outlaw

[keen belfry]

very close

or i think it is actualy

[finite arch]

Man i hate how s3 tier set looks XD

I swear they made better sets back in legion

[pliant wind]

im trying a no vanish and with sleight and wickers

only -20% dps overall vs KiR

im cooking?

[wintry solar]

non-stealth builds adr uptime is weridly high with fatebound

but im not surprised either considering how it works

[covert heart]

I feel like because of the monthly gear they dont care anymore

Since they put more effort in that for sure

[naive river]

I wish Tricks of the Trade was baseline so I could have Blackjack for M+

[keen belfry]

noah fence

[stiff vector]

Damn we down bad even in mop too

[lime lake]

rip killing spree

[white marten]

That uhdk variance tho

[naive river]

F in chat for old killing spree. We may have hated you but, yea thats about it.

[frank finch]

more like rest in piss

[white marten]

Old KS was great in classic where there wasnt 10 ground swirls every 5 seconds

[vagrant saddle]

old old ks was fine cos u knew u will be glued to ur target ass, not jump around everywhere

[bright crane]

Is this a classic case of careful what you wish for

[lime lake]

wish granted retail is now classic

[low gazelle]

Can I have a talent when I roll three one buffs in a row I get a guaranteed 6 rolls on the next roll?

[sterile oracle]

i wanted to hop in back into outlaw

guess i'll stay assa after reading your last 3 hours of convo

i'm damn sad

the new ks was so satisfying to press to me

[pliant wind]

KS should be uni-target

dont friggin know why its randomized

[keen belfry]

friggin packet yo

[pliant wind]

outlaw is Neo or something wotofo cuh

[red zinc]

Classic will be retail in like 3 years at this pace

[tribal cosmos]

Yup

[red zinc]

Read something about a leak that people will be able to transfer characters to retail after mop classic or something (in terms of level)

No clue if it was true didnt verify

[tribal cosmos]

Classic was just a ploy to funnel players into retail through slowly increasing hard content

Which is why the warwithin raids have been piss easy

[lime lake]

something about a survey asking peoples thoughts on that yeah

[tribal cosmos]

[lime lake]

classic running out of classic

[tribal cosmos]

Holy fk

Theyre just slowly funneling players into retail while making the content more noob friendly and op

Genius absolute genius i say

[covert kestrel]

classic players unfortunately make it their personality to not be retail players so doubtful it will work en masse

[violet ferry]

Introducing World of Warcraft: The War Within Patch 11.2 Classic

[pure jetty]

!wa

why aint the command working lmao

[covert kestrel]

nyan ded

[covert kestrel]

#outlaw message

[pure jetty]

thanks!

[peak dock]

small question, we still using ho trickster build until we get 4 pc with new tier set right?

[covert kestrel]

i mean you can, but you could also use the time to learn kir if you are going to swap to it after getting 4pc anyway

[keen belfry]

nice call freontier

[ionic cloud]

hey this has been bugging me...been using the cooldown manager and this handy guy shows me how much longer adrenaline rush i have. notice it says 318. obviously AR is only 20 sec. but i notice when i go into stealth (which is supposed to freeze AR per Underhanded Upper Hand), it goes to a 2000 second cooldown, where if i stealth at 4 secs of AC for example, it starts counting down from 400. So it's slower but i don't have full AC. has anyone reported this page 1 of google showed nothing

[vapid sundial]

Its bc after those 400s it will actually go away

im p sure

[gaunt phoenix]

The freeze is really a 100x slowdown instead of a real freeze

[ionic cloud]

has it always been this way?

[gaunt phoenix]

yeh

[ionic cloud]

huh

but it doesn't SAY that

[gaunt phoenix]

wow tooltips

AR doesnt tell you it lowers your gcd based on haste

[keen belfry]

if u ever last second an AR like, it can fall off during next crackshot or stealth

its fuinny

[ionic cloud]

damn thats true too

ok thx thought it was bugged or something

[wintry solar]

There are also no tooltips on the rtb buffs

[ionic cloud]

omg yes

[wintry solar]

You have to roll them to find out what they are and what they do

[torpid fiber]

Wait what lmao

Oh that yeah

[wintry solar]

Yeah

[ionic cloud]

that was super annoying

[wintry solar]

Could you imagine the rolled buffs had no tooltip at all?

Actually doa spec

[torpid fiber]

I assumed they'd fucked it up and this is what you meant

Sounded like a thing that would happen

[wintry solar]

Its very blizzard core

[ionic cloud]

so dumb? agreed

[wintry solar]

I could've worded it differently

[latent belfry]

the KS changes happen tomorrow right ?

[torpid fiber]

With 11.2

Whenever that goes live in your region

[latent belfry]

US, so im guessing tomorrow then

[gaunt phoenix]

i need to take a nyquil and pass tf out

faq tmr

[bright crane]

U guys think I can level a dk between now and midnight? It’s 8pm PST

[lime lake]

yeah its gonna be a few months until midnight comes out

so you should have time

[bright crane]

Bet bet

[sudden fulcrum]

ez especially considering the darkmoon fair is up

and you can tank with DK

so insta queues

[bright crane]

It’s up right now?

[sudden fulcrum]

yes

[covert kestrel]

Feel better king

[craggy barn]

darkmoon + exp event

u level up in like 30 minutes

ez

[bright crane]

or do i just go mage

[sudden fulcrum]

mage is always a safe bet

[bright crane]

maybe ill just mage

[finite arch]

Outlaw is a sandbag doa fried spec

[torpid fiber]

ur the goat and goats need sleep

[bright crane]

i didnt do SHIT on my mage all season

dont even have the belt

[sudden fulcrum]

ez gear this upcoming week and plenty of time to do it since presumably your main won't need much

[finite arch]

Whos ready to spam delves after reset

Delvegaming

[sudden fulcrum]

i thought i was a mole but i don't even have 500 delves completed and there are people with the achievement for 1,000

[finite arch]

Cant wait to fight john underpin again

[quaint mauve]

arcane mage is literally being played in every comp on ptr

l

o

l

[quaint mauve]

i think in all of my play time ive done less than 20 delves

[sudden fulcrum]

i like them. usually by the time i finish a delve my food is delivered

and i can pause whenever

easy way to gear alts too

[daring yoke]

for double coupe, do we just send the 2nd coupe with whatever CP we have? or still 6+?

[gaunt phoenix]

you send it early if you would otherwise have to press sinister strike

but if you can AR/GS/PS/BF then you build

[daring yoke]

!wa

[round compass]

Killing spree just had to put me in one more circle to kill me before the patch

[spark tulip]

anyone have a fateboun m+ build? I need to farm some m+ for a bit and i dont feel like playing KS right now. without KS

[ocean imp]

Can't wait to beat the end boss and have a cinematic where Xal'atath will look at the player and say "You wanted the peace outside...but in the end...you will only get the war within...at midnight"

[frail veldt]

I would just take the trickster m+ tree

and remove KS for wahtever you want

and then just spec fatebound

the m+ tree isnt really trickster specific other than the selection of KS

[spark tulip]

I whink i found something o

on max roll

[bright crane]

Then she wiggles her toes and disappears into the void

[ocean imp]

Then Jaina will say : "What in the world was that?"
To which Thrall will answer : "The world...of warcraft"

[finite arch]

The reference goes hard

He said the thing! He said the thing!

Is greenskin's wickers not sim well with crackshot?

I dont see anyone run it at all

Looking like a crack...shot talent

[torpid fiber]

gsw is basically a passive and not a fantastic tuned one

[grim spear]

I bet mythic dimensius will have a hidden phase where we fight xal'atath.

[finite arch]

I hope they do a nyalothaesque ending cinematic for this expansion

Will be thematic

[frigid cloud]

!fuu

[ocean imp]

I heavily doubt it, a super minority will reach Dimensius Mythic and Blizzard wouldn't want the villain of the expansion to be fought only by it

[grim spear]

just a phase, storytelling thing

[finite arch]

Wait am i crazy for asking this but do we loose stacks of kezan when we vanish?

[grim spear]

In combat, right after dimensius is defeated, Xal’atath immediately stab us.
That would make for an amazing experience

They can just write it so that the players lose in the story anyway.

[ocean imp]

Hmm

[grim spear]

I just think a surprise like that would create an absolutely explosive moment during the RWF livestream.

[lime lake]

We beat dimensius, xalatath does a little slurpyslurpy and gobbles him up, and we go into Midnight

[ocean imp]

Never been a fan of winning a combat in gameplay and the the story says you lost

But yeah a surprise like that in the RWF would be nice

[grim spear]

wining to survive ,that's fine

[ocean imp]

Midnight made me homophobic

[finite arch]

Midnight release of midnight?

[vapid sundial]

Midnight's midnight release of midnight.

[slim cove]

are there any video guides for outlaw going into 11.2?

[quaint wharf]

!wa

[frail veldt]

unfortunately no

there are some streamers you can watch play but there isnt a video guide afaik

[stiff vector]

@keen belfry I made some minor alterations to your WA(use my own WA for outlaw), what do you think

[vapid sundial]

Awiener

[mossy shell]

🙈 just hatewatchersss

[topaz root]

shame that KIR is better now it's so boring

[balmy spade]

kir was allways cooler

[agile briar]

Is outlaw fucked deep, to stay polite, in s3?

[frail veldt]

It was better before

And no one's making you play it

[topaz root]

yeah, but now it's considerably better than before

[frail veldt]

The gap between ho and KiR is growing by only 3% from s2 to s3

That's it

What makes KiR boring to you?

It's objectively more complex than HO so some don't like it but few call it "boring" since there's literally more going on

Curious what your reason for that is

[tender breach]

what " Trickster will still prioritize Sinister Strike when Unseen Blade is guaranteed." means?

over what?

[vivid vessel]

why is there a big square here

[vivid vessel]

over everything

ps

bf

adr

[tender breach]

oh

[frail veldt]

Over other builders like PS or bladeflurry

[vivid vessel]

i said that noob

[frail veldt]

I said t again but better

[vivid vessel]

no

mine was better

i separated it into multiple messages so it would be easier to read

[frail veldt]

LOL

Okay zeross

[tender breach]

and the difference is substantial in %?

[vivid vessel]

2/3 iirc

i dont remember tho

but ye

[frail veldt]

Tbh all of outlaws rules are small gains but they add up

[tender breach]

so when unseen blade aura is active we press only sinister strike for builder

[stiff vector]

so theres no way brew is not getting a huge nerf right

im not trying to get out dps'd by a brewmaster for the entire first half of floodgate

[haughty wigeon]

i mean i would be surprised if it doesnt

but at the same time

i reaaaaaaaaaaaally want brew to be the togo meta tank

last time was bfa

[vivid vessel]

i dont

then you might have a meta comp which is physical

except

its without outlaw

and that would suck hard

im ngl

[stiff vector]

I mean tbh thats probably already gonna happen

why wouldnt you just play a sin in the comp right now

[vivid vessel]

Ok but at least physical comps will be off meta

[random obsidian]

if we're shit enough and loud enough we might catch buffs for the .5 patch

[vivid vessel]

So it will be less played

So I can still play outlaw in phys comp and not look like a fool

[vivid vessel]

we wont get buffed

cause of raid

[random obsidian]

so we can never be happy because of raid

?

[sweet badge]

Not sure if being loud has ever done anything for rogue

[vivid vessel]

[sweet badge]

You're just spamming discord with doom

[random obsidian]

not sure rogue has ever been anywhere close to loud tbf

[lime lake]

we need an everyone ping

set the hounds out on twitter

[stiff vector]

kinda hard to be loud when blizzard has made sure that barely anyone still plays the class now

[vivid vessel]

Nah I think it's funny how outlaw will not even be good in the phys comp while being so dependant on the buffs it's unplayable everywhere else

But oh well

[random obsidian]

i might be wrong but since DF it feels like being loud kinda works out, at least for some specs/classes

[vivid vessel]

Qt least we have a good damage profile

[stiff vector]

[sweet badge]

There's not enough rogues to be loud compared to the other communities

[lofty pike]

Are we in raid that much stronger to be shit in m+? Or did i miss something?

[sweet badge]

We're basically ruining the atmosphere for ourselves with dooming and get the scraps we would have gotten anyways

[stiff vector]

no its not about actually being good in raid, its about appearing to be good in raid on a few bosses where we can abuse PC's low target cleave

[random obsidian]

would you agree one of the reasons rogues are so rare is because the class barely ever gets attention from the devs, and when it does its the absolute minimum they can do/think of?

[stiff vector]

but in terms of actual boss dmg? No, theres no reason to believe outlaw will be close to top specs in boss dmg

[vivid vessel]

its pc

[haughty wigeon]

thats probably gonna happen anyways

[marble meteor]

its rare because its more complicated to play

[vivid vessel]

no ty

[haughty wigeon]

rogue is rare cause it doesnt have appealing visuals

more than anything else tbh

[tribal cosmos]

Tomorrow is da day

To farm our cape

[random obsidian]

some other complicated specs still manage to get a good playerbase tho

[lofty pike]

So easy solution would be to gut PC and give us buffs?^^

[marble meteor]

like who

[random obsidian]

i don't play mage but when i pug and mage is meta (always), 90% of the mages are terrible for example

[haughty wigeon]

havoc pre seasons 3

[tribal cosmos]

Mage is probably the closest sibling class to rogue

[haughty wigeon]

ww monk

[vivid vessel]

everytime pc is good in raid

[random obsidian]

and compared to rogue it feels like the main character class

[vivid vessel]

or good in general sorry

[haughty wigeon]

survival

[marble meteor]

havoc doesnt punish mistakes, ww isnt popular lol

[vivid vessel]

its problematic

:)

[haughty wigeon]

havoc 100% punishes mistakes

[tribal cosmos]

Rogue has no raid buff

So

[haughty wigeon]

and ww is more popular than rogue

[lofty pike]

Sure, we got the poison!

[tribal cosmos]

Atrophic pog

[haughty wigeon]

atro does the raid buff heavy lifting

mostly cause the community overesitmates its actual value

which is fine

no need to ruin a good thing

its really just

[tribal cosmos]

Still one shot

[lofty pike]

The only reason why i got a raidslot ...^^

[vivid vessel]

no one cares about atro in m+

[haughty wigeon]

class lacks good visuals

[vivid vessel]

it serves its purpose for raid

[haughty wigeon]

new ks being the most visually impactful thing outlaw has

next to rtb dice animation

[tribal cosmos]

Rogue is just ugly

[haughty wigeon]

secret tech is the most visually impacting thing for sub

[tribal cosmos]

Outlaw is also 140 apm

[haughty wigeon]

sin has nothing visually noteworthy

[random obsidian]

isnt war popular tho? even tho it doesnt really have visually impactful stuff either

[lone spear]

ugly isnt the word i'd use, its just bland

[tribal cosmos]

While assasin is 10 apm

Both extremes nobody likes

[haughty wigeon]

warrior has cool visuals

you have a spear

a dragon roar

a spin

a long spin

a thundering stomp

[tribal cosmos]

Its just assa is too slow in raid

[haughty wigeon]

ghost weapons

[tribal cosmos]

Outlaw too fast

[haughty wigeon]

like

[tribal cosmos]

So they wont be popular

[random obsidian]

ghost weapons? which spec

[haughty wigeon]

its insane how much more visual stimulation warrior has over rogue

[haughty wigeon]

arms

unless they changed it

[tribal cosmos]

99% of players enjoy the 3 button classes

[haughty wigeon]

collosal smash/warbreaker

[tribal cosmos]

Mages extremely simulating

[haughty wigeon]

warbreaker is especially cool

mages is like

[tribal cosmos]

Every class has a very simulating rotation

[haughty wigeon]

giga visaully impactul

havoc is also giga visually impactul

[tribal cosmos]

Meanwhile outlaw dopamine is purely in rolling dice

[haughty wigeon]

ret is also super duper visually impacting

like

[random obsidian]

Idk rogue is kind of a miss in Wow, in any other mmo the theme alone would make it a heavily played class

[haughty wigeon]

you can make clones as ww

[random obsidian]

maybe it is the visuals

[tribal cosmos]

Its the damage profile

Les be honest

[haughty wigeon]

its really not that deep

hero trees also lack visuals, trickster being the best one

but like

its unnoticeable if you have so much other visuals happening from other specs and boss mechanics

[random obsidian]

that's true

[tribal cosmos]

If rogue has subclasses called ninja, or puppeteer or chrono

[random obsidian]

mage get insane hero trees

[tribal cosmos]

It would be popular

[random obsidian]

and we get a tree that flips a coin sometimes

[lone spear]

i think ADR could have a cooler visual, but everything else is like, what more can they add before the spec just looks like a mess

we button press so fast

[haughty wigeon]

ret makes giant hammer or lazers from the sun

rogue gets a mark on your target that bleeds

and coin flips

wow

huge

[tribal cosmos]

Imagine rogue had a time based class that does damage based on how much damage you fit in

HOLY

then you click REWIND

and it does 50% of all damage AGAIN

HOLYYYY

[haughty wigeon]

this is also a thing why rogue lacks visual

[tribal cosmos]

BLIZZARD MAKE DAT REAL

[haughty wigeon]

but just cause outlaw is fast doesnt mean

sin and sub should suffer

i think if they add more explosive stuff to bte and ps and ya know

[tribal cosmos]

Dunno outlaw has very nice dopamine

[haughty wigeon]

cool swosh and swing outlines

outlaw could have cool visuals

[random obsidian]

I'd say outlaw doesnt need much, but themetically, sub could be so much more, and probly assa too

[lone spear]

yea they can, not excusing their lack of work on rogue

[tribal cosmos]

Bte is probably highest dopamine in game

[haughty wigeon]

you dont have to make it into a ff14 limit break

[lone spear]

for sure in need of touch ups

[tribal cosmos]

Bladeflurry needs another animation

[lone spear]

blade flurry puts a sword in ur mouth like zoro

[haughty wigeon]

blade flurry making you like

[balmy topaz]

Crackshot was a bigger dopamine rush when it was 75% dispatch dmg

[haughty wigeon]

do after images with each flurry

[tribal cosmos]

HOLY CRACKSHOT

[haughty wigeon]

so like

you see

[tribal cosmos]

dispatch after crackshot DIFF

Greenskin wickers diff sadge

[random obsidian]

right thats true, why are mages allowed to go all in in terms of visual clutter but we have nothing

[haughty wigeon]

https://tenor.com/view/azusa-aizawa-dodging-sword-attack-azusa-san-anime-dodging-sword-attack-dodge-anime-dodge-gif-21720503

but like

[lone spear]

afterimages could be cool, but also might get noisy. maybe only on builders and spenders

[haughty wigeon]

it copies your action

[vivid vessel]

can you guys see whats wrong in this screenshot

[lone spear]

and not AA

[haughty wigeon]

no sounds

no aas

but like if you bte

[tribal cosmos]

Nothing is wrong

Oh wait yiur sinister blade damage too high

[haughty wigeon]

you should do like 3 afterimages of ghost yous doing bte

or something idk

[lone spear]

i think i would settle with the attack hit animation going to each target too

[tribal cosmos]

Sinister blade is dog shit ability remove it

[balmy topaz]

Nice dispatch dmg at the bottom

[haughty wigeon]

double into the dreadghost aspect

[lone spear]

like u see 8 bullets fly to enemies

when u bte

[haughty wigeon]

cannon ball barrage is so liked by casuals cause it was visually impactul

it looked cool

[haughty wigeon]

this ya

[vivid vessel]

nah check ks damage tho

[tribal cosmos]

Just make bte a shot gun

[hollow dragon]

why bte when u can bite

[balmy topaz]

Just saw wtf

[hollow dragon]

nomnomnom

[haughty wigeon]

ks is huge visually

[vivid vessel]

:)

[tribal cosmos]

I have decided

[balmy topaz]

Prio target btw

[haughty wigeon]

i looks so fucking cool

[vivid vessel]

shard of halkias

damage

[tribal cosmos]

To not play outlaw this season

[vivid vessel]

on first shard

[balmy topaz]

[vivid vessel]

ks is not hitting it ever

:)

im just losing 15% prio on tht one

[tribal cosmos]

Why press 150 apm

[vivid vessel]

litteraly

[tribal cosmos]

For 0 dmg

Thoughts thoughts

[mighty pivot]

nuh-uh no hatewatchers just big fans

[lone spear]

i mean apm = damage shouldnt be a thing

[tribal cosmos]

Meanwhile paladins are afk hitting 3 buttons per year triple your dps

Thoughts thoughts

[lone spear]

shruge

[balmy topaz]

There’s not a massive amount to do next week is there, cape quest and weekly m0?

[lone spear]

play pal then if u care about easy and damage

i dont want easy

me want fun

[tribal cosmos]

@balmy topaz pretty sure were rep farming

[stiff hawk]

M0 and Dleves

Lvl 8 Delves give Heroic chest too

[random obsidian]

iirc rets are part of the reason why we lost our bonus range

[stiff hawk]

and possible Set piece

[random obsidian]

so everyone should hate rets

[tribal cosmos]

We lost our ranged damage diff ?

[balmy topaz]

I’m away at wedding till Monday

[tribal cosmos]

Damn

[vivid vessel]

@glass mortar here for when you wake up cuh

[balmy topaz]

At least I’m not missing anything

[tribal cosmos]

We lost acrobatic strikes ?

Couldnt be me

I rather hit from half way across map

[random obsidian]

ret rework gave them 3y range too, then melees without it started to ask for bonus range, and blizzard solution was to remove it from everyone

[balmy topaz]

I wonder what your dps is on that pull

14 mill

And 3 is on the target you’re attacking

[vivid vessel]

it was fine i mega procced perma 6 buff

[stiff vector]

lul sin does 50% more dmg to the shard with literally JUST singular focus(basically just free damage for doing damage to the pack btw) than we do with sending every crackshot BTE into it

[tribal cosmos]

Tank fmg

[balmy topaz]

Another unholy dk season

[tribal cosmos]

Dont worry ive sent blizzard

A message

Outlaw blade flurry back to 80%

[balmy topaz]

@vivid vessel your team isn’t looking too bad now

[tribal cosmos]

And uncapped

Outlaw is op

[balmy topaz]

A lot better than the start of the tubing at least

[vivid vessel]

if you ignore outlaw ye

feral is mega good

[tribal cosmos]

Isnt warrior higher apm then outlaw

[vivid vessel]

and brew is op

[balmy topaz]

Bfa outlaw + crackshot

[balmy topaz]

Maybe we get another big buff gg

[tribal cosmos]

Ive always wanted to play a good warrior

[vivid vessel]

ye for sure bro

[tribal cosmos]

Like tank warrior i mean

[balmy topaz]

Frfr no cap

[vivid vessel]

we need a revert of the bfs nerfs at the very least

and that wont happen so

[mighty pivot]

not sure if "boring" is the right word, but KIR has streaks of nothing but SS more often than HO, and subterfuge windows feel worse because ambush is very good comparatively

[tribal cosmos]

Blade flurry needs to go to 100%

@vivid vessel 20% aura nerf for 100% bf

Will you take it

[balmy topaz]

They either nerf others aoe

and by that I mean everyone

Or we get a buff

[tribal cosmos]

Well blade flurry needs to be soft capped

[stiff vector]

why does outlaw even exist

[tribal cosmos]

The damage is so low anyway

[balmy topaz]

0 cape dmg btw

[vivid vessel]

this is the dps on the shard

we do 3mil btw

[balmy topaz]

So cool

So thematic

[vivid vessel]

like this is mine

[balmy topaz]

[stiff vector]

ye ik

[balmy topaz]

[proven summit]

FUCK ASSA

[tribal cosmos]

Is it time for feral ?

[stiff vector]

[vivid vessel]

buddy

[tribal cosmos]

Is assa target capped ?

Is sub capped ?

[vivid vessel]

no

[tribal cosmos]

Angone know

i know

I just wanted you to accept that

[proven summit]

Sub is capped wdym

[balmy topaz]

Nerf sub and Assa

Gg

[vivid vessel]

bp and sectech arent

[proven summit]

Sectec is 5target sqrt

HUH

[tribal cosmos]

Bp

[vivid vessel]

ok i think there is a major difference between a hard cap

and a soft cap

[tribal cosmos]

Soft cap is way more dmg

Then a hard cap

[proven summit]

5target sqrt is basically capped actually

Similar to outlaw rather

[balmy topaz]

You stole blade flurry

[tribal cosmos]

AHAHAHAHAHAH

[proven summit]

I mean u can look at the math sir

But it's true.

[tribal cosmos]

The math is feral best class

[proven summit]

If we're talking raw numbers at least

Ofc sometimes outlaw aoe hits nothing which is another problem

[balmy topaz]

I mean

Have you seen KS

Compared to the old one

[proven summit]

Yea it sux ass

[balmy topaz]

It’s wild

Indirect nerf

[vivid vessel]

imagine if sec tech was hitting random target instead of your main target

would be so funny

[vivid vessel]

i dont believe in math

[proven summit]

[vivid vessel]

fabricated concept

[tribal cosmos]

https://tenor.com/view/sword-flash-gif-19441544

When they gonna release a fun class ?

[tropic zephyr]

"oh you're law" you have been removed from the group

[tribal cosmos]

“ oh your not assa “

HAHAHA

[tropic zephyr]

We were always the prio dude

[vivid vessel]

i sincerely think s1 outlaw might havbe been better than current outlaw

cause in s1 we werent even playing with raid buffs

[tribal cosmos]

Dragonflight season 3 outlaw was the best outlaw has ever recently been

So

[vivid vessel]

Now we play with raid buffs and it looks just as bad

I'm starting to think s1 outlaw playing with full raid buffs might have been ok compared to now

[tropic zephyr]

Yeah probably, and we were fb so we actually had prio

Less than s2

More than S3 tho

[vivid vessel]

?

do you not know

he doesnt know guys

[vast frost]

blizz r just afraid of making bfa outlaw again or something

[vivid vessel]

someone tell him

[tropic zephyr]

I know

I said

Less than s2

[tribal cosmos]

Woops

Sent the wrong pic

[vivid vessel]

no you dont

[stiff vector]

oh no

[vivid vessel]

fb doesnt have prio

[stiff vector]

hedoesnt know

[vivid vessel]

at all

[stiff vector]

[vivid vessel]

it loses 20% st in aoe

[tropic zephyr]

Yeah

[tribal cosmos]

I want some steak brb

[tropic zephyr]

Do you not think fb aoe has more Prio than current trickster?

That's all I'm saying

[vivid vessel]

no lol

it certainly doesnt

[stiff vector]

now that it also plays KS? Definitely not

[tropic zephyr]

Oh, ok, I didn't realize it was that bad

[stiff vector]

its basically losing 10-20% prio from the dogshit hero talents giving you reverse funnel, on top of the 12-15% loss of KS just hitting a random target

[tropic zephyr]

Yeah, that tree's design is unfortunate

[spare dome]

no cds, no scaling, no uncap, no bitches

[stiff hawk]

Doomlaw

[stiff vector]

they couldnt make a spec that is supposed to do prio btw, be worse at doing prio damage if they tried

literally

[haughty wigeon]

Real(z)

[vivid vessel]

dont say this name here please

[tropic zephyr]

Don't antagonize him

[stiff hawk]

The Spree of Killing has ended

[tropic zephyr]

He still is one of the guy that tried to get feedback directly from the community, we need to keep things open

[vivid vessel]

ye for sure buddy

"guys please provide ks feedback"

[gloomy coral]

Dont mind Zac, he is a chronic dev hater

[haughty wigeon]

I’m not the one antagonizing him fren

[vivid vessel]

[haughty wigeon]

[stiff vector]

The cost of getting KS reworked(into a barely less ass ability): All the prio dmg, all the ST dmg, and significant aoe dmg, apparently

[stiff hawk]

*and also hates every change outlaw gets at first

[tropic zephyr]

I mean, we've all played S2 and followed the discussion since alpha rofl

[vivid vessel]

this is so untrue

[haughty wigeon]

I’m gonna shot some crack into my veins

[tropic zephyr]

I'm just saying let's not close doors

[vivid vessel]

i loved all the s3 shit

[haughty wigeon]

Actually very true

[vivid vessel]

and the df things in general

[haughty wigeon]

Ya don’t worry man, he hangs out in fh more than rh

He can take a joke and dish it out

Realz is actually very chill guy

[dense bridge]

what if they made rb our mastery instead of main gauche

[haughty wigeon]

We veng players shared some laughs as we unravel the duck tape that kept our spec functional with him

Simpler days

[vivid vessel]

like saying this when objectively every changes we ahve gotten in tww (what did we even get lol?) is lazy, bad, or unfinished

What am I supposed to do

Glaze them or

[stiff vector]

I dont think its "hating" when they constantly make objectively and blatantly horrible design decisions that only create more problems for the spec, without actually fixing any of the glaring ones.

[vivid vessel]

The only good change we got is ks rework litteraly

Hero talents are all shit

And that's not even a hot take

That's universally accepted by now

[dense bridge]

whoever the rogue dev is feels like they dont actually play the spec

[vivid vessel]

I'm not even controversial with that statement anymore

Haste change

Acro removal

Ok say er removal is 50/50

[dense bridge]

maybe theyre an ass main or perhaps even a sub main but certainly not outlaw

[vivid vessel]

You can say I was a hater on that one, I still think it was bad but some people liked it

So whatever

Say I was a hater for that one idc

[fair topaz]

I still miss er

[vivid vessel]

Ks redesign is litteraly going from the worse ability in the game to the worse ability in the game

Like what you want me to do

[wintry solar]

I loved everything TWW gave us. Save for ks. I just likes it. Everything else was great. There's just not much was done lol.

[vivid vessel]

I'm all for praising the devs

[dense bridge]

at least it doesnt have a moderately high chance to kill you when you press it

[vivid vessel]

What is there to praise tho

[tropic zephyr]

Yeah I agree that our hero trees were a miss

[dense bridge]

aside from deathstalker they are very bland and flavorless

[stiff vector]

well they werent just thematically and visually a miss...they are just a miss in every possible way

[vivid vessel]

funny thing ds is prolly one of the worse

[tropic zephyr]

But really, I think that the trees as a whole was a miss

[dense bridge]

any horde representation is good

[haughty wigeon]

Deathstalker was aids ya

[stiff vector]

and they have done virtually nothing to change that, save for actually make it so some of them are playable because they were so bad or so bugged before that they just couldnt be played

[wintry solar]

I liked trickster from the get-go. Especially after they accidentally gave us double coup in season 1 and no one knew about it

[tropic zephyr]

Like, the concept of specializing even more is cool, but I think it should have been one tree per class

[vivid vessel]

ok so

[tropic zephyr]

Not shared trees

[vivid vessel]

one thing hero talents did good

[haughty wigeon]

It’s not that the dev didn’t care about rogue hero trees

[mighty pivot]

except by one person

[haughty wigeon]

It’s more like

[vivid vessel]

they gave assa and sub more relevance

[haughty wigeon]

They ran out of time

[vivid vessel]

assa got more funnel

and sub got bf

[stiff vector]

yeah...the "ran out of time" excuse worked the first time

[vivid vessel]

we got less prio

and cancer

so

[tropic zephyr]

I think it's that + the idea of shared trees between spec is just bad and doesn't work for most classes

[stiff vector]

it doesnt work another 3 times

[haughty wigeon]

This ya

[fluid meadow]

best meme is the double cup in s2 it' a bug s3 it's a tierset

[wintry solar]

Great idea on paper though. Maybe not in practice

[vivid vessel]

[stiff hawk]

That one was in my head yeah

[fair topaz]

A good thing for me is perma tricks

[dense bridge]

it really depends on the class, some specs have competitive trees while others have ones that are complete dogass and are designed for the other spec (arms colossus tree is buttcheeks but feels tailor made for prot for example)

[stiff hawk]

that stuck to me

[stiff vector]

I mean the S3 fatebound tierset is basically just a bandaid fix for a bug lol

[tropic zephyr]

Also we got baby arms

[vivid vessel]

ok but was i wrong tho

[tropic zephyr]

[vivid vessel]

new er is objectively just gameplay removal

[haughty wigeon]

Non of them have competitive trees

[vivid vessel]

and its invisible

random buff

[haughty wigeon]

All of them just have one better tree

[vivid vessel]

some people disliked old er so whatever

fine

[haughty wigeon]

Some people

[vivid vessel]

But they literally took coup and made it into er

[dense bridge]

sentinel and pl are pretty competitive

[vivid vessel]

No change nothing new

Like

It's not

[haughty wigeon]

More like casuals who hate “button bloat”

[vivid vessel]

Ok you could have kept er minigsme and removed the button tbf so

[haughty wigeon]

Actually er being removed makes me

[vivid vessel]

That's not a valid point

[haughty wigeon]

Kinda Madge

Still

[vivid vessel]

no one cared about the button itself

Also if you want to remove buttons

[haughty wigeon]

It helped variance

[vivid vessel]

Remove fucking gs

No one cares about gs

Get me out already

[haughty wigeon]

Unironically ya

Gs basically gone

You can macro it

[vivid vessel]

• they removed er before they removed snd

[haughty wigeon]

Cause ogcd

[vivid vessel]

So

[tropic zephyr]

Nah really, it's not, it forces the trees to be something that can be applied to two specs that has nothing in common

[haughty wigeon]

[vivid vessel]

Shared hero talents have only caused issues

Both for tuning and gameplay

[haughty wigeon]

I still don’t get why they though shared hero trees was a good idea

[tropic zephyr]

If all specs had their own hero tree it would be way way way better

[haughty wigeon]

It’s a balancing nightmare

[tropic zephyr]

In every way

[stiff hawk]

Remove GS, Bring back MfD?

[vivid vessel]

Especially since it's more work?? So what's the point

[haughty wigeon]

Yep

It’s so limiting

[daring yoke]

do you press KIR during subterfuge?

[haughty wigeon]

For multiple reasons

Like

One example

[dense bridge]

i think the overlap can be interesting between different roles like dps/h dps/tank or melee/ranged

[haughty wigeon]

The two specs have to share an ability with enough umph and similar cd for the tree activator

And it’s hard

[wintry solar]

You can find something that each spec would have in common and if not, youd give them something. Which they did for other classes. The rogue trees just suck. It's not a philosophy thing. It's a they don't do good rogue design thing.

[haughty wigeon]

When your class has tank and healer roles

Like

Eye of tye sucked cock for prot

[stiff hawk]

Because

Frost Fire was so cool

Such a cool idea

lets do it

[haughty wigeon]

But now it’s activator for Templar to match with wake of ashes

[stiff hawk]

"Oh on some classes doesnt work as good unlucky"

[haughty wigeon]

Lights prism turned into a 30 second cd and lights hammer removed

To match with wake

For herald

10/10

That’s one issue out of many btw

[tropic zephyr]

No they tried that, finding things specs have in common is a nightmare, it should just focus on a spec core gameplay

Remember when fazed stacks applied with feint?

[vivid vessel]

[tropic zephyr]

Because we have that in common...

[haughty wigeon]

Havoc doomed to have soul gameplays

[wintry solar]

From the pov of every other class I play, I disagree.

[haughty wigeon]

cause veng uses souls

[vivid vessel]

soul is prolly the worse resource in the game thoughts ? @haughty wigeon

[haughty wigeon]

It is

[tropic zephyr]

No but what I'm saying is that it was doomed to be impossible to make shared trees good for everyone

[haughty wigeon]

I will never argue that

It’s a weird resource

[tropic zephyr]

Some classes might have what they need to make their shared trees work, but it was doomed to have some that just can't work smoothly

[haughty wigeon]

It should be a veng only resource

And not make havoc suffer

Cause like

They have 0 things that generate souls constantly and nothing that sucks souls baseline

Make it into combopoints and be done with it

[wintry solar]

I'll extend an olive branch. The idea that they have to share something is stupid. Because then you get something like DB BDK that feels like you're playing it wrong when you play it correctly.

I like the idea but they could've gone about it a better way

Maybe it's all just visuals

[dense bridge]

its an interesting idea but it comes down to how well the dev knows the class/specs

[wintry solar]

Blue blood boil is cool

[lime lake]

other classes get visuals?

[dense bridge]

yeah, packleader lets you spawn in rexxar-ish beasts

[wintry solar]

You can't make an example out of rogue hero trees outside of the lack of visuals

[mighty pivot]

the specs don't need to share something. Trickster's issues aren't because sub & outlaw don't share enough for instance. I'ts hindered by strange design choices (untrackable UB, fazed existing etc)

[vivid vessel]

i mean kinda tho

ub works on sub because they only have one builder

[tropic zephyr]

I really don't know what other way they could have gone. I think this is what doomed the feature from the start

[stiff vector]

Also tying trickster to KS was just the MOST obviously horrible design decision imaginable

[dense bridge]

would it be any worse if we got deathstalker instead

[stiff vector]

but they did it anyway

[vivid vessel]

on outlaw you need the stupid wa and still need to spam ss perma while you dont want you

because oh !

we have more than one builder

surprise

didnt think about that did you

[wintry solar]

I still want to try feint trickster

[vivid vessel]

i would kil myself if i had to play ds

[wintry solar]

In their private dev server at least

[jolly geyser]

Fent trickster

[dense bridge]

i get it

[vivid vessel]

not being able to swap target ever

[dense bridge]

because youre a Deathstalker

[vivid vessel]

is so terrible

[stiff vector]

and then they made it worse, because tying the entire tree to killing spree(knowing it was not only weak, but basically unplayable) by making coup something that locked you out of casting anything else for like 2 seconds

[mighty pivot]

ok then they could add PS to the list for outlaw. It's wouldn't go against the design of hero trees, it's more of an oversight/stubbornness from their side

[stiff vector]

like...the way they shipped trickster with the xpac was not just a matter of "oh well, at least they tried" you cannot convince me they remotely tried with that tree, and ignored such blatantly terrible design decisions. It was always going to be doomed from the start without a complete rework.

[vivid vessel]

ye that was one of my proposed fix

[wintry solar]

rogue was one of the classes that needed a new active ability from the tree. Outlaw is way too different from the other specs

[dense bridge]

maybe they should have reworked it to be more in line

unique doesnt always mean good

or valuable

[mighty pivot]

trickster doesn't need an active. I could see it for FB seeing how it plays automatically

[wintry solar]

agreed

[dense bridge]

couldve just had coup de grace just outright replace dispatch

[tropic zephyr]

Yes, the theme of rogue, and of outlaw specifically, is kind of all over the place

[haughty wigeon]

Eh

Debateable in that

Theme and fantasy wise

[wintry solar]

Outlaw has a very broad theme

[haughty wigeon]

I think all three specs are very coherent in theme

It just

Vanish I guess?

And I frankly also considering it a non problem tho

[dense bridge]

i dunno

outlaw to me feels like it cant decide if it wants to be like a bandit type kind of thing or a pirate

[vivid vessel]

both?

[prisma vessel]

https://tenor.com/view/patchy-the-pirate-spongebob-nicktoons-gif-15268142

[haughty wigeon]

It can be both

[dense bridge]

should it though

[haughty wigeon]

Ret fights between a templar and a crusader

So

Ya

[vivid vessel]

why not

[wintry solar]

ret alao has visuals that reinforce those themes

[tropic zephyr]

Don't even think about abilities, just think about what a swashbuckler, a shadow ninja and some venom killer have in common

[haughty wigeon]

Havoc fights between being a stationary demon and a fast high movement speed demon

I think outlaw has strong fantasy

It just

[dense bridge]

id have it focus on being one or the other

[haughty wigeon]

Criminal there

Outlaw is just criminal the spec

[wintry solar]

way too broad

[haughty wigeon]

And it branches out from there

[tropic zephyr]

Rogue is the only class that has this theme problem, most other class have a clear cut theme

[mighty pivot]

outlaw's theme is fine

[tropic zephyr]

Maybe hunter has this problem too with surv especially

[dense bridge]

yeah hunter's is kinda ass

[haughty wigeon]

You have gun, your a highway man

[dense bridge]

mm has a clear identity

[prisma vessel]

MM's the only of the 3

spiner

snper*

omfg

[wintry solar]

Surv talent name convention is consistent though

[dense bridge]

spiner

[prisma vessel]

i need coffee

LOL

[tropic zephyr]

Not really, this is why a lot of people complain that a swashbuckler shouldn't have a "shadow dance" like gameplay

[haughty wigeon]

I think survival fits its fantasy too

[haughty wigeon]

See I wanted to lead into that

But didn’t want to sound like a dick

But like

[dense bridge]

make it fit the fantasy then

[wintry solar]

I think hunter is fine actually. Marksmen does what marksmen do

[dense bridge]

[haughty wigeon]

This is such a non problem but at the same time sure a easy fix

Just like

[tropic zephyr]

No but like I don't mind, I love the gameplay, but I see a lot of people coming in here and complain about that

[haughty wigeon]

Replace vanish with vanish

[prisma vessel]

idk i can live my one piece fantasy as outlaw so.

[haughty wigeon]

But different name

[prisma vessel]

xD

[mighty pivot]

fwiw I find vanish thematic for outlaw. The problem is the gameplay impact of dropping combat and resetting mobs (especially in solo gameplay)

[haughty wigeon]

And different animation

Gg

There

Parley

[wintry solar]

im gonna go there

watch out

[haughty wigeon]

You load your gun and bag of dirty tricks to use your stealth abilities without stealth

No vanish visual

You just reload and cock your gun

Boom there

The problem is solved

But like

It’s such a non issue

[prisma vessel]

the john wick reload?

[haughty wigeon]

That like it’s a silly thing to divert resources to

[tropic zephyr]

Yeah like we're supposed to play dirty etc... but people are not incorrect when they say that it looks a lot like shadow dance

and why would we have something in common with shadow ninjas?

[wintry solar]

Going away from vanish would help make Outlaw more unique from the other specs and help its theme some.

gonna have to tie crackshot to something else though

cant lose that

[random obsidian]

having all three specs rely on stealth windows is kind of lazy design tho

[haughty wigeon]

I mean

It’s rogue tho

[short heath]

prompted hero talents

[past sphinx]

Does title cutoff normally end on reset for US servers ? Or a few hours before

[haughty wigeon]

That’s like saying having all three paladin specs rely on judgement is lazy

[random obsidian]

Mage is mage yet none of the three specs play the same idk

[wintry solar]

"but theyre rogue" is such a lazy argument

[wintry solar]

it is

[haughty wigeon]

But they don’t play the same tho

[random obsidian]

yeah judgment is totally the same as vanish/shadow dance for sure

[haughty wigeon]

Okay

[lofty pike]

I still hope for a Last second Tuning Pass and a rework for midnight^^

[haughty wigeon]

You wanna play that

All three specs relying on wings

Is that better?

[wintry solar]

we will. dw about it

[random obsidian]

it's better but you know full well wings is just a cd that doesn't warp the gameplay of the pal around it

vanish/shadow dance does

and is much more noticeable

[haughty wigeon]

[wintry solar]

its the theyre X class so they HAVE to rely on Y machanic by default

[haughty wigeon]

I am going insane

Shadowdance is a cd

Vanish is a cd for outlaw

[mighty pivot]

I don't see a problem with that similarity. The two specs are very different. Both having a small window of using stealth abilities is fine, same as both specs having basically the same finisher (evisc - dispatch). Not everything needs to be entirely different as long as the spec identity is clear

[haughty wigeon]

Vabish is also a cd for sin but in a different way

Vabish/shadowdance does different things for each spec

Like it’s crazy to want to take away stealth from rogue

Even if outlaw/combat is the pugilist spec

[random obsidian]

No one wants to take away the stealth?

The point is just that all three specs shouldnt revolve around the stealth

both mechanically and thematically

[spare dome]

yea for example outlaw can revolve around doing damage

[haughty wigeon]

Sin doesn’t revolve around stealth

Outlaw crackshot is probably one of the more popular versions of the spec

But sure again I find it to be a non problem

[random obsidian]

Crackshot doesnt have to be tied to stealth

[wintry solar]

I think its unfair how sub and sin could talent out of double vanish though

they get more builds :(

[haughty wigeon]

But if people feel
More happier with changing vanish animation and name to something less stealth related then go for it

[random obsidian]

Don't change vanish

[haughty wigeon]

I mean what would you put it on instead of vanish

[random obsidian]

Just free it from crackshot

[wintry solar]

make it an active button with 3 charges

[random obsidian]

make a new button idk

[vivid vessel]

bte

[haughty wigeon]

[wintry solar]

idk

[haughty wigeon]

Just baseline bte

[vivid vessel]

yep

[haughty wigeon]

Like dispatch gone?

[wintry solar]

like just have ace reset bte cd?

[vivid vessel]

Nah

[haughty wigeon]

Bte only finisher?

[vivid vessel]

Like just ace reset bte cd

Either that or pressing bte enters the crackshot window

[wintry solar]

best zac cook ngl

[haughty wigeon]

That sounds

Like weird

[wintry solar]

I'm gonna unignore him for this

[haughty wigeon]

They would have to nerf bte cd to vanish cd

To keep the loop

[vivid vessel]

Nah you can tune it differently

To have shorter windows but more frequent

[warped tide]

how does the bubbling wax compare in s3? still not onpar with mana oils?

[vivid vessel]

Like if it's directly ace reseting bte cd you imagine you have mini crackshot windows every 5 s ormsjt

[haughty wigeon]

I mean crackshot is already fairly frequent

[vivid vessel]

While rn it's longer windows every 20

[wintry solar]

I would coom on my keyboard

[vivid vessel]

Ye

but i like the dynamic of vanish so

[wintry solar]

the extra randomness since youre not in vanish so you dont really expect it

[vivid vessel]

wont be me advocating for that change

just an idea

[haughty wigeon]

Sounds divisive

And that’s putting it nicely

I think like the simplest solution is make a vanish clone slap it on the class tree for outlaw only

Vanish is a button that’s only used “defensively”

[random obsidian]

Anything that frees vanish to be used defensively would be perfect

[haughty wigeon]

[random obsidian]

And that'd solve most issues people have with it tbf

[haughty wigeon]

I knew it.

[wintry solar]

im glad this spec is active enough to have these conversations

got worried for a bit

[random obsidian]

you knew that having vanish as a defensive tool would make some happier?

[wintry solar]

somehow, outlaw has given people the idea that outlaw is stealthless which was only for bfa and depending on what you played in SL.

[vivid vessel]

uh

in sl

[short heath]

i tried sub today and remembered why outlaw is more fun

[random obsidian]

you'd use stealth for CtO procs in ShL wouldnt you?

[haughty wigeon]

I mean

[vivid vessel]

we played ma, deathly shadows, dust, cto was increased chance from stealth and only from abush or dispatch

[haughty wigeon]

Every expansion you’ve used vanish offensively more than defensively

In classic you used it for extra ambush

With preperation for another ambush

It was big

So I really don’t get where “vanish is defensive” came from when it was used offensively for all of its existence more than defensively

[random obsidian]

When it's less potent offensively, you can use it defensively, you get the choice

Which is what some people like about it

[vivid vessel]

well

we have 2 charges tho

we have never been able to use it defensively mroe than now

[wintry solar]

if they tied utility to it, actual utility, I think an argument could be made

[haughty wigeon]

I mean the only defensive thing you can do with it back then like WAYYYY BACK THEN

was reset bosses and not die from a wipe

It didn’t really help you survive during an encounter

Now it can

With soothing shadows

[wintry solar]

tbf, the amount you gained from vanishing wasnt that high back then.

[haughty wigeon]

And the second charge

[haughty wigeon]

It was solid enough to be considered

[wintry solar]

it was enough to justify doing it

yeah

I dont think it was actually big for combat until mop

when they added all the subterfuge stuff to the talent tree

"tree"

[tropic zephyr]

I don't mind, I really like current gameplay. But I have seen this point brought up by a lot of people

[random obsidian]

I only started playing outlaw in ShL, and didnt play that much so I can't speak for how it was before, I just remember that most of the tiers I've played stealth wasnt as potent as it is now

[torpid fiber]

I think the whole vanish as a defensive thing started bc of M+

Also ngl thr actual issue with vanish gameplay is that it's ass in open world

[wintry solar]

its absolutely the most potent its ever been

no what it is