outlaw

[proven ocean]

'THE FIRST PART

WHERE THE CAT SHAKES

LEFT AND RIGHT

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

100/10

[glass mortar]

49% broadside uptime on eco 10

what an enjoyable key

[daring oxide]

I had this on mythic fractilius

I wanted to literally

kill my

fucking

butt

[glass mortar]

so awful

[daring oxide]

hole

sub 50% uptime on

BS

and TB

[proven ocean]

[daring oxide]

ADR kept dropping off

[glass mortar]

its ok

i had 68% BT uptime

😎

energy for days

[daring oxide]

I had 95% BT

[glass mortar]

shame i didnt do any fuckin damage

[daring oxide]

even with 95% BT

i was dry as a fuckin desert

cos of GS

being spammy now

and no cdr

had to spam SS to build

was the greatest feeling

[cinder relic]

• It's energy and combo points being very different from a majority of DPS specs
• It's non flashy visuals at a fundamental level
• It's the quirks and complexity
• It's the "archetype" being kind of unpopular in MMOs where people like more... "Soft" (non pejorative way) classes. Druid, Hunter, Mage, Paladin
• It's that a lot of "casual" players will sort of just stick to mains and don't shop around to different classes
• It's sort of a perpetual cycle as well, unpopular classes are pointed to as "unpopular" so people aren't willing to give them a try

[frail veldt]

Yeah I do think complexity is a feature. It's a tradeoff to make a spec more approachable you often will lose high end complexity and can make some long time players unhappy. I guess it's all up to whether blizzard thinks that tradeoff is worth it. From their interviews it's seeming like they think it is worth

[cinder relic]

It's a collection of these, and none of these are like, problems idk

[glass mortar]

ok yea that feels about right

[cinder relic]

This is just how the class is

[glass mortar]

i was wondering why damage felt so awful

i had 3X the amount of SS casts i had PS

[daring oxide]

ya

[glass mortar]

legit just never proccing

[daring oxide]

if u dont get BS

you just spam SS

you go dry

[glass mortar]

i had 7+ no proc in a row multiple times in one dungeon

[daring oxide]

because you dont press finishers

and then

[glass mortar]

so horrid man

[daring oxide]

you wanna stick chopsticks up ur butt

[cinder relic]

I mean part of a game like wow is designing a game for many different types of players

[daring oxide]

and rag them around

[proven ocean]

ye i agree

most players dont know what the complexity even is on any class

so it doesnt matter at all lol

it only matters in the higher end maybe and only maybe

[frail veldt]

Yeah but theres got to be a world where you can improve parts of the spec holistically and not damage the things people like about the spec. Except for some outliers like people who liked old KS more

[daring oxide]

m8 complexity is aiming your BM hunter tier set Stampede properly so it aoes everything

[proven ocean]

like

alot of ppl play mage

and mage is like

hardest ranged class in the game

legit 99.999% of all mages are microwaved

same for rogues

but not alot of ppl rogue

[daring oxide]

i am microwaved

tonight at least

absolutely microwaved

[cinder relic]

I agree, I think outlaw specifically has too much bullshit atm

[craggy quiver]

Only people who like old ks are pvpers

[proven ocean]

ye

[cinder relic]

It's why I've stopping playing the spec as religiously

[proven ocean]

truth nuke out the wazoo

outlaw is way too bloated

[digital linden]

what bloat should be culled then

[proven ocean]

like

[daring oxide]

maybe guy will come back if they cook well in the outlaw rework

[proven ocean]

i know i can play outlaw perfectly if i invest my time into it

but

[daring oxide]

i haven't seen guy play outlaw since SL

[proven ocean]

whats the fucking point

its legit a huge time waste

[torpid fiber]

Trickster is so weird like wdym I can't slam vanish

[proven ocean]

and the spec isnt fun cuz its fucked up

and its not even good once u learn it fully and play it giga perfect

[cinder relic]

We played double outlaw on every boss in vault bruv

[frail veldt]

Yeah I think a lot of that bullshit does account for some amount of unpopularity. So I'm hoping they trim the bullshit without destroying what makes outlaw outlaw

[daring oxide]

ok vault yes

[proven ocean]

dude

[daring oxide]

start of DF

[craggy quiver]

Yea I feel this super cringe actually

[proven ocean]

it was more of an outlaw than it is right now when it was simple and im sure @cinder relic will agree, (bfa outlaw) as an example

[wintry solar]

I think what they call outlaw and what we call outlaw are 2 totally different outlaws

[daring oxide]

what do you want them to trim from outlaw?

[proven ocean]

like

as cooked as guy may be

[daring oxide]

ok seriously

[proven ocean]

i think he would do great if he designed outlaw

imo

no cappy

[daring oxide]

what do people want Jade Martin and his bros to trim from outlaw?

what do we see is a good rework from outlaw

like actual examples

e.g.

remove RTB container

[wintry solar]

Stuff pruned from vanish

[frank finch]

jader martin?

[torpid fiber]

Kill deeper stratagem 🙂

[wintry solar]

That too

[daring oxide]

Bring back Dreadblades??????????

[wintry solar]

DB???

[daring oxide]

Make death from above an actual PVE talent?

[craggy quiver]

Mfd

[wintry solar]

Yes please

[craggy quiver]

Pls

[glass mortar]

work on cto, probably improvments or simplification (i guess some people want removal) of kir, change GSW/ghostly

[daring oxide]

yes MFD

[cinder relic]

Uh idk what I even want, I just want the spec to be "less"

[proven ocean]

dmg swapped to builders too not just purely finishers, give the spec infinite energy or passive vigor, rtb should be simplified and not giga rng on ur dps

that would be a nice rework

to outlaw

like

giga nice

and

[glass mortar]

give an alternative to the vanish crackshot style that is a bit weaker but more passive and less vanishy

[proven ocean]

delete killingspree

like

actually

delete that shit

[digital linden]

holy W take

[glass mortar]

i dont see that happenign after they put all this work into it

idd tho

[daring oxide]

RTB being simplified is something I'm quite thirsty for tbh, especially after my MICROWAVE evening

[glass mortar]

[daring oxide]

I'm sick of being cuckold to outlaw rtb RNG

[cinder relic]

Kir should be a passive, GS should be a passive, trickster should be overhauled to have less stupid rules, the spec should "just work" when you click the hero talents, Ks should be what wake is to paladin where it gives you fucking everything, give it RTB buffs, give it additional AR uptime, make pressing KS feel as good as wake

[proven ocean]

idk how the devs didnt listen from day 1 alpha about us complaining about fatebound and trickster being EXTREMELY MICROWAVED

and they legit didnt give a shit

from day 1

like

and a squared headed dev is gonna show up

in an interview

YE BUT

ITS AN EXPANSION LEVEL CHANGE

WE CANT DO CHANGES RIGHT NOW XD?

bro

[daring oxide]

By passive you mean making KIR Baseline and not a talent?

[proven ocean]

we were complaining from day 1

wtf are u talking about

???

like

what the helly

[cinder relic]

Make KiR "RTB doesn't reroll it adds" or "all rolls are +1"

Not a weird button with container bullshit

[daring oxide]

ohh

[proven ocean]

like

[daring oxide]

yes

[proven ocean]

i still remember max

[daring oxide]

I really agree with that

[proven ocean]

doing the hero talent tier list

fb+trickster were in dumpster tier

or whatever tier was the lowest

like

it needed a rework

but no

instead

we discover after 1-2 seasons

that the hero talents are way worse than we thought

[daring oxide]

I think Flawless Form needs to go

[digital linden]

its an expansion level change bro u wouldnt understand

[proven ocean]

[daring oxide]

from trickster

because

[proven ocean]

ye ye true true

[glass mortar]

well wdym discover

[honest yarrow]

does it matter what MH i craft between mace/axe/sword? or can i just dripmax

[glass mortar]

i simmed s1 how much st we lost in fatebound anytime we aoed

[proven ocean]

weran

[glass mortar]

it was why kir lost its minor funnel

[proven ocean]

brother

trickster

[glass mortar]

[proven ocean]

is now aoe

we play it now

[glass mortar]

we just had no alternatives

[proven ocean]

ok

but

listen

[glass mortar]

yes i know

[proven ocean]

dont no me

and

trickster now 0st

big aoe

[glass mortar]

yes

[proven ocean]

like

[glass mortar]

same as st

[proven ocean]

wtf is that

and ks 3 min cd

[glass mortar]

only difference is we use it now

[proven ocean]

what the helly

??

like

[glass mortar]

because kspree

yea it sucks

outlaws thing FOREVER has been high prio

good st in aoe build

slamming dungeon st

they took it away

all in 1 season of tuning

crazy

i agree

[daring oxide]

how

[proven ocean]

i feel like the dev didnt evne test killingspree he only said uhh this is recovering fast LOL let me double its cd

[glass mortar]

🙂

[hollow temple]

[proven ocean]

like

[daring oxide]

all they need to do is make it 50% faster, have 50% shorter CD and its perfect

[proven ocean]

atleast i play osrs where balancing isn't an issue

fuck wow

[wintry solar]

"Yeah this is like an ability from another game they play. Drop it"

[hollow temple]

[daring oxide]

lmao this emote is funny

[proven ocean]

99 firemakign inc

[hollow temple]

[wintry solar]

[proven ocean]

this is like

omega afk

so nice

idk what else is omega afk too

[daring oxide]

can we have a riot like ret pala discord

[proven ocean]

will try to find more later

[daring oxide]

to get outlaw trickster ST buffed

[proven ocean]

like pick from bank and xp gg go next

[glass mortar]

i mean st could just use a template buff

its not like kir fate st is blasting in raid

[glass mortar]

its mid at best

mid assuming u have giga uptime and average rng

[proven ocean]

wait u sending crafting too?

[hollow temple]

just 85 for rn

[proven ocean]

i got my 99 like 1-2 days ago

[frail veldt]

For starters honestly the idea of a stealth bar. Probably trim some off gcd filler buttons that just add unnecessary keybinds like GS. Rework the concept of stealth and subterfuge into something that doesn't conflict so much with in combat vs out of combat. I don't think stealth should be removed entirely but having vanish be such a core rotational button is a lil sus

[proven ocean]

firemaking might take 2 weeks idk

its abit slow but its giga chill

[wintry solar]

Don't come around West Closdenshire or you'll get the spadroon

[proven ocean]

100k xp less than crafting tho

not that bad

[hollow temple]

do it properly lol

[daring oxide]

I like vanish because it makes us last to die and immortal

[proven ocean]

wdym

[next wedge]

im progging araz rn with my guild

[glass mortar]

i think hes talking about vanish as a dps button

[hollow temple]

light them 1 by 1 its like 4 times faster kek

[next wedge]

for adds spawns should i be holding KS to use it on them?

[glass mortar]

vanish is way less of an immortal no die button now that we use it almost on cd

[daring oxide]

i know I also like vanish as a dps button too

[proven ocean]

nah im doing them while playing wow i wont play osrs

[cinder relic]

Vanish has been a core DPS button for outlaw for a longer period of time than it hasn't

[proven ocean]

its same xp

so

its just slower

[daring oxide]

I think vanish is cool af

[glass mortar]

i dont mind it but there should probably be an alternative

[proven ocean]

2 min afk is nice

i like that alot

feels like crab

[glass mortar]

vanish is not fun to interface with for more casual players

like if ur in the open world

[hollow temple]

u disgust me sir

[glass mortar]

fighting an elite

[proven ocean]

then i get woodcutting to 90 natty

[daring oxide]

well sub has their own right

[proven ocean]

then redwoods to 99

[glass mortar]

perfectly time ur bte to not reset mobs etc

[proven ocean]

wdym

[daring oxide]

ya in open world its definitely problematic

[frail veldt]

Not to the extent it is now and that doesn't make it a good idea still

[proven ocean]

why would i do it manually

when i can afk

[frail veldt]

Vanish is a problem

[glass mortar]

i guarantee u if a casual resets a mob 1-2 times as law they just respec and dont play it again

[torpid fiber]

Vanish in open world is soooo ass

[frail veldt]

It's just the truth

[wintry solar]

The problem is subterfuge

[proven ocean]

pvpers cooked..

[glass mortar]

its frustrating to interface with in many aspects of the game

[digital linden]

actual dogshit

[frail veldt]

If vanish was just dance for all specs it'd be fine

[hollow temple]

aren't you the guy who tried to tell me crabby was trolling compared to naguas?

what happened mfer

[glass mortar]

the problem mewo is

[hollow temple]

[torpid fiber]

Like yeah you can make it 95% consistent to not reset but that 5% is still enough that it's tilting as fuck

[proven ocean]

that was day 1

[glass mortar]

sub literally has 2 dance charges and cdr

if we just used dance

[proven ocean]

and it was higher xp

still is

[glass mortar]

we would basically be the same to many people

i dont think theyd like that

[proven ocean]

only diff is crab u never pray shit

and u never die

[hollow temple]

noob

[glass mortar]

now i dont really care at all. i like the cadence of how vanish timing works out as a micro damage "heightened window" as a 2 charge 2m cd ability

[hollow temple]

did you ever try the goading VS non goading btw

[glass mortar]

i dont care if its tied to vanish or outlawdance or pirateflurry or whatever the fuk they call it

[hollow temple]

[glass mortar]

the cadence is good and i hope it stays

[proven ocean]

dont talk to me unless ur max combat

bozo

[hollow temple]

ur not even max

[proven ocean]

ye i wont get 99 prayer cuz no point

125 combat

[daring oxide]

like how Assa has shiv, sub as Symbols, outlaw has vanish, but outlaw's one could change to something else more piratey

[wintry solar]

Makes bosses like dimmy feel as bad as they do

[proven ocean]

will only do it if i do speedrunning later

cuz its only necessary for those

nothing else really

[daring oxide]

maybe replace vanish with dreadblades 🙂

[wintry solar]

Uhuh deletion would make me explode confetti

[glass mortar]

uh

if its only dreadblades in name sure

we dont need that functionality back

[frail veldt]

Exactly

[cinder relic]

I mean the issue is theres no good solution here

[glass mortar]

like i said i literally dont care what activates the crackshot window

i just dont want it to go away

[daring oxide]

what was wrong with dreadblades

[glass mortar]

vanish is just an efficient button for them to put it on because we already had it

[frail veldt]

Wdym? Why can't vanish just be a stance button and subterfuge just gets deleted

[glass mortar]

and subterfuge

[daring oxide]

'Double time'

[cinder relic]

Crackshould could also be like "Replaces vanish with gun stance" but then you lose all the utility that vanish actually does offer

[daring oxide]

Pistol frenzy

[glass mortar]

well what if it didnt replace it and vanish just wasnt a dps button

[frail veldt]

You can keep vanish as a defensive who cares or a marginal DPS button

[glass mortar]

what if vanish was just our feign death

[frail veldt]

Crackshot could just be a button though yeah

[wintry solar]

Vanish never should've been deeper than MA or Dust

[frail veldt]

Press crackshot and now bte has no CD for 6 seconds and casts dispatches

[glass mortar]

i dont really care anyway

[daring oxide]

ok so crackshot is a brief stance window where BTE has no CD

[hollow temple]

I’m gonna start sending ToB and CoX this week with my brother

[cinder relic]

It was a terrible talent up until it was put on RB, in which it was 100% uptime and very stupid

[glass mortar]

it seems alot of people do

[cinder relic]

It was underwhelming in legion

It wasn't in BFA

[frail veldt]

Yeah dread blades was way too much

Esp during DF ptr

[glass mortar]

i more want to break out of this breath of cindy forever AR maintenance cycle

[cinder relic]

was in the SL talent trees where it was shit until you could run covenant legendaries

[glass mortar]

cause its so easily fuckoverable with basic mechanics they make in raids

[cinder relic]

added to blades in S2 ptr and then it just had to be removed in DF

[next wedge]

rtb rework in midnight?

[wintry solar]

And now we have so much cdr it almost feels like it didn't matter

[proven ocean]

Nice gl, i prob wont do raids for a while

I’ll just do skilling till i stop wow or someshit

[hollow temple]

Yeah I don’t have long left to send some tryhard stuff like raids, inferno/colo etc

Switching back to a regular day job instead of WFH soon I think

[frail veldt]

Also agree

Outlaw is more punishing than rewarding rn

And I don't think that's entirely healthy

Cuz sometimes you can't avoid disruptions to your rotation

[wintry solar]

Sometimes?

It feels like every other raid boss but I could be wrong

[cinder relic]

The spec is always going to "feel more punishing than rewarding" unless its tuned incredibly high

Its always been an extremely high effort spec

[wintry solar]

Nooo no no. It's actually detrimental rn

[glass mortar]

its just continously gotten higher expac over expac tho

it doesnt need to go away

but it could be tuned down a bit

its also an incredibally tangible "feel" of the punishment u incur for simple raid mechanics

[cinder relic]

If outlaw was 10% better than it is rn, I don't think anybody would be saying the same thing

[glass mortar]

its not just the dps meter

[cinder relic]

Other than dimensius ofc

[glass mortar]

idk we were tuned really well last season, easily the best outlaws been since s3 df and we still complained

imagine saying we'd ever stop complaining in here, even if it was perfect

😠

[next wedge]

just about KS

[glass mortar]

i mean no

[next wedge]

that was my only complaint last season at least

[glass mortar]

maybe some people ig

the diehards in here have been complaining about the punishment since late s4 df tho

they love to make endbosses with fancy mechanics

we get more dimi-esques then we get fyrakks

and its just anti fun with this ar minigame

[next wedge]

yea thats true

[glass mortar]

and i hate when my spec gets a giant middle finger

everytime a boss like this exists

dimi is a cool fight

i want to enjoy it

playing it as outlaw is like pounding ur head into the wall

[next wedge]

are other specs not similarly punished by certain types of bosses?

[wintry solar]

I got tired of it by week 4 of the outlaw rework in df tbh

It aged like milk

[cinder relic]

I am not joking people hve been complaining about downtime on this spec since LITERALLY legion

Is it worse now than it was in legion? Probably

[glass mortar]

of course but that doesnt change that downtime has gotten more and more punishing with the changes

[cinder relic]

Have people been complaining about it since the specs inception, literally yes

[wintry solar]

It def is. No probably

[glass mortar]

people r always gunna complain. survival hunters complain about downtime

downtime isnt fun as a melee

that doesnt invalidate that its gotten worse and worse on outlaw

and should be improved

[quaint mauve]

you can’t do anything without adr up

you can cast like

2 ss a minute

[glass mortar]

ur just wholey reliant on rng

u need above average buffs and procs to salvage u back to adr

thats all

[cinder relic]

I mean I get this but at the same time, Literally every 3dps spec in the game has to deal with this

and I think its unreasonable that rogue 1tricks in general are so obsessed with EVERY SPEC NEEDS TO BE GOOD AT ALL TIMEs

[glass mortar]

ok but ours feels the worst of every fuckin melee in the game when the boss says ok u cant hit anything for 30s while i rp

[cinder relic]

You think warlock players feel great that they can't play aff on any boss rn

[glass mortar]

its not about BEING good its about FEELING good

[cinder relic]

Or x spec on y fight

because of z reason

This is how the game works

[glass mortar]

i could give a fuck if i was still last on dimi meters if i got to play my spec the entire fight

i dont know y u keep going back to that

every complaint i have about the downtime, personally, is how it makes outlaw play

i can turn my dps meter off

[cinder relic]

Other specs have similar "my spec doesn't work" issues thop

[proven ocean]

Hes not wrong tho

So

[cinder relic]

Its not about DPS meters

[glass mortar]

sure maybe 20% to the degree outlaw has

[cinder relic]

DId u play SL?

Sepulcur?

[glass mortar]

yes

[cinder relic]

Do you remember halondrus

[glass mortar]

yes

[cinder relic]

Do you think MOST ranged DPS spec felt good about the fact that their specs literally didn't work on the fight

[glass mortar]

did i say he was???

[proven ocean]

[glass mortar]

i literally said earlier every melee in the game complains when boss forces u to have 10s of downtime

and they always will

and that doenst change at all that i feel outlaw feels the worst if u have these frequently and ur forced to drop adr all the time

[cinder relic]

because the 0:30-1:00 intermission phase turns these specs off?

U know what MM hunters have to do on movement fights?

They have to press N

go BM

because MM doesn't work when you have to run around the encounter

[proven ocean]

Ye

[wintry solar]

Fury and bm still plays fine after downtime but you get outlaw dropping adr because of forced downtime it's a completely different experience

[proven ocean]

Fuck me my cough is kinda bad i think i got covid

[glass mortar]

why are you bringing up ranged specs do u imagine im about to defend hal intermission design for ranged dps?

are we just not comparing melee anymore

[proven ocean]

Like its a raw deep ass cough what the helly

[glass mortar]

when was the last time they made a 30 second phase only ranged couldnt dps for

[proven ocean]

[glass mortar]

have they done that even once since hal

[compact narwhal]

its the ciggies

[proven ocean]

I dont smoke cuh

[compact narwhal]

dont lie b

[proven ocean]

Why would i lie to a random ass dude

[late swallow]

Yet you always want the smoke

[proven ocean]

[glass mortar]

id say hal intermission was dogshit design for how it treated range and if they want to make fights like that they would need to bring back pandaria esque ranged movement casting

but i dont think theyve made any bosses like that since

[cinder relic]

Because the experience of "My spec doesn't work on x encounter" is an experience every multi DPS spec in the game has to live with, but for some reason Rogue players seem to think it's exclusive to their spec. "Sub doesn't work without amps" "Sin doesn't work with target swapping" "Outlaw doesn't work with downtime"

[compact narwhal]

are u not smoking ciggie on ur stream? pogger assa rogue?

[cinder relic]

I'd say straight up isn't playable on soulhunters

[proven ocean]

Bro

[cinder relic]

So u know what I did

I press N, go sub

[proven ocean]

Im not zerocool

Wtf ?

[cinder relic]

Put the fries in the bag

[compact narwhal]

i must have u confused

LOL

[proven ocean]

???

[compact narwhal]

[proven ocean]

What the helly

[compact narwhal]

im fried

[proven ocean]

Everyone in the game thinks im zerocool..

[compact narwhal]

chat am i cooked

[glass mortar]

outlaw doesnt work anytime any mechanic forces you to break out of the adr vanish maintenance loop and they like making fancy important bosses with that mechanic so i think that we should change

because they arent changing boss design

[cinder relic]

They also like making bosses with lots of movement and target swapping?

[proven ocean]

Bro thinks hes the main charecter 💀

0 replies no cappy

[cinder relic]

DO MM Players type in the MM discord every day about how unfair it is that MM Is bad on movement fights

[proven ocean]

Or??

[compact narwhal]

besides urs

LOL

its fs covid then

[proven ocean]

I am the main charecter tho

So

Im not wrong cuh

No cappy

[compact narwhal]

go take covid test

[proven ocean]

Eh why would i

[wintry solar]

Guy wants us in subterfuge Hell forever

[glass mortar]

is this a real comparison

[cinder relic]

No?

[proven ocean]

I had covid before it was w.e

[compact narwhal]

we have known outlaw no ADR is giga ass and theres no changing that

so

[glass mortar]

is mm seriously considered bad at movement fights

[compact narwhal]

idk

[cinder relic]

Compared to BM? Yes?

[glass mortar]

worse then shadow priest or ele shaman or 80% of the other ranged out there?

[proven ocean]

Whatt

[glass mortar]

because if this is such a huge problem, as painful as outlaws

[proven ocean]

??

[cinder relic]

There is no reason to play MM On a movement fight when BM exists

[glass mortar]

then every ranged dps must be fucked that isnt bm

[cinder relic]

Bm does full damage and can run around the entire time

[glass mortar]

because alot of them have less move casting then mm

[proven ocean]

@glass mortar this

[cinder relic]

Yes many specs are unplayable on hard mythic fights because of movement

[proven ocean]

No cappy

[glass mortar]

is there a plethora of dps specs that have a maintenance buffs that get broken by raid fights

[proven ocean]

Guy is overarguing u rn

[cinder relic]

Literally yes

[proven ocean]

[glass mortar]

alright well ive never played them i guess because i havent found any melee thats as dogshit as law on fights that break adr to play

i'll need to try more

which specs have a maintenance buff where ur gameplay turns off if you incur random downtime and drop ur buff for 40s

i'd like to try them

[proven ocean]

Destro lock sucked too back then i think

Legit a root class

Maybe still iss

But

[late swallow]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1372158613312897036/1376317636249518170/speechmeme.com_25_05_2025_23_54_45.gif

[proven ocean]

If u have to cast

[random obsidian]

The punishment for dropping adr shouldnt be straight up not being able to press buttons

[proven ocean]

U cant move

No cappy

Like

Worse than adr maybe

[glass mortar]

i'll go give it a try for real to see how bad it is with shit like dimi

[wintry solar]

That's literally just as bad as MM not being able to move

[glass mortar]

i just dont know a spec like that

breath frost dk is the last one i can think of

[fathom bramble]

Except breath is only during breath

[compact narwhal]

theres 2 other specs u can play

[fathom bramble]

Instead of 100% of the fight

[compact narwhal]

other classes dont have that

[digital linden]

irregardless of that i mean its not weird that weran or any other law player feels frustration when u literally cant play

[glass mortar]

mb we shouldnt discuss problems that could be improved as outlaw when that was the start of this discussion because we have other specs we can play

i forgot

[random obsidian]

Maybe, I don't raid, but I doubt they made more Halondrus like fights, it would be a legit issue for MM if they often had to deal with it tho

[glass mortar]

[cinder relic]

Ur not understanding what I'm saying

[wintry solar]

Breath is what I wanted adr upkeep to be

[glass mortar]

i think u arent understanding what im saying actually

[cinder relic]

But also, current shadow is like this

[glass mortar]

you keep saying "other people have this issue to"

and i said the very first part of this i agree

i just think its more awful GAMEPLAY WISE for us

UNENJOYABLE

[next wedge]

ranged so dont care tax all ranged players

[glass mortar]

id like to see it improved

[fathom bramble]

It would feel less bad if there was literally any upside going on. Every ranged spec mentioned has the clear and obvious upside of having +35 yard range

[cinder relic]

Do you think the gameplay of specs like MM is good when you literally can't cast or do anything because u can't turret the boss for x amount of time as you have to run around for mechanics?

[late swallow]

Foreverguy cooking nukes holy

[indigo token]

ALL 12's TIMED

[glass mortar]

ok but the amount of bosses they do this on is once in a fucking blue moon because if MM is so bad due to movement its unviable then that eliminates 80% of the ranged dps specs in the game

i dont understand

i get the comparison to bm

i just dont think its relevant

[next wedge]

only melee specs should have fun

[cinder relic]

I don't mean this in a, I'm talking down to you way

But are you aware of how much more constently BM is played in a WF setting than MM

No matter how good MM is, BM is almost always the better spec

[elder phoenix]

naw mean it guy

[indigo token]

isnt outlaw never taken because it has no burst

[elder phoenix]

SAY IT WITH YOUR CHEST

[indigo token]

last time it was in a wf was broodkeeper

[late swallow]

Broodkeeper had a legendary dumpy

[glass mortar]

of course it is, bm is a 50 yard range melee spec that can do every mechanic on any fight while losing little dps

[indigo token]

fr id fuck the shit outta that dragon

[glass mortar]

if u wanna keep making this about bm i will happily say i dont think a spec like bm should exist

no ranged in this game has 100% uptime no loss from movement

only bm

and it sucks marks is part of the class bm is on

thats a pretty unique issue they should also fix!

and us!

[cinder relic]

well the devs disagree

[glass mortar]

sure

im not a dev tho

[digital linden]

and thats a shame

[glass mortar]

im not giving u the devs opinions

[covert kestrel]

The shareholders fucking love playing BM

[elder phoenix]

everyone loves playing bm

lol isnt bm one of the most played classes

[cinder relic]

Okay but the thing is that MM is also good ON SOME ENCOUNTERS

[covert kestrel]

Only the castrated amongst us

[cinder relic]

The thing is that these specs exist within the same class

You can play different specs

[covert kestrel]

Ez plus people fucking love pets

[cinder relic]

OUtlaw is undertuned, It sucks, I am all on board for this

Fight design fucks outlaw, and general tuning isn't great

[glass mortar]

ok but that means nothing to me, im talking about problems with outlaw id like to see improved, and "you can just play another spec" isnt a counter to me wishing for my spec to be improved

im not asking for more damage

[cinder relic]

But the general philosphy of "these encounters are bad for a spec" is not a UNIQUE to outlaw problem

[glass mortar]

im not asking for cds

im not asking for a damage profile change

[haughty wigeon]

Lock your discord

[glass mortar]

im asking for my spec to not stop playing the game

if a fight makes u drop adr

[haughty wigeon]

For puffs

[glass mortar]

u can make me lose 40% dps on these fights

[covert kestrel]

Give us daggers

[glass mortar]

just please for the love of god

i want to press buttons

its a spec about pressing buttons

[cinder relic]

A majority of specs experience similar "I cant play issue" when an encounter decides it to be the case

[glass mortar]

who please name me the spec that can drop a buff and turn into vanilla wow version of themselves for 20-30 seconds on a fight

i will try them i truly will i believe u ive just never seen it

ive found nothing in this game as awful to play as law when a fight makes u drop adr

[covert kestrel]

Bake adr in, I wanna be cozy in 0.8gcd like a lil cherry in a pie

[elder phoenix]

then dont play outlaw

[wintry solar]

It does feel like cata combat doesn't it?

[elder phoenix]

lul

easy fix

[glass mortar]

if u dont get a good roll with no adr it feels like vanilla wow

[random obsidian]

if you lost only the gcd it wouldnt be as bad

[glass mortar]

cata is pushing it

cata is with good rolls

[cinder relic]

Shadow

[glass mortar]

shadow is never not pressing a button

no ranged spec does this

it must be a melee

im talking about the downtime in your rotation

[cinder relic]

assassination rogue

[glass mortar]

the u watching the screen afk cause u cant press buttons

[elder phoenix]

ferals actually need downtime

[glass mortar]

ok thats baked into sin tho. is there a buff that if u drop it gets worse? like u go to half apm? or 20% less?

[cinder relic]

In a literal sense, yes

Envenom

Bleeds

No blindside procs

[leaden sonnet]

Both assa and sub have a substantial part of their rotation being literally just auto attacking

[elder phoenix]

sub has a few downtimes too

[glass mortar]

yes i know, and thats by design

[elder phoenix]

tbh

Ferals as well

[glass mortar]

(its why i dont like them)

but if u dropping a buff due to a raid mechanic can obliterate ur apm and take like 20-30 seconds to recover it i wasnt aware

i'll need to give sin a try and feel it out i guess

[indigo token]

yknow

i like it when you drop ar

but you have enough procs to get it up again

thats satisfying

[wintry solar]

Gives me time to scratch my nose between SS casts

[late swallow]

Me doing poppers between 90sec sub windows

[indigo token]

girl???

[wintry solar]

Also, why are we using other specs as a justification to say outlaw is fine being as bad as it in in downtime with dropping adr?

[glass mortar]

i just dont believe anyone in the game feels as awful to play over something as small as dropping a maintenance buff as law

[cinder relic]

When sins plates fall, the spec stops entierly

[glass mortar]

but i'll get some daggers and give sin a try this weekend

[cinder relic]

and its already the 2nd? slowest spec in the game

Now, I'd say outlaw reramping without AR is expceptionally shit

exceptionally*

[glass mortar]

thats literally all ive been saying the entire time fwiw

exactly what u just said

maybe i said it badly and if i did im sorry

[fathom bramble]

sin plates are a thing but it's just not comparable

[hidden mauve]

I just wish KIR felt as smooth as HO

[cinder relic]

I'm aware, my point has always been "Other specs deal with similar thing of the spec stops working, just not in the same way where you have to reramp exactly"

[glass mortar]

i dont think the reramp should be a thing

especially for a spec designed to be the fastest in the game

i think outlaws lows should be u spamming SS as it does zero damage

[cinder relic]

MM "stops working" not in the sense that your spec goes from 70 apm to 40 apm, but it stops working in the sense that you just don't have an opportunity to play at all

[glass mortar]

and sending 1 finisher every 6-7 buttons

the damage would be shit

the gameplay would still be pressing buttons

[elder phoenix]

i dont think outlaw is designed to be the "fastest" in the game

[glass mortar]

thats all im saying

[elder phoenix]

I think thats fury warsr since day 1

[fathom bramble]

I mean like half the casters lose a ton for a short period while moving

[glass mortar]

i mean are u just trolling or

outlaw is like 20 apm faster then fury

and has been for several expacs

[fathom bramble]

but it's not comparable to losing future damage forever from small amounts of downtime

[worldly pawn]

Guys how is coupo the grace with 4 piece? I understand KS has more priority

[fathom bramble]

you start back up right where you left off instantly and immediately on a lot of these specs

instead of getting put in the dirt for 20-40 seconds while you try to climb back out

[glass mortar]

and its not just trying to climb back to it

[worldly pawn]

but When we use Coup de grace we want to use it twice? or boost the second use with combo points too?

[glass mortar]

its how awful the gameplay of climbing back is

literally all i want to do is spam SS

its an auto attack at this point

let me mash SS every global for 7s then do 1 finisher

[compact narwhal]

boost if you can w opp proc or bf

[glass mortar]

if you would press SS to build, you coup regardless of CP

for both uses

[fathom bramble]

specs like MM also get to do significant chunk of their damage during cooldowns so as long as they have some kind of CD plan it's unlikely that any downtime would actually destroy them

[glass mortar]

and yes kspree is higher prio

[indigo token]

this might be a bad take, but I think a portion of how bad outlaw feels without AR could be solved by reducing the uptime of underhanded upper hand BUT, increasing base energy regen and making you restore more of AR's CDR when you dont have it up

[worldly pawn]

ty guys

[honest yarrow]

This might be a stupid question but can I just craft a 1h mace or axe instead of the everforged longsword? I noticed it specifically listed the sword in the FAQ

[indigo token]

thats just an idea off the top of my head though

I dont think it matters

[glass mortar]

weapon type doesnt matter as long as its slow

and has agi on it

[honest yarrow]

KK

[glass mortar]

do a bladed weapon tho cause maces use the other type of stones and thats cringe

[honest yarrow]

We learn

We grow

[glass mortar]

and also more expensive

still i think?

[honest yarrow]

Yeah but my offhand is gonna be dim mace

[cinder relic]

Ive been saying for literally 2 years now that the spec needs a massive overhaul in regards to having "way too much of everything" atm

I write about it in my articles all the time

[fathom bramble]

one thing to note is that this has always been a problem to some significant degree even before uhuh

since our cooldown timing is basically random we can't actually do the same planning that other specs get to

so you end up losing casts of AR and getting put perma behind

[indigo token]

yeah i saw I got really mad about that cause I thought you wanted to return to like, BFA where you fished for buffs on RTB or fucking combat rogue

[glass mortar]

sure i mean hyper cdr specs are always going to be more punished by downtimes/intermissions/yada yada

[fathom bramble]

(this is why we need 2 charges btw)

[honest yarrow]

Maybe I will craft sword though so I can farm for floodgate dagger

[glass mortar]

thats not going away unless the change outlaws base which i dont want them to do

[honest yarrow]

And then only worry about one stone

[cinder relic]

BFA and SL outlaw played broadly the same

Main difference was the covenants obviously, and then RTB spender vs CD

But the spec fu ndamentally were very similar

Either version is what I enjoy imo

More so than the current design

[random obsidian]

SbS MfD Outlaw was so fun in m+

[proven ocean]

I hated covenants

[random obsidian]

I trade trickster for old SbS

[proven ocean]

They sucked balls

[indigo token]

Im a huge fan of this current version unfortunately

[wintry solar]

You know those websites that told you the percentage of players using X talent?

[cinder relic]

Yeah I'm glad people enjoy current Outlaw

[indigo token]

i know its unsustainable and unpopular

[random obsidian]

murloc io

[cinder relic]

I am okay with playing specs seasonally

[indigo token]

[random obsidian]

something like that

[glass mortar]

its not unsustainable it just has too much shit stacked on top of the core gameplay loop that needs to be cleaned up

[wintry solar]

I was one of the 0.2 players using Dreadblades

[glass mortar]

crackshot window with ace is perfection honestly

[wintry solar]

I meant in general

[glass mortar]

ace was such a minor gameplay thing, almost unnoticable forever

[random obsidian]

yeh i just named one randomly

[glass mortar]

crackshot really codified it for outlaw imo

[wintry solar]

Oh okay

[indigo token]

I definitely want crackshot to stay

[fathom bramble]

uhuh is amplifying a problem we have had since legion

[indigo token]

I love how it feels

[random obsidian]

was dreadblades even decent back then

[fathom bramble]

and something has got to be done to that

[indigo token]

getting reset after reset

https://tenor.com/view/buh-gif-14465458220549268962

[glass mortar]

now u can make crackshot without uhuh or even vanish so i hope it doesnt go away

[honest yarrow]

So with trickster in keys I understand the flow is roll -> roll -> KiR if 3+ buffs -> roll again, how soon should I roll again after that fourth roll? Just on CD for supercharged points?

[glass mortar]

well wdym roll roll

[wintry solar]

The wording in one of the articles looks grim for crackshot

[glass mortar]

are u playing last seasons tier set?

[honest yarrow]

No, current 4pc

[indigo token]

ok if you're going to change or remove UHUH

at least keep the blade flurry part

[indigo token]

once again blizzard fucks the rogue

[glass mortar]

ok well you dont just roll at certain exact times

[elder phoenix]

I havent played outlaw since cata

[glass mortar]

you roll based on ur buffs

[elder phoenix]

and im playing outlaw now

Its fun

[glass mortar]

as in, how many of them

[wintry solar]

Something along the lines of "even though we know there are passionate players, some design aspects aren't what we want for our players"

Something along those lines.

[indigo token]

i was gonna say

wtf are you doing here

[glass mortar]

so you'd roll if you only had 1 buff and loaded dice up, or no buffs

[elder phoenix]

Im playing outlaw now though

[indigo token]

https://tenor.com/view/squid-game-oh-my-god-bruh-saleswoman-oh-my-god-bruh-gif-2398788864743270124

[elder phoenix]

But i dont raid now a days just M+

:V

[random obsidian]

I kinda miss the "builder-spender with a nice flow" Outlaw, crackshot would be fine if it wasnt the only playable version of outlaw rn

[wintry solar]

I tried to find it and show yall but it was taking too long

[elder phoenix]

wait no i lied i did outlaw during shadowlands for 1 BOSS only

[honest yarrow]

Yeah I’m just wondering if I’m fucking myself by rerolling when I don’t need to or not rolling enough

[cinder relic]

I just play rogue, and I play the fun specs, Right now Outlaw isn't a lot of fun, so I haven't been playing it as much (to me)

[honest yarrow]

I have the WA to tell me when to KiR but that’s about it

[fathom bramble]

if you don't take ace which is surprisingly close to other builds in aoe then you get to have crackshot without the portions of it that make it play differently

[indigo token]

Sin single target makes me want to die

[elder phoenix]

idk about that i think outlaws the most fun for like multiple expansions now

[indigo token]

and I dont know how to play sub

so outlaw for me

[cinder relic]

Fuck yeah

[indigo token]

like

[wintry solar]

All crackshot does is change spender prio in stealth with or without ace

[elder phoenix]

But im an old killiing spree enjoyer So LOL

[cinder relic]

I love that for you (not sarcastic)

[indigo token]

running out of energy in single target

is like

[cinder relic]

I'm glad you enjoy it

[indigo token]

its like trudging through molassas

wow is the big apm proc game

[random obsidian]

But then you deal noodles damage dont you?

[glass mortar]

#1276308344813916261 message

[indigo token]

let me do big apm proc shit!!!

RAHHHHH

[fathom bramble]

no

it was a competitive dungeon build last season to literally not take ace

it's somewhat close now but I don't recall the exact %

lower than 5

[glass mortar]

is this actually confirmed this season?"

cause the ace sims we had last season was for HO build

[random obsidian]

Whats the point of crackshot without ace?

[glass mortar]

i dont know if kir can afford to drop ace

its cp generation in crackshots even in aoe is not that reliable

[wintry solar]

I can't fathom kir without ace

[glass mortar]

HO has guarenteed 2 builder finishers in crackshot so like

for it dropping ace was only like 5%

[indigo token]

@wintry solar https://www.wowhead.com/news/apex-talents-and-new-hero-talent-lanes-for-every-spec-in-midnight-378293#weakaura-requirements-for-classes

[wintry solar]

Even I have a line to draw somewhere

[pseudo vale]

in keys do we use BF on CD when low CPs if so at how many targets?

[fathom bramble]

you might be surprised what builds can sim close to what we consider to be mandatory

1fth 1take 'em is close on ST fatebound kir

[elder phoenix]

I personally want to see a decline of dependence to weakauras over all

[wintry solar]

It was a different interview

[elder phoenix]

but then again weakauras took over addons from time yonder

[honest yarrow]

Ty

[wintry solar]

2fth reminds me how fun outlaw could be

[fathom bramble]

exactly 5% loss to run 2fth instead of 1fth ace in my current gear on trickster kir

[proven ocean]

Cooked takes as usual

Nothing new moot moot

[glass mortar]

in what, aoe or st

[elder phoenix]

What? how is that cooked. Do you want to be dependent on weakauras? lol

[fathom bramble]

dungeonslice

[proven ocean]

Ye

[elder phoenix]

Yikes

[proven ocean]

Says the guy that loves acro being deleted

[hollow bloom]

Going to be fun to see the extermination of weakauras and addons in the next expansion

[proven ocean]

💀

[elder phoenix]

opposite i didnt want acro to be deleted

In fact i want it back

[proven ocean]

It was never deleted

It was reworked

Bozo

[elder phoenix]

or reworked then

[fathom bramble]

as long as blizzard can make an energy/combo point bar that isn't terrible the default ui is already good enough for almost everything

[proven ocean]

[dawn talon]

except BUFF TRACKING

[wintry solar]

You know what he meant bozo

[elder phoenix]

old acro was better but I understand why they "reworked" it

[proven ocean]

Nope

U dont

[fathom bramble]

just don't play kir

fixed

[dawn talon]

it's annoying playing arcane

[proven ocean]

Moot says he wants outlaw to be slow like guardian druid

[dawn talon]

without weakauras for tempo burden and intuition bad luck protection

[fathom bramble]

considering that their stated reason for having reworked it was just not real I'm not sure anyone can really understand why they reworked it

[proven ocean]

I wonder why

[random obsidian]

you understand the reasons they gave at the time, or still do even to this day?

[glass mortar]

what do u take as kir fatebound st if u dont take ace

surely something else because its an 8% loss for my profile to drop it

[elder phoenix]

didnt they take majority of the melee range talents away or reworked them?

[glass mortar]

and the only other thing i see to take is the mastery node

8% is massive

[proven ocean]

No classes needed it except outlaw so

[fathom bramble]

probably nothing will make it close idk

[proven ocean]

They’re just cooked and they didnt know

[elder phoenix]

Ferals had that too but they took it away from ferals

[fathom bramble]

my point was just that it's close in keys/aoe

[indigo token]

i cant believe we're gonna see KIR die because blizzard is too stupid to make buff tracking

[fathom bramble]

largely thanks to precise cuts allowing for an extra acceptable talent

[proven ocean]

Wasnt needed for them tho so ye

[elder phoenix]

ferals had it first

[proven ocean]

Balance druid still has it

Nah

We had it first

[glass mortar]

kir has some very unintuitive elements

[fathom bramble]

feral and outlaw got it on the same patch

[glass mortar]

it needs to be smoothed out alot

or i can see them deleting it if they dont wanna bother

id be sad if it was deleted tho its a cool idea

[elder phoenix]

Oh word? when?

[fathom bramble]

legion

[elder phoenix]

Naw

[glass mortar]

the only iteration theyve done on it since release was reducing the cd by 1m

[elder phoenix]

ferals had that before legion i think

[proven ocean]

Cooked moot

No cappy

[elder phoenix]

I think ferals had that during MOp

if i remember correctly, idk though might be wrong

[glass mortar]

it was added in legion

boomkin always had it didnt they

in their spec tree

then they gave it to all the druids

[proven ocean]

They make the melee experience inconsistent across classes in a way we’re not happy with, so we’re removing them << a dev that never knew outlaw had a spec identity

[glass mortar]

it wasnt even feral to be clear

[proven ocean]

[elder phoenix]

moonkins had it int heir spec but ferals got it through moonkin spec

I think

[glass mortar]

it was a classwide ability increase for druids

[proven ocean]

Its crazy how devs

Dont play the game anymore

They just do designs in the background

[elder phoenix]

during MOP hold up

[glass mortar]

mop didnt have spec trees tho

it had the new talent design

[proven ocean]

U mean moonkin aura or someshit whatever it was

[glass mortar]

thats feral

[gaunt phoenix]

can't replicate

log !?

[proven ocean]

Soul of the forest check that one

Mgiht be it

[wintry solar]

I'm vendoring cudgel. Idc for weapon swapping anymore. Would rather take the L.

[glass mortar]

thats energy refund per CP spent

[indigo token]

on everyones soul we love cp refunds

[glass mortar]

someone talked about it earlier i already told vai

its the ability bar breaking

[proven ocean]

Idk

[glass mortar]

vai just didnt realize

[proven ocean]

I go sleep now tho

[glass mortar]

the cancelaura removes ur stealth bar

so u need ambush on ur baseline bar

[mighty pivot]

common popo L

[gaunt phoenix]

i see

[glass mortar]

apparently if u spam the macro it can break your stealth bar and bring you straight to ur out of stealth bar even in subterfuge

i wonder if the macro fixes it?

the macro reads subterfuge as a ambush stance doesnt it

!ambush

[ornate heath]

It is possible to use a macro to cast Ambush during Stealth/Audacity and Sinister Strike otherwise, instead of using the stealth bar:
/cast [known: Hidden Opportunity, bonusbar:1] Ambush ; Sinister Strike
*This is most useful to swap between HO and KIR builds without changing keybinds.
Stance swap delay is, for now, not an issue since we don't want to cast vanish into ambush anymore.

[glass mortar]

hmm it uses bonusbar and the macro removes ur stealth bar

[gaunt phoenix]

it still works

this macro

[glass mortar]

@daring oxide im stupid there is a workaround

the multispec macro should fix it

[gaunt phoenix]

well idk if i removed my stealth bar 'correctly'

literally cant see

it

[glass mortar]

should try it anyway

[fathom bramble]

I forgot that the reason why we can even take ace off in aoe is because you are talented into precise cuts and can still make it to fan

there is nothing for ST that you can do since you are forced to take ace so there is no sane comparison to be ran

[glass mortar]

ah ok

[wintry solar]

do I know you?

[glass mortar]

well who would wanna play without ace anyway

i say, having gotten 11% proc rate on ace on my last fract kill

[fathom bramble]

idk maybe no one

someone just said it was some colossal loss that made it outright unplayable

[glass mortar]

ace shouldnt be a standalone talent tho

[fathom bramble]

so I said and checked that it was 5%

[glass mortar]

this thing does nothing alone

practically nothing at all

should be part of crackshot

[mighty pivot]

[glass mortar]

or path right to it or something

its a bit nonsensical where it is in the tree imo

[wintry solar]

why are you mean to me?

[mighty pivot]

[wintry solar]

was 10% for me in dungeonslice

[fathom bramble]

compared to?

[wintry solar]

1fth

[fathom bramble]

or where did you put the ace node

[wintry solar]

fth

no ace 2fth vs reg 1fth

[fathom bramble]

why is it doubled for you 🤔

[wintry solar]

stat thing? idk

I can try again

9.1% specifically

[fathom bramble]

what am I looking at https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/26JXWztmAyTPqFLxFHo2Cw

[wintry solar]

no fth lol

[mighty pivot]

the ryukage special 1/2 take 'em

[wintry solar]

bro HATES cp gen

[indigo token]

fth = fuck the hammer = stick your peepee in that part of the gun

:true:

[wintry solar]

[wintry solar]

I forgot I added gear to the mix

[keen belfry]

u ever just jizz on a spider?

[wintry solar]

its 6.9% now

[fathom bramble]

what if there is a no fan improved ambush build in here somewhere

🤔

[indigo token]

going into heroic reclears and (hopefully, I dont get benched) mythic with this

[dawn talon]

i just did zdps to that boss

and then did maybe the wrost araz strat ive ever seen for an hour

[indigo token]

hopefully I can actually get a fucking ring

because im so sick of this 684 piece of shit

[keen belfry]

oswalb im hammered and i rank 1'd

youre cooked

these beers are 9%

[random stirrup]

1fth has gone too far

healer single target

[fathom bramble]

it's literally just accidentally having swift slasher instead of TF making everything shift

1fth with TF correctly talented is still better

[wintry solar]

whats tf

[fathom bramble]

thief's versatility