outlaw

[cinder relic]

What's a specific cheap shitty fix Ur talking about

[keen belfry]

Saph didn’t expand he just copy pastad

[cinder relic]

Most people complain about shit like rtb, and crackshot rn

[late swallow]

https://www.wowhead.com/mop-classic/guide/classes/rogue/combat/dps-overview-pve

[cinder relic]

So both of those would have to go

[late swallow]

this is what people want

[keen belfry]

Up rtb rolls by 1 no cap

Don’t delete rtb

[violet bison]

Roll the bones p cool

[late swallow]

rtb needs to be more engaging imo

it should be an empowered spell

the more you charge, the more buffs you get

[keen belfry]

2/3/5 would be chill rolls for law

[frail veldt]

LOOOOOOOOOL he does

holy shit I didnt expect that

[thorn river]

Rtb is abit to much rng i think, bad rolls tank dps, god rolls instant op

[gaunt phoenix]

i think there is a bit of a reliance on rtb buffs rn

[frail veldt]

tbh rtb isnt that much of our rng

well it is

[late swallow]

solo has spoken

i have an opinion now

[frail veldt]

but I feel like fatal flouriush is the biggest culprit

honestly

missing procs feels worse even with fucking 6 buffs up

than having good FF procs with only 2 buffs

no cap

[keen belfry]

1fth made this worse right

[gaunt phoenix]

ye

[high girder]

Just give outlaw a new mastery and make the current one a passive. Cause that's basically all it is anyway. Then just give outlaw mop WW mastery but instead of brew charges being what we ramp in a fight make it dice lmao.

[slate forge]

Bring back the MOP buffs green yellow red lol

[balmy topaz]

CTO should be outlaw mastery

[gaunt phoenix]

well in general, if KIR is lightyears ahead of HO, then outlaw relies on rtb buffs more

Cuz kir is just a roundabout way of more rtb uptime

[cinder relic]

What

[frail veldt]

I didnt even bother

just move on

too early for that shit

[balmy topaz]

[jolly geyser]

its evening here

[gaunt phoenix]

Which is not inherently an issue but does allow more low rng points to exist

[sullen wyvern]

are we fantisizing about outlaw mastery again

[sharp hinge]

theyre currently more concerned on RP and housing than they are about specs and bugs

[high girder]

It was a dumb joke cause they are on the shitty bandaid fix thing again idk.

[jolly geyser]

make outlaw mastery make us

[keen belfry]

Law needs to run pc + gs = law needs to run 1fth = law needs broadside = law really relies on buff uptime = current tier set helps us function (even if cringe) = I think blizz should look into how rtb functions

[frail veldt]

welllll

idk

[slate forge]

What bandaid fixes we get no fixes lmao

[near rock]

half the time I can't tell if its an "english second language" moment or just pepega

[keen belfry]

Y

[sullen wyvern]

Gonna miss our 17% chance to roll 5 out of rtb not gonna lie

[timber knoll]

does the fact that it's not very good in mythic raiding need addressing as well?

[frail veldt]

I dont think 1fth would feel so bad if we didnt rely so heavily on rng sources of energy

1fth would slow down st

but it would consistently slow it down

[keen belfry]

This is true, true

[fading coral]

How exactly does Hidden Opportunity create a 10% haste breakpoint, or Keep it Rolling a 20% haste breakpoint?

[vapid blaze]

maybe fth shouldnt be a 2 pointer

[frail veldt]

I really think the feast or famine nature of our energy rn is the root of every single "feelsbad" moment in the rotation

[vivid vessel]

takem talent

[frail veldt]

MAYBE the rng of rolling like buried treasure 4 times in a row

but thats super rare

[sullen wyvern]

super rarre? I wish

[frail veldt]

I mean it objectively is

[glass mortar]

!haste

[ornate heath]

A properly geared Outlaw's stat volume will look like Vers > Haste* > Crit > Mastery.

*But Haste has a **requirement ** because Adrenaline Rush scales your GCD based on haste, up to 25%.

The KIR build wants ~19% haste from rating, so it becomes 25% after Alacrity. 18% or 20% is close enough and not a problem. Don't play KIR with lower than 18% haste.

The HO build gets Take 'em by Surprise, so its haste requirement is technically ~9%., but it continues to want haste just for energy. You will likely optimize towards 14-18% haste, not a strict number, just sim.

You need to use Raidbots Top Gear to determine what haste pieces to use. You can also get ~4.2% haste from a flask. This can be equal or better than Vers flask if you need it for either build.

[glass mortar]

@fading coral

[keen belfry]

Yuh this may be right. I could be wrong attributing the downtimes to broadside when it’s actually just energy

[frail veldt]

its probably a mix of both

[cinder relic]

Addressing this would require a rework of the spec from the ground up to be something totally different than what it is and has always been.

[frail veldt]

but broadside has both good and bad moments

[gaunt phoenix]

1. both builds want to reach 25% haste during adrenaline rush, after Alacrity bonus (5%)

2. HO builds get Take Em By Surprise talent, which is +10% haste with basically perma uptime

3. KIR builds dont use Takem so it must have 20% (technically 19%) raw haste to reach 25%

[frail veldt]

it feels bad to not have cuz it feels great to have

but energy either feels like nothing when you have it

or feels like SHIT when you dont

[sullen wyvern]

Are we still having the same issue on s3 that we are forced to spam SS for UB procs?

[cinder relic]

If you want the spec to be good in mythic raiding every season, give it a big cooldown, delete restless blades, and go from there

[frail veldt]

and that to me is the epitome of a bad system

it only has a negative impact by its existence

[timber knoll]

going into this xpac they made haste required, but it's not like we got more powerful, we just had to dilute vers and crit with haste. like we had to stack a lot of haste to get back to where we were

[jolly geyser]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/747567444536852591/1397258263673831555/mirror.jpeg?ex=688111a9&is=687fc029&hm=11376d70c2e4c35cc1a266f6c6b545ba2e9f08f5d557a74538d1de87ef55c3c0&=&format=webp&width=1027&height=685

[frail veldt]

tax

[slate forge]

rather be bad in raid so we can be playable in m+

[jolly geyser]

I rather be bad in both

[frail veldt]

Yeah Im still of the opinion that one big cooldown for outlaw would go a long way and would be worth the "cost" to our identity of having no big cds

[covert heart]

Bad in both is idea

[cinder relic]

I'd rather specs in this game be unique and special even if it means being weak in some content some times

[fading coral]

ty guys

it's been a very hot minute since I last saw anything mentioned anywhere about stat breakpoints

you guys are living in the stone ages

[sullen wyvern]

i don't mind of outlaw is not meta for raid

is not like im getting hall of fame either way

[near rock]

I do mind

[jolly geyser]

remember to get 7.5% hit and expertise

[near rock]

dang m+ers

[covert heart]

I am more of an mplus player i just use raid for the gear so thats fine if isnt that awesome

[fading coral]

🫡

[timber knoll]

well it's not sometimes though sadly, it's all times. but i like different sspecs having different damage profiles, it gives the game variety

[frail veldt]

I like that outlaw can parse in raid even in a shitty pug with no externals or favorable raid timers

[loud garden]

Atp it feels criminal that outlaw has to spend 2 talents on fth

[covert heart]

I do like that it doesnt need pi to parse haha

[fading coral]

probably because barely anyone plays the spec

[keen belfry]

Not his point cuh!

[frail veldt]

hows that impact it

its a percentile

[fading coral]

people bad

[frail veldt]

yes

exactly

people bad

regardless of how large of a sample size you take

my point haha

[keen belfry]

Bolvar cooking rn

[frail veldt]

cooked more like

gottem

[slate forge]

If you want rogue rebuff your going to have the reroll player play assa not outlaw

Debuff*

[keen belfry]

Nuh uh

[frail veldt]

nah you can just play outlaw

you just have to be really good

[cinder relic]

There have also been plenty of outlaw tiers where people just don't play the spec even when it's just as good, or better lol

[civic zephyr]

so because its less popular, it should be neglected more?

[cinder relic]

What

[keen belfry]

Saph cooking rn

[frail veldt]

how in the world did you read that lol?

[keen belfry]

Where’d he get that from

[timber knoll]

is there a correlation between class/spec iteration and popularity

[near rock]

I was gonna say, in regards to this statement, the spec has been arguably good for both tiers this expansion so far according to the data

[frail veldt]

hahahahahaha

[lone crow]

this is so true

[frail veldt]

theres one in the opposite direction

[loud garden]

people always copy rwf and outlaw is almost never played in it, doesnt mean its bad

[frail veldt]

p sure blizzard has stated they spend more time on the popular specs

because it impacts more players

[cinder relic]

Not directly no

[frail veldt]

which makes sense

tbh

so its not that they intentionally ignore the less popular specs

[civic zephyr]

woah let a guy misunderstand something, my bad king

[frail veldt]

but they do care more if theres an issue with a very popular spec

[fiery viper]

Not entirely sure. SP doesn't seem that popular yet it's seen an immense amount of changes almost every expa, while windwalker (also not super popular) has been the same shit forever

[keen belfry]

Is Saph popo?

[frail veldt]

sp is moderately popular

also sp gets random reworks

[timber rune]

@tender sedge just want to see if he appears here too

[frail veldt]

and then gets ignored

in between reworks haha

[jolly geyser]

yearly sp rework

[frail veldt]

thats just the history of sp

its a weird spec

[fiery viper]

well he said spec iteration, not quality ones

[tender sedge]

yo noob

[frail veldt]

more of an exception than anything

[civic zephyr]

nah sometimes im just REALLY fucking stupid and forget how to read a sentence with meaning xD

[keen belfry]

Sounds like popo

[mighty pivot]

yup

[jolly geyser]

has sp ever been just good?

[cinder relic]

Yeah I mean, Ur never gonna change people's inherent bias towards the spec until the highest end of players recognize it as well

[civic zephyr]

LMAO

[gaunt phoenix]

i feel like when outlaw suddenly gained 15% overall after the bugfixes all the talking points about target cap and shit stopped happening cause 98% of people are just happy with doing big dam

[cinder relic]

Literally

[frail veldt]

so true and so dumb

[timber rune]

why is outlaw chat so much busier than sin chat.. wtf is this favoritism

[frail veldt]

YEUP

[cinder relic]

I agree

[loud garden]

high apm gamers

[frail veldt]

I literally said that before they fixed it

"would you rather be uncapped and B tier or capped and S tier"

and everyone said capped and S tier

[near rock]

Right I agree on that, I'm just saying when you say "if you want it to be good in mythic raid", whereas its already a decent to good spec overall

[frail veldt]

like

outlaw is only good in mythic raid as a result of tuning

its kit inherently sucks for mythic though

[keen belfry]

Yeah I used to care about the target cap and not having a cd because stuff like “cds have giga value in hard keys” while still true, other things have value too. Like doing big dam

[frail veldt]

it has no tools that can be used to do mythic raid stuff other than its mobility

[cinder relic]

Good as in, the defacto go to spec

[frail veldt]

outlaw has the most useless damge profile in the game

for mythic raid

[keen belfry]

I was gonna say

Not true

[cinder relic]

People genuinely don't understand mythic raiding at all it's really annoying trying to discuss shit like profile

[keen belfry]

But raid yeah

[cinder relic]

Enhance shaman was broken for like a year straight with a straight line damage profile

[near rock]

yeah straight line is not an issue

[grim spear]

I’m starting to feel like they’re intentionally working to eliminate the Rogue player base
It’s probably the most complex spec rn, requiring tons of addons and WAs
but these are going to get axed

[cinder relic]

Are there tiers, or fights, where cooldowns have value? Yes, obviously, but holy fuck people act like a flat profile is like, literal 9/11 worst thing of all time

For all of shadowlands for example, rogue cooldowns literally did not matter, there wasn't a single fight where sub or sin cooldowns actually did anything on a fight

[grim spear]

They want every spec to become simple, so Rogue eventually needs a massive rework

[cinder relic]

Sub was flat as fuck for the entire tier, was the go to spec

[grim spear]

But before that happens, doing nothing helps reduce wasted effort and lowers the population, which in turn softens the backlash when they eventually make those big changes.

[frail veldt]

flat is only useful when its overall is the best

the profile is still useless

[gaunt phoenix]

tbf the talking point prolly comes from the profile rarely being a "good thing"

it either "doesn't matter" or hurts you

[frail veldt]

but obviously doing the MOST dps is useful

but its not because of the profile

when I say profile i mean the shape of the dps

not the overall dps

[glass mortar]

i cant remember any fight off the top of my head where people were aiming to get linear damage profiles to overcome a mechanic

linear damage can be fine

[cinder relic]

This isn't exactly true though, there have been fights where a flat profile is just straight up an advantage

[glass mortar]

everytime i remember it being it was cause it was like 10% ahead of other profiles tho

[cinder relic]

Denathrius being a final boss where legit, a flat profile was just better

[frail veldt]

yeah it can be "fine"

but a spec has to be a top spec

to be useful with a flat profile

[cinder relic]

No shit you play the spec that's tuned the highest

[frail veldt]

not always

sometimes you bring a spec for its profile

thats what im saying

rofl

youll never bring a flat profile spec for its profile if its not tuned the highest

[glass mortar]

my whole point is its far more often in this game u bring a spec that isnt tuned top of the line for its profile on a fight then it is u bring a linear damage spec that isnt overtuned

[frail veldt]

which is why I said outlaw has the most useless damage profile in the game (for mythic raid)

[glass mortar]

🤷

anything can be viable in this game

[frail veldt]

also true

[glass mortar]

its all numbers at the end of the day

[near rock]

theres more than just "straight line" or "burst" to a spec though. there's "how is the damage divided" or "how well can it cleave 2-3 targets consistently"

[frail veldt]

yeah outlaw does have quick cleave

that would be something useful

but unfortunately usually other specs outshine it there too

[gaunt phoenix]

how well can it enter dragon flying between intermissions without losing everything

[frail veldt]

lolol

when was the last time outlaw was not the top dps rogue spec and was brought to raid for its "profile"

[glass mortar]

how well does the type of mechanics blizzard does on 99% of endbosses now a day completely fuckover ur spec

the outlaw special

[keen belfry]

Wasn’t sub not even “overtuned” it was just made for amirdrassil boss designs? Wasn’t it middle of the pack for “sim dps”

[frail veldt]

yeah

[gaunt phoenix]

well ye

[frail veldt]

it did INSANE damage for amps

and there were lots of amps

[gaunt phoenix]

that's a good thing

[cinder relic]

U realize that there are fights that fuck over other specs as well, just by design right

[glass mortar]

this tier was good tho

[frail veldt]

subs a perfect example of bringing hte profile not the overall

[frail veldt]

ofc but outlaw more so than others

[cinder relic]

No

[glass mortar]

yes of course... everyone has a fight that favors them and fights that dont

[random stirrup]

Rik reverb intermission starting at exactly 2 mins hehe

[glass mortar]

id say i solidly believe cd specs are favored more by raid fights over the last 10 years then linear specs tho

[frail veldt]

lolol

[gaunt phoenix]

I don't M raid enough to really declare if outlaw tends to get fucked in raid more often than others

[glass mortar]

hell half the time they make timers around specs cds it feels like now a day with how well shit lines up

[frail veldt]

I mean theres only a few different cd cadences

[cinder relic]

Yes, they design raid encounters around cooldowns

[fathom bramble]

Cd specs will always be more favored. I’m not sure it’s possible to even design a fight that favors flat damage instead of at most making it fair

[cinder relic]

Denathrius

[frail veldt]

yeah and they do like intermissions/downtime in raid fights

tbh they could make a fight that favors outlaw

they would just need to require a damage amp at random intervals

[glass mortar]

im gunna be honest i dont remember dennys class design for other specs that well

[frail veldt]

that you couldnt anticipate

[keen belfry]

Why was denathrius flat profile favored?

[fathom bramble]

In what way ?

[frail veldt]

if there was a required dps check

[glass mortar]

i see the race was stacking the fuck out of unholy dk and hunters tho

were unholy dks and hunters linear damage that season?

[frail veldt]

every 10-45 seconds randomly

[glass mortar]

or something

[frail veldt]

outlaw coudl be good haha

with added cleave

like sudden adds that spawn

[lone crow]

no

[fathom bramble]

Didn’t that fight have a final phase push and waiting specifically for cds for people

[frail veldt]

that need killing

[cinder relic]

The spec was high st tuned, had very good 2-4 target cleave

[fossil lintel]

They should just let us restealth during intermissions

[gaunt phoenix]

was also like 11 tiers ago

[glass mortar]

doesnt seem like world first guilds on that fight were bringing very many linear damage specs to the prog

idk

maybe it favored linear damage to non world first stuff?

[cinder relic]

All of p2 was 2-4 target

[lone crow]

yes but its purely tuning lol other rogue specs were even worse until assa got buffed at one point

[fathom bramble]

That’s not a boss that favors flat damage it’s just outlaw being tuned well enough to win on 2 targets though

[lone crow]

thats why u played outlaw

legit only reason

if u could u played no rogues at all anyways

[frail veldt]

yeah show me a tier outlaw wasnt the top rogue spec and was brought to mythic raid prog haha

[keen belfry]

I’m confused by guys argument rn? A fight that requires high ST and cleave is flat favored? Can cd specs not do high st and cleave?

[cinder relic]

The fact that you did high damage the entire encounter was a huge boon tho because you did good damage on every single add set

[frail veldt]

depends on the frequency of the cleave

if its a system that exponentially gets harder

then you need to k eep adds low constantly

[keen belfry]

How often were the adds

[frail veldt]

so youd need flat damage

[cinder relic]

Most specs had to commit Cd's to certain add sets and then couldn't have them for the next set

Or they had to send Cd's on the adds that had to die on a timer

[frail veldt]

yeah cd management on that fight was awkward cuz the adds werent big enough to need full cds but were big enough to need something

iirc

[cinder relic]

And then didn't have it for the actual boss

[frail veldt]

but again

outlaw was well tuned at that time

so whos to say that wanst the main reason it was brought

[cinder relic]

Being tuned well is a requirement wtf do u mean

[near rock]

right but the profile is the point here

[frail veldt]

its not that was my point

[cinder relic]

Ur never bringing a spec thats tuned like shit

[frail veldt]

I didnt say like shit

but you bring a non top tuned spec sometimes

[keen belfry]

Me so confused

[frail veldt]

for its profile

[cinder relic]

Even post sin buff, outlaw was still better on that fight

[keen belfry]

Does one fight 5 years ago prove a point

[lone crow]

when assa got buffed add dmg was not needed at all

[near rock]

I mean its not just that fight

[frail veldt]

yeah in general outlaw has a not very useful damage profile even when it is tuned well

[cinder relic]

U asked the question "when is flat better"

I answered

My bad

[keen belfry]

True my bad cuh

[glass mortar]

ok its a little worrying for me that we are discussing one of what i assume is ur best examples of fights that favored outlaw/linear damage, and im scrolling thru the order of world first race kills

and most of them dont even have a rogue on this fight

[frail veldt]

well no we said in general outlaws damage profile is the least useful in the game

which is true still

[glass mortar]

rather then bring outlaw

[frail veldt]

haha

[glass mortar]

they brought nobody

[near rock]

I mean thats a different issue altogether

[frail veldt]

and again they didnt bring it necessarily because flat but because well tuned

which is literally what I said originally

[lone crow]

because rogue was shit in general and outlaw was just a bit less shit

[glass mortar]

did this fight really favor outlaw as a spec or was outlaw just theo nly rogue spec good at it

[jolly geyser]

will there be a rogue in rwf thou? not like it matters but it might

[cinder relic]

I just have cancer

[glass mortar]

like are these specs they are stacking linear damage

[frail veldt]

LOL jfc

[near rock]

community perception shapes comps substantially more than you realize

even for the top top guilds

[frail veldt]

very true

[keen belfry]

Yes but flat good profile so being flat denathrius flat good ok ?

[glass mortar]

well ok i tend to think that the way world first guilds create their comps and beat fights is close to the most "optimized" considering they are facing it when its the most difficult

i dont mean to argue that outlaw was so shit on this fight nobody should have brought it

[lone crow]

so good no one played it

[cinder relic]

Who the fuck cares about wf

[glass mortar]

or that the meta should follow that

nobody is facing content this hard

[cinder relic]

Who in here is in a rwf guild

Everybody raise their hand

[keen belfry]

Me

[frail veldt]

unfortunately every CE guild

[cinder relic]

Nobody here raids in wf, so what's used in wf isn't relevant

[keen belfry]

We just lose that race by like 1800 spots

[cinder relic]

No?

[frail veldt]

just how people copy m+ top comps

all the way down to 2k io

lololol

[glass mortar]

idk i guess when ur argument is "this fight favoredl inear damage due to these designs and outlaw was the best rogue spec on it" it worries me when alot of top guilds didnt even run a rogue on it rather then run linear damage outlaw???

which of these specs the ybrought was the linear one

[wide flare]

What is the next tier like in terms of overall viability of outlaw?

[glass mortar]

maybe it was WW

[frail veldt]

"LF UHDK FOR MY +14(NO ROGUES)"

[keen belfry]

My guild gets cooked in RWF every tier

[frail veldt]

people are so dumb

[cinder relic]

https://tenor.com/view/ishowspeed-try-not-to-laugh-gif-7682731162751353849

[jolly geyser]

spiid

[frail veldt]

sadly whats used in the top 0.1% does heavily impact all levels of play

[civic zephyr]

[frail veldt]

in fact in dota 2 they actually started making vods/game logs of top games private by default now

so that the meta is less impacted by apes doing monkey see monkey do

its just the modern gamer

they copy paste

no brain

[rotund depot]

It’s a whole vibe

[keen belfry]

I’m going to absorb all that was typed out in here real quick and come back with a conclusion on flat vs not flat

Brb

[frail veldt]

LOL

imma drive to work cant wait to hear what you come up with awang

[glass mortar]

i mean ur damage profile is nearly pointless to 99% of the playerbase idk why u act like looking at the racers is silly

[jolly geyser]

I havent read anything mostly, I just shitposted

[glass mortar]

if the people facing this fight at its hardest with the most min maxed comps isnt bringing linear damage

does the fight really favor linear damage

idk

[civic zephyr]

im just here

[fathom bramble]

I’m just not really convinced flat was actually better on that encounter. I think it was just the rare end boss that approaches fair

[cinder relic]

Rogue wasn't tuned that well in CN

[civic zephyr]

[keen belfry]

I have returned. I vote CD spec is generally better. Flat can be good mhm? Yes. But also, it can also not be good mhm. Cd spec always good.

[cinder relic]

I personally feel as though flat was a huge advantage on that fight because you could contribute a lot to the entire encounter rather than having to send all of your damage into the adds that you had to jump to the different platform

[frail veldt]

sound like the turtle from kung fu panda

[frail veldt]

but as a general trend would you say that flat or cd is more useful overall in a typical raid fight

[cinder relic]

Probably cooldowns but nowhere near the level that you prescribe the value at

[frail veldt]

I didnt give a level

[delicate seal]

[frail veldt]

I just said outlaw has the least useful profile

[cinder relic]

Whatever your level is I can tell it's too much

[frail veldt]

it could be close

[fiery viper]

ya they ruined my discord bot

[frail veldt]

I just said it was the least

[frail veldt]

gitfukt

[jolly geyser]

[cinder relic]

If you sent your cds on the adds on platforms on denathrius u just did 0 boss damage

And a lot of specs you would have to send on those adds

[frail veldt]

sure

but those fights are few and far between

[keen belfry]

I think this is objective truth no cappi but guy saw it as end all be all when yes there’s some nuance maybe sure yeah true no cap

[fathom bramble]

Another way of looking at this is that you needed cd specs to handle those adds

[keen belfry]

CDs are good

[fathom bramble]

This is a boon

[frail veldt]

yeah im not saying "oUtLaW iS AlwAyS bAd iN rAid"

Im just saying

its the least useful damage profile in the game(for mythic raid)

[jolly geyser]

its like a raid is a team of diff things

[frail veldt]

I didnt say its never useful

I didnt say its always bad

[frank finch]

oh boy this again

[keen belfry]

If Vegas had odds out on next tier, I’m slamming the odds that CDs provide more value

[cinder relic]

Sure but most specs in the game are cd specs so it's not like rogue was the difference maker in moving the needle here

[frail veldt]

I didnt say its 1/10 as good as CD specs

I just said "least useful"

[cinder relic]

So you could let the cd specs cd, and let the flat specs flat

[fathom bramble]

Cds mean you can send on whatever matters the most

[keen belfry]

There was so much 2 target cleave and random adds on court

Cd specs got fucked that fight

It felt so bad to sit on my ascendance on court the drop a NUKE AND GO BOOOM AND DELETE THE BOSS BOOOM I LOVED MY CDS NO CAP

Mmm I think I liked court in noobar palace

Ass to prog tho

[cinder relic]

While there are fights, and tiers where outlaw struggles, like amirdrasil, in most encounters it legit doesn't matter if you do, or don't have a cooldown on a fight.

And yes, you CN say "well it's only neutral or a downside" but forget that kill timers are also a factor of playing the game, even on prog. If Ur a 2m spec and the fight ends at 5:45 Ur spec sucks

[sharp hinge]

i think he meant DN

not CN

[keen belfry]

What’s DN Draco?

[gaunt phoenix]

holy ptr patch

[sharp hinge]

[gaunt phoenix]

idk what's in it tho

[frank finch]

[keen belfry]

And surely a 2 min spec has done really good damage at 545 fight timer

[frank finch]

baited

wtf

[glass mortar]

if cd specs were tuned properly id agree. if u looked good if the fight ended right after cds, bad right before cds, and average if it fell between

[sharp hinge]

https://tenor.com/view/testing-new-deez-nuts-ha-teeth-gif-15758045

[cinder relic]

Depends how much damage is concentrated in a cd

[glass mortar]

more often then not cd specs look good on all timers except fights right before ur cds and godmode if the fight aligned with them tho

[keen belfry]

Can u ping me when it comes in on vacay rn I give you ping awang perms

[frank finch]

dont se eanything

[cinder relic]

Sub parses are almost entirely decided by kill timers for example lol

[proper bear]

!weaponmacro

!weaponswapmacro

[gaunt phoenix]

#1095774924615983195 message

[proper bear]

!macro

[ornate heath]

Macroing gs is relatively "ok", be aware that it wont ever be entirely optimal: target swapping in m+ or putting it on a dying target for example. You can macro it to all your abilities.

[frank finch]

[keen belfry]

Solo you have ping awang perms

[frank finch]

datamine coming soon

[proper bear]

who got the weapon swap macro

[glass mortar]

11.2.7 kspree changes???????

?!?!?!?!

[proper bear]

wtb

[gaunt phoenix]

!weaponswap

[ornate heath]

You can swap most weapons in keys. Outlaw swaps between the Nightfall event weapon for trash and a better offhand for bosses, such as Capo (change the name):

/equipslot 17 Nightfall Curseblade's Cudgel
/equipslot 17 Capo's Molten Knuckles```
If your offhand is the same name as your mainhand or you have two of them in your bags, then the above macro won't work, you have to swap by bag slot:
```#showtooltip 17
/equipslot 17 Nightfall Curseblade's Cudgel
/equipslot 17 <bag #> <bag slot #>```
Note that **Gallywix's Iron Thumb** cannot be swapped in keys.

[keen belfry]

What if fight ends 6:21 or even 6:23

[covert heart]

But what about 6:22

[keen belfry]

Sounds cooked

[cinder relic]

Sin getting an extra cd set in execute would be huge yeah

So a 6:20 would be good

[covert heart]

What about 6:19?

[keen belfry]

I think all cd specs need to rise up and afk if a fight timer ends before last 2 minutes come back

Now that would be OP

[cinder relic]

Most specs in wow are cd specs, therefore cd specs are overtuned more often than not

[keen belfry]

It’s all anecdotal on my end but man whenever I play a cd spec I think way more often that not “I’m glad I have this cd”

Any CD having complainers in the chat I virtually spank them

[vapid blaze]

yeah idk having cds is just better in most cases than not having ANY

[vivid vessel]

all of you typing in this chat are wrong

[keen belfry]

Even me?

[glass mortar]

especially u

[covert heart]

Actually not gonna lie I like that outlaw doesnt have a major cd but I could be in the minority

[mighty pivot]

but you are typing too

[hybrid crown]

I like that too

[toxic star]

@vivid vessel you know it

soz 45mins late

[lone crow]

especially zac

[covert heart]

Main reason I started playing outlaw

[dawn talon]

i think the bigger thing is that a spec that cannot move damage for something important needs to be able to do something else relevant

[keen belfry]

I do too! My point is having a cd is always good 🙂 sometimes I feel so bad playing outlaw on hard pull

[cinder relic]

Same. I like that specs in the game are unique

[frank finch]

huge patch notes incoming this is it

[vivid vessel]

wtf so late

[dawn talon]

whether that means spawning an addd that needs to die right after everyone gets out of cds

[vapid blaze]

you can like it
its still worse most of the time

[cinder relic]

Most of the time it doesn't matter

[dawn talon]

or just being overtuned numerically

[cinder relic]

It does suck when it does tho

[covert heart]

I feel like its good to have consistent damage and some peeps who just burst shit down

[keen belfry]

Why did neither of you idiots remind me to remind myself in 10 days to get leech @vivid vessel @toxic star

[toxic star]

does that mean 8days from now?

[mighty pivot]

oh no you will summon th..

[toxic star]

what has thd to do with this

[keen belfry]

I’m back on Saturday I think

I think Saturday

The next next saturdsy

Not this one

[dawn talon]

i like it but i would also like it if we did something specific and exceptional to make up for the lack of a cd instead of being completely tuning reliant

[jolly geyser]

anyone else not bothering with underpin cause its annoying?

[toxic star]

everyone else done with it since week 2 or something

[keen belfry]

What if I come back from my vacation right before my CDs come back is my vacation fucked? Maybe flat profile is better for denathrius and vacations

[lone crow]

LOOL

good question tho

[keen belfry]

I’m not sure answer yet

[vivid vessel]

any

[glass mortar]

let ar fall off

[dawn talon]

ww for example is really often able to move damage without sacrificing very much, so even when the tuning is mid sometimes you go "oh this is a ww fight"

[vivid vessel]

leech or avoidance

[lone crow]

zac

[glass mortar]

this fight is 99% about kicking bombs into adds and 1% about dpsing him (during shield)

[dawn talon]

it's much less often you see outlaw with mid tuning and go "this is an outlaw fight"

[lone crow]

where

[glass mortar]

dont try to play it like an uptime fight

[vivid vessel]

on your gear

[lone crow]

on what content

[keen belfry]

Pve

[vivid vessel]

high keys

[lone crow]

outlaw exclusive?

[cinder relic]

We do exceptional damage outside of Cd's

[lone crow]

prolly leech ngl u can perma feint anyways

but avoidance is cozy

[keen belfry]

Leech has more stat than avoidance too

[wintry solar]

When you have no CDs, naturally you would. (Half joking)

[vivid vessel]

ye

thats the typing point for me

if i get leech the number is higher

so its better

[keen belfry]

Mhm I agree

Or

I said it

So yes u agree

Good

[glass mortar]

avoidance saves u energy u might spend on feint

[jolly geyser]

yee,had brann fuck it up few times somehow also,prolly doing it last weekend before patch so I have time pressure

[glass mortar]

leech saves ur lazy, good for nothing healers time they should be spending healing u

[lone crow]

its not black and white tho, some dungeons avoidance can be better, some leech

[glass mortar]

smh

[proper bear]

For the cudgel swap, is it worth swapping to 680 wep after the proc or purely keep on except for bosses?

[glass mortar]

keep on except for bosses

[lone crow]

for example in AD in s3 df i always changed my enchants to leech

because avoidance was piss there

[glass mortar]

can swap off for like 1-2 target pulls also

[gaunt phoenix]

you keep it because vanish resets it

[glass mortar]

wouldnt swap it in combat ever unless u are mid kspree

[gaunt phoenix]

On trash

[proper bear]

Please not this again

[glass mortar]

and u are in one of those situations (1 target or 1-2 targets)

[proper bear]

This is huge!

[keen belfry]

We don’t tryhard that hard anymore so get this outta here

[toxic star]

casual

[keen belfry]

Leech more stat + leechier

Xeph do you think dragon dmg profile is piss cheeks

[cinder relic]

@vivid vessel https://x.com/Kalamazii/status/1894293589334560859/photo/1 this is who is getting warlock to Sim 7m

Liquid | Kalamazi (@Kalamazii)

Busy night with Patch prep, so we having Dot Hogs for first dinner.

Shoutout to powder ranch.

X · Feb 25, 2025, 7:49 AM

[keen belfry]

I always say it’s the ranged ret paladin but I speak with no real knowledge on how dev actually does dmg in keys

U can golf on your targets or something right

For decent prio?

[gaunt phoenix]

gulf garf

[keen belfry]

In golf

@toxic star

[mighty pivot]

that's what a culinary war crime looks like

[glass mortar]

u do the dragon flamey breath

then u gulf garf

and the pack is dead

thats evoker this season iirc

everything else is superfluous

[gaunt phoenix]

why is saeldur crashing out in simc commits

[glass mortar]

LOL

[keen belfry]

I had a dragon friend of mine saying they do ethical m+ dmg

[glass mortar]

oh i might have some insight into that

[keen belfry]

Is there actually a PTR patch solo

[dawn talon]

taking the crust off is insane

[toxic star]

engulf ye

[dawn talon]

kalamazi continues to eat like a 10 year old and at this point i have nothing but respect for it

that's the goat

[vivid vessel]

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/dungeon-testing-july-22nd-july-29th/2135932

its dungeon stuffs for now

[toxic star]

its not entirely wrong

[keen belfry]

If you tell me dragon has good dmg profile I will disagree cuz ur biased if yoi tell me it’s bad dmg profile I’ll agree with u

[gaunt phoenix]

well yea changes to the game files but for all I know they are encounter stuff

[keen belfry]

Choose wisely

[toxic star]

Enemy forces increased by 10%
required, im assuming

[vapid blaze]

casual 40% nerf to boss lmao

[toxic star]

or is it granted

[keen belfry]

So we don’t get anything chill?

[mighty pivot]

holy

[vivid vessel]

ye

this one is wild tho

that first area will be

vastly different

[toxic star]

?

dies faster, needs to get killed, and will heal less

idk how much health it currently has but that seems like it at most gets 1 heal off

[vivid vessel]

ye maybe idk

i hate these sticks

[thorn river]

those are the murlocs right ?

[vivid vessel]

im on a pack with 20 nameplates

and i have to click on them

like

xd

[keen belfry]

Have they deleted the music boss in that tazavesh Dungeon yet?

[vivid vessel]

eh i guess i need a macro

[toxic star]

first log i see where it went off, 1 heal is 8.7m in a +14

so thats nothing

[cinder relic]

Have you ever seen the aoe cleaning clothes

[dawn talon]

no ?

[vivid vessel]

idk, when i was doing 18/19 of that key on ptr

if you get 2 of them

[keen belfry]

Hello is this thing on

[vivid vessel]

it can very quickly be legit impossible to deal with

[toxic star]

and it has 20.7m health on 14, now less

[cinder relic]

He takes piles of dirty clothes and clean clothes and then "aoes" them together to clean the dirty clothes

[gaunt phoenix]

😨

[vivid vessel]

smart

[fathom bramble]

yeah I think for as much as I might complain about cd vs. flat we shouldn't ever lose being flat

[toxic star]

l mao

[keen belfry]

Mmm see no cap his cleaning regimen probably requires a non flat damage profile because his stench requires full CDs

[fathom bramble]

it's more fun, and unique things shouldn't be homogenized further for no reason in general

[keen belfry]

Another point for the good guys

[fathom bramble]

I would mostly just like to see us gain some kind of meaningful damage profile niche that doesn't take away our cdless nature

like an execute

[cinder relic]

I'd agree with that

I like that the game is filled with unique things

Even if they come with baggage

[glass mortar]

granted: outlaw new mastery is another version of devoker (its reverse execute)

[gaunt phoenix]

i think the strength of pc will show itself in this raid

[glass mortar]

https://tenor.com/view/monkeys-paw-paw-monkey-gif-17535679

[cinder relic]

Yer

[jolly geyser]

was it 8 bosses?

[glass mortar]

maybe im just grumpy old man

[keen belfry]

PC has 0 value at 8 bosses

[glass mortar]

taking PC to do big add damage on a fight doesnt thrill me when i know im losing 10%+ st for it

i always saw law as the ethical pad spec

yea look at all this BF damage but im in almost full st build

i do this for free

PC is not free

i hate PC

#1 pc hater

[gaunt phoenix]

well if you cleave onto the boss

[covert kestrel]

PC more like Piss Creation!

[wintry solar]

What about unholy wounds?

[keen belfry]

Wrong gif my bad

[mighty pivot]

what was the right one

[covert kestrel]

memorial day sparkle flag gif is always the right gif

[wintry solar]

I hate how wounds has such good potential but blizz doesn't know how to capitalize on it

[mighty pivot]

the wouns champyun

[wintry solar]

THA WOONZ

Banger character

[cinder relic]

I feel if I went thru Ur DMs you were one of the fuckers upset that pc was a shit talent for years

Not DMs just messages

[glass mortar]

it has been a shit talent for years

shit as in nobody ever wanted to play it cause its like the opposite of what they wanted in outlaw

not because of its tuning

[keen belfry]

Guy and Weran dm a lot it seems

[glass mortar]

sims said it was good but we all thought it was shit prob cause of the bug

different flavors of shit tho

[wintry solar]

Guy and Weran good cop bad cop dynamic

[glass mortar]

numerical vs design

[slate plaza]

Ah yes dooming about PC

[glass mortar]

uve definitly seen me say "we thought pc was shit for years cause of this bug" but that was me refering to it numerically

i always hated sacrificing large st talents to get what law should just do inherenitly which is low target cleave

[keen belfry]

Outlaw is fixed if they make fth one talent point btw

[wintry solar]

How much ST do we lose talenting to aoe talents relative to other specs?

[covert kestrel]

unethical shareholder hacks private messages of innocent consumer to improve optics!! i knew it all along

[slate plaza]

The first bf talent not much

Pc is like 8-10% irrc

[glass mortar]

like 14-15% depending on the build

80% of that is just for pc tho

[keen belfry]

And how much do other specs lose

[glass mortar]

varies alot

[keen belfry]

The normal specs

[glass mortar]

we tend to be on the lower end

[cinder relic]

Nah I mean pc was shit got like a year straight and I'm almost positive you complained about the Nerf that happened in df and were upset the talent wasn't viable

[slate plaza]

Some specs are dumpster fires when it comes to swapping and others don’t lose any

Depends on class core design and talent tree

[dawn talon]

u have to be fucking with me

[glass mortar]

i would be very surprised if u found me being upset the talent wasnt viable

[cinder relic]

Dead serious

[glass mortar]

this talent is like the opposite of everything law should do with this pathing

[gaunt phoenix]

i like pc as a thing, i dont like where it is on the tree

[glass mortar]

giving up the most ST damage u can in a talent tradeoff to do really big damage on 2-4 targets feels very odd

[keen belfry]

Aye solo, aye.

[slate plaza]

How are law players feeling about ks rework? I’ve been in Lebanon for like over a month and haven’t touched wow

[keen belfry]

It’s piss but doesn’t kill u, so ok

[cinder relic]

I like it

Not perfect

[glass mortar]

better then live by a bit but still pretty unfortunate

[gaunt phoenix]

Not dying to ks good

Longer duration annoying

Longer cd annoying for fazed

[glass mortar]

and its in every build now

fatebound too

[keen belfry]

Wait how bad is the fazed thing

I totally
Forgot about that

[slate plaza]

Glad general consensus is positive

[covert kestrel]

cool icon tho

[keen belfry]

DUDEEEEEUH!!! UGH!

[slate plaza]

I feel like if the movement slow disappears i would have zero issue

[glass mortar]

it definitly is not but u missed all the doomers this morning

[gaunt phoenix]

just sometimes with target swapping/new packs you will coup without fazed

[fallow hinge]

ur a cool icon tho

[glass mortar]

this ability is still quite flawed

not as bad as the doomers were this morning but

we wait for 12.0 i guess

[covert kestrel]

being a spender and builder combined combined has some weird implications on trickster gameplay loop as well

[slate plaza]

Or like even grapple during ks, so you can drive by killing spree

[gaunt phoenix]

and your main target cant be a shitter mob that dies or you can lose fazed

[slate plaza]

Yeah that’s def interesting ng

[slate plaza]

Do you get stacks if it dies

[gaunt phoenix]

huh

[keen belfry]

It doesn’t cleave like BF does so u do 0
Prio dmg using it

And channel longer

And cd longer

And u want to cancel it

And longer channel so kicking/cc during it bad

And it doesn’t kill u so that’s good

Icon lit

[slate plaza]

Like if you ks a target and it dies mid ks do you still get ub stacks

[quaint mauve]

zac said halved the uptime but idk how much dooming was in that statement

[blissful thunder]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/dD7utabpAvLCek2yXQUSnt

curious if i simmed wrong somehow or smth, but grim codex/buzzer sim higher than whistle/pacemaker rn, perhaps not geared enough? or is it more just those trinkets are annoying to use somehow

[gaunt phoenix]

The UB stacks are granted instantly, and KS is not targeted anyway

so ye

[slate plaza]

Gotcha

[covert kestrel]

GRIM GOATDEX

[blissful thunder]

o god

[keen belfry]

Don’t equip those trinkets ignore sim NOW

[cinder relic]

zac also says the channel is like 5 seconds

[blissful thunder]

kek

just go pacemaker/whislte or what

[keen belfry]

Ye

[glass mortar]

the baseline channel at max duration (that includes supercharger) is 5 seconds

[keen belfry]

Trinkets are ass this tier

[blissful thunder]

gucci

fair, i've noticed that

[glass mortar]

it scales down with ur haste tax and cps of course

[keen belfry]

If a trinket is cringe u don’t use it

[blissful thunder]

appreciado

[daring oxide]

I like Dixie trinket

Vexie

[keen belfry]

LF Dixie trinket

[daring oxide]

[quaint mauve]

if it’s on use , i don’t want it

[gaunt phoenix]

grim codex is not too impressive in raw 5 target sims, i think it's specifically the 90s cooldown that aligns better with Dungeonslice

Which is kinda fake

[blissful thunder]

mmm i just realized i simmed dslice trinkets 💀

[gaunt phoenix]

unless you run the exact events of dslice

[blissful thunder]

i have made the error i yell at people for

[daring oxide]

Big buffs tonight

[keen belfry]

Vai

I’m in Ireland rn can u pick me up

@daring oxide

[covert kestrel]

look for law buffs at the end of the rainbow

[jolly geyser]

what if its double

[frank finch]

we expecting more stuff apart from those m+ tunning?

[jolly geyser]

be negative and be suprised

[covert kestrel]

https://tenor.com/view/birthday-day-let-down-sad-bad-day-celebrate-gif-6086793

[frank finch]

[covert kestrel]

[gaunt phoenix]

dead channel

wait it's been 2 minutes nvm

[covert kestrel]

ks still on cd

[jolly geyser]

maybe all got busy finally

got the yap out

dev, read up

ignore my messages

[daring oxide]

RIP Ozzy

[jolly geyser]

wtf

[wintry solar]

What the fuck

He's right

I cried like a bitch during Mama I'm Coming Home lol

[covert kestrel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mT8maUTzE48

[prisma vessel]

he will be missed

🦇

[covert kestrel]

🦇

[wintry solar]

🦇

[frail veldt]

im honestly blown away he made it this far

[fading escarp]

anything similar to this old macro nowdays :
#showtooltip between the eyes
/cancelaura [nocombat] shadowmeld
/cast !stealth
/cast [nostealth] Ghostly Strike
/cast [stance] between the eyes

?

[vapid blaze]

what if
they do another +st -bf change 🙂

[wintry solar]

Read the room

Gah

[wintry solar]

I jest. Let's not have that >.>

[jolly geyser]

[covert kestrel]

what are you trying to do

[white marten]

Buffs soon boys! Hold steady!!

[unborn basin]

itchy eyepatch

[wintry solar]

[fading escarp]

stop the cast of between the eyes if not in stealth or subterfuge buff

[gaunt phoenix]

oh that's not needed anymore

Bte cd resets when you enter stealth

[covert kestrel]

a) i dont think that worked in the past b) its not a thing cause bte is reset on stealth

damn solo stop undercutting my helpful

[fading escarp]

ty lads

[cinder relic]

Amazing

ABANDON ALL HOPE

[glass mortar]

BASED

[vivid vessel]

haha

are we in tho

[glass mortar]

finally doomer tier lists

[balmy topaz]

@vivid vessel good luck getting ppl in queue

Now mop is out

0 ppl

[dense forge]

Who is ready for 0 rogue changes

[covert heart]

We could get -1 you never know

[dense forge]

i cant wait for 1 button rotation to be fixed

[sullen wyvern]

Almost made me not wanna play anymore

[normal violet]

• KS channel reduced
• KS prioritizes main target
• BF reduced by an additional 10%

[daring oxide]

im so ready

SOON

[wintry solar]

Idk why they add the random target mechanic to KS

That's so dumb

[glass mortar]

well i assumed it was so the animation would look cool

[latent oak]

its bc it looks cool

[glass mortar]

but then zac told me u dont even shoot around randomly anymore

u just shoot in front of u

[covert kestrel]

we are in the "hopium overdose" tier

[random stirrup]

How hard is it to just make it reaper ult man

[wintry solar]

You can keep the anim tho

[frail veldt]

thats what they did

[random stirrup]

Imagine it just hit all nearby targets (reduced beyond 8)

[frail veldt]

oh does repaer ult split damage?

[gaunt phoenix]

Why are boomies a mystery

[random stirrup]

reaper doesn’t do 1 single target hit at a time

[frail veldt]

or just aoe

ah

[jolly geyser]

you usually die unless you suprise

[wintry solar]

Can't have prio problems if every target is prio

[random stirrup]

unlike reaper rogue has cloak!

[jolly geyser]

eyy

he has wraith form

cant pre that ig

[wintry solar]

Rogue has vanish

I mean reaper

Rogue does too

[frail veldt]

nah reaper has blur

not vanish

[craggy kelp]

100% of mobs are prio because they need to die to complete a key

[frail veldt]

he aint invisible

[random stirrup]

It’s netherwalk cuh

[wintry solar]

I wouldn't know

I go outside

[random stirrup]

He’s faster and can’t attack

Same thing!

[jolly geyser]

KS should be that certain ow patch that had speed boost with nano that Ana had

absolute mayhem

[gaunt phoenix]

i miss when overwatch took over the planet

[fading coral]

can ks make you knock people away on locken

[craggy kelp]

Twitch light devastation blood dk was the goats patch

[white marten]

VERY soon!

[jolly geyser]

it aint dead,just on twitch ig

[frail veldt]

the copest of cope

ow is dead

[gaunt phoenix]

Yeah but it held the gaming culture zeitgeist for a good bit

[vapid sundial]

You mean the first two seasons before they for some reason took the servers offline?

[frail veldt]

yeah it def did

[gaunt phoenix]

Same with hearthstone

[rustic moon]

why the fuck all 3 pally specs in there

[jolly geyser]

ow stadium is nice imo

[covert kestrel]

i would never go back but i look back at my hearthstone days fondly

[vapid sundial]

Surely blizzard will have the most popular dps spec be bad.

For sure man.

[jolly geyser]

HS meta on twitch was great

so much music and memes

[frail veldt]

that woudl be dumb of them

[vapid sundial]

When was the last time ret was /bad/

Like.

Outlaw during ptr bad

Or even middle low pack?

Isn't it normally just mid to mid high

[frail veldt]

why would it be

why would you make the most popular spec bad

that would be extremely stupid

[rustic moon]

yes my point exactly

[vapid sundial]

Are you being dense on purpose

[frail veldt]

no

are you?

[vapid sundial]

Or did you completely ignore my surely

[frail veldt]

im dead serious

ret is normally good yes

[vapid sundial]

Bc surely is used as a serious word here

And not sarcastic.

Surely.

[covert heart]

Is it the best no, but it is generally good enough

[frail veldt]

I mean you leaned in

not my fault

[vapid sundial]

No I didn't?

Lol

[jolly geyser]

do a kissing contest

[frail veldt]

all of this is like "no shit sherlock"

you new to wow or what

[vapid sundial]

Yes I'm asking when was the last time ret was ba s

Bad

[frail veldt]

asking if the sky's blue

[vapid sundial]

Bc I literally

Do not know

[frail veldt]

it hasnt been bad since its rework

[vapid sundial]

Man look at what I replied to

[covert heart]

I think some point last expansion right?

[vapid sundial]

And maybe don't just look at my message

[cinder relic]

Ret was mid all this expac lol

[vapid sundial]

XD

[frail veldt]

it was bad prior to s2 of DF

[cinder relic]

This tier anyway

[frail veldt]

but since its rework its popularity skyrocketed

and it has stayed mid to top of pack every season

[covert heart]

I also believe it should stay mid, bm needs to go back to being mid

[wintry solar]

More BM mains farm for pets than actually play the game

[covert heart]

If you can do your rotation on your mouse wheel it should be mid 🤣

[wintry solar]

I'd put money on it

[vapid sundial]

So what I want you to do
Right
@frail veldt
Check what this guy said, right?

Then look at what he was replying to

Context and not Instantly slobbering on your keyboard to reply is a hell of a thing.

#outlaw message

[rustic moon]

I wish ret was bad enough to make it less popular

[vapid sundial]

I dislike playing with ret players

[latent oak]

why

[vapid sundial]

They don't kick

[frail veldt]

You said some sarcasm, I responded with "that would be dumb", then you asked questions that made it seem like you werent even being sarcastic to me cuz you asked about the "last time ret was bad" like youre still wondering why its been good for so long

[vapid sundial]

I never said that

You're insinuating what I thought

[frail veldt]

which part

[vapid sundial]

I legit asked when was the last time it was bad

Thst is NOT saying it needs to be bad.

[cinder relic]

Ret hasn't been actually good in a long time lol

[frail veldt]

yeah to me when you respond to me by asking when was it bad I felt an implied sense of disbelief or you trying to acknowledge some absurdity like "its been good for so long!"

[cinder relic]

Ret has been fine for a long time

[glass mortar]

i mean its pretty mid this season but if a solo dps spec of a class is ever near the bottom of the charts its probably a pretty big failure of design

[vapid sundial]

Yeah but not good =/= bad

[frail veldt]

which to me was pointing out the obvious

[late swallow]

Ryker be careful dude

[wintry solar]

This happens so much in this channel its actually comical

[white marten]

Ret is chill

[frail veldt]

which made me think you werent even sarcastic in the first place

which is why it was confusing

[late swallow]

Mewo is the literal “what exactly do you mean by” semantics god

[rustic moon]

it's not but it's decent enough

[vapid sundial]

People replying without looking up for context?

[cinder relic]

Yeah ret is like, fine

[vapid sundial]

Ye

[cinder relic]

Just like rogue this tier

Fine

[vapid sundial]

It's funny bc I meant exactly what I asked.

[rustic moon]

the issue is I like playing Hpal and prot

[vapid sundial]

When was the last time ret was bad, unplayable

[rustic moon]

and ret beeing this popular

makes my life kinda of a pain

[cinder relic]

S1 DF probs

[frail veldt]

sarcasm on the internet being misunderstood? That never happens

[toxic star]

no such thing

[cinder relic]

other than that it's been like, just okay

[toxic star]

bad players wont kick

[frail veldt]

SLASH S

[toxic star]

not: ret players wont kick

[vapid sundial]

You're missing the correlation here

Ool

[toxic star]

theres none

[vapid sundial]

Most ret players I have played with are bad

So yes there is

[rustic moon]

ret beeing the most popular spec in the game makes it the spec with the most bad players

[vapid sundial]

Ture.

[fluid iron]

id not be surprised if boomy still won that

[frail veldt]

I think there may be a small selection bias for picking ret that causes them to be on average worse players than some other specs

[vapid sundial]

They're too busy typing in discord

[rustic moon]

that is a good counterpoint yes

[frail veldt]

but the difference is probably way smaller than people pretend

and most people just assume all of them are bad and I think thats incorrect

[vapid sundial]

They're not all bad

Keen is goated

But the majority

[frail veldt]

I dont even think theyre on average that much worse than most spec playerbases

[glass mortar]

idk boomkin have some allegations to live down

[frail veldt]

the majority of wow players are bad

[glass mortar]

i still remember sylvanas

how much of that race was just determined by which guilds boomkins werent perma floor PoV

[frail veldt]

because wow players like to pretend that "average" is 3600+ io

[glass mortar]

they didnt send their best

[vapid sundial]

Not just that but pvp

[frail veldt]

cuz they all have insane egos

[late swallow]

PEW did a study that found outlaw players having the fattest hogs

Anyone got a link?

[vapid sundial]

You can scroll through my messages and see I said this like 40 times

[rustic moon]

who

[frail veldt]

lol

[vapid sundial]

Thst people don't understand how bad the avg is

It's just insane

[frail veldt]

literally most top players will say a key is hard until they time it then they said its easy

its so braindead

[frail veldt]

exactly

the "average" wow player barely does heroic raid

the casual team in my guild is still progging heroic galywix

[vapid sundial]

Like when I was pushing for title.

The person doing 2 key levels below me? I'll probably call them bad if we do a key together

Doesn't mean they ARE BAD.

[frail veldt]

they are objectively good and above average yeah

but gaming nomenclature is stupid

[vapid sundial]

But comparatively

[frail veldt]

and people dont understand a spectrum

[vapid sundial]

They are bad.

[frail veldt]

even though most of those people are on one

lol

[vapid sundial]

League has this same problem

And it's awful

[frail veldt]

all online games do

[glass mortar]

all players who made a mistake while in my vicinity = bad

[rustic moon]

above average does not mean good

good is relative

[covert heart]

Isn't like the average player like 2100 or some shit?

[frail veldt]

lol I mean it literally does

[frail veldt]

relative to the avreage....