it's a short bit of soloable content you can do any time, i think it's worth for a freshie
#outlaw
tender wedge
gaunt phoenix
(feench)
tender wedge
jee parl la feencaise
vivid vessel
La baguette du fromage
lucid vale
!log
balmy topaz
La baguette du fromage
fromage frais
covert timber
!wa
ornate heathBOT
Class packs:
Guy's - Afenar's Edit 
Luxthos Edit
Zac's Group 
Devlin
Utilities:
Combo Point Standalone
Last GCD in Crackshot window / Subterfuge timer
Ace refund sound trigger
RtB buffs tracker (shows normal, CTO, and KIR'd buffs)
Unseen Blade tracker
Fun:
Ace max combo counter and Ace current combo counter
KS Ticking damage taken
wary bridge
vivid vessel
idk its ok
not live damage
but ok
@gaunt phoenix
i think
1 fth
variance
without current tier
is crazy
in st
my boss damage range is wild
sometimes i do tank damage and sometimes i do 4mil st
idk
i dont really get it
mighty pivot
I love wow forums 
vivid vessel
this mf arguing in our cool thread again ..
mighty pivot
no this isn't mafic
but mafic did post again yes
there is no escape
the good news is that they ignore most feedback equally anyway
rotund depot
I love wow forums <:gladge:963970137701109820>
This sounds Xaethron coded
mighty pivot
This sounds Xaethron coded
it's some VDH ranting about how hard VDHs have had it throughout the history of the game (very in character) and tank balance https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/ptr-class-tuning-july-18/2133860/33
wind obsidian
they've been all over the ptr forum yapping about "vdh damage low in raid"
like anybody gives a shit
rotund depot
Holy fuck that thread is a banger
lime lake
I love wow forums <:gladge:963970137701109820>
this goes so hard
only little vulpera rats disagree
mighty pivot
there is basically no one discussing the changes posted in that thread btw
I think there were 3 posts about them
i feel sorry for whoever in blizzard (or BlizZard as mafic says) reads through the ptr threads
mighty pivot
can't go wrong
rotund depot
BlizZard and Systemlands
mighty pivot
maybe they read mage posts 
junior coral
a capo hero lvl better then 681 crafted for M+?
blissful thunder
!weaponswap
ornate heathBOT
You can swap most weapons in keys. Outlaw swaps between the Nightfall event weapon for trash and a better offhand for bosses, such as Capo (change the name):
/equipslot 17 Nightfall Curseblade's Cudgel
/equipslot 17 Capo's Molten Knuckles```
If your offhand is the same name as your mainhand, then the above macro won't work, you have to swap by bag slot:
```#showtooltip 17
/equipslot 17 Nightfall Curseblade's Cudgel
/equipslot 17 <bag #> <bag slot #>```
Note that **Gallywix's Iron Thumb** cannot be swapped in keys.
gaunt tulip
!wa
ornate heathBOT
Class packs:
- Guy's - Afenar's Edit Luxthos Edit
- Zac's Group Devlin
Utilities: - Combo Point Standalone
- Last GCD in Crackshot window / Subterfuge timer
- Ace refund sound trigger
- RtB buffs tracker (shows normal, CTO, and KIR'd buffs)
- Unseen Blade tracker
Fun: - Ace max combo counter and Ace current combo counter
- KS Ticking damage taken
mighty pivot
a capo hero lvl better then 681 crafted for M+?
yes for offhand ST
blissful thunder
what exactly defines aoe/st for the weapon swap? like 2t? 3t?
vivid vessel
2t+
mighty pivot
keep it simple and use capo's for all boss fights (I'pa is the only known boss to have resets of the cudgel afaik) and cudgel for trash
stray star
zac, do you have any m gally vod?
vivid vessel
oof
if you find a raid vod on my twitch ye
but i think i havent raided in a bit now
but if you go back a few weeks sure
stray star
Thx
blissful thunder
ah gotcha
craggy barn
im god damned awful at m mugzee
tender wedge
did you get prisoned
craggy barn
lol
desert tendon
<3
warped reef
!wa
ornate heathBOT
Class packs:
- Guy's - Afenar's Edit Luxthos Edit
- Zac's Group Devlin
Utilities: - Combo Point Standalone
- Last GCD in Crackshot window / Subterfuge timer
- Ace refund sound trigger
- RtB buffs tracker (shows normal, CTO, and KIR'd buffs)
- Unseen Blade tracker
Fun: - Ace max combo counter and Ace current combo counter
- KS Ticking damage taken
shell swallow
gaunt phoenix
yes, though it wants 4 set tier
jolly dune
Heya, I’m quite new wow gamer and want to get better at outlaw, gotten to ilvl 655 but feel like I’m not dealing the dps I should, anyone have any recommended guides, streamers, YouTube channels?
blissful thunder
why is outlaw played over sin rogue?
lone spear
Heya, I’m quite new wow gamer and want to get better at outlaw, gotten to ilvl 6...
i recommend starting with the outlaw-faq channel, it'll give you the rundown on the basics, and some more advance stuff when you're ready
lone spear
why is outlaw played over sin rogue?
easier, no gear requirement (outlaw needs certain amount of haste), has burst damage
gaunt phoenix
that sounds like why sin is played over outlaw
blissful thunder
^
gaunt phoenix
im not sure what you're looking at though
blissful thunder
just curious as most top rogues are outlaw rn
gaunt phoenix
sin is more popular in keys and raid
blissful thunder
huh maybe im being silly then
gaunt phoenix
some people are doing world first keys with pure physical comp
and outlaw deals pure phys dmg
that's kind of it really
lone spear
its also tankier by virtue of vers stacking
blissful thunder
mmm ic
just bar for bar no buffs and such, sin does more dam than outlaw?
is there a specific profile outlaw accomplishes better?
jolly dune
i recommend starting with the outlaw-faq channel, it'll give you the rundown on ...
Tyyy
lone spear
uhh, no raid buffs im not sure
with buffs outlaw is the highest damage spec in sims i think
!fuu
ornate heathBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
lone spear
ye it is
lone spear
is there a specific profile outlaw accomplishes better?
consistent cleave, since we give up very little to do it
blissful thunder
interesting that sub does the most on sims
thats not reflected in game 1:1 is it
also fatebound outlaw in keys?
are the dslice sims just wonky
gaunt phoenix
its a comparison showing you that fatebound is terrible
lone spear
are u looking at the fuu doc?
gaunt phoenix
because trickster is 15% better
lone spear
cause ur saying the opposite stuff rn xdd
gaunt phoenix
its a comparison showing you that fatebound is terrible
.
blissful thunder
oh 💀 for some reason it hoguht it was ordered by most to least dps
lone spear
yea trickster is better
whether or not you play HO or KiR will depend on your gear/preference
both are viable
blissful thunder
👍
gaunt phoenix
thats not reflected in game 1:1 is it
outlaw and sub have very similar single target results which is generally true
but sub is burst spec so it is affected by kill timer
also only 1 boss in the entire raid in single target (sprocket)
sacred saddle
its a comparison showing you that fatebound is terrible
lone spear
its getting better next patch friend
crude gulch
ok so ive been testing out OL because it can be one of my mains enxt season
and KS is the most cursed button i have ever pressed on this ame
more cursed than doing the font of power 45 second ritual on my mage in nyalotha
gaunt phoenix
at least it is being changed next season
crude gulch
to something more normal?
gaunt phoenix
yes, it will be a channel of gunfire
the duration is a bit long, we were hoping it was going to be addressed, but at least it wont kill you
lone spear
think of it like fist of fury, but we can also grapple around
frail veldt
to something more normal?
Something less death causing
It's definitely still uniqueb
frail veldt
think of it like fist of fury, but we can also grapple around
Oh you can grapple during it?
Just can't kick or defensive
lone spear
yea
i mean the situations where its gonna come up are pretty rare
buuut, its nice that its there
lone spear
yea i guess that is an important distinction
its not like current where you cant even if u wanted to
it does not lock you out of any moves
torpid fiber
i mean the situations where its gonna come up are pretty rare
I think grappling during KS is actually pretty huge tbh
It's probably going to make the slow basically a non-issue
frail veldt
you can use defensives as well
You can feint during it?
fathom bramble
yes
frail veldt
I think grappling during KS is actually pretty huge tbh
It's probably going to m...
Yeah that's massive
fathom bramble
feint/cloak/sprint/grapple/evasion
fathom bramble
it
frail veldt
If they had the technology to do so
torpid fiber
imo should be able to use non-damaging cc as well but like
being able to use your defensives is giga
frail veldt
it's the same as some other channels
A lot of specs have channels that aren't that way
fathom bramble
the WW hero talent is the same
frail veldt
Most casters can't
fathom bramble
defensives and movements are allowed, but kicks and offensives are not
frail veldt
Since fucking when what
frail veldt
Yeah
I've never seen that lol that's wild
That's def new tech
Warrior still can't move during theirs
fathom bramble
true
frail veldt
This some new shit for sure
fathom bramble
stealth/vanish also cancel KS if anyone was curious
not that you would ever need to cast vanish during it
lone spear
on ptr there were situations where because its optimal to cancel at 7cp, you can use vanish to cancel it into bte if adr is about to run out
lone spear
oh yea, i couldnt see the reason for that
actually i wanna test meld
my guess is it wont work
my guess was correct xdd
it cancels
white marten
Another outlaw buff @ launch, probably. Right boys?
lone spear
maybe another ST buff if the raid is as bad for us as we think
white marten
Probably a fatebound buff if anything
lone spear
fatebound is already really good in ST
white marten
Oh?
gaunt phoenix
fatebound will be used on st
fathom bramble
fatebound could afford to have something to make it less shit in aoe/cleave
white marten
Ahh okay
fathom bramble
but it does win in ST
blissful thunder
does meld into instant stealth work
lone spear
ye
fathom bramble
as long as you are not in combat with a boss
blissful thunder
like will i still get subterfuge if i get kicked out by a dot or smth
blissful thunder
as long as you are not in combat with a boss
wont let u in boss combat?
fathom bramble
yeah
boss combat prevents the followup stealth after melding
raid and dungeon bosses
blissful thunder
👍
gaunt phoenix
ive never been nelf to fuck with it
blissful thunder
just wondering what situations would kick u out
lone spear
its a small wait time
blissful thunder
so just boss combat kicks u and dot/aoe works?
lone spear
less than a gcd, longer than instant
gaunt phoenix
the issue is Meld breaking before you can stealth it seems
by movement, or damage, or idk
blissful thunder
meld cant break unless you move/cancel right?
gaunt phoenix
sometimes it just dont work
lone spear
usually if you press the buttons back to back (not a macro just 2 binds) then it will buffer the stealth
so it activates after the delay
could depend on your latency, that like internal latency thing, etc.
gaunt phoenix
some people have wack ass macros that claim to work better
gaunt phoenix
/cleartarget
/stopattack
/cast shadowmeld
/cancelaura shadowmeld
/stopattack
/cast stealth
/targetlasttarget```this is the one mewo uses
but he also like tries to turn around before using it
and also has to hit it twice?
blissful thunder
wackity
lone spear
gaunt phoenix
sounds like if you input left right left right ab ab start
the chances of successfully executing meld into stealth are improved by 38%
fathom bramble
if you swap to dwarf you'll never fail a shadowmeld
gaunt phoenix
true
bright lodge
How do you spam SnD before pull? I only refund cp 3 times at most for me
gaunt phoenix
!sndbug
ornate heathBOT
There is once again a bug that lets you spam 
Slice and Dice during downtime for CDR. It works by causing SnD to refund CPs as if it benefits from Supercharger.
To activate the bug have to consume Supercharger once normally with RTB > finisher, and then SnD will bug out until your next damaging finisher, so you can spam a cancelaura macro while it is bugged. From 1CP, SnD will have an 80% chance to refund CPs so you can't spam it forever. To activate it between pulls, you have to delay RTB until towards the end of the pack. This can mean that trying to activate the bug can cost you more dps than it's worth.
The bug is not a secret to 7 million overalls, it can mostly just help you get AR back through periods of forced downtime. You can also use it prekey to try to spam RTB for a natural 5 roll.
/cast Slice and Dice```Oh ty. Thought you could reliably prolong Alacrity stacks or farm it b4 pull that way
Wait. Can it be executed with 3 Supercharged points or I must consume 1 after rtb?
bright lodge
I will look for actual crawling bugs or butterflies prekey then
gaunt phoenix
prekey youcan summon a dummy toy
lone spear
summon a dummy (me)
ornate heathBOT
Pre-key fuckery
- RTB as you enter the dungeon to get 2 Supercharger stacks.
- DO NOT RTB again inside the bubble as you will lose the supercharger stacks, similarly do not
AR early inside the bubble or you will lose the combo points. - After the bubble drops use RTB again (now at 4 stacks of Supercharger).
- Before entering the first pack
BF into 
Stealth. - Open on pack with AR into BtE.
bright lodge
I saw zac was KSing prekey. Why?
gaunt phoenix
KS gives you 2 unseen blades and you can carry this into a key too
they are fixing that one though
bright lodge
I tried also didn’t work for me. That’s why I guess
lone spear
you know what i just remembered
its another major patch and the audacity bug isnt fixed
i wonder if they ever will get to it
maybe theyre not sure how to rebalance HO if they take it out?
its not a massive gain is it?
tender wedge
Won’t be playing it next season anyway so it can go under the radar another 6 months at least
lone spear
its like 2.5%
jesus thats alot
wintry solar
It's a lot but kinda feels inconsequential for blizzard to leave it.
I imagine it's not high on their list
lone spear
i mean the fix is super simple iirc, its just taking the wrong spell id or sumtin
its just having to rebalance HO, not only the numbers but also how it feels to play
tho at this point its so ingrained they may as well just add text to audacity to make it canon
though also make it work on regular ambush button and not just SS turned into ambush
sacred plinth
if i want to play outlaw and maybe some assassin does it make sense to craft a dagger and use in the offhand for outlaw?
mighty pivot
!oh
ornate heathBOT
A dagger offhand is technically like 0.2% better than a slow weapon because it generates more 
Instant Poison procs. That is the only difference, 
Fatal Flourish proc rate is normalized to be unaffected by the change in attack speed. Note that item level or stats will matter more than this quirk, or you can simply use a slow weapon anyway for transmog.
mighty pivot
but this season there are some special offhands which are better
dull geyser
is there anyway to get above 92% AR? I cant seem to break that in keys, its kinda making me mad
and how do you guys keep uptime on kujo?
sacred plinth
ty for the replies above
tender wedge
and how do you guys keep uptime on kujo?
You can cloak if you really get in a bind, otherwise strategic dropping and holding next ADR
proper bear
ornate heathBOT
Class packs:
- Guy's - Afenar's Edit Luxthos Edit
- Zac's Group Devlin
Utilities: - Combo Point Standalone
- Last GCD in Crackshot window / Subterfuge timer
- Ace refund sound trigger
- RtB buffs tracker (shows normal, CTO, and KIR'd buffs)
- Unseen Blade tracker
Fun: - Ace max combo counter and Ace current combo counter
- KS Ticking damage taken
lone spear
is there anyway to get above 92% AR? I cant seem to break that in keys, its kind...
on kujo its difficult
depending on your healer its possible to stay out with feint and live, up to about a +16 i did
sudden fulcrum
KUJO is such an awful boss
lone spear
otherwise you just try and vanish with ADR up when the phase starts
since you take no dam behind box
it wont break it
just some clever ADR usage can squeeze out a bit more, but workshop specifically can just be cringe for outlaw
mighty pivot
and how do you guys keep uptime on kujo?
I save my cloak for a good roll not to waste it. Then you have 2 options, either you spend a vanish when you hide behind the box, or you time your AR so that it's ready by the time you are out of the box (or by not refreshing it for 2-3s if kujo is about to cast his big aoe)
tender wedge
just some clever ADR usage can squeeze out a bit more, but workshop specifically...
zac saiud something that hit home the other day about how people get caught up on target count with outlaw but a bigger factor is dungeon pacing, which is why outlaw can do so well in cinderbrew and priory (i.e. big pull dungeons) but workshop - which seems like it should be good due to a lot of smaller pulls - is terrible because there's just SO many breaks
lone spear
yea, i been agreeing that the "uncap outlaw" thing is a red herring, particularly since buffed precise cuts makes us insane low target cleave classes without sacraficing big pull throughput
lone spear
zac saiud something that hit home the other day about how people get caught up o...
yea, which sucks since ara-kara and dawnbreaker are similar in that regard
and they're baaaack
lone spear
yuh
tender wedge
DB might be an assass key for me lol
lone spear
tazavesh also has decent downtime come to think of it
hmmmge, might not be a great tier for us in raid or m+
the new dungeon* is a cluster of enemies though, should feel similar to priory
tender wedge
i don't play at a high enough level for it to really matter so i'll do it anyway
torpid fiber
gambit first pull was the only pull in low keys that ever made me feel shit about outlaw target cap tbh
even though the rest of the dungeon was fine for the spec tbh
but gambit first pull as outlaw in like a +9 was miserable bc i did 0dps and also no one else was helping with fish sticks
that must be how healers feel all the time
tender wedge
funnily enough thats what got me into outlaw back in SL, i did no damage but felt like i could cover most interrupts and let my mates play degen lol
torpid fiber
yeah it was super fun
but also that specific pull felt awful bc most of the time it felt like you could kinda do both
kyrian dust when you got to double kick...
what a fun build
it does really suck though that we've gone from kinda a bag of tricks spec with useful utility for dungeons to a spec that does basically nothing except for damage, without our actual utility kit getting any smaller
just every other class got such an absurd amount more util from df talent trees
sudden fulcrum
it is really dumb that shroud used to be our staple and blizzard just decided one day that the only way to fix that rogues were so useful was to make shroud useless
torpid fiber
i think the fact that they both added invis pots and changed dungeon design so shroud was less needed was awkward
invis pots imo are a good addition, but also it's rough that shroud is less useful now a decent amount of the time
drums should go back to 25% haste though
(i also continue to think that every spec should have access to at least one of lust, a brez, or a dispel (probably curse dispel specifically given how often those are the ones where having an extra one in the group trivialises mechanics). Those are the specific utility that the keys the average person is playing in care about when choosing their group)
cinder relic
homogenous utility 👎
lone spear
(i also continue to think that every spec should have access to at least one of ...
i think its one of those things that blizzard want to preserve going forward, just from a game philosophy standpoint
i think giving paladins a brez really opened the floodgates tho
torpid fiber
homogenous utility 👎
i'd agree but also it's just kinda awkward that there's a few classes where if there's already one in a key you have basically 0 chance of being invited if you apply, even for actual low keys
lone spear
i think thats something theyre willing to accept
if it means preserving that feeling of bringing something not everyone else can
torpid fiber
I don't think it should be, basically. I think utility that's already on a bunch of classes is fine to distribute more.
I don't think every class should have all 3, but they should all have at least 1
lone spear
i think the problem is utility isnt equally valuable
torpid fiber
there can be both unique utility and also utility that is shared
lone spear
but idk, its so hard to balance utility
torpid fiber
and lust/brez/dispels are already shared utility
lone spear
like in some dungeons, especially in DF, mind soothe was so insane
cinder relic
but idk, its so hard to balance utility
I mean utility is inherently niche and ppl under/overvalue them based on the season
rsham utility was worthless for years in dungeons
And then 1 season "HOLY FUCK RSHAM HEALING IS REQUIRED FOR KEYS"
lone spear
yea, thats the thing, unless every dungeon has a use for a classes unique utility
(which would then homogenzie dungeons)
it'll kinda just be like this
but idk, i dont think its a huge deal, its just how they want the game to be, dont think its objectively good or bad
do think rogue should get like 1 extra cool utility, given how shroud has lost so much value
aoe blind was aight, but eh
wintry solar
kinda buggy
lone spear
also doesnt work on mechs
which feels like such a classic thing lmao
idk, i think rogue does have the sort of "greedy" utility, in that it is insanely unkillable and has great mobility
but soothe being tied to shiv, which is rotational for ass, is kinda lame
lone spear
i agree, though ass should maybe just get cold wire for free then
dawn talon
nah that shit is gamebreaking if you lose nothing for it
lone spear
i mean, then its not broken is it
grim spear
so why can't mechanical units be blinded? DHs can be blinded.
lone spear
because if it was broken, then we would see ass in every dungeon
im not saying "give ass 5% more damage"
it would just be a perception thing
of not having to "lose" damage to take their utility
lone spear
so why can't mechanical units be blinded? DHs can be blinded.
you have to say "blound" btw
its gonna catch on trust
lone spear
maybe it would make ass more desirable than the other specs in dungeons if they also did good damage regardless
especially if u didnt need soothe/got it elsewhere
idk if thats the case right now tho
maybe you just give each spec some cool utility. i think having a big knockback as outlaw would be sick
knockback some mobs, then grapple over to them
thats a cool fantasy
tho it is basically bursting shot
fuck it yoink it from hunters 
lone spear
i think that "drink up me hearties" pvp talent would be so cool
and flavourful
a group heal would also be unique to group shield from mages
requires more thought
since it can lose value
wintry solar
yeah. Assuming its buffed ofc. It's pretty bad
lone spear
yea naturally
dawn talon
i dont want to press that shit
wintry solar
I doubt he has kick bound
lone spear
hasnt kidney'd all season i reckon
sudden fulcrum
kidney doesn't increase dps, not bound
tender wedge
it can 😛
lone spear
once this season for fun i used a whole sub window just cheap shotting a pack after evoker roar
shit was peak
dawn talon
i got kidney bound but im pressing cloak and letting everyone else die before i spend a gcd on kidney
grim spear
I think the real issue is that players are strong
this game’s dungeons are still about the tank holding aggro, the healer topping people off, and the DPS steamrolling everything
Utility just makes that process smoother. It can never be the main character.
sudden fulcrum
well it already is
lone spear
yea, but ii think thats fine
sudden fulcrum
sigil of chains + beam is owning dungeons right now
tender wedge
but you'd do it if it allowed an otherwise impossible pull
grim spear
But some utility abilities do affect the route, and that can make a huge difference.
wintry solar
if cheapshot procced opp I wouldnt mind
tender wedge
remember when sub rogues had AoE kidney
that was almost as cracked as restless crew
at least it made it to ptr
grim spear
those ancient days of sap–poly–trap to solo pull a single mob were actually pretty fun.
tender wedge
at the time i guess it felt fulfilling
grim spear
Especially after we've been AOEing everything for quite a lot of years.
tender wedge
but the gameplay required around that doesn't compare to modern game
grim spear
it feels more RPG
It also requires some team coordination, but in a way, it actually feels better than the “you kick star, I kick triangle” type of stuff
sudden fulcrum
i'm not sure we could even time dungeons if we played like that, one mob at a time
the whole reason we reached this point where the packs keep getting bigger is because in order to time the key you have to kill more mobs faster
grim spear
imo why do we even have things like progression? It doesn't feel meaningful at all anymore
sudden fulcrum
well, it is. keys go up and get harder
grim spear
the story of each dungeon is completely irrelevant now, there's no real objective. It's just pure "game" at this point.
dawn talon
i never really gave a fuck about the story to begin with
sudden fulcrum
i don't think it ever was relevant, at least in the context of m+
dawn talon
i logged into the game to hit the boss and chill w the bros
lone spear
its how the dungeons tie into the campaigns now
dungeons arent the culmination of a zone really
theyre just side-things that are happening
grim spear
It’s not even an RPG anymore
it’s just a loot-grind game.
The problem is, it doesn’t even drop loot.
lone spear
you mean dungeons?
grim spear
m+
sudden fulcrum
well, it kind of can't, if you mean keys - because it's endlessly grindable
grim spear
I really don’t like M+.
sudden fulcrum
haha i can tell
lone spear
i think WoW, like many games, are a product of their times
we live in an era where people are more goal driven than ever
they wanna see that number go up
thankfully there are still games that are just about being enraptured by a story
tender wedge
thats why classic remains so popular
lone spear
though WoW, and most live services, arent really about that
tender wedge
it's literally a different game at this point
grim spear
for m+, every dungeon basically feels the same
dawn talon
huh?
tender wedge
both can exist in harmony
lone spear
i thnik its interesting that classic is popular despite there being a sweaty speedrun culture
i think its because there are enough people that do take it chill
dawn talon
especially on outlaw even individual runs of dungeons feel noticeably different
grim spear
but why are we even here? What are we killing these mobs for?
lone spear
blood for the blood god
sudden fulcrum
but why are we even here? What are we killing these mobs for?
i don't think many people do this anymore, but reading the quests might give some clues
craggy kelp
brain feel good when number go up
lone spear
it gives context, but it doesnt give story
like the dungeon quests are just 1 quest outside the dungeon
sudden fulcrum
i don't think story has really been a strong point in WoW for a long time
grim spear
Dungeons should have a narrative
lone spear
and the rest of the "story" is told as you play it
but thats not enough to be engaging
grim spear
are we sneaking in, launching a full assault, racing to reach a certain place? Are we trying to stop some kind of ritual?
tender wedge
dungeons do have a narrative if you follow the quests that lead to them
grim spear
Now it's just a progress bar.
tender wedge
it's just less focussed on
dawn talon
are we sneaking in, launching a full assault, racing to reach a certain place? A...
but this is still told envirornmentally?
like
better than it ever was in the past
grim spear
dungeons do have a narrative if you follow the quests that lead to them
no, the narrative should be part of the gameplay itself
not just a wall of text they throw at you and expect you to read.
tender wedge
i feel like you're just talking about a different game
though
like i get it if that's what you want
but WoW isn't that game, if it ever was, and thats ok too
there's literally dozens off mmos out there
sudden fulcrum
i do think it would be cooler if we were given more of a story about why we're in this dungeon or at least what the goal is besides to kill everyone
tender wedge
we are though, people just blast through the zones and don't follow the story much
im not gonna argue that it's necessarily good
sudden fulcrum
well i legitimately have no idea why we go into PSF and kill all the fanatics. is that the only solution to the problem?
grim spear
It’s just a seasonal dungeon-running game.
just a bit of a shame, knowing what it could have been.
tender wedge
did you do the main hallowfall story quest (and read the txt / follow what you were doing) ?
wintry solar
did you do the main hallowfall story quest (and read the txt / follow what you w...
Great zone
Good story
sudden fulcrum
i did every quest in Khaz Algar, though i probably didn't pay attention enough to understand everything
lone spear
you can play the game just doing the story, but you probably wouldnt be getting your moneys worth even if just subbing for that
tender wedge
you read some of those posts and understand these are seriously unhinged folk and you kinda understand
wintry solar
Nobody listens to them irl
grim spear
Back in the old days, wow could actually pull you "in" the game and its story
tender wedge
nobody listens to them online either to be fair
grim spear
now it just pushes you out.
wintry solar
Also true
sudden fulcrum
back in my day, story mattered, and you had to play through the story uphill both ways in the snow
tender wedge
vibes
sudden fulcrum
and you had to beat the game if you wanted to use cheat codes!
frank finch
tender wedge
i disagree, i don't think it pushes you out
the game just used to take longer and didn't NEED as much replayability
so the story pacing and gameplay pacing matched better
grim spear
That’s the real root of “homogenization” and “utility” issues.
cinder relic
The problem is, it doesn’t even drop loot.
M+ is probably the single most rewarding piece of content in this game lol
grim spear
If there’s no need to sneak in, then why bring a rogue at all?
“Skipping mobs” just sounds like such a boring concept.
sudden fulcrum
well if you like the RPG aspects you can pretend that it's so you don't set off alarms
tender wedge
these sound like some oldhead takes ngl, each to their own but
wintry solar
Then underpin spawns on you and you fall through the ground
grim spear
Now it doesn’t feel like I’m playing a "class" at all
just different flavors of DPS machines with slightly different controls.
tender wedge
back to AoC with you sir
sudden fulcrum
i think you're being willfully reductive
lone spear
M+ is probably the single most rewarding piece of content in this game lol
i think he was talking about like when you kill a mob in a normal dungeon they have loot on their corpses
sudden fulcrum
which is fine, you don't have to like WoW, but to pretend everything is the same is not even close to true if you ask me
tender wedge
just different flavors of DPS machines with slightly different controls.
This in particular was literally always the case with WoW
What’s a shadow bolt other than a purple fireball
What’s wrath other than a yellow lightning bolt
lone spear
if nothing else i think its crazy that the specs can feel as different as they are
despite there being 39
sudden fulcrum
that's like saying Omniman from Invincible is the same as Superman - and yes, they do have similarities, but to pretend any of this is true is just closing your eyes and ignoring the details
wintry solar
Theme and visuals go a long way tbh
grim spear
The difference between classes should be about what they can do
achieving different goals in different ways.
the game only has one goal.
tender wedge
that's like saying Omniman from Invincible is the same as Superman - and yes, th...
I’m being deliberately obtuse here lol
Visuals go crazy
grim spear
So “utility” ends up being something that doesn’t really matter no matter how you design it.
tender wedge
I love ele shaman for example
tender wedge
Disagree
There’s definitely vibing between specs even if I can’t describe why
Rogue has almost zero great visuals but nothing else I play gives me the same sense of enjoyment
grim spear
Balance is what’s stopping them from putting anything truly meaningful into the classes.
well
that's mmo i think
tender wedge
You’re just describing classic though
lone spear
like life grip
tender wedge
If you want that game, it exists and you don’t even need a new sub
sudden fulcrum
we're watching someone become a classic player in real time
wintry solar
You’re just describing classic though
I've been waiting for classic to not be boring
Since 2019?
tender wedge
Good luck
wintry solar
Yeah no dice
grim spear
If you want that game, it exists and you don’t even need a new sub
That’s not it
I still want modern wow
Even if it’s not evolving exactly the way I’d like, at least it is evolving.
lone spear
you have to recognize that classic is always going to be slower and easier than retail
wintry solar
Classic is okay with friends
sudden fulcrum
i played classic when it was retail so it's kind of unbearable for me since i've been corrupted by the innovations of modern retail
wintry solar
i played classic when it was retail so it's kind of unbearable for me since i've...
I can't believe we played rogue in that state
And were okay with it
tender wedge
Classic rogue was pretty good for the time I think, compared to other classes
But yeah try play it today and hooooly
sudden fulcrum
when i saw combo points on target again i was like NAH man not again
tender wedge
Yerp
sudden fulcrum
it really makes you appreciate how far retail has come
lone spear
if redirect wasnt a thing in MoP, i would legit not be playing it
wintry solar
Idc how low of a CD redirect is. I'm not playing it
lone spear
its basically 0
as combat anyway
almost wrote outlaw xdd
GOD i want them to do legion classic, i just dont know if it'll happen
wintry solar
I'd like classic wow with modern classes.
lone spear
the borrowed power grind is so antithetical to the chill classic vibes
sudden fulcrum
legion remix would be pretty dope if they iterated on the bad parts about artifacts
lone spear
I'd like classic wow with modern classes.
same, i think i woulda preferred remix without the insane power scaling
but like, having that as just a mini thing wouldnt work
it would need to be its own thing
wintry solar
I'd like classic wow with modern classes.
I actually dk how this work with class trainers
Which tbh I enjoy.
tender wedge
I think I’m lining up a DH for remix, I don’t vibe with it on live but playing mop remix helped me find enjoyment for a couple of specs as well
tender wedge
And obviously I want those leather mogs for my rogue 😂
wintry solar
Absolutely
I'll level the lock but depending on how the artifact weapons are done, I'll level a rogue.
If they're like the cloak, I probably wont.
tender wedge
Good point actually
Rogue was my least played class in legion so I didn’t unlock much
wintry solar
I only played unholy and outlaw
lone spear
i played rogue, but my legendaries were trash so i stopped till tomb and swapped to dh
wakening essence day 1 is gonna be so nice
sudden fulcrum
the RNG legendaries were so bad
my friend was playing priest and she unlocked the best one last. i think it was a cloak
every single legendary except for the good one
chilly atlas
blizzard makes systems good in last patch
sudden fulcrum
yup
lone spear
thats the thing bro, i think since the borrowed power expacs got all the good QoL by the end, those expacs as classic would be really fun
stuck sparrow
alot of people are forgetting
tender wedge
My first two on main were Prydaz and sephuz, both prebuff
sudden fulcrum
corruption was also good in its last iteration
stuck sparrow
first tier of mop was not well received
chilly atlas
yep
wintry solar
Torghast
chilly atlas
honestly i liked torghast in first iteration when it was actually not faceroll, they just need to make it not mandatory
they could've made it good
tender wedge
honestly i liked torghast in first iteration when it was actually not faceroll, ...
I remember people HATED the daily grind early on
wintry solar
It was really fun the first 2 times
chilly atlas
lol yeah
wintry solar
Then you realize you weren't even halfway done with the grind
I was nightfae at that time too so all that renown was wasted
chilly atlas
blunderbussy venthyr was pretty cool late sl
lone spear
dude thats what i want, a big ass "fuck you" button on outlaw
just like that scene from indiana jones
vapid sundial
But ig I was also one of the first Gsw enjoyer so what do I know
sudden fulcrum
i can't believe they didn't use a lot of the covenant stuff in future talent builds or something
the NF soulshape was goated
maybe too goated
wintry solar
I didn't play gsw until s2
vapid sundial
Unironically I forgot the guy's name
That so fucked up
But he and I were basically the only Gsw players
lone spear
you guys think greenskin is a derogatory term for goblins in-universe?
wintry solar
I wish it was
wintry solar
Deadeye
stuck sparrow
but yeah
vapid sundial
Kyw my beloved
gaunt phoenix
you guys think greenskin is a derogatory term for goblins in-universe?
it was orcs
vapid sundial
Nu uh
wintry solar
There's a goblin named greenskin in deadmines
vapid sundial
I refused
wintry solar
Captain Greenskin, excuse me.
wintry solar
was a real option
Wasn't it bugged though?
vapid sundial
Be a good looking race
lone spear
also are you leaving us for a vacation start of this tier too?
vapid sundial
Hate orcs
lone spear
we need you to find the good builds
wintry solar
what CANT they do
Be nice
gaunt phoenix
they removed some references to greenskins after the lawsuit stuff
Cuz fictional characters cant be racist of course
lone spear
naturally
vapid sundial
sudden fulcrum
my HR training at work referenced stuff that actually happened at Blizzard
i was laughing my ass off
vapid sundial
Cuz fictional characters cant be racist of course
Me when almost all fictional elf / dwarven character hates eachother
To a fundamental level
jolly geyser
wintry solar
Every race in azeroth would be on a watch list for terrorism
lone spear
stuck sparrow
ngl
sudden fulcrum
they have a nose for trouble
vapid sundial
wintry solar
Besides yiff in moon guard
Did they have to do more?
lone spear
i hate when people try to apply real world logic
its moreso like
vapid sundial
I need a 'repub if you're small and fluffy'
dawn talon
Cuz fictional characters cant be racist of course
it was too reminiscent of real life antisemitic conspiracies
lone spear
the inability to distinguish fiction and reality
jolly geyser
been belf since like late mop,so cant hate em ig
dawn talon
and some of the writers involved in the lawsuits were connected to some antisemitic hate groups
so they just got rid of it
wintry solar
Been undead since 04 and have done questionable things for sure
sudden fulcrum
yikes
dawn talon
to avoid any bad tastes left in people's mouths
vapid sundial
Idk I Disagree with that
stuck sparrow
the inability to distinguish fiction and reality
peak unemployed behavior
vapid sundial
We don't agree with the person but we respect our games lore and history so we will leave it as is
Is my thought
sudden fulcrum
ok but what if they are making your game lore their personal antisemitic adventure?
it should be expunged along with them
dawn talon
yes, i think in general they were a little too heavyhanded with the sanitisation, but the greenskin stuff was very much justified
lone spear
ok but what if they are making your game lore their personal antisemitic adventu...
yea i mean, this is where the difficulty comes in
gaunt phoenix
i see
covert timber
Rogue buffs pog
lone spear
its because blizzard had a toxic culture, they removed the stuff that was toxic
because some of it was likely put in there to reflect their toxic views
stuck sparrow
I know people were complaining
vapid sundial
because some of it was likely put in there to reflect their toxic views
This is why I don't understand when they name characters after devs
lone spear
i mean they are based in calafornia
vapid sundial
Bc it causes stupid issues
stuck sparrow
twitter replies be wild sometimes
vapid sundial
Mccree for example
lone spear
one of the most progressive places in the world
ofc they will have a diverse group of people yaknow, its just the nature of the beast
covert timber
twitter replies be wild sometimes
X.com brother
vapid sundial
Twitter.
sudden fulcrum
it will always be twitter to me
vapid sundial
Someone ban this man.
wintry solar
It'll always be cancer
lone spear
X the everything app
lone spear
wasnt it like tumblr that banned goonposting
lone spear
xdd
vapid sundial
When that's most of what the app was used for
Surely alienating 90% of my user base will lead me to success
dawn talon
tbf the porn ban was only like 1/3 of the issue
wintry solar
wasnt it like tumblr that banned goonposting
Was just thinking of this
dawn talon
tumblr was sold off with the intent of turning it into a fandom/art site
stuck sparrow
tumblr still has goon content
albeit its more written
which makes sense since it has more women
dawn talon
artfight completely stole the overlap between those two and so you had the I'm An Artist Here Is My Portfolio blogs completely alienated from the fandom teenagers completely alienated from the Homestuck Corner, and that was awkward
stuck sparrow
ig?
dawn talon
and then you had the general shift from people writing smut and poetry to people writing smut or poetry and doing it on ao3 or twitter respectively
vapid sundial
Twitter rp be like
dawn talon
and then you had like the biggest blowout between the community and staff in tumblr history up to that point happening within like 2 months of the acquisition
vapid sundial
violet bison
!WA
ornate heathBOT
Class packs:
- Guy's - Afenar's Edit Luxthos Edit
- Zac's Group Devlin
Utilities: - Combo Point Standalone
- Last GCD in Crackshot window / Subterfuge timer
- Ace refund sound trigger
- RtB buffs tracker (shows normal, CTO, and KIR'd buffs)
- Unseen Blade tracker
Fun: - Ace max combo counter and Ace current combo counter
- KS Ticking damage taken
dawn talon
and it just completely killed all good will people had with staff so even the big tumblr people left for other sites
vapid sundial
Atleast it showed that killing the horny is not a good idea
dawn talon
it just depends on the type of platform you run
stuck sparrow
they act as if
stuck sparrow
kids dont have access
vapid sundial
You can't change something like that
dawn talon
tumblr wasn't even that horny tbh
stuck sparrow
to google
dawn talon
like tumblr's biggest issue was trying to become like the singular fandom space on the internet
tender wedge
tumblr was horny for what you'd think it was, but in the context of the wider internet it was about on par
dawn talon
nah most fandom spaces are 90% children posting shitty art and theories that don't make sense
dawn talon
which is why they're so profitable for social media platforms
they're high traffic users who are online all the time lol
vapid sundial
Why do you think hazbin hotel is doing good
It's basically a retreat for homestuck
dawn talon
It's basically a retreat for homestuck
all the homestucks hate vivziepop
vapid sundial
all the homestucks hate vivziepop
Weird bc I know a lot of them who love it
dawn talon
like all the annoying discourse in the past 4 years
esp. among secondaries
has been over whether or not vivziepop is the devil (no) and consuming anything touched by her makes you ontologically evil (also no)
digital circus is the real homestuck bait
stuck sparrow
im going to be honest
stuck sparrow
when im consuming fictional media
dawn talon
she writes for millennials with mommy issues and it works
dawn talon
idc either way
vapid sundial
Not have real world brought in
dawn talon
art exists in the context of the people making it
dawn talon
that is not trrue
vapid sundial
Japanese creators don't care about western ideals
Is the better way to put it
Lol
dawn talon
that is much more accurate
stuck sparrow
Well yeah
dawn talon
japanese media is full of political commentary, moreso than western media usually
stuck sparrow
the virtuesignaling in western media is just tiring
vapid sundial
Their ideals are what was I guess seen as 'more normal' in the west like
20 years ago now
So it probably just doesn't get noticed
Bc it used to be the norm
stuck sparrow
I do find it hilarious some japanese still view england as some victorian era haven
dawn talon
Their ideals are what was I guess seen as 'more normal' in the west like
that's only the stuff that makes it over here for the most part
vapid sundial
Yeah
vapid sundial
I do find it hilarious some japanese still view england as some victorian era ha...
And not the hell hole it is?
dawn talon
i very briefly helped my cousin localise indie films from jp->kr
stuck sparrow
Yeah
dawn talon
and there was so much stuff that we could not localise because it was just
so backwards
that it would genuinely ruin my public image
to be attached to localising it
timid zephyr
with supercharger and 4pc, which has higher prio in subterfuge? bte or rerolling under 5 buffs (HO)
dawn talon
no, not oldschool, deliberately and maliciously regressive
gaunt phoenix
with supercharger and 4pc, which has higher prio in subterfuge? bte or rerolling...
rtb
dawn talon
the moderates are fine even if i disagree with them about everything besides gambling
vapid sundial
Solo watching us yap and doing green things
vapid sundial
gaunt phoenix
but you can also keep 4 buffs until they become 3
stuck sparrow
I was playing
vapid sundial
the moderates are fine even if i disagree with them about everything besides gam...
Gambling should be banned or more regulated Idk
timid zephyr
man i really need a WA to track my buffs aye
stuck sparrow
a 2000s era capcom game collection rerelease
and they had to add a content warning
vapid sundial
stuck sparrow
that some content might be considered offensive
vapid sundial
Mafia 3 did that too
dawn talon
Gambling should be banned or more regulated Idk
i won't get into it here bc it's heavy & gross but the way that gambling is intentionally used to endebt young (UNDERAGED!!!!) women for sinister purposes
in rural japan
is horrifying
stuck sparrow
Let’s just say having your character get into a “rap battle” with a complexioned character in a country that is supposed to be a depiction of america
doesnt fly nowadays
dawn talon
those cutesy gachapon and pachinko arcades you see on social media are owned by the genuine most evil people on earth
vapid sundial
Let’s just say having your character get into a “rap battle” with a complexioned...
So is shark tales racist now
Or
stuck sparrow
pachinkos are basically gambling
vapid sundial
I think people need to relax a bit more with media and understand not everything is meant to offend
On both sides
stuck sparrow
Yeah idk i just dont enjoy when people grasp at straws of fictional characters
and try to say its offensive to a real thing they made a parallel to
lone spear
this is true, but at the same time its important to understand how it can be problematic to perpetuate stereotypes in fiction, unless its done with the express purpose of hating on it
dawn talon
I think people need to relax a bit more with media and understand not everything...
i get this to an extent but like. old balrog was a giant black thug who spat when he talked and ate watermelon and spent his time off camera shooting dice and hanging with gangsters
stuck sparrow
granted wtf was toriyama doing
dawn talon
that shit was not cool
lone spear
exactly, there are levels to it yaknow
vapid sundial
There is a reason for my saying not everything
vapid sundial
I feel that was ignorance
I disagree
dawn talon
I feel that was ignorance
and that's why they changed mr. popo when politely informed of the cultural context
vapid sundial
Didn't he make another dark character from a poor impoverished village
dawn talon
it's not hard for people to not be animals about it, artists are only human after all
dawn talon
getting vitriolic over it i agree is ridiculous but it's fine to say something when easily misinterpreted things pop up
vapid sundial
Uub
lone spear
japan has a history of problems with depiction of dark skinned characters in media
stuck sparrow
basically
unless its dark elves
which means we gave the dark shader
to regular elves
and thats it
lone spear
storm in the new arcsys marvel fighting game looks sick though
vapid sundial
Ehhh Idk
lone spear
some of the best design
vapid sundial
Dark elves get racist treatments a lot too
'dark elves are evil'
A lot of the time.
dawn talon
japan has a history of problems with depiction of dark skinned characters in med...
phrenology had a big impact on the cultural depiction of african culture & early hiphop that deployed soldiers brought with them had a big influence on their opinions of african americans (and videogame osts)
vapid sundial
No.
dawn talon
so you get like
vapid sundial
Elves are from Norse , no?
Tolkien just helped them get more mainstream attention?
dawn talon
tbh who first made elves
elves as we know them have a pretty sad history in that they are just a bunch of nazi gnostic mythology misinterpreting nordic folklore
but who really gives a fuck bc they're really far removed from that
it's more trivia than anything else now
stuck sparrow
Yeah dark elves realistically are just a style choice
Though i think most fantasy settings they are not good aligned
or neutral at best
sudden fulcrum
in BG3 a lot of the people you encounter are openly racist against you if you play a drow
stuck sparrow
in BG3 a lot of the people you encounter are openly racist against you if you pl...
See: warcraft universe wars
its a bit comical how trolls lose like every war
dawn talon
the depiction of trolls until like. wrath honestly
is lowk offensive asl but it's too funny to be mad at
stuck sparrow
”we have our primal gods”
dawn talon
and by bfa they got someone who actually knows what a loa is to write something for 15 minutes
so it's fine now
stuck sparrow
”we have guys in blue hars shooting fireballs”
stuck sparrow
and by bfa they got someone who actually knows what a loa is to write something ...
i still forget why horde is suddenly on good terms with zandalar
magic shuttle
Horde needed a fleet to match kul tiras and the zandalari had one
left canyon
Hey all, another new guy question. My Killing Sprees seem to be getting cut off a bunch, ive added no channeling to all my macros but its still happening, if there a macro yall use to stop that?
lone spear
im assuming this is on the ptr
i havent really had issues like that on my end
then again i havent changed any of my binds with that in mind
i just cancel at 7 combot points (or i dont if im feeling lazy its such a small gain)
timid zephyr
!wa
ornate heathBOT
Class packs:
- Guy's - Afenar's Edit Luxthos Edit
- Zac's Group Devlin
Utilities: - Combo Point Standalone
- Last GCD in Crackshot window / Subterfuge timer
- Ace refund sound trigger
- RtB buffs tracker (shows normal, CTO, and KIR'd buffs)
- Unseen Blade tracker
Fun: - Ace max combo counter and Ace current combo counter
- KS Ticking damage taken
torpid fiber
Hey all, another new guy question. My Killing Sprees seem to be getting cut off...
are you using kick and/or pressing a dps button during them
finite arch
I havent look at any of the new gear in s3 but whats our overall dps gonna look like after losing TD and cudgel dmg potentially also capo fist later on in the season
are we still gonna have the belt or nah?
lone spear
we recently got a buff to our ST, which is good
the way the tier is set up doesnt bode great for us, so it still might not be enough, we'll see
azure vortex
I think the worst part is losing the curremt tier bonuses
lone spear
i think its fine, we had our fun of lots of 5 rolls
KiR is also looking to be the go-to anyway, so its not like we'll be playing with low buffs
lone spear
i mean aye
we'll be really good on 4th and 5th boss
so maybe that'll bait guilds into bringing us to the 6th
strange halo
i mean m+ 😄
tender wedge
Everyone loses corruptions and belt as well so it’s all relative
lone spear
i mean m+ 😄
oh our m+ is looking good
the dungeon pool is kinda cringe cause of the downtime, but just damage wise we chillin
tender wedge
Belt will get replaced with heroic raid gear
lone spear
are corruptions legit just turned off next patch?
tender wedge
Yeah
lone spear
so weird man
tender wedge
You can read the item on the vendor
lone spear
like surely they can just take it into account and let us keep it
proven ocean
OUTLAWO P
OMGOMGOMG
9m overall
m
_
i dont have
my plus
keybnind
its
not workiong
but
lone spear
huh