Lacking in burst, and being capped, make Outlaw not great for high keys overall
#outlaw
drowsy ridge
gaunt phoenix
I mean outlaw is doing wf keys
fair oak
There is value is having damage all the time in keys and if you're pugging even bettet value that you're not losing damage to bad cd timings in keys, it's just that it's not very meaningful when there are 45s specs that do more at 7-8 targets than outlaw but idk if outlaw's damage is bad lol
stiff vector
like there is just legitiately 0 upside to outlaw at this point, you have no high roll capability, so rng is just a detriment at this point, you have no burst, youre the only hardcapped spec in the game but you dont even excel within your target cap, you have some of the worst ST and prio in the game etc. Both tuning and damage profile wise, the spec is just horrible, and its ENTIRELY a situation that blizzard constructed for themselves
pallid wraith
someone really need to apply for that class dev job opening fr
looking at all those solo posts earlier wish they would do that
slate forge
like there is just legitiately 0 upside to outlaw at this point, you have no hig...
They made it for us ain’t no way anyone at blizzard plays outlaw
stiff vector
o ye and ofc we have negative stat scaling so the spec regularly needs tuning multiple times every patch if we arent tuned giga high at the start of every tier
fair oak
Man you really hate outlaw it's pretty crazy
long barn
I loved outlaw S2 😒
gaunt phoenix
I really think lowering GS would go a long way
long barn
Even with KS
gaunt phoenix
GS energy i mean
slate forge
If your dmg profile is hard capped pad no prio no funnel you would need to do 40% more dmg on 8 target to be considered
gaunt phoenix
I mean that sounds a bit much
stiff vector
wdym I love playing outlaw, what I hate is how blizzard have systemically ruined the specs dmg profile whilst also tuning it like dogshit and neglecting to fix literally any of its problems(in fact, only making decisions that continue to add more problems to fix for it)
mighty pivot
s2 outlaw didn't need 40% more damage over the rest, why would it need it now
fair oak
Has outlaw's damage profile even been different than this? Besides ks randomly targeting
stiff vector
there really is no excuse for it, they deserve every ounce of criticism they get
fair oak
You're just the consistent damage spec that doesnt rely on cds and is unkillable
Idk what you're looking for
fallow canopy
man. i want ot play outlaw casue iv been talkin about combat lately but i feel like if i switch off sub for outlaw im just screwing m yself
drowsy ridge
I miss Combat. It was simple, it lacked frills, but it worked once you hit enough Haste
copper radish
I miss Combat. It was simple, it lacked frills, but it worked once you hit enoug...
I remember the days that ambush was a dagger only ability 😭
fair oak
Sub and outlaw are like the 2 polar opposites lol
gaunt phoenix
Combat was a product of a different wow
copper radish
Always find it funny outlaw somehow got ambush
stiff vector
yeah thats the entire point...the spec already had a less than desirable damage profile, and they decided it would be a good idea to make it significantly worse instead of improving it like theyve done with Assa, Sub, and plenty of specs this Xpac.
fair oak
There are specs that do the same shit they it's just number higher
copper radish
They should just go full on on outlaw using guns for midnight. Make us a 25 yard range spec why not
stiff vector
neither of those specs are literally anything remotely close to outlaw right now
fair oak
Can you elaborate please
What is the damage profile of outlaw vs frost dk disregatding target cap
cinder relic
Fury is pretty flat
keen belfry
furry warrior
stiff vector
When I say there is legitimately almost nothing similar between BM+Frost DK and Outlaw I mean literally nothing.
fair oak
Could you kindly elaborate on frost/bm damage profiles compared to outlaw besides target cap
covert kestrel
https://youtube.com/shorts/QyghyZ3wlCw?si=L9BXoEtqIWlxXE8_
youtube shorts 
dawn talon
Frost dk is the same
huh
stiff vector
no, im not explaining it in detail if you are genuinely just this clueless about all 3 specs damage profiles.
fair oak
pretty please?
random stirrup
Bm is playing short cd build in keys now atm right
topaz ivy
youtube shorts <:Pog:473206763986878464>
Guildy sent me it as part of the ‘reroll from outlaw meme’ 🥲
random stirrup
They might look similar to law
fair oak
I'm only trying to understand what you mean by damage profile on bm
fallow canopy
okay so serious question then. if i switch to outlaw from sub. just how much would i be screwing m yself over damage wise in m+
dawn talon
Bm is playing short cd build in keys now atm right
bm is closer yea
fair oak
and frost dk has a 45s window but no prio no fuckall
you press frostscythe you prss glacial advance
slate forge
s2 outlaw didn't need 40% more damage over the rest, why would it need it now
But it literally did lol
golden epoch
They should just go full on on outlaw using guns for midnight. Make us a 25 yard...
I would love it if they did something interesting like this. I hoped that the new demon hunter spec would have kept the mobility, but done away with the transformation ... but it seems they never try to do anything a little "out of the box" (like making Outlaw pistols only mid-range spec) ... 🤷♂️
slate forge
And it had prio
dawn talon
and frost dk has a 45s window but no prio no fuckall
prio is not a necessity it's simply an important factor to consider
stiff vector
They might look similar to law
they still dont really have a similar profile to Outlaw though, because they still have somewhat decent burst, especially come tuesday when theyre gonna be playing DR 1 min build (at least in raid, although im sure youll be able to play it in keys too and do nuclear ST but a bit less aoe than PL)
dawn talon
if you do good st and also can pad and explode mobs every x seconds it's fine
copper radish
I would love it if they did something interesting like this. I hoped that the ne...
I’ve heard a rumbling the new outlaw is gonna be semi ranged like devourer
keen belfry
did @fair oak try to say outlaw and frost dk have same dmg profile
dawn talon
you just need at least 1 person who has relevant prio damage
fair oak
ok my bad bro it has a 45s window outlaw doesn't
I got caught lacking
but his whole thing is outlaw has prio
keen belfry
you were typing so confident too
late swallow
@keen belfry the type of guy to use the word "vis-à-vis" when describing a relationship between two things
mighty pivot
Epsilonee post a cat video right meow to atone for that 
fair oak
no
stiff vector
wdym frost dk has good prio LOL
and BM hunters prio isnt amazing but its certainly better than outlaws
they still cleave off a main target
random stirrup
they still dont really have a similar profile to Outlaw though, because they sti...
Yes, all true, just that it’s a bit more like it than some other specs for sure
keen belfry
@fair oak sit this one out you are like 0/5 rn
like not even flaming
noah fence bro
dawn talon
this guy did almost arcane damage to the destroyer in first pull ecodome
keen belfry
youre cooked
keen belfry
this guy did almost arcane damage to the destroyer in first pull ecodome
@fair oak
mighty pivot
this guy did almost arcane damage to the destroyer in first pull ecodome
cursor 
keen belfry
this guy did almost arcane damage to the destroyer in first pull ecodome
same outlaw dmg profile btw!
dawn talon
cursor <:susge:1384265819806240888>
it's tsukasa from touhou
keen belfry
not true
looks like cat woman anime woman
youre cooked
you and @fair oak need to go to jail
fair oak
<@521269466567409681>
keen belfry
i ask
random stirrup
Paladins are cleaved tho
fair oak
is this what we're doing
keen belfry
are there more than 1 paladin in that pull?
fair oak
we're just going through logs now?
keen belfry
outlaw is very good at doing paladin dmg
stiff vector
there are like legit 3-4 pallys in that pull LOL
keen belfry
you are stupid noah fence
fair oak
you are too smart for me I fear but please a moment of your time
stiff vector
I dont think you understand what the word damage profile means, or prio, or funnel lol
fair oak
I don't think you understand anything besides hating outlaw
dawn talon
bro there are 3 paladins in 2 separate pulls in this dungeon
stiff vector
wdym I love playing outlaw
dawn talon
as opposed to 1 destroyer in the first pull of ecodome
this is such a shit comparison
fair oak
ok what is priority damage
late swallow
bro who is noah fence and why is everyone talking about him
slate forge
Link the log lol
fair oak
isnt it damage to an important monster in a pull
dawn talon
also this is like a 17
stuck lance
Let's just close the class discord and whine more.
keen belfry
ok what is priority damage
targetting one mob and doing a bunch of dmg to it
keen belfry
isnt it damage to an important monster in a pull
to one, yes
cinder relic
Prio damage is a buzzword people use when specs are OP to explain why they are OP 
slate forge
Wouldn’t the mini bosses be a better example or do we just like cherry picking data?
keen belfry
@fair oak linked an aoe dmg taken log to explain his prio dmg LMAO
dawn talon
Prio damage is a buzzword people use when specs are OP to explain why they are O...
i mean yes that's true but it's definitely a relevant part of why fdk and arcane are good
your key is way faster if you have a mage hitting destroyer than if you play 3x marks even tho all 3 hunters will do 4m more overall
keen belfry
prio damage goes beyong dmg meter to show why its so value in m+
stiff vector
yep, you heard it here first from notorious key pusher Guy, prio is just an irrelevant "buzzword" 
random stirrup
Prio and funnel aren’t buzzwords, they are legitimate considerations when group building and a major factor in timing keys
dawn talon
^
late swallow
I wonder if Guy is going for title again this season
fair oak
<@521269466567409681> linked an aoe dmg taken log to explain his prio dmg LMAO
I'm not looking to argue ngl but in my eyes if a spec does good damage to important mobs in a key it has good prio
dawn talon
and do +60% barrage damage
fair oak
I feel like outlaw does that
dawn talon
makes the boss an entire 2 cycles faster
random stirrup
Groups without funnel legit cannot do the same routes that funnel groups can
dawn talon
that is insane
keen belfry
I feel like outlaw does that
are you still ragebaiting or is it done
shy pecan
I'm not looking to argue ngl but in my eyes if a spec does good damage to import...
If an important mob is present x6 in a pack it is not prio dmg
dawn talon
and do +60% barrage damage
unless it's me on arcane then im barraging the low hp nothing mob so i can pad overall #sorrynotsorry
late swallow
outlaw is really good at 8 target prio damage
random stirrup
I feel like outlaw does that
cinder relic
i mean yes that's true but it's definitely a relevant part of why fdk and arcane...
To be pednatic, they have funnel not prio
arcane anyway
shy pecan
In a certain pull with 1 target which should be killed ASAP the dmg to this specific mob would be considered prio dmg because it has the highest priority to get killed
in this scenario outlaw just cries in the corner
late swallow
To be pednatic, they have funnel not prio
pednatic 
proper veldt
pedantic
dawn talon
but 'my mage is killing this mob instantly' is still a relevant strength
fair oak
are you still ragebaiting or is it done
will ragebait more in like 5mins
typing in discord between aram deaths
slate forge
Nice prio buddy
keen belfry
will ragebait more in like 5mins
these arent even prio specs that are gapping my first pull shredder dmg
vivid vessel
I feel like outlaw does that
outlaw is like the master spec at doing irrelevant damage wdym ..
dawn talon
tho i think it means any teacher now
late swallow
I feel like outlaw does that
Okay, but you're just going against all the facts, then. Like, there is no evidence to support your proposition, and every time you try, your arguments are dismantled.
Continuing to believe a proposition despite a mountain of evidence to the contrary indicates you have some special incentive to back 2pc, like maybe you work for Big 2PC, or you just don't subscribe to the fundamentals of epistemology.
vivid vessel
I feel like outlaw does that
Okay, but you're just going against all the facts, then. Like, there is no evidence to support your proposition, and every time you try, your arguments are dismantled.
Continuing to believe a proposition despite a mountain of evidence to the contrary indicates you have some special incentive to back 2pc, like maybe you work for Big 2PC, or you just don't subscribe to the fundamentals of epistemology.
proper veldt
Nice prio buddy
keen belfry
my bad gng
Okay, but you're just going against all the facts, then. Like, there is no evidence to support your proposition, and every time you try, your arguments are dismantled.
Continuing to believe a proposition despite a mountain of evidence to the contrary indicates you have some special incentive to back 2pc, like maybe you work for Big 2PC, or you just don't subscribe to the fundamentals of epistemology.
fair oak
buff outlaw it's dogshit
gaunt phoenix
shy pecan
There are no different opinions, only wrong ones 
covert kestrel
Make outlaw the epistemology spec
late swallow
buff outlaw it's dogshit
stiff vector
no, we bullied him into being better educated 
mighty pivot
they only prio outlaws ever did in s3 was bully epsilonee
keen belfry
@fair oak gets a pass now i thought we had a new P*po in our chat
dawn talon
lets go we buillied him into our stance
now we have to do this in the arcane channel to make people play ss even tho it's ass
keen belfry
i accidentally did a ss arakara
fair oak
no, we bullied him into being better educated <:EZ:740724641441775647>
yeah you sound super educated ngl
dawn talon
LMFAO
keen belfry
i had no diea what i was doing
fair oak
love that for my boy
dawn talon
good looks bro
make the spec look weak
so we can dodge tuning
im loving getting invited to keys
keen belfry
still had good prio cuz u get so many intuitons
keen belfry
but u press orb at 4 charges apparently?
dawn talon
bc i saw hearthjacks doing it
keen belfry
you dont forget how to play this new SS spec, its brand new cuh
you ahve to learn how to play it
fair oak
you get less funnel now since you don't play spellslinger
keen belfry
its very diff now
dawn talon
i practiced it in the first 2 weeks of the season
random stirrup
My 675 arcane with last tier 4p is still a spellslinger gamer
dawn talon
and was p confident in it
and then forgot
everything i was doing
when i went to play it the other day
keen belfry
yeah arcane is like A- tier for funnel now i think right? s tier is assa and havoc maybe? idk
fair oak
havoc for sure
dawn talon
arcane funnel is higher at low target countsd
havoc has crazy target count scaling on its funnel tho
stiff vector
yeah you sound super educated ngl
thank you, definitely better educated than you I guess 
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/ZztTN2a1VcDAKbX4?fight=11&type=damage-done&pull=1&target=117 btw outlaw and BM definitely look like they have the same prio dmg right?
dawn talon
so in like relevant pulls it's better funnel
cinder haven
But outlaw funnel is the best
random stirrup
Have to see what assa funnel looks like once they fix the bug
dawn talon
but pulling onto boss in gambit for example
arcane is doing the most damage to boss
i think
keen belfry
arcane is outlaw esque in priroy, you actaully destroy paladins now compared to last seasonm in my psf i did 2.5billion to paladins overall
dawn talon
ye
fair oak
thank you, definitely better educated than you I guess <:Shrug:11863740542282793...
the most educated outlaw rogue
keen belfry
soul windows are crazy
dawn talon
i killed a paladin before 2nd toll
keen belfry
in execute
dawn talon
on lust pull
keen belfry
priory lines up where u usually get a full soul window on only paladins in execute
stiff vector
srry just had t o show how OP BM hunter alrdy is since its getting turbo buffed tuesday for some reason
dawn talon
dude i played a hoa key where i griefed
so bad i just had to close my game
for the rest of the day
i actually felt disgusting
HAHAHAHAH
slate forge
srry just had t o show how OP BM hunter alrdy is since its getting turbo buffed ...
Solo diff sims too good need to fire him
fair oak
altho I do invite you to play a key or two of bm hunter
get a good feel of its prio damage in its spells
which miniboss is ixin in arakara
2nd with the adds that appear with the call?
slate forge
Should’ve let ryu do our sim builds
covert kestrel
Should’ve let ryu do our sim builds
https://tenor.com/view/top-gun-icemav-top-gun-maverick-top-gun-maverick-funeral-funeral-gif-26848803
inland cairn
Solo diff sims too good need to fire him
its worth it for the best in discord FAQ known to mankind
keen belfry
@dawn talon
fallen mural
It’s time for us to start sandbagging like the rest below us
stiff vector
which miniboss is ixin in arakara
I mean you can literally just look at dmg to any of the 3 mini bosses, doesnt matter which one lol. BM hunter is gapping fury and outlaw to the mini boss on all 3 of them, not sure what point you think youre making
dawn talon
<@723418639646195803>
wait ur arcane was are actually so nice
keen belfry
literally goated WAs
covert kestrel
sub and assa faqs: "go to our external site guides waaaah" 
outlaw faq: "here's all the information right here king, in a better format than any guide site without useless required info" 
fair oak
I mean you can literally just look at dmg to any of the 3 mini bosses, doesnt ma...
you're right my liege
outlaw is bad
late swallow
sub and assa faqs: "go to our external site guides waaaah" <:soyboy:851578543878...
fuu's sub visuals are unironically goated
unparalleled
vale warren
outlaw is bad
covert kestrel
fuu's sub visuals are unironically goated
sub visuals = inside of a gimp mask?
late swallow
people say he took a semester of graphic design at SCAD just to dial in his visuals
dawn talon
literally goated WAs
i made my mage WAs after pulling an all nighter grading papers
by mangling forgyy's was
late swallow
sub visuals = inside of a gimp mask?
me zipping the eye covers on my gimp mask closed while the stewardess does the preflight presentation
random stirrup
The outlaw faq is probably the best source of info in any class discord
wouldnt expect anything else from the goats
dawn talon
The outlaw faq is probably the best source of info in any class discord
id say it's not even close
it's like
way better than anything else
late swallow
solo loves the glaze
keen belfry
by mangling forgyy's was
his WAs are ugly but very good/practical
keen belfry
they are the definition of function over appearance
ive become a "i cant play with ugly UI" guy
covert kestrel
solo loves the glaze
id take a bullet or a cock for solo, whichever comes first
shy pecan
But would you take a bullet to the cock?
keen belfry
i would
crude flower
The outlaw faq is probably the best source of info in any class discord
Didn't whispyr make that like
3 and a half hour video of assa to go with the guide
mighty pivot
you know, solo posted like 15 lines of fake patch notes, not one of them was fixing "Inevitabile" End which is also the most important bug
crude flower
id take a bullet or a cock for solo, whichever comes first
Bro i'd do the second for free
gaunt phoenix
you know, solo posted like 15 lines of fake patch notes, not one of them was fix...
That's fixed on ptr apparently
mighty pivot
lies
covert kestrel
Didn't whispyr make that like
3 and a half hour video of assa to go with the gui...
yeah but a) not on a class discord technically b) unironically that length of video is a really bad way to convey info
crude flower
yeah but a) not on a class discord technically b) unironically that length of vi...
Ah fair
yea that's true, but i feel like it's ther if you wanna know more
the guide is already super good
tbh all three rogue ones are
But i feel like it's a
"need more, go here and watch a man die over the course of 3 hours"
dawn talon
ive become a "i cant play with ugly UI" guy
i can stomach ugly but im very picky about what kind of ugly i can tolerate
covert kestrel
But i feel like it's a
"need more, go here and watch a man die over the course...
"I would've written a shorter letter, but did not have the time"
-Blaise Pascal, 1657
crude flower
Haha
dawn talon
concision is probably the hardest skill to learn
dawn talon
when trying to convey any information
vale portal
So how big is the difference of dps is KIR/Supercharger vs HO/Vigor?
keen belfry
a few talent points
gaunt phoenix
So how big is the difference of dps is KIR/Supercharger vs HO/Vigor?
like 10% in big pulls but overall maybe like 5-6%
random stirrup
Didn't whispyr make that like
3 and a half hour video of assa to go with the gui...
It is also pretty good. I think videos can be similar to written guides with proper time stamp usage, but I prefer the written format for sure
covert kestrel
Any chance we will see a buff
50//50
crude flower
It is also pretty good. I think videos can be similar to written guides with pro...
Yea, i agree
I feel like having both is nice aswell
muted crest
today will be classtune?
craggy quiver
Tuning was last Friday notes
gaunt phoenix
Any chance we will see a buff
Zero
blizz is not in tune with our spec, and we don't have a tettles to uproar across the internet
craggy quiver
We have Zac tho
mellow mica
How do you deal damage in big pull? You click 200 skills per second and your damage doesn't increase at all
wtf
This is frustrating, isn't it?
proven ocean
blizz is not in tune with our spec, and we don't have a tettles to uproar across...
@vivid vessel rare sollo dooming moment?
dawn talon
blizz is not in tune with our spec, and we don't have a tettles to uproar across...
tettles is a generational sandbagger
we need to send someone to study azor and tettles for a year in the mountains
and come back to sandbag our spec
stiff vector
I mean the fact this is the worst tier outlaw has had in a long time(and we are never even particularly good in raid in the first place) and we still didnt get buffed should go to show just how out of touch they are with this specl ol
gaunt phoenix
And no way they are concerned about overbuffing outlaw for M+
when they freely buff bm in keys
proven ocean
even if outlaw gets a 10% aura buff which never happens outlaw wont be op in m+ 
and it wont be meta either
slate forge
After the KS feedback they asked for and what they gave us it is clear the don’t give a fk why would tuning be any different
stiff vector
ngl I dont understand why they didnt just buff DR, and ST abilities if raid dmg was their issue with BMs current tuning, or buff certain ST talents for BM because their ST is very good in keys
dark sable
bc hunter is pally but ranged
hearty fulcrum
The squeaky wheel gets the grease and our spec is too underplayed to be squeaky tbh. And it only gets worse as more people leave the spec for greener pastures.
dark sable
The squeaky wheel gets the grease and our spec is too underplayed to be squeaky ...
tbf the whole class is underplayed
i don't think blizzard will ever truly give a fuck about the least played spec of one of the least played classes
hearty fulcrum
True
dark sable
just checkked wclogs
late swallow
solo using <:caught:1413601132248301599>
dark sable
2k logs on outlaw
gaunt phoenix
i mean triple dps specs tend to have this happen
dark sable
arcane has 43k that´s more parses than all rogue combined lol
and mage is a triple dps spec
late swallow
Shame there are no triple tank classes
late swallow
Outlaw support spec rework when?
dark sable
would you guys still play outlaw if they made it a tank spec?
untold heart
are we really discussing if rogue is not being played a lot?
old gull
dawn talon
arcane has 43k that´s more parses than all rogue combined lol
mage and wl are just more popular classes lol
aff and fire are right down there with us
dark sable
true
dawn talon
rogue has more people who only play 1 spec though for sure
hoary wave
would you guys still play outlaw if they made it a tank spec?
100%
dark sable
but that was my point earlier, outlaw being the least played of one of the least played classes
they won't ever give a fuck
dawn talon
yep
golden epoch
but that was my point earlier, outlaw being the least played of one of the least...
is Outlaw less played than Sub???
dark sable
is Outlaw less played than Sub???
right now in raid yes
dawn talon
is Outlaw less played than Sub???
yes
stiff vector
not rly surprisin the classes that have received the most dev attention in the past few years has been mage, hunter, DK, pally...also basically the 4 most played classes.
dawn talon
like 4x less played almost
dawn talon
not rly surprisin the classes that have received the most dev attention in the p...
i mean it's just the right decision to make
objectively
stiff vector
ye I mean i can understand it from a business perspective
dark sable
in dungeons too
dawn talon
i don't blame them it just sucks to like shit that's unpopular
hearty fulcrum
It’s a chicken and the egg situation tho
hearty fulcrum
Rogue used to be super popular and is a popular archetype in other mmos
dawn talon
ever since these statistics have existed
rogue has been one of the least played classes in the game
stiff vector
but still, doesnt mean you should completely ignore an entire class for an entire xpac and make poor design decisions for it, I would never expect them to give rogue as much attention as they do mage but I mean cmon blizzard, this is just pathetic
cinder relic
Rogue has been unpopular since like, wrath
dark sable
Rogue used to be super popular and is a popular archetype in other mmos
true, i picked rogue because that's all i play in any mmo or rpg that i can lol
dawn talon
people who say it used to be popular were just walking around the open world on pvp servers
bc that's the only context rogue was ever particularly popular in
ganking people
dark sable
remember that one song
cinder relic
Rogue hasn't been "ignored" it's just gotten mostly small scale changes
dawn talon
rogue has a rly solid base and really simple fundamentals that don't require overhauling
while things like ret and enhance have been design nightmares since forever
late swallow
rogues do it from behind
I make my proctologist shout “cheap shot, cold blood, symbols, sectech” during my examination
cinder relic
If outlaw was the exact same, except tuned 10% higher, I don't think anybody would be singing the blues about being neglected
Other than maybe loktark trying to force outlaw on last 2
dawn talon
If outlaw was the exact same, except tuned 10% higher, I don't think anybody wou...
nah i think people would complain about the stuff with KS cd and fb losing prio damage on a spec with historically good prio no matter what
it just feels bad
stiff vector
Rogue hasn't been "ignored" it's just gotten mostly small scale changes
you must have a very different definition of what "ignored" means than literally everyone else I guess, guess everyone else is just wrong 
stuck lance
I picked rogue because someone told me to
dark sable
If outlaw was the exact same, except tuned 10% higher, I don't think anybody wou...
thing is, when talking about the class itself, blizz really doesn't give a fuck
dawn talon
the ks changes just really rubbed me the wrong way
untold heart
I picked rogue because someone told me to
Sue him
dark sable
assa has a hero talent that straight up stopped working at the start of the season
dawn talon
everyone gave feedback about that immediately and they actively made the issue worse
dark sable
don't know for the other 2 but
i feel like if your season set revolves around hero trees, those should be working perfectly
stiff vector
should we break out the comparison of just the sheer amount of blue posts w/ iteration that mage/hunter/DK has gotten this xpac compared to rogue? But yyeah...totally the class wasnt ignored this entire xpac 
cinder relic
Wasn't rogue in the middle of the pack for "Amount of blueposts"
late swallow
they diddled dk´s butthole for like an entire month coming into this season
Well said
cinder relic
Which is a bad metric to use but lol
dark sable
the only difference that really came out was "now you don't need dnd to cleave!"
late swallow
Wasn't rogue in the middle of the pack for "Amount of blueposts"
Do you have a source on that?
Source?
A source. I need a source.
Sorry, I mean I need a source that explicitly states your argument. This is just tangential to the discussion.
No, you can't make inferences and observations from the sources you've gathered. Any additional comments from you MUST be a subset of the information from the sources you've gathered.
You can't make normative statements from empirical evidence.
Do you have a degree in that field?
A college degree? In that field?
Then your arguments are invalid.
No, it doesn't matter how close those data points are correlated. Correlation does not equal causation.
Correlation does not equal causation.
CORRELATION. DOES. NOT. EQUAL. CAUSATION.
You still haven't provided me a valid source yet.
Nope, still haven't.
cinder relic
I think there is a large difference between "being ignored and getting nothing" and "getting less attention than the specs getting the most changes"
dark sable
again
dark sable
assa has had broken hero tree talents since the start of the season (forgot about the fatebound bug) that haven't even been adressed
that's just straight up ignoring it
dawn talon
Wasn't rogue in the middle of the pack for "Amount of blueposts"
i think so, but at the same time they didn't actually change much of anything
cinder relic
I mean idk wtf is going on with sin, it's actually fucked
random obsidian
Even if not "chicken or the egg situation", rogue would indeed be more popular if it did receive more attention, sure not enough to make it pal or hunt but it's well known people look forward to their class/spec receiving changes from patch to patch and xpac to xpac
dawn talon
people have had issues with FB since beta
vivid vessel
assa has had broken hero tree talents since the start of the season (forgot abou...
all 3 specs hero talents are non working so
dark sable
I mean idk wtf is going on with sin, it's actually fucked
frfr
cinder relic
I don't think ppl "Dont play rogue because of l ack of attention"
Because again, the rogue class has been unpopular since wrath/cata
untold heart
Blizzard would NEVER ignore rogue they are just waiting for the new rogue dev to join, any second now
dawn talon
people don't play rogue because we have no animations and we don't really do anything particularly cool
cinder relic
Rogue just isn't that popular of an archetype in wow
placid stream
so i would like to talk about just overall dps for m+ 10 for weekly vault. if a player has same skill level and tank is not chain pulling what spec would have the most overall dps?? Sin vs Outlaw vs Sub
dark sable
all 3 specs hero talents are non working so
yeah, i'm not saying like ohh poor sin players :( just happens to be the one i play, and i don't have info on the other 2
just talking about how they ignore the class as a whole
dawn talon
Rogue just isn't that popular of an archetype in wow
yeah i mean a lot of people who play wow just like paladins thematically
there's a trillion human/belf ret paladins
dark sable
yeah
dawn talon
who only do world quests and heroic dungeons
late swallow
Paladins and hunters
dawn talon
for every 1 person who zones into a mythic raid while it's current
in their entire time playing the game
lol
dark sable
go to any fantasy / rpg / whatever game and you will see 300billion pallys
random obsidian
I believe it is the case tho, the fact it's never been especially popular doesn't justify it being that low atm, and the point isnt that more attention will get it to pals level of popularity but it will certainly help
cinder relic
Well do you want Rogue to play like ret paladin?
dawn talon
that actually is another good point
rogue is historically seen as 'hard' and our tcers are kinda extra compared to the rest of the community
so people know our optimisations exist more readily than with other classes
pure echo
i personally think rogue is more focused on playing like a "wow rogue" than it cares for fulfilling the rogue fantasy
dawn talon
so people get scared off trying it bc they think they'll suck
dawn talon
i personally think rogue is more focused on playing like a "wow rogue" than it c...
no, it's almost 1:1 dnd 3.5e rogue
pure echo
iconic things like poisons, slice and dice, and stuff just sticks around purely for the culture
dawn talon
and always has been
that is the version of the rogue fantasy that it aims for, and it does it quite well
it's just not modern animeslop cmmo ninja
and that's what people associate rogue with nowadays even though the two are very different
cinder relic
Isnt the FF14 "rogue" unpopular
pure echo
i think you are making a lot of assumptions
cinder relic
Not samuai
pure echo
people i talk to mainly have an issue with the obtusiveness of the rogue spec, irregardles of the 'fantasy' being served
the fantasy itself is mainly fine
stuck sparrow
yeah rogue has never been a popular class
outside of overtuned pvp instances where even complete idiots can 100-0 someone
stuck sparrow
see: classic wow
indigo token
they diddled dk´s butthole for like an entire month coming into this season
people were saying that the leather dev was moved to housing
which sounds like bs
dawn talon
people i talk to mainly have an issue with the obtusiveness of the rogue spec, i...
most of what i see is people not playing the class bc it has no visual flair and is hard to get into
random obsidian
The biggest turn off in the case of rogue imo is that if something feels terrible gameplay wise, it will remain untouched for basically years sometimes
stiff vector
I mean it isnt hard to simply look at what talent tree reworks/changes/new talents have we gotten this xpac? Almost nothing outside of supercharger and 2 vanish charges in Beta. The main feature of this xpac, Hero trees, has been a complete disaster and they didnt get reworked despite arguably needing it more than almost any other spec, and our hero trees are still incredibly bugged, just like they were in beta, Trickster was unplayable for outlaw s1, deathstalker is still unplayable for Sub. Were quite literally ending the xpac with more problems, and bugs, and issues than we started the xpac with. So where are the improvements if the class wasnt ignored in TWW?
pure echo
outlaw having shadow dance was a crime that stood for way too long lol
random obsidian
While more popular classes getting more attention means they have more opportunities to fix the eventual gameplay issues they might have
stuck sparrow
and tbh i know multiple people
who just think the concept of non dagger rogues
is dumb
cinder relic
U guys should play these other classes that are popular
its not a free ticket to getting what u want
stuck sparrow
also rogue just sucks at solo content
dawn talon
U guys should play these other classes that are popular
see: fire
stuck sparrow
and most of the playerbase barely engages in group content of difficulty
dawn talon
many, many people hated rune of power
and it was in the game for what, 4 years?
after they brought it back
dawn talon
outlaw having shadow dance was a crime that stood for way too long lol
shadow dance was great
lethal oak
U guys should play these other classes that are popular
Idk my DK seems to do fine
dawn talon
idk why people hate it
pure echo
the 'silent majority' of casuals isnt something you can really verify exists or the extent of it
dawn talon
Idk my DK seems to do fine
yeah but the actual design of unholy fucking sucks
and blood dk LOL
random obsidian
The point isnt that more attention guarantees good changes, its just more opportunities for good changes
pure echo
because they by definition tend to dodge APIs or are alts or etc. etc.
stuck sparrow
i mean the silent majority only does shit like questing
pure echo
for all we know no one delves or everyone delves
stuck sparrow
and rogue is dogwater at solo content
dawn talon
the 'silent majority' of casuals isnt something you can really verify exists or ...
it's been stated by blizz themselves that most people don't engage with challenging endgame content
like, over and over
for a decade
pure echo
Not really, theyre only official answer is "everyone does everything"
at last gamescom Ion said a lot of people like delves, which is something
cinder relic
Idk my DK seems to do fine
I just mean playing these popular specs for extended periods of time doesnt directly correlate to "Its always good deisgn"
dark sable
<:besad:507266809431326729> people were saying that the leather dev was moved to...
Bro was moved to elder housing
Dev's gone
stuck sparrow
just about every long time dk main i know had a massive hateboner for sanlayn unholy
but fotm monkeys just play it because bloodbeast rng details meter
random obsidian
yeah but the actual design of unholy fucking sucks
true but tbf fdk linda monopolized most of the attention dks got in TWW
indigo token
Bro was moved to elder housing
is that actually true
lethal oak
I just mean playing these popular specs for extended periods of time doesnt dire...
Yeah you have to FotM to be consistently pleased with class design
dawn talon
or play mage
have you ever seen the fire or frost channels dude
dark sable
is that actually true
No idea, just memeing
indigo token
i don't think they're EVER happy with their class design
fire mage is dogshit
deaths chill is a terrible talent for frost
stiff vector
so the take is, if you want your class to receive even the bare minimum in iteration and design/tuning, you have to play the most popular class, otherwise...get fucked?
lament flume
What is the breakpoint of haste on kir trickster build?
dawn talon
yea i fucking
stuck sparrow
yea its hard to
stiff vector
Yea, seems reasonable.
dawn talon
DESPISE sf fire
stiff vector
civic zephyr
i don't think they're EVER happy with their class design
Considering we were used to frost being meta for 20 years yeah it’s tiring to see one spec just get giga broken and deleted when it’s the most fun
fervent garden
i wonder if in say a year from now, like say Blizz completely reworks Rogue, like tunes it for a whole expansion, how many people will be like "I wish they just left that shit alone", like at what point are we happy?
stuck sparrow
it was never a frost meta for 20 years
stuck sparrow
mages always shifted what spec was good
civic zephyr
This is pve bot stuff my b
stuck sparrow
i mean modern wow pvp was fire
for 2 expansions
🤣
unless you played MLX
then you're just as frontal lobe missing as meleecleave players
cinder relic
Also like, Hunter is not like, in a good state
dawn talon
fire mage is dogshit
do u rly not like FF SKB?
cinder relic
Like hunter is OP
dawn talon
i think it's rly fun
cinder relic
But their tier is legit just obnoxius to play with
daring oxide
Insider info, leaked notes for tonight
mighty pivot
OP but not in good state
eager rose
anyone have this gif with outlaw spells?
dawn talon
OP but not in good state <:garf_sit:1334889429449314456>
i mean yea
pack leader is just
the most annoying shit in the game to play
rn
cinder relic
^
stuck sparrow
outlaw has more buttons though
stiff vector
i wonder if in say a year from now, like say Blizz completely reworks Rogue, lik...
If Blizzard iterates on the spec, and makes good and fun design decisions that make the class better and more fun then people will be happy...not that crazy of a concept. If they conintue to make bad changes that people dislike and disagree with because they ignore the feedback they ask for, then people will be unhappy. Works the same for literally any class in the game. Its pretty simple.
stuck sparrow
the problem with bad furys is same with most specs
alot of wow players straight up dont know how to hit buttons
every global
dawn talon
like sf arcane is
- REALLY FUCKING FUN
- insanely broken
and the importance is in that order
worldly shale
Insider info, leaked notes for tonight
ok now crop it so we can fool someone
stuck sparrow
pack leader is just
i just play dark ranger mm
worldly shale
like ourselves
dawn talon
sure bm and mm are both ridiculously broken
stuck sparrow
like a real 
stiff vector
Idk ive played PL on surv, never felt like it was super annoying to play
dawn talon
but they're both really annoying to play
dawn talon
Idk ive played PL on surv, never felt like it was super annoying to play
it's a lot less cringe for sv
and also ur tolerance for dogshit spec design
goes up by a lot
playing outlaw and sv
ngl
HAHAHAHAHA
stiff vector
probably tbh
keen belfry
guys id idnt know that fences in streets killed
cinder relic
Its extremely reliant on mob positioning
dawn talon
goodbye to ur spellfire spheres bro
keen belfry
stiff vector
I like how you die 40y away from the fence lul
worldly shale
bro clicked recap
random obsidian
If Blizzard iterates on the spec, and makes good and fun design decisions that m...
a good example of this would be enhance DF s2 or 3 idr exactly, they looked pretty happy with the design of the spec
keen belfry
https://medal.tv/games/world-of-warcraft/clips/l3WGlNqKfUouZbRat?invite=cr-MSxaaU8sNDU1MDEwMw listen to my fart noise WA when i die
dark sable
LMFAO
slate forge
If outlaw was the exact same, except tuned 10% higher, I don't think anybody wou...
I agree outlaw is fun and rotation feel fun except new ks length and the hero talents we’ve had the entire expansion should have been scrapped in the first .5 patch thematically they are terrible and riddled with bugs
dark sable
https://medal.tv/games/world-of-warcraft/clips/l3WGlNqKfUouZbRat?invite=cr-MSxaa...
how'd you make the dungeon timer look like that?
civic zephyr
this discord is not about rogue
its about what else to play LOL
random obsidian
I agree outlaw is fun and rotation feel fun except new ks length and the hero ta...
base outlaw is perfect, hero trees are a net negative tbf
daring oxide
anyone have this gif with outlaw spells?
ill try to make one, do you have the original gif (of the lizard alone)
keen belfry
how'd you make the dungeon timer look like that?
weakaura
keen belfry
@daring oxide
daring oxide
wait lmao wtf happened here
daring oxide
<@105752825878843392>
was it the fence?
keen belfry
was it the fence?
yes
stiff vector
I could of swore I walked thru the fence the other day
dark sable
thanks c:
cinder relic
This is why I feel rogue is unpopular anyway
But this has been true, again since like, Wrath/cata
It's not like it's a "Since DF" or "Since BFA"
pastel cedar
i fill like outlaw has a cool niche
cinder relic
I know a lot of my friends just won't play rogue cuz they dont like combo points and energy since like, what, its feral, and rogue that use this system
crude flower
Also blizzard barely pays any attention to rogue and it's bugs
pastel cedar
i mean we use a damn big gun
cinder relic
Meanwhile every DPS spec in the game is just cooldowns
frail veldt
I know a lot of my friends just won't play rogue cuz they dont like combo points...
i feel like theyve been adding combo points to a lot of specs
cinder relic
I don't think rogues bugs have anything to do with its popularity
dark sable
This is why I feel rogue is unpopular anyway
just remove energy let us faceroll without consequences 
keen belfry
i still cant decide if im pro or anti non cds
pastel cedar
runes for DK is basically CP
cinder relic
These aren't energy though
frail veldt
yeah energy is weird
cinder relic
I mean I enjoy it, it's why I've played rogue for 8+ years
frail veldt
its one of the few resources that doesnt have a builder and spender
cinder relic
But these are part of why its unpopular
frail veldt
I think energy isnt the reason I like rogue personally its the combo points
but yeah I agree
energy is in a weird place for outlaw and sub
cinder relic
These aren't bugs, they are features
grim spear
rogue was popular
frail veldt
I think assa is the only spec that has energy functioning correctly imo
pastel cedar
keeping up bleeds to do good damage in AOE is just a thing of the past, look at frost DK you just faceroll into a pack and do crazy damage
grim spear
when I started playing wow
twilit rivet
help me boost my ego, this is the highest overall i've had in a +10 at 696ilvl last season 4set
pastel cedar
dont have to tab target bleeds on targets
cinder relic
when I started playing wow
When was this?
grim spear
vanilla
cinder relic
I don't even think data existed back then to be able to proove
crude flower
Meh, i feel like im getting more love from blizzard as a survival hunter than i am a rogue
grim spear
well
dark sable
dont have to tab target bleeds on targets
Do sub and outlaw care about rupture for aoe?
pastel cedar
Sub does
frail veldt
I think rogue was memed on as overly popular in early days of wow
in classic at least
pastel cedar
rogue was fine when mana was still a thing for casters
frail veldt
I played back then and the content about every group already having a rogue was def a thing
cinder relic
I mean we have data on popularity from back during cata, and rogue was the least popular class even in OG cata
So I'm sort of inclined to believe that its alwayas been unpopular
It might have been more popular in og vanilla, but I feel part of that was like, a lot of specs literally weren't real
Like ret paladin
yk
pastel cedar
why play rogue when you can play any other melee and its way simplier and does the same if not better dps
frail veldt
yeah rogue was one of the select few giga classes back then
grim spear
in vanilla WoW, rogues were very popular because they offered some complexity
grim spear
PvP was both fun and strong, and stealth made them extremely powerful in outdoor
cinder relic
PVP was also a much larger portion of wow in general
frail veldt
yeah very true
strange kelp
Do sub and outlaw care about rupture for aoe?
It's more a filler cp spender between dance windows
grim spear
pvp was a vision
dawn talon
I played back then and the content about every group already having a rogue was ...
i mean, it definitely points to something grander if rogue stopped being popular INSTANTLY once other classes also had gameplay
frail veldt
Do sub and outlaw care about rupture for aoe?
outlaw doesnt have rupture
cinder relic
dawn talon
like vanilla feral is an actual fucking joke
cinder haven
A lot of the stuff that could sell rogue is pvp related
cinder relic
cinder haven
Stealth and stuff
pastel cedar
outlaw is the fun spec imo but it just does mid damage
pastel cedar
if you wanna crank switch to sub
grim spear
PvP is an illusion
civic zephyr
But this has been true, again since like, Wrath/cata
okay but youre missing one of the biggest reasons nobody played rogue back then
it was 10x harder just to level so everyone gave up by level 20
grim spear
players don’t actually play PvP, but they pick a class because “this class is strong in PvP.”
fluid meadow
about energy thing, this is with 95% adr uptime so have a resource(adr up) to get another resource(energy) to press a combo point builder(SS 3-4 times sometimes in a row kek) to do damage is just horrible and repeat. when no adr just can't press anything to get reset so it's a snowball thing in the negative way, but happens if u play it correctly too
cinder relic
okay but youre missing one of the biggest reasons nobody played rogue back then
...
I don't think cata leveling was still considered hard
dark sable
okay but youre missing one of the biggest reasons nobody played rogue back then
...
TRUE i suffered leveling during wotlk
cinder relic
In the same way classic leveling was
civic zephyr
I don't think cata leveling was still considered hard
to 90% of casual players yes
gaunt phoenix
290% total?
jolly dune
Pls help ;-;
cinder haven
Yeah but back when rogue identity was decided, pvp was a big part of the game
late swallow
Rogue leveling was unironically always bad
pastel cedar
Pls help ;-;
post your log lol cant help based off that SS
civic zephyr
players don’t actually play PvP, but they pick a class because “this class is st...
i pvp with rogue because its one of the few classes besides healer that forces you to learn more set ups and how it works
dark sable
Pls help ;-;
That group is cooked
cinder relic
290% total?
I think its % of the class in general that have reached max level
gaunt phoenix
i see
grim spear
I was 20 back then, I don’t have the data, but I have to say rogues were very popular. The unpopular classes at the time were things like druids and warlocks.
cinder relic
Which even in cata, rogue 8.5%, the least popular, next to the brand new spec, WW (Which was bad iirc)
civic zephyr
plus you gotta cut druid numbers in half due to bots
pastel cedar
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/jDa9vw8T4pWkKLGC?fight=19&pins=0%24Separate...
get enchants and gems LOL
civic zephyr
Which even in cata, rogue 8.5%, the least popular, next to the brand new spec, W...
because it was 10x the effort for something every other class could press one button for
cinder relic
Okay but this is my broader point
civic zephyr
rogue at max? beautiful
cinder relic
Rogue has been unpopular for an absurd amount of time
eager rose
ill try to make one, do you have the original gif (of the lizard alone)
nope, i see this in wowhead
cinder relic
Which like, idk, is fine. I like the quirks that come with rogue
gaunt phoenix
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/jDa9vw8T4pWkKLGC?fight=19&pins=0%24Separate...
your build is unusual- not sure where you copied these talents from
civic zephyr
nope, i see this in wowhead
100% agree and every year they make it even less
wicked obsidian
chicken
jolly dune
did wow heads dont know if i have changed since last season
cinder relic
ew
ocean lodge
is it better to slap in the focusing lens over ascension for m+ on crafted weapon?
civic zephyr
i mean almost every single other mmo does it for rogue
hybrid crown
Go whole ass pirate theme
gaunt phoenix
yeah just go lens
ocean lodge
gotcha
dark sable
Go whole ass pirate theme
Give outlaw a party buff that is just a pirate flag
hybrid crown
Yeaaaaa
quaint delta
rogue levelling always sucked as you got closer to max level if you weren't elite geared due to the severe dropoff of secondaries
elder phoenix
outlaw having a parrot pet like how locks have imps
grim spear
In vanilla, rogues were also very popular in dungeons because of Sap, stun locks, and decent DPS
hybrid crown
Hoist the colors
eager rose
I only miss one thing, not using stealth windows in Outlaw and this:
grim spear
raid damage was also quite good, since Vanish and Feint allowed them to manage threat very effectively.
stiff vector
RIP dreadblades, RIP Acro, never forgive, never forget 
fluid meadow
raid damage was also quite good, since Vanish and Feint allowed them to manage t...
at least now every pack has true sight since xpacks and priest was meta with soothe soo gucci
eager rose
RIP dreadblades, RIP Acro, never forgive, never forget <:mad:1007126797856538685...
yeah rip acro 😢
grim spear
In vanilla, most players weren’t very skilled, especially tanks
Basically, a tank’s threat determined how much damage you could do
red zinc
grim spear
and rogues were strong because they had many threat-reducing abilities.
jolly dune
your build is unusual- not sure where you copied these talents from
so mainly my build is the problem?
gaunt phoenix
iirc rogue was least popular in tbc classic
hybrid crown
Rogue was pretty hard to level before cata id say
stiff vector
ye leveling a rogue in tbc was definitely not great
cinder relic
iirc rogue was least popular in tbc classic <:Caught:1317263235870883850>
I think classic is a bit unfair to point to directly since it has a lot of modern baggage tied to it but yeah, rogues popularity has always been low
quaint delta
every regular mob was an elite
haughty wigeon
Who said ret was well designed
grim spear
And I have to say, rogues in vanilla were indeed quite "advanced"
haughty wigeon
This shit sucks balls
hybrid crown
Maybe if you had heirlooms and knew a bit more than the average mmo player but otherwise you probably went combat and ate food every 2 or 3 quest mobs you kill
cinder relic
Also classic rogue was just shit
haughty wigeon
And has no skill ceiling
grim spear
While most classes just had a mana bar and did “11111” for damage
hybrid crown
I played og wrath and again in wrath classic
grim spear
rogues had to manage two resources, maintain buffs and debuffs, which made them a pretty “sophisticated” class.
you don't need to do much target swapping in classic
hybrid crown
Like, playing wrath again just made me realize how awful the rotation design was
lunar vapor
I remember having a macro that out on my dagger for ambush and my sword on when I sinister striked back in classic.
stiff vector
I enjoyed playing enhance in wrath back in the day, it was very unique
hybrid crown
Its not like that anymore tho rogue is just fine to level with
But maybe that's part of why idk
haughty wigeon
rogues had to manage two resources, maintain buffs and debuffs, which made them ...
The buff aspect is also considered complicated by the community when it’s not in reality
gaunt phoenix
so mainly my build is the problem?
yes, no killing spree, sleight of hand but no supercharger
grim spear
The leveling difficulty of rogues in vanilla was probably about medium.
grim spear
and it's fun
gaunt phoenix
it has everything
haughty wigeon
I just don’t think we should dumb down any spec to ret /bm level
Without preserving the skill ceiling and floor in some way
grim spear
When outdoor content was difficult, rogues’ stealth and stunlock were very effective and fun strategies.
hybrid crown
Think we will get a last minute tuning tomorrow?????
grim spear
By the way, does FB have any bugs lately? I feel like the damage is really low.
pastel cedar
it has good bugs lol
grim spear
i know that one
pastel cedar
other than that idk, spec just doesnt perform well and its rng based
jolly dune
yes, no killing spree, sleight of hand but no supercharger
ty, yeah i dont know, was my build in last season and started in january so generly quite noob still, will do
gaunt phoenix
u can also look at logs to see what builds people are using
it's overwhelmingly Keep it rolling, but Hidden opportunity is not crazy behind
jolly dune
this better?
gaunt phoenix
Yeah that is the standard build for most raid bosses
pastel cedar
this better?
make sure to take ambush off your stealth bar is you havent
i ran with that build and forgot that and it hurt my damage
midnight widget
what's the cook people are using on Araz with both sleight of hand and loaded dice
cinder relic
Its just the new build
gaunt phoenix
the raid will use sleight, in keys it is experimental
jolly dune
make sure to take ambush off your stealth bar is you havent
hahaha just realised using a training dummy to prac the new abilities and was like why isnt keep it rollig starting up????
worldly shale
zac guild?
eager rose
I hope that in 12.0 old HO build is the best for m+, I think I'm tired of kir
worldly shale
I hope that in 12.0 old HO build is the best for m+, I think I'm tired of kir
wtf no
jolly dune
That group is cooked
hahah we r a more chill guild doing the heroic raids atm ^^
fathom bramble
I hope both builds are back to being within 1% of eachother so we can all play the one we enjoy more
eager rose
there was a certain flavor to the ambush procs
fathom bramble
Keep it rolling: Buffs granted by roll the bones are no longer removed when a new roll the bones is cast
manic light
how does good usage of RTB make better AR uptime?
swift hedge
i hate kir
gaunt phoenix
how does good usage of RTB make better AR uptime?
your buffs affect your energy / cooldown reduction / combo points
all these influence the cooldown on AR and vanish
On average
manic light
So I am going to assume that having a 60% rtb at the end of the dungeon is super ass
gaunt phoenix
Dont look at the "roll the bones" buff
midnight widget
the raid will use sleight, in keys it is experimental
is it a very low upgrade on the build without?
For me it's a 3k DPS upgrade on ST
gaunt phoenix
it is not logged correctly by details
manic light
what do I need to look for to see if RtB usage is good?
gaunt phoenix
is it a very low upgrade on the build without?
For me it's a 3k DPS upgrade on S...
It's a side grade / small upgrade after some rotation edits are done cooking
but it does let you high roll
Which we need to parse
gaunt phoenix
what do I need to look for to see if RtB usage is good?
you can broadly look at the uptimes on the buffs themselves
ruthless precision, true bearing, etc.
worldly shale
BROADSIDE
PEW PEW PEW
bro if they wanna keep the buffs
they should remake them
like broadside
shoots cannons
or something
idk
gaunt phoenix
but in general it is hard to assess rtb on your own
stuck sparrow
i remember when they gave us dreadblades on cdr
then tb cdr and kir got nerfed in the crossfire
manic light
you can broadly look at the uptimes on the buffs themselves
ok, so if I have 47-50% on them does that mean I am not pressing RtB enough or does that mean I am not saving the correct buffs?
gaunt phoenix
!rtb
ornate heathBOT
How to use 
RTB
(Assuming season 3 tier and 
Supercharger)
- Roll if you have 0 or 1 buffs.
- Roll if you have 2 buffs and
Loaded Dice is active. - Roll once asap after pressing
KIR, as your buffs don't get rolled away. Use this weakaura to see when your buffs don't get rolled away (yellow border). - After the KIR roll, continue to watch the weakaura as buffs tick down. As your buffs expire you may hit a point where your remaining buffs are yellow and you can roll again.
gaunt phoenix
you roll based on number of buffs
and kir needs that weakaura to catch when you can roll again for free
but yes your uptimes should be higher than 50%
stiff vector
any1 have 15 halls still need it for my last resil 15 
manic light
and kir needs that weakaura to catch when you can roll again for free
aight thanks a lot, I will work on it and hope I can reach a 80% ar
gaunt phoenix
but like, the average cooldown on KIR is affected by everything
much like AR
so when you fuck up you kind of snowball
cant maintain AR, cant KIR, cant vanish
keen belfry
any1 have 15 halls still need it for my last resil 15 <:Sadge:766602337380597800...
I don’t sorry
frank finch
worldly shale
any1 have 15 halls still need it for my last resil 15 <:Sadge:766602337380597800...
i dont im sorry too
frank finch
can wait till our buffs in about 4 hours
indigo token
who was it that said that we could see outlaw buffs
stiff vector
NA lfg down bad rn
cinder haven
Breaking news! "BM buffs reverted, Outlaw buffed instead!"
keen belfry
NA lfg down bad rn
My mage is resil 15 with 14 floodgate in the bags
keen belfry
How many body towels does a single male adult need do you guys think
frail veldt
well when they buff outlaw today you'll want to do some keys on it
keen belfry
I have 5 and I feel like it’s too many
keen belfry
I could do 3 and wash them weekly
vivid vessel
11.5%
keen belfry
Might throw away these 2
frail veldt
I wouldnt want to have to wash them weekly
vivid vessel
wtf
keen belfry
Do you want them mewo
frail veldt
11.5% in the ST raid build I think
frail veldt
Do you want them mewo
no I got plenty lol
keen belfry
Ok
vivid vessel
ye mb
stiff vector
imagine outlaw getting a 11.5% buff
ok imagining it.....seems that we are still mid in raid
vivid vessel
ok imagining it.....seems that we are still mid in raid <:KEKW:69611655120368435...
more meant like
there is no way we ever get a buff like this
while outlaw is litteraly the worse raid spec
out of all specs in the game rn
this isnt even a cap
stiff vector
oh ye ofc not
muted crest
vivid vessel
we are bottom on the absolute best case scenario for out spec and hero talent
this is the maximum boss damage outlaw can output
it will never be higher than that
late swallow
stiff vector
while outlaw is litteraly the worse raid spec
I mean if some1 doesnt think its outright the worst spec in raid rn, they will certainly agree after tuesday when mosto f the shit specs are getting buffed and the gap between outlaw and everyone else gets even bigger...but im sure that still wont be enogh for the devs to buff us
normal aurora
Hey folks, anyone noticing lucky coin failing to proc when hitting 7 stacks of the same coin sometimes?
stiff vector
its also kinda funny no1 even mentions that sub could use a buff purely because of a few bosses with dmg amps being decent for it. But like both specs absolutely deserve significant buffs and neither are getting shit, kinda crazy no?
grim spear
ye
stiff vector
usually blizzard kind of always buffs the absolute worst specs in raid by this point, of the tier, at least they definitely dont usually completely leave them out of tuning altogether
late swallow
everyone gets more gear as well
Same story every single season
cinder haven
yeah
grim spear
A desperate future, and it even has turbo boost.
stiff vector
ye I mean between getting more gear+turbo boost, this spec is omega cooked...like probably more cooked than it is been since DF s2?
and when the gap gets even bigger from that, im just worried even despite that big of a gap, theyre gonnna do the old "heres your pitiful 3% aura buff" which would just be the biggest slap in the face at that point
normal aurora
I'm looking at my logs for a loom kill and noticed i didn't get a lucky coin until 45 sec in, even though i hit 9 stacks of tails in the first 4 seconds https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/compare/hpZHmVGJkQn8Tv96/gG3xy9j6FNVnwkfR?fight=14%2C22&view=events&type=auras&source=17%2C-2
gaunt phoenix
its from the bte
open with macro > rtb
not macro > bte
AR + GS + BTE is really fucky results
normal aurora
Yea i know i messed up my open with a bte.. but that screws up lucky coin?
gaunt phoenix
ya it does
normal aurora
well shiiit.. thanks for the clarity
stiff vector
ye I remember testing ar+gs+bte on ptr and it would sometimes still bug lucky coin
normal aurora
I really don't like FB -_-
normal aurora
Yea, its like its building stacks faster than it can check if you've met the conditions for a lucky coin
stiff vector
I would say they definitely wont fix it at this point since its been like this since beta lol
gaunt phoenix
AR + GS seems to work correctly every time but adding a BtE seems to throw a wrench at coin processing
normal aurora
Is that the case for standard vanish windows too? Should we not do Vanish into AR + GS into BTE?
gaunt phoenix
yes you dont want to do all 3
stiff vector
just not all 3 in the same gcd
gaunt phoenix
the things we invent to be last in boss damage
normal aurora
so what do ya'll do for vanish windows? I've been doing something like dispatch->vanish->AR+GS->BTE
rotund zodiac
<@287474341304598539>
what addon that show player names in the LFG party?
I can only see classes
stiff vector
you guys dont want an arcane mage?
Idk I just joined the group
keen belfry
what addon that show player names in the LFG party?
i have no clue i was trying to find it
stiff vector
ye I never seen that where it shows the players names
royal ermine
yeah ima need that thing that shows the player names wtf
keen belfry
its gotta be a WA right
random geyser
Lol
stiff vector
aint no fucking way theyre fucking buffing BM even more when it was already going to be turbo broken and still give us nothing
that is'
just
unfuckingreal
random geyser
Not only will they beat u st we giving them better aoe
bright crane
keen belfry
bro what....this has gotta be a joke
its worded weirdly its a ST reduction of their buff but cleave buff
gaunt phoenix
No they reduced part of the original ST buff, but helped cleave a bit more
late swallow
LMAO
gaunt phoenix
You dont
stiff vector
i mean small reduction to ST, but thats a pretty big buff to DRs aoe no?
gaunt phoenix
I mean their cleave in raid is dog ass
keen belfry
if you dont play it in m+ buffing it wont change much in m+
gaunt phoenix
especially if they universally swap to dark ranger
fair oak
Dont think you'd play dr in keys pack leader 4pc is way too good
stiff vector
like DR in m+ is already going to do nuclear ST so the ST reduction is completely w/e, but that should be a pretty sizeable buff to their aoe. If it puts it relatively close to PL aoe I could see people playing it
random geyser
It's just a passive buff to light cleave fights in raid right?
random geyser
It seems like that what they want lol
random geyser
I am just imagining getting an 11% buff
grim spear
indigo token
we're so fucked
cinder haven
so BM buffs partially reverted
random geyser
I could one bring a buff people care about in weekly keys
BM buffs adjusted to be more cleave less st idk if I would call it reverted
random geyser
Bell tolls from 10 to 8% phantom pain 30% to 80%
arctic hollow
the urge to pick up the flavor of the month class is strong
random geyser
They just moved buff more to cleave
agile orchid
enjoy your outlaw buffs 
cinder haven
geh
keen belfry
yeah so these changes reduce BM pure ST gain down from 11.5% but help its raid cleave, i dont think its 5% m+ buff is changed
fair oak
i dont think these dr buffs are m+ buffs
Dont think you'll ever not play pack leader in keys especially with cdless talents
ocean lodge
its also kinda funny no1 even mentions that sub could use a buff purely because ...
shut down the discord
fair oak
Idk maybe for raid but m+ prob not
random geyser
Passive cleave in raid getting buffed is great lol that would be like just giving fb a little cleave for no reason
fair oak
See you tomorrow at 5pm when dire beast nlw benefits from beast cleave at 130% and they nerf some weird serpent sting talent
cinder relic
its also kinda funny no1 even mentions that sub could use a buff purely because ...
This isn't why sub is good exactly. A lot of it is burst aoe
lime lake
DR is unplayable in m+, this changes nothing for that
frank finch
random geyser
Make a post on forums link it and just have everyone go comment how they agree lol
hasty warren
worldly shale
Make a post on forums link it and just have everyone go comment how they agree l...
yes all 5 outlaw mains
lets go
normal aurora
Question, if Vanish into AR+GS doesn't trigger lucky coins, why do we do it?
random geyser
Could do it for rogue in general doesn't have to be just outlaw
gaunt phoenix
No it does
craggy barn
