outlaw

[gaunt phoenix]

unless you must vanish for AR of course

[daring oxide]

as we get 7cp or right before the last tick of damage or on the last tick of damage?

[gaunt phoenix]

its the cps rule

[civic void]

Can't answer for him but gear is also important, daggers are only relevant for rogues and allow you to flex 2 specs while you are competing vs other specs for outlaw mh and can't flex

[daring oxide]

ok cps

[vital wave]

true

[mighty pivot]

@gaunt phoenix have you checked how the KS change affects outlaw's scaling with OH dps? It used to be fairly high when KS had an off hand attack but that is gone now

[lofty sand]

Because of supercharge its Worth to roll in subterfuge Right? But then do you lose dmg if u Just delay roll and then vanish?

[daring oxide]

it just naturally means OH matters even less now right

[lofty sand]

I mean delay, then roll, then vanish

[mighty pivot]

yes

[daring oxide]

so we can use shadow cudgel maybe a bit longer

for m+

aoe

[willow portal]

^lets go

cudgel time

[mighty pivot]

in my lazy sim it was equal to like 695 OH but that was with random-ass ptr gear

[gaunt phoenix]

i doubt it matters a whole lot

bte and ps are also hybrid spells that use offhand weapon dps

[mighty pivot]

true

[slate forge]

Going to miss cudgel was are coolest animation

[mighty pivot]

what if they add it as an outlaw talent for midnight?

[vivid vessel]

Ty

[vivid vessel]

I can't play outlaw because I will have a dagger upped so I can play both specs

• last 2 bosses have damage amp and downtime

I doubt outlaw is good

[mighty pivot]

holy that is one chonker

[vivid vessel]

Unless I underestimate outlaw 2 target in that 2nd to last boss

But for 2 target damage you need to play pc + dancing

[balmy topaz]

Damage amp will probably be superior

[vivid vessel]

So you lose 8% st

Say 10

So whatdehelly

It's int

[gaunt phoenix]

this is live HO https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/g6vM6yxjLzhTYRdxKsqaK5

if I enable ptr (still old tier) https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/tPwx51xn7pJmB8eKMgJbFg

[mighty pivot]

so it loses like 20% value more or less

[vivid vessel]

Screen shot please I'm on phone :3

[mighty pivot]

[gaunt phoenix]

offhand stat weight goes frm like 27 to 22

[mighty pivot]

OH dps goes from 27.32 to 22.21

[vivid vessel]

Wtfff

Outlaw nerf gg

It's so over

[mighty pivot]

might as well delete the spec at this point

[gaunt phoenix]

joever

[balmy topaz]

[glass mortar]

Ok but if they make oh weak enough maybe we can wear cudgel into s3

🙂

[vivid vessel]

Real

Bro outlaw would be so back if we could dagger main hands..

[slate forge]

With KS being so long why wouldn’t we swap to cudgel and back during it?

[vivid vessel]

You can't anymore

It's a channel now

[slate forge]

Sad

[vivid vessel]

So you can't do the same shit as before

Old ks was just

Idk

Weird ass anim

[hot olive]

They are so proud of the new ks animation

[languid coral]

how good these buffs are we actually good now

[slate forge]

Only buffs will be for KS from now on to force us to watch the animation longer and longer

[heavy shadow]

Where can I see animation

[old gull]

Ranged rogue in midnight

[jovial dome]

But it’s already 5 seconds! (I’m sorry I had to)

[keen belfry]

Should I prog as outlaw again guys

I raid in low guild

[vivid vessel]

[keen belfry]

I kinda think sub could be chill

And ez spec for calling

Haven’t raided as sub since fyrakk prog

@vivid vessel how easy is sub in raid

I don’t remember coup rules

[vivid vessel]

Idk for me it's very easy

And I really enjoy the hyper optimisation of lil CDs that you do

Like by the end of prog I have every lil cool down to the millisecond it's satisfying

On reclears you don't have that at all so I don't like sub on reclears

Like the button press themselves aren't really hard

The main "difficulty" is the progging of the fight

When you should hold or not

Press where and shit

[viscid perch]

How bad is ho compared to kir on ptr atm?

[gaunt phoenix]

single target is ~3-4% behind
dungeonslice is ~6% behind
5 target is ~10% behind

[vivid vessel]

10

[heavy shadow]

so HO only real option atm?

[glass mortar]

ho is the one behind

[tropic zephyr]

Yes, all hail ho

[jovial dome]

So it’s been Tony Montana’d

[heavy shadow]

ah

[tropic zephyr]

Where my HOmies at

[gaunt phoenix]

unless we invent a new ho build

[tropic zephyr]

[jovial dome]

We’re sad

[heavy shadow]

bros before HOs

[glass mortar]

HO fatebound CB with the CB modifier

CBing new kspree how could it be bad

[viscid perch]

I mean do we even take supercharger as ho ?

[gaunt phoenix]

it seems very close to 1 vigor 2 lethality

so vigor is just better cause it helps rng

[vivid vessel]

I mean tbf it's not that behind

[viscid perch]

Ye but we dont want to roll all the time like on live

[vivid vessel]

4% is nothing

We have had worse ho

[gaunt phoenix]

yeh

[vivid vessel]

With ho being legit 90% playrate

So

[fresh acorn]

Is there a way to run deft and HO?

[gaunt phoenix]

yea but it should just be worse

if you do use deft it is lower priority than ambush and ps

[fresh acorn]

Oh wow

[viscid perch]

I thought kir was only ahead that much bec of the perma 5 buff with our tier atm

[sharp tartan]

Really hesitating between Assa which I’ve played for last couple of seasons, and going outlaw for a change of pace and playstyle. Has anyone here made the switch from assa lately ?

[gaunt phoenix]

it's ho that likes our current tier more

[near rock]

anything can happen

[gaunt phoenix]

true

[near rock]

builds spring up sometimes, just how it goes

[glass mortar]

if anything live tier favored ho more

u will be back to never seeing a 5-6 buff (very very rare) as HO

kir has always regularly hit 5-6 buffs, even s1

not as often as this season obviously but yea

[near rock]

I need someone to find the new noggenfogger ultimate deluxe and not leak it

[vivid vessel]

Otsda

Are you one of these ho enjoyers

[near rock]

plz never call me that again

nah I prefer kir

more fun

[vivid vessel]

How should I call you

[near rock]

more skill expression

[vivid vessel]

Ot

I'm not typing the whole shit so

[near rock]

I can give u my number if ur down bad

[glass mortar]

ho has plenty of skill expression

me mashing my SS bind in stealth

[vivid vessel]

Buddy

You will be ots from now on

It's decided

[near rock]

aight sounds good

[vivid vessel]

Actually

[near rock]

but yeah I prefer kir

[vivid vessel]

Arvaa

[near rock]

HO is fun sometimes when I'm tryna chill

[vivid vessel]

Is kinda cool

Maybe you are arvaa

Too late

[vivid vessel]

You saying ho is for noobs wtf ?

[near rock]

what even is a tome of lvis

[vivid vessel]

If the ho players could read

[near rock]

nice name bro

[vivid vessel]

They would be so mad

[proper bear]

Idk what you guys are talking about but I get the vibe I should be mad

Fr though, is KiR burst low or am I just stepping on my own dong or something. I’ve been practicing KiR rot on the 5 pack dummies in dorn and only pulling like flat 8m dps vs 9-10 for HO. Maybe it’s gear optimization a bit too?

[torpid fiber]

!haste

[ornate heath]

A properly geared Outlaw's stat volume will look like Vers > Haste* > Crit > Mastery.

*But Haste has a **requirement ** because Adrenaline Rush scales your GCD based on haste, up to 25%.

The KIR build wants ~19% haste from rating, so it becomes 25% after Alacrity. 18% or 20% is close enough and not a problem. Don't play KIR with lower than 18% haste.

The HO build gets Take 'em by Surprise, so its haste requirement is technically ~9%., but it continues to want haste just for energy. You will likely optimize towards 14-18% haste, not a strict number, just sim.

You need to use Raidbots Top Gear to determine what haste pieces to use. You can also get ~4.2% haste from a flask. This can be equal or better than Vers flask if you need it for either build.

[glass mortar]

outlaw isnt a burst spec

we have the lowest "burst" in the game generally

[proper bear]

Ofc

[glass mortar]

doesnt matter if ur HO or kir

[proper bear]

Lemme rephrase

When does KiR pull paste HO? At the rip, or after a few mins?

Pull past

[glass mortar]

on average it just does more

on lower target counts its more similar tho

[viscid perch]

Kir doing more finisher dmg pretty much

[glass mortar]

idk about 5 it might not even be higher

[proper bear]

Word

Ty fam

[near rock]

@gaunt phoenix tier set value still the same as the last pic u posted?

[gaunt phoenix]

yea this #outlaw message

i guess fatebound will be slightly more now

reran it https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/pafqzYpc5A9iSVcmjbHrJH

[near rock]

ty

[daring oxide]

so

we use 2p+2p? @gaunt phoenix

[gaunt phoenix]

what no

[daring oxide]

dunno our 4p seems poop early on

for new tier

depends on ilvl

winning streak doesnt seem so bad right

for dispatch damage

[gaunt phoenix]

the current 4pc is so strong though

so you probably wont break it

[daring oxide]

yes also true

hmm

im just trying to plan when to break sets etc

[gaunt phoenix]

in the end you just sim sim

[daring oxide]

indeed

also i forgot to ask

but did you ever bring back the BF rule with deft for when u are at 3 targets or more

i remember you got rid of it at some point but i still kept doing it in actual gameplay especially since deft buff

rule where you consider number of targets + broadsides = cp deficit

[gaunt phoenix]

havent looked at it in a bit

[daring oxide]

hmm

do you think we can bring it back

i think it feels 100% worth

deft hits hard

but make it lower prio than SS in trickster if u have DS up

[gaunt phoenix]

maybe fatebound ?

[daring oxide]

fatebound surely yes worth

as high prio

if we played it

[gaunt phoenix]

trickster does too much BF damage and can proc unseen blade at any moment

kinda devalues deft a bit

[daring oxide]

i still strongly think

[gaunt phoenix]

especially a low target deft

[daring oxide]

it'll have a small gain though

maybe 1%

if we used deft at 3 targets to fill deficit CPs

[civic zephyr]

hey guys, how do i learn the new stuff before the new season? like what talents we are taking and what rotation to do? and whatever else that will help me prepare for a new season?

[daring oxide]

I can try anyways i'll edit the APL and put it back in and move the priority around

see what comes back best

its just something i noticed when looking at your latest 11.2 apl

was thinking hmm i still press BF at low targets

[gaunt phoenix]

it's the same kir but use loaded dice instead of sleight

[daring oxide]

but sim says not to

[civic zephyr]

ok ty!

[honest lotus]

!fuu

[ornate heath]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[glass mortar]

guys i have an admission

i have difficulty minmaxing WW monk because everytime i go into that discord i have my energy perma drained before i can even look through to find the tc stuff

why do they have so many channels

why is it like this

[desert tendon]

windboring

yea

[glass mortar]

i thought i saw that they changed SCK so u can cast during it again

[desert tendon]

rogue discord goat anyway

[glass mortar]

but then i go thru the 18 channels here

and dont see any pins about it

so im confused

but i dont know the proper channel to ask that in

then i give up and go play some runescape

[daring oxide]

@gaunt phoenix Do you know if deft manuvers is affected by this?

[gaunt phoenix]

its not

[daring oxide]

what the fukkkkkkkkkkkkkk

BLIZZARD HELLO

[near rock]

just play fatebound vai

pretend trickster doesn't exist

[daring oxide]

🙁

maybe fatebound might legit be good in m+

[desert tendon]

[daring oxide]

just high prio/st damage with fine cleave

it can't be that hard, Deft talented, apply surprising strikes to BF initial hit??????????

spell data update??

[glass mortar]

does it have high prio damage

[slate forge]

Is fatebound single/prio even considered good vs other specs?

[gaunt phoenix]

single yes, prio no

you lose prio when more targets are introduced

[glass mortar]

dont forget two of fatebounds nodes turn off from the main target

[daring oxide]

oh yes

forgot about that

[glass mortar]

anytime u add targets around

[daring oxide]

so dumb

[glass mortar]

it doesnt even do prio

🙂

[daring oxide]

oh well

Should i send a bugfix report

or does that usually go into the bin

[slate forge]

For rogues straight to the bin

[daring oxide]

Spell Data bug, Surprising Strikes does not buff Deft talented BF hit when generating CP

[covert kestrel]

half the discords are like this, half are like a single channel for everything. both fucking suck

why cant they just be normal like RH

[glass mortar]

lul gl with that im pretty sure like half our modifiers to abilities that generate combo points dont work on deft

probably cause bf does not generate combo points a talent just makes it also give them

[daring oxide]

what else doesn't work with deft?

[glass mortar]

does the crit damage on builders work on deft

[daring oxide]

you mean Deadly Precision?

and lethality

probs not

[gaunt phoenix]

now that tuning is probably over I need to post a full summary, but this will do for now:

1. our general changes are just new killing spree and new tier. on patch day, nothing with builds or rotation is really changing. only when we get new tier sets
2. fatebound will be really good at 1 target, up to 10% ahead of trickster, so it will be used on some raid bosses

• fatebound has different vanish rules than trickster, you try to hold vanish for when RP or Supercharger becomes active. also it uses killing spree

3. trickster will be used in aoe/keys, but as of yesterday fatebound is "possible" to use, it's similar in dungeonslice but only because it's so very far ahead at 1 target, it's still terrible in real aoe
4. after we lose the current tier, HO is rather behind, you will play the same KIR but with loaded dice instead of sleight

rotation stuff:

• loaded dice means you roll with 0 buffs, you roll with 1-2 buffs and loaded dice is active, and you roll once immediately after KIR. there is no wacky KIR minmax it seems
• with new tier, trickster tries to hold vanish until after double coup every time, unless capped or you need to use for AR
• killing spree can be canceled with a finisher after it generates you to 7cp, it is more or less the same dps as letting it finish. and it (subjectively) feels better
• try to use deft maneuvers only at low CPs (was kind of already a thing but didnt talk about it much)
• as KIR you will still prioritize SS when unseen blade is guaranteed from the weakaura
• with new tier, fatebound will open with ghostly strike from stealth instead of adrenaline rush. this bypasses a bug where adrenaline rush from stealth does not proc double jeopardy on itself

that's kind of it unless I forgor something

[daring oxide]

Sounds good thank you

[vivid vessel]

Bro said high prio

[daring oxide]

i forgot about the thingy

ok

also if u think about it...

obv a meme

deft is prio 🙂

[vivid vessel]

Vurai

[daring oxide]

sorry

[vivid vessel]

Fb is -20% st

In aoe

[daring oxide]

i know

weran reminded me

about those stupid things

i haven't played FB much for months

so kinda forgot

[covert kestrel]

"holding vanish until double coup" in terms of like we are able to do our subt window and then immediately spend our double coup for cdr?

[vivid vessel]

It's like offensive how bad it is

[daring oxide]

it really is offensive

its like they want to force trickster in M+

or aoe situations

[vivid vessel]

The opposite

[daring oxide]

for 'diversity'

[gaunt phoenix]

No you use double coup to get >10 flawless form stacks and then try to vanish within a few seconds later

[vivid vessel]

Double coup before for the stacks of whatever the fuck the name is

[daring oxide]

flawless form

FF

Fuck Frenzy

[gaunt phoenix]

fuck ferals

[daring oxide]

that too

[vivid vessel]

Ferals are our friends guys..

[gaunt phoenix]

fuck faugvoker

[glass mortar]

apparently aug is back next season

and its cursed for them

[gaunt phoenix]

ya you can stop typing

dont want to hear it !

[covert kestrel]

got it

[glass mortar]

they have two viable builds and they have polar opposite stat distributions iirc

so they get to suffer for it at least

heck aug

[civic zephyr]

do you do coachings?

[gaunt phoenix]

i dont

[civic zephyr]

ah ok, if you got any recommendations from someone who does please let me know!

[gaunt phoenix]

guy does

[civic zephyr]

is that their discord name?

[dim widget]

ForeverGuy

and yes you find him in this disc

[civic zephyr]

tyty

[gaunt phoenix]

you don't know the wowhead writer and multispec freakazoid ForeverGuy?

[vapid sundial]

thats so bad

wtf

[covert kestrel]

outlaw just kinda be one of those specs you gotta practice tho, get the muscle memory up to speed and decision making on the 0.8s gcd

[dim widget]

you forgot TC brainiac and 3 Time Champion

[torpid fiber]

Tbf I get the idea there

[civic zephyr]

haha i dont, i mainly focused on sin rogue this season, by the time i got into outlaw the game was kinda dying

[civic zephyr]

theres just some bad habits that i think i need to fix

[torpid fiber]

But also I think people going off-topic briefly in spec channels here acts as an important pressure release valve

[desert tendon]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1072566287638728786/1400479831447044368/cmi9h19tj6gf1.png?ex=688cc9fb&is=688b787b&hm=b22f8a4cbf40ffbd4f9253e9dbb94ee7bcfe346f2914b64fc05038a168585ee8&

i liked this way of showing

[dim widget]

dam thats cool stats ye

well cool way to show i mean

the yellow keypoints are a bit depressing

[covert kestrel]

https://tenor.com/view/dozens-of-us-there-are-dozens-of-us-dozens-arrested-development-arrested-development-dozens-gif-18162954729757007693

[hybrid crown]

This chart doesn't show how fun outlaw is

It's the best one

[white marten]

Holy shit bois. We’re gonna ABSOLUTELY fk this coming season!

[near rock]

TRUE

outlaw to the MOON BABY SHEEESH

the greatest and most powerful spec ever created

[white marten]

Not thrilled about having to play 1fth but it could be worse

Actually it is worse, we have dawnbreaker as a dungeon

[rotund pulsar]

Dawnbreaker 😎

[white marten]

Bro i hate any dungeon that gives you a reason to take you out of stealth

although that may be a mechanic in itself 🤣

Then you sit there, watching your ADR tick away… 🥲

[lone spear]

man this mage player still yapping?

[white marten]

Its not about what my tag says.

[lone spear]

you gotta come back man

[white marten]

Its about where im active the most

[lone spear]

we got buffed

its our time for sure

[proven ocean]

KS buffs are weird idk why no solving the main issue

[white marten]

Bro its our time right now

[proven ocean]

Also st still gonna be low

[glass mortar]

its very comical to me that ks has been buffed almost every patch note this ptr cycle

[white marten]

But AoE gonna be sooo good

[glass mortar]

did u guys just get the math hilariously wrong

whats goin on over there

[proven ocean]

Idk why assa is allowed to have higher st than outlaw

Doesnt make sense to me

[glass mortar]

also still not a loss to cancel it

[proven ocean]

Ppl thinking assa has low st in m+ throws me off everytime

[white marten]

Bleed build has pretty low ST

[proven ocean]

Noob build

Dont call it bleedbuild

[gaunt phoenix]

zero !

[white marten]

Hybrid build is not exactly THAT much better either

[proven ocean]

sooo!

Solo!*

[gaunt phoenix]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-water-gif-19744162

[proven ocean]

sry eating hogtog

Hotdog

https://tenor.com/view/cat-water-gif-19744162

[gaunt phoenix]

hogdog

[white marten]

Cat dog

[proven ocean]

Pedro i will only compare both specs on their best builds

And sin has very good st

[daring oxide]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-water-gif-19744162

ya

[proven ocean]

Ppl that play subterfuge are just playing it cuz its ez

[daring oxide]

ive seen zeross do absurd ST on bosses in Rookery

[glass mortar]

people think sin st is bad because they play with sin playing bleed build in low keys

[daring oxide]

in his pushes

[glass mortar]

then u get to a boss with no cds up and kill it in like 90 seconds and only get a kingsbane the whole boss

of course it looks bad

[proven ocean]

Weran

I top dps all the time

Especially with adds i do giga dam

[white marten]

Giga dam? 🤔 but are you even 99 str in osrs?

[proven ocean]

Iam yes

[white marten]

Ah okay

[proven ocean]

And an inferno cape owner

[white marten]

I didnt ask you to flex that hard 🙄

[proven ocean]

Game is easier to get into than wow tho thats for sure

[proven ocean]

Took me a month of 16hrs a day practice to nuke it hard in 2 days

I did have ocassional attempts beforehand tho

[white marten]

I played a bit of osrs. The raiding looks fun

Those ppl know what they’re doing and what their fans like. Unlike Blizz

[proven ocean]

I think im good at the game now but not at a high level yet

[white marten]

Gonna so another 8 hr nmz run later 😏

[proven ocean]

Game is good now bunch of nice updates

Nah

Dont

New crab method

[white marten]

O:

[proven ocean]

10 min afk cannot die (it does 1 dmg max hit)

But hard to get hit like once every 5-10 min

So dont dharock 1 ho

Hp

Ye just 10 min click then 10 min again

No prayers no risk no crashing

10000 ppl on same crab

It has infinite hp

[white marten]

What crab is that?

[vivid vessel]

@gaunt phoenix did you see btw

its crazy

they really want to force both specs to play fatebound without fixing the fb issues

[glass mortar]

well fatebound has no issues for outlaw tho

[gaunt phoenix]

[vivid vessel]

blizzard will just throw buffs at everything

[glass mortar]

its all in ur head (its all on the meter)

[vivid vessel]

Ok bro

[glass mortar]

[daring oxide]

weran are you foreverguy

[vivid vessel]

No issue but me when I lose 20% prio damage with any type of random add spawning

Ain't no weae

[desert tendon]

Ppl thinking assa has low st in m+ throws me off everytime

[gaunt phoenix]

weaeran

[glass mortar]

idk man i think its kinda cool u get to pick between two builds that dslice identically but one is ahead like 18% in st and one is ahead like 10% in aoe

[vivid vessel]

i mean even this season in s2

[glass mortar]

its a fun tradeoff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[desert tendon]

weaerean

[vivid vessel]

it did outlaw st wiht zero build

and obviously if you bring funnel well

[desert tendon]

what s your point zac?

outlaw is a dead spec

[vivid vessel]

idk i dont have any rn

[desert tendon]

[vivid vessel]

just saying words

[glass mortar]

ur a dead spec

[desert tendon]

ok let s say word

[glass mortar]

zac did u like our new buffs

[desert tendon]

i start

[glass mortar]

we got buffed

i wasnt here when u saw the buffs

!

more boofs

[desert tendon]

hyppopotomonstrosesquipedaliophobia

your turn

[glass mortar]

zac must be very happy

[vivid vessel]

ok i would be fine with it if the st build was actually ahead in st

( iwouldnt)

[proven ocean]

im prob gonna send some ptr keys tonight

not really happy with how they're treating rogue really

they buffed every other class 10x more

[covert heart]

He is def happy, he is changing his video title to outlaw is saved!! Or is outlaw broken?!?!

[proven ocean]

and we are just falling behind even with the constant buffs

[proven ocean]

hes playing bleed build

its rly bad and not ideal in real keys

especially in floodgates

prob testing

[desert tendon]

hes playing bleed build
its rly bad and not ideal in real keys
especially in floodgates
prob testing

[covert heart]

We all are excited to be fatebound gamers, especially @vivid vessel

[desert tendon]

@vivid vessel thought?

[vivid vessel]

you say this cause you know i wouldnt be happy right

[desert tendon]

but zac they reworked ks!

[glass mortar]

yes

[covert heart]

But you are happy so I am confused

[desert tendon]

now you can control your char!

well you still cant play

[glass mortar]

its very funny to me how they keep managing to buff us in a way that zac will complain about

[desert tendon]

BUT YOU CANNOT DIE!

[daring oxide]

@vivid vessel I dont think sub will be better than outlaw on NexusKing btw

[desert tendon]

btw guys

[glass mortar]

i think at this point blizzard is just trying to keep the meme alive

[desert tendon]

did they leave the dr part of old ks or nah?

[vivid vessel]

ok but its obvious no?

[daring oxide]

outlaw doesn't even need to play PC

[covert heart]

They want Zac to be a doomer for the culture

[glass mortar]

yes

[vivid vessel]

like am i delusional

[glass mortar]

they buff us the same way each time

well

[vivid vessel]

yes ok ty

[glass mortar]

idk i'll tell u after i play the new patch

maybe u are but it all sounds pretty bad to me

just making our profile worse

hamfisting new kspree into every build

how do u introduce a new ability then need to buff it by like 420% over 6 patches

[proven ocean]

well

weran

[glass mortar]

who did the math on this 1

[proven ocean]

idk if ur looking deeply into the patch notes

but

if you analyse every buff

[vivid vessel]

it has downtime damage amp and every timer line up with 1min30 cds

[proven ocean]

they are nerfing all rogue specs lol

[glass mortar]

especially when its a new ability that was an old ability

[proven ocean]

because they are overbuffing everything else

except us

[vivid vessel]

going to plat and nuking ads > coming back to damage amp

[proven ocean]

we're getting the least amount of buffs every single time

and we just fall behind even with the occassional 3-4% buffs

which dont mean anything btw

3% is like

an embellishment and a half

legit does nothing

meanwhile arcane gets a whole tier set overhaul where they just change everything to be extremely good in every situation somehow like its intentional redesign to make arcane very op

[ivory canopy]

so to ressume guys , outlaw is ggoing to be playable in m+

?

[gaunt phoenix]

yeh

[glass mortar]

everything in the game is playable in m+

[daring oxide]

hmm ok i guess if cds perfectly line up then yeah thats hard to compete with

[proven ocean]

more st buffs to all specs except sub idk sub needs a rework it doesnt need buffs

sub is just bad design in m+, my take is never tune sub for M+ its useless

because the cd design is just so bad

its unplayable in real keys

[daring oxide]

i didn't think this would be 1min 30 apart

[vivid vessel]

it is unless you early push

which knowing blizzard tuning it should be normal

and you will stop dps

otherwise

[white marten]

So its gonna be forever, or its gonna go down in flames!

You can tell me when its over

If the high was worth the pain

[daring oxide]

ah fuck stop dps xd

[white marten]

Top kicks is what i strive for

[vivid vessel]

you will 100%

mark my words

[desert tendon]

you will 100%
mark his words

[daring oxide]

ive marked them

so yeah i guess Zac you 100% crafting dagger?

[covert kestrel]

Unless they totally redid fatebound he was always gonna be dagger first

[quaint mauve]

zac isn’t an outlaw player

i saw him chatting in sin chat

[glass mortar]

he already said hes giving up on ever playing outlaw on prog

game isnt designed for that (for him)

so not surprising

its not like real m+ pushing happens till raid prog is over anyway

plus this is the last season of the expac so lord knows we r gunna have 2-3 mini patches of more power scaling to keep people playing until next expac

[covert kestrel]

Me n my boys bout to push some +7s week 1 just you wait

[fathom holly]

1000% they will turboboost again

which makes pushing until then kinda useless

[vivid vessel]

Ye

I'm crafting dagger anyway

But this iteration of outlaw isn't good for me for raid prog

It encent you to greed uptime way too much

Like way too much

And I cannot not do it

I'm addicted

It's fine for m+

But it's not fine for raid prog

I don't like how it makes me a worse player instantly cause of that

I will never willingly do mechanics

Unless someone have like a knife at my bass

Balls

While on sub and assa it's chill

Just afk a few seconds bro

[white marten]

Just roll mage bro

And relax for the rest of raid prog

[agile orchid]

Mages usually get assigned mechanics

I hate doing mechanics

[near rock]

bro just wants to hit a target dummy for 5 minutes

[agile orchid]

[wintry solar]

I was able to consume 600mg of caffeine and immediately fall asleep

Fuck this stupid baka life. I wanna be up forever.

[glass mortar]

if you have resistence to caffiene u can often fall asleep even while consuming alot of it

it does mess with ur sleep cycle tho

like prevent you from getting the best REM sleep while ur asleep

[old gull]

That much gonna mess with your heart eventually my boy

[vivid vessel]

ye example gallywix

[zinc briar]

So Rogue gonna be subt in raid?

[vestal notch]

when isnt it

[glass mortar]

if its not a sub tier, then its a sin tier

either way daggers wont hurt

🫡

zac do i start delvin on my evoker or do i catch my survival hunter back up

both r like 650 ilvl trash gear

[willow portal]

is assa fun?

[daring oxide]

I know what you mean, I guess I'm willing to drop uptime for a bit and I'll end up doing things like delaying ADR/Vanish etc or holding them a bit but yeah prio mechanics for sure

i just love grapple for things though

[strong halo]

i know your outlaw main... but like does it make sense to prog as Sub then?

prog is like different imo unique window

[harsh forge]

no

[midnight granite]

I'm prog as outlaw

Who cares unless you're top 50

Wr

[near rock]

agreed

[covert heart]

I am def prog as outlaw for the culture

Plus i only have to out dps like 4 other people who play outlaw to parse well

[gaunt phoenix]

i suspect outlaw in raid will feel pretty normal now

like this tier, good on some bosses, not trolling on st

should be fine

[glass mortar]

i feel like any boss thats a mix of st and aoe should just feel worse but i hope it doesnt

having trickster do the same ST as fatebound on live was pretty good for that

[covert kestrel]

adhd coded

[vivid vessel]

I don't understand the question

[strong halo]

Would you consider proggin as Sub given the current bosses

also PTR changes arent live yet

[vivid vessel]

I said I would prog as sub already

[strong halo]

i missed this mb

[vivid vessel]

Outlaw isn't a real spec in raid I don't wanna bother too much

But it's mostly cause of daggers

[wintry solar]

naw

cant be

[vivid vessel]

I will up or craft a dagger for main hand since if you don't you lock yourself out of assa and sub which is way worse than locking yourself out of outlaw

So I won't have a way to up a main hand for outlaw

[slate forge]

Do we get a spark week 1 to then craft week 2 with raid?

[civic void]

Genuinely hope they consider making outlaw able to have daggers in mh, feels silly to not be able to flex into it

[gaunt phoenix]

Never happen

[glass mortar]

ye dont think that will ever happen

[gaunt phoenix]

Would be nice for crafting

[covert kestrel]

when do the first dagger/agi mh drop from raid this upcoming tier

[civic void]

Hope they prove you both wrong but ye, not hopeful about that

[glass mortar]

ive heard basically every weapon type is on the first 3 bosses

so i imagine from one of those 3

[latent oak]

kind of annoying that the vers haste mainhand comes from last boss

[glass mortar]

stats on weapon r w/e tho

[gaunt phoenix]

2nd boss has dagger

[latent oak]

i guess

[glass mortar]

its nice having early boss weapons

[covert kestrel]

3rd boss fist

[vivid vessel]

Ye for lore reasons you can't play the spec In raid gg

Feels good

[glass mortar]

i mean only if ur at the level where the limitation of what weapon type u craft week 1 limits ur specs prog

[gaunt phoenix]

3rd boss also has omegabis neck

[glass mortar]

which is not a group of players i think they should be actively designing major game points around

but its not a bad idea i just dont think they care

[hot olive]

Any haste vers ring?

[glass mortar]

or they want the friction between some specs for some classes despite other classes getting to use 1 weapon for every spec they can ever play (casters xd)

[hot olive]

In raid?

[latent oak]

nope

no vers rings in raid

[vivid vessel]

Ok well what is the positive of that rule tho

Other than fuck over some people

[glass mortar]

did i say there was one

[vivid vessel]

Ye so

Idk

[glass mortar]

they like friction in places

even if it doesnt have upsides other then u dont play a spec due to weapon type

maybe they see that as an upside idk

[vivid vessel]

Also I don't think only people like me are limited

[gaunt phoenix]

We prolly just craft rings for embellish

[vivid vessel]

By the time I got to end boss I still had not upped all my slots so I optimally shouldn't upgrade my offhand

[gaunt phoenix]

Theres like 1 haste vers ring and no crit vers rings i think

[vivid vessel]

So it definitely would impact everyone till like 1month + of raid

At the very least

[glass mortar]

well wdym

id just up another mh probably or craft one

why do i care if one slot is behind due to it i will have full omegabis before i even touch an endboss

or close to it

majority of players fall into that catagory

[latent oak]

these are the rings

[glass mortar]

they probably see it like covenants (At the start, when they were wrong btw) where they like the friction it creates of "locking people" into a role if they wanna uber min max it

or they just love casters and hate most melee

up2u

[vivid vessel]

Well you are wasting crests on your main spec then

So idk

[glass mortar]

sure

and wasting 1 slots worth of crests is irrelevant to people like me

[gaunt phoenix]

Jesus

Garbage !

[glass mortar]

is there any boe ring

[wintry solar]

haste mastery specs feasting

[vestal notch]

75% of rings have mastery lmfao

[gaunt phoenix]

Mastery on 6/8 rings

[latent oak]

allegedly there is

[gaunt phoenix]

[glass mortar]

boe ring will save us\

who will buy the crit vers boe rings

surely nobody but outlaw players

[latent oak]

someone said that it drops like the classic wow boes

with a prefix and a suffix

[wintry solar]

im gonna pvp just enough until conquest ring

[bronze robin]

resto shams are all billionaires and will drive the price up confirmed

[fossil pagoda]

how much is HO behind in 11.2 ?

compared to KIR

[cinder relic]

5%ish

[fossil pagoda]

uff

[gaunt phoenix]

~4% ST
~6% Dslice
~10% pure aoe

[wintry solar]

is that st or aoe

ty solo

[fossil pagoda]

ty

but 5% is meh

[vivid vessel]

There is one?

[wintry solar]

10% aoe is rough though

[gaunt phoenix]

Boes are random stats now i thought

Gamba

[vivid vessel]

It's been that way litteraly every tier

[vivid vessel]

Qh

[glass mortar]

idk i heard it from thebox

[vivid vessel]

[glass mortar]

if hes lying then we ban him

easy?

[glass mortar]

they r which is giga for us

like who else is going to be nabbing crit/vers boes

i only pray the stat ratios are also offset or randomized and not 50/50

[vivid vessel]

Nah ye I remember now

Something about random stats bors

Boes

[glass mortar]

yup

[gaunt phoenix]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/949758831196524615/1398362385592488068/image.png?ex=688c5635&is=688b04b5&hm=1bfc9160cc824629304c7aa9b027734bdcd27a0d3c957b888af0eae11d02639a&

They are weighted

[glass mortar]

everyone in my guild was malding and im just like 👏👏

HUGE

[vivid vessel]

Ye but the price is divided.tho

Like it will cost more

Cause it's rarer

Idk

[glass mortar]

why is it rarer

[vestal notch]

its not rarer

[gaunt phoenix]

Idk what the ring weight is

[glass mortar]

r u assuming the stat distrubition drop chance is impacted by how many people can use it?

[vestal notch]

if it has the same drop rate

[glass mortar]

why would there be less vers/crit boes dropping

[vivid vessel]

Because your stat is rare

[glass mortar]

wat

[vestal notch]

it will be cheaper bc same suply, less demand

im assuming vers crit has same drop rate as haste mast

[glass mortar]

our stat is rare as in not in demand

why would it be rare to drop on the boes

do u think the boes stats r influenced by ur raiders stat weights

🤔

[vestal notch]

i expect hast mast items to be xpensive af

[vivid vessel]

Because instead of having 1/9 chance of dropping your boe now you have 1/9 chance / number of stat combination

So it's rarer

[glass mortar]

sure but thats for everyone

[vestal notch]

its rarer compared to live, not rarer compared to any other s3 combination

[proven ocean]

BoE change is good unironically btw

[glass mortar]

do u think the price of boes across the board is just going to skyrocket?

[proven ocean]

i like it alot

[vestal notch]

prices have to be compared in their own context

[glass mortar]

everyones prefered stat combo is rarer

[proven ocean]

no no

[glass mortar]

ours is the most unused tho

[proven ocean]

opposite

cuz

like

[wintry solar]

an exaggeration but okay

[proven ocean]

weran

[glass mortar]

u dont

zeross im trying to convince zac

[vapid sundial]

He's saying it may be artificially weighted by blizz I think

[glass mortar]

u dont need to explain to me

[proven ocean]

its very rare for a class that needs that specific combo

[glass mortar]

the concept im trying to get zac to get

[vestal notch]

Price will be dependant on stat conbinations

[proven ocean]

ye but

its just a fact

its just better

[glass mortar]

i mean thats just conspiracy

[proven ocean]

cheaper even tho its rarer

[glass mortar]

obviously they could do that but i dont think they will

[vestal notch]

haste mast will be more expensive than vers crit

[vapid sundial]

No one but us will want it

Really

Maybe resto sham

[latent oak]

brew too

[proven ocean]

nah healers dont buy boe's

neither do tanks

which is nice

so

ye

its good for us

BoEs are good if they have big variety

thats the best part of it

but

keep that in mind

1 bad thing about that BoE thing is that

[vapid sundial]

Healer I know likes to buy boes

And raids high

[proven ocean]

our stats being uncommon isnt a good thing

[vapid sundial]

But Idk

[proven ocean]

weran

listen to this

very carefully ok

cuz

ppl can catalyst that piece

so if our piece is the "cheapest"

it wont really be the "cheapest"

because it'll be a catalyst dump piece

[vivid vessel]

No I think it will be the exact same

[vapid sundial]

No way

Ur smoking Crack

[vivid vessel]

Because the demand for each boe is lower but it's also rarer

[vapid sundial]

For sure

[proven ocean]

nah

prices wont go higher

it'll stay same

[vivid vessel]

Well for the vers boes the demand will outweighs the rarity so we probably gain

[proven ocean]

but

[vivid vessel]

But in general

[hidden lantern]

Rogue buffs live on ptr yet?

[vivid vessel]

It doesn't change the prices at all

[proven ocean]

if they make boEs more common then it'll be cheaper

[vestal notch]

if the price of it raises bc of catalyst to a point its the same, then people will either buy the stats they want (same price) or buy other ones to catalyst, lowering the price

[glass mortar]

i think it should make our prices lower

[proven ocean]

cuz the way boe's work this season (as a guy who spent over 10m on boe's this season)

[vivid vessel]

But ye just for us cause it's vers the prices might be lower

[vapid sundial]

If less ppl are buying the price goes down

[vivid vessel]

But in general it wont

[glass mortar]

well thats what i said

[vivid vessel]

Like for everyone else

[glass mortar]

yes

[vapid sundial]

And I doubt people are going to be buying cata pieces early on

[glass mortar]

they get screwed by it

which is even better

[proven ocean]

no matter how complex those stats will be they wont be more expensive cuz they already are TOO expensive

[glass mortar]

😏

[latent oak]

price will go up for the haste mast pieces

[vapid sundial]

Yes

[vivid vessel]

Ye maybe

[vapid sundial]

Crit mast haste mast

Will be expensive

But things with vers?

Doubtful

[proven ocean]

nah ryker prices will be the same

only thing is that it could be lower

thats about it

[vapid sundial]

I doubt it

[proven ocean]

cuz the prices are rly high this season

idk if u checked

but

[vivid vessel]

It's not

[vapid sundial]

People are fiends

[proven ocean]

each piece was minimum 4-6m

for a long time

very very long time

and they never lasted that long

[hybrid crown]

Boes were stupid rare this season

[vapid sundial]

Well

[vestal notch]

i meant vers crit will be cheaper relative to haste mast, not to current prices

[vapid sundial]

EU and na always diff prices

Idk what it's like rn

In na

Since gold EU is worth less than na

[proven ocean]

idk about NA didnt see the prices there afaik they were the same ryker

cuz the way they were designed to drop

they aren't farmable

only specific mobs drop it

[gaunt phoenix]

No longer eating cats i see

[proven ocean]

and once a week

https://tenor.com/view/smiling-cat-happy-cat-smile-gif-3555983607747631247

[vapid sundial]

Yah Idk. Prices are normally always diff

And are based around the token

[hybrid crown]

That nerf to boe drops was such bs

[proven ocean]

ryker this season the prices were insanely high

like no cappi

i paid ALOT

over gold cap

[vapid sundial]

Ye I get that

[proven ocean]

im 100% sure it wont be higher

[vapid sundial]

I'm just syaing probably a bit cheaper na

[proven ocean]

cuz it was already too much

[vapid sundial]

And not saying it'll be higher than rn

[proven ocean]

maybe idk

[vapid sundial]

I mean pieces will have different prices via stat

I'm not arguing vs this season

Crit vers will be cheaper than any other combo

[proven ocean]

ye ik ik

but like

it just wont be more expensive that this season thats just a good thing imo but

[glass mortar]

haste mastery will probably be the priciest one

or haste crit maybe tbh

[proven ocean]

idk if its even a good thing because

[glass mortar]

alot of people r edging into mastery dr now a day

[vapid sundial]

Both prob

[proven ocean]

it was just rly bad

and it wont be any worse

cuz it was already giga bad

but btw

stat thing is abit fake early on

because ppl buy for ilvl

[latent oak]

u werent at goldcap per item were u

[proven ocean]

no like

3-5m

per piece

[latent oak]

can always go higher

[proven ocean]

i bought all pieces twice

(base + avoidance)

except neck

i bought once only

avoidance version of it

ye neck was the most expensive one

cuz it was crit mastery

and it works on all classes

[latent oak]

no reason they cant be more expensive tho

[proven ocean]

i think i paid like

4.5m mid season?

which is crazy high

[glass mortar]

i mean how expensive boes r in general will depend on a bunch of factors (drop rate, popularity of the season and token prices etc)

[latent oak]

ya 100%

[glass mortar]

but there will be a spectrum of costs for each boe now based on stats, and our stats should be the cheapest

thats what we r talking about

[proven ocean]

i dont think token prices were ever relevant

the prices of BoEs were 100% always based on how they drop

this season its from like 5 rares or something? per week

so u have x amount of chances

not farmable

at all

[glass mortar]

it influences it but thats usually the larger impact yes

[proven ocean]

which made them EXPENSIVE

[proven ocean]

honestly maybe even 0 impact

it was always based on how farmable it is

in SL for example

[glass mortar]

it is always based on how farmable it is

[proven ocean]

all BoEs were dirt cheap

[glass mortar]

but token prices also impact

multiple things can be true at once

[proven ocean]

i think thats you overthinking it

[latent oak]

next season its from lieutenants aswell according to squishei

[proven ocean]

like most seasons in wow

boEs were super cheap

until recently

[latent oak]

i think token value is a function of the value of gold rather than the other way around right?

[proven ocean]

when they added bad design of like

no trash for pugs to farm or like

specific mobs only

[glass mortar]

yes

[proven ocean]

very bad tbh

[glass mortar]

token value is an indicator of gold in the game

[tight kernel]

Do we KS with FB now?

[proven ocean]

ngl tho

[glass mortar]

so maybe its more appropriate to say that everything impacts token value and you can infer the cost range of boes based on token prices

[tight kernel]

I havent tried any ptr shenanigans yet

[glass mortar]

rather then tokens impact boe prices directly

[proven ocean]

its just bad design by blizzard to make BOEs rare and just scuff out the market for no reason

[gaunt phoenix]

Ye

[latent oak]

ya this is what i meant

[tight kernel]

Oh sick

[latent oak]

love some pendantry

[proven ocean]

look at this btw

BoE 1.3m

i guarantee you

in SL

week 1 it wasnt even that high

[glass mortar]

ross

[red zinc]

ok

[proven ocean]

it was like

50k

end of season

if not less idk

i do remember tho

buying avoidance pieces for 150-200k a pop

was kinda nice

[proven ocean]

yes

[red zinc]

ok 😃 👍

[proven ocean]

Timmy
[meep]
— 8:25 PM
ok 😃 👍

[glass mortar]

nothing nvm

i was going to say u need to stop going off for 10 minutes overexplaining something everyone already agreed with u on

but its not like it matters thats 90% of the yapping in here

[proven ocean]

weran i think u lost ur yapping touch

[glass mortar]

nobody thinks that the drop rate of boes isnt 99% of the factor in their pricing

[proven ocean]

we always argued about the same thing for hours for no reason

[glass mortar]

thats all im saying

ya and look where thats ended us

[proven ocean]

i expected more...

weran ..

[red zinc]

ok 😃 👍

[glass mortar]

ross...

[midnight granite]

You guys gonna get a room and make up?

[frail veldt]

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/1md7h0f/which_specs_needs_rework_the_most/

thoughts?

[glass mortar]

https://tenor.com/view/bricks-gif-6525378798534810671

[glass mortar]

not surprising given the general perception of rogues by the game community

[proven ocean]

crazy how eeveryone thinks of rogue all the time

[glass mortar]

and i wouldnt be surprised if most casual rogues also feel this way

[proven ocean]

like

[glass mortar]

ye we do come up like everytime this subject is brought up

[proven ocean]

everyone knows rogue needs a rework

[frail veldt]

cuz rogue is very poorly designed compared to the rest of the classes

[proven ocean]

i keep saying this idk why they keep buffing sub rogue lol

if it does good in raid leave it

it'll never do good in M+ cuz of it's design

[frail veldt]

rogue is the most sticky taped together class lol

[midnight granite]

S1 df was sub rogue

For keys

[proven ocean]

casualaddict didnt believe me when i said it

current sub

[vestal notch]

that was a different sub rogue

[proven ocean]

will never be good

unless they giga overbuff it

[frail veldt]

I thikn assa is almost well desgined

but it has WAAAAY too many buffs/debuffs

[proven ocean]

it just has a flawed design for high m+ (sub rogue)

[frail veldt]

and minor interactions

[vestal notch]

assa is well designed

[frail veldt]

outlaw and sub are both so broken

[proven ocean]

sub rogue always does x amount of dps

[frail veldt]

idk about "well"

[proven ocean]

sin can do better in higher keys