also idk if yall found out, but the subterfuge bug when using trinkets is gone
#outlaw
lone spear
gaunt phoenix
you can construct a dungeonroute that is essentially 8 target patchwerk but lets the vanish thing work correctly
lone spear
bout time man
lime lake
you had me until the be happy part
glass mortar
is it or r u using a stat trinket
quaint mauve
cudgel is the source of my sadness
lone spear
is it or r u using a stat trinket
nope its worked with magnet and bike now
think its just full fixed
violet ferry
“Fixed”?
In this economy??
lone spear
tbf they broke the KS animation
its like the pre-cone animation, but the damage is still cone
violet ferry
Oh ok good, I was worried that the small indie developer was acting like some AAA company for a second
glass mortar
i dont think it broke i thought it always did this on ptr if no targets were in range (or ur target dies and u have nothing in range)
just spam about in all directions aimlessly
it just doesnt do that if u have targets
lone spear
i see
glass mortar
almost everything i attack dies mid kspree so
glass mortar
im more offended by the fact that half my gunshots get cancelled so i can proc MG
and swing my sword
lone spear
ok and now it did
glass mortar
r u using an ability macrod to the trinket?
covert kestrel
POGGERS
lone spear
the stealths probably have seperate IDs
cause vanish stealth doesnt break from dam for 3sec
quaint mauve
also idk i couldnt do tazavesh
round spindle
Cudgel was updated?
quaint mauve
Cudgel was updated?
dont let ur sweet brain worry about that disgusting mace
live free without acknowledging it
be free
be liberated
round spindle
But I like feeling captive to suboptimal ilvl
agile quiver
what track is the cudgel?
glass mortar
veteran or w/e it maxes at 678
frank finch
adeventure maxes at 678
quaint mauve
am i absolutely tweaking or does this dude have nothing in his bars
is sin this unserious
lime lake
is he one button gaming
quaint mauve
or is he playing the one button thing
lime lake
because otherwise i dont see how thats working
teal garnet
am i absolutely tweaking or does this dude have nothing in his bars
looks like buffs / food
lime lake
lmao
teal garnet
stuff he clicks I think
lime lake
he cant be playing envenom the spec without envenom
heavy charm
Cudgel can drop from the bag on Veteran track up to 691 ilvl. 👀
gaunt phoenix
What bag
heavy charm
The event reward bag.
frank finch
WAT
torpid fiber
Uhhh
frank finch
the 3 daily quests
heavy charm
frank finch
random stirrup
torpid fiber
Kazzak all over again ig
heavy charm
Unfortunately it dropped for my friend on warrior and isn't tradeable 
gaunt phoenix
quaint mauve
Unfortunately it dropped for my friend on warrior and isn't tradeable <:garf:132...
fortunately*
heavy charm
Thats a weekly reward so... not quite as bad as a daily farm.
covert kestrel
https://tenor.com/view/jumanji-kevin-hart-i-hate-this-i-hate-this-game-jumanji-w...
Cudgel*
gaunt phoenix
good one
harsh mural
what quest unlocks the fast rashii wraps for alts?
i got it on one toon, went to get it on another thinking it would be skippable and it wasnt
so i assume i didnt go far enough on main?
royal ermine
can't get the alt skip this week
worthy elm
i did it
royal ermine
takes about an hourish though to rush it on an alt if the servers arent eating shit though
worthy elm
there is 100% an alt skip
covert kestrel
there is 100% an alt skip
Straight to reshii wraps?
glass mortar
think its bugged
ive had a few guildies and friends who couldnt alt skip
and many people saying its easy just do this
worthy elm
yea, i did it all on my shaman and then alt skipped my rogue immediately
glass mortar
but the option doesnt even exist for them
glass mortar
yes they have done literally everything
royal ermine
would love to know your magical secret then because you can't finish the upgrade the cloak quest and it just says wait 7 days for allies to progress the campaign
glass mortar
every quest in the zone
hollow coyote
so is HO dead?
glass mortar
not until tier sets and such
olive marten
would love to know your magical secret then because you can't finish the upgrade...
What level is the cloak? Should be able to get 707
sharp hinge
anyone have issues logging in
olive marten
But the game is also turbo bugged right now so I wouldn’t be surprised if things are scuffed
sharp hinge
it wont even let me load in lol
glass mortar
got stuck every ~10 minutes to a quest item not going into my inventory (even tho it said i looted it and it despawned from the world) and to npcs just not having the option to continue
sharp hinge
i finished everything but was trying to do some M0
glass mortar
was funny
olive marten
Looks like a “come back tomorrow” angle lol
royal ermine
What level is the cloak? Should be able to get 707
701 I have nothing left to do or any possible way to upgrade the cloak
lime lake
you get the threads from delves
royal ermine
I did the exact same quests on an alt and it instantly gave me a 707 cloak
lime lake
go little moleman
olive marten
You get more threads from delves
gaunt phoenix
so is HO dead?
not right now, but after tier, it is abit behind
random stirrup
would love to know your magical secret then because you can't finish the upgrade...
if you have an addon like talent tree tweaks, it will auto upgrade the cloak for you so you cannot do it yourself. log on to an alt and do the campaign again with the addon turned off
and then you get the skipo
glass mortar
oh yea its fukt if u have an addon that auto upgrades
random stirrup
its locked behind that quest
olive marten
That’s wild
glass mortar
it will upgrade it but not count for the quest and u need to do it on an alt or wait for blizz to fix
lime lake
random stirrup
because the quest is warbound though as long as you do it on an alt it fixes your main
snow viper
i like how killing spree fires in a circle but is now cone damage, these devs would barely qualify as interns at jiffy lube
sharp hinge
did we expect anything less from blizz, wonder what made them release it earlier than expected
olive marten
Too busy working on housing to give us patches that function I guess
glass mortar
i like how killing spree fires in a circle but is now cone damage, these devs wo...
its cause of the range
lime lake
lets not pretend that literally every patch in history hasnt been equally broken
glass mortar
if u ever have no targets in its range it will fire randomly in all directions (when the animation is doing this its not hitting anything btw)
olive marten
lets not pretend that literally every patch in history hasnt been equally broken
It hasnt though tbh
glass mortar
you might just not notice because its range is rather short and u can move during it
olive marten
They’ve been pretty solid lately
lime lake
olive marten
Some lag at most
fervent stump
Been awhile since I’ve played, are we still jumping through hoola hoops to do mid damage?
Cause that new write up looks like cirque de sol
snow viper
you might just not notice because its range is rather short and u can move durin...
feels like ass, am sad 🙁
glass mortar
yes
the animation is lacking and buggy and cringe and the increase duration is even lamer
but u dont die anymore
it is what it is
bright crane
low key
glass mortar
enjoy another season of this until they actually give us kspree rework in 12.0
glass mortar
its wild to me they didnt attempt to improve that at all
snow viper
old ks was at least fun to use once yoiu accepted the inevitable stagger death
glass mortar
who tf wants to see their pistol animation get cancelled mid shot to slash a sword
if it was fluid and not animation cancely maybe it would look ok
it just looks like its broken tho
bright crane
legit definition of careful what you ask for
glass mortar
thats just outlaw i guess
and also with how easy it is to outrange it it looks very silly that u just immediatly start firing in a full circle when u step 2 yards away from the mob
bright crane
it should just target..
glass mortar
🙂
snow viper
the range is actually criminal
glass mortar
yes
yes to all these things
everything about this ability is still shit
kinda wild huh
BUT
it doesnt kill you
so dont complain gg
gaunt phoenix
yeah now that ive been playing
bright crane
its like they took problem A
glass mortar
at least u also need to play it as fatebound now
bright crane
and turned into problem B
gaunt phoenix
the range should be like a gun spell
gaunt phoenix
that would be kinda fun
glass mortar
random damage very silly
animation breaking very silly
if they fixed these things
maybe a serious ability yea
hollow coyote
the animation should have been reaper ult from overwatch
gaunt phoenix
well then you still would miss flurry damage if out of range
hollow coyote
huge missed opportunity
bright crane
ol just cant catch a break
snow viper
there's also no range circle, so feels like fking guessing
glass mortar
u dont need one its literal melee range
its not like old kspree that actually had a 3 yard longer range then melee
it is just a melee range ability
with ur guns
bright crane
hopefully realz is reading this and puts this in an epic to look into in 2027
formal yarrow
glass mortar
im sure they just ran out of time 
formal yarrow
ppl its just me?
glass mortar
the 12.0 kspree glowup is going to be outstanding
sudden fulcrum
ppl its just me?
nah servers are shitting the bed
bright crane
sudden fulcrum
i just closed the game because nothing is even responding
gaunt phoenix
i feel like you guys think realz has infinite control to work on rogue like it's a hobby project
shell fossil
ye the animation isn't great
shell fossil
i kinda like it but gonna miss old ks
glass mortar
imagine if
bright crane
implying hell be doing other things until then
glass mortar
u didnt cancel half ur shots with melee swings
at least give me a glyph
thats all i ask
i think if the animation didnt cancel so many shots and wasnt melee range it would look fine
shell fossil
i'd like if it had a cloak of shadows visual effect on it
snow viper
glyph for melee, glyph for guns, part of the problem solved
shell fossil
its just a dude going blat for a few seconds rn
bright crane
servers are working again btw
peak dock
Is this a typo? Or is it possible to get nightfall cudgel at ilvl 678?
glass mortar
wait really
gaunt phoenix
yep
peak dock
it is, and also possible at 691 apparently
O:
glass mortar
oh god a 691 cudgel is definitly bis in aoe isnt it
this is deeply cursed knowledge
torpid fiber
Weekly bag untradeable bis
gaunt phoenix
uh, it may have a slightly lower target limit
glass mortar
well the target limit of the old oh was like... 3?
ish
do u think its higher this time
glass mortar
isnt a 691 piece basically champion ilvl tho?
glass mortar
old weapons were 684 vs 658 and new is 723 vs 691 hmm
more of a gap i guess
plus exponential scaling and yada yada
hopefully its still not bis but thats scary ngl
gaunt phoenix
we did lose offhand weapon value tho
gaunt phoenix
With ks change
glass mortar
i thought u meant cantrips
gaunt phoenix
that too i suppose
glass mortar
well now ur arguing for the weapon solo
gaunt phoenix
i know
glass mortar
anyway bedge now gl with the servers EU people
random stirrup
the sims wont matter when zac shows up week 4 with it equipped
glass mortar
i beg of u, never reveal the sims of 691 cudgel
unless i get it in my box tomorrow when i do the event
then u can reveal the sims
💅
gaunt phoenix
im gonna get it in 3 min
pliant wind
new cudgel 6 ilvl more far ahead than s2
but we had mugzee weapon on offhand
maybe 691 cudgel is the new perma OH this s3
wintry gate
anyone else feel like the new KS just feels like this:
i guess they were paying attention during pistolgate
sudden fulcrum
has anyone verified that blizz didn't fix the vanish bug that makes cudgel good?
errant field
!fuu
ornate heathBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
random stirrup
new cudgel 6 ilvl more far ahead than s2
because of turbo boost ya
its probably coming back though
torpid fiber
has anyone verified that blizz didn't fix the vanish bug that makes cudgel good?
not a bug afaik but worth checking
sudden fulcrum
would be an interesting design decision if it's not a bug i guess
torpid fiber
Using vanish on trash mobs drops combat (not a bug) and the mace proc resets when you drop combat with a mob (Also not a bug)
willow portal
Is there any reason to actually get darkmoonbuff? We wont reach level 18 in the first week anyway right?
violet lance
can we get the cudgel this week? 😮
blissful osprey
alright killing spree is way too fun now
warm remnant
btw do u play ks with old tier in fatebound now or
gaunt phoenix
Ya
blissful osprey
sad that KiR is a good bit better than HO now, KiR feels awkward to me
royal ermine
whats the max ilvl of the cloak supposed to be this week? 707?
tight kernel
starting strong
royal ermine
pretty sure I broke the game
somebody said something about an addon breaking the cloak
because my rogues was 701, I did the entire chain on my priest alt and it gave me a 707 cloak, I went back on my rogue and did 3 delves to upgrade my rogues cloak to 707, my priest now has a 714 ilvl cloak
torpid fiber
solo do you have builds for no s2 or s3 tier
gaunt phoenix
Technically the new builds don't require new tier to function but rather need new tier to be better than old tier
tender breach
@gaunt phoenix if u dont mind can u explain " Trickster will still prioritize Sinister Strike when Unseen Blade is guaranteed." cause I dont get it
mild vigil
UB procs x2 are guaranteed after KS
so here's a hypothetical to help you understand. You are at 2/4 stacks, you press KS, cancel the channel with BtE and it doesn't refund CP. What should your next button press be considering that you are guaranteed two UB procs
not taking into account new tier
bright crane
do threads only drop from delves?
frail veldt
<@921608341048930304> if u dont mind can u explain " Trickster will still priori...
when you have a guaranteed UB proc(i.e. after pressing KS) SS is your highest prio builder
so if you need to generate combo points
you press SS over all else
well SS/Ambush but theyre effectively interchangeable
that means that even if you have bladeflurry ready(if running deft), pistol shot procs, adrenaline rush for cps, you still press SS to build combo points and consume those free UB procs
tender breach
oh! so after KS the SS/Ambush... thnxz
frail veldt
yeah p much after you press KS then make sure youre using SS/Ambush for your builders
2/3 times depending on if you have a natural UB charge from the timer ready
tender breach
@frail veldt that means: while I have the unseen blade buff icon on the target I press only ss/ambush?
frail veldt
well if youre at your finish condition youd use a finisher
pure folio
can we get the cudgel this week? 😮
Yes
frail veldt
but as your builders yes only ss/ambush while you have UB stacks to deplete
potent yacht
is that even good over a 684 offhand?
frail veldt
until Midnight
lolol no shot
frail veldt
is that even good over a 684 offhand?
yes
pure folio
is that even good over a 684 offhand?
100%
tender breach
So I can make a WA that tracks the Unseen blade debuff on target and in that window I build only with SS/ ambush and finish normaly
frail veldt
cudgel isnt beaten in m+ for like 15 or 20 ilvls
potent yacht
where do u farm it
frail veldt
So I can make a WA that tracks the Unseen blade debuff on target and in that win...
no not the UB debuff
frail veldt
the UB stack
youre confusing fazed and UB
fazed is the debuff
UB is the proc that allows your SS to trigger an escalating blade stack and hit twice
potent yacht
sorry what is nightfall again
frail veldt
tender breach
the UB is on me?
frail veldt
!wa
ornate heathBOT
Class packs:
Guy's - Afenar's Edit 
Luxthos Edit
Zac's Group 
Devlin
Utilities:
Combo Point Standalone
Last GCD in Crackshot window / Subterfuge timer
Ace refund sound trigger
RtB buffs tracker (shows normal, CTO, and KIR'd buffs)
Unseen Blade tracker
Fun:
Ace max combo counter and Ace current combo counter
KS Ticking damage taken
frail veldt
theres a UB tracker wa and one within zac's group(I recommend zacs)
potent yacht
i skip all lore dont pay attention lol
tender breach
got it
pure folio
The hourly event in Hallowfall @potent yacht
potent yacht
The hourly event in Hallowfall <@728295727947579452>
ah ty cade
pure folio
np
frail veldt
except dont consume coup de grace on a target without fazed
cuz you wont get the benefits of coup if you do that
But UB isnt actually a trackable buff in blizzard UI @tender breach
you need clever was to track it which is provided above
potent yacht
The hourly event in Hallowfall <@728295727947579452>
does that thing proc every tab target ss u do or is it just the 1st hit
frail veldt
does that thing proc every tab target ss u do or is it just the 1st hit
it procs on everything bladeflurry hits
torpid fiber
does that thing proc every tab target ss u do or is it just the 1st hit
bf procs it
big thing is that vanish on M+ packs resets it
frail veldt
for the first time in each combat scenario
quaint tiger
i thought it's all fatebound in 11.2
potent yacht
holy
frail veldt
but why tis bad on bosses
cuz it doesnt reset on bosses
so you have to swap it off for bosses
pure folio
Bladeflurry procs it everytime automatically, it resets on ur vanish/shadowmeld @potent yacht i
It does not work on bosses though, youre better off using a higher ilvl offhand
frail veldt
its outlaws only form of uncapped aoe lol
ornate heathBOT
You can swap most weapons in keys. Outlaw swaps between the Nightfall event weapon for trash and a better offhand for bosses, such as Capo (change the name):
/equipslot 17 Nightfall Curseblade's Cudgel
/equipslot 17 Capo's Molten Knuckles```
If your offhand is the same name as your mainhand or you have two of them in your bags, then the above macro won't work, you have to swap by bag slot:
```#showtooltip 17
/equipslot 17 Nightfall Curseblade's Cudgel
/equipslot 17 <bag #> <bag slot #>```
Note that **Gallywix's Iron Thumb** cannot be swapped in keys.im noticing my killing spree not doing a lot of damage, but is it at least proccing blade flurry a good bit?
frail veldt
and you can swap them in combat
potent yacht
oh wow
frail veldt
im noticing my killing spree not doing a lot of damage, but is it at least procc...
in what way does it feel like its not doing a lot of damage
KS should be stronger by a good margin after the patch
but yes it also does proc BF
KS is a ST ability still despite its appearance
blissful osprey
i feel like its chunking when i use it but when i look at my overall its not really pumping
ahhh fair enough
frail veldt
KS will not make you pump in overall
KS is one small factor in a large system of outlaws dps
so pressing it isnt gona spike your dps or anything
quaint mauve
KS is a ST ability still despite its appearance
i find this so odd
torpid fiber
it's specifically so it flurries but yeah idk
feel like they could have made it uncapped probably
quaint mauve
like ur literally spinning around shooting
blissful osprey
it feels really nice but i definitely think it should be an aoe ability, i guess its hard to give outlaw more aoe
frail veldt
1000%
frail veldt
it feels really nice but i definitely think it should be an aoe ability, i guess...
outlaw has very little aoe compared to other specs lol
torpid fiber
blade rush is uncapped they can make ks uncapped as a treat
mild vigil
it feels really nice but i definitely think it should be an aoe ability, i guess...
gotta be careful or outlaw might be good
quaint mauve
outlaw has very little aoe compared to other specs lol
and the ST doesn’t even make up for it
blissful osprey
isnt outlaw quite good right now?
frail veldt
no
torpid fiber
ignore all outlaw data for the next 2 weeks
frail veldt
at best its middle of the pack
frail veldt
at worst you lose to tank on a st boss in m+
blissful osprey
im just mogging everyone i get in a group with but skill issue i guess
mild vigil
we do too well on first four bosses
torpid fiber
outlaw is good in low content
frail veldt
and does instant damage
blissful osprey
what do you guys consider low? cause what i consider low is like, 7s and below
torpid fiber
also ppl aren't pulling 200 mobs in low content
quaint mauve
what do you guys consider low? cause what i consider low is like, 7s and below
12ish and below
frail veldt
what do you guys consider low? cause what i consider low is like, 7s and below
going by last season 15 or lower
torpid fiber
the thing with outlaw is that it's good for 90%+ of the playerbase bc but it's bad for the top 1% people think it sucks for them and you don't get invites
frail veldt
below 15s, mobs die to fast for a lot of "meta" specs to perform at their full capacity
outlaw only gets worse compared to those specs the longer mobs live
blissful osprey
yeah thats crazy because most people wont ever touch a 15 lol
quaint mauve
i wouldn’t say 15 is low
frail veldt
it has to be fucking broken in 15 and below
potent yacht
Bladeflurry procs it everytime automatically, it resets on ur vanish/shadowmeld ...
is this axe old content or can it still be upgraded
frail veldt
i wouldn’t say 15 is low
I mean its all relative but peak keys were like 23s last season
pure folio
It can be upgraded only to 678
blissful osprey
it has to be fucking broken in 15 and below
yeah reminds me of MM hunter in dragonflight, i'd do relatively low keys with friends and just 1 shot all the mobs and they thought it was the best spec by far
frail veldt
yeah thats how outlaw feels
quaint mauve
i see high as 18+
blissful osprey
i would imagine the game should be balanced around 10s
frail veldt
cuz you get so many restealths so quick youre always in subterfuge
blissful osprey
everything after is extra
frail veldt
i would imagine the game should be balanced around 10s
I mean
arguably balance doesnt matter in 10s
you can play any spec
and clear those keys
unfortunately even people who are doing 10s follow the meta of +20s
quaint mauve
if the game isn’t balanced around high keys it kinda just is pointless
frail veldt
so theres a huge trickle down impact of the high end meta
torpid fiber
yeah mewo is right here, in a pve game you gotta balance around the content that matters
quaint mauve
bc balance doesn’t matter in low keys
torpid fiber
pvp games are a bit different
frail veldt
im not necessarily saying balance around the top 10 key teams
blissful osprey
well it depends on what you mean by matters, a lot of people just dont see a reasn to go past 10
torpid fiber
bc if your champ is bad in low elo and ur in bronze it actually really matters bc the other team is playing champs that are better than u in bronze
but that isn't true in pve
frail veldt
but like balancing around keystone title is good
frail veldt
well it depends on what you mean by matters, a lot of people just dont see a rea...
I think the things that influence those players enjoyment isnt balance though
cuz like you just said
torpid fiber
title is top 0.1%
frail veldt
outlaw feels great to you
but outlaw is weak
so obviously outlaws balance isnt relevant at your key level
potent yacht
It can be upgraded only to 678
do u know if i had to stagger dps after vanish cause if u pop out instantly it doesnt drop threat sometimes
frail veldt
a lot of specs also just dont function when things die to fast
so you cant balance around mobs dying in less than 10 seconids
pure folio
U can do it instantly
blissful osprey
the way im looking at it is something like fire mage while being grouped with me or an mm hunter or something would just have so much less fun, its hard to balance for all specs at all key levels for sure
frail veldt
cuz that severely overly favors certain spec playstyles
if you balanced outlaw around 10s it would literally do half the damage of other specs at +18
it would be completely dead spec
outlaws kit just heavily overperforms in low content
blissful osprey
so you think it should be buffed and just kinda ignore how op it is in lower keys? not being argumentative just wondering
frail veldt
so you think it should be buffed and just kinda ignore how op it is in lower key...
me personally I think its current state is a hard thing to balance for that exact reason
blissful osprey
yeah for sure
frail veldt
I think the spec fundamentally needs some mechanics that increase in value at high keys
torpid fiber
the better long-term solution is to make it not as insanely low-key skewed
frail veldt
just the addition of ONE long cd that does uncapped aoe damage would go a long way for outlaw
blissful osprey
what do you think a good change to work towards that would be?
frail veldt
but there ar emany players who are against that from a class fantasy perspective
blissful osprey
yeah i was thinking that too, fair
torpid fiber
which means probably give us true aoe, because the other options is to make us more CD focused (bad) or ramp hard (also bad)
frail veldt
I think outlaw being capped can function in high levels of content
blissful osprey
but there ar emany players who are against that from a class fantasy perspective
also becuase thats kinda just how every spec feels right now it seems, outlaw does feel very unique in that regard
frail veldt
but it requires a lot of hands on work to make sure precise cuts is balanced very well
potent yacht
is there a point doing 11 delves. does it still drop the elite crests?
frail veldt
also becuase thats kinda just how every spec feels right now it seems, outlaw do...
yeah outlaw is literally the only hard capped spec in the game
random obsidian
me personally I think its current state is a hard thing to balance for that exac...
is it tho? even if outlaw was doing twice the damage of other specs in 10s, if it doesnt see much play in the highest keys it still wouldnt be played in 10s
blissful osprey
yeah outlaw is literally the only hard capped spec in the game
fair point
frail veldt
eveyr other spec has at least one button that has uncapped aoe scaling(well softcapped but still)
quaint mauve
just the addition of ONE long cd that does uncapped aoe damage would go a long w...
they were so close to doing this with KS
torpid fiber
tbf technically outlaw has blade rush that button just does negative damage
frail veldt
is it tho? even if outlaw was doing twice the damage of other specs in 10s, if i...
yeah but you dont want that to be the case
blissful osprey
killing spree definitely does feel like it could fill that niche
frail veldt
having a spec do double the damage of other specs in 10s is not great
that doesnt feel good to a lot of players
and the fact is there are way more players doing 10s than high keys
so
random obsidian
but it's irrelevant bc they'll rarely ever play with an outlaw
blissful osprey
is it tho? even if outlaw was doing twice the damage of other specs in 10s, if i...
i think itd be played tbf
frail veldt
but it's irrelevant bc they'll rarely ever play with an outlaw
I dont really feel like thats the case though
even when outlwas bad some people play it
theres non fotm players in 10s
blissful osprey
outlaw is also an underplayed spec as far as i can tell
frail veldt
people do play what they think is fun
its not most players but its some players
Like I still run into survival hunters
blissful osprey
i feel like most rogues i run into are definitely not outlaw
random obsidian
well i've farmed like 100 10-12s these last 3 weeks and i dont think ive seen more than 5 rogues tag my keys, tops
torpid fiber
well i've farmed like 100 10-12s these last 3 weeks and i dont think ive seen mo...
what spec have you been playing?
blissful osprey
outlaw feels like that meme of the dude spamming his keyboard while the other guy is singing
random obsidian
I know, but I doubt that would change if outlaw was doing twice the damage other specs do in 10s
frail veldt
rogue being unpopular is not the result of one thing but many many things over many years that have decreased the specs popularity
random obsidian
If it isnt perceived as meta, or close to meta, in the high end keys, it just wont see much play in the lower keys
blissful osprey
i personally kinda fell off of rogue after the legion changes, which were forever ago at this point but yeah
frail veldt
lacking strong identity/fantasy, having overly esoteric rotations/WAs/mechanics, not having highly desired raid buffs, etc
poor visuals/flash that attract players
random obsidian
what spec have you been playing?
ww and outlaw
frail veldt
even when outlaw is in meta
torpid fiber
ww and outlaw
yeah that'd be why lmao
frail veldt
its not popular
blissful osprey
poor visuals/flash that attract players
yeah thats fair, a lot of people like flashy
random obsidian
you could argue they don't tag in keys where there's a rogue already
torpid fiber
ww also doesn't have lust/brez afaik
random obsidian
but 10s-12s are more than free atm
frail veldt
a lot of people have that box checked yes
ww has also the most useless raid buff
other than otulaw lol
or dk
torpid fiber
issue is basically that ppl build groups in those key levels around "can we have lust brez and at least one ranged"
frail veldt
okaymaybe theres some other uselessones like warlock or hunter
torpid fiber
like that's all they care about
blissful osprey
yeah having a lust or brez feels just so important now
random obsidian
maybe they do but that's kinda dumb lol
frail veldt
but ww isnt highly desired for mystic touch
torpid fiber
and like
dispels help as well so monk is less fucked than warr/rogue/dh
but still fucked
frail veldt
fair
torpid fiber
real talk they should rebuff drums
random obsidian
i mean, we're talking about 10s-12s 2-3 weeks before next tier
frail veldt
but yeah ww also has a shit damage profile like outlaw
random obsidian
the comp doesnt really matter at this point
quaint mauve
but ww isnt highly desired for mystic touch
why would it be when brew is basically a 4th dps
blissful osprey
having a brez can easily mean the difference between a timed key or not
frail veldt
why would it be when brew is basically a 4th dps
brews dps has nothing to do with mystic touch
torpid fiber
drums should be like 27.5% or something crazy close
technically a dps loss but not really
even 25% should be the bare minimum how are they fucking 15%
torpid fiber
the comp doesnt really matter at this point
it doesn't matter
ppl still build for that
random obsidian
yeah i get what you mean
quaint mauve
brews dps has nothing to do with mystic touch
yeah but why would u take a ww for mystic touch when u can have brew for mystic touch
blissful osprey
i get why they dont want to just add either a lust or a battle rez to every class though, thats boring, but its hard to get other buffs that are comparable
random obsidian
but then dont we come back to the point that outlaw being op in 10s doesnt matter either?
quaint mauve
is what i meant
frail veldt
yeah but why would u take a ww for mystic touch when u can have brew for mystic ...
sure im just saying you dont bring either for their buff haha
when brew doesnt do good damage you dont bring it for its buff
monk has to be very strong to be brought
random obsidian
since people will jus try to mimick what they see at the higher key levels
blissful osprey
what could they add to rogue that wouldnt just be lust or brez that would make it brought
aside from just absurdly op buff ofc
random obsidian
a raid buff that buffs damage
random stirrup
not having a shit raid buff would help a lot
random obsidian
and can fit in most comps
frail veldt
I mean you could buff atrophic
random stirrup
and removing 87 truesight mobs from every dungeon
since they are filled with them now
blissful osprey
should they just buff atrophic?
blissful osprey
since they are filled with them now
yeah that shit is annoying
frail veldt
but it would for sure for raid
blissful osprey
5% dr just sounds so insane though
frail veldt
if rogue could spec into aoe cloak of shadows that would probably be pog
random stirrup
even if atrophic was buffed you would still drop rogue if incoming damage wasn't a problem or if it was environmental damage boss (like stix)
random obsidian
tbf I just want better group utility, once I've used my blind I feel close to useless in some packs
random stirrup
atrophic just needs to amp damage takent oo
blissful osprey
outlaw does have a fat kidney shot
random obsidian
I don't think it's fair
frail veldt
lol
blissful osprey
yeah cause you could say "if x classes stun was aoe theyd be better" which yeah lol
random obsidian
Most classes and specs benefited from the powercreep
and we're kind of left behind
frail veldt
I think they should prune aoe stops
and go back to where stops actually put spells on cd
random obsidian
Sure that would work too
random stirrup
atrophic increasing damage taken from all sources by 3% would make sense and still put it on the lower end of raid buff powerlevels
frail veldt
this current version of m+ sucks ass
I fucking hate it
so much
0/10
DF was so so so much better
random stirrup
or at least midrange (worse than motw as a direct comparison)
blissful osprey
its a really tough situation to balance since theres so many classes and different specs and if one thing doesnt have something evreyone else has its considered useless
frail veldt
they should have just nerfed DH
isntead of nerfing EVERYONES stops
by making them not put spells oncd
it was such a weird decision
esp cuz in SL they had it like this
and they specifically changed it
and people LOVED df for that system
and they just went back on it
its like
???
hasty fable
I just got back from watching Twitch for the pet on a rogue stream... the comments are troubling to say the least... So much misunderstanding and advice from 5 years ago.... yikers
frail veldt
so fucking lost
frail veldt
I just got back from watching Twitch for the pet on a rogue stream... the commen...
whos stream
random obsidian
I don't agree they should remove pack control from VDH
frail veldt
thats what Im saying lol
random obsidian
it had most of it forever and it wasnt an issue before DF rework and illuminated sigil
oh my bad then
blissful osprey
if vdh is survivable at all it feels like theres no reason to play anything else in m+
random obsidian
Yeah
frail veldt
still op as fuck
thats the thing
they did all this cahnge
and it made VDH even MORE desirable
lol
like
random obsidian
But like half of the other tanks have close to no utility for no reason
frail veldt
okay maybe not more but it sure as shit didnt make them less
quaint mauve
they have what 3 aoe stops and an aoe silence
frail veldt
But like half of the other tanks have close to no utility for no reason
yeah guardian has typhoon
like
wat
torpid fiber
I mean you could buff atrophic
if they were specifically trying to buff for M+ they could buff mind-numbing right?
frail veldt
if they were specifically trying to buff for M+ they could buff mind-numbing rig...
eeeeh yeah maybe but itd have to be really strong
frail veldt
they have incap roar too
true lol
torpid fiber
yeah
frail veldt
you pick between bash and incap I think
torpid fiber
but like i think that's the angle probs if they wanted to go that way
frail veldt
but still
man I would love if they made it so that stops put spells on cd
was such a satisfying system
and just reduce the number of aoe stops
ALSO
3 drs
blissful osprey
and the suck in which can be useful, but vdh just seems to have something for every single situation
frail veldt
is too much
torpid fiber
is rogue the only class that has to spend a talent point to upgrade its raid buff btw
frail veldt
diminishing returns*
stuff should be full dr after 2
that would help a lot
for infinite ccing packs
torpid fiber
is rogue the only class that has to spend a talent point to upgrade its raid buf...
dk probably do nvm
random obsidian
and the suck in which can be useful, but vdh just seems to have something for ev...
I believe thats recency bias tbf
random obsidian
Every season ppal is meta, everyone says they'll forever be meta for example
torpid fiber
i meant grip bc that's what the devs claim
blissful osprey
i think ppal is the only thing comparable to vdh in utility
frail veldt
ppal yeah is the only thing close
random obsidian
It's mostly because half the tanks barely get any attention from the devs
frail veldt
they have an aoe silence + kick
blissful osprey
like look at monk its actually such a joke lol
blissful osprey
like if monks arent going to have the utility or healing at least make them fucking brick walls
frail veldt
but you don't bring a tank purely based on utility
you do if dying isnt an issue
random obsidian
M+ has changed a lot since then, but BDK ShL s3 and s4 was just an immortal truck
blissful osprey
didnt bdk in shl do immense damage
frail veldt
you bring the one wwith most utility
you dont bring the tankiest of the 3
tankiness is a minimum requirement
random obsidian
didnt bdk in shl do immense damage
it did yeah
blissful osprey
yeah so it was immortal + insane damage, and decent utility i'd say
frail veldt
so you want the tank with the most utility that meets the tankiness requirement
utility is always bis
dps is like 3rd after those two tbh
depending on the season
dungeon design impacts this a lot
blissful osprey
tankiness and damage is just numbers you can tune, utility is a lot harder becuaes you have to actually add/remove shit from a class
frail veldt
tankiness and damage is just numbers you can tune, utility is a lot harder becua...
or just nerf cds/durations
I really dont think its that hard
blissful osprey
that too i guess
random obsidian
having more utility is though however
yeah but isnt that a consequence of the tanks being better balanced in terms of damage/survivability compared to previous expansions?
there'll always be something that puts one of them ahead of the others
blissful osprey
i mean like, monk for instance would need a miracle to do half of what vdh can do. and then it doesnt really do damage either, and its the squishiest tank
frail veldt
yeah but isnt that a consequence of the tanks being better balanced in terms of ...
no its a result of the dungeon design incentivizing stops/utilyt over tankiness/damage
if timing a dungeon came down to killing fast enough and the only way you could kill faster was by pulling more, then you have to look at what limits you pulling more, is it tankiness or is it utility/stops
and unfortunately most current dungeon ddesign, big pulls are enabled by more utility
not by more tankiness
utility is almost always the limiting factor for large pulls
random obsidian
what about s1 TWW then
frail veldt
and damage cuz if you kill fast enough you dont need to cc them anymore
blissful osprey
playing a monk is like im fighting for my life to not make a single mistake so i dont get instakilled while playing vdh you're just hopping from pack to pack kiting, silencing, sucking everything in, stunning everything, incapping everything and having immortal self healing
potent yacht
is rank 3 max for cloak this week?
random obsidian
like Grim Batol for example
frail veldt
was the most meta tank the tankiest tank?
blissful osprey
s1 was ppal wasnt it?
random obsidian
I'd say it was, but you had to play well
random stirrup
no but ppal did enable better pulls & kept your enh alive
frail veldt
the tank is VERY rarely the limiting factor for who dies first
its almost always the group dies cuz of stops
blissful osprey
the tankiest tank a lot of the time can be like, warrior or druid depending on the dungeon
druid is just immortal against high phys
frail veldt
and the tank stands there like "welp sorry"
its VERY rare that theres a season where the tank dying is the limiting factor
I actually cant remember that being the case
in the last 3 expansions
maybe in SL some seasons
cuz there werent as many mobs casting
random obsidian
it was in TWW s1
frail veldt
but all of DF and all of TWW so far has been group surviving is the limiting factor
frail veldt
it was in TWW s1
I didnt feel like this was the case
random obsidian
that was a season with a lot of tanks who stopped tanking
purely because tanking was rough
I played tank this season and it was much much more sweaty than TWW s2
blissful osprey
i think theyve dug themselves a hole with tanks in a way becuase like, 90% of the tanks just keep themselves up with self healing, so you may as well just make the 100% or start actually making the tanks different as far as survivability goes
blissful osprey
when you give a tank 80% of a dps damage you make it so a lot of the time tank stacking can be really strong
remember mop
random obsidian
when you give a tank 80% of a dps damage you make it so a lot of the time tank s...
it's a non issue, just tie their damage to actual damage intake
not tanking = no damage
blissful osprey
fair, but even then its also just kinda silly. what is it at now? like, 40%?
random obsidian
more or less 50% yeah
blissful osprey
id say 60% would be okay but i mean, when im playing a tank im not interested in damage. i want to be a brick wall and support the team
random obsidian
I tanked the last 5 seasons and it's just so boring doing homework keys
You don't die you don't deal damage you just press buttons to help your dps have fun
blissful osprey
idk theres been quite a few times where tanks pump
idk how it is now but prot warrior in s2 was doing crazy damage
dawn talon
the problem with tanking is that it is the lowest variance role
random obsidian
Not in TWW, pal s1 was kinda pumping but it was an accident more than anything
dawn talon
you can have dps be relatively highrolly and nothing bad happens
blissful osprey
but again, thats not really the point of being a tank. maybe they need to make it more active or something idk, i dont think just giving them a ton of damage is the answer though
dawn talon
but if your tank can lowroll the game is dogshit
random obsidian
but again, thats not really the point of being a tank. maybe they need to make i...
Making the role fun is what it should be about, and doing damage is always fun
blissful osprey
Not in TWW, pal s1 was kinda pumping but it was an accident more than anything
last season collosus prot warrior had to be nerfed it was doing such insane damage, it wasnt even the "meta" tank but it was absolutely pumping
dawn talon
Making the role fun is what it should be about, and doing damage is always fun
this is just not necessarily true
blissful osprey
yeah i think that might just be a you thing, if im tanking damage isn't really my main priority, i play tank with that "protect" fantasy in my head
random obsidian
Thats kinda outdated tho
dawn talon
last season collosus prot warrior had to be nerfed it was doing such insane dama...
colossus prot was doing RIDICULOUS damage, with a fun and intuitive rotation and cool theming… and people were still griping about wanting to play thane for 2/3 of the season
damage does not make people reroll onto tank
blissful osprey
colossus prot was doing RIDICULOUS damage, with a fun and intuitive rotation and...
i had fun on it just doing low keys, was blasting through stuff
random obsidian
I play tank with the same thing in my head, but it grows boring as soon as you're doing irrelevant content
blissful osprey
why are you doing irrelevant content?
random obsidian
When im pushing 17s and we're doing 16s, it's boring asf
Meanwhile the dps still have fun
blissful osprey
just going down 1 key level is enough to go from fun to boring?
random obsidian
If I go help a friend in 12s and I deal no damage but I'm also never under any threat
it's boring
blissful osprey
yeah thats fair
random obsidian
I don't mind if living is hard, but living as a tank atm isnt really hard (most of the times)
So at least I'd like to have fun dealing damage
random stirrup
homework keys suck because they're easy compared to what you have been doing but you still need to focus up a bit to not completely int it (at least before resilient keys became a thing)
blissful osprey
idk, 12s i consider high keys so i dont really have an answer for that, but i just dont think the answer when people are bored of their role is "more damage". ive heard healers say they should do as much as a dps becuase a lot of the time they dont have to heal if people do mechanics right
random obsidian
It's a non issue tho, what if heals and tank did like 70-80% of dps damage?
Game would be tuned around doing more damage and it wouldnt be a big deal
blissful osprey
i think it devalues the role. just like how i think all tanks being self sufficient kinda devalues healing. what if all dps could heal themselves too and healers were only there for emergencies?
i like when the roles are doing what they are named
tanks are focusing on tanking, dps are pumping, healers are actually having to heal
random obsidian
DO you tank tho?
blissful osprey
im not saying you do, im just saying i think thats the direction to go instead of just loading them with damage
random obsidian
Everytime a tank depends on the healer it feels absolutly horrible to play
blissful osprey
well we havent really had that happen in a while, not REALLY
random obsidian
Or take healers for example
blissful osprey
thbat hasnt been a thing since like... what, mop?
random obsidian
every season they did actually hard healing checks in keys
pugging became horrible
DF s2 with the mammoth boss for example
blissful osprey
yeah and the vortex boss in nokhud or whatever ts spelled
random obsidian
There's what you want it to be fantasy wise, and how it works out in the game
blissful osprey
i think theres a lesser version to those bosses
torpid fiber
pugging became horrible
this is just because healer is hard and doesn't give feedback and hence the average healer sucks, no?
blissful osprey
the nokhud boss was like you make a mistake and the group wipes, im not saying it has to be that insane
random obsidian
this is just because healer is hard and doesn't give feedback and hence the aver...
it is yeah
but then if you tune around most healers being bad, healing is boring
hence why, at the very least, let the decent healers do damage
blissful osprey
i think the damage they deal now is fine
blissful osprey
i mean some keys ive seen at high level had healers doing near the 1m mark at times
i dont think thats irrelevant
vivid vessel
I'm just waiting for ks rework cuh
random obsidian
you get me tbf its not 100% irrelevant but its so low compared to the actual dps check that it might as well be
blissful osprey
i think healer damage should be mostly bursty, have good damage for a prio target
plush swan
@vivid vessel you know about the roll the bones bug? you gonna be abusing that?
lime lake
mossy shell
@plush swan you aren't supposed to be talking about RtB....
vivid vessel
Holy shit new exploit !
mossy shell
don't respond zac you will get banned
mossy shell
lime lake
a true outlaw
mighty pivot
zac already getting prebanned for saying that 
plush swan
vivid vessel
I will let you know no one exploit better than me
frank finch
when he tells you you tell me
mossy shell
we are keeping this one private stop asking about it
frank finch
can u msg me it?
lime lake
lime lake
!rollthebug
mighty pivot
!rollthebugs
dawn talon
this is just because healer is hard and doesn't give feedback and hence the aver...
healing isnt really that hard
blissful osprey
im surprised at the ks hate, im enjoying the rework despite it definitely feeling like it should be a big aoe ability
vivid vessel
blissful osprey
healing is the most punishing role which makes it the hardest in some ways, but actually pressing your buttons right dps is by far the hardest
most of the time at least
mossy shell
ok so if you have multiple outlaws in the same instance it increases the odds of 5 buffs additively
triple outlaw is like perma 6 buff
mighty pivot
frank finch
mighty pivot
triple outlaw is back
frank finch
does it work in raid tho
warped tide
it is possible to get the cudgel on vet track i just looted it from the weekly box
mighty pivot
bro
torpid fiber
healing isnt really that hard
The lack of feedback is part of the issue
Only feedback you get as healer is if ppl live or die, and if ppl die it's too late to improve and a lot of healers hate that feeling
mighty pivot
we will be running cudgel in Midnight at this rate
mossy shell
does it work in raid tho
maybe idk
warped tide
yup scales to 691 now
frank finch
time to test it
plush swan
it is possible to get the cudgel on vet track i just looted it from the weekly b...
wait how do u get this at higher ilvl?
same way as last ssn?
blissful osprey
The lack of feedback is part of the issue
Only feedback you get as healer is if...
i think heroic dungeons being harder to kinda help you out without it being timed would be nice
but also nobody wants harder heroics
formal echo
Not liking the animation of Killing Spree >:|
blissful osprey
really? im really liking it
they should make you spin more, more like reaper in overwatch i think, but i think its cool
warped tide
wait how do u get this at higher ilvl?
yueah
mighty pivot
you checked the vendor, they got it from the weekly reward
mighty pivot
it's random between all nightfall items
violet lance
could you explain how you get it as a weekly reward? is it like a chest or something?
plush swan
oh lame
frank finch
can u get that veteran from the daily ones?
potent yacht
does it matter what spec ur in for the weekly?
vivid vessel
Bro no way we have to gamble on the weekly box
Lame af
Time to nuke this weapon @blizzard
mighty pivot
truly the gamba spec
upper hazel
any1 skip quest with a char? i miss the cloak
warped tide
i mean would be nice to get a nuke but still better than dagger offhand rest of season
signal ingot
there is no way to do tazavesh right now?
hot olive
we can do 2 chapters this week?
frank finch
3
torpid fiber
there is no way to do tazavesh right now?
I believe you cannot do tazavesh mythic this week afaik
frank finch
relog
potent yacht
is rank 3 max for cloak this week?
formal echo
they should make you spin more, more like reaper in overwatch i think, but i thi...
Kinda look like you have a seizure imo
blissful osprey
i still think its cool, i like the idea of the spinning around shooting thing, but yeah it could use some work
getting one of each role ready for my group of friends since idk what theyre gonna want and looking at tanks im realizing i really dont vibe with any of them lol
bring me a shaman tank please
or rework brewmaster to actually be fun again
vivid vessel
i still think its cool, i like the idea of the spinning around shooting thing, b...
You ain't spinning around even
They removed that
It's only in front of you
blissful osprey
yeah thats what i mean
i like hte idea of it but they didnt implement it very well
blissful osprey
also bring back smoke bomb
vivid vessel
A classic really
blissful osprey
and also make a rogue tank spec
and also a rogue healer that chucks potions at people
pure folio
and then a support spec like aug
blissful osprey
nono lets not do any more of those abominations
royal ermine
is rank 3 max for cloak this week?
supposed to be yes but just find a bug on accident 
jolly geyser
Smoke bomb aint gone,its just in pvp,unluck
potent yacht
supposed to be yes but just find a bug on accident <:4HEad:937726298539823184>
wut da lol
blissful osprey
yeah but with rogue struggling with utility bringing it back would be great, even if its just a damage reduction or something
royal ermine
wut da lol
apparently an addon called talent tree tweaks broke the quest on my rogue and it only gave me a 701 cloak, I redid the quest chain on my alt since it didn't give me the alt skip since my cloak wasn't 707 on rogue, finished it and my priest was given a 707 cloak, went back on the rogue and did 3 delves to upgrade my cloak from 701 to 707 and when I swapped back to my priest the cloak was now 714
plush swan
for the wep
craggy barn
whast the ~% for canceling ks early
torpid fiber
apparently an addon called talent tree tweaks broke the quest on my rogue and it...
how the fuck can addons be breaking this stuff
craggy barn
and what if its supercharged ks
royal ermine
when I asked earlier today that's the answer that I was given because apparently it auto upgrades the cloak on turn in which bugged out the quest and cloak itself
vivid vessel
Stop exploiting
royal ermine
because I didn't think the alt cloak skip was in the game since I did everything else and my priest didn't have the option
plush swan
Stop exploiting
i've delved too deep into outlaw
i can feel my blood becoming one of you exploiters
royal ermine
vivid vessel
One of us
vivid vessel
and what if its supercharged ks
It's bugged and does -1cp damage
Instead of the 10 cp it does 9
jolly geyser
vivid vessel
So you get double reward!
A longer ks for a smoke break
And it does less damage than intended !
craggy barn
i assume if u ever super charge it just go full length
vivid vessel
If you ever super charge it you get cancer irl I heard
So I don't do that
I love getting punished by more afk time the more cps I spend into it
Great design actually
It's a more chance to drop ADR per cp spent
marsh basin
!fuu
ornate heathBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
buoyant cosmos
And it does less damage than intended !
it's bugged? already?
or just the decision they made
vivid vessel
no ye its bguged
timid idol
dude idk about how good or bugged it is
but damn its a fun animation
but if it really does less damage then thats kinda sad its already bugged 
buoyant cosmos
no ye its bguged
that's craaaazy
I got spooned trinkets in M0, so I'll never get them from m+
hasty warren
Hi Pirates
mighty pivot
this new stealth bug also causes you to sometimes get stuck in vehicle UI. I had to relog to get rid of this for the nightfall event
haughty wigeon
Bro no way we have to gamble on the weekly box
i warned people this would happen
enjoy your busted as rng weapon from weekly world content for aoe memes due to vanish
buoyant cosmos
What's so good from the box?
torpid fiber
you can get veteran track cudgel
buoyant cosmos
Ahhh
torpid fiber
but vendor only sells adventurer
frank finch
now do it on all ur alts
buoyant cosmos
That's a tomorrow me issue
mighty pivot
gamba lost for this week gg unless the you can get the progress spoils reward multiple times a week?
plush swan
can we just dual wield these?
buoyant cosmos
don't wanna
plush swan
high ilvl version
frank finch
can we just dual wield these?
we can yea
pure folio
does it proc both LOL
buoyant cosmos
Is veteran cudgel still bis oh in packs
solo said "giga crazy high pulls"
random stirrup
not worth losing the ilvl in mainhand
buoyant cosmos
mighty pivot
that was for adventurer cudgel
frank finch
that was laos b4 we found out theres a veteran version
buoyant cosmos
yikes
mighty pivot
adventurer was already mythic OH equivalent for aoe