insta nerf
#outlaw
pure folio
holding out for the WoW2 rework
proven ocean
whatever dev decides to play a certain class it'll get changes
otherwise it wont get shit
just like s2 DF outlaw
prob worst outlaw season of all time
wintry solar
im cautiously optimistic towards midnight because I've just got that feeling that the alleged rework is just changes made thatd usually be made between patches
proven ocean
im cautiously optimistic towards midnight because I've just got that feeling tha...
feels like u didnt play s1 tww outlaw did u
im sure the devs knew rogue was in shambles in day 1 alpha
and no one did anything about it
stiff vector
holding out for the rework really worked so well last time eh? Spec was just completely ignored and was awful with the excuse of "because its getting reworked soon", and then the "rework" happened and in reality it was a very half assed, rushed "rework" that was really just carried by 2 new talents and the spec being tuned high.
dapper fjord
i just got discouraged when i swapped my weapons tom some shitty daggers and tried assassination on some dummys and dealt the same aoe damage on target dummies even with terrible substats
cinder relic
Ur right u should bitch and moan in discord instead
That works great for the paladin players
dapper fjord
cuz outlaw and asassin have very different substas
proven ocean
Ur right u should bitch and moan in discord instead
chill out there green guy
u dont even play outlaw rn
cinder relic
I want the spec to be fun again, that's why I'm hoping for the rework to make it fun
Every version of Outlaw ends up being fun for different reasons
Excited to see what they end up doing
proven ocean
literally everyone talksabout how devs constantly ignore their classes and specs from time to time and ur typing these cringe ass words 
cinder relic
Huh
stiff vector
Im saying weve already seen their excuse of "its getting reworked soon, so ignoring the spec is fine", so I dont think they deserve any benefit of the doubt. They deserve every ounce of valid criticism.
cinder relic
Well we live in two worlds right
cinder relic
Im saying weve already seen their excuse of "its getting reworked soon, so ignor...
Where did I say ignoring the spec is fine lol
I said "Odds are this is the situation"
Not saying this is good, great, amazing, wonderful
cinder relic
It's a fact of the matter, the situation probably is this
pure folio
We are on the same team here..
cinder relic
It sucks, I hope the rework is fun
When the spec get reworked and changed thru Legion, BFA, SL, DF, I've always managed to find it fun and enjoyable
fathom bramble
as long as whatever they do doesn't violate the identity that outlaw has had for 8 years in the name of making it easier to learn it'll be chill
cinder relic
Yer
fathom bramble
also buff ambush
fathom bramble
HO and audacity should unironically switch places
so kir can have a generator in stealth that is not shit
cinder relic
Literally
fathom bramble
audacity could/should have a % bonus to ambushes it grants as well
so that it remains capstone strong
proven ocean
i dont mind ambush but i think it should be an optional gameplay
like s3 DF was giga fun without ambush
wintry solar
I think ambush should just do that
proven ocean
i enjoyed the shit out of it
but i also enjoyed s1 DF outlaw with ambush alot but thats when fth felt nice
and not totally awkward to play around with
fathom bramble
yeah opportunity could just be on both abilities by default
proven ocean
like
whichever does 0.1% more dps people will usually play that
unless it feels way worse
so idk how they can balance ambush being optional
fathom bramble
I mean if stealth talents are strong and you are taking subterfuge
you should be casting ambush
stiff vector
I mean it should be easily possible to do
wintry solar
Sinister Strike in subterfuge sounds like an oversight
Feels like it too
8 seconds of subt and I'm suppose to build with 5 sinister strikes? Yeah okay.
stiff vector
there s plenty of specs who have different gameplay options within their tree, shouldnt be very hard to make outlaws tree work with ambush if they are willing to put in some actual thought and work into the "rework"
fathom bramble
other than clearly having undertuned ambush this tier ambush builds vs. kir builds have had a long history of being reasonably close
I just think every build should be an ambush build
vanish being our window where your damage is suppose to feel good only to press SS 3 times in a row is just not it
proven ocean
I just think every build should be an ambush build
tell that to zac 
fathom bramble
I mean I know he hates ambush for his own reasons
dawn talon
I just think every build should be an ambush build
i just fucking hate pressing ambush man idk
fathom bramble
but realistically they could also just fix ambush having delayed CP gen
and we can all be happy
quaint mauve
i have an abusive relationship with ss
and stockholm syndrome
so i’ll never use ambush
fathom bramble
thoughts?
proven ocean
that sounds way too op ngl
fathom bramble
yeah
fathom bramble
softcap 5 is better than hardcap 8 on half these pulls anyway
proven ocean
ye
it'll be good for cleave too
but idk
maybe just soft cap at 2 honestly maybe idk
1
i mean
like
stiff vector
well I expect the hero trees to get some significant reworks for Midnight(especially rogues), so hopefully it makes trickster/fb a lot closer in terms of st/aoe and the dmg profile of both is significanlt improved
proven ocean
it does normal dmg to 1
then reduced to the rest
because outlaw just has giga high cleave on 1-8 anyway
cinder relic
wouldn’t that make fb go to for aoe?
Yeah? A lot of specs just have 1 hero talent for all content
proven ocean
1 hero talent being functional or working is fine
it just sucks when it doesnt work on both M+ and raid
fathom bramble
that was us with trickster last tier
stiff vector
id much rather have 1 overall good hero tree, than what outlaw has now with our hero trees
fathom bramble
and it was awesome other than KS being KS
proven ocean
ye
like if we had this KS
last tier
i think outlaw will go crazy
like alot of ppl will play it
quaint mauve
Yeah? A lot of specs just have 1 hero talent for all content
which i dont like personally :p
fathom bramble
might've even been an actual outlaw tier
proven ocean
ngl tho
1 major thing outlaw needs rn
is to shift alot of it's finisher dmg to builders
and reduce AR uptime by like 50%
fathom bramble
if both our hero talents were well designed and fun to interact with then it would be fine to have them have their own strengths
stiff vector
outlaw neeeds a lot of things rn lol
proven ocean
and reduce AR uptime by like 50%
but idk zac might hate this he hates everything anyway tho
quaint mauve
and reduce AR uptime by like 50%
i like the AR mini game though
quaint mauve
reducing uptime would feel like slow
wintry solar
but idk zac might hate this he hates everything anyway tho
he called me names last time I suggested exactly that
lime lake
proven ocean
ngl
fathom bramble
I don't think we need 100% AR uptime
fathom bramble
but reducing it to like 40-60% where it use to be doesn't actually fix anything
wintry solar
I put some dude on ignore because he was saying I wanted SS/Eviscerate back
fathom bramble
it's just a feels change
haughty wigeon
i mean need to hit restless blades and uhuh
to do thta
i think if class change is unchanged
fathom bramble
my ideal is like 50% AR uptime and 2 charges so we can put that uptime wherever we want
'
and have low but adaptable burst damage
proven ocean
but reducing it to like 40-60% where it use to be doesn't actually fix anything
well its just cooked atm way too fast and too difficult to play without smashing ur head on the spec everyday for a month just to be good at it again
stiff vector
adr uptime being reduced to 50% would be fine if it was moreso just a dmg buff, and not literally required for the spec to be playable in terms of resource economy.
fathom bramble
well its just cooked atm way too fast and too difficult to play without smashing...
if you can't handle the 0.8 gcd you would still get slammed at 40% AR uptime though
I guess it's a bit less punishing but like
it's the same skill check
proven ocean
well
most of the dmg is on finishers atm
so thats not entirely true
u get rewarded by having giga high cdr atm
which means u have to play extremely well
more finishers = more cdr = more ks = more coups = higher ar uptime
thats outlaw atm
fathom bramble
I mean sure the giga high cdr reward is higher now than in some previous versions
proven ocean
making the difficult part being just a portion of its entire rotation will make it considerably easier to deal with
fathom bramble
but that doesn't get fixed by lower ar uptime
proven ocean
because you'll have time to think when ur in downtime
quaint mauve
which means u have to play extremely well
thats whats fun abt it
proven ocean
and ur gonna be ready when it hits you
fathom bramble
it gets 'fixed' by nerfing vanish and AR directly
fathom bramble
being able to rest at a measly 1second gcp locked status I can see helping a bit I guess
proven ocean
the spec requires you to be a rogue main to be good at it
and u have to be really good at the game aswell
like
if u play it for 1-2 weeks ur gonna be good at it but
it'll take u a month to be playing it perfect again
any spec in the game doesn't really take that long
fathom bramble
the skill floor is currently probably too high for
I just feel like the best way to fix that is unironically more AR uptime and not less
fathom bramble
since you still get punished for fucking up AR in a 40-60% world
proven ocean
then they swapped back to sub or sin idk what they did
fathom bramble
but imagine if you had extra to go around and it's like a 110-125% world
proven ocean
like
fathom bramble
you fuck up and it's fine you get punished like a normal spec instead of double punished
proven ocean
idk what the rwf rogues thought when they swapped to outlaw
fathom bramble
I believe he said "Coggy overload"
proven ocean
like it was omega clear they wont be doing acceptable dps just swapping to it insta
random stirrup
rwf outlaws did half zac's dps
its funny because i dont think its worth the effort for them to practice it with how rarely its relevant
quaint mauve
if u want ol to be easier
wintry solar
since you still get punished for fucking up AR in a 40-60% world
it promotes smart usage of adr
proven ocean
its funny because i dont think its worth the effort for them to practice it with...
nah its worth obviously they just dont care
look at exile
hes playing poe 24/7
its not like hes investing in wow all the time
random stirrup
nah its worth obviously they just dont care
but how rarely will outlaw be good enough that it will make a tangible difference to play over the dagger specs
proven ocean
I just feel like the best way to fix that is unironically more AR uptime and not...
its just adding vigor to the spec
proven ocean
but how rarely will outlaw be good enough that it will make a tangible differenc...
i think the dagger excuse is extremely irrelevant
haughty wigeon
make AR cd lower
rather have another charge
proven ocean
even if they did have a weapon they'd still be omega microwaved
quaint mauve
rather have another charge
either or
haughty wigeon
its just adding vigor to the spec
i mean if class tree doesnt change
quaint mauve
both would have the same effect
haughty wigeon
thats whats gonna happen
proven ocean
im sure zac would've done better dps with a 707 wep
than their 720 daggers
on the DH boss
fathom bramble
if you ask me a 2nd charge of AR is needed basically no matter what
random stirrup
i think the dagger excuse is extremely irrelevant
i didnt mean weapons they have splits for that just that sub/sin will be strong enough or fit the fight profile well enough in 99% of situations
proven ocean
i agree
haughty wigeon
imagine apex talent is
fathom bramble
and has been needed for like 15 years
proven ocean
look
haughty wigeon
is second charge of ar
fathom bramble
has to replaced with +1 charge
random stirrup
this has to be deleted
fatebound will still want to cast on cd tho no
fathom bramble
we are heavily incentivized to basically waste AR uptime for instant effects
fathom bramble
and I agree that those are a big part of the probleem
proven ocean
100% sure
vague cape
yo lowkey
vague cape
is outlaw just sub 2.0?
proven ocean
?
proven ocean
sub is 1 sec gcd and u do ur dps in a 20-25 sec window and afk
vague cape
crackshot windows be feeling a lot like dance
proven ocean
what are u talking about
vague cape
kekw
random obsidian
this fixes everything
why does it fix everything? (legit question)
cinder haven
Are we cooking?
proven ocean
we talked like for 1-2 hrs dude
vague cape
good morning all my beautiful sword swinging enjoyers
cinder haven
I don’t care about that
cinder haven
But I wanna do dam
cinder haven
Good qol sure
proven ocean
this has to be gone too
i dont think anything should be tied to AR
bfa was good because of that
cinder haven
Doesn’t make the spec more viable though?
random obsidian
nah my question was more so "how does deleting improved AR fix most of the stuff" but after thinking about it for a bit i get that you'd just sit on AR instead of sending it on CD?
fathom bramble
2 charges of AR makes the spec more viable in realistic raid encounters
almost certainly
cinder haven
Fair enough
proven ocean
nothing forces u to press AR for a certain buff or a proc
thats what it should be
removes the shit rng
cinder haven
So move edge case to gs permanently?
vague cape
maybe just maybe ar needs to be removed
random obsidian
there are a lot of straight up dead and never to be good talents in the tree as well
vague cape
there's enough punishment for downtime / mistakes
cinder haven
And delete imp adr, yeah sure. Those changes are fine i guess
vague cape
we don't need ar as an extra layer
willow portal
is there any reason why my ar uptime is worse on 2fth ?
random obsidian
So move edge case to gs permanently?
delete GS too
cinder haven
delete GS too
True!
stiff vector
its nto just about making it less punishing/difficult tho, that only goes so far. Because even if you remove those factors from the spec right now, what is the pay off of the spec? Like it doesnt really do anything, it would still have a shit dmg profile, and not really be valuable or excel in any area.
vague cape
its nto just about making it less punishing/difficult tho, that only goes so far...
spec offers very good cleave with mininal st loss, at all times
cinder haven
its nto just about making it less punishing/difficult tho, that only goes so far...
That was kinda my point too yeah, some qol is fine tho
proven ocean
Rework Improved Adrenaline Rush into x2 AR charges and delete what it does atm, delete all buffs/procs tied to AR for example loaded dice, full cp refresh etc, full energy regen etc
vague cape
the "at all times" part is what is important
stiff vector
spec offers very good cleave with mininal st loss, at all times
ye...except that isnt remotely true right now. It used to be, but not anymore.
proven ocean
Rework Improved Adrenaline Rush into x2 AR charges and delete what it does atm, ...
i believe alot of people would enjoy this gameplay
haughty wigeon
execute niche
proven ocean
no cappy
haughty wigeon
would be nice
vague cape
But we need some kind of actually useful niche?
they can't just keep giving everyone funnel, right?
fathom bramble
I think it would be reasonable to give us a very strong execute
stiff vector
it also has shit prio now, no funnel, no burst still
haughty wigeon
like no cap
cinder haven
they can't just keep giving everyone funnel, right?
Or can they?
stiff vector
no execute
random obsidian
lowkey mfd is what ar shoulda been
ngl outlaw with MFD and SbS in ShL was so much fun
random obsidian
I want one of them back
fathom bramble
miss SbS so much
haughty wigeon
make us use gun
fathom bramble
they gave it to sin instead
vague cape
Or can they?
honestly idk what unclaimed niches exist in the melee space
fathom bramble
and then fuckin killed it
random obsidian
yeah
vague cape
outside of like spread cleave which wouldn't make sense
fathom bramble
waht if it does make sense to give the spec with a gun spreadcleave
vague cape
if outlaw got funnel wouldn't it directly compete with sin in that space
stiff vector
they just gave everything to the other 2 rogue specs(and other classes for that matter) that used to make outlaw good lol
cinder haven
Would be turbo broken probably
vague cape
what if they gave blade flurry the psychic link treatment?
fathom bramble
right now sin just has all the things
you can't give outlaw anything without it competing with sin space
magic shuttle
Sub and assa bladeflurrying better than outlaw in keys 
vague cape
you can't give outlaw anything without it competing with sin space
tbh i think outlaw handily wins on like 2-4
cinder haven
We can steal something from sin
vague cape
maybe they need to just dial back the shared mechanics between specs?
fathom bramble
especially since outlaw didn't get to steal any mechanics from the other 2
and they both just stole BF
I could go for that
cinder haven
Or let us share the strength of assa/sub a bit if they get our niche
fathom bramble
deathmark explosions can just cleave on their own
cinder haven
Is execute really the of you wanna steal though?
vague cape
we're backed into a corner where these flurry effects do probably too much of the lifting
stiff vector
the other 2 specs have largely had their dmg profiles improved, or maintained...all while not only has outlaw not gained anything, weve actually had our damage profile made demonstrably worse. So something has to change there.
fathom bramble
they probably should already do that
cinder haven
I’d rather have funnel i think
vague cape
take away nimble or caustic and their entire classes stop functioning with hero trees
fathom bramble
I don't think any spec in the game should have funnel at the levels we are seeing it
jolly geyser
Funnel and builders do more dmg
vague cape
im fairly sure funnel atm is still under control compared to old sub
vague cape
im talking about sin dhd and mage funnel
cinder haven
I want haste fixed so we can benefit from bl/pi
vague cape
sin funnel is in a timeout atm due to singular bug, normally it would be in competition for best funnel
jolly geyser
Or we could be able to choose what stat we get from bl
vague cape
id love for double hit proc chance to be variable
haste or mastery converts to double hit chance
but then skull n crossbones would need looking at
cinder haven
Double hit also on finishers when haste is over cap
Or something like that
Just chance for abilities to hit an extra time
haughty wigeon
havoc funnel
should straight up not exist
because souls is a horrible mechanic for havoc
but people stomach it cause big numbies
cinder haven
Idk how you would implement bf funnel tbh
haughty wigeon
like its so dumb
cinder haven
Probably needs a debuff to work from
Like gs or some shit
And then we are even more prevented from target swap
vague cape
to begin with if they made acro strikes just strong enough to take in st
cinder haven
But at least we get something for it
haughty wigeon
buff bladerush
vague cape
issue is gameplay power will always boil down to give no meaningful choices, let the player do everything at once
cinder haven
Make mg able to proc from all bf damage
Solves a few things
Funnel, mastery scaling
vague cape
any time any concession is made if the spec is to remain strong it needs to be very overtuned at what it can do
it's why ret can't ever exist at middle of the pack, either it's overtuned or sees 0 play
since 0 prio dam
haughty wigeon
it's why ret can't ever exist at middle of the pack, either it's overtuned or se...
i mean
no?
ret sees play cause its overwhelmingly popular due to alot of factors
ret can be dogshit and it will still have a large following
vague cape
ret sees play cause its overwhelmingly popular due to alot of factors
im talking at the top level
magic shuttle
Cool looking spec
vague cape
general playerbase it doesn't matter
and it's super popular bc of ease, thematic and dopamine
cinder haven
Cool looking spec
Pirates are cool though? Surely
vague cape
in terms of how it manifests its power
ret is an example of a spec that actually has to make decisions
and that dooms it
cinder haven
Guns! Super cool
magic shuttle
Pirates are cool though? Surely
Ye but a bit of visual upgrades would be nice for the spec
haughty wigeon
im talking at the top level
ah
wintry solar
Pirates are cool though? Surely
uhm but theyre not the Dungeons and Dragons version of rogue so it shouldnt be a pirate
cinder haven
Yeah
magic shuttle
Like if ghostly strike is sticking around, give the capstone a cool animation
vague cape
ah
like sure ret will clear all keys up to a point comfortably, and has great defensive utility for the team
haughty wigeon
outlaw would be more popular if it had more impactful visuals
vague cape
but there comes a point where being unnable to kill the big prio mob
cinder haven
uhm but theyre not the Dungeons and Dragons version of rogue so it shouldnt be a...
OK so it’s not for dnd purists
vague cape
makes the spec unplayable
viscid forge
When is this?
vague cape
or you stop pressing divine storm and your spec does no dmg
magic shuttle
Sub is almost perfect I think all it needs is a cool visual on sec tech and then it's gonna be giga
vague cape
and still lower prio due to hammers trolling
fathom bramble
When is this?
sorry that was a joke
lime lake
uhm but theyre not the Dungeons and Dragons version of rogue so it shouldnt be a...
pirates would absolutely be rogues in dnd
lime lake
in fact swashbuckler is literally a subclass for rogue
vague cape
thematically outlaw getting execute makes sense
fathom bramble
dnd rogues have basically every imaginable theme
vague cape
and would serve to differentiate it from all the other flurry style classes
lime lake
its the catchall class for a martial fighter that isnt straight up fighter
vague cape
actually i guess shadow, fire, mm and sin all flurry and have execute
genuinely first step to them fixing outlaw is make ar passive
they need to bring up the floor
for low end performance
cinder haven
All we really have is mobility and survivability
haughty wigeon
i feel like
cinder haven
But the mobility is a lot of fun
vague cape
they could also just 2x the dmg on killing spree
haughty wigeon
they can fix alot of the "theme" issues
cinder haven
Was even more fun with acro
haughty wigeon
if they just go balls deep in the pirate theme again
vague cape
I want coup to hit 3 times instead of 1
it does hit 3 times
rotund zodiac
really?!?
vague cape
yes
rotund zodiac
Cool
vague cape
its why we get slow refunds on sub
fathom bramble
it's the damage of a normal dispatch split across 3 hits
normal for the amount of combo points you spend
rotund zodiac
Which means it can procs cto 3 times?
rotund zodiac
cinder haven
coup is a bit sad
fathom bramble
coup shouldn't exist
cinder haven
Even with the tier set it feels kinda meh to press
fathom bramble
the capstone should be extra casts of KS
rotund zodiac
Imagine we get a bug as tier set effect
cinder haven
It’s a theme by now
vague cape
Imagine we get a bug as tier set effect
mild vigil
the capstone should be extra casts of KS
see but you can't do that b/c the sub equivalent of KS is sectech
and if they change it for one it changes for the other
vague cape
see but you can't do that b/c the sub equivalent of KS is sectech
I mean
cinder haven
We take your 0.8 gcd you have to get haste to get it back
mild vigil
can you imagine how giga broken if sub got even more sectechs
vague cape
it would go crazy for sub too
vague cape
can you imagine how giga broken if sub got even more sectechs
tbh idk, coup is very good for sub
wintry solar
pirates would absolutely be rogues in dnd
that was just what guy told me
jolly geyser
forgor what this was about already
vague cape
sectec has a lot of diminishing returns for extra casts
cinder haven
Pistol shot critters
rotund zodiac
forgor what this was about already
It was fun while it last
cinder haven
If you don’t do this you are not outlaw
vague cape
id like for a gunless playstyle for outlaw down one side of the tree
willow portal
is gambit just a sad place as outlaw?
cinder haven
is gambit just a sad place as outlaw?
Ye
willow portal
:(
rotund zodiac
is gambit just a sad place as outlaw?
First pull 💀
willow portal
first pull is mad whack
rotund zodiac
Last boss intermission makes me cringe
cinder haven
Forced downtime bosses…
fathom bramble
see but you can't do that b/c the sub equivalent of KS is sectech
extra casts of sectech wouldn't be bad and it's also not entirely true that it has to be the same for both specs
a lot of specs have meaningful differences in their nodes on the same hero talent tree
and blizz being more open to doing that more would help them stop stepping on their own toes
cinder haven
We had a cook a while back about adr only being reduced when you use a skill
Would solve the downtime issue
Like it’s a number of charges instead of duration
Pressing adr or vanish adds charges
Using a gcd removes a charge
willow portal
i really dont get why i seem to play worse and have worse ar uptime with 2fth
that doesnt make sense
cinder haven
that doesnt make sense
I can’t really think of anything
What did you drop for 2pt fth?
fathom bramble
Adrenaline rush lasts like 120 seconds or something and gives 20(hasted) charges when cast. Abilities that consume energy will consume a charge to reduce their cost by 20% and their Global cooldown by 0.2 seconds.
willow portal
What did you drop for 2pt fth?
gs
fathom bramble
there was also an adjacent cook about making it a passive where you gain charges overtime effected by restless blades
willow portal
how much of a single target loss is not having gs btw?
cinder haven
Very strange
jolly geyser
maybe giga bad rng
cinder haven
there was also an adjacent cook about making it a passive where you gain charges...
Right, those ideas are still really neat imo
Best qol change i can think of really
random obsidian
Adrenaline rush lasts like 120 seconds or something and gives 20(hasted) charges...
I don't think outlaw should have a spell that sometimes reduces gcd, the feeling isnt great when you "get slower" even tho you could argue it's kinda the same as lust for most other classes
Most outlaw players would probably enjoy a 0.8 gcd baseline
willow portal
Maybe 6-8% if you account for that
so only 6% then or what?
willow portal
fathom bramble
I don't think outlaw should have a spell that sometimes reduces gcd, the feeling...
I think converted AR to a charge system would mean that with proper play you have it up all the time anyway
assuming no other changes to the spec
I don't really mind having a variable GCD though
and at the same time I could live with perma 0.8 and AR doing something else
vague cape
Adrenaline rush lasts like 120 seconds or something and gives 20(hasted) charges...
why not just make it passive at that point?
fathom bramble
because pay off for good play existing is a good thing
vague cape
agreed, the question id pose is there not enough reward for good play inherent to outlaw?
fathom bramble
or even just interacting with your character to get an output of some kind
vague cape
ar being the skill check isn't really major, it just makes disaster situations a lot more
cinder haven
That’s ds tho?
vague cape
bad
random obsidian
wouldn't it be "better" if AR was more about throughput than "gameplay"? since with proper play you'd have it up all the time as you say, would be nice if it didnt feel awful when you don't have it up?
torpid fiber
I think when we're a spec without a skill check in the form of a CD window we do need something like AR or similar
cinder haven
I mean the charge system is still s skill check
torpid fiber
i think either adr needs to be hugely lower uptime or much more consistent uptime through real fights though
fathom bramble
ar being the skill check isn't really major, it just makes disaster situations a...
AR and how it interacts with the spec currently feeds into all of our skills checks in every way
the proposed change reduces that skill check
cinder haven
And you can tune it to force time without adr more easily
frail veldt
well the problem with ar being a rewrading skill check is that sometimes the game takes away your agency to express skill via things like RP or downtime
and then we all have to feel the pain of being bad at outlaw
haha
fathom bramble
it being charges or more readily pausable or 2 charges of the skill are all ways to give us that agency back
while maintaining significant parts of the skill cap
cinder haven
Yeah i think it would be fine
frail veldt
I think adr can be rewarding in terms of dps
but not so rewarding in terms of gameplay
such that when you lose adr due to downtime
it doenst "feel" as bad
you could accomplsih that by making the energy outside of adr higher and lowering adrs energy gain but adding some % damage gain to it
so that having high adr uptime still rewards the player on the meters
cinder haven
If you move to gcd reduction and energy boost from adr, what does it do?
frail veldt
but doesnt punish the playstyle of the spec as much when it goes down
frail veldt
If you move to gcd reduction and energy boost from adr, what does it do?
yeah I think thats good it means the gameplay feeling doesnt diminish the worse you play
outlaw is so unfun when youre learning for that reason
but if outlaw was still fun when learning but your meters were just lower
I htink that would be a good tradeoff
cinder haven
But adr literally does nothing then
frail veldt
well im saying add % damage to adr
fathom bramble
it would be complete reimagining of AR
random obsidian
If you move to gcd reduction and energy boost from adr, what does it do?
rework mastery and make ADR interact with mastery
frail veldt
like make it give you a damage buff
random obsidian
frail veldt
I think you dont need to completely remove the gcd and energy from adr
just reduce the energy gain and increase out of adr energy
like from 50% energy gain to like 25%, just enough to offset the gcd reduction so you dont have less energy during adr
vague cape
just let ks be our main longish cd
cinder haven
rework mastery and make ADR interact with mastery
I had another cook idea for mastery. Make all bf damage able to proc mg on main target. Make mg not flurry, scale mg proc chance with mastery.
vague cape
and you dont have an illness every time a fight has downtime
cinder haven
It’s funnel
frail veldt
I love chain reactions like that
I wonder if theres server considerations for that
proc on proc on proc
in aoe
sounds like hell code wise
cinder haven
But if mg doesn’t flurry i think it is not hard on server
proven ocean
affliction has a proc on procc on proc on proc
frail veldt
yeah as long as you remove the flurry part of mg itd be fine
proven ocean
atleast it did in legion
idk if it still does
there are many overlapping procs in the game
frail veldt
recursive stuff seems sketchy haha
as long as it only goes 1 layer deep prob fine
I was thinking at first of tobfons idea but didnt see the mg not flurry
cuz if you didnt have that part then flurry could proc mg which would flurry which would proc mg
it would literally echo forever haha
cant wait to see what they cook up lol
glass yew
!log
how improve ST dmg. guys 🙁
fathom bramble
back when DFA did the little fan of knives on cast you would lag significantly from all the MG procs procing BF
in mass aoe it could be 1000 hits in 1 hit
cinder haven
Blade rush can still proc on all mobs i think
cinder haven
Just one hit tho
True
Idk how good mastery would be in my cook tho
It’s really only st and funnel
cinder haven
At least you would have the option of gearing for funnel
fathom bramble
combine it with my mastery cook
and then your cooking with gas
it would actually be insanely powerful for funnel btw
if mastery was tuned anywhere near the other stats
agile orchid
no tuning last night 
willow portal
That’s ds tho?
i mean ye, there is single target in there too or no?
cinder haven
Sure but if you wanna see impact on ST you have to sim st obviously
willow portal
shouldnt 2fth do more aoe dam?
cinder haven
If you sim 8t patchwerk or something 2pt fth will win over gs
Don’t remember where the breakpoint is
But some number of targets
Why still no tuning hmm
wintry solar
In classic outlaw fashion
wintry solar
Why still no tuning hmm
They're merely saving the outlaw tuning and putting the work into outlaw rework
tulip quarry
Hmmm i Wonder if there will be a way to Cook something with both sleight of hand and loaded dice XD
torpid fiber
maybe but also I don't see the point
tulip quarry
Lowering variance
fathom whale
bruh why my overalls so rubbish tf is going on
twilit rivet
speaking of overalls
i'm quite pleased with that
last season 4set, 693 ilvl
only a 9 priory though but still
jolly geyser
I miss that 4set
prime drum
Can some1 help me understand when to vanish. I have looked at the guide, but my brain is not working
daring oxide
Anyone know if the cracked keystones compensation ignores crest cap or is it still nuggets
Bugged*
cinder haven
Hmmm i Wonder if there will be a way to Cook something with both sleight of hand...
check out #1065730004920586350 I have cooked this already
you can drop the versa talent for SOH, but it needs some new rtb rules
they are described a bit here
#1065730004920586350 message
for trickster it sims on par with the versa talent if you make the adjustments to the rtb rules
for fatebound it's a bit better even
but it's experimental stuff
cedar kernel
jolly geyser
Anyone know if the cracked keystones compensation ignores crest cap or is it sti...
Still bugged on eu,tried this morning
cinder haven
I got notification that I got the crests when I logged in
but, I didn't actually get them because I'm capped
so still doesn't work after 3 attempts to fix it I guess
quaint mauve
i’m 704 with new set
twilit rivet
@quaint mauve
quaint mauve
i was in vc with tank though and he was pulling really well for me
twilit rivet
love when it happens
quaint mauve
5 targets on 1st boss 🤤
twilit rivet
it's almost like heaven
hasty warren
Hi pirates
wintry solar
Hello
hasty warren
yarrr
desert tendon
Me pirate
topaz ivy
Is it worth macroing cudgel equip into BF, and say swapping back to a higher ilvl from Dispatch
Given when we use BF as a generator is when Cudgel should be used, it doesnt sound stupid in my head - but i may be missing something
Reset from vanish might be the gotcha, but we always get a BF within each vanish window
hasty warren
Is it worth macroing cudgel equip into BF, and say swapping back to a higher ilv...
weapon swaping take a gcd
topaz ivy
aaaaaah
hasty warren
I don't think u want to macro it like this
topaz ivy
certainly not, many thanks
hasty warren
imo most efficient way is to swap it between packs when u know there will be more/less than 5 target
or boss
as u want to restealth a this moment too just remember to swap weapon
topaz ivy
Playing with a boomy and BM, never any packs less than 5 😅 "8 is the perfect number i say" and there we are with 20 mobs
wintry solar
You re a grown man now
The shops are randomized in a way that everytime you enter one, they keep changing.
I spent a whole hour trying to get any sword variant lol
torpid fiber
!wa
ornate heathBOT
Class packs:
torpid fiber
what gcd tracker wa do people use?
desert tendon
They usually use the details built in one
wintry solar
100% rando 100% completion
I'll do everything rando BUT I won't do glitchless
We'll meet halfway
desert tendon
yea ofc do it with all glitches available, that s basic
wintry solar
I meant no logic
desert tendon
has to have logic
wintry solar
I'm not good enough for no logic skips
wintry solar
Soon I will, but I want to 100% it and needing to do glitches might hinder that
This is so exciting. I think more games should have built in randomizers
daring oxide
let me flex on you though
Fatebound, same key
wintry solar
I'm team Vai
covert kestrel
daring oxide
fatebound is broken no cappy
wintry solar
I just caught the fatebound key
quaint mauve
Fatebound, same key
how tf
novel bronze
Is a german, Im team Klostar. Because he´s the star of the toilet!
daring oxide
I love Klostar
quaint mauve
pls inform me
daring oxide
pins
frank finch
is that just the new vanish into gs ?
frank finch
solo said that wouldnt happen much but i feel like it happens alot
daring oxide
it happens often in m+
deft helps cdr a lot
and quite often you can hold at the end of the pack
so you can insta do like 20mil+ burst when opening on next pack
the only issue...
is that if you dont tricks
the tank legit cannot get aggro off you for a while
cos of the tails nuke
so dont forget to press tricks!
quaint mauve
or vanish > ADR+GS
this seems really cringe but ima try it
quaint mauve
how’s it feel in actual aoe though
daring oxide
pretty bursty?
and if you have combat numbers on
you'll see lucky coin hits firing out like crazy
plus tails
quaint mauve
what talent tree r u running
quaint mauve
:p
daring oxide
but apparently without KS can be good too
KIR
but trickster will most likely do more AOE damage
but... FB wins in ST a lot
daring oxide
yes
quaint mauve
that’s good
quaint mauve
yeah bro lowkey
daring oxide
as trickster
quaint mauve
might be fb gaming
quaint mauve
yeah i only do like 3.3-3.5 ST in keys
quaint mauve
idk abbreviations ngl
daring oxide
i need to try dropping KS for TV
frank finch
Fatebound, same key
link build
quaint mauve
yeah send uhhh import code if u can :p
quaint mauve
was watching dexter but now u have me intrigued
want to do a key
i also need to set up the macros now
so all it is
is wanting to vanish after gs
and wanting to line up gs and adr
frank finch
want to line up vanish and gs
daring oxide
CQQAA0tw2gAD7pPTLoW5IGZDeAAM2mBjZGzMzMDzwDMmZmhZmZmWmxsNDAAAAAA22mZGMzwCsMLDAAAAzMDYwsNbmZmRzMbMLssNtwiZA
quaint mauve
ill lyk if i troll this hoa
quaint mauve
it went well for me in priory and that has big pulls
when i open from actual stealth i wanna /cancelaura
right?
daring oxide
yes
novel bronze
CQQAA0tw2gAD7pPTLoW5IGZDeAAM2mBjZGzMzMDzwDMmZmhZmZmWmxsNDAAAAAA22mZGMzwCsMLDAAAA...
WHich one is better in lower keys. Started gearing my outlaw. (new 4p equipped) Trick or fate?
novel bronze
yea. Reckon ho or kir?
pearl topaz
and fatebound in keys is basically reliant on that weird bug so i wouldnt go learning it straight up
novel bronze
Nooo. mained it 2 seasons in DF
daring oxide
ok then KIR?
novel bronze
Ya. sounds fine
daring oxide
Nooo. mained it 2 seasons in DF
CQQAA0tw2gAD7pPTLoW5IGZDeAAM2mBjZGmZmZYGegxMzMMzMz0yMmtZAAAAAAw22MzMMzMWglZZAAAAYmZAwY2MMkBmFWoF2MA
you can try it with LD and SOH
novel bronze
That looks fine. thanks
Just need something else for m+. My enhance is kinda meh in there
ornate heathBOT
Pre-key fuckery
RTB TWICE some time before entering dungeon to get 4 Supercharger stacks. These stacks don't have a duration.- Just before key placement use
AR into 
KS to get 
Loaded Dice and 2 free Unseen Blade procs. - KS will consume one stack of Supercharger but the 3rd+4th stack are removed when the key starts anyway.
- During the bubble, DO NOT RTB or recast AR as you will lose the CPs and Supercharger stacks when the bubble ends.
- After the bubble drops use RTB again (now back at 4 stacks of Supercharger).
- Before entering the first pack
BF into 
Stealth. - Open onto the pack with AR into
BtE.
compact narwhal
so whats the deal w cancelaura
we only use that for opener then vanish after
?
daring oxide
so whats the deal w cancelaura
deets in the pins
compact narwhal
ik im reading but confused
daring oxide
i just use my cancelaura macro all the time
as my ADR button
/cancelaura Stealth
/cast Adrenaline Rush
/cast Ghostly Strike
this one
compact narwhal
yes but press adr like you normally would
novel bronze
if u are after fotm feeling
nah. if I FOTM, I wouldnt main enhance and get me benched for most of raid progress 😄 OUtlaw is just the most fun rogue!
daring oxide
but you dont really normal ADR much anymore
compact narwhal
only w gs?
daring oxide
nah. if I FOTM, I wouldnt main enhance and get me benched for most of raid progr...
you are a brother ❤️
daring oxide
only w gs?
use GS to open from vanish too
novel bronze
And why would you use daggers, when you can use bad ass swords! 😄
daring oxide
but hold vanish for GS
not hold gs for vanish
so if you have a vanish charge up
and GS comes off cd
build to finisher, or if you want to be more efficient, build to 5cp or more, vanish > GS > BTE
cinder haven
I'm thinking you can probably send adr if GS has like more than 40s left on CD and no vanish charge
Also wondering if we should really delay vanish if ks is available on fb
Probably doesn't matter
KS is weird on fb
wet nest
unfortunately i didnt clip it but is there a known bug for AR to sometimes pandemic, i had 27 secodns last key and it was not a visual bug
mossy shell
Is it ever worth it to send KS with low combo points this season?
cinder haven
unfortunately i didnt clip it but is there a known bug for AR to sometimes pande...
I have never seen that even once I think
quaint sable
Def had adren over 20 a bunch of times
cinder haven
Is it ever worth it to send KS with low combo points this season?
Possibly if coup is also up
quaint sable
Also had the bug where arden just doesnt tick down even tho I aint in stealth thats always fun. It dissapears after the next vanish but is interesting when it happens
mossy shell
I was also thinking, if I need to vanish to save AR, and I only have a few globals. Maybe I would want to KS at low combo points, or cancel it really early, for the coup stacks before vanish.
but idk the cooldown is so long
cinder haven
On FB I don't know, I don't understand what role ks really fills for fb
quaint sable
Just a high dmg finisher. So basically a bigger dispatch
So sending it low cp doesnt seem worth
quaint sable
And refunds cp so just an efficient high dmg finisher
cinder haven
But fb doesn't seem to care much about lost cdr on ks for example
quaint sable
I dont think sending low makes sense on fb tho since there is no innate benefit from just casting it low
cinder haven
Seems fine to vanish with ks available for example
quaint sable
Ye def
cinder haven
Fitting
proven ocean
Indicates that all of us are cooked
cinder haven
Or we cook a lot?
simple tide
yo lads im trying to figure out something
proven ocean
quaint sable
Def that too but the 2 can cooexist
quaint mauve
holy fuck
proven ocean
Maybe we do cook alot
compact narwhal
so let me get this straight
quaint mauve
Whatcha trying?
fb in M+
compact narwhal
you're always holding GS for vanish correct?
quaint mauve
with the new uhh pin stuff
cinder haven
Yeah kinda fun
desert tendon
simple tide
why is there on the log for keys people doing 3 bte for 1 dispatch and i find myself having a close 1:1 ratio even tho, it feels like in my crackshots i dont have many proc maybe is there something im missing ?
cinder haven
you're always holding GS for vanish correct?
Only exception is if you would lose adr
quaint mauve
with insane burst
quaint sable
Only exception is if you would lose adr
no u hold vanish for gs not other way around
compact narwhal
adr>gs
quaint mauve
you're always holding GS for vanish correct?
no ur holding vanish for GS , usually you dont wanna do it the other way around
cinder haven
We hold GS as little as possible
proven ocean
Ye
mossy shell
if it's one finisher away though?
proven ocean
Dont hold it for too long
cinder haven
Sometimes hold adr for GS + vanish
compact narwhal
fuck my peabrain cant comprehend
mossy shell
maybe two?
proven ocean
Like ideally u want to use GS to get the value of it’s cp too
compact narwhal
tell me how to do it like im slow (i actually am)
quaint mauve
fuck my peabrain cant comprehend
its not hard in practice
proven ocean
maybe two?
I dont think this happens enough in sims for us to know u can ask zac he plays alot i dont
Usually GS is feelycraft
cinder haven
Like ideally u want to use GS to get the value of it’s cp too
Yeah condition for the GS vanish should probably allow 4-5 CP
inland acorn
why is there on the log for keys people doing 3 bte for 1 dispatch and i find my...
Link log
Bte should always trigger dispatch
proven ocean
Yeah condition for the GS vanish should probably allow 4-5 CP
Ye thats what i used to do
4-5cp into gs is that what u mean?
Sometimes 6 aswell ofc
Into a 7
simple tide
Link log
not like that its more the number of cast of bte compared to the number of cast dispatch
simple tide
iguess details count the automatic one as a cast
cinder haven
4-5 CP into vanish GS bte
proven ocean
Ye
cinder haven
Haven't simmed it yet
proven ocean
Thats like default but i dont remember what minmaxes i used to do
cinder haven
Just feelycraft
quaint mauve
i have GS macrod onto BTE only for when im in stealth
proven ocean
But i remember if i had a specific combo of procs and fth i slammed it on cd
quaint mauve
and that feels good
proven ocean
Regardless of cp
mossy shell
Just feelycraft
that's all outlaw is tbh
proven ocean
I think it was broadside+full aoe+ max fth or 3
quaint mauve
zeross
cinder haven
i have GS macrod onto BTE only for when im in stealth
You can actually refund the CD in one window i think
quaint mauve
do u think this out competes trickster
cinder haven
And then you'll send GS too early
quaint mauve
the bug of hope?
cinder haven
Like if you have TB and proc ace a lot
proven ocean
What competes trickster
cinder haven
I also use that bte macro but I'm considering dropping it
proven ocean
Im a lil lost here hm guy
quaint mauve
What competes trickster
fb with this new uhhh tech
inland acorn
not like that its more the number of cast of bte compared to the number of cast ...
like i said link log, cuz i'm not sure if i understand what you mean
cinder haven
FB in keys is what they talk about
inland acorn
BtE casted from stealth will always cast dispatch, which is counted in logs under BtE
proven ocean
What new uhhh tech
quaint mauve
it feels better in my humble opinion
cinder haven
It's probably better for pug keys with not huge pulls
cinder haven
Forbidden
cinder haven
Idk is it?
cinder haven
More st, bit more prio, bit more burst
quaint mauve
only dislike is no one hour tricks