

[copper radish]

Bro cooked a cooked finisher for us 😭

[vivid vessel]

Ye it's crazy bro

(blizzard devs)

[wintry solar]

If they make it prio I'll forgive everything else about it low-key ngl

Frfr

[indigo token]

hooray

[copper radish]

I wish I could send KS and pray for my life again

[indigo token]

why is that kitten so upset

[severe drift]

What's bad with KS rework?

[wintry solar]

[wintry solar]

He hongry

[copper radish]

Cause that’s how Popo is everyday of life about outlaw

[wintry solar]

No no

Yes but no

[copper radish]

Yes yes yes

You SL craver u

[wintry solar]

I've made my stance clear

[wintry solar]

That's meeee :3

[copper radish]

I’ll see u in 10 years for SL classic

[wintry solar]

10-4

[severe drift]

I've lasted 2 days on SL till I quit

[wintry solar]

Missed out on peak Outlaw

[copper radish]

??? Best xpack of all time

[wintry solar]

Everything since then has been okay at best

[hardy thicket]

[proven ocean]

@vivid vessel @tough salmon NEW PRISM TECH

[indigo token]

[hardy thicket]

Some Outlaw iterations were really fun in SL ill give u that. But the expansion was one of the worst ever made

[proven ocean]

KEEP 18 stacks on m+

[copper radish]

Oh god here we go. What’s it unlock negative 10% DPS for outlaw

[proven ocean]

Invest before its too late

[severe drift]

This. horribos

[wintry solar]

I didn't mind the grinds except torghast.

Torghast was fun the 1st two times

[severe drift]

Torghast..

.. was fun?!

[wintry solar]

Third time came around and

[hardy thicket]

Covenant system total flop. Shard sets instead of tier. Effin' KORTHIA and The Maw. And must I remind you of how terribad Outlaw was in SFO before buffs came when tier was already dead

[wintry solar]

Yeah

[old gull]

If they make outlaw simple and low apm I’ll be so sad

[copper radish]

For rogues cause u could just stealth to the ends lol

[severe drift]

Lmao

[copper radish]

Idk I’m getting so old I can’t keep up with 1000 APM. Feels like my fingers gonna fall off

[wintry solar]

Most people liked torghast but nobody liked farming it. Which is 2 different things.

[severe drift]

Protips, play with your toes aswell

[wintry solar]

Foot pedals too

[fierce mulch]

true but remember how good subt was with the sepulcher tier? peak rogue gameplay

[wintry solar]

Simple possibly. Low apm I highly doubt.

[severe drift]

Make rogue great again

[wintry solar]

Let's not forget that just because your adr uptime is lower doesn't mean your apm is gutted. We've had medium uptime and still had a high apm

[old gull]

As long as I don’t get roasted for tank dmg single target in keys I’m good

[wintry solar]

I just believe the current energy tuning has people worried

[copper radish]

Pro tip is I’m a BM now and press 1,2,3 and shift R for bestial wrath when it’s off CD and do 20 mil DPs sustained

[severe drift]

Lmao

[vivid vessel]

Ye I know

Fuck that tho

Cba

[proven ocean]

?

u can stack everything

[copper radish]

Bro some tank the other day “omg im doing more dmg than the outlaw” made my goal by the end of the key to end up ontop on the overall then talked mad shit to the tank lol

[vivid vessel]

I know

[proven ocean]

like tazavesh

[vivid vessel]

It's cringe af tho

[proven ocean]

true but kinda op or

[vivid vessel]

Ye for sub or cd specs

For outlaw eh

Kinda whatever

[proven ocean]

ye outlaw is w.e but sub man sheesh no cappy cip cop cuh

[wintry solar]

I hope we can mog MH to daggers. I have that timewalking dagger I'll never be able to use.

[copper radish]

You could u know just play sub or sin

[wintry solar]

Ew wtf

God no

Don't ever say that to me again

[severe drift]

Bring back 2 Swords combo already. 1 dagger / 1 sword ruins my mog

[wintry solar]

Dude doesn't have cudgel

[vivid vessel]

Just equip a second sword then

[copper radish]

Psh daggers

[wintry solar]

Smh

Imagine not having cudgel tho

Simply have better rng

[copper radish]

Don’t listen to this guy he hasn’t even seen 1

[old gull]

It’s depressing how much easier assa is to get rating in PvP and all I think about is how I’d rather be playing outlaw

[wintry solar]

1 what

[wintry solar]

I killed boomy in a smoke bomb in 5 seconds with sub and I haven't played that spec since

Feels like cheating

[old gull]

Outlaw could do that for 3 whole days

[wintry solar]

I blame Van

Posting all those screenshots

[red zinc]

Does it not reset

on key start

[copper radish]

How’s it my fault pvp got nerfed for fatebound lol

[wintry solar]

You helped inflate the numbers

Smh

[copper radish]

Man all I did was let some coins flip on these baddies in pvp 😭

[red zinc]

poop vs piss

pvp

[copper radish]

Then everyone cried on the forums outlaw was broken cause coins were hitting for 3 mil in bursts

[old gull]

Nerf cheap shot so we can go back

[wintry solar]

Oh cool, an arcane surge normal.

Remember when outlaw was fun in all content?

[copper radish]

I just wish trickster shined during season 1 and now for ST

Always thought it was better fit for outlaw than this coin bs

[wintry solar]

I agree

[copper radish]

That’s why I suffered with trick all season 1. Not even worth it for ST now with tier

[frail veldt]

Ooo that's p sick. Wonder how it's gonna sound

[copper radish]

Outlaw style gonna sound like a 9mm every press

[frail veldt]

Agreed

Nerf cheap shot so rogue can be balanced in pvp

It's so overdue

[old gull]

Triple cheap and kidney whenever we want is why we can’t have bursty dmg

[copper radish]

But that’s rogues whole schtick

They gotta revamp rogue entirely if we wanna move from that lol

[worldly shale]

can we just do dmg pls

idc how

[vivid vessel]

I started using cheap shot in pve in S2 I kid you not

What a weird spell

Wasn't using it before really

Now I use it all the time cause I realized its just more efficient than kidney

[frail veldt]

It's the only spammable cc in the game that can be applied to multiple targets at once

[frail veldt]

Doesn't it have a longer gcd

[vivid vessel]

And kidneying in stealth is stupid

[vivid vessel]

Ok well

Kidneying in crackshot

[frail veldt]

I stopped using it cuz someone told me it was on adr

[vivid vessel]

I would rather use cheap

[frail veldt]

Well ye ofc tru

I guess that's worth the gcd

Should have enough overhead to not lose a global in crackshot

If you only chepashot once

Yeah it has no issues in pve tbh and giving it a cool down wouldn't even matter in pve

[frail veldt]

It's a bad schtick

And assa doesn't even use it

Nor does outlaw really

[old gull]

Idk I be donating cheap shots on Dr 🤣

[hardy thicket]

Anything but blind or kick im out

I havent used cheap shot since vanish and stealth were cool utility for rogue

[naive solar]

!oh

[ornate heath]

A dagger offhand is technically like 0.2% better than a slow weapon because it generates more Instant Poison procs. That is the only difference, Fatal Flourish proc rate is normalized to be unaffected by the change in attack speed. Note that item level or stats will matter more than this quirk, or you can simply use a slow weapon anyway for transmog.

[vivid vessel]

I legit want a redesign of rogue ccs

It's just so annoying

Remove cheap shot

Make kidney free

Idk

[frail veldt]

I think they just need to give aoe kidney for pve

Does sub still have it?

[vivid vessel]

What

You living under a rock or what

[frail veldt]

Guess so

Do they?

I didn't think so

[vivid vessel]

No they don't bro

You are cooked

[frail veldt]

Didn't they have it for a lil bit like in DF?

[vivid vessel]

I don't want AOE kidney tho

I want st ccs to not be dred

[frail veldt]

Yeah true a Dr redesign would go a LONG WAY in pve

[copper radish]

Can we go back to unique CCs instead of every spec having aoe stun lol

[chilly dagger]

Make gouge baseline

At least you get a cp

[copper radish]

What is gouge? Haven’t used that since mages complained about it in PvP

[dawn talon]

i think a redesign of how DR works + a new DR category

would go a long way

give some of the less desirable melees stronger cc

[vivid vessel]

Gouge is so annoying to use

Like you have legit 0 idea where the front of a mob is

Iwould rather not

[dawn talon]

so ranged comps have the strength of doing mechanics more easily and melees have the strength of doing harder/bigger pulls bc more cc

[vivid vessel]

Imo st ccs shouldn't dr

And act as kicks

And AOE ccs should be normal

Like it is rn

[dawn talon]

that would actually be a rly cool rogue specific thing

spellcasting lockout on all single target cc

[vivid vessel]

And maybe have a way to see on the plates wtf Dr is

[dawn talon]

after it ends

[vivid vessel]

Cause like

??

[dawn talon]

(in pve only)

[vivid vessel]

I have a weak aura to see dr but it's buggy

[dawn talon]

(that would be fucking deranged in pvp lol)

[vivid vessel]

And also why do I need a weak aura

[vivid vessel]

Ye sure

Idc about pvp

Make it different for pvp

[vivid vessel]

I feel like Drs are a thing for pvp anywya

And are completely failed design in pve

[tropic zephyr]

You don't like spending 7 CP for a kidney and then nothing happens?

[copper radish]

They should just give us something like 10 combo point finishers. That should fix things

[indigo token]

we always spend at 6 or 7 cp

67

https://tenor.com/view/67-6-7-six-seven-sixty-seven-scp-gif-3295527985440468649

[vivid vessel]

ye

i dont like the fact that if i dont kidney on pull

its basically useless

[red zinc]

Oh hell ye

Alpha next week

Oct 1 deep dive oct 2 alpha up

[glass mortar]

feel like a very quick fix is just making it so aoe and ST cc doesnt DR at all in pve

but they need to look at the entire way cc is structured in m+

its gone down this route and some classes have just been left behind

[copper radish]

Outlaw first 6 7 ever

[dawn talon]

and ps is basically a switch... many 67 connections to think about.

[agile orchid]

Next week we’ll cry

[timid portal]

maybe some buffs on midnight alpha tests

[harsh quartz]

raidbots sims never say to use different color gems for the crit effect on the diamond

is that normal or just a problem with raidbots?

[gaunt phoenix]

You have to force it

it wont do both

[indigo token]

imagine we just turn into an echo fighter of ret pally

[remote dragon]

Can somebody tell me how the other guy got double dmg of fated coin? Is it just pure rng or im doing something wrong?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/compare/1aP7HtAQwZMc2CyJ/XG3tp4kBKN18xvVy?fight=11%2C17&type=summary&source=4%2CHuhyunjin

[copper radish]

Whose got the alpha leaks

[timid portal]

are u using the coin cool feature?

[remote dragon]

No idea what that is

[tropic zephyr]

Mara has no kidney

Just sayin

[timid portal]

go to pinned messages

[gaunt phoenix]

This is just luck

They are barely doing the coin tech

where you vanish into ghostly strike for coins

[remote dragon]

Yeah i wondered the same...since I saw he rarely used GS + AR from stealth

[vivid vessel]

ok imma say it

raid renown is trash

why do i have to do a random raid before i go into mythic raid

to get the renown

it was way better when we had the currency and could buy the thing righ away cause you had some banked

this system is so shit

[ashen void]

does the squeaky bat toy cancel stealth as a trinket use would?

[gaunt phoenix]

yep

garbage

[vivid vessel]

how did these devs

thought this out

so guys

they are going to raid right

and AFTER

finishing the raid

they get a damage buff

for the raid

are they stupid or hwat

[fervent garden]

haha. sounds logical

[copper radish]

It’s so u can think about how much more dmg you’ll do in a week I guess

[gaunt phoenix]

alpha is in a week? ok

You know rogue wont be in the first iteration

[copper radish]

$20 rogue updates not until a month into beta

[vivid vessel]

doesnt matter anywya

it wont get iterated on

so

first or not

doesnt change anything

[thorny zinc]

wth thats me

[frail veldt]

its insane

they should have just kept the system

[remote dragon]

I just compared with most similiar player...great deps man 😄

[frail veldt]

where the boss hp and damage is nerfed

idk what was wrong with that

this new system is tedious and stupid

[old gull]

Tuning tn surely

[frail veldt]

nah

[ashen void]

bro i macroed the squeaky toy to my abilities for apm memes and it apparently was breaking me out of stealth and not granting me subterfuge when it did it (this was ho)

[old gull]

[ashen void]

no wonder outlaw has felt so bad

[vivid vessel]

you didnt notice?

[ashen void]

I did but had no idea what was doing it

squeaky toy

i forgot that i even macro it honestly

i did it so long ago

[cinder relic]

Rogue was one of the first talent trees, which people hated, it was also one of the last legendaries/covenants, which people also hated

[west ridge]

iirc people hated the fact that the talent trees did not really receive any huge changes on alpha beta compared to others

like it was cool to see the talent trees but then it felt like our talent trees were in alpha compared to everyone else

[open condor]

blizzard hate rogue

[red zinc]

You think if we fill the q&a thread with questions about rogue that they answer any of them?

[west ridge]

same thing in SL alpha beta, it felt like rogue was in alpga compared to everyone else

[red zinc]

You mean hero talents?

[open condor]

all we got was auto tea and it was in .0.5 patch xD

[vivid vessel]

we hated it because it got 0 iterations lol

[copper radish]

Diff xpack

[vivid vessel]

not because it was first

[proven ocean]

?

WHAT

[copper radish]

Bring back restless crew 2026

[proven ocean]

we weren't even one of the first hero talents

[red zinc]

No i mean cause the df talents we were close to last also

[proven ocean]

LOL

we got released 2nd to last

[cinder relic]

Nah DF talent trees

[vivid vessel]

df rework we were early

i remmeber

[proven ocean]

thought he meant hero talents

df talents were fine

[west ridge]

there were no iterations and the rework was like 2 major patches late

[vivid vessel]

im talking about the drop of the reworked talent

which ye

0 iterations

but were early

then they dropped the reowrk

which also got 0 iterations

then they dropped hero talents

which got 0 iterations

then they dropped ks reowrk

whcih

it got 0 iterations

hm

sensing a patern rn

[west ridge]

slightly exaggerated but ye i agree overall with your point

[vivid vessel]

is it

exagerated

[jolly geyser]

not really

[west ridge]

is it exaggerated or exagerated

[jolly geyser]

no idea

[vivid vessel]

wtf

same words no

this guy trying to trick me or what

[cinder relic]

Initial rogue talent tree was a bit rough

This was it initially

[hollow bloom]

Rogue has been ignored or sidelined for years. Even in SoD.

[cinder relic]

A lot less utility and flexability

[copper radish]

What were they even thinking with this 😂

[cinder relic]

Sub one for example

Outlaw one as well

[random stirrup]

🤢

[cinder relic]

More getting at being first or last I don't think exempts it from being a good or bad set of changes xd

[copper radish]

Imagine going KIR with that tree 😂

[cinder relic]

Well, U did

In s2

and pre nerfs

When kir was like a 4min cd

[red zinc]

Its just copium reasons being made up

[copper radish]

I may have only played HO back then lol

[red zinc]

Theyve just put rogue on maintenance mode

[jolly geyser]

I have played all non kir builds untill this season

[copper radish]

So alpha oct 2. Outlaw rework 2026 sometime?

[jolly geyser]

dont get your hopes up

[red zinc]

alpha will not include rogue rework

can quote me on that

id rather get memed than see the turbodoom if its not there

[proven ocean]

honestly this is way better than the one we have in live rn

[red zinc]

I am curious to see the new hero talents especially though

[proven ocean]

@vivid vessel

thoughts

on my opinion

?

[jolly geyser]

some giga talent or some shit

[red zinc]

what are the odds that the new hero talent nodes are just the tier sets from this season + 1 utility

[vivid vessel]

cooked

like hard cooked

[red zinc]

Ye thats apex talent

[proven ocean]

no

[red zinc]

Different thing

[vivid vessel]

i dont think you rememmeber lol

its fine

[proven ocean]

we had acro and dance u dont have to hold for x2 vanish

[vivid vessel]

you are just cooked

[proven ocean]

i dont think u remmeber either

[desert tendon]

Zeross

[jolly geyser]

ah ape sex

[proven ocean]

we had +3 range

noob

[desert tendon]

zac want to be your neighbour

like right next to you

[vivid vessel]

btw im doing a normal run raid rn

and im getting gapped

thoughts

[proven ocean]

zac,...

we had acro..

[red zinc]

get guud

[proven ocean]

no cappy

[vivid vessel]

ye ok thats different tho

[desert tendon]

Zac you re the only outlaw i dont see toping damage

[proven ocean]

Censi - #1 Ramfam fan

— 9:09 PM
Zac you re the only outlaw i dont see toping damage

[desert tendon]

Just saying just saying

[vivid vessel]

what outlaw are you even watching bero

[desert tendon]

none

[vivid vessel]

there is me and wox

[red zinc]

Instead of acro 3 yards, zeross has to stay away 3 yards from women

[vivid vessel]

[desert tendon]

cuz noone play this trash spec

[teal garnet]

I mean in normal, any kinda burst cleave is just gonna pad harder

[desert tendon]

That s a bit too complex for zac to understand

Should use easier wording

[cinder relic]

It literally isnt

[red zinc]

Depends on boss

cd burst specs suck ass on normal fights with multiple add waves

[stiff vector]

ye when I was gearing my hunter this week I was like..giga gapping ppl with better gear than me @ like 705ilvl. Including many like 712+ outlaws, I felt bad

[teal garnet]

I mean in normal

you are maybe getting 1 set of adds anyways

[proven ocean]

@vivid vessel it had er bug and acro...

and leech was 12%...

no cappy..

[grave carbon]

I keep seeing wox getting gapped by his hunter on tiktok lmao

[desert tendon]

er bug my beloved.... wait what? Is it gone?

[red zinc]

And the leech still didnt work

[proven ocean]

?

it did noob

its just the stealth one that never functioned

[desert tendon]

The leech was working IF you reactivated SND after getting the dice

if we re talking about that one

[proven ocean]

actually it didnt even exist

[desert tendon]

or something like that

[stiff vector]

I still think its funny they nerfed leeching poison by like 50% for absolutely no reason at all when rogue has some of the lowest self healing. Meanwhile...look at fury warr or DH or something and theyre giga leeching and self healing

[desert tendon]

i dont remember dude, it was 52 years ago

[proven ocean]

timmy is just yapping out of his head

[desert tendon]

Do you mean Tiem is trying to be like you?

[red zinc]

I mean

You got the stat

But leech itself didnt really do much idk

[cinder relic]

thats recoup and it wasn't leech

gain x% life every 2 seconds while SND is active

[copper radish]

Reroll BM and enjoy the damage till outlaw rework

My 695 BM already gapping my 712 outlaw

[tough salmon]

I need to get a prism first ...

[frank finch]

What’s the tech

Omg midnight alpha

The nightmare is almost over

[untold yarrow]

!haste

[ornate heath]

A properly geared Outlaw's stat volume will look like Vers > Haste* > Crit > Mastery.

*But Haste has a **requirement ** because Adrenaline Rush scales your GCD based on haste, up to 25%.

The KIR build wants ~19% haste from rating, so it becomes 25% after Alacrity. 18% or 20% is close enough and not a problem. Don't play KIR with lower than 18% haste.

The HO build gets Take 'em by Surprise, so its haste requirement is technically ~9%., but it continues to want haste just for energy. You will likely optimize towards 14-18% haste, not a strict number, just sim.

You need to use Raidbots Top Gear to determine what haste pieces to use. You can also get ~4.2% haste from a flask. This can be equal or better than Vers flask if you need it for either build.

[daring oxide]

[vivid vessel]

noob doesnt even have prism ..

[buoyant cosmos]

Have you been using it in keys?

[vivid vessel]

no

its less prio damage

less st

[west ridge]

so whats the tech @proven ocean

prism thingy

[vivid vessel]

you go out

come back when timer is finished

[west ridge]

oh that

[vivid vessel]

i mean this has been a thing forever

for like

basically everything in the game

[west ridge]

ya cba

[vivid vessel]

cause blizzard are incompetent

as far as i know enhancers can still prestack doing that aswell

[red zinc]

wait it resets on bubble end not key start?

[vivid vessel]

ye lol

which is most things

btw

[red zinc]

KLASSIK

[frail veldt]

its just every outlaw not doing +19s

[vivid vessel]

you can keep full supercharger

also

[vivid vessel]

thats so untrue

but ok

[frail veldt]

Im just saying its easier to compete in overlal in lower keys as outlaw

[west ridge]

actually nvm i can be asked

[frank finch]

so its only just an extra 18 stacks , i thought u kept 18 the whole run

[west ridge]

i did the slice and dice thing back in DF

[vivid vessel]

18 stacks

full supercharger

full sht prolly

[gaunt phoenix]

banger first pull

[vivid vessel]

ub procs goes away tho

you rpolly jkeep rtb aswell

and kir reset

or maybe rtb is removed on key actually

ye

would be so simple to not allow people to go out during the bubble btw

[frail veldt]

also prob cuz the other outlaws are only sharing when they win on meters and you are sharing more when you lose on meters haha

[vivid vessel]

idk why this shit is still a thing

[vivid vessel]

I never win on meters anymore trho ?

not a single key

and im 5ilvl ahead

[frail veldt]

Yeah but your overall isnt bad

your group is just better

[vivid vessel]

ok xd

[frail veldt]

than what most other people play with

which is rando lfg fotm BM rerollers

[severe drift]

lots of dk

[frail veldt]

I mean you had the same conclusion after one of max's last meters posts haha

where he gapped both the feral and war in his group

[keen belfry]

have u heard of awangawangaw

hes from NA

(north america)

[wintry solar]

His name is Awang because be has a wang

[gaunt phoenix]

proof ?

[wintry solar]

C=3

[silent palm]

!wa

[ornate heath]

Class packs:

• Guy's - Afenar's Edit Luxthos Edit
• Zac's Group Devlin
  Utilities:
• Combo Point Standalone
• Last GCD in Crackshot window / Subterfuge timer
• Ace refund sound trigger
• RtB buffs tracker (shows normal, CTO, and KIR'd buffs)
• Unseen Blade tracker
  Fun:
• Ace max combo counter and Ace current combo counter

[glass timber]

Whats an average sim with the HO build ST?

Mines 3.88, and I feel it's super low?
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/brKNM89RpmzT2wYkbQdVJP

[gaunt phoenix]

if I turn off all buffs, i'm at 4.2m as KIR

3.88 is... 8% behind? that's not totally unexpected i guess

Your talents are slightly off i think

2 vigor and no lethality

[glass timber]

yeah i'd expect soemthing around that with HO, which im fine with, but, i still feel really low vs other classes, rogues might just be THAt bad rn?

[gaunt phoenix]

Well yeah outlaw ST is nothing special atm

with the normal build

[glass timber]

ah right, don't expect that to change alot tho

but ur right with the talent

[glass timber]

aight, i know it isn't the best of best, but in my raid group it seems like the worst of the worst lol

[hybrid crown]

I think our st sim is competetive with all other classes st sims it's not bad

Like middle of the pack right

[copper radish]

Outlaw ST is glorified tank dps lol

[hybrid crown]

Its trickster that's laughably bad

[glass timber]

idk, like everyone in my raid does more damage than me, like 4,2+
and i do very close to my simmed

[gaunt phoenix]

Our performance on Fractilus is below average

[copper radish]

Had a huge aoe pack in a PSF and tank was over me. Didn’t hear the end of it. Never letting that happen again 😂

[heavy mason]

I'm still doing far from perfect, but I picked up a bit and I'm doing much better now I was doing my coupe, RtB and Killing Spree wrong completely

[zealous lantern]

BAM BAM BAM

[timid portal]

[proven ocean]

@vivid vessel i just had the worst sub burst rng in history

6m dps

💀

what the welly

my dps went up to 7m after shadowblades ended 💀

[pure folio]

Is simming routes in expert mode accurate of our dps?

Seems lower

[gaunt phoenix]

as in matching details?

i don't think so as it will include downtime

[red zinc]

Glad to hear it, sorry for being so direct but not much to analyze sadly

[pure folio]

Yea

Is there any accurate way of comparing?

[red zinc]

luck is a skill

[pure folio]

My damage feels low in keys, average of like 8m

[red zinc]

get good

[vivid vessel]

@fathom bramble i never checked, but this was damage amp on last reclear nexus king

[fathom bramble]

looks about right

[brisk terrace]

Yo whats going on everyone. Learning outlaw and have a question I couldnt find in the Faq. When is the ideal time to send on use trinkets?

[fathom bramble]

I'm so sick of damage amp fights when burst is already inherently stronger in normal fights

[proven ocean]

ye but thats royal wing

[gaunt phoenix]

in general you just kinda slam them. Netherprism has some logic, but that's about the only one

[proven ocean]

ah below tank what the welly

[vivid vessel]

ye thats the damage amp

xd

[grave carbon]

Arcane is disgusting on that fight

[random stirrup]

Arcane kinda blasting there

Don’t think I’ve seen one that high

must be forcing dragon into execute fast

[quartz magnet]

whats the logic for prism?

[gaunt phoenix]

Generic rule is to send it with vanish after 4+ buffs are ticking

but it's not a huge deal to just slam it, can save it for pulls or what have you

[dawn talon]

the thing is

damage amps are just really fun for

well, literally everyone else

[quartz magnet]

i see

tyty

[frank finch]

we get our new cooldown next week

its ok

hold

[stuck sparrow]

Well its mostly outlaw

My sin sim is 5.4m and sub sim is 5m

oh wait disabled buffs

[proven ocean]

https://tenor.com/view/roomba-cat-gif-19926065

[copper radish]

Who will be our outlaw representative asking questions October 1 at 9am PST for the deep dive

[frank finch]

we just need someone with alpha access who will stream

so prolly not guy

prolly shin

[stuck sparrow]

This is just a weird season

where outlaw isnt better at anything

than the other two

[tropic zephyr]

he's halfway through the backrooms

imagine the pov of the guy seeing a floating cat on the roof tho

[vivid vessel]

how do people even parse araz bro this shit is so cringe

cant wait for this cringe boss to get yeeted

[frank finch]

u parse early

[vivid vessel]

its legit impossible

i cannot

[frank finch]

yea

[vivid vessel]

do any damage

[cinder relic]

Play in a worse guild

[keen belfry]

Hahahha what

[copper radish]

brewmaster >> outlaw 🤯

[chilly ember]

[craggy jay]

on a scale from 1 to Outlaw how difficult is Ky'veza on ?? for our crazy tuned spec?

[copper radish]

Outlaw

[fierce mulch]

pretty easy imo

[fathom bramble]

All I ever hear is complaining about “needing” to hold cds for them or hold damage to make peoples stuff line up

Maybe it’s correct for the wider wow audience, but that is not what I’m seeing in my local group

[vivid vessel]

@fathom bramble

i went on fractilus as trickster

💀

[keen belfry]

youre so washed man

[vivid vessel]

[keen belfry]

yo what did u just do to loom

[vivid vessel]

i killed him

guns and shit

[keen belfry]

yeah by why

6.7

[frank finch]

yea cuz we good on perma amp phases

aka fake amp phase

[vivid vessel]

no i just perma rolled 5

thats how it goes nowadays

like idk

just press rtb

[keen belfry]

thatll do it

s2 buff uptime

[fathom bramble]

It’s just that easy

[vivid vessel]

bro

im ngl

i hate

vanish gs

shit

its so cringe

i dont even wanna play fatebound

i hate fatebound more than i hate trickster

thats crazy

[fathom bramble]

It would be cooler if it was intended somehow and less jank

[vivid vessel]

idk

you have to desync one set

and it become super akward

idk

shit is cringe af

[fathom bramble]

Would be less cringe if ar had 2 charges 🙂

[keen belfry]

popo said ar 2 charges bad tho

so loktark

u are wrong.

[fathom bramble]

true

my bad

[keen belfry]

all good man

[stiff vector]

I actually hate fatebound way more this season than before, and definitely more than trickster

[copper radish]

He just said that cause Zeross suggested it

[keen belfry]

yeah

we have some contrarians in this disc

[fathom bramble]

I feel like we have literally always needed 2 charges of AR

[keen belfry]

then they will be a contrarian about you calling them a contrarian

[fathom bramble]

and rejecting it just means you aren't fully considering what it would do

[keen belfry]

[copper radish]

Midnight outlaw changes “adrenaline rush has been replaced with…..” what follows that

[keen belfry]

"it wouldnt even increase our AR uptime" ok and

[stiff vector]

although it definitely owuld increase our AR uptime lol

[vivid vessel]

maybe

idk

i kinda hate it rn

[fathom bramble]

yeah it would remove/mitigate the lows of losing it

[vivid vessel]

and i hate the fact taht im forced to vanish exactly on a gs

[keen belfry]

it would barely, but thats not even the point

[fathom bramble]

and have no effect on the highs where we have 100% already

[keen belfry]

yeah its a failsafe

[vivid vessel]

and in melee

[stiff vector]

it would help when im playing 1fth and im spamming SS 7x in a row and have rerolled shit buffs 3x in a row and somehow CTO isbarely proccing

having a 2nd adr charge would be nice then, to keep the spec actually functioning somewhat

the real prob is just the insanely cooked and nerfed energy economy of the spec outside of ADR

I mean hell, even during ADR sometimes when you arent getting opp procs/fatal flourish rng is kinda screwing you

[timid portal]

@fathom bramble maybe in midnight from apex talent we get 2nd charge

[runic parrot]

!prekey

[ornate heath]

Pre-key fuckery

• RTB TWICE some time before entering dungeon to get 4 Supercharger stacks. These stacks don't have a duration.
• Just before key placement use AR into KS to get Loaded Dice and 2 free Unseen Blade procs.
• KS will consume one stack of Supercharger but the 3rd+4th stack are removed when the key starts anyway.
• During the bubble, DO NOT RTB or recast AR as you will lose the CPs and Supercharger stacks when the bubble ends.
• After the bubble drops use RTB again (now back at 4 stacks of Supercharger).
• Before entering the first pack BF into Stealth.
• Open onto the pack with AR into BtE.

[keen belfry]

i cant tell if i want apex talents to fix some cringe shit we have (1fth, pc, rtb stuff, ar chargers) or introduce something new and cool

man i genuinely think making PC baseline, and +1 to rtb buffs would go so hard and be so simple

[dawn talon]

just get rid of pc entirely

imo

[fathom bramble]

there's a third option where the apex talents are bad enough that we can take 2fth PC in aoe

and just not take the final apex node

[dim falcon]

Can someone explain the macro to me
/cancelaura Stealth
/cast Adrenaline Rush
/cast Ghostly Strike

Is Cancelaura realy canceling the stealth? In guide it says you wanna go AR into GS from stealth... Am i wrong?

[keen belfry]

yeah, i just hope thats not the case

i simply just think they didnt design fth to ever be 1/2

no reasoning other than thats just what i think

[glass mortar]

the macro is to avoid a fatebound bug

its in the pins because its optimal

u can probably find info on the bug somewhere burried but it doesnt matter

[keen belfry]

i think perfect world for my rework we may get:

pc baseline
fth = 1 talent point now
GSW rework so it perma stacks and works with crackshot
apex nodes are RTB related increasing our buff uptime
mastery????
AR 2 charges

[glass mortar]

if ur in vanish the cancelaura doesnt do anything (it doesnt need to) if ur in stealth, it puts u into subterfuge so u dont bug out ur double coin thingy

[frail veldt]

Nah the bis apex talent

Ready for this

The BIS apex talent

Is

20yard range during crackshot

(I think this was solos idea)

2nd bis apex talent, uhuh activates after 5 seconds of no combat actions

aite 2nd one might not be as good a cook

[dim falcon]

but ist that the same as I would just press it?

[frail veldt]

but first one would be so good

[frail veldt]

nope

cuz bugs

[dim falcon]

yo wtf

[frail veldt]

welcome to outlaw

[keen belfry]

am i missing something why do we want this so bad

[glass mortar]

no

[frail veldt]

cuz we lost acro and its nice to not get cucked during your important windows

[dim falcon]

Because I watch my logs again and again and try to .. like understand whats my mistake.. > . > Cause my logs are so bad

[glass mortar]

it prevents the bug

press it

y wont see the bug

[frail veldt]

honestly

[glass mortar]

the bug is a bug

[frail veldt]

idgaf about random buff apex talents

I want my gameplay improved

[glass mortar]

u will just get slightly less coins while doing the same thing but not using this macro

[frail veldt]

random buffs just get washed out in tuning anyway

so its always irrelevant

the only thing that is reliable is gameplay improvements

[keen belfry]

40% uptime on acro sounds mid as an apex talent

[frail veldt]

its the only thing they wont randomly nerf for no reason

[frail veldt]

I said 20 yards lol

or 25 or whatever PS range is

[fathom bramble]

20

30 with the talent

[keen belfry]

whats diff between 10 yds and 100yds

or whatever acro is

[frail veldt]

gsw is cool but kinda irrelevant

[fathom bramble]

about 7 or 97

[frail veldt]

?

90 yards

[keen belfry]

yeah but like

you are either just outta melee range

or in range

right?

[frail veldt]

not really

no

[fathom bramble]

20/30 yards is a long distance

[frail veldt]

like dailcry aoe for example

acro wouldnt help yo uthere

20 yards would

or when theres two mobs

[fathom bramble]

and it's not uncommon that you would want to hit mobs outside normal melee range that are inside 20 yards

[frail veldt]

separated

you can use mouseover cleave stuff

[frank finch]

@vivid vessel are u getting fucked by not being able to log ur platform side or something

[frail veldt]

very useful

lots of uses for 20 yards range

would be very fun

imo

and would be a very apexy talent

GSW is passive damage

[vivid vessel]

no

[keen belfry]

im just confused cuz

40% uptime

[frank finch]

why is not mathcing ur details

[keen belfry]

apex talent could literally do nothing a lot of the time

[frail veldt]

well asking for perma 20 yards is silly

[keen belfry]

i mnot

[bright crane]

Hey Zac

[keen belfry]

im not

[frail veldt]

and we know we arent getting acro back

[bright crane]

Are you an Elvis fan

I always wondered

[frail veldt]

I think it would be a cool improvement to QoL as outlaw

maybe throw some damage elements in there

like during crackshot your pistol abilities explode on impact

for some uncapped aoe damage

like soft capped at 8

lots of great things they could do tbh

[keen belfry]

gimme qol in gsw, rtb, ar, etc

[frail veldt]

how is gsw qol?

im down for rtb/ar qol though

[vivid vessel]

@fathom bramble

my raid leader

saw this

[red zinc]

Just give me anything twin