yeah of its buff
#outlaw
cinder relic
gaunt phoenix
yea adrenaline rush doesnt tick down during subterfuge, so while there are some rules to flex vanish usage, sometimes you have to vanish immediately if AR is about to expire so you dont lose it
gaunt phoenix
yea its fine
sullen wyvern
ty
tender wedge
cloak just got buffed again
gaunt phoenix
huge
torpid fiber
What are they doing with the tank cloak lmao
frank finch
tender wedge
dis proportionate buff to outlaw, love it
toxic laurel
vers stonks
daring yoke
Hey guys. For 11.2, whats the difference in playstyle/buttons for trickster m+ kir vs fatebound raid kir? Assuming kir is the way to go for both builds
gaunt phoenix
Do we have sims yet for 8 target with new tuning or
yea you gain 2% dmg
at 8 target
grim spear
fb basically doesnt have to care about anything, while trick still has to pay attention to ub eb coup thing
gaunt phoenix
fatebound just has different vanish rules, you try not to vanish unless ruthless precision or supercharger becomes active
frail veldt
yeah tbh fatebound vanish rules are way more tedious
also you only bte with rp up when outside of stealth right?
gaunt phoenix
yea you try not to send a raw bte unless rp is active
tho idk how much that matters recently
daring yoke
Ah i see perfect thanks. I hope it doesnt messes up my brain/muscle memory much lol
haughty wigeon
https://www.wowhead.com/news/tank-cloak-nerfed-more-reshii-wraps-artifact-cloak-...
Cool
gaunt phoenix
probably matters more because dispatch flips coins betterer
pliant wave
Is Outlaw with showing significantly higher damage contribution from the Artifact Cloak compared to other specs?
with high Haste and Versatility
serene heath
So chat are we happy or still sad
tender wedge
this is outlaw we always sad
verbal pike
this is outlaw we always sad
More or less sad than usual though
tender wedge
less sad, but the sub and assa changes were both better
so we're happy but there's a lot more room for further enhappyafying
i think one general positive is that some of the non-numerical changes they did for assass and sub addressed some specific concerns so it gives me confidence that whoever is watching does actually have a handle on the problems
what that means for future outlaw changes idk
worthy elm
How far ahead is KiR from ... non KiR
frank finch
like 5 %
vivid vessel
Solo
Can I still cancel ks
Ah ok I need to read pin
Bro this is shit
This tuning is wack man
Why did they buff fateboudn
Why did they nerf trickster bf
Why did they buff ks again
I'm so confused
tender wedge
brisk meadow
grim spear
bc they want us to play fb in raid and trick in keys
and they dont want us to cancel ks
thats the only way to make sense of it
vivid vessel
They don't understand outlaw
This is so bad
Everytime they buff fateboudn I lose hope
Everytime they nerf trickster outlaw is more shit
haughty wigeon
He’s starting
vivid vessel
You are clueless
haughty wigeon
Everyone duck in cover
vivid vessel
Ye cause they always buff us in the worse way possible
haughty wigeon
Cause last season number was bigger
vivid vessel
They buff ks just enough so it'd not worth to cancel
haughty wigeon
Like last tuning
vivid vessel
They nerf trickster AOE again
random stirrup
Guy is already fighting demons in sub
random stirrup
we gonna have infinite content
dim parrot
I agree with Zac on this one fam
vivid vessel
Idk how you can be happy about all this shit
haughty wigeon
Surprising
vivid vessel
Other than outlaw doing more damage
vivid vessel
Surprising
Try to understand instead of acting that way maybe
vivid vessel
Ye 
unreal drum
what he means is the gap between trickster and fatebound in aoe is getting considerably smaller so since they are also buffing fatebound if they keep going with this idea it will be FB for everything and thats boring
haughty wigeon
That’s not what he’s saying
vivid vessel
Fateboud is the worse shit ever
unreal drum
ohh
haughty wigeon
Fatebound is just ass
haughty wigeon
But will this push fatebound for everything? Probably not
frank finch
fb and trickster are now the same in 2t
vivid vessel
So ass
You don't wanna be playing fateboudn
Ever
If your best simming spec
Is fatebound
brisk meadow
I like the animation
vivid vessel
It's just over
haughty wigeon
Odds are it’s just the best In st only like always
brisk meadow
vivid vessel
Except everytime they do this
You have less of an option to play trickster
So you have to feel super shit to play trickster
And feel super shit when you play fateboudn
Also buffing ks just enough so you don't cancel is demonic I'm ngl
brisk meadow
Gotta appreciate the animators somehow
haughty wigeon
And anyone who plays a spec with a channel or
radiant steppe
Blizzard hates it when you cancel shit
we cancel rogue
haughty wigeon
You know that they do that for every channel that they find out it’s a gain to cancel it
cinder relic
You are clueless
Bi hourly zac meltdown 
frank finch
but the reshii wraps got buffed again !!!!!
vivid vessel
Litteraly just happy about number going up without thinking about any of the consequences
Could be an outlaw dev
cinder relic
Truth nuke
haughty wigeon
Don’t play outlaw
vivid vessel
I mean
brisk meadow
vivid vessel
He doesn't know 
vivid vessel
not even 1 (one)
brisk meadow
vivid vessel
Why do you link this
cinder relic
Why would I play the spec if it isnt fun?
vivid vessel
It's so useless when the thing it does is bring fatebound AOE on par to trickster aoe by making trickster AOE worse
Instead of fixing
Why fatebound
Is so useless
vivid vessel
Ye you are stupid haha
civic zephyr
Why do fk they nerf ww tier set
cause they dont like classes being fun
vivid vessel
How is this so hard to get I don't even understand
Me when outlaw get a 40% st buff but a 40% bf nerf and it's getting buffed in AOE 
vagrant saddle
zac, u have done a good amount of ptr keys. is losing current tier set dreadful or is it fine? feel wise not dmg
vivid vessel
Everytime they do these buffs without touching how fateboudn works I get balls cancer
vivid vessel
zac, u have done a good amount of ptr keys. is losing current tier set dreadful ...
Doesn't matter
I think you get locked into bad rng more tho
Where last tier outlaw could get out of it by rolling again and again
vagrant saddle
Everytime they do these buffs without touching how fateboudn works I get balls c...
i cant wait to get 4 set then never proc lucky coin entire fight
azure vortex
Remove fatebound for outlaw and balance only trickster easy fix no?
vivid vessel
Ye kinday point
When fatebound is such a bad damage profile
They did that with assa
Idk why we can't have the same
Instead of being forced into the worse damage profile In the game
hasty warren
Hi pirates
grim spear
I dont really care, both trick and fb are pretty boring
actually, all the hero talents have been a huge disappointment for me
haughty wigeon
Me when outlaw get a 40% st buff but a 40% bf nerf and it's getting buffed in AO...
I understand that nerfing bf but buffing st means that the spec will technically see a loss on its direct aoe viva bladeflurry
But at the same time when the spec needs more st buffs without making its aoe sky rocket out of control since face it bladeflurry is outlaws only source of aoe
There’s not much tuning knobs to do turn to buff the spec in the areas it needs to be buffed without snowballing aoe. While yes this makes fateblunder more stronger as well by directly touching trickster aoe while butting the cores spec st. I don’t believe this will make fatebound the default pick your your level of keys
They can’t exactly leave it to die either
quaint mauve
actually, all the hero talents have been a huge disappointment for me
rogue just has mid ones
haughty wigeon
They have to make an attempt tm to make fateblund competitive numbers wise
daring yoke
just realized pinned. is there a chance of Fatebound being as good as trickster in m+?
vivid vessel
I understand that nerfing bf but buffing st means that the spec will technically...
Ok but it doesn't do insane AOE tho, it does less AOE than it does on live by far
haughty wigeon
Lmao probs not
cinder relic
Might be better on some raid encounters
hasty warren
I dont really care, both trick and fb are pretty boring
at least u have do things with trikster
vivid vessel
And my issue is mostly fb vs trickster here tbf
haughty wigeon
Ok but it doesn't do insane AOE tho, it does less AOE than it does on live by fa...
Okay it can still snowball out of control if they buff st only
haughty wigeon
Man you are just hard to talk to
daring yoke
But its less bad now
how much of a less bad now in m+, any ballpark figures?
vivid vessel
how much of a less bad now in m+, any ballpark figures?
You don't play fatebound in kesy
You lose 20% prio damage
In aoe
balmy topaz
This buff
vivid vessel
That's not a real thing
vivid vessel
If I ever see one mf willingly step into a dungeon with fatebound
That guy is inting
cinder relic
Because they dont want to buff aoe
hasty warren
is it 3.5% aura buff or only for fb ?
balmy topaz
Also I presume now we don’t cancel Ks
haughty wigeon
Okay Zac can you say honestly that you can’t do high keys without fatebound with current tuning rn?
river spoke
vivid vessel
I can probably do r1 keys still with this tuning idc
haughty wigeon
But it’s not strong enough to be used in high keys rn
And if you can do the same with trickster
Then just play trickster?
vivid vessel
Nah the aoe vs st thing with trickster is for raid to me
Fatebound won't be played in keys
My issue is 2 things
hasty warren
prio damage is way more important than aoe
vivid vessel
Our st tuning is related to the best st build we have in raid
haughty wigeon
prio damage is way more important than aoe
Okay but he said it won’t be played in keys
So irrelevant rn
vivid vessel
So if trickster is so behind In st well it will stay behind
And
In any encounter
Where you will be like
Ok but
If I play trickster I lose 6% st
haughty wigeon
vivid vessel
But at least I don't get balls cancer when adds spawns
Or you do the other thing
Where you do 0 AOE, and when add spawns you suddenly do tank damage to boss
(one other spec that does this shit btw please)
Like for assa blizzard understood no?
hasty warren
do we still have the bug with adr pulling with the coin drop ?
vivid vessel
They keep fatebound dead
Good
Just stay dead or ?
I would rather how it is this season on live
Fb is 1% ahead or some shit
Good
You still get to play it
On fights where it's actually good
Pure st
haughty wigeon
Okay
vivid vessel
I don't have to think about all the damage I'm going to lose
haughty wigeon
Understandable
vivid vessel
But idk they should just have fixed fb a long time ago man
haughty wigeon
So your just afraid of they keep buffing fateblund indirectly you have to play it
vivid vessel
This whole thing is so bad
hasty warren
blizz is just unable to make outlaw good
haughty wigeon
Oh ya no arguments here
Like
Half the hero trees in the game is unplayable garbage
brisk spear
blizz is just unable to make outlaw good
Maybe they could if they delete hero talents again
hasty warren
Maybe they could if they delete hero talents again
idk id it's the main issue
haughty wigeon
But I don’t think the buffs rn to rogue will make fatebound a threat at all
In any game mode
It’s just to ass
And if people like it
Then that’s fine too
cinder relic
It makes fatebound better in low target cleave encounters, like the 2nd? last boss
haughty wigeon
They deserve to have fun with it too
haughty wigeon
But I don’t think
brisk spear
idk id it's the main issue
Hero talents just add problems imo (on rogue)
haughty wigeon
Fate bound becomes relevant for keys at all
hasty warren
Hero talents just add problems imo (on rogue)
i think there's issues with how ol works but I understand why ure telling this
frail veldt
But I don’t think the buffs rn to rogue will make fatebound a threat at all
wdym fatebound was already ahead in st even before the changes
but yeah for keys fatebound would have to vastly outperform in ST to be better in keys as well
and its unlikely that will happen again
vivid vessel
But I don’t think the buffs rn to rogue will make fatebound a threat at all
Well it does tho, you play it on probably most encounters
frail veldt
just inherently
vivid vessel
And you will feel like shit for it
frail veldt
the BF buff from trickster is so strong
vivid vessel
That's all
frail veldt
fatebound would have to overcome a 20% fucking buff to BF
like
thats ridiculous
it did that s1
cuz trickster was SO bad
haughty wigeon
wdym fatebound was already ahead in st even before the changes
ya thats why i said in keys it wont be relevant unless it does like
a metric shit ton
vivid vessel
Also I'm just gonna say
They buffed the other 2 specs
Especially sub
By more
Which is illegall
thorn river
Il be fuming is sub gets stronger in m+ aswell
vivid vessel
It probably already is tho
thorn river
Wait whut
vivid vessel
Idc about that tho
frail veldt
sub was honestly not bad this season
thorn river
Time to cry in a corner
haughty wigeon
i dont think
vivid vessel
I'm. Talking about s3
frail veldt
why does that make you cry
vivid vessel
Not s2
frail veldt
I am too
hasty warren
not again a season where sub is taking our bitches in key pls
frail veldt
im saying it wasnt even that bad this season
haughty wigeon
sub will gain traction unless someone really good plays sub into high key tier
frail veldt
and I think its getting better next
frail veldt
not again a season where sub is taking our bitches in key pls
when was the last time sub was meta in keys
thorn river
Cuz i cba to play sub, but if its stronger in m+ and raid not really a choice to start aub tho
frail veldt
its always a choice
echo gale
it was pretty good DF s1
hasty warren
when was the last time sub was meta in keys
sl i think
haughty wigeon
ya but it wasnt the meta pick
hasty warren
can't remember df
haughty wigeon
which matters i guess
thorn river
True
thorn river
But toppping meter is fun i guess
frail veldt
also current sub is pretty fun
haughty wigeon
thats a hot take mewo
hasty warren
frail veldt
removing dust made sub 1000000x more fun
thorn river
Actually me rn
frail veldt
meta in m+?
vivid vessel
Ye
frail veldt
I mean
vivid vessel
For rogue
haughty wigeon
its the same shit i tell people about vdh
frail veldt
true
yeah actually I remember tha tnow
but I guess if all of rogue is bad
who cares if youre the "meta" rogue spec
namean
frail veldt
I guess not getting invited on the best rogue spec is better than not getting invited on the worst rogue spec?
frail veldt
well yeah theyre both good thats the thing
vivid vessel
If all the specs are bad
hasty warren
no one will take an ol if sub or assa is way better
vivid vessel
You will feel terrible playing the even worse one
random stirrup
sub getting buffed by more than OL was certainly a decision
frail veldt
You will feel terrible playing the even worse one
you wont be playing cuz you wont get into a grou plol
vivid vessel
sub getting buffed by more than OL was certainly a decision
I don't really get the tuning decisions I'm ngl
frail veldt
even when rogue is A tier
its hard to get groups
it doesnt bring any raid buff
like this season Id argue assa and outlaw were prob A tier
and still hard to get in
vivid vessel
That'd irrelevant
frail veldt
they put stealth site everywhere
vivid vessel
Everything you wanna shroud you can
frail veldt
sight*
frail veldt
both shroud and mind soothe have been devalued intentionally by blizz
which frankly I think is the correct decision
cuz designing routing around stuff like that can have negative impacts on the meta
its even worse than already having to design a comp around hero
vivid vessel
Wait
echo gale
people are meld skipping anyway
they could remove true sight from a bunch of mobs and nothing would change
hasty warren
having more route possible is not better ?
wintry solar
"i have dr poison pls take me"
I read that as doctor poison
hasty warren
I read that as doctor poison
kek
vivid vessel
While barely touching arcane
While arcane was already better anywya
I feel like they have no idea
hasty warren
it's not like 3rd time in a row fire is good on ptr an get destroyer right before season start ?
vivid vessel
Idk
willow portal
Did we get nerfed?
vivid vessel
It wasn't better than arcane and arcane has been stealthing nerfs for litteraly months
gusty cipher
it's not like 3rd time in a row fire is good on ptr an get destroyer right befor...
Ye
vivid vessel
Idk I don't understand mage enough to know how big of a nerf that is
gusty cipher
pretty funny to see given how dominant arcane has been
vivid vessel
But it seems quite bjg
hasty warren
last seaon is was fire meta for 2 week and then ultra berf into 12% arcane buff
vivid vessel
Arcane doing the same damage while doing funnel is so much better
gusty cipher
Also it’s so much easier to give an ok performance as arcane than fire lmao
hasty warren
does fire still require having a tank playing for you ?
vivid vessel
I wonder if brew is going live that way
I hope it diesn
Does
Monksea does my st on some fights
My prio
It's quite nutty
gusty cipher
does fire still require having a tank playing for you ?
kinda sadly
gusty cipher
in terms of having to rely on your tank? Nah
frail veldt
thats a lot of specs
gusty cipher
Like for me, fire is basically a rogue in cloth armor. I love that shit so much. But it’s so ass and stressful to play without a dedicated tank. And then they keep nerfing it while still holding arcane as the go-to spec 
balmy topaz
True
haughty wigeon
I wonder if brew is going live that way
same
hasty warren
dk nerd is good for us ?
frail veldt
Like for me, fire is basically a rogue in cloth armor. I love that shit so much....
but I feel like outlaw needs very little acknowledgement from the tank
balmy topaz
Hunter nerf is better
frail veldt
if anything outlaw is super route agnostic
balmy topaz
We don't want hunter taking our spot in the phys comp
frail veldt
all it cares is "low downtime" and youre fine
balmy topaz
hasty warren
but I feel like outlaw needs very little acknowledgement from the tank
if ur tank is not a dickhead chain pulling one mob
frail veldt
even then it kinda sucks but its not the end of the world
its worse for assa
to not restealth
by a lot
outlaw just wants to punch something
at all times
gusty cipher
Dk nerfed tho
actually sad for this one, but still excited about the rework. gonna play that as an alt. Frostbane feels so good on ptr
random stirrup
It wasn't better than arcane and arcane has been stealthing nerfs for litteraly ...
yeah but fire was doing big overall number which is much scarier than 5% smaller overall number but 50% more funnel number ofc
hasty warren
ye vanish cd is kinda shirt for us
frail veldt
if you think about it our adr uptime isnt remarkably higher in dslice than in pure ST
the restealths help but they mostly help to mitigate the downtime between packs
hasty warren
idk if I stay ol this season ... the gameplay looks worst than s2
frail veldt
being constantly in combat is the best thing you can do for outlaw as long as youre in range of something
frail veldt
idk if I stay ol this season ... the gameplay looks worst than s2
nothing is worse than current KS
frail veldt
whats getting worse about outlaw
just losign our current 4 set?
I feel like HO players are gona feel it the most
non sleight of hand HO playstyle is suuuuper bland imo
hasty warren
idk I should give it z try at least, I haven't played on ptr
obtuse zinc
holding KS for a few seconds before an adds spawn is now valuable right ? Thinking about new dungeon's first boss for example
frail veldt
dont think so
hasty warren
but on the paper it looks weird
frail veldt
wasting cdr on KS is always bad
so unless its holding for a very short period of time its probably not worth
obtuse zinc
ok
cinder relic
How on paper does it look weird
frail veldt
yeah im kinda missing it, I feel like its objectively better lol
double coup is also very nice for adr uptime
hasty warren
How on paper does it look weird
i'm thinking of ks cancels
hasty warren
oh
hasty warren
I didn't catch that
hasty warren
when was this
frail veldt
today
hasty warren
ok i'm blind so
vivid vessel
Ok tbh
frail veldt
the only downsides of next season are if you really hate the downtime of new KS
frail veldt
at max cps?
vivid vessel
Ye
vivid vessel
It's cool gameplay
frail veldt
I personally dont like cancelling as gameplay
vivid vessel
Why
frail veldt
it feels like the spell was designed wrong if thats ever the case
its a cooldown
and youre cancelling it?
vivid vessel
You look at the cp going up
frail veldt
to do more damage?
haughty wigeon
and youre cancelling it?
this btw
vivid vessel
So if you don't cancel it feels yucky
haughty wigeon
canceling is just degen gameplay
hasty warren
idk why they don't rework it one more time
frail veldt
cancel mechanics always have felt like the spec is broken
frail veldt
So if you don't cancel it feels yucky
I think this mostly stems from it being too long for you
frail veldt
if it was shorter I dont think youd mind not cancelling
haughty wigeon
im not gonna cancel it
frail veldt
I prob will cuz the condition is clear and simple
"max cp->cancel"
but its pretty irrelevant
hasty warren
it's 90sec cd now ?
frail veldt
no
2.4 min I think?
as trickster
so whatever 2/5 of 60s is
24s
2 min and 24s
hasty warren
humm sonwith rb it's like every minutes ?
vivid vessel
I think this mostly stems from it being too long for you
No
It's because the feedback stops when you get to max cp
It should do the remaining damage when you get to max
vivid vessel
im not gonna cancel it
Have you tried it on ptr
It feels so weird not canceling lol
haughty wigeon
i have
i just find the idea of canceling even weirder
do i think it needs to be improved? ya totally everything can be improved
shorter duration would def help
actual haste scaling would kill multiple birds in one stone
make it feel like eyebeam
hasty warren
I still don't get why we have a channeling ability as outlaw where we have almost only instants
hasty warren
it's better than current ks
what is worst than current ks ?
hasty warren
next wedge
idk i havent tried it
vivid vessel
i just find the idea of canceling even weirder
also
frail veldt
what is worst than current ks ?
literally nothing
frail veldt
I would argue current KS is probably the worst ability in the game
vivid vessel
a channel in general i mean
frail veldt
in terms of how awful it feels to use
fathom bramble
I think it might be in the running for worst ability ever
competing only with othere veeersions of KS
frail veldt
its super disorienting to most players, it is fundamentlaly incompatible with many mechanics in the game, and it barely even feels rewarding to use "correctly"
I am still fucking blown away they made it the core ability to one of our hero trees without addressing the ability first
hasty warren
rng spell for eng spec kek
hasty warren
I am still fucking blown away they made it the core ability to one of our hero t...
blizz don't even know how to play outlaw, they just picked the cool looking one
willow portal
3 branns
lofty sand
Zac what is ur spellqueue Window?
upper hazel
vivid vessel
I think it might be in the running for worst ability ever
and its funny its staying that way
mighty pivot
actual tuning happened
wintry solar
I sure hope 3 naked branns don't tie me down and look for my buried treasure 👀
vivid vessel
Zac what is ur spellqueue Window?
150
vivid vessel
one day i tried lower than default and it felt way better
also everytime i try 400 again
i feel it
fathom bramble
and its funny its staying that way
I think I would hatee runeee eof poweeer moreee than neeew KS
vivid vessel
And I know it's not placebo because when tww beta hit I went on it and hit dummies
And it felt mega weird and laggy
And I didn't understand why
willow portal
can i check what my window is?
vivid vessel
And I realized I had default spell queue
hasty warren
maybe wanna try to change it again, haven't do it since sl
vivid vessel
yee i can seeee that cuh
burnt tangle
And I realized I had default spell queue
played entire season 1 with default spell que cause I had no idea it was a thing then I went and played some classic and realized I was just missing globals cause I would press an ability expecting it to go off
lofty sand
I think I would hatee runeee eof poweeer moreee than neeew KS
XDD eeeeeeeeee
fathom bramble
speeeellqueeeeue peeerceeption is very strangeee
sincee in theeory it's a damageeee gain to be on 400
but it can feel verey strang
random stirrup
idk i dont think i spam my buttons that fast but ive looked through my own logs somewhat extensively and even on 150 im not having gaps above 10ms between gcds
most within the wcl error range described earlier
lime lake
fathom bramble
theereee must bee someee way to fix this
frank finch
what is he wcl error range
wintry solar
speeeellqueeeeue peeerceeption is very strangeee
Sound like a laser
eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
flat needle
How do we feel about recent buffs? Are we back on the menu or just another shift towards the other rogue specs?
gusty cipher
the kitchen smellin quite good now ig
vivid vessel
theereee must bee someee way to fix this
last time i had this issue it surpisingly was just the cable giving out
which was unnexpected ngl
i tought the keyboard was done for
next wedge
Dratnos mentioned rogue in poddyC
fathom bramble
idk I'm gonna try cleaning thee switch properly tomorrow ig
blowing air into it seems to have helped
next wedge
it’s nice that people know how neglected we are
hasty warren
can i check what my window is?
/dump GetCVar("SpellQueueWindow")
random stirrup
what is he wcl error range
It has like a 5-10ms ish inaccuracy in the timeline
Slight difference in server tick rate or whatever
balmy topaz
!fuu
ornate heathBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
willow portal
so, what can i do here?
shy sandal
u start praying
that blizz fixes it this expansion
its a known bug for idk how long now...
willow portal
mighty pivot
if you want to nitpick this then it's not 3s either, it's between 2.4s (6 CP) and 4s (10 CP) after 25% haste 
I agree with the sentiment of not being hyperbolic but let's not do it the opposite way
cinder relic
I agree
mighty pivot
and I'm also aware most KS will not be supercharged, it still feels bad when you end up channelling for too long sometimes though
I wish they chose to let the ticks be progressively faster the more CPs you spent
hasty warren
ok 150 ms spell queue is way better
mighty pivot
so a 2 CP KS would be 2x0.5s (pre-haste), but maybe at 6 CP it would be 2x0.5, 2x0.4, 2x0.3 etc
vivid vessel
if you want to nitpick this then it's not 3s either, it's between 2.4s (6 CP) an...
i just compare it to live
live ks is 4.5
ptr is 5
mighty pivot
live KS is 4s
vivid vessel
ok well you get me
mighty pivot
ye just saying
vivid vessel
i dont remember live base duration
mighty pivot
they had no reason to extend the duration everyone but the devs agree on that
rotund zodiac
I came back from a hiatus, what’s this canceling KS thing?
dim parrot
Zac would fazed being a buff instead of debuff help
I feel like 3 min cd ks gonna suck for spreading fazed
balmy topaz
Zac would fazed being a buff instead of debuff help
It would help
Because currently we struggle to swap targets atm
dim parrot
Yeah lol
balmy topaz
But still doesn’t sort duration issue on Ks
vivid vessel
Zac would fazed being a buff instead of debuff help
ye man
tjhat shit is ass
you can never target swap
if your target dies
and you have coup
its gg
might aswell kill yourself
dim parrot
Ok I switch to ho
vivid vessel
what
dim parrot
Kms
cinder relic
Ya
dim parrot
One day
keen belfry
I feel like 8% to fatebound is quite large for raid
torpid fiber
only on fights where Fatebound damage profile isn't int though unless it's enough to overcome that, right?
but yeah 8% is a lot
keen belfry
Pure ST we will for sure play FB obvi
torpid fiber
yeyeye
willow portal
!commonerrors
ornate heathBOT
Common errors for Outlaw -> see this answer in the FAQ.
torpid fiber
council fights feel like it's probablllly fine to have the cleave bc all damage is valuable, unless trickster just sims better on that target count
keen belfry
I’d assume that trickster is always better at 3 target
mighty pivot
Look at that tail though
normal forge
isnt ret pala already buffed enuff?
mighty pivot
aoe buff mostly
civic zephyr
Look at that tail though
buddy nobody cares about your cat
torpid fiber
ret paladin being good probably earns blizzard more money than they'd lose if they removed outlaw from the game, so i think about ret paladin buffs as just a way to help support our spec existing 🙂
wintry solar
normal forge
ret paladin being good probably earns blizzard more money than they'd lose if th...
fair enuff
torpid fiber
like yeah it's annoying bc it's easy and good, but i don't have it in my heart to hate most ret players. People are allowed to grow old.
normal forge
i feel conflicted to go play ret, i am old, lol. but my guild core already has 4 ppl playing pala
wintry solar
Look at that tail though
Why's he got that face
torpid fiber
play what you enjoy unless you think there'd be actual guild prog issues with you playing ret imo
mighty pivot
Why's he got that face
because nobody cares about her, some rando just said so 
mighty pivot
that's why you are the second 🐐 (mafic is the true one sorry)
mighty pivot
she has a resting bitch face though it's kinda funny. As if she spends all her day reading ravenholdt
willow portal
does the luxthos wa follow the rotation rules for rtb for example?
torpid fiber
you can easily change the lua code to make it follow the RTB rules
normal forge
I insta ignored him
how do u ignore ppl like that? teach me
torpid fiber
right click on their name and then click "ignore"
normal forge
does the luxthos wa follow the rotation rules for rtb for example?
good question, i would say no, but i am not sure
willow portal
you can easily change the lua code to make it follow the RTB rules
not sure where the code is even
torpid fiber
it's in the custom code for the actions iirc
mighty pivot
check On Init
torpid fiber
god have they remade it again or something
there's the checkDice function somewhere
and you can edit that
vivid vessel
not sure where the code is even
in init
willow portal
torpid fiber
yeah
random stirrup
does the luxthos wa follow the rotation rules for rtb for example?
does the luxthos pack include the hekili esque rtb wa nowadays or is this referring to just displaying what buffs u have
willow portal
does the luxthos pack include the hekili esque rtb wa nowadays or is this referr...
the rtb button glows on certain conditions
torpid fiber
it has always (at least since late shadowlands but i think also in bfa) had some fairly simple logic to make RtB light up when conditions are met
willow portal
and i am using that glow to know when i should roll
random stirrup
torpid fiber
I do a similar thing; luxthos RtB tracking is ime actually pretty great
carmine geode
Any tip on Mug'zee mythic with KS?
willow portal
I do a similar thing; luxthos RtB tracking is ime actually pretty great
so you are saying the glow for rtb is reliable with trickers rotation rules?
torpid fiber
so you are saying the glow for rtb is reliable with trickers rotation rules?
uhh
no; i have code changed in there
i don't have access to my WA code rn though
i use luxthos WAs but fiddle with them quite a bit to get my preferred WA setup
but the actual RTB buff duration display part of luxthos WAs i really like tbh
willow portal
i dont understand lua enough to fix this trigger interaction
torpid fiber
are you playing HO or KIR
i don't know if it's possible to make Luxthos WAs fully support the KIR logic for RtB; you just have to track that yourself if you use them
willow portal
ho
or maybe i just swap to another rogue wa
whats a great one for beginners, with glows and stuff?
torpid fiber
with HO (assuming supercharger) you can just set elseif count >= 2 to elseif count >=5, and it'll work as long as you have "keep <buff>" turned off for all the buffs
it won't adapt if you swap build though
(I think at least. I don't remember what exception1 is here, you might have to change that?)
willow portal
with HO (assuming supercharger) you can just set `elseif count >= 2` to `elseif ...
shoulndt it be >=4
willow portal
(I think at least. I don't remember what `exception1` is here, you might have to...
the exceptions are both off i think
torpid fiber
wait you can just click the second exception
no need to change anything
literally already done for you lmao
willow portal
?
torpid fiber
it is fine != do so, otherwise it would say that
i don't know what the exact numbers there are, but that usually indicates that it's within a small range
i.e. not a dps loss or gain
mighty pivot
at 4 buffs it's dps neutral to roll or not yes
torpid fiber
cool yeah
willow portal
ok will try with that
keen belfry
Happy we do more dmg
But now we must wait for actual class changes .5 patch surely
hidden lynx
How are we looking for M+ next season with all the changes
Or which spec will be the way to go
wintry solar
Happy we do more dmg
But now we must wait for actual class changes .5 patch sure...
Midnight prepatch
That's where it really is
keen belfry
I don’t like how ks works
I’m over our RTB stuff I want blizzard to cook up some new RTB thing
Fatebound tree
Secondary stats(idk if I really even care I’m just complaining)
SS proc changes
strong halo
@vivid vessel stream when??
vale warren
I don’t like how ks works
I’m over our RTB stuff I want blizzard to cook up some...
Ks change reverted
keen belfry
Jsut make it channel faster, flurry off main target (still apply aoe fazed), and something with combo points
Also make fazed a buff on the player not a debuff on target maybe idk
tropic zephyr
Tbf this spell should have never been a part of our tree and should have been removed with mfd and db
keen belfry
Or just make coup not require fazed wtf why is that a thing
keen belfry
Make coup just give us stacks
hollow oracle
should using killing spree in multi target be a priority (blade flurry -> killing spree) over adren -> vanish -> between the eyes
wintry solar
They made this shit stay
They haven't done anything for class design in pvp for years
pearl topaz
in a choice between "the new KS takes long and i have to wait" and "ks causes death" ill take the former every time
wintry solar
Blizz is just bad at this stuff
They had all the time in the world to make it a pvp talent but didnt
Which they have done in the past
And vice versa too btw
Boarding Party to the spec tree in Midnight??
civic zephyr
Smart people, how much buffy are these buffs with the trickster aoe nerfs?
daring oxide
Happy we do more dmg
But now we must wait for actual class changes .5 patch sure...
🙏
daring oxide
Smart people, how much buffy are these buffs with the trickster aoe nerfs?
9% ST buff
For fatebound ST
6% buff for ST
That includes aura buff then ks buff and reshi buff
willow portal
unreal that i didnt have that
wintry solar
You get that by default as undead
B)
Undead has the best racials
Because
They're not strong in pve
And they're cool thematically
round spindle
9% ST buff
Is KiR still going to be the play after these changes?
keen belfry
Yuh
rare gulch
most people saying outlaw is the best meele specc so far - why this discord says outlaw isnt good atm?
mighty pivot
most people? where?
winged raft
most people saying outlaw is the best meele specc so far - why this discord says...
marcellian tier list i guess
rare gulch
saw it from guys like peettko too just asking here
cold tide
Petko hates outlaw so thats interesting
Even if it was pumping he was putting spec in b tier like forever xd
digital onyx
cause petko takes difficulty into account
he always says outlaw can perform atleast a tier higher if YOU can
cold tide
Seems fair
digital onyx
he would even argue that outlaw can be close to S Tier if you are a Beast
but considering its hard, he´d rather put it into comp dependent
cold tide
Keyword: if
digital onyx
its not hard to outperform fotm arcane andys
rare gulch
my last time on outlaw was in sl s3/4 - i remember it was a good time - but idk how it is atm
digital onyx
its harder to outperform fotm unholy andies who just proc bloodbeast early
difficulty does exist for 99% of the playerbase
daring oxide
can you explain why ?
Because KIR is the best talent for outlaw, it’s very fun and we get to have higher uptime on more buffs and this feeds into having more cdr as TB uptime is natty higher and we can use deft manny in aoe for free cp and more finishers and dps and therefore KIR is the supreme outlaw talent thank you for listening
gaunt phoenix
the ho build relies on current tier set
daring oxide
Or that
vital wave
are we talking ST or M+ ? because on logs I see only HO in ST
daring oxide
Are we talking this tier or next tier
mighty pivot
what is fun is subjective
daring oxide
what is fun is subjective
Your butt is subjective
mighty pivot
numbers aren't
mighty pivot
Your butt is subjective
it's true but it has gotten good reviews
daring oxide
Good
vital wave
Are we talking this tier or next tier
both, I just want to know which build to play in which content
daring oxide
both, I just want to know which build to play in which content
Play KIr next tier
Play HO now
wintry solar
what is fun is subjective
HO SC will be the high point of TWW for me
wintry solar
Keep on rollin rollin rollin rollin
daring oxide
But HO SC feels fine especially when we play for ST
gaunt phoenix
on ptr the ho build is behind everywhere, though on st it is not horrifically behind
If someone played ho during raid testing they either weren't looking at this server or didn't care
vital wave
but with the recent change, sub might be far beyond from outlaw ? even fatebound ?
keen belfry
How much does our RTB buff uptime drop next tier solo
I haven’t a clue the % time gained from current tier
gaunt phoenix
sub is likely favored on amp bosses sure
mighty pivot
HO SC will be the high point of TWW for me
it felt very good this tier yes, shame it needs help for next season. They can equalise it a bit but I doubt they will touch it
wintry solar
I'm gonna miss it
winged raft
on ptr the ho build is behind everywhere, though on st it is not horrifically be...
how many % are we talking about? 3? 5?
gaunt phoenix
on st it was 4% or so
but in aoe, where deft mauneuvers is used, ho starts to be like 10% behind
gaunt phoenix
ho never liked deft that much cause it takes away from ambush procs
winged raft
bet im gonna still play HO because the ambush sound is really nice, plus i play a ton of pvp and you never use kir there
plucky chasm
Is sub the best choise for m+ (till now) on ptr ?
round spindle
Because KIR is the best talent for outlaw, it’s very fun and we get to have high...
Not a single word of this can be disputed.
pliant wind
why keep it rolling talent is fun?
im interested why having more buff duration is fun in terms of gameplay
vivid vessel
<@352916297262301194> stream when??
7pm eu st when I get home from work cuh
vivid vessel
most people saying outlaw is the best meele specc so far - why this discord says...
It's good in S2, very good, not dk good but second melee probably
mighty pivot
why does it take you so long to get home? just hearthstone
vivid vessel
With assa
vivid vessel
why does it take you so long to get home? just hearthstone
Real
mighty pivot
imagine losing your hearthstone and going home to find someone else there drinking your choccymilk
brisk spear
imagine having a real hearthstone teleport
During school omfg, insta pop once lessons over
pliant wind
That would be perfect
You have 30m cooldown so if a girl is about to kiss you running anime-like, u cant cancel or ure not gonna be at home in time
brisk spear
lol
pliant wind
tried my best to do a funny situation but i got it wrong because cd doesnt interfere in that
im stupid
hollow oracle
hey i havent played since dragonflight should i be using blade flurry on cd in multi target.. and is it worth pressing in single target?
pliant wind
overall kir is better
magic shuttle
No need to press it on st, it's good to press in aoe if you run deft manouvers talent
hollow oracle
if not then no?
pliant wind
np
willow portal
should i keep a button for cold blood
torpid fiber
no
iirc last time we played it you could just macro it into everything
but we haven't played it in a while and it's unlikely we will anytime soon bc the button makes no sense for outlaw
pliant wind
get it for KS mega damage Pog
limpid onyx
It doesnt work for all of a KS right?
pliant wind
yes it works
why it shouldnt?
but as outlaw u have like perma 50-60% crit with all abilities
well less perma now
as u get less buffs in s3
:p
72% crit overall
you dont need cold blood
rapid grail
Trickster
Outlaw
Nimble Flurry bonus to Blade Flurry damage reduced to 20% (was 25%).
Outlaw
All damage increased by 3.5%.
Killing Spree damage increased by 15%.
is this overall buff or nerf?
for m+
willow portal
is this overall buff or nerf?
there is a pin for that i think
rapid grail
oh okkk
pliant wind
4% aoe 8% st i think
mighty pivot
this is trickster BF with the upcoming 5% NF nerf (disclaimer: still overall a buff if you include all other changes)
covert kestrel
this is trickster BF with the upcoming 5% NF nerf (**disclaimer**: still overall...
Disclaimer ignored, doom mode activated
inner meadow
!wa
ornate heathBOT
Class packs:
Guy's - Afenar's Edit 
Luxthos Edit
Zac's Group 
Devlin
Utilities:
Combo Point Standalone
Last GCD in Crackshot window / Subterfuge timer
Ace refund sound trigger
RtB buffs tracker (shows normal, CTO, and KIR'd buffs)
Unseen Blade tracker
Fun:
Ace max combo counter and Ace current combo counter
KS Ticking damage taken
inner meadow
on ptr with my 2nd coup. do i get cp or just send it right after the 1st one
gaunt phoenix
you get cps, but if you are going to press sinister strike, you send it early instead
pliant wind
what kind of overall dps should i expect in a 12 darkflame key?
4.5M aprox
4-5M
i had a try in may with 679 and +12
so i guess is like that
willow portal
hm
gaunt phoenix
yeah that sounds normal
willow portal
i am looking at 3mio with ho trickster build
daring oxide
https://tenor.com/view/dr-doom-doom-death-battle-vs-debate-gif-27228804
stealing this ty
hybrid mesa
i am looking at 3mio with ho trickster build
What ilvl?
hybrid mesa
Darkflame has also been a weird dungeon for me, overall DPS fluctuates a lot for some reason compared to others
But at this point 3m overall is at least decent
vivid vessel
When does <@1172550924519080006> come back?
Since the start of ptr outlaw got probably around 20% buff btw
And the op specs got probably around 20% nerf aswell
daring oxide
ya
daring oxide
Since the start of ptr outlaw got probably around 20% buff btw
literally next week, we are gona have quite a big bump in dps right?
with our current gear
vivid vessel
What's happening next week
vivid vessel
Ah you mean with just the changes
daring oxide
ye
vivid vessel
Ye idk
red zinc
should be a small increase now
daring oxide
yeah
red zinc
wasnt all that great before without tier
red zinc
naw
daring oxide
684 ilvl stuffs
hmm
how much was the KS buff in total
adding them all together
since it was changed to 3mins from 1 30
red zinc
Did some napkin math before this and it was a bit more than 100
mighty pivot
KS went from 187,5% scaling to 450,8%
daring oxide
KS went from 187,5% scaling to 450,8%
thank you
mighty pivot
but that is just its damage, the ticks are slower
daring oxide
honestly thats healthy imo
it needs to feel like a big BAM BAM BAM button
it still has its flaws though
but better than last tier...
red zinc
but that is just its damage, the ticks are slower
But longer channel
vivid vessel
What did you think about KS now being a nochannel macro angle?
I will cancel it for 0.2% loss idc
I think it's aid that they think they need to buff it enough for that
Without fixing the issues
But whatever
vital wave
@zac due to the recent buff of outlaw fatebound & KS, will you raid as sub or try FB ?
gaunt phoenix
I will cancel it for 0.2% loss idc
what if i said i misread my own sim and it's still 0.2% gain
slate forge
Let’s go
jovial dome
Solo! Say it ain’t so!
gaunt phoenix
i read 'dont cancel' as in cancel is a loss
mighty pivot
what about trickster?
gaunt phoenix
it has different vanish rules, you try to vanish if ruthless precision or supercharger is active
gaunt phoenix
what about trickster?
keen belfry
Oh so we still cancelling Ks?
mighty pivot
neutral is good enough
lofty sand
it has different vanish rules, you try to vanish if ruthless precision or superc...
You mean you delay vanish?
gaunt phoenix
yes, like trickster delays vanish if killing spree is up soon
fatebound delays vanish until RP/SC