outlaw

[vivid vessel]

its just that

execute has better value

than normal damage

thats it

[cinder relic]

Yeh it's not like it's a race or anything

Sin just gains value in execute, where the boss is also taking additional damage

[worldly shale]

i mean

yeah

[craggy barn]

clearly outlaw is the most popular rogue spec

[fathom bramble]

fake additional damage

if a damage amp kicks in at a certain % life then it's not actually a real damage amp

it's just the boss having less life

if it's sin for execute for the timed phase to outrace it then yeah

[vivid vessel]

what

no

[fathom bramble]

but the damage amp is just not real and doesn't actually effect anything other than your parse

[vivid vessel]

it does tho

its like making the execute longer

[violet ferry]

!fuu

[ornate heath]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vivid vessel]

im confused honestyl

if the boss takes more damage after a certain hp treshold

you are better if you also do more damage after that certain hp treshold

[fathom bramble]

only if that phase is actually deemed more important

which has nothing to do with the damage amp

[vivid vessel]

why

you want to kill boss as fast as possible

thts how raid works

you do more damage

[worldly shale]

more damage=more damage

[vivid vessel]

so you kill boss sooner

[worldly shale]

right?

[fathom bramble]

because the amp kicks in at a % life the damage you are doing looks better on logs but isn't actually more important for kill speed

it's mathematically the same as if the boss just hit himself for damage at 50%

[vivid vessel]

ye idk

i dont understand what you mean

[fathom bramble]

disregarding the short window below 50% life where he doesn't have the amp yet for simplicity

[pure folio]

hes saying, its the same as if the boss had 50% less hp and no damage amp

or w/e the damage amp % equates to

since it isnt a strict timing for the amp phase

[fathom bramble]

because the boss has 33% increased damage taken for 50% of his max life the damage amp always does the same amount of damage to the boss regardless of whether your group is weighted to p1 or p2 damage

he effectively just takes 12.5% of his max life on the phase transition

[vivid vessel]

idk im stupid i guess

[fathom bramble]

actually if he took damage instead of having an amp execute classes would be even better 🤔

think of it this way, he has 2 HP bars

P1 and P2

[vivid vessel]

ah

i get it

ok

[fathom bramble]

P2 HP bar progresses 33% faster(25% less HP)

but that doesn't necessarily make damage to the p2 bar better

[inland mango]

!wa

[ornate heath]

Class packs:

• Guy's - Afenar's Edit Luxthos Edit
• Zac's Group Devlin
  Utilities:
• Combo Point Standalone
• Last GCD in Crackshot window / Subterfuge timer
• Ace refund sound trigger
• RtB buffs tracker (shows normal, CTO, and KIR'd buffs)
• Unseen Blade tracker
  Fun:
• Ace max combo counter and Ace current combo counter

[fathom bramble]

it's the fact that it is a timed phase that can make damage to the p2 bar better

[vivid vessel]

no wait i dont get it

[worldly shale]

[vivid vessel]

cause that would be true if the hp of the boss went up to 100 %

when he phased to p2

but since he is in exec range

a spec that has an exec profile gain value still or

[fathom bramble]

that makes the p2 bar stronger for execute yes, but that has nothing to do with the amp

it will look better on logs though

but unless you value p2 damage more than p1 damage it's not actually better

like everything that can make sin better for the fight still applies with or without the amp

it's just about racing the timer in p2 before you die or run out of space

though with more gear I seriously doubt anyone is running up against that timer ever again

[worldly shale]

i mean i dont think switching from sub to assa or even outlaw to assa

would make

[fathom bramble]

like there's a core concept that I feel like I'm failing to explain, but if a damage amp is only present at a certain %HP threshold on the boss then it's not a real damage amp

[worldly shale]

a big difference

[fathom bramble]

it's just reducing the size of their HP bar

[worldly shale]

zac is CRANKING

outlaw really is

a spec of all time

[fathom bramble]

like imagine if the first half of AR CD was somehow 90 seconds and the 2nd half progressed 50% faster and became 60 seconds

you wouldn't say restless had more value in the 2nd half

since you still need time and restless to get to the progression amp

[frail veldt]

yeah exactly

[fathom bramble]

maybe that's not quite a solid example since bosses don't passively lose hp over time

[vivid vessel]

HM

[vivid vessel]

tyty

cranked that boss

[fathom bramble]

which boss is that even

[frail veldt]

wow such a melee tier huh

[vivid vessel]

dimensius hc

[fathom bramble]

makes sense

[mighty pivot]

that's almost 50 times what the assa rogue did, nerf outlaw?

[vivid vessel]

last lil dimmy split of the tier

[worldly shale]

DEMOLISHED

[vivid vessel]

i think

i understand thatr

but im unsure

if i actually understand

but i think

i trolled playing assa then

cause outlaw can help on webs

so its just striclty better

if it does the same damage

[fathom bramble]

if the p2 timer was getting you then assa could still be the right choice

[vivid vessel]

i dont think it was

well p2 is harder i feel

to heal

so i guess

or idk

is it

eh

whatever

the boss was easy

[fathom bramble]

it's also an easy boss

so does it really matter in the end

[worldly shale]

dont show this image to blizzdaddy

[fathom bramble]

I wonder how much 1 person afking in a heroic impacts our standing on warcraftlogs

do they cull massive outliers for the statistics page

[vivid vessel]

nah they dont

[mighty pivot]

they don't dont you remember last season where one outlaw parse was like 50% worse than everyone else?

[worldly shale]

i mean the thing about outlaw is

[vivid vessel]

cause like

ye

you know how the bars

are like these

and you remember in s2 we had like

a massive line on the left

ye

this one

[fathom bramble]

nice

[mighty pivot]

what a legend

[fathom bramble]

so if I use my 2 accounts to have 4 rogues instead of 2 rog 2 pal then when I need to afk a 2nd character in a split I can reduce outlaws standing on warcraftlogs 🤔

[worldly shale]

HOLY

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-patrick-star-noted-notes-gif-26231953

[fathom bramble]

or I tab back and forth to brick both parses and still contribute damage 🤔

[strong halo]

FUCKKKKKKK i wasted 30 gilded upgrading the wrong piece

[mighty pivot]

[worldly shale]

[vivid vessel]

i actually did more as zacrebleu @fathom bramble

zacrebleu

[fathom bramble]

that's like

[worldly shale]

i mean

[fathom bramble]

17 ilvls down

[vivid vessel]

with cb bugged

so it didnt work

cause of the assa fatebound bug

[frail veldt]

bro my friend had this issue

how do you resolve it

I figured it was cuz of fatebound assa stuff

he was playing sub and culdnt press CB

[vivid vessel]

could have been worse

[vivid vessel]

logout

[frail veldt]

LOOOOOOOOOOOOL

[frail veldt]

oh is that it?

[vivid vessel]

ye

after playing assa fatebound

if you wanna play sub

[strong halo]

lmao at least i threw my gilded on heroic tier pants

[vivid vessel]

you need to relog

[strong halo]

kidna shit but oh well

[frail veldt]

good to know I figured this was the case

I told him to relog but idk if he did or not

working as intended

[vivid vessel]

ye

[smoky matrix]

Do you guys have any useful macros yall run around with ? Outlaw is so fast paced sometimes I feel like playing catch up 😂

[frail veldt]

as trickster you can macro gs

thats it though

!macro

[ornate heath]

Macroing gs is relatively "ok", be aware that it wont ever be entirely optimal: target swapping in m+ or putting it on a dying target for example. You can macro it to all your abilities.

[covert kestrel]

There are the fb macros in the pin, and can non-optimally bind gs to stuff, but law has like negative button bloat

[frail veldt]

on fatebound theres some macros to use for ST. Info on that is in the pins

[strong halo]

@vivid vessel ok tbh i see what youre saying about Streets being a Sub key, That shits easy, and basically just 4 bosses

[smoky matrix]

Ty fellas

[vivid vessel]

well

• because sub is op

you know

[mighty pivot]

is zac more anti-sub now than he was anti-assa?

[covert kestrel]

Zacs second favorite spec is sub

But it's not outlaw

So

Assa comes below many non rogue specs lol

[mighty pivot]

assa is likely only above aug

[fathom bramble]

aug is a different kind of hatred though

instead of just simply being unfun it play it can actively ruin the game for people not playing it

[random stirrup]

swapping back to assa, swapping to a non fatebound build, and then swapping to sub works for me usually

[keen belfry]

!fuu

[ornate heath]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[smoky matrix]

Can’t find it in the pins. Would you mind dropping the jump for the thread here please 🙏🏽

[hasty warren]

first pin message

[gaunt phoenix]

it's the first pinned message, you are using an AR + GS macro for the opener, and then you can reuse it for vanish.

You open with macro > rtb > bte

[smoky matrix]

Gotcha! Ty

So would you say it’s bad practice to GS bind to all your abilities or just use the cancel aura macro and just go from there

I mean I can see the problem arising if you got a low health mob and send a GS into it

[frail veldt]

As trickster it's not so bad but as fatebound it can cost you a few percent

[worldly shale]

I mean idk why u would do that tbh

Its not like we have

[frail veldt]

I don't know an exact amount but I would say fatebound is def more impacted

[worldly shale]

Gazzilion buttons

i only macrod it to adr

for fatebound

[teal wing]

!wa

[ornate heath]

Class packs:

• Guy's - Afenar's Edit Luxthos Edit
• Zac's Group Devlin
  Utilities:
• Combo Point Standalone
• Last GCD in Crackshot window / Subterfuge timer
• Ace refund sound trigger
• RtB buffs tracker (shows normal, CTO, and KIR'd buffs)
• Unseen Blade tracker
  Fun:
• Ace max combo counter and Ace current combo counter

[smoky matrix]

Is fate bound better than trickster for M+

[gaunt phoenix]

generally no

[plucky sonnet]

trickster is significantly better in AOE

[smoky matrix]

Ah okay

[plucky sonnet]

it's also very far behind in ST though

[smoky matrix]

ST looks ugly on outlaw

At least mine does 😂

Would you say outlaw is gear dependent to pull ahead? I find myself averaging out about 4m in most runs but again I’m only 677 ilvl

[quaint wharf]

677 is pretty low

[frail veldt]

a more objective view of your performance can be your adr uptime

[inland acorn]

You only need haste and ilvl weapon

[frail veldt]

so you can look at that to see if youre playing the spec well or not

90+% for a key is great, 80-90 is decent, sub 80 def missing some things, and sub 70 is prob missing a lot of things

[inland acorn]

If anything I think outlaw loses the more ilvls we get, because other specs get more use out of their secondary stats

While we're just getting haste cap and dump rest in vers+crit

[hasty warren]

it's low for s2 so

[normal forge]

And 40+ versatility

And good usage of coup procs and keeping ADR up. And being smart and lucky with rtb

Gg

Ez

[inland acorn]

that was in terms of gearing...

realistically you only need haste and good ilvl MH, everything else you dump into vers is just bonus

[proven ocean]

@vivid vessel https://www.wowhead.com/news/another-12-994-characters-punished-in-chinas-continued-crackdown-on-piloted-378367

China strikes again

[vivid vessel]

[proven ocean]

Legends

[civic zephyr]

hey why do i /cancelaura stealth? and can i solely use these macros for ADR and BTE? meaning i dont need 2 adr buttons and 2 BTE buttons on my bars?

[frail veldt]

yeah you can probably replace both. Adr for sure and bte might run into some cornercases but for the most part prob fine

youll still want to have a dedicated GS button though

because you want to press it on cd if you dont have any vanish charges, you could in theory use your adr button for that as well I guess haha

[civic zephyr]

alr sick ty, that works for me

[proven ocean]

Nah theres no way

Atleast he got his quick runed crests

[vivid vessel]

haha

[timid idol]

HOOLLYLYYYY

LETS FGUCKINGH GOOOOO

[violet ferry]

Kretes just has this luck

First it was Veteran cudgel

[timid idol]

IT WAS 58 ROLL TIE

WITH ANOTHER GUY

AND I WON IT

which one of these is worse

cant really sim while in raid

[violet ferry]

egg

[frail veldt]

egg if you can find a way to make up the haste

can always like swap your cloak to haste in a pinch

[violet ferry]

GET THAT SAC OUTTA YOUR MOUTH TRINKET SLOT

[timid idol]

ye u right

[timid idol]

oh u right

i never even thought about this

also can swap all gems to haste main

[frail veldt]

yeha it doesnt even destroy the fiber either

so you can keep a haste and vers fiber handy

[timid idol]

wat fr

[frail veldt]

yep

[timid idol]

thats crazy i had no clue

[frail veldt]

yeah huge qol

[violet ferry]

Yar, just left click on the fiber and it will unslot it

[proven ocean]

It used to destroy it

In ptr

Maybe early season too idk

[drowsy ridge]

I need to dump 5% haste somehow. No gems or enchants for haste, just too much on my gear, and my trinkets like me at high haste so I can't even recraft my rings without a large DPS loss right now

[violet ferry]

Had one get destroyed early this season by slotting another fiber on top of the old one

[torpid heath]

Is there a reason why sometime i have ADR active and i have no energy?

[proven ocean]

Prob it got patched on raiding week

[violet ferry]

Would make sense - nbd though since it was the quest reward 😛

[proven ocean]

It had shit stats

So

It didn’t matter

[gaunt phoenix]

cuz of this

if this doesnt proc for like 4 seconds

you have 0 energy until the next AR or KS

[vale warren]

FF worse than old ks no cap

[gaunt phoenix]

it is mostly a single target thing, cause in aoe, blade flurry is basically a net energy positive

[torpid heath]

ok nice it happen a lot on Loomithar when i cant melee boss xD

[vivid vessel]

bro

i tought this said

. - 30 crests

i was about to crash out

[gaunt phoenix]

tf is Cracked keystone

[worldly shale]

quest item from t11 delve

gives 15 gilded after u play m+

doesnt count for cap

[gaunt phoenix]

oh ye i should get it then

huge

[violet ferry]

Players who abused the quest rewards to receive crests beyond the cap have had their crests removed directly from their Best-in-Slot item

[vivid vessel]

GG

i think i didnt do the one for week 2

or

i forgot it went above cap

[torpid heath]

only once per season?

[vivid vessel]

oh is it once per season

ye you right

ye once per season

but the 3 11s per week is weekly

10 per

but htats just a normal gilded reward

yeye

[violet ferry]

isn't it only 7 right now?

7 gilded per 11 delve

[torpid heath]

7 what?

above cap?

[violet ferry]

no, not above cap

[torpid heath]

thats bad xd

[violet ferry]

the gilded chests at the end of a 9 to 11 delve count toward the cap

[brave fossil]

Just got them when I relogged. 15 crests even though I was capped at 270/270

[shy meteor]

!bug

[ornate heath]

[Outlaw bug Thread](#1276315296159760467 message)

[vivid vessel]

hm

maybe

[violet ferry]

10 was at the end of last season, think you only get 7 per chest for now

[vivid vessel]

ah

wtf

thats craz y

[violet ferry]

It really is

[frail veldt]

NO SHOT lololol

[frail veldt]

so huge

imma log in to extra crests

[timid idol]

fatebound for salhadaar?

there is only 1 time where theres more than 1 target

[gaunt phoenix]

Yeah

[timid idol]

ty

dimensius too? same thing, only p1 where theres 2 guys

[pure folio]

FB for dimensius too

[daring oxide]

Where’s the tuning notes

I’ll check again in the morning… eu bedtime now 🥲

[timid idol]

thanks bro

honestly is it just trickster for soulbinder, forgeweaver and soulhunters?

thats it?

[pure folio]

yup

[timid idol]

aite ty

[silk stirrup]

Hi guys is HO viable in m+?

[gaunt phoenix]

Viable yeah

[silk stirrup]

How behind is it?

I was havinga blast last season with HO and then tried now KiR but I find it too slow

[gaunt phoenix]

maybe 5%ish overall if the pulls aren't crazy

[silk stirrup]

Ah that's not so bad

[junior coral]

best way to get Nightfall Curseblade's Cudgel
or is it even worth?

[violet ferry]

Yes it's worth, even the 678 ilvl version is incredibly good and competes with myth track offhands
Go do the Hallowfall weekly event which begins at the top of every hour
You either get the cudgel from the quest reward box that is Veteran track
or
You use the token you receive from the quest to purchase the Adventurer track cudgel from the vendor next to the quest giver

[late swallow]

[junior coral]

thank you!

it looks like people are still rocking the S2 belt, for M+ what titan disc are we running?

[junior coral]

there is a macro that goes along with the cudgel, right?

[keen belfry]

good key

[sudden fulcrum]

32 deaths
what the helly

[junior coral]

lmao what the helly

[proven ocean]

What

[sudden fulcrum]

why tho

[ripe ibex]

i love you

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/316923682607857685/1381852605713612911/Medal_h1G7cG1Nlw.gif

[keen belfry]

we needed darknmess

[fathom whale]

whats optimal haste to play KiR?

[gaunt phoenix]

[gaunt phoenix]

19%, though 20% is close enough

[fathom whale]

sweet

[mild vigil]

With new fatebound rule do we think it’s just bis in all raid fights? Or is it still trickster in fights like soulbinder, forgemaster, or soul hunters?

[ornate kernel]

!gear

[ornate heath]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406175771495759952/outlaw.webp

[stuck patrol]

IDK what it is. I was playing KIR just fine season 1, then I got used to HO, now I feel like I suck at KIR

Unless outlaw is just kinda behind in keys rn

I'm kinda behind my other two DPS in my friend group

[bleak rune]

!wa

[ornate heath]

Class packs:

• Guy's - Afenar's Edit Luxthos Edit
• Zac's Group Devlin
  Utilities:
• Combo Point Standalone
• Last GCD in Crackshot window / Subterfuge timer
• Ace refund sound trigger
• RtB buffs tracker (shows normal, CTO, and KIR'd buffs)
• Unseen Blade tracker
  Fun:
• Ace max combo counter and Ace current combo counter

[craggy quiver]

Tuning where

https://tenor.com/view/where-you-at-gif-21177622

[heady gale]

are the RTB WA's decent and reliable? or is it better to learn to roll yourself?

[pure folio]

Prob depends what they’re playing, outlaw still has pretty good damage in keys

[buoyant cosmos]

Practice keys be like?

[buoyant cosmos]

I stopped using one, I think it made me a worse player

[pure folio]

Learn yourself, I would use a weak aura that shows your buffs and if they’re containers or not

[buoyant cosmos]

It's not super complicated to learn if you have the "rotation" down

[stuck patrol]

Going against a frost DK and a destro lock

[pure folio]

But nothing that tells you when to roll or kir

[pure folio]

So the two most op specs

LOL

[stuck patrol]

Okay fair lmfao

[pure folio]

I usually beat frost, but destro is rough for me in certain dungeons

[heady gale]

tyty for the replies 🤠

[stuck patrol]

Okay maybe I'm playing fine then, I was used to being fairly equal to them last season, often beating the lock by a lot

Now the warlock is like going crazy damage

[pure folio]

What’s ur overall like

[fathom bramble]

we are just weaker than last season to be fair

you could still win with a big enough skill diff though

as always

[pure folio]

Yeah, we are pretty weak compared to last season

Skill > fotm

[buoyant cosmos]

Carried by BM buff try again

[pure folio]

It makes me happy seeing frost players who suck

[fathom bramble]

oh true

my bad

[pure folio]

Or any fotm

[wintry solar]

loktark never responds to pings

[stuck patrol]

Depends on dungeon/pulls, I'm pulling 5ish mil. To note I am more casual so I'm not full on hero/myth gear yet

[fathom bramble]

which ping

I try to reply unless it's like 16 hours later

[buoyant cosmos]

All good, just be better ❤️

[wintry solar]

it was just a rant

[stuck patrol]

To compare, DK usually doing 6 mil, destro lock doing 6-8 depending on the dungeon

[wintry solar]

about outlaw and dimmy

[buoyant cosmos]

Are you playing law on Fract Lok?

Or already dead and onto King

[fathom bramble]

I did yeah

we killed fract last week

[buoyant cosmos]

I forgot that Fract is before soul

[fathom bramble]

haven't raided mythic this reset yet since we raid fri/sat

I played outlaw on our soul and fract kills last week

[buoyant cosmos]

Yeah saw you pumped on soul

[fathom bramble]

and on every other boss in the raid for that matter so far

King looks bad

and dim looks doomed

we could be almost good on dim imo if HO/trickster was still a viable build

[wintry solar]

my beloved

[fathom bramble]

but alas we are playing 0 cleave infinite punishment kir

[buoyant cosmos]

next patch is ours, surely.

[pure folio]

I would say your damage should def be higher if they’re pulling those numbers, what’s ur ilvl

[stuck patrol]

I'm cooked

Probably just haven't completely adjusted my brain to KIR yet

[pure folio]

Outlaw on dim 🤣

[buoyant cosmos]

but there's more P1 adds

how can we be even worse

[pure folio]

Actually feels like punishment

[stuck patrol]

It's crazy, if there's downtime on a fight we suck ass

[fathom bramble]

fatebound doesn't actually benefit from extra targets as much as we did last tier

[stuck patrol]

It's almost like

UHUH sucks ASS

[fathom bramble]

arguably the extra adds push it further in favor of a spec like sub

[buoyant cosmos]

It's just all sarcasm

[fathom bramble]

fair

even on like king we could get some really nice trickster value

if trickster was viable

[buoyant cosmos]

I forgot

[fathom bramble]

it's so sad that we are stuck on a horrifically designed hero talent with no upsides

give ST and then like 27 downsides

[buoyant cosmos]

Someone make a photoshop with Realz and Zac as Remmy from ratatouille

[stuck patrol]

Here's my monthly bitching about UHUH here it's sucks ass, it's bad. Fuck UHUH. Get rid of it, bring back random Adr procs, increase our energy Regen re offset

Or at least make a build that can do good damage without it, Jesus Christ

[fathom bramble]

give 2 charges of AR

and uhuh is fixed

[wintry solar]

or

fix the problem at its core

[stuck patrol]

Not fully but it would make it way better yesterday

Yes* not yesterday

Thanks phone

[fathom bramble]

I mean the core problem is that our CDs are randomized and you will never be able to reliably fit them to an encounter

uhuh makes this problem present itself in a fun and unique way

but 2 charges of AR fixes both things to a reasonable extent

[wintry solar]

no the problem is our energy sucks

[stuck patrol]

A not fun way you mean

[wintry solar]

it doesnt get deeper

[fathom bramble]

sorry "fun and unique" was half sarcasm

[strong halo]

Mortiz should reallyt be careful... im catching up to him neck and neck

[fathom bramble]

since we are a CDR spec we have always and will always need the tools to game our CDs

[stuck patrol]

IDK, I never had a problem when outlaw's problem was just needing uptime for cdr

[lime lake]

you'll catch up faster if you buy that monitor

[stuck patrol]

Like yeah other specs would be better in fights where you wanted CDs in specific moments

[lime lake]

Learn more

[stuck patrol]

But we still did good consistent damage

[fathom bramble]

that's true

[strong halo]

Raider IO hitting me with ads SMH

[stuck patrol]

Now, if we lose adr uptime, our damage plummets

[fathom bramble]

uhuh makes the problem much worse and changes how it presents

[stuck patrol]

And more importantly, it plays like shit

[wintry solar]

did back in df

been saying it since day 1

[stuck patrol]

Same

[fathom bramble]

but our CDR nature and AR has always been a significant problem in prog raiding

[wintry solar]

yes but that undermines how bad it truly is now

[stuck patrol]

True, but I'm talking from the point of view of a heroic raider and those who do solo content

No one wants to fucking play outlaw because UHUH exists

[wintry solar]

to shrug it off as "but its always been bad for outlaw" when this is absolutely the worst its ever been

[buoyant cosmos]

how old is that lol

[fathom bramble]

I don't intend to shrug it off necessarily

[strong halo]

like 10 seconds ago

[fathom bramble]

I only mean to say that a more concrete fix would be nice instead of just deleting uhuh

[strong halo]

current leaderboard wym

[fathom bramble]

something that allows us to actually apply our sustained damage to a fight instead of just being at the mercy of the fight constantly

which is the goal of 2 charge AR

[buoyant cosmos]

for law?

[strong halo]

Floodgate 14 with ele shammy and lock i stood no chance

[stuck patrol]

But even with 2 charges of Adr, outlaw would never be good on fights like demensius

[strong halo]

mines based on server

[buoyant cosmos]

Ahhh

[stuck patrol]

As long as blizzard forces extended downtime, UHUH will never play well

[buoyant cosmos]

was confused

[vivid vessel]

why am i not even there tf

eta gg

did i log out as sub

[strong halo]

his is NA

i think

[vivid vessel]

so im not even in the outlaw ranking

[buoyant cosmos]

This is US mouth breathers not EU

[fathom bramble]

I disagree, 2 charge AR would likely let you have functionally 100% AR uptime on the fight if played well

[vivid vessel]

US

[fathom bramble]

we would still be worse than normal, but not hilariously doomed

[strong halo]

World

China > France

@vivid vessel gros defend notre honneur

[desert tendon]

casual is french also

sorry

[strong halo]

hes greek

[desert tendon]

your point is wrong

[stuck patrol]

Maybe you're right, IDK

[vivid vessel]

i havent started playing tbh

[desert tendon]

he played outlaw

[vivid vessel]

only a few keys done

[fathom bramble]

and perhaps with our low tuning you would still be bad on dim, but at least it wouldn't be because of a impossible to play around downtime

[desert tendon]

therefore he s french

[stuck patrol]

Either way it's shit rn and they need to fix something

[wintry solar]

why is this a good thing?

[desert tendon]

popo

may i dm you something

[wintry solar]

yeah

[strong halo]

wow im 1536 rogue world

im insane

[fathom bramble]

because it saves our dim damage profile ?

[late swallow]

je viens de finir de caresser ma grosse bite

[buoyant cosmos]

filter by outlaw for the real game

Top 200 ez

[fathom bramble]

70% of our problem on dim is that you get interrupted in your rotation and lose all your damage right before the platforms and damage amp

[vivid vessel]

@gaunt phoenix

[stuck patrol]

But why should a spec only function if you keep a buff up 100% of the time, or close to 100%

[fathom bramble]

2 charges of AR lets you outplay that and have it for those events

[late swallow]

fastest snitch in the west

[stuck patrol]

A buff that has a 1-3 min cd

[vivid vessel]

[strong halo]

Wtf is wrong with u

[fathom bramble]

look that is what 2 charges of AR does in the current context of Outlaw as it is

[late swallow]

when the gestapo comes knocking, zac already has a pot of tea ready for them

[fathom bramble]

if we didn't have uhuh I would be campaigning for 2 charges still

[late swallow]

[strong halo]

y u so weird tho

[fathom bramble]

just for slightly different reasons

[wintry solar]

I get it but I just dont agree

[fathom bramble]

and the interuptions on dim would still be very penalizing without uhuh if we didn't have 2 charges of AR

[strong halo]

@keen belfry did you copy zac mog or did he copy u?

[fathom bramble]

you would frequently be offered the choice of casting AR now and losing half of it or spending 10-15 seconds dpsing with AR available and not pressed

[stuck patrol]

At least we would HAVE the choice

[fathom bramble]

I mean you have that choice rn

[late swallow]

Kommandant, oui ils se cachent dans l'abri de jardin!

[fathom bramble]

you are allowed to just not press AR before the platforms

[strong halo]

IM NUMBER 350 OUTLAW ROGUE WORLD? i beat so many of you bad moggers

[fathom bramble]

and hold it for when they start

[keen belfry]

Everyone using the trench coat so neither

[hollow temple]

@vivid vessel bonjour

[vivid vessel]

[stuck patrol]

Not with how much damage we lose without it

[late swallow]

[strong halo]

Bro this guy is wilding out

[late swallow]

was doing my best zac impression

[fathom bramble]

yeah and you would still lose so much damage that it feels like shit in a world without uhuh

[stuck patrol]

At least I could still press buttons and not feel like I'm playing vanilla rogue

[late swallow]

so many french speakers in here!

[wintry solar]

fo reel

I'd honestly take the downside of pre-uhuh

[buoyant cosmos]

I hope their fix isn't just making us take vigour with those extra talent points

[stuck patrol]

It would be more player friendly too, can't forget the noobs

[wintry solar]

thats true

uhuh not very new player friendly blizz >.>

get to it. chop chop

[stuck patrol]

We'll be taking it anyway I bet, it's not going to feel like much of a difference gameplay wise tho

[buoyant cosmos]

It's either that or leathality / CB right?

[stuck patrol]

Even some veteran players think I'm crazy for liking outlaw

[wintry solar]

lol imagine

[stuck patrol]

Bc they pick it up and they're like

[fathom bramble]

if you take vigour with our haste cap you end up basically GCD capped outside AR

[stuck patrol]

"wtf is this garbage this isn't fun"

Bc they don't know how to play it

[buoyant cosmos]

In my head it was to have a larger pool of energy to push SS in while waiting to play the game again

instead of making anything faster

[late swallow]

missed you blicky

glad you're back king

[fathom bramble]

I'm still not convinced it is that dissimilar from losing AR in a lot of previous expansions

we are just use to perma 0.8 second GCD

[frail veldt]

wow im dumb thats a lot of damage

dslice crit chain goes hard

[wintry solar]

it is, energy managment was part of the playstyle

[fathom bramble]

different in terms of total GCDs that you are allowed to spend on abilities without energy from ar

[stuck patrol]

Sure, but the comparison between having and not having Adr is so awful, even if it's "not dissimilar", it feels worse just from how much you lose if you lose the buff

And again, I'm not just speaking mythic raid here

So many players just do delves and world content, maybe some dungeons

People won't play this in those contexts

[buoyant cosmos]

Most of those people hate KiR anyways

[fathom bramble]

you'll get no disagreement from me on hating kir

[stuck patrol]

Yeah but UHUH is required for either build just to function

[fathom bramble]

from a gameplay perspective ho functions fine without uhuh

[buoyant cosmos]

I think it's easier to not mess up though

[stuck patrol]

The entire class is balance based on UHUH existing, otherwise we would be super powerful

[fathom bramble]

even kir doesn't play that poorly without uhuh

you are just much weaker

[stuck patrol]

But you do shit damage

Players will always look up "the best build" even if they don't do competitive content

Guess what every build on wowhead has?

That's right

[buoyant cosmos]

Tier list pick my destiny plox

[stuck patrol]

UHUH

[frail veldt]

HO actually adds a lot of non subterfuge gameplay value

[stuck patrol]

Yup, but it still plays like shit without Adr up

[fathom bramble]

what is "plays like shit"

[late swallow]

feels bad to play

[fathom bramble]

if you are gcd capped outside AR

what could they possibly change to make that less like shit

other than lowing our global gcd

[frail veldt]

its not too bad honestly I messed with some non uhuh builds for pvp and it feels pretty good

they just dont do as much damage

but the playstyle is actually decent

[wintry solar]

its the time it takes for you to have enough energy to press SS again

[copper radish]

why does LFG feel barren finding tanks right now....

[buoyant cosmos]

That's my feels like shit moment

[stuck patrol]

You're thinking like a mythic raider

[late swallow]

it's not just about gcd cap, it's the energy issues

[stuck patrol]

Most players won't even care about globals

[buoyant cosmos]

they're raiding

[fathom bramble]

gcd capped meaning that you spend most of your globals having enough energy to cast

[stuck patrol]

They care about feeling like they are doing something

[fathom bramble]

you are not waiting for energy

[late swallow]

outside of AR?

you have like 0 energy outside of AR with HO SC

maybe the old vigor build

[stuck patrol]

Having too much energy will always play better than not having enough energy

As in, more fun to play

[fathom bramble]

I think I said vigor like 37 lines up

but yes you have less energy with SC

[frail veldt]

yeah with vigor and HO it feels fine

just doesnt do much damage

[late swallow]

oh mb I missed this (I can't read)

[stuck patrol]

Players don't like needing to wait to do something impactful, especially when rogue struggles in world/solo content on the first place

[fathom bramble]

I also think that a lot of the perceived ho slowness outside of AR is actually coming from losing take em

[stuck patrol]

Probably yeah

But if they don't do good damage, they will notice

And other players will notice. You'll be called a shit player and called a noob for not playing the "correct" build

Then the player won't want to play rogue

Or outlaw at least

[late swallow]

i do this

i teach new players how my dad raised me: negative reinforcement and toxicity

[stuck patrol]

Assuming of course they make their own build and not just copy the wowhead build, not know how to play it, or suck at it, and then be called a noob anyway

[wintry solar]

I just want to not wait 2 seconds to press SS out of adr

my bar is very low

[frail veldt]

yeah this is a problem with modern games as a whole

its true for routing as a tank

its true outside of wow in games like league/dota for meta comps/builds/strats etc

[mighty pivot]

best I can do is you have to press 5 SS in a row

[frail veldt]

in modern "competitive" games youre heavily encouraged to comply to the best strategy otherwise youre "trolling" your team

[stuck patrol]

Yes, but at least with our classes you can pick up how you're supposed to play very easily, and can make easier builds that don't have much of a DPS loss

[strong halo]

i cant play floodgate as outlaw anymore, that key is like target cap hell

[fathom bramble]

they can fix energy outside of AR without deleting uhuh

[frail veldt]

like a player can come to the correct conclusion about a class just by their own experimentation?

[fathom bramble]

and overfocusing on uhuh imo can easily lead to deleting uhuh with no adjustments to outside AR energy

[wintry solar]

even with fixed energy, uhuh is just annoying to play around really

[mighty pivot]

fixing energy outside of AR would take like 5 minutes yeah

[stuck patrol]

How so?

[frail veldt]

yeah it would be nice

[frail veldt]

ijncrease energy outside of ar and nerf ar energy increase

haha

[fathom bramble]

move part of the energy AR provides into a baseline passive

[frail veldt]

so that ar energy level remains unchanged

and baseline is higher

it would literally take like 2 lines of code

not even lines youd just change some base values

[fathom bramble]

you could also retune energy overall and rework AR to be an energy generater multiplier so that it always scales perfectly with out of AR energy

^this fix is way harder

[frail veldt]

like if adr instead was 25% increased energy regen and base energy regen was buffed to compensate

25% would match the increase in gcd

so that you dont feel more energy starved in adr

any lower and there would be problems

[stuck patrol]

Hypothetically this all seems fine

[fathom bramble]

well not quite since a lot of energy resources do not get increased by %increased energy regeneration rate

[mighty pivot]

just move it to combat potency

[frail veldt]

yeah so in theory you wouldnt even need to buff outside of adr energy by as much as you nerf inside adr

cuz theres static energy gains that arent even affected by adr

imo the bigger thing to fix

is normalizing fatal flourish procs

it should just be X energy per auto

[fathom bramble]

"Energy regeneration rate increased by 10% while adrenaline rush is not active" spec passive

[frail veldt]

exactly

[fathom bramble]

true

[frail veldt]

and change this to 100% chance to generate 5 energy

...

like

cmon

you run out of energy INSIDE ADR due to how shit FF is

[stuck patrol]

IDK either way I'm mad when I get killed and lose all of my Adr time I gained from pressing Adr 5 seconds earlier, and I hate playing this stupid spec when I'm forced to have so much downtime I lose and Adr I could have extended another 60 seconds

And I hate how it feels to play when I lose adr

Otherwise it's super fun

Feast or famine is cringe

[frail veldt]

I dont think anyone disagrees with that haha

[mighty pivot]

they would have to make the energy gain scale based on weapon speed in that case just like its chance is normalised right now

[frail veldt]

already does

well the proc scales

[mighty pivot]

that's what I said

[fathom bramble]

yeah it's like 3.641 energy per auto with a dagger or something to make it fair

in theory

[frail veldt]

ah yeah I gotchu

but again those are easily solveable

[stuck patrol]

Just do SOMETHING ndjxjsjxjdsn

[mighty pivot]

they are if you have a dev

[frail veldt]

I mean were probably getting a rework so this could happen

[stuck patrol]

Outlaw lost double charge Adr so dhs could get devourer

[frail veldt]

we had double charge adr?

[stuck patrol]

Lost as in we never got it lmao

[frail veldt]

I mean alphas not even out yet

how do you know

[mighty pivot]

it doesn't even look as a "probably" tbh the spec has been mentioned too many times by devs

[buoyant cosmos]

He was added to the realz ion email chain on accident

[frail veldt]

I agree but if I say definitely then someones gona call me out haha

[mighty pivot]

just say it pussy

[fathom bramble]

uhuh changed to only apply to BF and also grant some small token damage during AR or something

[stuck patrol]

I was memeing, it's not that deep lmao

[fathom bramble]

hero talents are
Sneaky Opportunity: Casting Vanish or exiting stealth causes your next X sinister strikes to be guaranteed to strike twice
Quiet adrenaline: Casting vanish grants 3/6(2 pointer) seconds of adrenaline rush
Preparation: Vanish and Adrenaline rush both have an additional charge, and grant x% damage for 10 seconds when activated. Multiple applications may overlap.

fixed

[wintry solar]

"Expansion level changes" but its just a buff to energy gen

[frail veldt]

yeah im just trying to stay positive before we even know whats coming haha

[stuck patrol]

HELL YEAH

[frail veldt]

no pls stop

no more vanish in offensive rotation

[wintry solar]

its so loaded

[frail veldt]

its the root of all evil

[stuck patrol]

Tbh tho, outlaw should have a "shadow dance" like ability that is literally just vanish but doesn't take you out of stealth, and shares a CD with vanish

[frail veldt]

yep

1000%

delete subterfuge

[stuck patrol]

So we don't reset mobs in solo content

[frail veldt]

and make our adr/bf just pause when out of combat

done and done

[stuck patrol]

Please god

[stuck patrol]

I like this too

[wintry solar]

thats what uhuh shouldve been tbh

or like second wind

[stuck patrol]

When we had shadow dance in Shadowlands and DF, I could actually do some solo content

[fathom bramble]

Upper Hand: Spending combo points extends Adrenaline Rush and Blade flurry durations by x seconds per combo point spent. Additionally Blade flurry and Adrenaline rush cannot lose duration if you have not spent or generated combo points in the last 3 seconds

you can just use a vanish macro or faster hands to vanish in solo content to be fair

[stuck patrol]

I climaxed

[frail veldt]

they already have done this for shadow priest

[stuck patrol]

Doesn't always work lol

[frail veldt]

you have to vanish off gcd

[stuck patrol]

Ik, it still doesn't always work

IDK if it has to do with my ping or what

[wintry solar]

vanish during FTH proc

[frail veldt]

I stun the mob

if possible

that helps for some reason

[fathom bramble]

vanish in general should just not drop combat until it converts into stealth

all 3 specs should cast vanish for dps or utility

[stuck patrol]

I've also noticed it helps if the mob is casting a channeled ability

[frail veldt]

well then it wouldnt cause the mob to stop targeting

[fathom bramble]

and I don't want the bloat of a vanis hthat is just a 2nd vanish key

[frail veldt]

that would be hard for them to change I think

[stuck patrol]

I'd agree with this too

Needs a rework either way

The amount of self control it takes to not @ Realz this shit every day

[wintry solar]

I'd go as far as to say Outlaw shouldnt need vanish and should remain stealthless to make itself more unique from the other specs. Its been over 20 years, I think we can shake the DnD rogue archetype now that wow has made a name for itself

[stuck patrol]

Eh, as long as I can still stealth I'm for this

[wintry solar]

yeah

[river escarp]

Outlaw wasn't even really stealth dependant until the talent tree rework in Dragonflight, as well

[wintry solar]

subterfuge dependent

[stuck patrol]

I would argue outlaw shouldnt require stealth as a DPS CD at least

[fathom bramble]

Outlaw has had significant and often insane DPS gains from stealth/vanish since legion

[wintry solar]

vanish and subterfuge is different

[river escarp]

? I don't recall any except like Kyrian Shadowdust

[fathom bramble]

we gained a crazy amount damage from it in the first expac where outlaw even existed

[wintry solar]

Legion we had master assassin

[restive obsidian]

Stealth is fine. Mob deaggro in .5 seconds is not fine

[wintry solar]

and BFA didnt have any

[fathom bramble]

CTO for all of SL and mantle in shadowlands

BFA was the only expansion where vanish/stealth didn't really do anything

and in legion it was a lot of damage from mantle since vanish was up so often

[lethal oak]

Bring back BFA amirite?

[fathom bramble]

mantle was worth more than some of the talents people complain about these days

[river escarp]

Yeah I guess you're right on that, I forgot which legendaries I was running back then

[wintry solar]

BFA was really good but we cant go back to CP RTB

[stuck patrol]

Real talk, BFA outlaw was one of the best iterations of it

[wintry solar]

2nd best for sure

[fathom bramble]

and then to be completely fair Combat did also exist for a bit there

and didn't care much for vanish

[stuck patrol]

Best outlaw was s4 Shadowlands

On god

[river escarp]

Yeah like in MoP it's just for some cheap CP generation with ambush

[frail veldt]

did they disable this?

[fathom bramble]

S2 Legion with blunderbuss, greenskins, and mantle

that was peak

[stuck patrol]

I think the key has to have gone on for 5 mins before you can vote

[wintry solar]

I'll always a place in my heart for Dreadblades

idc how bad it was, it was fun

[stuck patrol]

If the whole group leaves the dungeons physically you can bypass

[proper veldt]

And not in boss fight

[wintry solar]

I ran DB all of SL

[lethal oak]

Outlaw is like surv hunter, we need a time machine for the glory days before the reckoning

[proper veldt]

That bugged out for me though, I got stuck in a reset instance

Then had to wait 5 min in a none mythic key stone to abandon again

[frail veldt]

doesnt look like it

[lime lake]

you have to reset the dungeon

while everyone is out

and it bypasses it

[stuck patrol]

What bel said

[buoyant cosmos]

The lead may have to go in first. It wasn't working quite right for us last night either

[wintry solar]

what Blicky said

[frail veldt]

lol

[proper veldt]

Yeah I mean it reset but I wasn’t trying to do another key with them

But I couldn’t leave even though there was no m+ running lmao

[wintry solar]

would yall rather have a sore throat, nausea, or fever?

[proper veldt]

So we had to wait in m0 for 5 min

Hella bugged system

[stuck patrol]

Any as long as it doesn't include uhuh

[wintry solar]

LMOA

no you pick one

[buoyant cosmos]

Yeah same

Someone just left and we were all freed after that

[stuck patrol]

Fever probably, depends how bad the fever is

[wintry solar]

thats up to you

[strong halo]

Why you playing with a frostmourne tank

[river escarp]

Id say sore throat because it'd just give me an excuse to eat ice cream for dinner like a savage.

[frail veldt]

idk he wiped the group first pull

complete waste of time

[buoyant cosmos]

Some frostmourne people are cracked

[frail veldt]

lfg is sad rn

[buoyant cosmos]

Not him tho lolol

[strong halo]

ping difference someone is playing on 200 ping its a recipee for poopoo

[buoyant cosmos]

They're used to it

[strong halo]

IM NOT THOUGH

[buoyant cosmos]

I had a 4/8M brew master last night and he was great

They play on our ping if we start the key

[strong halo]

does anyone have a 691? every time i dont get one im like "NICE"

[stuck patrol]

IDK why blizzard insists on making aus and us servers connect, it just fucks up things for both of us

[buoyant cosmos]

My gut says not enough players

[stuck patrol]

Sucks to suck

[buoyant cosmos]

True

[strong halo]

they can play with NZ

and SE asia

[buoyant cosmos]

I have a few friends who refuse to play with them

[strong halo]

i raided first week on AU ping

was cancer

[wintry solar]

same thing

[stuck patrol]

My friend has a list of all aus servers because grouping with them straight increases their chances of d/cing by like 2000%

[buoyant cosmos]

I was doing a heroic pug w/ a dude in the Philippines

[buoyant cosmos]

Isp says no to all packets leaving the country lol

[stuck patrol]

Apparently lmao

[buoyant cosmos]

One of my friends thinks Dalaran is AUS no matter how many times we tell him it's Chicago

[stuck patrol]

Lmfao

[buoyant cosmos]

"I can already feel the ping"

It's hilarious

[copper radish]

i love how quick and easy eco dome is

[dawn talon]

they couldn't get a good OCE host way back when

(bc none existed back then)

so they hosted OCE in NA which was commonplace at the time

and now they don't wanna make all those people adjust

[indigo token]

doing my reclear of hero forge

at least outlaw is good on araz

[pure folio]

🤣 outlaw good?

[quaint mauve]

i just out ST my fury warrior on 2nd boss gambit

he will never hear the end of it

the stars aligned and i sat on 5 buffs whole fight

[buoyant cosmos]

Kir into Kir into Kir is peak gaming

[stuck nest]

!guide

[ornate heath]

Outlaw Guides:
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/outlaw-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/outlaw-rogue-pve-dps-guide
Method: https://www.method.gg/guides/outlaw-rogue

[quaint mauve]

felt so good

[glass mortar]

fake news

adds gotta die broooooo

😠

someone else can kill the boss

its not our job apparently

[vivid vessel]

i think

outlaw

might be the worse spec in the game on araz

[dawn talon]

i been tryna get sub gear all week bro

[vivid vessel]

not even joking

[dawn talon]

they wouldn't listen

[glass mortar]

[vivid vessel]

the way people play it at least

like trickster full aoe

[fathom bramble]

outlaw is very good at padding on the 2 adds that literally don't need damage on them

and it shows very nicely on the logs

[glass mortar]

its not fair because all us filthy outlaw players are anti padding boss damage logs

anytime theres aoe we play a padding build to make ourselves look worse

its our fault when you think about it

u might do literally triple the dps u would as the ST build but its still padding

[vivid vessel]

idk

[glass mortar]

!!

[quaint mauve]

i have a question on gambit 3rd boss

[vivid vessel]

i just hope blizzard is smart enough

[fathom bramble]

well we lose all our ST from nearby adds no matter what so

[vivid vessel]

and dont loiook at these logs

[fathom bramble]

idk

it's doomed

[vivid vessel]

thinking outlaw is good

[quaint mauve]

yall r waiting for the last millisecond to get to y’all’s star

right

[buoyant cosmos]

I slap the boss then move back yeah

[quaint mauve]

my healer says im stressing him out

he doesn’t understand

[glass mortar]

i mean even if u had ur fatebound nodes perma turned off it would still do like ~10% more ST dps then any trickster build

[quaint mauve]

i need my
car

cdr

[fathom bramble]

I mean if it's not hardmode yeah

[glass mortar]

the gap between ST build and aoe build is so massive man

its wild

[buoyant cosmos]

where are you going?

[fathom bramble]

might as well

[vivid vessel]

no it doesnt

in pure aoe fb does the same prio as treickster

[glass mortar]

not if u play the ST fatebound build

[fathom bramble]

FB goes down to trickster ST when you have adds nearby

[glass mortar]

im not talking the cleave one

[vivid vessel]

you said any trickster build ?

[fathom bramble]

with both builds running the same non-hero talents

[vivid vessel]

if i play st trickster vs st fb

[glass mortar]

is fatebound st only like 12% ahead of trickster st build

i thot it was more tbh

[vivid vessel]

its still will be the same prio in aoe

[glass mortar]

i guess its probably not

[fathom bramble]

Fuu sheet has it at 11.31%

[dusk bridge]

!log

[glass mortar]

thats about how much of ur ST turns off in aoe for fatebound, or it was when i simmed it s1

gunna be honest i havent simmed it since

[vivid vessel]

isimmed it recently

yes

your st turn off to trickster level

[fathom bramble]

yeah

there is no ST build when there are adds present

you just go straight to being the worst ST spec in the game

[indigo token]

jesus christ man

outlaw needs serious buffs\

[dawn talon]

they need to just

[fathom bramble]

gutted trickster by randomly doubling KS cd

[dawn talon]

do ANYTHING about PC

so we can do

[fathom bramble]

and gave nothing in return

[dawn talon]

real single target

[vivid vessel]

outlaw players need to stop playing pc

o nthe pad bosses

if they want buffs

cause blizzard is so stupid

and wont buff outlaw

[glass mortar]

it really is just s1 all over again but tricksters aoe has been buffed higher and kspree isnt such a sin that we are still willing to play it

[vivid vessel]

if you guys continue padding

[glass mortar]

good job

we all loved how shit trickster was s1

[indigo token]

whats PC

[glass mortar]

at least now its playable shit

[vivid vessel]

precise cut

the talent that makes you look good in your log

but secretely makes you the worse spec in the game

im about to start playing no pc in keys im ng l

[indigo token]

?????

[vivid vessel]

?

[indigo token]

how

[vivid vessel]

its a pure pad talent

on these bosses

this is why outlaw is down there

casue every single outlaw playuer

plays pc

which is stupid

and terrible

[indigo token]

i dont get it

[vivid vessel]

but it looks better on logs

[indigo token]

am I being goofed

[vivid vessel]

no

stop padding tho

[lime lake]

real

[indigo token]

isnt that just cleaving off the boss though

[indigo token]

yeah

[vivid vessel]

ye

this is -10% st

taking this talent

[dawn talon]

i mean i geet it

but at the same time 0 -10% is still 0

[vivid vessel]

look

i know outlaw players are all stupid

so its fine

but every single one of these players

that played pc trickster on araz

inted their guild

[tender wedge]

is the second point in FTH really that big

[vivid vessel]

to get good logs

in prog

which is crazy to me

[glass mortar]

its a padding talent because its turbo strong in cleave but its placement makes you dumpsterfire ur ST to take

[vivid vessel]

and thats 99% of the logs btw

[glass mortar]

thats zacs point

[digital linden]

zac there was no prog to be had on that boss tho