outlaw

[gaunt phoenix]

to enter subterfuge

and finish with between the eyes during subterfuge windows

[white marten]

💀 glad solo understood the question better than i did

[gaunt phoenix]

because of the crackshot talent, between the eyes has no cooldown in subterfuge and also casts a dispatch on its own

[eternal wolf]

ahh ok

[gaunt phoenix]

trickster also builds a lot of flawless form stacks with proper use of killing spree and coup to further boost finisher damage

[amber ibex]

How will outlaw faire in the perfect comp next season? Will it be bettwr than assa? And what is the perfect comp?

[eternal wolf]

i was getting lost with the coup, ks, and unseen. so they are more prep and setup to proc more dmg from bte?

[white marten]

Overall it will probably outperform outlaw , but also, does it matter?

Safe to assume you’re probably running content that allows you to play whatever you want

[gaunt phoenix]

well ks and coup are generally just good efficient buttons but they also boost bte damage

they have higher priority than vanish

unless you absolutely must vanish immediately to keep adrenaline rush active

[white marten]

Is it possible to Cloak during the intermission of the 1st boss in Dawnbreaker to negate downtime?

[eternal wolf]

im mainly asking because i hit a wall at 3.5 mil overall and trying to understand the class more to try and push past

[white marten]

ilvl?

[gaunt phoenix]

ngl i dont remember dawnbreaker at all

[eternal wolf]

682

im hoping to get a 17 done this week

[white marten]

Depends on dungeon too. A lot of dmg variance per dungeon this season

[gaunt phoenix]

what is your adrenaline rush uptime overall? that's usually the indicator of doing well

[eternal wolf]

let me check, what would be a good avg to aim for?

[gaunt phoenix]

90%

unless you like, died a lot

[eternal wolf]

lol that's a vibe

looks like im avg around 78%

[white marten]

You dying a lot, generally?

[eternal wolf]

once or twice, depending

[gaunt phoenix]

can probably improve the general rotation cause everything comes together to keep the average cooldowns on AR+Vanish low enough to keep AR active

unfortunately it'shard to say what exactly

[eternal wolf]

i do get into rotations where i feel quite starved

[eternal wolf]

i agree

[gaunt phoenix]

well, if you dont have AR active, then you dont have energy

[eternal wolf]

i was just curious if i was missing something obvious

[white marten]

It is, its your AR uptime

[mighty pivot]

try logging some of your runs then it's easier to spot mistakes

[tacit maple]

Dummies are your bestfriend with outlaw imo, focus on one thing improve that and slowly add each piece.

[gaunt phoenix]

even then it's hard to look at a log and discern what you should have been doing for each global

especially the kir build cause of the RTB shit

though at least kir stuff will be way easier next season

[eternal wolf]

i have most of them logged. get 1 rolls 2 or 3 times in a rolls feels awful

[strong cargo]

I don't think so, but you can keep hitting it and mount up at 5s left so you have more uptime

[white marten]

Keep rolling those bois

[dim parrot]

Why is kir easier next season

[gaunt phoenix]

because we lose this tier set, so we lose a bunch of rtb nuance

You will just roll immediately after kir and that's it really

maybe hold the roll a bit for the next vanish

[dim parrot]

Ah

I hope the ks/coup/vanish loop isn’t too clunky

[eternal wolf]

thank you guys for all the advice, btw! ❤️

[gaunt phoenix]

should feel fine though target swapping is awkward sometimes

dont always have fazed active on new pulls/targets

[dim parrot]

Hmm

[gaunt phoenix]

so sometimes you have to send coup without fazed

[dim parrot]

Fazed and find weakness need to be buffs not debuffs tbh

Almost passive stuff but punishing when there’s downtime

[trail cove]

Hey, I wanted to know if fatebound is still playable in MM ?
Or it is only for raiding ?

[gaunt phoenix]

next season it is "playable"

[grim spear]

playable yes, good no

playable even this season

[gaunt phoenix]

you will lose >5% overall depending on bosses which idk if you can afford

[trail cove]

When u say playable, its about MM ?

MM+/dungeons

[gaunt phoenix]

yeh

[trail cove]

Oki oki ty 🙂

[clear zephyr]

Where can I see all the changes to the outlaw so far?

[gaunt phoenix]

not sure if there is a summary but it's just killing spree

[covert kestrel]

The pins of this channel is a good start

[gaunt phoenix]

new tier sets and ks

[clear zephyr]

I really like the fatebound over the trickster. I would like to know if it's going to be any better.

[cinder relic]

Fatebound will be good for st

Trickster will be good for aoe

[gaunt phoenix]

fatebound will be used on single target, though it does immediately lose to trickster on 2t onward

[clear zephyr]

Are we returning to the old rtb? It was really good the increase in the odds of the rtb with the S2 tier.

[gaunt phoenix]

ya back to loaded dice

[clear zephyr]

https://tenor.com/view/shannon-sharpe-undisputed-nope-funny-face-gif-536487951695337499

[blissful zinc]

Hello

[copper radish]

How’s fate vs trick looking for keys

Trick still pretty ahead?

[cinder relic]

yep

[desert tendon]

fate 1t, trick 2t and above

[copper radish]

Maybe someone will figure out a cracked ST trick build for s3 like we have now lol

[daring oxide]

not sure how much more it can change 😄

[copper radish]

One can hope lol

[cinder relic]

might be just a weak ST outlaw szn

And u play for aoe damagase

Odds are they do another ST buff BF nerf type change thru the season as well

[amber ibex]

is the best m+ spec the killing spree spec?

[cinder relic]

You always play KS with new outlaw

[amber ibex]

i play hidden oppurtuniy rightr now

[copper radish]

Another 10% overall wouldn’t be too bad 😂

[cinder relic]

HO likely dead next szn

Unless theres some nutty build that gets discovered

[bright crane]

I assume we’ll still run 1 pt in FTH?

[gaunt phoenix]

ideally yeah

[shy flume]

yo how much behind 2x FTH compare to gs

aoe and st both

for kir

[gaunt phoenix]

st, 2fth is about 6.5% behind

aoe/m+ overall, about 3%

i dont know good youtube guides, there is just written guides like my #outlaw-faq

i need to update it for the new season with some build and rule changes, though it will be mostly the same

[mighty pivot]

better wait for the last tuning next week first

[slate forge]

Tuning???? #nochanges

[high thunder]

yea im reading it :))
ty for providing such a valuable simple guide ❤️

[shy flume]

how much behind ho build in keys compare to kir

[gaunt phoenix]

currently? very minimal if at all

[shy flume]

curretnly

20+ keys

ho playable?

[gaunt phoenix]

Yeah

kir is a bit better at huge pulls

[shy flume]

is there any dungoen maybe ho might get close to kir

top maybe?

no big pulls

[gaunt phoenix]

i know kir is popular but ho should compete with it everywhere

few months ago everyone was ho

[worldly shale]

🤮

[gaunt phoenix]

[jovial dome]

Everyone except Zac

[shy flume]

i think he plays kir even raids

even st İ:D

[proper bear]

Why everyone gotta ho shame

Messed up

[jovial dome]

I like HO so I’m sad next season it’s gonna suck

[shy flume]

kir is so much better if u play it good

tbh

ho is like plug and play

[proper bear]

Is it though

[frank grove]

Hos ain't loyal...

[cinder relic]

Because people feel the need to feel superior because a build is perceived to be harder

[past falcon]

i just like pressing ambush 😦

[proper bear]

There it is

[vivid vessel]

ho is for noobs

[mighty pivot]

gotta gatekeep the spec played by 200 people

[proper bear]

The French, ho shaming, wild times

[shy flume]

what if u play gw instead ofc ctop for ho build

xD

[gaunt phoenix]

cto helps rng a lot feels kinda ass to remove it

[mighty pivot]

HO without CTO is legit torment

[covert kestrel]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1179317743749697538/1306460422622281799/99hpu9.png?ex=688796d5&is=68864555&hm=b33cc436102331e908d4139e52852f6689d15f4df7a034820bfcac02d770dd61&

[next wedge]

what wep oils are we looking at s3?

[chilly atlas]

i remember when we voted on tier sets in df, i saw a post talking about the kir build, being like you probably don't know if you aren't in the rogue discord, i thought it was kinda funny

[red zinc]

HO actually ate a penguin orphanage in 1993

[grave rose]

HO is definitely more fun to play

You know what they say "opinons are like assholes"

[chilly atlas]

everyone has one, and everyone else but mine stinks

[grave rose]

pretty much

[normal forge]

Gameplay wise, can someone better explain to me what we lose when we stop using 2 and 4 piece from S2 tier set bonus?

[fathom bramble]

you go back to running loaded dice and more or less only reroll when you have it active from casting adrenaline rush

no more spam rolling and no more Supercharger ho

[normal forge]

Oh

[dim widget]

!swap

[ornate heath]

You can swap most weapons in keys. Outlaw swaps between the Nightfall event weapon for trash and a better offhand for bosses, such as Capo (change the name):

/equipslot 17 Nightfall Curseblade's Cudgel
/equipslot 17 Capo's Molten Knuckles```
If your offhand is the same name as your mainhand or you have two of them in your bags, then the above macro won't work, you have to swap by bag slot:
```#showtooltip 17
/equipslot 17 Nightfall Curseblade's Cudgel
/equipslot 17 <bag #> <bag slot #>```
Note that **Gallywix's Iron Thumb** cannot be swapped in keys.

[grave rose]

https://tenor.com/view/rolling-eyes-gif-22773102

[frail veldt]

why would you ever lol

[hybrid crown]

its like one of the four things you can swap for PC and everyone thinks they are cooking by getting rid of it not knowing how awful not having it is

[frail veldt]

dropping GS so dramatically improves the gameplay though

[mighty pivot]

yup

[frail veldt]

it just feels like objectively the correct decision

also you can drop haste too if you drop gs

cuz its such an energy sink

[fathom bramble]

CTO also unlocks the RTB bug where you just randomly keep extra buffs

very important

[frail veldt]

I feel like that ones kinda rare haha

[fathom bramble]

it's definitely not common, but it is fun to get a kir looking set of buffs going on ho

oh wait that 2nd screenshot is kir

[mighty pivot]

the bug would be more noticeable next season if HO was still a choice

[fathom bramble]

yeah HO is dead now

unluck

[frail veldt]

im confused

why do people say HO is dead

didnt solo say its like 5% behind

which isnt far from where its at now

[gaunt phoenix]

right now it doesn't really sim behind at all

[frail veldt]

^^^^^

[gaunt phoenix]

i mean on live

[frail veldt]

oh

well yeah

but 5%

is far from "dead"

like wtf are people smoking

or is it more than that

[fathom bramble]

idk 5% diff is enough to make everyone stop playing a build

[gaunt phoenix]

i mean, it's more in 8 target

[fathom bramble]

well not everyone

[frail veldt]

yeah but what % of players are playing FAR below sim anyway

I still think that for most players, they would do more dps playing HO even if it was 10% behind

[gaunt phoenix]

iunno about that

[mighty pivot]

I dunno that's very hypothetical

[fathom bramble]

I think you would be better off using simpler kir rules

like way better off

kir is like 1 extra thing to manage that isn't really that much if you use simpler rules

[frail veldt]

I think if youre below 80% adr uptime you shouldnt play KiR

esp now that HO doesnt even play supercharger the rules go back to being even easier

next season HO fatebound is gona be so free

[normal forge]

i play HO with superchrager and for me is the best, most fun, build i have played in tww

[frail veldt]

like how close would HO need to be for people to not call it "dead"?

2%?

[teal dust]

no

people just follow streamers like a sheep

XD

[vivid vessel]

Bro ho was 5% behind in all of df and everyone played ho

[fathom bramble]

people still played it a lot when it was 2% behind

[mighty pivot]

that's how I see it too. For 5% it's worth the extra effort, if it was a smaller gap I could see HO being a good alternative

[frail veldt]

exactly!

[frail veldt]

but how does that mean HO is "dead"

5% I feel like is a correct gap for a spec thats quite a bit harder to play

[teal dust]

if the spec is already doing piss overall , then that 5% actually matters

[grave rose]

Because it doesnt feel like dog shit to play

[frail veldt]

youre implying KiR feels like dogshit? lol

[fathom bramble]

wasn't it much closer than 5% in raid?

[frail veldt]

in ST it was like identical

[grave rose]

I fucking hate it

[frail veldt]

if not slightly ahead

[frail veldt]

too hard?

[grave rose]

Feelycraft

[vivid vessel]

skill issue

[fathom bramble]

idk I just don't like kir

[keen belfry]

Zac you ever been to Amsterdam

[fathom bramble]

I don't think it's too hard

[frail veldt]

Wdym?

The rules are very explicit

[fathom bramble]

I think it's just not a fun way to interact with roll the bones

[vivid vessel]

no

[vivid vessel]

no

[keen belfry]

Come visit bro

[grave rose]

It just feels better to play, ignoring numbers. The flow of it

[vivid vessel]

why

[keen belfry]

We can split rent

[vivid vessel]

ah

[keen belfry]

Is it expensive here

[vivid vessel]

where

in france ?

[fathom bramble]

I also like having an actual generator during subterfuge so you don't randomly do nothing for 4 gcds in a row

[frail veldt]

I do think the roll after KiR rules are way too nuanced

[gaunt phoenix]

i think people are allowed to think KIR 1FTH especially feels like ass water

[frail veldt]

I like the builder rules of KiR waaaaaay more than ho

[vivid vessel]

well kir 1 fth feels like ass water

[frail veldt]

Ho feels like you have a handicap turned on for builder simplicity

It's literally "press glowy button"

[keen belfry]

Ye kir 1fth is butt cheeks but the things we do for more dps

[mighty pivot]

easier to play doesn't necessarily mean less dps (e.g., you don't expect ret to do less damage based on complexity)

I guess "dead" is an exaggeration, but consciously choosing a variant of the spec that does 5% less damage seems like a poor choice unless you are positive you will never learn how to play it properly to take advantage of it

[grave rose]

its a rhythm in the gameplay

[frail veldt]

Within a spec it should

10000%

The harder build within a spec should always do more damage

[keen belfry]

I agree with mewo

[frail veldt]

It has to otherwise it will not be a build haha

[gaunt phoenix]

i just think a 5% gap MINIMUM (more in raw aoe) is too much

[frail veldt]

That's negative return on investment

[mighty pivot]

so if GSW has a more complex gameplay you think it should do the most dps

[frail veldt]

I think 5% is the sweet spot. I think any closer than 3% is too close

[fathom bramble]

the problem is that you can reduce the difficulty of kir to at or below ho with alternate rules that DO NOT cost 5% dps

[frail veldt]

Yes

Ofc

[teal dust]

is it cuz of the tier set that the gap will be bigger between ho and kir next season?

[gaunt phoenix]

yeh

[frail veldt]

Anything that requires more effort or skill should be more rewarding

That's how fucking games work

What

[fathom bramble]

like should the harder build be so far ahead that you can play it 'wrong' and still have it be the strongest

[frail veldt]

That's why the one button rotation has a damage penalty

Like how is this even a discussion

[vivid vessel]

do you think it has ever been the case for kir

[frail veldt]

I definitely agree with that

[vivid vessel]

i think you kinda forget the part where its way more punishing

[fathom bramble]

I think its about to be

[frail veldt]

But I think even at 5% this is still true for Ho vs kir

[fathom bramble]

we could have a discussion about how punishing each one is

where kir 100% wins

[frail veldt]

is kir getting less punishing next season?

I kinda figured losing 4 pc would do the opposite

[grave rose]

I mean, we all play this game to enjoy ourselves, no?

[frail veldt]

ofc

[fathom bramble]

play it wrong as in use less optimized easier to execute rules

[grave rose]

So if someone enjoys HO more, who gives a fuck?

[frail veldt]

do you think KiR still outperforms HO even with "simplified" rules

[frail veldt]

no one is saying anythign otherwise

[fathom bramble]

yes

[frail veldt]

by how much

[fathom bramble]

might depend on how simple you want to get though

[frail veldt]

and at that point is "simplified" kir still harder than HO?

[fathom bramble]

I think you could get a simplified kir down to where it is as hard as HO without losing 5% dps

[teal dust]

thing is there is nothing hard about HO

[grave rose]

You have dickheads like Zac calling them "noobs". Just seems toxic to me

[teal dust]

so that argument dont exist

[vivid vessel]

noob is mad !

[fathom bramble]

both of them have the same core difficulty of reaction time + generator procs

[frail veldt]

I think you might be taking it a little too personal

[vivid vessel]

[frail veldt]

HO is objectively an easier build

[gaunt phoenix]

i dont think zac seriously thinks that

[fathom bramble]

the added generator complexity and kir are not that far of a jump

[frail veldt]

so its going to carry the sentiment of being "for newer players"

theres no way to avoid that

[vivid vessel]

I do

[frail veldt]

but yeah zac is memeing

[gaunt phoenix]

ok

[vivid vessel]

im not

[teal dust]

you ever been to his streams? youll get banned if you mention HO

XDD

[fathom bramble]

even ho in a typical ST build in season 2 is almost certainly harder than most of the specs in the game

[frail veldt]

I think it would be VERY close

probably within 1% if you did this

whcih to me is more evidence that 5% is correct haha

[frail veldt]

its probably upper middle of the pack

a lot of specs have nuance these days

[fathom bramble]

a lot of specs have the same or similar nuance

[frail veldt]

to HO yeah

[fathom bramble]

but the reaction time on outlaw in general is such a large barrier of entry to most players

[frail veldt]

oh sure

guess thats fair

[fathom bramble]

and no other spec compares

[frail veldt]

DH does I think

or wait didnt we find out that was a bug in how apm is counted

in the sim

[fathom bramble]

with enough haste ig

[random stirrup]

dh isnt that high apm

[fathom bramble]

they count picking up souls as apm

[random stirrup]

even with 0.5s gcd on some spells

[gaunt phoenix]

not a "bug" per se but it counts soul fragment stuff as an action

[frail veldt]

yeah thats what it was

[keen belfry]

Wait are we fully committing to calling HO players noobs?

[frail veldt]

Fury is actually close

69 apm to our 79

[grave rose]

Just dont understand the hate.

[fathom bramble]

it's not just about apm though

if you know what your follow up GCD is going to be then there is no reaction time requirement

regardless of apm

[keen belfry]

Raxus there needs to be inter-spec wars

[inland acorn]

isn't fire mage like almost 80 ? Though like 60% of it is just pyroblast

[frail veldt]

I know im just saying theres quite a few difficult specs these days so I wouldn't say HO is harder than "most" but its defintely on the hard side of the curve

[grave rose]

Wild.

[frail veldt]

74 and fireblast but yeah

[keen belfry]

You HO noobs waste so much combo points we hate you guys @grave rose

[fathom bramble]

isn't the harder side of the curve by definition harder than most ?

[grave rose]

Im a fan of the class, I killed KT as Combat rogue, killed Nefarian as Combat daggers, on and on.

[frail veldt]

oh sure I guess "most" to me is like 80%+

[vivid vessel]

frfr

[frail veldt]

vs harder than the majority

which would be objectively true

[vivid vessel]

these noobs wasting combo points

[fathom bramble]

I would probably say that HO is harder than 80% of the dps specs

[keen belfry]

HOly moly they aren’t efficient🤣

[fathom bramble]

it might not be more punishing

[cinder relic]

Most games don't work like this lol

[fathom bramble]

but man reaction time is massive for most players

[cinder relic]

Idk where this idea came from lol

[fathom bramble]

and people simply cannot play law at all

ho or not

[frail veldt]

weve had this argument before but they definitely do

almost all competitive games do

if they dont work that way they fall apart

[cinder relic]

No?

[frail veldt]

yes?

[cinder relic]

How many easy as fuck league characters are high tier

Now many top tiers in fighting games have simple game plans

[grave rose]

Dont you assume my combo point identity

[cinder relic]

How many simple hearthstone decks end up being strong

[frail veldt]

yeah and what happens when thats the case

[cinder relic]

The sky is blue?

[frail veldt]

the meta goes to shit lol

[inland acorn]

No i meant pyroblast. Saw some log couple days ago with like 45 cpm of pyroblasts and 25 fireblast

[frail veldt]

oh dayum lol

[hardy thicket]

All competitive games (popular ones) are the most dumbed down ones Mewo

[cinder relic]

The meta doesn't go to shit when shit like nasus is good top lane lol

[hardy thicket]

Those who appeal the most to the masses

[cinder relic]

Or when ezreal is a good adc

[frail veldt]

but even within those examples

you dont win by auto attacking mobs

[keen belfry]

Is foreverguy saying Ezreal is an easy adc

[frail veldt]

you do the higher effort thing of last hitting

[keen belfry]

Did I just read that

[frail veldt]

cuz its mroe rewarding

[dawn talon]

i mean like, street fighter as a series is a good example of this, it is the Two Step Gameplan Series

[frail veldt]

more effort should be more rewarding

[fathom bramble]

ezreal is safer, but kind of hard to play at a high level

he also tends to get played by mage players that get stuck in bot lane

[cinder relic]

Yeah depends on the bracket what I mean

[fathom bramble]

and don't know what to do

[dawn talon]

you'll get ~3 executionally dififcult characters per game and the rest of the roster generally want to meet some condition and then look for a stray hit with whatever the god normal is in that game

[keen belfry]

My point, he is not easy

[frail veldt]

but yeah even if you consider the champ in isolation the game isnt designed to reward playing the "easy" way

[cinder relic]

Probably a better example to use

[dawn talon]

BAAAASED

[frail veldt]

its easier to not use wards

but its more rewarding to get vision

[keen belfry]

Counterstrike is a perfect example for skill reward

[frail veldt]

cuz it takes some risk/effort

its "easier" to never roam or gank

[cinder relic]

Mf/ash

[frail veldt]

but its more rewarding to do so and execute properly

[keen belfry]

The AK is the best gun in the game by a mile. It’s also the “hardest” game

[frail veldt]

its "easier" to just use the pre defined build every game

but its more rewarding to change your items based on the enemy team

[keen belfry]

Oswalb

[frail veldt]

I feel like this proves my point rofl

[keen belfry]

Foreverguy isn’t cooking rn

[fathom bramble]

I think we can also just point directly at wow for counter examples

outlaw is rarely the strongest rogue spec

[cinder relic]

Most games don't direct relate hard characters with rewarding outcomes lol

[fathom bramble]

and nearly always the hardest

[dawn talon]

itemisation is a meme and overcomplicating it frequently loses people games

[frail veldt]

wow has plenty of counter examples between specs

[midnight granite]

P90 was used in like every recent cs major so your ak reference is kinda cooked

[frail veldt]

sure but ignoring it completely isnt "more" rewarding

[dawn talon]

yes, it is

[keen belfry]

You’re cooked man

[vivid vessel]

playing ho in the big 2025 year

[dawn talon]

you could be an emerald camille player and just buy the same items every game and hit master

100%

[mighty pivot]

I guess invoker should be the highest win rate dota hero then

[frail veldt]

yeah you "could" but it doesnt mean its the best hting to do

thats not really evidence to the contrary

[dawn talon]

diverting mental bandwidth to other tasks is very much the best thing to do

[cinder relic]

Doomfist is probably the hardest tank in Overwatch but he's rarely better than braindead tanks like orsia or ram

[fathom bramble]

people try to galaxy brain their items and skip core things they need

[frail veldt]

depends on your capacity

[frank finch]

aint ho like 5 % behind in ptr sim

[fathom bramble]

sometimes you should just always buy the same 3 things first

[frail veldt]

minimizing bandwidth at all costs also isnt optimal

[frank finch]

we gonna be fine

[red zinc]

#DoomfistIsNotATank

[cinder relic]

Doom is so fun as a tank

Esp with the power matrix perk

Literal cheater character

[red zinc]

i miss uppercut

[dawn talon]

doom as a matter of fact is deliberately and specifically made to be bad

[fathom bramble]

#RemoveDoomfistFromMyGame

[frail veldt]

What happens when the harder strat/character/spec/champ is worse?

in a competitive game

[cinder relic]

The sky is blue

[hardy thicket]

It dies

[red zinc]

Yo lowkey

[cinder relic]

That's what happens

[frail veldt]

^^^^^^^

ding ding ding

@hardy thicket

[dawn talon]

i lose to getquakedon and complain

[frail veldt]

we have a winner

[cinder relic]

But this isn't true

[red zinc]

is it just me or have new ow characters been clunky asf

[midnight granite]

Harder to play does not always mean better in any game. There needs to be a balance, but acting like it's the rule is crazy lol

[frail veldt]

outlaw at least popular spec

[hardy thicket]

I misread

[frail veldt]

rofl

[hardy thicket]

I thought u meant when its actually the best one to use

[red zinc]

since like ow2 release new characters feel kinda wacko

[hardy thicket]

Lol

[dawn talon]

i mean goats and lucio/zen dive were genuinely THE hardest thing to play correctly

in the history of overwatch

aaand everyone hated it

[frail veldt]

no when a spec is harder but worse than an objectively easier spec

the harder spec drops in popularity dramatically

[keen belfry]

Meta isn’t always defined by best in a lot of games right? Lotta times, pro meta can be defined by combos/ease of setup rather than pure character power

Right?

[hardy thicket]

Then game thrives

Thats what the masses want

[craggy barn]

it depends on the overal landscape of the game at the time

[hardy thicket]

Thats how u make succesful games

Lol

[frail veldt]

yeah people loved when brigette was strong

[dawn talon]

brig was and is the easy part of playing goats

[frail veldt]

I think when theres a healthy balance between the two

I dont think every hard spec should be twice as strong as the next

[hardy thicket]

Ret paladin hello?

[dim parrot]

Idk

[frail veldt]

yeah and wows numbers are just soaring

...

[dim parrot]

Can’t be punishing without being rewarding

But also

[red zinc]

give me the ow team that made ana back man

[dawn talon]

in modern voats comps in 6v6 brig is still the easiest hero to play correctly

[cinder relic]

Yeah wow is dying because ret paladin is too good

[dawn talon]

ana is a terrible hero design that completely breaks the game

[red zinc]

freja is the clunkiest shit ive seen in my life

[dawn talon]

like i love ana

but that hero is fundamentally fucking ridiculous

and the game would be better if she never existed

[hardy thicket]

Could you imagine if no class like that existed at all

[frail veldt]

I was responding to this:
merz — 12:23 PM
Then game thrives

[dim parrot]

I’ll still play a difficult gaming style with a higher ceiling because I enjoy the gameplay more than I enjoy just the reward of good results

[frail veldt]

having the easy spec be the best is not what makes a game "thrive"

[craggy barn]

ease of play + high power level easily breaks into a meta at all skill levels
difficult to play + high power level = only really meta at the higher skill levels

[cinder relic]

In a literal sense it kinda does

Having noob characters be good makes the game easy for noobs to play

[frail veldt]

I really think theres a healthy balance in there

[cinder relic]

Noobs are more plentiful than pros

[mighty pivot]

nor does having the hard spec be the best for that matter

[frail veldt]

I didnt say noob chars should be "bad"

[mighty pivot]

it's literally unrelated

[frail veldt]

lets take the extreme example here

why does one button rotation need a damage penalty?

cuz from yalls argument

it shouldnt

literally

[keen belfry]

@grave rose

[frail veldt]

you all are saying

the game would thrive

if oen button rotation had no penalty

[hardy thicket]

@frail veldt just look at all the actual hard competitive games and compare their popularity to games where anyone can be pretty good but not pro

They are all dead

[midnight granite]

I don't think anyone said that

Lol

[dawn talon]

well no, because nobody plays divekick

[frail veldt]

fortnite?

building?

what

CS?

what

[dawn talon]

but sf6 is the most successful fighting game ever and is also substantially easier than every previous sf game

[grave rose]

Heh, not sure you can call someone who killed KT 40 when it was current a noob. Old bastard? Sure

[frail veldt]

thats just objectively incorrect

[dawn talon]

nobuild is way more popular competitively

and casually

(bc building is too hard for noobs)

[frail veldt]

but this is discussing overall game dififculty

thats not whats at hand here

[keen belfry]

You nooby old bastard!

[midnight granite]

I don't think anyone can be pretty good in cs lol

[frail veldt]

its should the "easier" strat/spec/build be the best

and again

[hardy thicket]

Dota 1, HoN, Starcraft etc

[frail veldt]

lets put the question on the board

why does the one button rotation need a damage penalty?

[hardy thicket]

All harder than their counterparts

[desert tendon]

blu i like you i think

[grave rose]

Back in my day...

[desert tendon]

[frail veldt]

why does the one button rotation need a damage penalty?

anyone?

[balmy topaz]

[mighty pivot]

because it plays the game for you

[desert tendon]

not you ruby

i dont like you today

[frail veldt]

whys that a problem?

its the easier streat

[hardy thicket]

Hell even SC2 dumbed mechanics down deliberately because SC1 was too mechanially demanding

[frail veldt]

you should make it the strongest

why does the one button rotation need a damage penalty?

game wowuld be more popular

[craggy barn]

deliberate design decision to force people to engage with the rotational mechanics that can and care about damage

[mighty pivot]

it's a problem because of automation

[frail veldt]

if one button rotation didnt have a penalty

right guys?

wow would THRIVE

if one button rotation did the most dps?

right guys?

[craggy barn]

its a decision specifically to let design space actually matter

[hardy thicket]

CS is one of the few remaining ones

[sudden fulcrum]

Would it be ok if aimbots became part of CS?

[frail veldt]

good point!

[hardy thicket]

But compare CS to like Valorant

[sudden fulcrum]

Like a legit feature

[frail veldt]

aim bot should be an option

in CS

and valorant

the game

would

THRIVE

right guys?

[mighty pivot]

ok we are just trolling now I see

[sudden fulcrum]

No

[craggy barn]

yes

[vivid vessel]

guys

ho

ho players

[grave rose]

!wa

[ornate heath]

Class packs:

• Guy's - Afenar's Edit Luxthos Edit
• Zac's Group Devlin
  Utilities:
• Combo Point Standalone
• Last GCD in Crackshot window / Subterfuge timer
• Ace refund sound trigger
• RtB buffs tracker (shows normal, CTO, and KIR'd buffs)
• Unseen Blade tracker
  Fun:
• Ace max combo counter and Ace current combo counter
• KS Ticking damage taken

[frank finch]

[frail veldt]

ho should do less damage

[fathom bramble]

there is an absolutely collosal difference between removing all interaction and having the game be potentially slightly easier

[balmy topaz]

SO fucking true

[frail veldt]

like I said the answer is somewhere in the middle

[vivid vessel]

haha n

[grave rose]

we watched @orchid oracle warcraft videos of kills

[dawn talon]

the answer is just that it depends, in the case of outlaw if kir is ever better by a substantial enough margin that forum andies are forced to try and play it, our entire spec is getting reworked to soothe the noobs' egos

if a build for ret pala where you have 1 extra condition to worry about were 10-15% better, nobody would care

[frail veldt]

and I think that balance is for harder strats/specs/champs/builds to be at least somewhat more rewarding

[cinder relic]

Just because we can't define the exact moment when grains of sand turn into a pile doesn't mean that stuff like the 1 button rotation shouldn't have a penalty

[keen belfry]

Puked all over reading this rn

[hardy thicket]

None of our arguments say the games should be dumbed down to a 1 button press tho

[dawn talon]

every game has a different target complexity. overwatch will always be a more mechanically demanding game than cs which will always be a more mechanically demanding game than valorant despite the fact that CASUALLY, they all compete for the same marketspace

[frail veldt]

Yeah but Im just saying which side ofthe line it falls on

[hardy thicket]

Ur just being extreme Mewo

[frail veldt]

im not really talking about overall complexity though

[dawn talon]

i think it is safe to say that kir is past wow's typical target complexity, and that ho needs to remain competitive with it

if kir is going to stay in the game

[frail veldt]

well that was the counter to yall strawmanning my argument to imply that I think all easy specs should be dogshit

which is never what I was saying

[fathom bramble]

you could also push this the other direction in the same disingenuous was and ask why these is a GCD

[cinder relic]

Meh idrc. I don't like kir but if it's better for a season oh well

[fathom bramble]

let me press as many buttons as I can manage

it's more skillfull

[hardy thicket]

But i am saying that the whole idea of that the most complex thing should be rewarded is so dead in the water its not funny

[cinder relic]

Why not just instantly kill every boss as soon as you hit it once

[frail veldt]

thats already how most games are built is my whole point

you dont win in league by auto attacking mobs

[hardy thicket]

And I disagree

[frail veldt]

you dont win in league by staying in your lane the whole game

[craggy barn]

unless u play scion

[fathom bramble]

you are clearly playing the wrong champs

[frail veldt]

you have to do the "harder" strat, take risk, and be rewarded

[craggy barn]

or nasus

[grave rose]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy_ph4HD7YM&t=13s

[craggy barn]

and just stay in top the whole game and get ignored

[hardy thicket]

Most games are built to be easy access and easy to learn. That doesnt mean that skill curve and high skill ceiling cant exist

[frail veldt]

Games arent designed to find the path of least resistance and have it be the most rewarding

[grave rose]

@orchid oracle turned me onto soil with that video

[frail veldt]

youll never encourage the player to take risks if there arent rewards

then you end up with a super linear game

[frail veldt]

yeah the latter though requires that skill expression is rewarded

thats my whole point

you have to reward skill expression somehow

thats the basis of competitive games

it doesnt always have to be a linear relationship

and sometimes an "easier" strat can win

[vivid vessel]

i knew you were a classic enjoyer

[hardy thicket]

Yeah and that can be done while still making things easy

[frail veldt]

but the overall trend needs to allow for skill expression

[frail veldt]

yes I never said the game needs to be always hard

[craggy barn]

i mean
skill expression can be rewarded just by the shear fact something is difficult to play
not necessarily rewarding in terms of raw output

[grave rose]

I played classic once. that was enough. When it was 2005

[cinder relic]

This is literally 90% of the adc role, and many top lanes literally just split push the entire game

[craggy barn]

heavily depends on overal game context

[grave rose]

Im 46 man.

[frail veldt]

how are we arguing against skill expression being a good thing in competitive games

[vivid vessel]

all ho players are over 30 prove me wrong

[cinder relic]

Nobody is arguing this

Literally nobody in here

[frail veldt]

thats what it feels like lol

yall saying the easier thing should be more rewarded

[craggy barn]

no one wants the most difficult thing to be the most broken

[cinder relic]

Once again

[frail veldt]

thats the opposite of skill expression

[cinder relic]

Nobody is saying that

[grave rose]

I play both KIR and HO, I just prefer HO. Its like how you probably prefer the thicker women

[craggy barn]

and no one wants the most easy thing to be the most broken

[fathom bramble]

the crux of my arguement and the only reason I am typing is that I believe the skill difference between ho and KiR is not large enough to justify over a 5% damage difference

[cinder relic]

Nobody is here is saying "easier specs and builds should be stronger"

[hardy thicket]

Anything that requires more effort or skill should be more rewarding is what u said

[fathom bramble]

diff should be 2% at most

[craggy barn]

the most difficult thing being op is just as bad as the easiest thing being op

[frail veldt]

so whats the opposite of this

if you dont want the easier specs and builds to be stronger

that means you want the easier specs and builds to be weaker or the same

[fathom bramble]

I would never do something as inane as argue that skill expression shouldn't be rewarded

if you are playing outlaw it's basically impossible to have that stance

[frail veldt]

which is what I was saying the whole time lol which is easier specs and builds should be weaker(and sometimes the same) but on average weaker

[grave rose]

How is devlin not a community figure? Blasphemy

[frail veldt]

if you arent saying easier specs should be stronger

then you are saying easier specs should be weaker or the same

which I agree with

[fathom bramble]

there is the 3rd option of skill level has no bearing on strength and it's just all random

[frail veldt]

who dat

[fathom bramble]

which seems to be how wow actually works

[frail veldt]

thats the "the same" part

[frail veldt]

wow seems entirely random yeah lol

[grave rose]

one of the earliest rogue players that posted videos of kills https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy_ph4HD7YM&t=13s

[hardy thicket]

I agree with this in principle but games are not built like these since like 2010. Because they dont work as well (they dont attract enough people and watchers). Im only saying ur wrong in assuming this is how games work

Which was ur statement

[frail veldt]

I think its the basis of competitive games

[grave rose]

Mans a fucking legend

[frail veldt]

but game dev goals nowadays are to make the most popular game

not to make the most balanced game

[hardy thicket]

Yes.

[frail veldt]

And I think they know theyre making the game less balanced by doing so

and some would consider "worse"

but some think popularity makes a game "good"

I think there is a balance

and you shouldnt make every easy spec absolute dogshit

but I think the overall trend of the game shoudl be rewarding skill expression

which to me means on average rewarding specs/strats/chars/ that are more difficult

its a fine balance

but I think the core philosophy is still rewarding effort/skill expression

[hardy thicket]

I mean you are making comparisons to LoL right

[frail veldt]

to whatever

[hardy thicket]

Yeah

[frail veldt]

CS/Dota/R6S

fortnite

[fathom bramble]

Deadlock

the game where you die to 0 skill shiv

[frail veldt]

street fighter

[fathom bramble]

no matter what you aree doing

[frail veldt]

melee

[covert kestrel]

SUPA SMASH BROS MELEEEEEEEE

[frail veldt]

Melee is a bad exmaple cuz that game was never intended to be competitive

[hardy thicket]

And LoL is per definition a game in its genre that just took the concept dumbed it down and it went viral

[covert kestrel]

https://tenor.com/view/thats-why-hes-the-goat-mvp-the-goat-gif-27042870

[frail veldt]

yeah leagues a tough exmaple though cuz those players arent happy

haha

I havent met a league player who doesnt hate the game

[hardy thicket]

Same thing with plenty of games

[fathom bramble]

the people that play a game for years and seem to always hate it terrify me

league, overwatch, wow

[frail veldt]

but yeah while league did gain popularity potentially in part for allowing some easier specs to perform well, it still overall rewards skill expression pretty heavily

[fathom bramble]

any of them

[hardy thicket]

Also I agree there are still games that meet the criteria but they are not in the majority. And they also usually have something else going for them

[frail veldt]

mobas are tough games that require lots of map awareness and improvisational gameplay to do well

which to me is very much evidence of rewarding harder gameplay

[hardy thicket]

CS would have been so dead if they didnt come up with lootboxes

[grave rose]

a lot of it is knowing all the heroes. well.

[frail veldt]

yeah honestly league rides skins and cosmetics hard imo

[hardy thicket]

Not because its expression of skill

[frail veldt]

sure but they didnt have to sacrifice skill expression to do that

they could have

[hardy thicket]

CS was actually so bad down the drain most stuck to 1.6

[cinder relic]

I mean its just about finding a balance. I don't think hard characters should inherently be better, nor should easy characters.

Sometimes hard characters end up good. Sometimes easy characters end up good. Sometimes hard characters are so insanely broken in good players hands, that they have to be terrible to account for the massive skill canyon that exists

[frail veldt]

yeah but even aside from characters, the concept of rewarding the gameplay that is more difficult is still true in those games

there has to be a way to beat your opponent by being better than them

lol

[cinder relic]

It isn't though this is my entire point

All of these games have had easy characters good for long periods of time

[hardy thicket]

Yeah but their tougher counterparts all suffered where reward of skill expression was higher

[frail veldt]

yes but even playing those easy characters you still have to do the hard things well

thats what being good at those games entails

your win isnt random

it comes from doing a hard thing better than the enemy

[cinder relic]

General game sense is different from individual characters

[cinder relic]

No lol

[frail veldt]

sure but thats my point, putting the "rewarding" gameplay into game sense instead of character micro is just a different method of the same concept

[cinder relic]

It's not at all

[frail veldt]

I dont see how it isnt

[cinder relic]

Because you can't balance macro and micro understanding of a game in the same way you can balance an individual character

[frail veldt]

sure you can

map design is one way they do it

that makes for floating and movement to be easier/harder

makes invading enemy jungle easier/harder

and impacts how rewarding playing those systems is

valeu of map buffs is another

cost of wards

abiltiies that grant vision

etc

those are all methods of balancing macro

[grim vapor]

Hi guys i have a realquick question, do u know why ppl is using the 658 weapon that has a shadowproc when u attack? nightfall curseblade's cudgel instead of the 684 MM one?

[frail veldt]

pins has the info on it

it has a proc that resets when you drop combat

[neat mist]

'cause...it has a shadow proc when you attack.

[frail veldt]

and since outlaw drops combat a lot from vanish we can get a lot of damage from it

[neat mist]

It's only used in AoE though.

[frail veldt]

but since you cant drop combat on bosses you have to swap it before bosses

[grim vapor]

so u swap it in pulls and play normal on the bosses?

[hardy thicket]

#outlaw message

[frail veldt]

yep

[grim vapor]

or u cant swap it

[frail veldt]

you can swap it in a dungeon

!swap

[ornate heath]

You can swap most weapons in keys. Outlaw swaps between the Nightfall event weapon for trash and a better offhand for bosses, such as Capo (change the name):

/equipslot 17 Nightfall Curseblade's Cudgel
/equipslot 17 Capo's Molten Knuckles```
If your offhand is the same name as your mainhand or you have two of them in your bags, then the above macro won't work, you have to swap by bag slot:
```#showtooltip 17
/equipslot 17 Nightfall Curseblade's Cudgel
/equipslot 17 <bag #> <bag slot #>```
Note that **Gallywix's Iron Thumb** cannot be swapped in keys.

[grim vapor]

ty guys !

appreciate it

[hardy thicket]

Also you can actually just swap after pulling boss if you fucked up and forgot. Like I always do on MOMMA or w/e name is in flood

People like to play trash and then randomly drag it into her in my weeklys

[frank finch]

Damn long ass convo

Meanwhile

[hardy thicket]

!prekey

[ornate heath]

Pre-key fuckery

• RTB as you enter the dungeon to get 2 Supercharger stacks.
• DO NOT RTB again inside the bubble as you will lose the supercharger stacks, similarly do not AR early inside the bubble or you will lose the combo points.
• After the bubble drops use RTB again (now at 4 stacks of Supercharger).
• Before entering the first pack BF into Stealth.
• Open on pack with AR into BtE.

[warped tide]

ah!

thanks

[next wedge]

does grapple cancel KS in 11.2

[mighty pivot]

no

[orchid oracle]

damn, digging up some ancient stuff 🙂 glad you liked it!

[fickle mantle]

so I've only been looking recently so apologise if this has been asked a lot, how is the mood of outlaw in 11.2 good, bad?

[blazing bloom]

when we are in our vanish windows do we still take advantage of opportunity procs or do we spam ambush and use opp once the window ends?

[gaunt phoenix]

Ambush has priority, assuming you are playing the HO build. the KIR build does not use ambush at all

[blazing bloom]

so basically ambush BTE ambush BTE repeatedly until the window ends?

[gaunt phoenix]

ya

[blazing bloom]

ty I have been fucking that up

[gaunt phoenix]

well if bte refunds cps then you just bte again

[blazing bloom]

I have been doing pistol shot when opp is up during sub

got it

during subterfuge *

[gaunt phoenix]

there is a small optimization where you can use opportunity in stealth if you have broadside active + 1 CP + and 6 stacks of opp

Or if you dont have energy to ambush

[blazing bloom]

thank you for always being so helpful

[grave rose]

Fuck yea man. I still listen to soil because of those vids

[novel socket]

hey guys

[grave rose]

Also the fact you're not a community figure is disrespect of our elders @orchid oracle

[novel socket]

is it possible to check with a macro if we have an aura ?

so like /cancelaura works only if we have the aura

[haughty wigeon]

https://tenor.com/view/flashbang-flash-cat-betterttv-gif-10690574645280585754

[orchid oracle]

maybe if they add a retirement home i could fit in 😄

[grave rose]

You and me both brother.

You gotta be mid 40s?

[vivid vessel]

@orchid oracle ho or kir

[orchid oracle]

deep insight

[vivid vessel]

wtf is that

[orchid oracle]

red icon!

[vivid vessel]

bro just tell me wtf !!!

[grave rose]

I think he plays Sin now.

[orchid oracle]

i got three rogues, playing all three

but sin mainly yea

but to answer you @vivid vessel , kir baby!

[grave rose]

Proved you wrong @vivid vessel hes old enough to be your dad

[jovial dome]

Are you just saying that because "Zac"?

[vivid vessel]

@grave rose get owned noob

[orchid oracle]

did i get it wrong

[vivid vessel]

no

[grave rose]

Youre the one who said anyone over 30 plays HO

hes definitely over 30

[near rock]

I’m 32 and prefer kir cmon bro

[vivid vessel]

thats not what i said

i said all ho players are over 30

not that everyone over 30 plays ho

[mighty pivot]

wasn't solo playing HO or am I misremembering?

[grave rose]

I think he prefers it

[warped tide]

!wa

[ornate heath]

Class packs:

• Guy's - Afenar's Edit Luxthos Edit
• Zac's Group Devlin
  Utilities:
• Combo Point Standalone
• Last GCD in Crackshot window / Subterfuge timer
• Ace refund sound trigger
• RtB buffs tracker (shows normal, CTO, and KIR'd buffs)
• Unseen Blade tracker
  Fun:
• Ace max combo counter and Ace current combo counter
• KS Ticking damage taken

[mighty pivot]

zac is lying again then

[spark relic]

!fuu

[ornate heath]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[blissful zinc]

Genuine question guys how to not use ambust while stealth and spam 7combo between the eyes

[grave rose]

depends on the build

[blissful zinc]

What build do i need

[grave rose]

KIR doesnt ambush

HO does

[blissful zinc]

Im still new mind if u explain a bit in dms

Im following zac build

[grave rose]

@vivid vessel

[frail veldt]

you cant spam 7 cp btes

theres a proc called ace up your sleeve which gives bte a cahnce to refund cps

which allows you to press it multiple times in a row

but its just rng

sometimes you can get lucky and get like 4 back to back procs

[blissful zinc]

All i can see is zac is using between dispatch between dispatch while stealth

[frail veldt]

which might be what youre seeing

he snot

[blissful zinc]

If i repeat that i get 0 combo

[frail veldt]

thats just a bug with the combat log

crackshot makes bte cast a dispatch for you

[civic zephyr]

I am a teengirl and playing HO

[frail veldt]

hes not actually casting it

[blissful zinc]

Oooh

[frail veldt]

the only finisher you use in stealth is between the eyes

[blissful zinc]

If 0 combo while stealth then cancle subterfuge?

[frail veldt]

no

so as kir you juts use sinister strike while in stealth

[blissful zinc]

What to use instead of ambush then

[frail veldt]

take ambush off your bars

!ambush

[ornate heath]

It is possible to use a macro to cast Ambush during Stealth/Audacity and Sinister Strike otherwise, instead of using the stealth bar:
/cast [known: Hidden Opportunity, bonusbar:1] Ambush ; Sinister Strike
*This is most useful to swap between HO and KIR builds without changing keybinds.
Stance swap delay is, for now, not an issue since we don't want to cast vanish into ambush anymore.

[blissful zinc]

Okay

[frail veldt]

or use this macro

which essentially detects which spec you are

and if youre playing HO it will put ambush on your stealth bar

[mighty pivot]

I would suggest starting with reading #outlaw-faq if you haven't already

[frail veldt]

and if youre KiR it will put SS

but yeah the faq will have all the info you need

[blissful zinc]

I did read it but i didnt understand it

Whats the factor that makes u ho or kir

[frail veldt]

wdym factor

its personal choice pretty much

[mighty pivot]

HO is a talent, KIR is a talent

[frail veldt]

yeah ho and kir are the two popular builds for outlaw

[blissful zinc]

I just copied zac talents

[frail veldt]

he plays kir

I would not suggest starting out as kir

[mighty pivot]

zac plays KIR so you follow the KIR part of the faq

[frail veldt]

its a significantly harder build that is more punishing to mistakes

I would start out as HO and follow the faq

[vivid vessel]

[blissful zinc]

Hello zac

[vivid vessel]

hello otka guy

[blissful zinc]

Mind giving me couple of minutes to improve myself

Ive seen ur 20m dps and im shocked all i could do is 11m

[vivid vessel]

ok well

i did that once

never again

i think

[blissful zinc]

I thought u were using dispatch after between the eyes but they explained it to me

Im also using ur UI

[gaunt phoenix]

ya I played the current ho supercharger mostly this tier

[grave rose]

are you over 30?

[gaunt phoenix]

nop

but that number is approaching

[blissful zinc]

Whats ur haste and vers

Im at 26 29%

[mighty pivot]

26% haste with alacrity or just from gear?

[frail veldt]

im 33 and I play kir

im an abomination

[grave rose]

His statement was HO players are all over 30

[blissful zinc]

Whats alacrity

[grave rose]

Solo says no

[gaunt phoenix]

The kir build wants 19% haste (including flask)

[frail veldt]

solos over 30 at heart

[gaunt phoenix]

more than that quickly loses value

[mighty pivot]

one of your talents. If you have 26% haste just from gear you have too much

[frail veldt]

none of this impacts your ability to learn the spec and play it correclty though btw

[blissful zinc]

I think its all gear since all my gear is haste vers

[frail veldt]

being over sucks less than being under

[blissful zinc]

I was at 17% before the crafted 681 neck and ring

Okay so whats the weakaura that show u the history of the spells u are using, the one i use when i do between the eyes never shows dispatch

[vivid vessel]

ye

every ho player is over 30

doesnt mean every player over 30 play ho

[blissful zinc]

Im 24 i want to be kir

[vivid vessel]

good choice sir

still young

[blissful zinc]

Help a broski out

All i need is 5minutes of your time

[frail veldt]

All you need is the faq

[vivid vessel]

ye

[frail veldt]

To become an S tier outlaw

[daring oxide]

its true

[blissful zinc]

But i cant roll 5 buffs consistently and my procs are ass and and...

[daring oxide]

playing expedition 33 made me feel old

im 34

apparently im ancient and should already be dead 😦

[frail veldt]

True

But think about it this way

[blissful zinc]

Are u using any macros

[frail veldt]

Anyone who does less damage than you and is under 30 should be ashamed

[daring oxide]

i think i only have like 2-3 more years of healthy outlaw years left in me

[vivid vessel]

no

[frail veldt]

And you can rub it in their face

[daring oxide]

before its gonna be too hard

and time to downgrade to devoker

[blissful zinc]

Where have u hidden ur action bar 1 can i see a ss of it

[daring oxide]

i might be fitter than most

i train for Hyrox as a hobby

[daring oxide]

keeps me fit for outlaw

[gaunt phoenix]

zac teach me how to be like u

[blissful zinc]

Ty

[frail veldt]

What's hyrox

[daring oxide]

its a fitness competition thing

really fun and all about personal bests

[frail veldt]

Is that like crossfit

[daring oxide]

https://hyrox.com/

nah not crossfit

i'd say crossfit is more crazy

[blissful zinc]

But you do have macros

[frail veldt]

But similar?

[daring oxide]

hmm

well

i think hyrox has far less injuries

but its still tough

[frail veldt]

Do you do the main Olympic lifts plus random other workout stuff in a competitive way

[vivid vessel]

no

most of my spells are in macros

but they arent macros

[frail veldt]

Yeah I'm not like saying CrossFit in any derogatory way

[daring oxide]

no olympic lifts

[vivid vessel]

mouseover pistol shot and bte

idk

[frail veldt]

Aww

That's the best part of CrossFit

[vivid vessel]

random stuffs sometimes

[daring oxide]

yeah

[vivid vessel]

there isnt any macro for outlaw

[blissful zinc]

U dont combine 2 spells at all?

[vivid vessel]

no

[daring oxide]

hyrox has a lot of focus on running, then you do functional workouts to finish the circuit off

and the format is always the same

[blissful zinc]

Are u on a normal keyboard

[frail veldt]

Haha bro

[vivid vessel]

60%

[blissful zinc]

With all this keybinds

[frail veldt]

There's no secrets

[vivid vessel]

i have alt and ctrl on mouse

[frail veldt]

Modifiers

[vivid vessel]

this is a real tech

[frail veldt]

Is the secret to keybinds

[daring oxide]

use a wooting 60he, mandatory for peak outlaw

[frail veldt]

Naaaaaah

[vivid vessel]

makes all the alt and ctrl binds litteraly a one button bind

its op no capo

[frail veldt]

Mechanical is still bissss

Dat good sound

[gaunt phoenix]

capo

[daring oxide]

dont do this, very dirty

ghostly strike always its own button yeah

[frail veldt]

Outlaw has no shortcuts or secrets

[daring oxide]

only secret outlaw has is that special CP trick

😉

[blissful zinc]

I guess i just need practice

The thing i was most concern about was dispatch during stealth

But thats cleared now

[frail veldt]

Yeah I'm guessing they aren't fixing the snd bug next season

[daring oxide]

my bruh

it suppose to be secrets

[frail veldt]

Lol

It's been here for years now it's no secret

And it's even less value than it's ever beenb

[blissful zinc]

Whats that

[frail veldt]

It's nice in pvp lol

[mighty pivot]

fixed next ptr build with no other rogue changes

[daring oxide]

if you dont know it is secret

!bug

[ornate heath]

[Outlaw bug Thread](#1276315296159760467 message)

[frail veldt]

You can spam snd with 80% chance to refund a cp if you have a supercharger stack

So you can get some extra cdr between packs

[mighty pivot]

!snd