i have adr if i have bad buffs
#outlaw
mighty pivot
4.8 but that's 6 minutes
vapid blaze
well the tset on live def helps out
hybrid crown
Cudgel next season??
pliant wind
Yeah liked "less" rng on rtb
random stirrup
It doesn’t help the new 2p is quite gamba
pliant wind
Then i can conclude that zac needs to get better on outlaw
vivid vessel
ye prolly
pliant wind
vivid vessel
maybe on live it feels better because we dont do tank damage on st tho
thats the diff prolly
gaunt phoenix
ye
gaunt phoenix
i mean 7 to 7.5 is technically 7% "more gamba"
vivid vessel
wtf !
pliant wind
I dont wanna have bad luck time in the new patch
Must be stressful
I hated in live having badluck as a HO player, if i need to go KiR in the new patch and with the new tier. Thats gonna be ugly, like when can i use KiR?
glass mortar
I mean if ur not lucky then u shouldn't be playing law weve known this for years
I got 3 mounts so far this weekend from my mog runs so
Outlaw looking fine next season
💅
keen belfry
I haven’t done a ptr key since the buff
Grrrr I don’t want to do tank single target damage.
Grrrr
royal ermine
I have gotten 0 this week 
keen belfry
@quasi ether why is deepps in here sup lil bro
royal ermine
is it joever
mighty pivot
our 🐐
upbeat tundra
kspree shoulda just been like x seconds of guaranteed ace procs or somethin
jolly geyser
or throw bombs around for 2sec
upbeat tundra
kspree should give you a rocket launcher
jolly geyser
make rogue be able to rocket jump
upbeat tundra
quake style
jolly geyser
glitch out of m+
hybrid crown
Summons an army of pirates
pallid wraith
killing spree should burrow you in the ground for 5 seconds. no cancelling
vapid blaze
idk isnt it kinda true?
upbeat tundra
what woulda been cool if they just make killing spree x seconds of the anniversary bug, since they just made our new tier set the coup bug
jolly geyser
quake style
make KS instagib the targeted enemy,bosses included
frail veldt
idk isnt it kinda true?
which part
upbeat tundra
just add the bugs to the game
mighty pivot
can you link this thread? I need to go in
vapid blaze
which part
should be 2 min
chilly dagger
do we ever press BTE outside of vanish window? or is it just evis
frail veldt
should be 2 min
wdym should be
hybrid crown
Make it summon ninjas and assassins too so people won't complain about class fantasy
frail veldt
should be for what purpose
if anything even with the improved KS id rather press it as infrequently as possible
vapid blaze
it flows well cause of vanish
frail veldt
so id argue it should be less frequent
jolly geyser
make KS summon naked elfs that hit target with daggers
frail veldt
but yes having it be some multiple of vanish cd does flow better
frail veldt
I do think though that keeping it low would have been bad
hybrid crown
Lol
frail veldt
thats way too much time spent spinning around
vapid blaze
yeah but thats another kind of problem xD
mighty pivot
KS CD is already misaligned with vanish, they don't have to be aligned
frail veldt
KS CD is already misaligned with vanish, they don't have to be aligned
not really, theyre pretty closely aligned on live
9/10 times you ks->vanish->ks->vanish
mighty pivot
1.4 vs 2
frail veldt
thats not how that works
hybrid crown
Macro KS to /yell DIE DIE DIE
frail veldt
cuz of cdr
2 min is 30 seconds
and 1.4 is like 24 seconds
so theyre closer than their cds would imply
mighty pivot
our cdr generally makes things 1/6 of their base cd
frail veldt
it does not reduce abilities proportionally
its a flat amount
and because on shorter cds you inevitably waste cdr due to blockers you end up with them close
so like if you compare vanish at 2 mins to KiR at 6, if you were to vanish and kir at the same time, when vanish is ready, kir will have 4 minutes left
but KS to Vanish even though ks is lower cd it almost always comes off cd during the vanish so it keeps them lined up
mighty pivot
yes but you still end up having about ~10-20% more KS casts than vanish on average. Of course some of the KS cdr is "wasted" because you don't KS in subterfuge for instance and it can become ready within that window. Plus it's not always safe to KS
fading vine
Hi, I'm new here and I was following warcraftlogs and noticed that you use dispatch right after bte, can someone explain to me why?
frail veldt
yeah its automatic
frail veldt
yes but you still end up having about ~10-20% more KS casts than vanish on avera...
yeah but its not like were gona have half as many KS casts with it going to 3mins is all im saying
in theory if you dont waste any cdr itll be exactly 2:3 ratio of vanish to KS with the new cooldown
and since you dont ever waste cdr on vanish its pretty likely to be the case
so were going from almost 1:1(3:3) down to 2:3 KS to vanish ratio
idk I think its fine
it doesnt flow as well sure
I would have preferred it to be closer to 1:2 ks to vanish
but I think its not as big of a deal as people are making it out to be
mighty pivot
yeah but its not like were gona have half as many KS casts with it going to 3min...
yes it isn't half based on ptr numbers rn, it's quite a bit over half, maybe 60-66% the live frequency
vapid sundial
No
vivid vessel
!fuu
ornate heathBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
vapid sundial
its worse than dh debuff in pretty much every way
vapid sundial
no one cares about ret
haughty wigeon
Cause all our kit is a mix of physical and magic
Enhance a arguement can be made for touch
glass mortar
how do damage sources that r both even work, do they just take the higher of the debuff
surely they dont double dip
haughty wigeon
how do damage sources that r both even work, do they just take the higher of the...
Yep
haughty wigeon
surely they dont double dip
They don’t
It was a question that popped up during ret rework
chilly atlas
isn't enhances phys damage like sub 10%?
vapid sundial
like tempest and LB
haughty wigeon
strike doesnt do
No no
latent oak
if they go totemic its alot of phys damage
haughty wigeon
I mean like
Strike a tribute
Cause for example
I think totemic is a lot of “strike”
Like frost strike
Nature strike
Firestrike
vapid sundial
pretty sure totemic is mostly magic
limpid onyx
totemic is mostly both combined
haughty wigeon
Now here’s the real kicker
Is lighting bolt
Actually nature damage
Or is it a cringe
agile cobalt
Hello everyone! I suppose it is quite silly to ask this question now, when there will be further hotfixes, but anyways. Did anybody try new raid and have some thoughts on what spec might perform better? Or it is no use thinking about it now... Basically thinking between assassination and outlaw and I've heard somewhere that blizzard is moving to being able to cleave great is must-have and if i understand it correct, assassination perform in this better than outlaw?
limpid onyx
enh spenders are magic
haughty wigeon
Nature in name but has a physical attribute on the white flags
vapid sundial
na its alot of mixed
no it is not
gaunt phoenix
Hello everyone! I suppose it is quite silly to ask this question now, when there...
It will prob depend on the boss
As always
limpid onyx
surging totem pulses are flamestrike damage, fire + phys
Primordial storm strikes are also mixed
Sundering is flamestrike
latent oak
ya not atm
haughty wigeon
I think the ranbow bars
Are strike damage
I’m on mobile
I’ll check in a bit
Damage attributes are weird
vivid vessel
ye when its multiple color its a mix of damage type
i think in this breakdown here
you prolly have a good chunk that is pjhysical
ike all these
have phys in it
vapid sundial
yeah but that is M+
latent oak
surging storm is phys aswell
vapid sundial
and the wrong hero talents
haughty wigeon
Surging totem
haughty wigeon
Is also
haughty wigeon
Flame strike
agile cobalt
It will prob depend on the boss
I see, thanks
haughty wigeon
So ya
random stirrup
havoc getting more benefit from monk than their own buff nowadays 
\
latent oak
in st like 35% of totemic enh is being buffed by monk i think
latent oak
more in m+ ofc
haughty wigeon
Ya
Shammy seems to utilize both
It just defaults to touch for its strike abilities
vapid sundial
Well.
vapid sundial
haughty wigeon
That’s pure magic
vapid sundial
Yes
this is the M+ build
And what is probably the build for next tier, too
cuz of set
willow portal
is there any cool pistol like transmog for outlaws?
latent oak
have u seen the degenerate stuff u can do with tracking dre
u can giga highroll on enh with next tier
latent oak
if u get tier procs at same time as double dre procs
vapid sundial
they dumbed the spec down too much for me to care
haughty wigeon
is there any cool pistol like transmog for outlaws?
There’s glyphs
From siren island
haughty wigeon
Ya tempest more magic than totemic thus benefits form brand more
vapid sundial
I dont like that all of the stuff you used to tab target just now auto spreads
willow portal
There’s glyphs
oh? what they do?
haughty wigeon
But no one is arguing that
vapid sundial
super annoying
haughty wigeon
oh? what they do?
Ye
latent oak
wanst tab targetting just bait for higher overall anyways
haughty wigeon
Anything thats has physical attribute always defaults to touch
Cause touch is stronger
Afaik
It defaults to whatever is stronger for it
And it doesn’t double dip
mighty pivot
oh? what they do?
they change the appearance of our pistols but you don't really see it because the pistol is only out for a split second
willow portal
ah no sorry i was missunderstood then
i am looking for 1h tmog that looks maybe like a gun
hasty warren
Hi pirates
haughty wigeon
fading vine
it fires a dispatch after every BtE when you are in subterfuge windows
So i do it only in subterfuge window yes?
mighty pivot
So i do it only in subterfuge window yes?
you don't do anything. Everytime you BtE in subterfuge it will automatically follow up with a dispatch 0.4s after
you just press BtE
fading vine
you don't do anything. Everytime you BtE in subterfuge it will automatically fol...
Aaa ok brother i understand Thank u
teal dust
!wa
ornate heathBOT
Class packs:
Guy's - Afenar's Edit 
Luxthos Edit
Zac's Group 
Devlin
Utilities:
Combo Point Standalone
Last GCD in Crackshot window / Subterfuge timer
Ace refund sound trigger
RtB buffs tracker (shows normal, CTO, and KIR'd buffs)
Unseen Blade tracker
Fun:
Ace max combo counter and Ace current combo counter
KS Ticking damage taken
mighty pivot
i am looking for 1h tmog that looks maybe like a gun
I don't think so, but they have gunblades over at ff14 I'm pretty sure . Any combination of gun and blade in wow is classified as a gun
lime lake
i am looking for 1h tmog that looks maybe like a gun
there are axes in bfa that have a gun
most are quest rewards or world drops/drops from rares
jolly geyser
what is the name of that axe?
wintry solar
I'll log on and show you
jolly geyser
cheers
wintry solar
He found it
lime lake
there are a few other recolors as well
jolly geyser
oh its ally
mighty pivot
oh it's alliance only that's why I've never seen it
lime lake
you can use it on horde
wintry solar
Yeah
lime lake
or a different one with same model at least
a lot are just unlocked from kul tiras questing
wintry solar
I think it's a world drop. It kinda just showed up in my appearances
mighty pivot
https://www.wowhead.com/item=159475/shipwrecker-axe?bonus=6655 this one is world drop
lime lake
some are world drops too
jolly geyser
https://www.wowhead.com/item=159475/shipwrecker-axe?bonus=6655 this one is world...
looks even better
wintry solar
Some greens just casually being one of the coolest mogs in the game
willow portal
kinda works with the revendreth set too
jolly geyser
I like how the edges look insanely sharp
wintry solar
idk how others feel but I believe the best bfa mogs came from dungeons and world drops
jolly geyser
felt like some upgraded viking weapons
mighty pivot
my new grind
it's also available through an alliance quest
wintry solar
id rather just farm it and watch youtube on the side
willow portal
is there more than 4?
wintry solar
no just those 4
viral bison
Hows one button rotation on outlaw? can i push 3k with it?
sudden fulcrum
depends on if you can find a group willing to carry your garbage dps
personally i'd never push with anyone unwilling to learn their class
wintry solar
it's also available through an alliance quest
I think these are a must have
mighty pivot
they are ok, a bit on the small side but size isn't everything
wintry solar
its about the motion of the ocean
viral bison
personally i'd never push with anyone unwilling to learn their class
nah i was just thinking about HOW TF I CAN GET 30 MORE IO
i quited last time
cause ppl werent inviting me
xd
2973 rn last play was 2nd month of the season
neat tapir
what is the best item to buy on a fresh outlaw with dinars? shoult i keep them for M+ trinkets or buy a hero raiding gear like weapon?
mighty pivot
vivid vessel
dont get rid of mister beast bro 
wintry solar
More like Mister Least
mighty pivot
mr beast 
vivid vessel
mr beast is gone wtfff 
balmy topaz
I got the link before delete 
vivid vessel
who yeeted mister beast 
lime lake
share wtf
neat tapir
!fuu
ornate heathBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
mighty pivot
id rather just farm it and watch youtube on the side
it's literally 1 quest the moment you step in drustvar btw 
snow vessel
lime lake
royal the goat
wintry solar
it's literally 1 quest the moment you step in drustvar btw <:garf_sit:1334889429...
That could take forever. I gotta make my character, give it a funny name, and then obviously I'll be leveling as a rogue.
It's just too much
Like go to stormwind
No ty
lime lake
real
mighty pivot
makes sense, much easier to farm a 4% rare mob drop 
lime lake
you'd have to like
make an allied race
talk to chromie
and do a quest
idk thats a bit fucked innit
i could be watching netflix
wintry solar
Californication won't watch itself
mighty pivot
I did it in like 10 minutes with an abandoned alliance mage that was still waiting for her purpose from tbc
sudden fulcrum
nah i was just thinking about HOW TF I CAN GET 30 MORE IO
well that surely is not it
wintry solar
I did it in like 10 minutes with an abandoned alliance mage that was still waiti...
How do I know it's not the one I already have?
mighty pivot
you mean which colour variant it is?
wintry solar
Ye
mighty pivot
well, do you have the gold one already? if not it's the gold one https://www.wowhead.com/item=155127/fallhaven-hatchet?bonus=4790
wintry solar
The one I posted on my undead is the only one I have
Ooo
The gold is from the quest?
mighty pivot
there are 5 different gold ones
wintry solar
I guess I shoukd read the article
mighty pivot
like 3 from quests and 2 drops or something
the one I linked is the easiest to get I believe, literally available immediately in drustvar, the other 2 quest ones were from quest chains iirc
and you kill 1 named mob and you're done
wintry solar
unique fulcrum
!haste
ornate heathBOT
A properly geared Outlaw's stat volume will look like Vers > Haste* > Crit > Mastery.
*But Haste has a **requirement ** because 
Adrenaline Rush scales your GCD based on haste, up to 25%.
The 
KIR build wants ~19% haste from rating, so it becomes 25% after 
Alacrity. 18% or 20% is close enough and not a problem. Don't play KIR with lower than 18% haste.
The 
HO build gets 
Take 'em by Surprise, so its haste requirement is technically ~9%., but it continues to want haste just for energy. You will likely optimize towards 14-18% haste, not a strict number, just sim.
You need to use 
Raidbots Top Gear to determine what haste pieces to use. You can also get ~4.2% haste from a flask. This can be equal or better than Vers flask if you need it for either build.
wintry solar
hes gonna accuse you of being one of my alts now
Sounds like Mafic
He's a little schizo
stray star
Should i use geargrinder or magnet for m gally?
stray star
Ohh, I felt it, but I didn't know if it was real
sharp hinge
do we get the most exp from timewalking right now while leveling?
sudden fulcrum
probably yeah
suppose it depends on how fast you can queue into them adn finish them
sharp hinge
i think time walking is 6min while the regular tww dungeons are like 19 min
thats what it says but idk how accurate it is
sharp hinge
no just queing as dps
no rush just seeing which is best on my own for the next 3 levels
wintry solar
thats what it says but idk how accurate it is
Not at all tbh
covert kestrel
is zac not being yellow name anymore mean hes rerolling aug???
toxic star
i can confirm that
vivid vessel
is zac not being yellow name anymore mean hes rerolling aug???
i havent been yellow since they removed acro
wintry solar
is zac not being yellow name anymore mean hes rerolling aug???
Someone's gotta buff all the fdks running around
covert kestrel
i havent been yellow since they removed acro
oh damn i guess im just unobservant mb
vivid vessel
idk outlaw hasnt been the same since they removed acro ..
toxic star
Ye we all went on strike
ghostly strike?
vivid vessel
i wish they would delete ghostly strike already
toxic star
Someone's gotta buff all the fdks running around
can just buff them with tricks 
vapid sundial
i wish they would delete ghostly strike already
It's basically just the reason snd is passive now
wintry solar
can just buff them with tricks <:evilKEK:756708443653668995>
Damn, I should've done that to the dk rerollers this season
vapid sundial
Random Manti button you press now and then
But you lose so much if you don't
Just unfun
covert kestrel
making it 0 energy and allows your ks to focus the debuffed target instead of random 
wintry solar
But I will next season. Make them put that deathstrike to work
fathom bramble
i wish they would delete ghostly strike already
yeah they need to replace ghostly strike or give it an actual design goal and rework it
having a spell that might as well always be macroed into something is not where a skill should sit
it reminds me of when WoD dropped and they were cleaning up a lot of spells that got perma macroed into things
or when legion dropped?
I don't remember
balmy topaz
Feels atm they are very out of touch with outlaw
proven ocean
I know i just wanted to be the guy who pretends everything is alright for a second
#fixoutlaw
balmy topaz
wintry solar
I'm numb to the flaws of GS. Just fix KS and we're back to S tier design
green sinew
fathom bramble
yeah the flaws GS has are at least not actively detrimental
and are basically the same as GSW
a talent that just seems lost in the current design
without a real goal or idea in mind for its existence
ashen void
it be just like me fr 
vivid vessel
yeah the flaws GS has are at least not actively detrimental
idk
it annoys me so much in m+
not being able to send it whenever
glass mortar
yeah the flaws GS has are at least not actively detrimental
Target swapping says hello
vivid vessel
cant target swap
glass mortar
Ghostly is a sin
vivid vessel
cost infinite energy for nothing
glass mortar
Zero gameplay
hybrid mesa
bring back MFD
bring back mfd + bone spear outlaw
glass mortar
Fuks u if u swap at a bad time
fathom bramble
idk
I meant more like actively detrimental to the rest of the rotation
losing GS itself when you are forced to target swap just hurts GS
though the energy cost is definitely too high
plucky chasm
So beautiful to see our guy @vivid vessel breaked the meta this season ❤️
fathom bramble
and to some extent hurts the rest of the rotation if it is hit during low energy
hybrid mesa
isnt it funny that they removed the need to stick to a target because of the bte crit debuff on enemy and now we have the same problem but with GS
vivid vessel
So beautiful to see our guy <@352916297262301194> breaked the meta this season ❤...
we lost r1
vivid vessel
isnt it funny that they removed the need to stick to a target because of the bte...
wait till you try trikcster in s3
everytime i swap target
glass mortar
bro if u ever drop adr and arent getting good rolls
vivid vessel
i dont have fazed
vivid vessel
and i cant send coup
glass mortar
why is it so expensive
glass mortar
u have infinite energy and its cost doesnt matter or u are getting bad rng and it turbo fucks u
hybrid mesa
ghostly with no adr is prob the worst feeling in the game
glass mortar
no reason for this ability to be this way
fathom bramble
fazed not being on the character is so bad
vivid vessel
:)
you know what i have to do lok on ptr
i have to move around
when i press ks
to spread it around
fathom bramble
very cool
they should have just made KS aoe during BF
and apply fazed to everything
instead of being copied by BF
with the random targetting
proven ocean
Cool design
vivid vessel
idk why fazed is a debuff
such a stupid design
stupid people
our hero talents have so much potential
and its all wasted
on them not doing a single iteration on the talents
and not playing the game
idk
its sad a bit
plucky chasm
Thats why im w8 for the new talent system next expansion🙈
fathom bramble
bring back the mists talent system
plucky chasm
Dont like how they made many things on many many specs
plucky chasm
bring back the mists talent system
Dont know this, i started end of Dragonflight to play WoW 😅 was it good ?
fathom bramble
instead of being a branching system it was just 7 independent choices
bright crane
instead of being a branching system it was just 7 independent choices
Dude legit called this from
The start
haughty wigeon
everyone did
bright crane
Illusion of choice
fathom bramble
looked like this
haughty wigeon
the talent trees were legit a way to capalize on the success and nostalgia of classic talent trees
vivid vessel
idc about illusion of choice, it was illusion of choice before aswell
haughty wigeon
hence why alot of the oldversion had 3 point nodes
haughty wigeon
it was supposed to be rewards and engagement for leveling up
but
they forgot to make leveling up engaging in general
instead of speedblitz to max level to do endgame
plucky chasm
Fck the hero talent systems fr
haughty wigeon
thus talent trees failed in the one thing they were ment for
fathom bramble
needing to spend a talent point every level is more annoying than anything else
plucky chasm
The cant handle those
fathom bramble
especially since it's usually on something that does nothing
haughty wigeon
needing to spend a talent point every level is more annoying than anything else
casuals love that shit
plucky chasm
Why they bring it out
haughty wigeon
classic andys love that shit
its supposed to give a sense of progression as you get stronger
atleast thats what the dh dev said
tender wedge
I love the illusion of choice argument as if it’s the responsibility of blizzard and not the community who’ll flock to a 0.5% dps increase like vultures then complain they HAD to
haughty wigeon
haughty wigeon
I love the illusion of choice argument as if it’s the responsibility of blizzard...
that too
fathom bramble
meanwhile all the casuals I know use the default recommended builds and don't even actively 'spend' anything
haughty wigeon
cause the game was warped into it
it went from rpg
to level up in 2 hours and do endgame
talent trees was supposed to hard focus on the levelign experience in df
alongside
the new player island
but then like
they forgot to make the rest of the leveling open world engaging
plucky chasm
Bro no one cares about leveling exp in 2025. the game continued a good way. They just to bring out a better System
haughty wigeon
it was a failure in all accounts
haughty wigeon
Bro no one cares about leveling exp in 2025. the game continued a good way. They...
thats what im saying?
plucky chasm
Yy
haughty wigeon
but blizzard seeing the success of classic wanted to bring that back to retail
also cause of casual demand for muh leveling experience
like alot of things, blizzard half assed it and left it half bake without even making chromie time decent as a leveling experience
granted, how could they? we should be like level 160 or something
to fit it all in
fathom bramble
in order for leveling to even be reasonable for a new player they can't really include the entire leveling experience
like if you had to do the 5 or 10 levels of every expansion in their correct zones
and yeah the max level would be like 150
violet bison
!wa
ornate heathBOT
Class packs:
- Guy's - Afenar's Edit Luxthos Edit
- Zac's Group Devlin
Utilities: - Combo Point Standalone
- Last GCD in Crackshot window / Subterfuge timer
- Ace refund sound trigger
- RtB buffs tracker (shows normal, CTO, and KIR'd buffs)
- Unseen Blade tracker
Fun: - Ace max combo counter and Ace current combo counter
- KS Ticking damage taken
fathom bramble
I also don't want to spend 100 hours leveling an alt
haughty wigeon
they wanted to make the leveling experience good hence all this stuff talent trees island chromie time additinos
but then like
mighty pivot
mop's talent system barely had any real choices. Certain specs do have some flexibility with the new one both while levelling and in end game. It just sucks when it is done very poorly (see sub's spec tree)
haughty wigeon
they couldnt reasonably make it good without making it impssioble to level alts
and fitting everything in
heck you can reach max level without even doing a full expansion now in chromie time
hybrid mesa
tbh rogue is the worst outlier of the new talent system
violet bison
is it really?
haughty wigeon
so they elected to abandon it and just make due with talent trees
hybrid mesa
most other classes have great trees with some form of variety
fathom bramble
we have had 2 or more reasonably competitive builds for most of the time since the new talent system hit
hybrid mesa
weird i dont remember saying all
haughty wigeon
like half of them suck
fathom bramble
that's twice as many as a lot of other specs
fathom bramble
true
hybrid mesa
but it doesnt matter if they give you 7 choices like before or 70 like now
fathom bramble
this next tier is looking like our 1st onee with only 1 competitive ST build
hybrid mesa
the previous system you just moved 2 talents around and that was all your variety between raid and m+
if anything i feel like the current talent system makes it so much harder to actually learn a spec
because of all the interacting talents with each spell you have to memorize if you wanna minmax
haughty wigeon
i mean
fathom bramble
mists talent system was still less annoying to interact with and allowed for some more diverse builds thanks to having mutually exclusive talents
hybrid mesa
like playing a healer rn fucking blows because your base spells are worthless if yo udont buff them with the 14 talents that interact with them
haughty wigeon
before talent trees
people didnt read their spellbook at all
from the passives they auto learn
so nothing really changed
but ya
rows> trees
hybrid mesa
at least with this talent system they get more possible tuning knobs
to target different things
and for some specs those tuning knobs basically change your playstyle each season
like i dont think shadow or enhancement have ever played exactly the same two seasons in a row
fathom bramble
more tuning knobs isn't necessarily a good thing when they are all moving the same needle
you could nerf 3 talents 1 build uses I guess
hybrid mesa
yeah but it's not just one needle anymore
fathom bramble
but in a mists system you just nerf the 1 talent that defines that build
it's the same thing
bright crane
To me it almost seems there’s too many spinning plates with the classic style talents
hybrid mesa
like before this talent system you were basically trolling if you tried bringing sin rogue to m+
sin was just the raid spec
fathom bramble
that's not even true though
hybrid mesa
like i dont think this talent system actually brings any "choice" cause wow players will suffocate their babies if it'll give them a +.2% dps for their late season rik reverb prog
fathom bramble
and isn't really relevant since it just comes down to how your aoe spells are tuned
hybrid mesa
but it at least brings more depth/skill to a spec and makes it easier to tune specs in different scenarios
some specs actually have different versions of their talents based on what they want to run or need
bright lodge
!log
bright crane
So I just asked ChatGPT how many specs in wow have 3 or more viable m+ builds - answer is 0 lol
hybrid mesa
fathom bramble
well you might consider this spec to have 2-5 depending on where you draw the line at viable
bright crane
I would say moving 1 talent isn’t an entirely different build
hybrid mesa
realistically every spec should have two: one for each hero talent
bright crane
But they don’t so
hybrid mesa
i doubt chatgpt will actually measure 'viability'
fathom bramble
I would say moving 1 talent isn’t an entirely different build
fair
between ho and kir I think we can still find 5 builds that are different by enough to count
if moving the talent adds or removes a button that's good enough for me
gaunt phoenix
can chatgpt consider discord chat histories 
?
hybrid mesa
also a lot of people see one build being better as the other build being terrible
which is why we have this problem with people meta chasing fotm specs
tender wedge
like i dont think this talent system actually brings any "choice" cause wow play...
so the only solution on blizzards part is to make talents give zero throughput then
bright crane
Wowhead’s talent calculators and guides (as often referenced) still focus on 1–2 best Mythic+ builds per spec, with no spec branching into three or more competitive options
Reddit
.
Community statistical sites (Subcreation, Warcraft Logs, U.gg, Murlok) also list multiple builds, but usually it's capped at two worth considering at higher key levels
Reddit
.
Is what it referenced
tender wedge
this is a community issue imo
hybrid mesa
a lot of people see (for example)
archon shows 99% sanlayn playrate
"holy shit rider must be DOGSHIT i'll report any riders i see in my groups"
fathom bramble
for people suffering from the community issue it literally doesn't matter what the talent system is
DF or mists doesn't make a different when you just copy some other guy
bright crane
Dude that’s kinda the thing though - people always play what is strongest. That’s just how people are. Tale as old as time
And they said themselves - they brought classic talent back cause people asked for it
gaunt phoenix
what have they done 
hybrid mesa
yeah the problem with the community is that after seeing "the strongest" they see anything else as troll or weak
fathom bramble
if you are actually engaging with the game instead of just copying wowhead the mists system is at least less frustrating to use
bright crane
But I think people didn’t realize that it isn’t actually how they play the game
hybrid mesa
yeah mists system was more accessible for newer players too
balmy topaz
what have they done <:ohno:1141800780995760238>
@toxic star I think something has happened 
vivid vessel
what have they done <:ohno:1141800780995760238>
dispatch damage from crackshot is under bte now
gaunt phoenix
is it like that in details?
vivid vessel
he said he would remove the dispatch counting as a cast aswell but i dont think he did
no its not like that in details
its like that in sims
tbf for details we could ask the details guys
gaunt phoenix
ye
bright crane
if you are actually engaging with the game instead of just copying wowhead the m...
People THINK they wanted options, but they don’t really
hybrid mesa
tbh they HAVE options
but it's the same as always: wow players will unnecessarily optimize the fun out of their spec without even knowing how to play it in the first place
enh got a bunch of passive versions of their spells to reduce the 'bloat' in their rotation
and all players basically said "is it less dps? dont want it"
the choice is there, but the players, good or not, will just ignore them just to feel optimal
bright crane
Yes, and that’s why I’m saying what people who overwhelmingly asked for this system to be brought back weren’t honest with themselves about how they actually play the game
I sure as shit don’t sit around playing with the talent system and I don’t care to
hybrid mesa
well just copy what archon or the pins say
bright crane
I do
cinder relic
I think the new talent system is so nice idk
hybrid mesa
but i dont think we can claim that a system works or doesnt work when we dont even interact with it
bright crane
Cause you’re a big brain
cinder relic
It opens up so much choices when it comes to builds
bright crane
Who people copy from
cinder relic
Sure but like
bright crane
Like you’re the taste maker
hybrid mesa
like im sure there are lower performance builds that play differently that dont make it into the guides because of the dps loss
cinder relic
And for people just like, leveling characters, it makes the leveling process feel more rewarding
hybrid mesa
we just dont know em cause we dont go and fuck around with every talent point
toxic star
he said he would remove the dispatch counting as a cast aswell but i dont think ...
thats in too
toxic star
is it like that in details?
you can manually do that yourself
vivid vessel
ye it shows weirdly in the timline tho
toxic star
cant separate how it shows
toxic star
oh i can remove it from casts too ofc
sudden fulcrum
i think the current talent system is approaching PoE 1 levels of complexity which is not good
toxic star
wait a moment
sudden fulcrum
i see that shit and i'm like naaaah man
vivid vessel
i mean idk, @gaunt phoenix you think we have any benefit seeing it?
not really right
i cant think of anything
you know its a bte crackshot i guess
gaunt phoenix
the dispatch casts timeline? nop
vivid vessel
toxic star
ah its just because its the timeline
cinder relic
i think the current talent system is approaching PoE 1 levels of complexity whic...
This is the dumbest comment in this discord this month
toxic star
timeline like events always shows everything
toxic star
if you check the table, its gone there
if you wanna combine them in details btw like on logs:
cinder relic
You haven't played, or understand Poe in any capacity if you think the current wow talent trees are even close
fathom bramble
current talent system is so much more constrained than the poe talent tree
hybrid mesa
This is the dumbest comment in this discord this month
i didnt wanna say anything
fathom bramble
for a lot of specs there ends up being like 3 total choices
your just gunning it to the capstones
and can't actively pick any utility since it's only taken as pathing nodes to a real talent
cinder relic
Very similar
mighty pivot
Very similar
midnight's outlaw tree looks sick
fathom bramble
it's like theoretical choices that no one would actually make
haughty wigeon
if you wanna combine them in details btw like on logs:
hi xeph
how your outlawing
hybrid crown
I like this more than old talents
cinder relic
Ppl just be saying shit sometimes
hybrid crown
There are some tweaks they could make but this is the best version of talents we've had imo
cinder relic
I agree
hybrid mesa
yupyup
hybrid crown
I've played through all 3 versions
proven ocean
Guy why are you black
cinder relic
U can poke holes in any system but I think this talent system offers a lot of choices in builds and gameplay preferences
proven ocean
toxic star
how your outlawing
🚀
proven ocean
Oh
toxic star
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/JgfvpYCkaFVX6cBG?fight=last&type=damage-done advancing to 14s soon
vivid vessel
if you wanna combine them in details btw like on logs:
its more that it should be something baseline so people dont get confused, i asked the details people, they prolly will do the change since wcl did it
proven ocean
Maybe its because of mobile
cinder relic
Mobile bad
hybrid mesa
o its cause it starts as black lol
vivid vessel
Mobile bad
its not mobile, unless you mouseover your thing since its animated it shows black
toxic star
its more that it should be something baseline so people dont get confused, i ask...
ye, figured ill write a script that does the combination for me since i wont bug details about all the merges 
hybrid mesa
it doesnt autoplay until yo umouseover
vivid vessel
ye, figured ill write a script that does the combination for me since i wont bug...
I just bugged them 
hybrid mesa
at least for me
toxic star
yea but i meant
literally all merges 
they also cant do conditionals based on talents / spec
cinder relic
its not mobile, unless you mouseover your thing since its animated it shows blac...
Yeah but mobile doesn't even have my decoration
toxic star
or content
proven ocean
Yeah but mobile doesn't even have my decoration
On pc i see another pfp i think
hybrid mesa
bring back ventrilo
fathom bramble
I feel like most or all of the perceived benefits of the new talent system just came from better balancing
proven ocean
it was always black its just no decoration
fathom bramble
there's not that many choices in the tree
but in practice the better and more frequent talent balancing has made more choices
vivid vessel
we have less builds that we had during sl with legos and covenants
fathom bramble
for some specs*
vivid vessel
or like, we have more numbers of useless talents
hybrid mesa
we have less builds that we had during sl with legos and covenants
wot
fathom bramble
I mean if we include none talent systems
hybrid mesa
sl outlaw didnt even have kir/ho
fathom bramble
we also have fewer builds than original outlaw release in legion
vivid vessel
so ?
hybrid mesa
the only thing that changed was the covenant
vivid vessel
we litteraly only have ho and kir tho
hybrid mesa
if changing one talent doesnt mean new build then changing covenant shouldnt either
hybrid mesa
idk im applying the same logic some people said here
vivid vessel
other than ho/kir
cinder relic
I wouldn't call sepsis a build
vivid vessel
you dont have anything
hybrid mesa
sepsis KEK
cinder relic
Sepsis was like, a button
hybrid mesa
or the kyrian one
vivid vessel
ok sepsis sucked thats a bad example
fathom bramble
if you think about it sepsis still counts as 1 build
since the other 3 trees actually did something
and sepsis did nothing
hybrid mesa
kyrian was good for the first 2 weeks of s1 pvp
fathom bramble
that's 4 things
hybrid mesa
then it was gutted
vivid vessel
but im sorry but like, especially when we had lego covenants
there was more builds, we didnt play them all at the same time
but there was more
vivid vessel
litteraly did
hybrid mesa
then s2 necro
s3 venthyr
and that was it
no one played sepsis cause it was garbo
pliant wind
Since guides, meta and all exists, there is no choice just the best optimization and copy from that
hybrid mesa
or kyrian
fathom bramble
?
fluid iron
kyrian shadow dust
fathom bramble
did we play different shadowlands
fluid iron
in season 3/4
lone spear
wasnt kyrian THE thing
fathom bramble
all 4 were THE thing at one point or another
vivid vessel
kyrian dust, necro mfd, necro lego, venthyr bb, venthyr gsw, venthyr shit dust, deatlhy shadow idk what cov that was, master assassin killing ass spree
fathom bramble
for one type of content at least
lone spear
did that not suck early SL tho
vivid vessel
now you could argue we have trickster/fatebound that added mroe builds in tww
lone spear
cause had to pick
vivid vessel
i would argue fatebound isnt a build tho
vivid vessel
casue it does litteraly nothing
hybrid mesa
but rogue got shafted
pliant wind
Someone tried HO in ptr? Im curious
vivid vessel
thats the only build defining talents we have
fluid iron
did we play different shadowlands
like i barely played outlaw in SL but even i remember the different builds just from season 3/4 alone
pliant wind
So we have kir only, pretty nasty
fathom bramble
didn't try it for long
pliant wind
Kek
fathom bramble
it's now way behind since it relied on the tier so much
vivid vessel
like i barely played outlaw in SL but even i remember the different builds just ...
i mean sl was way more varied than df and tww but i think we played diff sl
lone spear
the tier also devalued KiR
vivid vessel
aka i played outlaw and this guy didnt
hybrid mesa
idk im looking at raid rankings for sepulcher and all i see is venth blunderbuss
lone spear
so its like double wammy
vivid vessel
ye
hybrid mesa
i dont see any variety
vivid vessel
i mean did you
vivid vessel
you played it half a season maybe
vivid vessel
kyrian dust, necro mfd, necro lego, venthyr bb, venthyr gsw, venthyr shit dust, ...
thius is all the builds i played in sl
and also these builds were all meta at some points
hybrid mesa
alright and how many of those were the best one
hybrid mesa
LMAO
fathom bramble
I would contend that master ass KS was only best for necrotic wake
hybrid mesa
drop the ego my god
fathom bramble
but it was potentially good everywhere regardless
vivid vessel
no ego bro
hybrid mesa
rose tinted glasses
vivid vessel
we played all these builds
and they were all meta at some poiint
ask any outlaw player
that played sl
hybrid mesa
some point aka 3 days
vivid vessel
ok buddy
vivid vessel
you prolly played 1 week every season my guy
mighty pivot
zac missed fighting with someone
bright lodge
Best KS was SL s1 KS with crit legendary. Change my mind
vivid vessel
i didnt invent any of these builds
hybrid mesa
yea man u got me
fathom bramble
Zac will die on literally any hill if someone else is wrong
sudden fulcrum
i feel like if you're going to give anyone the benefit of the doubt here, zac is a good bet
fathom bramble
it is what it is
vivid vessel
ye i notice that
hybrid mesa
yupyup
imagine getting heated over being told you're misremembering stuff that didnt matter lmao
hybrid mesa
S1 was also necro not NF
fuck no it wasnt LMAO
fathom bramble
NF was good for like 4 weeks or something
vivid vessel
look i opened my nw logs
fathom bramble
or maybe a bit longer
hybrid mesa
kyrian got gutted cause pvp
vivid vessel
i actually forgot the adr leggo
fathom bramble
but after nerfs to the soulbind and buffs to SBS it changed
vivid vessel
granted it was mega boring
gaunt phoenix
outlaw had a lot of M+ builds in SL
vivid vessel
look i opened my nw logs
i wasnt logging in sl so you are lucky
prolly a few missing
novel socket
Zac will die on literally any hill if someone else is wrong
what if the hill has croissants
what do we do with the croissants
lone spear
any tour de france enjoyers?
novel socket
look i opened my nw logs
how come none of them is on sin
vivid vessel
was it just really increase duration on bf
fathom bramble
what do we do with the croissants
peel them and then eat the delicious center
novel socket
but only outlaw and sub
vivid vessel
how come none of them is on sin
i dont think i played sin in sl
fluid iron
was it just really increase duration on bf
dmg+duration
haughty wigeon
sl outlaw
vivid vessel
in m+ i mean
haughty wigeon
had a fair bit of builds
vivid vessel
dmg+duration
it was more damage?
haughty wigeon
i thought this was common knowledge?
vivid vessel
i dont actually rmemeber
vivid vessel
i thought this was common knowledge?
ye if you played outlaw
fluid iron
it was yes
haughty wigeon
ye if you played outlaw
ah
vivid vessel
but apparently this guy was a lfr green parser
said it himself
he prolly missed on a bit
hybrid mesa
look i opened my nw logs
ye man look at all those talent changes HOLY
gaunt phoenix
Tbf raid did gravitate towards one build
hybrid mesa
such variety
vivid vessel
?
vivid vessel
i mean now you are being disingenuous
haughty wigeon
back to back er
and back to back
flag
or if you wanna meme
dreadblades flag lego
vivid vessel
im comparing it to now where we have kir vs ho only, we have 2 build defining talents
haughty wigeon
then blunderbussy er or blunderbussy venthyr
hybrid mesa
F
random stirrup
where did that message go
vivid vessel
you are wrong tho
haughty wigeon
s1
vivid vessel
idk why i even argue with a guy that is wrong
hybrid mesa
well you're bring a dingus but i aint calling you out about it cuh
haughty wigeon
had master assassin killing spree for a second
vivid vessel
i should stop doing this shit
hybrid mesa
ya you should
vivid vessel
but i dont like when people are wrong and think they are right tho
haughty wigeon
4 builds
haughty wigeon
bladedance build
vivid vessel
its one of my weakness
lone spear
frosg mage had the best build in s2
hybrid mesa
i mean its cool that you think you remember meaningful choices in SL
haughty wigeon
movers appeared again
lone spear
spam ice lance in aoe
hybrid mesa
but in reality we didnt have that much choice
haughty wigeon
then pigeon holed to
hybrid mesa
other than cov swapping
haughty wigeon
venthyr 2 button
vivid vessel
and lego ye
hybrid mesa
which EVERY spec had
haughty wigeon
actual cancer
cinder relic
I don't really get the whole 4xing down here
vivid vessel
and 4 cov is already more build defining stuffs than how we have just ho vs kir rn that changes gameplay
hybrid mesa
again
hybrid mesa
just unluck from rogue
vivid vessel
idk
cinder relic
Sl did have a lot of build diversity between covenants and legendaries. It's just a fact of the matter
haughty wigeon
i dont see how df builds are different from sl builds
hybrid mesa
almost none of it was meaningful tho
vivid vessel
if you liked changing build every 2 months SL was goated lol
haughty wigeon
instead of er vs flag
hybrid mesa
it was just the same gameplay
haughty wigeon
you have kir vs ho now
cinder relic
It depends how you define the terms Ig
vivid vessel
same gameplay 
hybrid mesa
but with a diff ability on the one keybind