outlaw

[gaunt phoenix]

that was OUTLAW

[jolly geyser]

I just miss mfd of those

[red zinc]

idk if we're being revisionist as hell but

ER was great

some people hated it i guess

[slate forge]

Mouse over spears for combo points in shadow lands was peak

[gaunt phoenix]

the forum andy's won

[glass mortar]

imagine ghostly strike but instead of a damage debuff u pay no attention to other then to get fukt if u need to target swap

its an ogcd CP filler to use when ur not getting procs

or during crackshot windows

could give it a higher cdr refund off something like not proccing or getting kills

make it cost like 10 energy

[red zinc]

just anything to make it a button that you think about pressing

[slate forge]

0 energy don’t negotiate with Ter. I mean devs

[red zinc]

instead of macro/being as fast as possible

[glass mortar]

well making it cost energy allows it to scale with effects that buff our energy spenders

[red zinc]

increased damage on next finisher so you hold it for crackshot or whatever

not even a good example but

[glass mortar]

and 10 energy is basically net positive for law on average because pressing buttons is part of how we generate energy

10 would be unnoticable

and change fatal flourish to be flat energy on offhand hits instead of a chance

theres is literally 0 reason for this mechanic to have any rng in it

we dont play around our energy pool other then being unable to play if we get bad rng and it runs out

[daring oxide]

I miss MFD so much too

[indigo token]

whats mfd

[gaunt phoenix]

marked for death

[indigo token]

which did what

[daring oxide]

Outlaw rework confirmed

[indigo token]

if they fuck it up

[glass mortar]

this was on restless btw

[jolly geyser]

was nice for lvling also but ye

[glass mortar]

so it was not a 1m cd

at least for a time it was

idr if it always was

[jolly geyser]

cant remember

[gaunt phoenix]

it was

[low gazelle]

I know we are buff heavy, but I really enjoy it the way it is. Can’t they just make better UI to support the class? I’d rather have that personally.

[mighty pivot]

rtb having 6 buffs isn't automatically an issue

[indigo token]

yeah thats the problem

its a ui issue

[gaunt phoenix]

i think our interpretation is that they are going to change KIR and unseen blade. the rest can basically be handled by the cooldown manager thing

[mighty pivot]

rtb buff overwriting logic needs changed more than anything else

[low gazelle]

I thought that was their new hero talent tree that they said did that? The only apex they mentioned was collapsing star would always crit on first point, second and third point just damage buff, and fourth point makes their crit damage scale differently

[midnight granite]

Is solo done cooking fb st?

[gaunt phoenix]

nop

[midnight granite]

I'm hungry

[red zinc]

oh ye true

[gaunt phoenix]

it's kinda fake, or at least not much of a gain as projected

[red zinc]

even more whelming then

[midnight granite]

[vivid vessel]

solo

im gonna be on fractilus tonight prolly

what do i do

[midnight granite]

Outlaw

[vivid vessel]

no but

was the vanish adr gs real

[sudden fulcrum]

Hit boss until dead

[gaunt phoenix]

it is real but it's not like 2% dps

it's gonna be like 0.8% unless you assume bte bug

[vivid vessel]

i se

[midnight granite]

Bte bug

[vivid vessel]

but what do you do about adr tho cause you would need to hold it i think

to line up

if we assume we hold vanish for gs you sitll need to hold adr in that case

but i dont think i like that one

so im not gonna do it !

fuck you !

[midnight granite]

[gaunt phoenix]

it's currently like this

if you dont have a vanish charge:

• send AR and GS on cd

if you DO have a vanish charge:

• hold GS and AR if you can. If AR is ready then vanish at low cps into AR GS. if AR is not ready then build into Vanish GS.

[vapid sundial]

when

[daring oxide]

Yes I think part of the rework is to make the spec easier to visually navigate, it doesn’t mean our fundamentals need to change

[indigo token]

I hope that's the case

[daring oxide]

I personally hope it doesn’t change the skill expression of outlaw, or the fast paced gameplay or the dopamine overdrive hits of the spec, but they’ve chosen to design it in a way that makes no sense to a newcomer, especially with things like unseen blades literally being unseen…

Or container theory (bug?)

No tooltip will explain that we can roll RTB again without losing our buffs after KIR, why was that ever allowed to be a thing

Things like this are quite the critical blunders tbh

Epic fail choices

Unless it’s intended that rogues are just full of Easter eggs we are supposed to discover and play around as part of our identity?

Sneaky interactions

[frail veldt]

I honestly think it could be a good thing

[low gazelle]

Sub isn’t the only one with secret techniques. You just need to learn them first

[frail veldt]

but it does have a risk of destroying a lot of what we like about the spec

rtb container system needs to go

[unreal pagoda]

I hope we lose KIR tbh

[daring oxide]

Things they should absolutely keep are crackshot, UHUH, KIR

[frail veldt]

yeah for sure

[unreal pagoda]

or just fold KIR into RTB in someway when we do something

[daring oxide]

HO is nice for build variety (and lower skill options)

[frail veldt]

What I am most concerned about losing is the dynamic aspect of our rotation

[daring oxide]

But I really think our apex talents should be something to do with RTB

[frail veldt]

if they trim down on our rtb buffs

[daring oxide]

Like allowing us to always be guaranteed to get broadsides with every roll

[unreal pagoda]

I mean Outlaw isnt really dynamic

[frail veldt]

???

[unreal pagoda]

its just always on

[frail veldt]

what

outlaw is probably the most dynamic rotation in the game

we dont even have an opener sequence you can do

everything is reactive

cuz every button has a proc

and that proc leads to different decisions

our procs have procs lol

[lethal oak]

What if the rework is changing it back to combat rogue

[daring oxide]

I don’t think RTB buffs need to be trimmed but if they allow us to select a single RTB buff we are always guaranteed to get, that helps (I’d pick broadsides or true bearing personally, or whatever the sim tells us after solo cooks)

[indigo token]

do you outlaws like crackshot windows

I love them

[daring oxide]

Then I’m gonna reroll to devourer DH

[frail veldt]

I think CtO randomness is important

[daring oxide]

Or feral druid

[frail veldt]

but I do think they could trim out the low lows

maybe reduce buffs to like 3 or 4

delete buried treasure

delete skull and crossbones

[unreal pagoda]

I think you are mistaking having a loose priority for dynamism we are still always feeding fan the hammer or dispatch

[indigo token]

maybe like

[daring oxide]

CTO is fun as I love fishing for buffs, but it really needs bad luck protection

[indigo token]

roll the buffs into other buffs

[frail veldt]

I mean I would argue the opposite

[indigo token]

combine 3 off them into the other 3

[daring oxide]

I sometimes literally don’t get any CTO procs for 2-3 mins

And that is insanely frustrating as KIR

[frail veldt]

dynamic means constantly changing

[lethal oak]

What if the made RTB a finisher and you could just get the buffs you want by spam rerolling

[frail veldt]

thats like by definition how outlaws rotation works

it is ever changing

as you proc/gain buffs/cooldowns come up/etc

[indigo token]

I would rather rip my testicles out of my nutsack and eat them

awful AWFUL idea

[daring oxide]

With every SS or Dispatch used that doesn’t proc CTO, CTO chance needs to increase by 5% each time (or 2.5% if that’s too OP)

[frail veldt]

you can define all specs with an "always"

every spec is "always" pressing buttons

[keen belfry]

so

[frail veldt]

that doesnt make them not dynamic

[keen belfry]

these new talents

[unreal pagoda]

no other spec is always on like outlaw

[keen belfry]

let me take pc and 2 fth

ty

[frail veldt]

always on doesnt mean not dynamic

[daring oxide]

Preach brother awang

[frail veldt]

are you saying sub rogue is dynamic?

[indigo token]

greenskin wickers 2

[hardy thicket]

im assuming you didnt play pre SL then lol

[keen belfry]

incoming popo: well technically u can take pc and 2fth!

🤓

[indigo token]

joined in DFS3

im a newbie

[frail veldt]

dynamic doesnt mean it has periods of activity then periods of inactivity

[hardy thicket]

RtB used to be a finisher

[indigo token]

i heard back in BFA you just fished for good buffs

[frail veldt]

the rotation itself is not formulaic

[indigo token]

which sounds miserable

[keen belfry]

what if our apex talents fix RTB

thoughts?

[hardy thicket]

yeah it sucked

[lethal oak]

What if during AR we had an extra 3 yds on melee, that would fix the spec

[hardy thicket]

you just keep "finishing" with RTB till u had the desired buffs

[unreal pagoda]

I think they really just need to bake KIR into something and make fatebound more iconic

[frail veldt]

well I think the problems theyre highlighting here dont have anything to do with melee range

its mostly our dependency on addons/was

to track all of our buffs that impact our dynamic rotation which there are a lot of

[indigo token]

the thing is the tracking buffs is a CD manager problem

[craggy quiver]

Fishing for buffs was that bad in bfa

[unreal pagoda]

RTB took years to be good

[frail veldt]

it could be but even with the correct wa setup the spec can still be overwhelming

[indigo token]

oh for sure

[unreal pagoda]

it was terrible initially and felt really bad

[frail veldt]

people still just use a "roll the bones now" weak aura

[indigo token]

I will say

[frail veldt]

thats too much

[indigo token]

im surprised they only mentioned festering wounds for UHDK

when its like

the LEAST intuitive spec in the game

[unreal pagoda]

I mean you shouldnt need a 3rd party addon to manage any resource for any class so it makes sense

[frail veldt]

yeah UHDK wounds systme is very annoying imo

[unreal pagoda]

owning the dps meter and nameplates is a smart step

Id love to see how much highend game content can be completed without WA

[frail veldt]

but yeah I think blizzard understands that delivering a UI solution that the community accepts and enjoys over the 3rd party solutions is more work than just redesigning specs to not require as much UI/WA support in the first place

[unreal pagoda]

as they absorb these third party layers hopefully the visual noise of wow combat will change because thats my biggest issue with it in general

[indigo token]

the former is more evergreen than the latter

[frail veldt]

potentially but not necessarily

[vivid vessel]

I think its funny that they talk about these things

[unreal pagoda]

I mean the good news is 90% of the work and implementation has been beta tested for years as addons

[frail veldt]

we make up new things to track every time they come out with a new feature

[unreal pagoda]

its mostly integrating it into wows current ui

[frail veldt]

like UB/Trickster tracker

[vivid vessel]

when the most offensive "need a weak aura" thing outlaw ever had is the very recent trickster

[low gazelle]

That feels like such a sad approach though. I feel like specs should be allowed to be different levels of complicated. We understand there is a lot to manage as outlaw. I’d much rather have in game ways of managing things well, then just simplify outlaw to be more like other specs

[frail veldt]

I think rtb container is pretty offensive

even though were pretty used to it now

[vivid vessel]

well its barely relevant

[indigo token]

whats an RTB container

[gaunt phoenix]

it sounds like WE think they will change kir/trickster but they may be thinking of upending way more than that

[indigo token]

is that the buffs rtb gives

[frail veldt]

see theres the issue haha

the rtb container is the working theory on how rtb buffs work in terms of rolling off/replacing current buffs with new rolls

[indigo token]

oh so after KIR?

[unreal pagoda]

I personally dont like KIR and much prefer all the other builds we've had since DF all 1-2 ? of them lol

[frail veldt]

regardless of KiR

container logic applies to CtO buffs as well

[frail veldt]

is the part you dont like about KiR the rtb logic?

[midnight granite]

2 buffs min

[unreal pagoda]

actually if we have to keep KiR in some way put it in Fatebound

and give us a new shiny in the tree

[midnight granite]

And uncapped bf

Gg spec fixed

[unreal pagoda]

let fatebound be ultimate gamble gacha

[candid moon]

wut WA is "Required" to play outlaw ... i cant think of anything off the top of my head.......

[unreal pagoda]

cant tell if real shaped

[frail veldt]

required is an overly strict word

[candid moon]

yea why im confused...

[frail veldt]

but if you intend to play outlaw "optimally"

[unreal pagoda]

its not really required its mostly a QoL enhancement

[gaunt phoenix]

actual "required" weakaura are the KIR container thing and unseen blade tracker but they are perhaps thinking of more

[frail veldt]

yeah

[ancient cobalt]

you need to to know roll the bones

[frail veldt]

those are the big two

[candid moon]

just RtB really yea...

[frail veldt]

no trickster too

[candid moon]

mk thanks i was just confused

[low gazelle]

I feel like a the bare minimum is tracking the six rtb buffs. Looking through a constantly changing list of buffs to see how many you have is an absolute nightmare

[ancient cobalt]

and rtb is core to itl

its def wha they are referring too

[frail veldt]

the UB system is very convoluted and you lose a lot of dps wasting procs

[inland cairn]

you can track them in base ui right now

[ancient cobalt]

ooo

[frail veldt]

you cannot track container logic in the base ui

[unreal pagoda]

I've decided new KiR is just throwing the dice at our enemies giving them the old bad rolls RTB had

[inland cairn]

or soon

there was a post about it

https://www.wowhead.com/news/huge-updates-to-cooldown-manager-coming-soon-sound-external-and-debuff-tracking-377939

[daring oxide]

Jade Martin confirms outlaw is currently being looked at for potential redesign

[frail veldt]

how does that allow for container logic tracking?

[daring oxide]

[unreal pagoda]

I hate that

[indigo token]

jade martin if you're here

PLEASE

dont do it

[inland cairn]

wasnt replying to that

[indigo token]

https://cdn.7tv.app/emote/01HEAEAFZG0000W70ZM78RHE7T/4x.gif

[unreal pagoda]

fix KiR make sure we have better ways to track buffs leave it alone afterwards

[indigo token]

look into my eyes

[covert heart]

I think it just be some rtb reworks but playstyle being about the same

[jolly geyser]

I hope they rework it so people get upset

[frail veldt]

ah was it for the trickster stuff?

I really hope they just make it a buff we can track

[daring oxide]

Jade Martin looks like a giga chad, the lad is swole and defo does combat irl

[inland cairn]

but its unseen

its lore accurate

[frail veldt]

but right now you have to "infer" via WA scripting how many buffs you have

[inland cairn]

[frail veldt]

I mean regardless of what people think or want to prance around, the fact is blizzard has decided that outlaw requires too many weak auras

and so much so that they want to redesign the spec

which to me implies their roadmapped UI updates dont solve outlaws dependencies as much as they would like

[gaunt phoenix]

a storm is coming

[covert heart]

Redesign could also just be minor stuff. Like who knows

[ancient cobalt]

its probably gonna be way diff than what it is right now

[frail veldt]

can our ship weather it

[ancient cobalt]

a bandaid to rip off hut probably a necessary evil

[unreal pagoda]

we get to be Vergil?

[craggy barn]

so what im hearing is

outlaw will become a ship

[frail veldt]

confirmed first inanimate object spec

[craggy barn]

huge

[gaunt phoenix]

mastery summons a ghost ship, and improves cto proc chance, and increases gun damage, and casts cannonball barrage

[balmy topaz]

SO MANY KEYS

[unreal pagoda]

outlaw goes full gangplank and calls down cannon barrage

[covert heart]

I mean the apm is prob gonna be about the same I figure. Just the amount of wa is alot

[frail veldt]

bruh

thats on you

too high

what if new apex talents make outlaw a gun slinger

20 yard range outlaw

mid range gunner

[ancient cobalt]

id like that

[frail veldt]

100/10

[vivid vessel]

they made ks 8 yard buddy

[frail veldt]

LOL

[vivid vessel]

a litteral gun ability

[unreal pagoda]

devo is already gun wielding voidman

[random stirrup]

Apex talent that increases range of all abilities by 1 yard per point

[gaunt phoenix]

they remove stealth windows and instead KS or something makes us whip out the guns and we are in fuckin gun mode for a bit

[unreal pagoda]

Can I just ditch my offhand for a flintlock thats basically an artifact

[frail veldt]

I mean that would be so sick

I love crackshot but I dont love its stealth dependency

[covert heart]

What if the new apex talents make it so your ks does some like weird melee ability that you cant get out of and may possibility kill you

[unreal pagoda]

KS animation still needs a bit more work IMO I get the kenway vibes but it looks janky to me

[frail veldt]

if we could move away from needing stealth I would be a very happy camper

[vivid vessel]

we finally have our damage window tied to cds on charges

[unreal pagoda]

and it resets BTE for bad outlaws like me

[frail veldt]

just make outlaw lose vanish and have it just pull out guns instead

all crackshot windows are now 25 yard range

imagine

but then bladeflurry issues

idk what theyre gona do haha

[gaunt phoenix]

during gun mode flurry is 40y

[frail veldt]

IMAGINE

[inland cairn]

great cooking guys, cant wait to see the 3 lines of changes in the midnight patch notes

[unreal pagoda]

they could just make blade flurry gun fury

[frail veldt]

nah Id be willing to bet we get a lot of changes

[inland cairn]

ye

[frail veldt]

but in blizzard fashion some of them are really good and some of them are just BARELY not good

[gaunt phoenix]

and bugged !

[frail veldt]

yeah that too 🙁

[unreal pagoda]

actually ngl imagine if popping BF made FTH/BTE cones

[inland cairn]

but if dh now has a hybrid range class, why cant we

[vivid vessel]

ok but you pull the whole map

[frail veldt]

nah it only hits in combatr

[gaunt phoenix]

only hit in combat like starfall

[frail veldt]

theyve fixed that

yeah

[vivid vessel]

[inland cairn]

we will be uncapped so its good

[unreal pagoda]

nah we get a sniper rifle now

[frail veldt]

thats marksman

[unreal pagoda]

no we are the gunman

[gaunt phoenix]

hire me i will create gun mode

[unreal pagoda]

and we get killstreaks

[frail veldt]

have you ever thought about applying haha

[inland cairn]

just make it like warrior stance, sword stance/gun stance

[gaunt phoenix]

No

game development in current year

california living expenses in current year

[frail veldt]

lol yeah im in california

If somehow my current company went to the moon and I wanted to change pace Id consider it

[inland cairn]

and under microsoft at that

[frail veldt]

but they just like dont pay competitively

compared to any other job in tech in california

im an embedded engineer though so not sure theyd even want me

zac move to california and fix outlaw

[buoyant cosmos]

Irvine is a nice city too

[unreal pagoda]

I wouldnt aint no way blizz is competitive

[buoyant cosmos]

COL is nuts though

[proven ocean]

@vivid vessel liquid win today..

[gaunt phoenix]

method win

[covert heart]

You dont wanna get paid kansas wages in California to work for blizzard?

[buoyant cosmos]

you think it's gonna be a lust p3?

[buoyant cosmos]

who wouldn't?

[unreal pagoda]

The pay isnt even the worse part its more then likely in office and you live in CA

thats ass

[frail veldt]

living in CA is ass?

[buoyant cosmos]

For 90% of people living in costal CA is the dream

[unreal pagoda]

around where blizz HQ is unless you arent rich

[buoyant cosmos]

amazing weather, year round activities

[frail veldt]

I mean blizz doesnt pay that bad

[strange violet]

when opening, does it matter if you rtb before adreneline rush?

[unreal pagoda]

Oh yea it does based on the IC Ladder

[covert heart]

I wouldnt really wanna live in Cali either tbh

[frail veldt]

theres plenty of people living in CA with far less money having a great time

[gaunt phoenix]

you AR first for loaded dice buff

[unreal pagoda]

im a IC7 and I guarantee I wouldnt get competitive wage from Blizz

[buoyant cosmos]

Are you in SoCal or Nor?

[frail veldt]

yeah ofc

[desert tendon]

@wintry solar in 2 weeks we silksong

[frail veldt]

northern

[desert tendon]

[buoyant cosmos]

It's nice up there

[frail veldt]

not saying blizz pays competitively

im saying blizz pays more than enough to not be paycheck to paycheck lol

[buoyant cosmos]

Lifestyle creep hits hard in CA as well

[unreal pagoda]

thats completely dependent on in office or not

[frail veldt]

youre saying in office makes life a lot more expensive?

[unreal pagoda]

and then you are stuck in traffic for a 3rd of your day

I did the Silicon Valley vibe never again

[frail veldt]

I liev in silicon valley

my commute is like 20 minutes

[unreal pagoda]

are you in FAANG

[frail veldt]

no

[unreal pagoda]

startup?

[frail veldt]

no lol

[unreal pagoda]

then you must be lucky because both of those categories suck

[sudden fulcrum]

Imagine having a commute in 2025

[unreal pagoda]

having been in both ladders in SV was horrible

[unique fulcrum]

are u guys playing with ur spell queue window set to 400?

[gaunt phoenix]

yeah i am though it's a bit preference

[frail veldt]

I upped mine to 200 this season

[unique fulcrum]

what exactly does it do, mine is at 70

[buoyant cosmos]

Are most of you playing on your closest server for the best ping?

[full rain]

is HO playable in keys with new 4set or

do we just play kir

[buoyant cosmos]

pretty sure it's only kir

ho was >10% down

[gaunt phoenix]

ho is >10% for big pulls but overall its more like 5-6% or smth

which is "fine" though not recommended

[buoyant cosmos]

Do you know if anyone has tried fatebound streets yet solo?

[gaunt phoenix]

idk

[sacred rune]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/apex-talents-and-new-hero-talent-lanes-for-every-spec-in-midnight-378293

outlaw rogues mentioned

[gaunt phoenix]

ye we getting nuked

[spare dome]

didnt they mention outlaw only because they asked them in interview

[regal saffron]

Bye bye pirates

[spare dome]

and they didnt know anything about the class so they switched to talking about dk?

[desert tendon]

Outlaw nerfs inc

[rotund zodiac]

Outlaw getting reworked next expac

[cinder relic]

I want outlaw to go back to something actually simple idk

call me crazy

BFA outlaw was so simple, it was just build and spend efficiently

[glass mortar]

we have a lot of unintuitive rules that i dont think add much fun playability to the spec

we also have some more indepth but fun rules i hope they dont just simplify everything

but a lookover definitly wouldnt be a bad idea

[ocean lodge]

Crackshot is crack

[sudden fulcrum]

Yes that’s where I first played it and enjoyed it most

[vague cape]

are they gonna mention that if you're not like 1k+ hours on it you basically can't perform?

[ocean lodge]

If crackshot and the new KS stay I'm more or less happy

[sacred rune]

only 1k hours

damn

[ocean lodge]

from what I hear, everyone is.

[vague cape]

maybe more even idk xd

[sacred rune]

did not know outlaw became that easy

[vague cape]

watching daizr struggle to play it on soul hunters actually brought the point home

there's just too much shit

to optimise

[rotund zodiac]

I want outlaw to have a little less apm

[vague cape]

not something I want but a friend really hates sinister strike / generators in general on kir

[desert tendon]

1k hours he said

[vague cape]

[desert tendon]

Tell them fuu

[vague cape]

there was a + guys cmon

[desert tendon]

[fallen knot]

if they make outlaw a 40apm spec zac will quit wow

[desert tendon]

Just have too Much going rn

Outlaw can keep the apm

Just need to be more intuitive

[vague cape]

apm or a lot of conditionals, pick one

[proven ocean]

Idk im not watching prog no idea how tight p2 is

[fallen knot]

and zeross will become onetrick outlaw again (assa cooked him)

[desert tendon]

It s rogue should be mainly building and spending

[vague cape]

both together with extreme punishment for mistakes is just a recipe for pain

[desert tendon]

Rn it s too much imo

[vague cape]

and it's not like there's a huge payoff for playing it

[ocean lodge]

I mean a lot of the problem is that blizzard's default ui is actual trash for buff tracking.

[desert tendon]

As i liked df s3 it was already too much for like 95% of the outlaw players

[ocean lodge]

like

It could use simplification but I also don't want them to turn all the complex specs into ret paladin

[vivid vessel]

i mena

just nuke the whole trikcster ub thing

[cinder relic]

There is room between 80 apm and 95%+ ar uptime and 40 apm ret paladin

Js

[vivid vessel]

and nuke 1 fth

[grim spear]

just nuke all hero talents of outlaw

and we will be fine

[indigo token]

nuke rogue

delete the class

[proven ocean]

They need to bring pre nerf fth

It was very good

[grim spear]

hero talents just bring unfun stuffs and do nothing

totally failure

[proven ocean]

Outlaw is way harder than it should be atm

[astral jay]

I love how they mention one skill of unholy DKs...
... and the entire Outlaw spec

[indigo token]

like

are they fucking with us

Unholy is THE LEAST INTUITIVE SPEC IN THE GAME

[cinder relic]

So wrong it hurts

[indigo token]

ehhh

i mean deathstalker stinks

[proven ocean]

Cooked take

All rogue hero talents are badly implemented

[indigo token]

fatebound is entirely passive and actively nerfs itself

and trickster only became fun this season

[proven ocean]

All have scuffed bugs and things that make u hate the game

[cinder relic]

Trickster Sub is amazing

[proven ocean]

Therefore hero talents suck

[cinder relic]

FB sin is super good with the Tier set

[buoyant cosmos]

same

[indigo token]

specificially for outlaw

trickster was ass

[proven ocean]

Fb sucks in m+ coin doesnt last long so fatebound sucks

No fix on everything that must be fixed

[grim spear]

maybe the 5 spec reworks in 10.2 make realz cooked

[strong halo]

Anyone know how much they do overall on arak? I did 7m on a 12 wondering if that’s fine or low

[proven ocean]

Not a huge fan of coup costing energy on sub but it feels nice

[grim spear]

and then he came up with 5 ridiculously dumb hero talents.

[proven ocean]

Sub needs to pool energy sometimes in m+ for coup

Otherwise u end up having to press it last second and if ur forced out its gg

Its not unplayable but definitely sucks

[gaunt phoenix]

We don't know who came up with shit

imo fixating on him specifically is bad faith esp. since you know he is in here sometimes

[glass mortar]

i said it back in 11.0 but rogue is a hard class to make hero talents for because its been such low fantasy forever and all the rogues in lore are just generally stealthy stabby boys

plus needing to share the trees between specs

i dont like how they ended up

[random stirrup]

only because of tier set

The base tree is fine

[glass mortar]

id say rogue easily has the worst hero talents ive played this expac

not that they are garbage, but most hero talents have been improved to a fair degree over the expac

[cinder relic]

What

[fallen knot]

well

rider dk i've played it some

i legit dont know what it does

[proven ocean]

?

[glass mortar]

rider dk is just fatebound but it has actual visuals

i dont have an issue with purely passive hero talents

[proven ocean]

Sounds like u didnt play enough sub in m+ guy

[cinder relic]

Sub doesn't have to pool for coup what r u on abt

[glass mortar]

but they need some kinda visual flare if they are gunna be completely passive imo

and fatebound didnt reach that for me

[proven ocean]

U do have to pool sometimes m+ what are u talking about

[buoyant cosmos]

tiny coins you can't see don't count?

[proven ocean]

Especially when ur forced to feint insta when couping

[glass mortar]

no they do not

[fallen knot]

i'd love a 30man fatebound raid on soulhunters tbh

with my pc

[buoyant cosmos]

fair

[proven ocean]

Idk why ur pretending like its somethign that never happens

[random stirrup]

You do outside of symbols if you want to get the second coup off

Well technically you don’t but if you need to feint you do

[cinder relic]

Who tf is pressing feint tf

[fallen knot]

real

[proven ocean]

People that dont do +10 keys

[gaunt phoenix]

rare guy being wrong

[cinder relic]

Literally

[fallen knot]

feint is for the weak

[vivid vessel]

rare?

[fallen knot]

build vers you dont need feint

[vivid vessel]

ok common

[proven ocean]

Literally always

What

[cinder relic]

Just stack vers

[gaunt phoenix]

wtf

[fallen knot]

i'm with guy on this

does feint give dam?= no

so dont click

[cinder relic]

Literally

[proven ocean]

Its not even feint related

But ok

It just makes it impossible with feint on all situations

[fallen knot]

skill issued by energy starve

just play outlaw

[proven ocean]

U realize its a hero talents discussion

Not spec related

[cinder relic]

I'm super excited to see what they do with outlaw

[gaunt phoenix]

no !

doom

[fallen knot]

icant wait for the new dh spec that will legit break the game

[proven ocean]

@vivid vessel u heard of the new apex talent system

[fallen knot]

calling it now

[proven ocean]

And new hero talents rows

Abit cooked or?

[fallen knot]

day 1 will be hell for everyone

[proven ocean]

It’ll be an m+ spec

Infinite souls

[fallen knot]

no like it will devour hunters pets in dornogal or some shit

[proven ocean]

And it being able to hit from far makes it omega viable for high keys

[cinder relic]

Ranged dps that can apply dh buff

[cinder relic]

Well it's funny cuz dh in legion as kinda mid

It always fell into the "worse than a rogue" category

Cuz it didn't even have chaos brand

[strong halo]

I’ve been pressing feint before aoe like arak 1st boss have I been doing it wrong the whole time

Should I remove from bars

[fallen knot]

i remember padding so hard with dh on 1st boss of nighthold

it was legit the funniest shit

[proven ocean]

Echo survived till enrage on dimensius

Looks like liquid is stealing the kill tonight

[vapid blaze]

idk liquid was pretty inconsistent yesterday and now right

[proven ocean]

What

Not really

They’re pulling ahead each time a guild ends their raid night

[buoyant cosmos]

they've got like 8 hours to lock in

[vapid blaze]

they have alot more p1/p2 pulls

[proven ocean]

So if echo ends today

Early

Liquid wins

Echo has to kill it before bed

[vapid blaze]

yeah but who knows what echo does
we will see later

[proven ocean]

Otherwise they 100% lose

[vapid blaze]

but prob better to sleep and come back early tmorrow

[proven ocean]

No

They either kill it or they lose

Liquid has the entire fight and they recently started

There are no extra timers

No more mechanics

Everything is mapped out

So

Ye

Its over today

[jolly geyser]

they got dmg for it?

[proven ocean]

But if liquid doesnt play well they 100% deserve to lose

[vapid blaze]

they will find the damage

[proven ocean]

Always unclean pulls

[vapid blaze]

on nexus we saw

[proven ocean]

I think we wont know anytime soon

[vapid blaze]

that they have so much more damage to gain

[fallen knot]

they're talking about moving lust

[vapid blaze]

they lusting p1 rn?

[fallen knot]

yea on pull to nuke the adds

and the boss

[vapid blaze]

then its def killable

[tepid skiff]

yall way too quick to think somethin is killable that easily

[buoyant cosmos]

Nah man, they're just gonna kill it

ez

[vivid vessel]

if it were me as a rogue the boss would be dead already so idk

[vapid blaze]

true if they had james+exile boss dies

[tepid skiff]

what if they literally cant get out of p1 without lust? what if in order to get outta p1 with lust they have to use more cds and or change comp and then the p2 adds live? what if they play perfect all day and move their lust and the boss has 5% hp left and theyve been raiding for 15 hours?

[vivid vessel]

sounds like skill issue

[buoyant cosmos]

why ask questions, just blast and kill it

[gritty hamlet]

interviews have me so excited that RTB is gonna get reworked in Midnight.

[tepid skiff]

idk when i woke up this morning i thought boss dies tmrw

itd take godtier gameplay to kill it today but it isnt impossible i guess

[vapid blaze]

this will def have the most pull count on a boss tho right

or how much was ansurek

[buoyant cosmos]

Have you heard if anyone has tried not lusting p1 yet?

[tepid skiff]

nah i mean tindral was over 400

i dont think this will get to 400

actually fyrak might have been over 400 too i cant remember. yeah also ansurek and halondrus quite long

[tight kernel]

Yeah I don’t lust dimmy on heroic ez? Echo skill diffed

[vapid blaze]

ansurek was the most pulls i think

[buoyant cosmos]

Archimonde took over 400 too

[vapid blaze]

tindral was 300 smth for liquid/echo

[buoyant cosmos]

472

[tepid skiff]

399

i guess

[vapid blaze]

oh yeah

[tepid skiff]

i thought it was 402 tho

[vapid blaze]

nvm

[tepid skiff]

wait its gotta be jailer right? the chinese guild that had 1000 pulls or something?

or maybe that was cn guild on halondrus idk i cant remember but that was a meme

[craggy barn]

1000 pulls was on tindral wasnt it

[vapid blaze]

that was also on tindral

[fallen knot]

was tindral

[tepid skiff]

oh yeah

[fallen knot]

and halondrus probably

[tepid skiff]

yeah thats so fkin funny

theyre legends

[vapid blaze]

respawn timer=pull count

[craggy barn]

super funny

huge legends

[vivid vessel]

tbf tindral was a lot of very early p1 pulls

[vapid blaze]

wasnt that the cn guiild where the gm or smth quit during race

[proven ocean]

Overcucked

Thats why

Max even said fyrakk might’ve been even harder or same as tindral difficulty

[craggy barn]

when was it that a super chinese guild formed and then collapsed during covid lockdown

[proven ocean]

It was just omega overtuned

[craggy barn]

what tier was that

[proven ocean]

S3 DF

[vapid blaze]

that was the tindral tier

tbh irl fistfighting is what western teams need

[craggy barn]

legends

[proven ocean]

Its an easy liquid win tho imo

If they dont win it idk what to say honestly

Echo wont figure it out i think

Not enough time

[craggy barn]

yea no time for echo to make up 30%

[tight kernel]

Zeross. I think you’re right

Echo cooked

Or lose sleep and gg

[vivid vessel]

well if the boss require more prog

[craggy barn]

theyd have to have some god line to make up

[tight kernel]

Liquid pb

[vivid vessel]

echo will kill it tomrrow while liquid sleeps

[tight kernel]

And they got plenty of time left

[craggy barn]

yea if liquid doesnt get it today

its echo for sure

[proven ocean]

Ye

[craggy barn]

or method sneaks up somehow

[proven ocean]

Its rly close atm so ye

[proven ocean]

Nah they’re way worse

[craggy barn]

i know

would be funny af tho

[proven ocean]

Its not even close

They genuinely suck

Compared to those 2

[tight kernel]

Chinese guild about to lock in

They are in dimmy

GG

[craggy barn]

is there a twitch stream for theM?

[proven ocean]

They have their own streaming platform

[tepid skiff]

ya idk if i was a betting man id say the probability should be like more than 50% they dont kill it today. but if they kill it then they played insane

[craggy barn]

i know

[proven ocean]

But idk if they’re streaming their rwf

[craggy barn]

wondering if someone was restreamng on twitch

[tight kernel]

I think

Liquid wins

Echo sleeps

GG

Gl midnight

[proven ocean]

I wonder if this’ll end up being a sylvanas incident where its killable on tuesday because of the tight enrage timer

[craggy barn]

its for sure an extend angle on tuesday 😛

pepw

[tepid skiff]

if i had to bet money i think its opposite

[proven ocean]

[tepid skiff]

liquid gets it very low tonight, echo wakes up and kills it

[proven ocean]

Nobody extends rwf

[tepid skiff]

but

we'll see

[craggy barn]

i know bro

liquid pulls up extend on their titles again

[tight kernel]

Liquid is catching up to echo end of night %

[craggy barn]

bait the normies

[tight kernel]

Math not mathing

[tepid skiff]

ofc i hope liquid does the first b3b

[proven ocean]

Echo did it long ago tho

[tight kernel]

Echo has was like 2 hours left?

[tepid skiff]

ok that was when everyone was trash and it wasnt that competitive tho

feel like theres a lot more barriers to winning a b3b now with how hard everyone tries

[proven ocean]

I think the skill ceiling is way higher now due to everyone streaming

But ye its competitive now

[worldly shale]

how does dropamizer work for rings/necks?
does it use both sockets for the gem we choose?

[proven ocean]

Still doesn’t stop the fact that they were way better than good guilds

[tight kernel]

What time echo bed time

[proven ocean]

Uldir is a good example

[oblique trench]

!prekey

[ornate heath]

Pre-key fuckery

• RTB TWICE some time before entering dungeon to get 4 Supercharger stacks. These stacks don't have a duration.
• Just before key placement use AR into :ks: KS to get Loaded Dice and 2 free Unseen Blade procs.
• :ks: KS will consume one stack of Supercharger but the 3rd+4th stack are removed when the key starts anyway.
• During the bubble, DO NOT RTB or recast AR as you will lose the CPs and Supercharger stacks when the bubble ends.
• After the bubble drops use RTB again (now back at 4 stacks of Supercharger).
• Before entering the first pack BF into Stealth.
• Open onto the pack with AR into BtE.

[ember fractal]

guys as a trickster /kir build , i should keep 4 set bonus ( old) than 2 set bonus ( new ) ?

[gaunt phoenix]

yeah

[proven ocean]

We wont know which guild is truly better without global release

[buoyant cosmos]

this might be them, first one was a restream. https://www.douyu.com/topic/klsdcy_copy?rid=66095&dyshid=0-c7dec1c1831db909f9bc793e00081701

[proven ocean]

This raid being alot harder echo is pulling ahead each night

Where as liquid was almost always ahead on easier raids

Almost no time for echo to catch up

[ocean imp]

So what are you supposed to do if you SS during Subterfuge?

I assume you ignore the Unseen Blade optimization?

[gaunt phoenix]

yeah you ss in subt

[ocean imp]

You finish BtE'ing, and then you coup de grace at high combo points, build up combo points, and coup de grace again?

[proven ocean]

@vivid vessel told u both guilds have shit rogues

Idk why they dont get real rogues in their guilds

Its crazy how this class demands super high playtime to be good at it

Experience literally barely means anything

To pump numbers up

[gaunt phoenix]

you build cps with AR/opp/BF/GS but not ss

if you need to ss you rather just send coup at low cps

[buoyant cosmos]

Are they playing the same on day 9 as day 1 after playing for 15 hrs a day? Stamina is a part of it imo

if they are playing the same

[proven ocean]

They play as much as they’re awake

I think? Idk

They do have some time after they wake up if i recall correctly

So they dont insta send wow

[buoyant cosmos]

for sure

an hour to eat / stretch is important

[proven ocean]

Idk what they do with their timings tho

[proven ocean]

We used to play that much too

In m+

U get used to it but

[gaunt phoenix]

reworded a bit

[proven ocean]

It does get exhausting once u dont make good prog

[buoyant cosmos]

I think prog raiding is a bit more exhausting than pushing different keys

for me

since it's always the same

[proven ocean]

Depends on what keys ur doing

Highest keys we needed alot of planning lol

[buoyant cosmos]

yeah resili hell is hell

[proven ocean]

Not just start key and go to bed

[buoyant cosmos]

lel

[ocean imp]

Nah it was clear, I fumbled my words there but I understood that you're just supposed to skip using SS in order to build up your next Coup

Thanks

[proven ocean]

Especially when we have no voice

1st team on eu resil 20

Kinda big

[buoyant cosmos]

sweaty

[proven ocean]

Took us alot of effort

[craggy barn]

bro ashine is afk this fight wtf

[tight kernel]

EU server rip?

[buoyant cosmos]

For sure

[proven ocean]

We could’ve been r1 world but our tank stopped for few days

[buoyant cosmos]

you always push w/ zac?

[proven ocean]

No i was pushing with my own team

[buoyant cosmos]

gotcha

[proven ocean]

I played with zac for abit

Not much

[craggy barn]

ross was in the mdi even

[proven ocean]

Zac only pushed towards end of the season

[buoyant cosmos]

kinda makes sense with those extra upgrades in x.5

pushing up key levels again

[proven ocean]

Ngl tho

Imagine if echo had zaelia

They would’ve nuked dimensius last phase

I think a healer like him is very needed for such fights

He always did unimaginable things

Most healers aren’t as competitive as super good dpsers

Eu servers are down @vivid vessel

Gg to echo

They will 100% lose to this 💀

[vivid vessel]

im litteraly in game rn

[proven ocean]

Echo servers down

[jolly geyser]

hopefull ddos

[proven ocean]

Method too

[vivid vessel]

its their raid time off anyway

[proven ocean]

So ye

[vivid vessel]

22h

[proven ocean]

Not rly

They still have few more hrs

They game for 15 hrs sometimes

More maybe if theres a kill potential

Idj

Idk

[keen belfry]

my hope is that our apex talents are only good giving them 1 point, so we take 2fth, pc, and swiftflasher maybe?

and then we can take vigor too maybe

apex first pooint gives RTB S3 DF tier

[burnt dragon]

how good is wowanalyzer for outlaw? i know it's not updated for 11.2 yet

[keen belfry]

probs bad

[tight kernel]

I use soloanalyzer

[buoyant cosmos]

huge

[buoyant cosmos]

Do you have an idea of what you might be doing wrong?

Or just want to see what the clanker says

[burnt dragon]

just wanted to see

[keen belfry]

!commonerrors

[ornate heath]

Common errors for Outlaw -> see this answer in the FAQ.

[proven ocean]

Ngl none of that will fix outlaw

It needs a rework its way too fucked up rn

Literal worst spec design in the game

And its not even close

[timid idol]

like

all ts

gets fixed

if we remove every single instance of hard cap in the game

it really isnt rocket science

they can tune a % for bf past 8 targets however they want

surely there is a balanced number out there

[keen belfry]

i think if we fix how rtb works, let us take pc and 1fth and gs, we are fine

trickster stuff too

and fatebound

hehe

i think we arent supposed to function without last tier + 1fth atm

and that will be a point of rework

[timid idol]

whens midnight beta

approximatively

cause they're not doing anything besides slight number changes until then

[keen belfry]

how do u know

[proven ocean]

When most ppl killed dimensius

Like

[echo hill]

!gear

[ornate heath]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406175771495759952/outlaw.webp

[proven ocean]

After hall of fame by a month

Is closed

Or so

[random stirrup]

They doubled down in a recent interview

It’s not happening

They “like classes having different niches and being strong within those niches”

As a direct response to a question about target cap

[violet ferry]

“Bring the player, not the class”
Also
“We like classes having their own niches”

[buoyant cosmos]

I think that first point was more about raid than m+

[random stirrup]

Me when my mage niche is to have uncapped aoe and infinite defensives and infinite mobility and execute and funnel and

[exotic gale]

yeah uncap bladeflurry and its game over

[violet ferry]

Outlaw’s niche is… pirates I guess idk

[untold yarrow]

is Zac still a coward progging as sub?

[cinder relic]

I mean, Yes?

[cinder relic]

It's high skill so it's balanced

[real tulip]

how are we feeling about outlaw

can i come back yet

[cinder relic]

Depends who u ask

[craggy quiver]

Fine in m+

Fine for first three in mythic, no idea after third boss

[glass mortar]

other then the fact that im getting carried on most m+ bosses so far this season by people that im doing 2m+ more overall dps then

its weaker then s2, cant tell if its weaker then s1 yet till we have full gear

but its still outlaw so you will do turbo aoe overall in the regular key range most players play

lose to more people on the higher end

and ur boss damage is doodoo

so whats the situation in the wfr so far

have they determined a way to make up 35% boss hp or is it mathetmatically i m p o s s i b l e rn

[wintry solar]

Couldn't stop thinking about me?

Why would I say that?

[keen belfry]

because youre cooked

[lime lake]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-kitten-kittens-cute-cooking-gif-27578245

[keen belfry]

remember when popo named change and we all were like who tf is this new cooked takes guy

[wintry solar]

So you just assumed I'd say something?

Ping me if you're going to throw shade

[keen belfry]

no id rather let you search your own name in this discord

[wintry solar]

I was merely reading the paper

Do it, I thought it was funny.

[keen belfry]

what WA is doing this

or addon

anyone know

oh i found it

[desert tendon]

thinking about popo all day

[keen belfry]

cant get that face outta my head censi

how do i fix this

[desert tendon]

what face

[proven ocean]

Yours

[proven ocean]

True

[desert tendon]

ikr my face pretty solid

9/10

[proven ocean]

https://tenor.com/view/smiling-cat-happy-cat-smile-gif-3555983607747631247

[keen belfry]

stupid ahh cat

[proven ocean]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/316923750073499648/1406415261082320947/ZacFetchRavenholdt3.gif

[desert tendon]

accurate

[wintry solar]

Silksong comes out during my work week

It's so over

[proven ocean]

https://tenor.com/view/twenty-century-fox-meme-gfy-go-fuck-yourself-meme-get-lost-gif-26260205

@gaunt phoenix

Why is this gif so funny

[desert tendon]

yo

i m censigfy

[lime lake]

thats the bigwigs icon

so probably that

oh you found it already rip

i tried

[keen belfry]

ty bel

[desert tendon]

ty bel

[lime lake]

ty bel

[keen belfry]

chattynator giga addon

anyone us

chattnator

[vivid vessel]

when you dont press kir for a full min on pull @glass mortar

[glass mortar]

bro

ok it was half my pulls but also it only took us like 3 pulls to kill normal dimi for the first time

but i didnt even get to kir on the first platform

because on normal it lasts like 1:30s and i didnt proc cto one time

i love my spec

[vivid vessel]

on normal it last like 30s cuh

[glass mortar]

my when i leave p1 doing actual legit tank damage

not for us w1

we arent HoF noob

[compact mountain]

It's honestly impressive how hard they screwed outlaw and rogues in general, both on dimensius and on the whole list of boss rights this tier.

[bright crane]

Hey man

Honesty is the best policy

[somber patio]

me seeing hit box range while the boss "is the size of stormwind"

[rapid spoke]

Outlaw was always screwed since target caps

[glass mortar]

i mean dimi is a tactical nuke aimed at outlaw

this fight is just designed to fuck us over

what r u gunna do

worst law boss of the decade easily

[bright crane]

Write the MSFT shareholders

[glass mortar]

cant believe the shareholders would force blizzard to make an anti outlaw boss like this

im shaking rn

[lofty pike]

so they can rework us 😄

[bright crane]

Did you listen to the last earnings call?

[glass mortar]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-wiggle-crazy-cat-zoomies-gif-9877358298643393466

[bright crane]

They had a section about it

[regal star]

https://tenor.com/view/коты-cats-gif-25628741

[cinder relic]

Uh

U know rogue is like, extremely strong in raid rn right

[buoyant cosmos]

they aren't stacking rogues in rwf, must be garbage

[cinder relic]

Yeah don't look at the damage meters on forge, saladar or dimensius

Rogue is just so fucked over

[buoyant cosmos]

doom

[vapid blaze]

sub just good raid spec right

design wise

[midnight agate]

So, we love haste now? Sims are taking me over 20%

[vapid blaze]

same with assa kinda

[vivid vessel]

yes

[buoyant cosmos]

19 is the sweet spot for keep it rolling

[vivid vessel]

sub can be tuned as low as possible

if they continue making fights

with damage amps

and add burst

AND also 1min 30 timers

[vapid blaze]

yeah for that sub is crazy

[vivid vessel]

on every boss

well

[long barn]

!gear

[ornate heath]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406175771495759952/outlaw.webp

[vapid blaze]

yeah outlaw needs specific bosses
but sub/assa are just well designed specs

[fresh holly]

!bug

[ornate heath]

[Outlaw bug Thread](#1276315296159760467 message)

[buoyant cosmos]

Is danse good design

genuine question

[glossy pewter]

Guys are we pissing and shitting our pants cause of the Marcellan interview?

[glass mortar]

literally shaking rn frfr

[bright crane]

Nah I just do that on the reg

[wintry solar]

That's my caffeine addiction

It did force me to take out a loan for $20,000

[cinder relic]

I'm pogged up

[wintry solar]

And put it all on red

[cinder relic]

I hope it's good 👍

[wintry solar]

There's never been an unfun outlaw so I'm not worried in the slightest

[glass mortar]

say kap

im playing unfun outlaw rn

🥹

[buoyant cosmos]

combot points to rtb wasn't bad?

[wintry solar]

Don't play dimmy, then you'll have fun.

[wintry solar]

Not really.

It's not as good as it is now but finisher wasn't bad either

[buoyant cosmos]

I didn't play that part of bfa, so I only heard people gripe about it.

[cinder relic]

I liked cp rtb but it did have a feel bad element to it

U kinda had to get over the mental hurdle of "dispatch doesn't do that much damage so spamming rtb didn't really cost you that much damage"

Which most people couldn't really grasp

[buoyant cosmos]

it does sound frustrating

[glass mortar]

i think its good to avoid rotational buttons that do nothing but give buffs being pressed too frequently

[buoyant cosmos]

but 20 seconds of more damage vs one finisher makes sense

[glass mortar]

like spamming Rtb on cd as HO last season got to be a bit much even for me in keys

but it wasnt horrible

[frail veldt]

What

[wintry solar]

Dw. I put it all on red.

[frail veldt]

Did you win

[wintry solar]

It landed on black

[buoyant cosmos]

unluck

[wintry solar]

Another $20,000 should do the trick

[buoyant cosmos]

gl

[frail veldt]

You're only down if you give up

[buoyant cosmos]

my friends gambling between pulls be like

[vivid vessel]

HOLY FUCK I LOVE OUTLAW

[wintry solar]

Will you come midnight?

👀

[drowsy jacinth]

is there a timer WA for the free CDG use from the tier set? (I assume we want to build as much as possible before using it)

[glass mortar]

@vivid vessel u havin fun on prog blud