outlaw

[mighty pivot]

outlaw ST seems low even with its "ST build" FB if you consider sims as correct

[silver sluice]

yeah "kinda" weak ST is not being honest. there are specs that play aoe builds that don't compete with tanks on ST in m+

so like...yeah

[crude anchor]

i wanted them to nerf rogue so that i could see us in the patch notes

[mighty pivot]

ele (farseer) was on par with FB outlaw on ST and got a 19% increase or something

[covert heart]

I think the problem is the current aoe doesnt make up for the dog shit st

Or coming season i mean

[vivid vessel]

aoe ?

i wish i was an aoe spec

bf just got nerfed by 10%

why do you think outlaw is an aoe spec

[mighty pivot]

it's also that the gap in ST is just too wide between all specs. This isn't exclusively an outlaw issue, but to equalise things you still need to bring outlaw up even if you touch/rebalance all specs

[vivid vessel]

we have had specs that were aoe specs doing 0 st

and they were doing actual aoe

not wtf current outlaw does

or like assa in s1 that had massive prio and aoe but weak st

[covert heart]

I still don't understand why the nerfed bf

[gaunt phoenix]

i mean they wanted to boost st without also boosting aoe as much

[cinder relic]

The spec in raid was throwing up good numbers

Probably didn't want it to be overbearingly strong

[covert heart]

They need to do things where they nerf it in raid but not mplus

Like outside raid bf does 50% ot whatever

They do it with healer abilties all the time

[vivid vessel]

bro

on fights with perma 3 target add random cleave

like xd

look at stix this season

[covert heart]

It just seems like a dumb or shortsighted nerf. Like just said fuck it and did it

[cinder relic]

What are u getting at?

[vivid vessel]

xd]

[strong halo]

bro how is zac answering on discord while streaming

[neat mist]

Just log on to do Stix and then log off for the rest of the week

ez

[crude anchor]

outlaw player

[vivid vessel]

i love how we went from

ye but

outlaw can be a crazy aoe spec that does no st right ?

[strong halo]

Do you guys use cudgel on 1st bosses of ToP + Xav wingz?

[vivid vessel]

to arguing that outalw is op in raid cause of 1 fight with random aoe

or what

[cinder relic]

What?

[vivid vessel]

me hwen outlaw does damage on the fight with perma random add spawns that are amped by 100%

kekw

idk

delusional or

[cinder relic]

Are you okay?

[vivid vessel]

prehentive aoe nerf

idk am i

you managed to say the spec was doing good numbers in raid

cause of one fight

with damage amps

on random add spawns

[cinder relic]

It wasn't one fight it was multiple aoe fights

[vivid vessel]

where you were doing tank damage to boss

there was 2 lol

[strong halo]

Is it a waste? should i use ST offhand?

[vivid vessel]

the other is a council fight

wehre it wasnt even that good

[cinder relic]

And council is..?

[vivid vessel]

optional and it wasnt even that good haha

it would have been a caster fight

like admi

prehentive aoe nerf cause of 2 random fight on ptr where outlaw was doing tank boss damage

while everyone know

outlaw would have been dog shit

the whole raid

idk

also this is just them tuning around pc again

like

they give you a talent

that does low target aoe damage

and are surprised

that after buffing it

by infinite number

we have to take it

when there is low aoe target count

so then theyu lower our aoe

to compensate for pc

how weird

[dim parrot]

Not allowed to be better than uncapped specs at 3 target cleave tho wym

[strong halo]

DO you guys use cudgel on 1st boss of ToP? and Xav wing?

[inland acorn]

No

Why would you use cudgel on boss fights

It doesn't reset with vanish on bosses

[midnight granite]

Still works on pull then swap

[covert heart]

i just think they got that 5% bf nerf from their bingo board

[frank finch]

[hollow cypress]

[vivid vessel]

10%

[covert heart]

i know its 10% but it was 5% on the notes right?

or said 5%

[mighty pivot]

10% relative or 5% flat

[late swallow]

tdf femmes started today

a delight to the senses

[frail veldt]

It feels like they're hiring gig workers to make the changes

Cuz they like flop back and forth

[late swallow]

literally me

[vestal notch]

from 50 to 45, which is a 10% nerf

[covert heart]

they def have a dart board where whatever their dart lands on they gotta do it

[late swallow]

been saying this for a while now

rogue dev is a diff dude from fiverr every patch

[hasty warren]

Hi pirates

[vivid vessel]

10 % nerf to bf

big number

[covert heart]

i feel like if they just reverted that we be in a way better spot

or less icky

[cinder relic]

They wanted to buff outlaw st while not buffing its aoe

[hollow cypress]

Sounds reasonable

[pliant wind]

And memeable

[hasty warren]

correct me if i'm wrong but BF actually is the reason why they can't buff too much our ST for raid

[cinder relic]

What

Spells like bf/psychic link are just hard to fine tune its why they get changed alot

Since both are "st = aoe"

[vivid vessel]

except that just equivalent to nerfing s2 outlaw aoe tho

• our aoe wasnt as good as in s2 already

you bring in line the st so you are back to doing normal damage

[frail veldt]

yeah but didnt they effectively leave our aoe alone

[vivid vessel]

no

[frail veldt]

how so

[vivid vessel]

yes from ptr patch to ptr patch

they did

[frail veldt]

The math works out to an even change to aoe

yeah

but the problem is later down the line

[vivid vessel]

but its a nerf going from live to ptr tho

thats my point

and its noticeable lol

you clearly dont do live aoe on ptr

[frail veldt]

ah

[vivid vessel]

i mean you dont do live st either

[young narwhal]

I'm new to outlaw rogue any advice about it?

[vivid vessel]

but

[covert heart]

yea like i am getting cooked by everyone on ptr

[vivid vessel]

mewo

[frail veldt]

so how did it end up that our ST was "behind" while our aoe was on par

[vivid vessel]

do you think

look

[frail veldt]

would that mean that the rest of the cast has inflated ST to AoE in S3

[covert heart]

and cant compete on single target in keys and neither can i on aoe

[vivid vessel]

elem got a 20% st buff

[frail veldt]

compared to S2

[vivid vessel]

this week

[hasty warren]

have you read the faq ?

[frail veldt]

so yeah okay soudns like it is

[vivid vessel]

while simming higher than outlaw

so do you think

if outlaw gets a 20% st buff this week

we need to nerf bf

by 20%

or

[frail veldt]

well 8%

but yeah

[young narwhal]

Yes

[frail veldt]

idk it sounds like blizz doesnt have a consistent season over season desired ratio of ST to AoE damage

[vivid vessel]

our aoe is proportional to our st tho

[frail veldt]

and they probably should

[covert heart]

i wonder if they will revert the changes with the data i been giving them of me getting cooked

[hollow cypress]

By one morbillion percent

[vivid vessel]

the aoe on ptr is just lower

similar to our st is lower

there is no point nerfing bf

[frail veldt]

like specs should do 6x their ST in AoE

[vivid vessel]

everytime you aura buff the spec

[frail veldt]

right?

[vivid vessel]

idk

[frail veldt]

but if that changes every season then theres a problekm

[vivid vessel]

i just know the damage is bad

everywhere

[frail veldt]

and specs like outlaw where our AOE is directly tied to our ST performance need constnat adjusting

[vivid vessel]

its not even close to live outalw

[frank finch]

we doing less aoe and same st

[frail veldt]

kind of just problematic design at its core

[frank finch]

with 26 more ilvl

[frail veldt]

other specs must be too though

[covert heart]

yea my st is about the same as it is on life when i am testing

[frail veldt]

if youre saying that our aoe is on par with other specs

in s3

or is our aoe not on par with other specs

[covert heart]

our aoe is not on par

[frail veldt]

well it sounds like it was which is why they chose to not buff it with the ST buff

so they must have had that perception

[dim parrot]

Honestly

[vivid vessel]

no lol

[frail veldt]

well blizz thinks it is apparently

[covert heart]

like for me to beat specs on ptr they need to have no cds at all

and even then i might get cooked by the shadow priest i play with

[dim parrot]

They might nuke precise cuts for better ST to aoe tuning unfort

[frail veldt]

theres a disconnect somewhere with how blizzard is measuring aoe performance then

something fundamentally broken internally

[covert heart]

i dont think they know what they are doing thats the problem

[hollow cypress]

Nerf outlaw

[vivid vessel]

ye?

i told you what it was

pc in raid

[dim parrot]

Pc is the easy out

[covert heart]

like i joke about the 12 sided die but it prob isnt far off

[frail veldt]

ah

yeah blizzards just lost int he sauce then

so the correct decision should have been to buff ST, nerf PC, and dont touch BF

but they didnt do that

[covert heart]

i think the devs of rogue dont actually play the class which is the problem

[frail veldt]

I dont even think thats relevant

they dont even understand the class haha

[covert heart]

it does because they could actually see the tuning themselves

[frail veldt]

you dont have to play it to understand the relationship between pc, st, and bf

[covert heart]

i mean it def helps

so they can see it with their own eyes instead of just running sims and shit

[dim parrot]

I don’t like a pc nerf either tbh but if a BF balances it out then w.e.

[frail veldt]

PC is a little op

[covert heart]

i am also selfish because i want my spec to be good in keys and it can be bleh in raid

[frail veldt]

honestly

[covert heart]

i just need raid for the gear after that whatevver

[frail veldt]

they buffed it before they fixed the bug with BF

[dim parrot]

It is for sure lmao

[cinder relic]

I've said this before but I think a new tier should be viewed in a new context cuz everything is so different

[vivid vessel]

outlaw aoe is dog on ptr

so

ok i guess

its just pc

in raid

being pc in raid

[frail veldt]

but even viewed in isolation, if what zac is saying is true which is that outlaw is behidn in both ST and AoE, why would blizzrad feel the need to nerf BF in conjunction with a ST buff? If the assumption is that its a result of overperforming in low target count in raid then wouldnt the correct response have been a PC nerf?

[late swallow]

i thought outlaw was S tier in keys?

[covert heart]

I have done alot of ptr keys as well and I feel the same shit he is feeling

Or a decent amount of em

[vivid vessel]

i mean

s3 ouitlaw

isnt s2 outlaw

simple as that

if you think s2 outlaw is overtuned

then ok sure nerf outlaw

but im sorry

its not

it barely does dk damage, while being targert capped so you are forced to pull smaller which loses time, no cds

and you have 20% raid buff

if i put a dk in a comp with all raid buff

he gains 10% more damage suddently

just like me

in a phys comp

[covert heart]

I thought it was just strong s2 but not broken or anything

[vivid vessel]

me hwne my broken spec is played by 2 person

and stil does less damage than meta specs

yes yes

[covert heart]

Like it def didnt deserve a nerf

Also when I was playing tank and stuff outlaw was not something I always wanted to invite

[devout garden]

!wa

[ornate heath]

Class packs:

• Guy's - Afenar's Edit Luxthos Edit
• Zac's Group Devlin
  Utilities:
• Combo Point Standalone
• Last GCD in Crackshot window / Subterfuge timer
• Ace refund sound trigger
• RtB buffs tracker (shows normal, CTO, and KIR'd buffs)
• Unseen Blade tracker
  Fun:
• Ace max combo counter and Ace current combo counter
• KS Ticking damage taken

[covert heart]

Have to play around it more compared to other specs

[frail veldt]

thats rather untrue

I think otulaw is probably the spec that requires the least accomodations

the problem is that the other specs all have the SAME accomodations

so they work well together haha

but outlaws performance is similar relative to itself no matter the route

unless youre like afking between packs obviously

but thats honestly one of the things I like the most about outlaw which is that I dont care about timings or pack size all that much

when on spriest or mage or something and the tank pulls without cds it feels fuckign AWFUL

[cinder relic]

Maybe that could be the correct answer

[covert heart]

I guess as I see alot of tanks don't like letting rogues restealth just in general which hurts. Alot of tanks like to chain pull to the end of time

[frail veldt]

chaining honestly isnt that bad on outlaw

its worse for assa by a lot

as long as outlaw can stay punching something at all times it doesnt really care

And I feel like chaining 1 mob is mostly a thing bad tanks do

like the 1% chain pull

thats like a telltale new/bad tank thing to me lol

[covert heart]

I think tanks at all skill levels do that shit

[frail veldt]

esp when that mob at 1% is a caster or something

good tanks will chain pull and properly regroup mobs

chain pulling and not regrouping is objectively bad

[covert heart]

Just drag 1 mob that is 10% into the next pack

[frail veldt]

yeah 10% isnt a big deal

[dim parrot]

Bad tanking isn’t bad in outlaw

[frail veldt]

as long ast he pack actually joins the new group

[dim parrot]

Worse for assa

Sub it sucks if you send cd’s on a 4 pack and then they pull more randomly after but that’s any cd class

[ashen void]

press cds and then the tank pulls 3 more packs

[tender wedge]

Ah the sub classic yes

Or alternatively pull two packs and move towards 2 more so you hold CDs…then he stops

[feral glen]

!fuu

[ornate heath]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[wintry solar]

We pull 8 in my keys, no more or no less.

[jolly geyser]

leave key if its 9

[wintry solar]

My little outlaw pet gets maximum usage in aoe

[burnt raft]

Another noob question x( is it worth to recharge 7 combo points and use finishers with 7 or its better to use 5

[gaunt phoenix]

you finish a bit different based on your build

HO build

[burnt raft]

Uhm.. i have no idea what should i do then lol

[gaunt phoenix]

KIR build

it's in my #outlaw-faq

[vivid vessel]

its litteraly op for outlaw

I iwsh people understood what outlaw does currently

i htink people are still stuck in sl

[burnt raft]

i was taking a look at faq but i was a bit bussy and I didn't see it, sorry x)

[frail veldt]

yeah its better than long breaks but if its between chaining a 1% hp mob and getting a restealth ESP before a boss I want the restealth

not restealthing going into ST as 1fth KiR can suck sometimes

[tender wedge]

I feel like outlaw suffers actually when you pull as per common meta

[frail veldt]

common meta people will litearlly say "wait here" while you afk

then they go round shit up for people's cds

that shit suuuucks as outlaw

[balmy topaz]

It’s just 1% chaining

I think the only thing I find annoying is the fleeing mobs that get forgotten about

And you’re trying to restealth

[tender wedge]

That and the 1% chaining but it’s a caster because tank dumb and it just sits back blasting you still while everyone ignores it

[frail veldt]

yeah that shit is the most annoying

"is someone gona get that???"

and your ranged have kick up but are too busy setting up on the next pack

[balmy topaz]

Mage to busy hard casting a pyro

[tender wedge]

Sounds like a rogue job to me

[gaunt phoenix]

@vivid vessel idk if you saw but the boots are increasing the cloak proc rate by 150% instead of 50%

[balmy topaz]

I’m dreading the fleeing mobs

[tender wedge]

is this how we get outlaw buffs?

[tender wedge]

crippling poison season

[vivid vessel]

aah

[red zinc]

Is that why sims were cooked

[mighty pivot]

it's the game that is bugged, so the sims underestimate the (bugged) proc

[pliant wave]

Zac team's Keystone is frustrating. I hope they clear the 22 ML and become the R1 team

[vivid vessel]

ye we are cursed

[craggy barn]

people see rogue and automatically assume they gotta wait between packs always, regardless of spec

its super annoying

i literaly have to tell people to just go bc idga and they still wait to pull things

[vestal notch]

tbf no one plays rogue, so they dont know how it works

[craggy barn]

bro it used to be people would fucking pull regardless and u would complain

now they just ask

people gotta stop changing shit up

[wintry solar]

Day late and a dollar short

Fr

[craggy barn]

its also not just pugs, i have a few tanks i run with sometimes that always ask

and its annoying that i have to keep telling them

that idgaf

[chilly atlas]

all the good ones

[white marten]

OUTLAW S TIER BABY!! S3 HERE WE COME!!

[frank finch]

[white marten]

Best padders 2025

[prisma vessel]

[balmy topaz]

[white marten]

Outlaw rogues gonna be most played spec .

Over Ret pally

Calling it now

[chilly atlas]

[hybrid crown]

Wait will the cloak proc crit rate be affected by bte

Is outlaw just going to be cloak spec

[devout garden]

!wa

[ornate heath]

Class packs:

• Guy's - Afenar's Edit Luxthos Edit
• Zac's Group Devlin
  Utilities:
• Combo Point Standalone
• Last GCD in Crackshot window / Subterfuge timer
• Ace refund sound trigger
• RtB buffs tracker (shows normal, CTO, and KIR'd buffs)
• Unseen Blade tracker
  Fun:
• Ace max combo counter and Ace current combo counter
• KS Ticking damage taken

[tender wedge]

Outlaw cloak and boot tier

[deep sequoia]

tbh losing the current tier is gonna suck ass at first

the amount of times i get 5 rolls is kinda insane

[tender wedge]

May end up being another “don’t swap til 4/5” tier switch

[deep sequoia]

yea forreal

[vivid vessel]

well

its always like that

usually

not this time tho

2p are very good

next tier

we will play 2p 2p

[prisma vessel]

S3 we playing 2p2p?

[vivid vessel]

we are playiung 4p

he is talking about gearing up

[prisma vessel]

oh oh

my bad

[tender wedge]

thats good

[red zinc]

zac

You’re an s tier pocket watcher

How is havoc doing

no favorites being played by dev unc?

[cinder relic]

I'm not Zac but a lot of dh players are also complaining at being neglected so

[vivid vessel]

i wont say anything

just that rogue and dh are closely related

[cinder relic]

Idk about tuning tho, seemed average on testing

I duno if it got chain buffed or anything

[vivid vessel]

was quite good in m+

damage profile is good also

funnel

[covert kestrel]

I saw something about fel scarred havoc rotation being jank

[vivid vessel]

[covert kestrel]

Or maybe their tier

[vivid vessel]

no way the hero talents are jank

[cinder relic]

If it makes u feel any better, warriors are also shit and hank

Jank

[red zinc]

should everyone be required to play 10 minutes of classic version of their class in a retail encounter just so they complain less about jank?

[vivid vessel]

no

devs should be required of playing 10min of the specs they work on tho

[cinder relic]

I think if everybody played every spec at least a bit they would realize a lot of problems aren't spec specific

[red zinc]

Idk i just feel like (NOT OUTLAW) everyone is very quick to call for reworks nowadays (NOT OUTLAW) whenever theres one little thing wrong (NOT OUTLAW)

sorry have to zac proof my messages

ask a friend about a spec and like 30% probably want a rework for it

Idk

[vivid vessel]

i dont think outlaw needs a rework

[red zinc]

oml

[vivid vessel]

bro

timmy

i have been cooking

lately

crazy

i feel like a new man

[red zinc]

ur booming me

Ur the monkey rn

im

MALD

[vivid vessel]

ok

timmy

how about

you stfu you noob

[leaden folio]

O_O

[red zinc]

[mighty pivot]

wow zac is being toxic again

[cinder relic]

I agree with that

[quaint mauve]

he always is

[cinder relic]

It's less common now ampung outlaw players cuz a lot of them like crackshot stuff but

[quaint mauve]

i like crackshot stuff

[red zinc]

I just feel like

[leaden sonnet]

if the spec does high damage people arent complaining either

[red zinc]

With so many of these reworks it also just boils down to a few bigger changes people consistently suggest

[leaden sonnet]

Ive seen a bunch of people say sub "feels so much better on the ptr" despite nothing changing besides the numbers being a bit higher

[red zinc]

But instead they throw out most of the class

feel like in a lot of cases community would be equally happy with smaller changes as long as they feel good / change somethin up

[vivid vessel]

i mean

it doing 3 times more damage

prolly

people feels

[leaden sonnet]

Ye 3 times

[vivid vessel]

ye i mean

it does way more

[cinder relic]

The other thing is rework doesn't mean, reworked in a way you specifically like kwim

My ideal rework, and Zac's are probably on opposite ends of the spectrum

Where it's impossible to please both players, probably anyway

I remember the fdk rework on initial reveal everybody hated

[red zinc]

Oh for sure

[lime lake]

good thing my opinion is the only correct one and the only one that matters

[cinder relic]

Now they toned it back, and people like it (it also happens that fdk is a hero class this tier )

[red zinc]

you can never satisfy everyone though

Plenty of other things to choose from if they bone your vision of your spec

[vivid vessel]

idk about that

[red zinc]

even if it stinks

[vivid vessel]

you always mention going back to less resources and shit

with sl outlaw for example

[cinder relic]

Same energy

[vivid vessel]

but sl outlaw

felt better in a sense

cause less cp max

less rng in resource gen

so more resource gen

even if less

!

if i keep crackshot ace thing

idc

outlaw can be anything

[red zinc]

lowkey think people would complain more if outlaw got a 3% buff rn than if nothing happened

[cinder relic]

Schrondingers 3% buff

[red zinc]

“only 3%” headass

instead of just the single doom message and then leaving

[vivid vessel]

i prolyl would

just cause

i want

ks

to be looked at

i cant believe they just dropped the spell

[red zinc]

i want to look at you

[vivid vessel]

asked for feedback

and just

did nothing

[red zinc]

[vivid vessel]

like im still wiating

[red zinc]

[mighty pivot]

i hear you: KS damage increased by 3%

[vivid vessel]

i hope they never fix the fact we cancel early

it legit feels 10x better

[quiet ore]

I'd take it

[vivid vessel]

if they buff ks again

[red zinc]

They about to increase ks damage by the exact amount it becomes optimal to not cancel

[vivid vessel]

i kill myself

[red zinc]

0.1% damage increase to not cancel

[vivid vessel]

i would cancel tbh

[red zinc]

out of protest

Vrazy

#KSIsNotA3SecondCast

[mighty pivot]

make it a 1% loss to cancel and people will start considering the full channel

[red zinc]

Cancelling will now invalidate your logs

[mighty pivot]

cancelling KS removes your AR

[red zinc]

removes your balls

[vivid vessel]

ok but

canceling is better gampleay

objectivelyt

they made it give cp

so it make sense

[quiet ore]

CP only awarded at the end of a full channel would also stop cancelling

[vivid vessel]

defeat the whole purpose

[red zinc]

🏄‍♂️

[vivid vessel]

im like

almost certain

the point of it giving cp

is to have instant feedback

during the channel

otherwise you feel like nothing is happening

[mighty pivot]

make it give you SC if you are at max combo points

[red zinc]

I mean itd be the most bloated unintuitive thing ever but

It storing the extra combo points would help

[odd robin]

just make ks a big button to press

ez

big button one time press = big damage

[mighty pivot]

that's their take on it being a "big button" so far

[quiet ore]

Staple an automatic coup to the final hit of a full channel then

[vivid vessel]

i think

they should go the opposite way

when you get to full cp it auto cancel

and you do the remaining damage

in one hit

[red zinc]

im still confused why you get full cp before end of channel

[quiet ore]

The full opposite - it allowing other casts while channeling - could be neat

[red zinc]

I thought it was supposed to give back what you spent on it

[vivid vessel]

because it does

lol

1 cp is a 0.5s ks

you get 1 cp per hit

[mighty pivot]

ruthlessness

[odd robin]

or make it just op

guarantee all 6 buffs for 1 minute

[red zinc]

oh you get it on 0s

[odd robin]

ez

[red zinc]

The first cp?

[vivid vessel]

no

ruthlessness is a hting

and supercharger

[red zinc]

true

[balmy spade]

all im reading is that new ks sucks too

[covert kestrel]

Great that doesn't kill and fun flavor! Bad that they changed it a lot without addressing how ks interacts with an entire hero tree and now leads to "damned if you do damned if you don't" situations which shouldn't ever really be a part of game design

[keen belfry]

Yes, just less suck than before. Guess we need to be thankful for that

[haughty wigeon]

Cause it doesn’t account for supercharged

[worldly shale]

Ay chat

Are we gonna be ass

[covert kestrel]

id rather bbq my own nuts than play ass

[cinder relic]

I don't think it's as dire as some ppl say but

ST not lookin great

Low target cleave looks top tier, whether that matters much is to be decided

[worldly shale]

Meant ass as in buttocks

but kinda the same thing

so ure not wrong

[wintry solar]

https://tenor.com/view/donkey-cute-peaceful-gif-12376734

[wintry solar]

I'm just happy to be here

Here as in playing outlaw at all next season

[covert kestrel]

im just here to doom but will only be completing up to 15s and aotc next tier so nothing i say has merit

[wintry solar]

Oh don't get me wrong

I'm absolutely gonna bitch and whine

But

I'll be having fun while doing so

[clear zephyr]

New crit/vers neck https://www.wowhead.com/ptr-2/item=252009/bloodstained-memento

[chilly atlas]

i saw that either yesterday or the day before

[twilit nest]

very good

gonna be decent for sub rogues too

[wintry solar]

I'm gonna try to do the crackshot bit irl

But

How should I go about it?

Do I buy a bunch of flintlocks? Black powder revolvers?

Idk

I got a friend that can make leather holsters

[covert kestrel]

what is the crackshot bit

like holding guns irl??

[wintry solar]

Well obv

I was thinking flinktlocks so that when I'm satiated, I can give them out to my siblings and cousins

But revolvers would make a sick wall piece

[covert kestrel]

that it do be

need a blunderbuss for bte tho

[wintry solar]

I thought about that

But it'd be soooo cumbersome

Dang

I'll figure it out later

[buoyant cosmos]

they got rid of the concealed blunderbuss wording

[wintry solar]

Oh good

[quaint mauve]

@wintry solar do u like punchmade dev

it’s been my go to for m+ now

[wintry solar]

Punchmade dev?

[quaint mauve]

yup

music

artist

[wintry solar]

I've never heard

Lemme. Heck

This is interesting

[queen pine]

Does zac shares his ui anywhere?

[quaint mauve]

his was r here

[covert kestrel]

https://wago.io/KV-ljIcdb

You have to say uwu anytime you use it

[stray star]

Will the versa cap increase in season 3?

[covert kestrel]

What vers cap and why

[stray star]

I mean, now when you go above 33% you start earning less, right?

[hybrid crown]

If we are talking DR, crit might gain some in value esp for HO, but I can't imagine there will be a point where you will want like mastery due to vers dr

Yeah you get less % per point of vers over certain amounts

It shouldn't change

https://www.wowhead.com/guide/diminishing-returns-on-secondary-stats-in-world-of-warcraft

Maybe in aoe

Idk

[stray star]

So is there a world where for example we will have 18% haste, 33% versa and the rest in crit ?

[hybrid crown]

No simming will be the answer

I think vers will stay valuable through like 45% or some shit probably

That's how it was in DF season 3 and we didn't have to get a bunch of haste

[stray star]

i got it, thx

[wintry solar]

I let a song play out and then the next song was jingle bells

That's never been played on my account ever

Do you listen to metal?

[quaint mauve]

yeah i do

i listen to everything

i produce music too :)

[wintry solar]

Dude same

Holy moly

Colab?

[wintry solar]

Half a joke

[quaint mauve]

i make weird music

[wintry solar]

I listen to Silver Mt Zion unironically

I listen to everything but grotesque rap

[cinder relic]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/new-versatility-critical-strike-neck-added-to-priory-of-the-sacred-flame-on-the-377891

Guys its an outlaw season

[wintry solar]

https://tenor.com/view/hai-gif-10567033442484308038

[gaunt phoenix]

W for non raiders

[covert kestrel]

Guy said it first

[gaunt phoenix]

the raid has this tho

[covert kestrel]

https://tenor.com/view/oh-no-oh-shit-shocked-shookt-shocking-gif-9306580

[quaint mauve]

lol…. look up newport100s

on soundcloud

[vivid vessel]

am i stupid

doesnt this thing have way less stats

or is 100 ilvl just doubling the stats

[proper bear]

623

[vivid vessel]

ok but

100 ilvl juist double the stats ?

[hybrid crown]

requires level 68 ??

[random stirrup]

ilvl is exponential cuh

[vivid vessel]

wghat about the 600 ilvl before that

[proper bear]

Isn’t 1ilvl ~1% stat?

[vivid vessel]

hm

how does i.vl work

[gaunt phoenix]

ikd

idk

[proper bear]

Idk

It sneaks

Stats in

[random stirrup]

701 is 1% more stat approx than 700, but 1% of 700 is like 500% of ilvl 100

big number get bigger

[gaunt phoenix]

823 !

[vivid vessel]

wtffff

it double???

[quaint mauve]

yes dude

use ur eyes

gosh

[gaunt phoenix]

wtf

[proper bear]

https://tenor.com/view/bill-belicheck-patriots-popcorn-gif-13913400

[wintry solar]

This is the kind of music I listen to when driving at night. I like it.

Maybe I should do the same. All I do is show my friends and delete it afterwards.

[upper surge]

zac getting roasted in warrior discord too

[vivid vessel]

[hollow dragon]

they cant do exact numbers, but usually they pick whatever is closest. whether that is rounding up or down. so im asking for that last 1%

cant wait for them to fix it on blue post to say 7%

[random stirrup]

it was kinda weird that they did the math for boomie but not feral, despite feral already having a higher aura buff

[hollow dragon]

yea, hopefully its just a typo on the devs part

(and not the community manager 💀)

[fleet dew]

when to use killing spree?

[upper surge]

When you want to kill a lot of people

[gaunt phoenix]

highest prio finisher outside of stealth windows

[upper surge]

solo how is it that we only have 1 mutual server

[gaunt phoenix]

we dont have similar interests it seems

[covert heart]

question and i assume the answer is yes has anyone tried fb in a ptr key recently? i was wondering if since our single target is so dog water that maybe fb might actually gain some value

[vivid vessel]

thing is

fb isnt really better st

unless its actual pure st

which it never is

you lose close to 20% of your st with more targets

which is

an insane number

[sacred saddle]

That's fucked up

Whadda hell

[vivid vessel]

you cant afford that much prio loss

or st loss

[covert heart]

i see, i assumed so just messing around and wanted to check a key out with it to see what was up. I knew i wasnt gonna big brain anything with yall trying stuff in the ptr.

[proper bear]

Anyone know if an WA group can roll up text that sums individual aura status? I wanna have display text above Zac’s RtB buff tracker that numbers total buffs, etc

I’ve been wrestling w/ this WA package for like 2 days but my brain is just smoothing out

[lone spear]

why is delivered doom even a talent?

tails already doesnt do anything in aoe right?

so it makes it even worse in aoe

[tender wedge]

thats kinda the point people are making i think

[gaunt phoenix]

it flurries

[lone spear]

i mean most of our damage flurries tho

like fate intertwined gives aoe and st value

i guess until you hit the 5 target count so is delivered doom

[fleet dew]

1 question guys

im from south america im like 200 ms in game

i do miss a lot of globas

with outlaw

it is that important or should i keep being assasination

[true cedar]

as long as you get more mastery ull b ok

[fleet dew]

globals*

[lone spear]

you will be losing damage, but if you're having fun with outlaw its probably fine

[fleet dew]

NAH

doing ton of damage

is fun

[lone spear]

then yea you would lose less damage as assass

playing with high ping will almost always make you drop globals though

[tender wedge]

Playing with high ping as outlaw is worse than any other dps spec imo

Like it actually kills my enjoyment

[lone spear]

yea same, and sucks for me being on oce

i almost never pug with NA, which is yaknow, majority of groups

[tender wedge]

i simply try not to pug ever

but usually i go assass if i am

[fallen mural]

New Meta- General Grievous Outlaw

[white marten]

Huge dubzzz

Thats basically blade flurry + trickster

[fleet dew]

you guys know

if we can tmog

the warglaives

[pure crest]

you gotta have the offhand and mainhand then kill Illidan during TW BT

[frank grove]

!wa

[dim parrot]

What

Rogue can’t tmog Warglaives

Right?

[fathom bramble]

pretty sure it is DH only

despite them being technically swords and a rogue weapon

[twilit nest]

Only DHs

[dull geyser]

why is single target so much harder than aoe. noob outlaw here

or am i just cooked

[finite arch]

How do we tmog sheathe the hidden artifact on the hip?

[cinder relic]

its mostly the same

[dim parrot]

If playing KIR blade flurry doesn’t give you easy full CP’s on cooldown

[fathom bramble]

I think it can easily feel this way when we are often so much stronger on dungeon trash than we are on ST

ST in raid*

[dull geyser]

makes sense, my ST sims so high i just cant come close, 676ivl doing like 1.7-1.8 st. Feels bad. my ST sim is like 2M+

m+

[frail veldt]

Yeah honestly ive heard that sentiment a lot from new outlaws

I think it may just be that at lower key levels, outlaw performs very well

so even if you are making rotaitonal mistakes, youre outdpsing your teammates heavily

cuz cooldown based classes really suffer in low keys when mobs dont live long and people dont pull big

but in reality your aoe is also probably just as below what it should be as your ST is

it just might not feel that way

[fallen mural]

i think it was a glitch haha

[pearl topaz]

I feel like AOE has less room to lose your momentum compared to ST

[frail veldt]

well if your eplaying HO its literally identical

[pearl topaz]

sorry I meant more forgiving*, plus with ST theres more likely things that will make you move away/interrupt your flow

[frail veldt]

yeah even then

as HO theres no difference between aoe and st

rotationally, cp gen wise, anything

the only difference might be that you get more restealths in most "aoe" scenarios(m+)

but even then boss fights arent that long

so it shouldnt be noticeably different

[lone spear]

i can understand the sentiment of aoe being harder than st for KiR

because KiR trickster in aoe has much more to keep track of to be optimal

as opposed to the standard st builds

i think dropping deft might lighten the coggy load enough for new players

[fallen mural]

What do you mean by dropping deft? Wouldn't that make it more difficult in aoe?

[lone spear]

itll just make the rotation more similar to ST

which is i assume what the dude was complaining about

[glass mortar]

deft is pretty big for kir especially 1 fth variance squishing tho

[blissful thunder]

crit vers neck from psf eh

[keen belfry]

Decent if you can’t get that one from raid

Looks like a lot of vers again, kinda lit there’s so much good jewelry next tier

[elder phoenix]

Yo bois

you know what these weeks gonna be right

Its tier list season

[red zinc]

grats

[keen belfry]

Ty

Timmy

Amsterdam is sick

[quaint mauve]

i love this game so much

i love outlaw

this is so fun

[balmy topaz]

Makes up for this tier

[keen belfry]

Actually tho

[balmy topaz]

Although a lack of rings

[keen belfry]

Ass jewelery unless you rng’d the roulette ring

[balmy topaz]

Yup

I didn’t see any good raid rings I don’t think

Next tier

[frail veldt]

Other way around

They were saying aoe was easier

I really think it's a misconception that stems from damage meters in lower level content

[lone spear]

oh mb

[frail veldt]

They think they're popping off in AOE but in reality they're likely underperforming in line with their St but outlaw cranks in low content in AOE so them topping meters compared to their teammates is making them think theyre doing something more right in aoe

[minor trellis]

can i sim for rtb buff weights? i.e. can i find out how much broadside contributes to my damage in a 1 boss 5 min sim relative to the other rtb buffs? if so, how?

[balmy topaz]

@gaunt phoenix do you have the numbers for this?

[cinder haven]

There’s a sim option to force a certain outcome for rtb
rtb_fixed_odds
But it’s a bit iffy to work with. But it can be used to see the relative value of each buff at least.

Each buff has an id from 1-6 iirc. Can’t remember what id each buff has though

You can also test buff combos like this:
rtb_fixed_odds=12
would mean that each rtb roll would give the two buffs with the first ids

Probably still hard to figure out exactly how much broadside contributes on average

I don’t have an example sim to show as I’m not at my pc

[shy pecan]

how it law tuning looking on ptr so far? We decent or we trash again?

[balmy topaz]

Aoe decent - ST trash

[shy pecan]

reeeeeee

[keen belfry]

There’s a very good mythic+ ring iirc, I’m chill crafting one anyways

[balmy topaz]

He same

Ye*

Casters are kinda doomed

They’re all competing for the same items

And have so little flexibility

[keen belfry]

Yeah the trinket + weapon thing right? I haven’t looked much into next season stuff like this

[balmy topaz]

Yeah then you have 2X embellishments and tier

[keen belfry]

And cloak

[balmy topaz]

O ye

[keen belfry]

Anything else?

[balmy topaz]

And boots

The boots with the cloak

[keen belfry]

XD

[balmy topaz]

So basically

Embellishment will be wrists and belt

[keen belfry]

So like jewelry + one trinket are free slots

For some caters?

Casters

[balmy topaz]

Yeah they ain’t got much

[keen belfry]

I can’t wait for s3

I’ve become a rogue player

No more reroll

[balmy topaz]

Rogue is a banger

[keen belfry]

Do I even gear an alt

My mage and shammy are both geared too rn

[tender wedge]

i got a shammy ready for some casual healing but it's rogue tier as always for me

[balmy topaz]

I’ve gone down to casual 2 day raiding now so

I’m always outlaw gaming

[tender wedge]

ditto, but sometimes outlaw so unsuited to fight that i can press n and do more damage as something else

we'll see

[balmy topaz]

@gaunt phoenix why are we wearing a tank trinket on the fuu spreadsheet in aoe

[prisma vessel]

and its labled fatebound, but its trickster in the sim

[balmy topaz]

Ahh ye that’ll be a miss type

But I don’t think that trinket will actually work for us

Since it says only valid for tank specs

[reef forge]

!fuu

[ornate heath]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[normal forge]

do we have 11.2 delve loot table somewhere?

https://www.wowhead.com/guide/the-war-within/delves-season-3-overview#delve-rewards

[vivid vessel]

I play with 160ms on ptr it's alright

It's mostly annoying when your ms is variable

But if it's always 200

Kinda whatever

[quaint mauve]

u should play like uhhh ppal and ill heal

hahah

[keen belfry]

ain’t no way cuh

[split grove]

fuu

[plucky chasm]

I play WoW since Dragonflight end of s3 and i felt in love with the game 😍 And s1 tww first time Rogue…. I will never reroll Main aswell 😍 but i dont played the whole s2 because of our new flat and next saturday we are finished with all, so i can start build the setup for gaming 😍

FINALLY 😍😍

[proper bear]

!wa

[ornate heath]

Class packs:

• Guy's - Afenar's Edit Luxthos Edit
• Zac's Group Devlin
  Utilities:
• Combo Point Standalone
• Last GCD in Crackshot window / Subterfuge timer
• Ace refund sound trigger
• RtB buffs tracker (shows normal, CTO, and KIR'd buffs)
• Unseen Blade tracker
  Fun:
• Ace max combo counter and Ace current combo counter
• KS Ticking damage taken

[dapper herald]

nice 'za

[covert kestrel]

Breakfast pizza?

[gaunt phoenix]

!fuu

[ornate heath]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[keen belfry]

Parmigiano

[mighty pivot]

our goat

[dapper herald]

https://wago.io/Pd53s_NPU

is this wa ok if i want to play kir?

[desert tendon]

Good

[frozen swallow]

Anyone have a good Unseen Blade/Disorienting Strikes WA?

[desert tendon]

A real pizza

Well lot of stuff on it and where s the salad. But at least not an american oil bullshit

[wintry solar]

Rabbit food on pizza

[mighty pivot]

https://tenor.com/view/monty-python-and-the-holy-grail-rabbit-bunny-gif-11190286

[covert kestrel]

Better to use zacs RtB tracker and just learn the rules so you don't rely on this wa

[wintry solar]

did you know that even though deer are considered herbivores, theyre actually omnivores and will even scavenge off a predator if necessary?

[mighty pivot]

https://tenor.com/view/deer-oh-oh-dear-gif-13290133576044791105

ok nerd

[wintry solar]

AND

catfish

are the only animlas with an odd number of whiskers

[mighty pivot]

how odd

are you googling animal fun facts?

[wintry solar]

no I klnow a bunch offhand

playing killing floor 3

no time

[mighty pivot]

you have time to post them here, but not google them. big cap

[wintry solar]

between rounds

[jolly geyser]

did you know blue whales are big?

[wintry solar]

no theyre not

but cheetahs are just like house cats only bigger

[mighty pivot]

that's true cheetahs purr so we should be allowed to have them as house cats. If no fren why fren shape?

[jolly geyser]

they are more dog like iirc

[wintry solar]

theyre social animals so zoos give them dogs as a companion

[wintry solar]

you prolly could tbh

but like

would you want a house cat the size of a cheetah?

3am zoomies and your house is destroyed

[mighty pivot]

yes but big cuddles

[wintry solar]

damn thats a good argument

okay you win

[jolly geyser]

siberian tiger

[long barn]

How is outlaw looking dps wise on PTR

[mighty pivot]

also cheetahs are diurnal you will likely have the zoomies during the day

[wintry solar]

no no

I mean house ccats the size of cheetahs

goober

[mighty pivot]

how would you get that? not even maine coons or NFCs can get anywhere that big. I am talking about a realistic scenario, sweetie 💅

[elder phoenix]

any good tier lists for raids and m+?

[wintry solar]

not selectively breeding bears to be house pets was a huge missed opportunity

[mighty pivot]

well there is one kind of bear you can breed in your house

[wintry solar]

elaborate

sea bears?

[mighty pivot]

https://tenor.com/view/no-nope-no-way-noo-absolutely-not-gif-20244171

[vapid blaze]

dont they all purr?

[mighty pivot]

big cats roar ( :3 )

[plucky chasm]

Guys

Any new changed rogue ?

[wintry solar]

no

[plucky chasm]

Changes*

Okiii

[vapid blaze]

but cant they still purr? it just sounds different

[plucky chasm]

Empty

[mighty pivot]

cats that roar cannot purr

[wintry solar]

different hardware

[mighty pivot]

it's a choice talent node

[vapid blaze]

oh i see

[covert kestrel]

No tier lists are good

[covert kestrel]

OK aoe not OK st

[hot olive]

worng

lions purr

[mighty pivot]

lie

[hot olive]

google it

[mighty pivot]

ok I did and indeed lions cannot purr

[grim spear]

last gally fight and get f**ked

[long barn]

Even with the 10% ST buff?

[mighty pivot]

yes even with the 10%

[long barn]

Ewww

[balmy topaz]

We need another 10% in ST

[little zephyr]

whats the best % Haste to have for KIR?

[gaunt phoenix]

19%

[little zephyr]

I am seeing some people saying 20 some people saying 19

def 19 yeah?

[gaunt phoenix]

it's technically 19 but 20 is fine

it's so you have 25% haste after alacrity

[proper bear]

Any point in having more than 19?

[gaunt phoenix]

haste buffs are multiplicative so 19.05 is enough to get 25%

[gaunt phoenix]

no, but it may just be how your gear works out

[proper bear]

Gotya

[little zephyr]

cool so guessing ideally deadly sapphire is the gem you want to be able to spam on the gear when you have hit 19%

[gaunt phoenix]

in the ends raidbots will decide your haste gear

and gems/enchants

[gaunt phoenix]

Mixing gems for the crit damage should be slightly better

[sudden fulcrum]

it seems so backwards that this is a thing

every spec i've ever seen says go sim your gear but then outlaw is liek you need 19% but also sim

[gaunt phoenix]

just set this in raidbots and let it go

[mighty pivot]

the haste never bothered me anyway

[hardy vault]

is that a frozen reference?

[mighty pivot]

[gaunt phoenix]

Well the kir build should not be played with negative haste

so i think the awareness is good

rather than "just sim lol"

[sudden fulcrum]

if the sim will give you the same answer then why does it matter?

[gaunt phoenix]

Because you have to generate combinations are that capable of reaching 19% haste

[mighty pivot]

it matters to have enough gear to match the haste requirement

[little zephyr]

0.2 percent increase not going to bother lol

[gaunt phoenix]

huge

[white marten]

Whats the difference between GS vs 2fth in m+?

[gaunt phoenix]

2fth is about 6.5% worse in ST and 3% worse in 5 target/dslice overall

[white marten]

Yikesss

[gaunt phoenix]

though it is way, way more consistent

in st

[white marten]

Well, there aren’t many pure ST bosses in m+, so that ain’t terrible

2fth being more consistent, id imagine?

[gaunt phoenix]

yeh

[white marten]

Whys that exactly? Not losing your GS target mid pull or something?

[gaunt phoenix]

well GS is large energy sink

and 2FTH is a lot of combo point generation

that 1FTH does not get

[white marten]

Yeah 2fth feels way better to play

[gaunt phoenix]

1FTH kind of relies on broadside

in ST

because it cant use deft maneuvers for cps

[white marten]

Right

Ill run 2fth then. 3% is minimal

[gaunt phoenix]

but conversely 2fth is kind of annoying for trickster stuffs

sitting at 6 stacks of opportunity but pressing SS for unseen blade is gross

[white marten]

Speaking of Unseen blade , are we rebuilding to max CB before using the 2nd one?

[gaunt phoenix]

You send coup early, the first one or the second one, if you would otherwise have to press ss

so you can coup > BF/AR/PS/GS > coup

but not coup > ss > coup

[eternal wolf]

so, im a bit confused on where our damage mainly comes from as outlaw

[white marten]

Why not SS specifically? Not enough cb build before 5 sec window runs out?

[white marten]

In ST or AoE?

[eternal wolf]

aoe m+

[gaunt phoenix]

because SS can proc unseen blade at any moment and you dont know it

[white marten]

Blade flurry

[white marten]

Makes sense. Ty

[gaunt phoenix]

most of your damage is from using vanish every 22 seconds