#outlaw
cinder relic
vivid vessel
nice pin buddy
cinder relic
Outlaw Changes:
These changes are an 8% single target buff, and a 1-5% AoE buff depending on target count. That is all.
cinder relic
__**Outlaw Changes:**__
These changes are an 8% single target buff, and a 1-5% A...
Solo be yappin too much in these pins sometimes 💯
This all u need
limpid onyx
So gm was compensated to still be 10% added bf damage, which goes nicely with 10% dmg buff
jolly geyser
cinder relic
frank finch
jolly geyser
I like using the thicker garf
lone spear
he looks kinda freaky in that
jolly geyser
Fits me then
brisk meadow
🥕 ahh garf
lone spear
Solo be yappin too much in these pins sometimes 💯
i like solos yapping
cinder relic
so do I
gaunt phoenix
how curious
agile orchid
So gm was compensated to still be 10% added bf damage, which goes nicely with 10...
is this real?
limpid onyx
Might be made up
gaunt phoenix
It's not that grand melee was changed yesterday. The formula is possibly different than we thought
limpid onyx
Could the formula not just be whatever +10 %
mighty pivot
It's not that grand melee was changed yesterday. The formula is possibly differe...
a (dumb) way that this could be happening is that they calculate how much of a % increase it needs to add 10% to the base value. But why would they do that?
gaunt phoenix
I will have to ask koji if there is some sort of precedence of this behavior in simc
mighty pivot
Could the formula not just be whatever +10 %
if it was 10% additive you'd be getting lower cleave with PC
iirc if it was additive live cleave would be x1.125 instead of x1.2 (on 2T)
grim spear
sure bis
normal forge
what about this 2 piece set?
red zinc
what about this 2 piece set?
What about it
quaint sable
Thats an int weapon sir
frank finch
int dagger
red zinc
Its intellect
quaint sable
int dagger
Sword*
normal forge
int weapon indeed, sorry
balmy topaz
int weapon indeed, sorry
There aren’t any interesting weapons
Last boss has a vers haste wep
normal forge
With these on, cloak did about 2.5-3% overall in key
nice
grim spear
vapid blaze
is it even 10% tho
its 116/106 no 😛
trim harbor
does ho always sim higher than kir or am i just lost
mighty pivot
is it even 10% tho
its 116/106 no 😛
yes it's +9,43% relative to previous tuning
quaint sable
does ho always sim higher than kir or am i just lost
On st HO wins. In Dslice KiR with 1 ptn in FTH (Fan the Hammer) and PC (Precise Cuts) might win in sims.
old python
10% ST buff means viability in prog raid right? Riiiight? 
fossil trail
I am trying to plan out my Rogue. I am having a hard time choosing if I should craft 2 weapons and work to get those max and buy trinkets with my chips or buy 2 weapons and just craft something else. I will not be doing any mythic raiding, mythic 12s are obtainable but are going to take time to get geared enough to do them. Thoughts?
remote pecan
I am trying to plan out my Rogue. I am having a hard time choosing if I should c...
I would suggest crafting a MH & using chips for HC Capo's & magnet
finite arch
I am trying to plan out my Rogue. I am having a hard time choosing if I should c...
Craft main hand, mug zee fist, jastor diamond, magnet ezpz
strong saffron
10% ST buff means viability in prog raid right? Riiiight? <a:HyperCopege:1132278...
ye man dam amps and flying very good for outlaw
remote pecan
no issue if you just dont press KiR or AR before downtime 
strong saffron
no issue if you just dont press KiR or AR before downtime <:Cheesin:100409433345...
inb4 flying every 1 min
tindral flying as OL very fun
remote pecan
then you pray for good rolls or play FB and hope the cd reduction is enough 
strong saffron
then you pray for good rolls or play FB and hope the cd reduction is enough <:ke...
nah you just play sub
eta gg
old python
strong saffron
10m opener vs 71m 💔
daring oxide
__**Outlaw Changes:**__
These changes are an 8% single target buff, and a 1-5% A...
i need specific numbers pls ❤️
daring oxide
It's not that grand melee was changed yesterday. The formula is possibly differe...
solo i need the numbers breakdown pls i cant no maths
gaunt phoenix
it seems grand melee is not 1.2x but rather 1.0 + (0.1 / 0.45)
0.45 being whatever blade flurry's current base value is
So grand melee is really 1.2222x at this time
strong saffron
So grand melee is really 1.2222x at this time
so is it a net buff to AOE only with GM?
daring oxide
factoring in BF going from 50 to 45%
languid coral
@vivid vessel is this liquid or northern sky
https://wago.io/U1EFd_3OR
languid coral
Yeah I'm assuming he just customized one of there's
languid coral
🙂
languid coral
Or he can just say yes or no
vivid vessel
am i allowed to do that
is liquid open rn
i forgot
ye it is
i think
im allowed
languid coral
Just asking I joined anew guild and they want me to use northern sky but your shit looks nice
Shame
vivid vessel
i mean my raid weak auras are kinda whatever tho
i just modify quite a bit the liquid weak aura every tier usually
gaunt phoenix
leaking secret wa's
daring oxide
NS is fine, they changed it up though
sharp moat
guys what is exactly the killing spree (current live) bug? i've heard about itand that it can cause deads but im not sure whats about
vivid vessel
i mostly have it on wagio for storage for myself
vivid vessel
ye my dungeon pack usually get more work
daring oxide
guys what is exactly the killing spree (current live) bug? i've heard about itan...
stagger doesn't work
languid coral
Update the mage weak aura 😂
vivid vessel
it seems grand melee is not 1.2x but rather 1.0 + (0.1 / 0.45)
0.45 being whate...
oohhh
sharp moat
stagger doesn't work
is it exactly when the KS ends that its not staggered?
gaunt phoenix
guys what is exactly the killing spree (current live) bug? i've heard about itan...
so killing spree teleports you around right
at the final tick of killing spree you seem to do an invisible teleport
so you dont move but the server thinks you moved
it's like a split second where you can seemingly get hit by aoe stuff you are not visibly inside
sharp moat
ok thanks
daring oxide
so things like flarendo aoe one shots u
languid coral
Like I use your ui and have some ugly ass weak auras replacing where yours normally goes for other classes I'm not to good with weak auras and shit but yeah I think everyone should shadow the shit like you
Looks so clean
vivid vessel
some people tell me they hate that part
gaunt phoenix
French people sauce
shy flume
@vivid vessel was watching your 21 rookery run on last boss your team is missplaying the boss or am i trippin ?
vivid vessel
<@352916297262301194> was watching your 21 rookery run on last boss your team i...
wdym
shy flume
Ohh not 1:30
shy flume
Yeye thats ok now
languid coral
I did the sub swap one time it was fun
daring oxide
21 rookery wtf
vivid vessel
if you ahve time you either 4 phase or 3 phase with 2 min between each
4phase is slower techincally
shy flume
War and subtlety 1:30 min ce
vivid vessel
so we do this
shy flume
Cd
vivid vessel
its mega cringe tho ye
shy flume
I know
vivid vessel
this boss is terrible
shy flume
You need to leap last sec to not lose uptime
shy flume
What if u stay outlul
vivid vessel
6 phase prolly
vivid vessel
ye that doesnt work
shy flume
Like not lining up
shy flume
Ye wont work on 21
vivid vessel
spec is garbage
shy flume
Btw when you change to sub
You can just put symbols
On to proc
Extra 2 charge
While flying back to dungeon
I mean its minor but ye
That boss sucks
vivid vessel
doing 2 min per phase
we killed boss in 5min57
outlaw in 20 we did 6min +
anyway
outlaw bad
shy flume
It worth waiting for 2min to make sure
But on 21
Last set of cds
Were overkill
Than how does 21 counted as outlaw score
If u finish dungeon as sun
Sub
vivid vessel
it counted as sub
shy flume
Ohh so u never done 21 rook as outlaw
vivid vessel
nope
only 20
if we ever go back to rookery 21 for whtever reason idk why we would od that
maybe i try
but its last boss
gonna feel shit depleting on last boss
wasting infinite time
we are prolly never going back to rookery tho
we are playing again the last 2 weeks or so
and i think we wanna do 22s instead
vivid vessel
ye but no
i think we can legit
take r1
discretely
by timing 22s
other teams arent even trying 22s for some reason
but we have some 22s that we know we can time
shy flume
Cinder doable
vivid vessel
if we manage to do that we take r1 for fun
easy
while they afk grind 21 resi all day
kekw
did you see sjele team
they were in priory for like
3 weeks bro
to get r1 timer
idk how they didnt implode
vivid vessel
we will try to get back r1 priory
just cause
it would be funny
and priory isnt as hard for us
as it is for them
vivid vessel
ye
vivid vessel
idk i think its a big deal
gaunt phoenix
that it can turn out to be true
vivid vessel
you are going from one tier to another cleaving for 10% less
if we end up doing more st and it work out
sure lets go
but if it doesnt end up that way we can just get fucked over
shy flume
I also think some dungeons physical comp just better for timing 22s
vivid vessel
idk 10% is a big number i think
vivid vessel
I also think some dungeons physical comp just better for timing 22s
cinder 22
shy flume
Just because of tankiness
vivid vessel
ye
i agree
we know we can do cinder 22 timer wise
we know we can do 22 ws
and top is possible but tight af
fresh orchid
what about ML?
vivid vessel
ye ML of course
shy flume
22 ws first pull u need to get lucky
vivid vessel
but im not even counting that
shy flume
With outlaw
vapid blaze
i dont see us pumping enough on st (and prio) to actually balance the aoe nerf
shy flume
Do u macro ghostly strike with anything zac
I was thinking 2x fth instead of ghostly
Is it bar ?
Bad
shy flume
Ive macro it into bte and sometimes when i ramp i hit ghostly to wrong mob so its bad need to have sep keybind for sure
Tried some ho aswell on 20s but garbage only good if u have the nuts
languid coral
Any good macros to run tho like idk ar vanish bte. I feel myself pressing them alot together
Only macros I have is focus stuff
shy flume
Stelath macro is must four subterfuge
Because u cannot spam it
If u dont have the macro
languid coral
Oh you mean !stealth
shy flume
Yes
shy flume
Its even worse for sun
Sub
Because u need cancelaura dance
Apperently cannot get into stleath during dance becoz it counted as stealth
I remember at somepoint outlaw had dance too
mighty pivot
Its even worse for sun
violet fable
So, is the general consensus that the ST buffs to outlaw were enough to push them up for raid without hurting them too much in M+?
violet fable
I feel like even for raid tho they were a bit behind 10% :/
vapid blaze
idk is it a buff
you think you gonna do 10% more st compared to now to compensate?
tender wedge
Read the top pin. Someone else did the math earlier
Is it enough? Can’t say. But it is a buff
gaunt phoenix
~8% single target buff, ~1-5% aoe buff depends on targets
violet fable
noted so the buff to ST was enough to still be considered a buff to AOE. Hype!
agile orchid
~8% single target buff, ~1-5% aoe buff depends on targets
so why are people worried?
violet fable
hard to see PTR play testing because most outlaws on PTR are... rough
vapid blaze
so why are people worried?
cause its relative to now
if you do same st as you do on live
your aoe just got nerfed
vapid blaze
well apparantly outlaw st wasnt so hot on ptr
so IF you end up (after the 10%) doing same damage as on live (compared to other specs) you will do less aoe
vapid blaze
cause blade flurry now does less aoe?
like i dont think outlaw is doing too much aoe on live either
think its a very werid tuning knob to nerf aoe and buff st
cause you just gonna have to overperform on st
agile orchid
so IF you end up (after the 10%) doing same damage as on live
why would you do the same damage as on live after getting a 10% buff?
or do you mean aoe damage?
shy meteor
Maybe I mean it is certainly strong
vivid vessel
> so IF you end up (after the 10%) doing same damage as on live
why would you do...
its a st buff to bring you in line to normal st numbers
vapid blaze
i dont think it needs nerfs
except 2 target maybe
vivid vessel
he means aoe
vapid blaze
yeah if you end up doing the same damage compared to other specs on ptr (in st)
you now do less aoe damage compared to those specs
agile orchid
outlaw aoe was pretty solid before the ST buff, wasn't it
vivid vessel
on ptr ?
agile orchid
yes?
vivid vessel
idk not really
vapid blaze
idk i think outlaw is turbo flawed on ptr
agile orchid
it's op for pugs
vapid blaze
like honestly i think if smth about outlaw aoe should get nerfed its PC, so its not turbo broken on 2t
fallen totem
Did anyone try outlaw after tuning? Did we really got nerf
vapid blaze
im not saying its a nerf either btw
you do more damage on ptr vs before patch (at any target count)
its just a weird tuning knob
agile orchid
like honestly i think if smth about outlaw aoe should get nerfed its PC, so its ...
personally I would have preferred a nimble flurry nerf so fatebound was not as far behind as it is now
vapid blaze
nah just rework fatebound
agile orchid
a bit late now
vapid blaze
also that just nerfs the aoe
if outlaw stays the way it is
0 damage cooldowns, hardcapped, no raidbuffs etc
it needs to keep its power otherwise wtf is the point
vapid blaze
yeah but its just the worse damage profile
finite arch
like honestly i think if smth about outlaw aoe should get nerfed its PC, so its ...
Why cant we have nice things
Why does our aoe get nerfed when boomfuckchicken does giga dps
gaunt phoenix
our aoe got buffed !
the only thought it trying to compare live to ptr
instead of ptr to ptr
which is idk
slippery slope
finite arch
Is there a damage fall off for bf cleave from ks?
vapid blaze
yeah mb should have been more specific
gaunt phoenix
KS bf damage is normal
violet fable
speaking of KS did the damage it do change? not numbers wise... I saw someone talk about that it didn't just "damage in this area" like it was before. Its now like each shot gun blast is a single target hit, so in AOE you're just hitting random people and not good??? I couldn't find anything that says that tho.
agile orchid
KS is still cleaving
finite arch
Do the sin boys ever complain about their spec?
agile orchid
the issue is that it's targeting random targets
so random targets get 100% damage and cleaving
frank finch
not even close to live
This is sus to me , what’s ur best overall on ptr in floodgate it’s the only dungeon you can really compare
agile orchid
yeah I corrected myself
vivid vessel
how is it sus
finite arch
They should make the new KS a cone like how evokers have it
agile orchid
is the new KS without the 10% buff still a buff or is it a nerf?
agile orchid
I don't care about visuals
finite arch
Buff that we dont die
agile orchid
I am asking numbers
finite arch
I thought cancelling it was a dps increase
frank finch
how is it sus
Do you agree or disagree that the tc routes and pulls on live contribute quite a bit to overall
agile orchid
if I run 2 sims, one with current KS and the 2nd with new KS, which one would do more dps?
sudden fulcrum
i think that question proves you don't understand the changes
agile orchid
I understand the change, I am asking numerically
is the new KS without the 10% buff a nerf or not
finite arch
It shouldnt changw im sure the targetting is still the same
agile orchid
vapid blaze
it should change
ks cd and damage got changed
agile orchid
bro
finite arch
Hes asking before the buff
vivid vessel
Do you agree or disagree that the tc routes and pulls on live contribute quite a...
im talking purely about aoe, its noticeable
agile orchid
if the patch happened 2 days ago
would my 684 ilvl outlaw do more damage or less compared to 11.1
frank finch
Idk I’ve seen pulls where law is doing like 18m dps
finite arch
Since you get better positioning
frank finch
On ptr
frank finch
How is that not close
finite arch
you have 30 ilvl more on ptr
Whats your prediction for bis trinkets in s3 based on testing
vapid blaze
I think its exactly the same
why is it the same tho
there were legit changes
finite arch
why is it the same tho
there were legit changes
Hes asking a pure hypothetical question
frank finch
Maybe hoc is hard carrying?
finite arch
I did correct myself later
vapid blaze
yeah but its still not the same xD
outlaw profile on ptr is even worse than on live 🙂
agile orchid
whatever there is no point in worrying
I'm gonna play it on release and hope it's good enough
finite arch
The dmg buff should make it feel dope tbh
Actually what is the problem with outlaw in ptr?
fresh orchid
There are still weeks of tunings anyways
finite arch
I swear everyone says different things
frank finch
There’s also no twilight dev on ptr
vapid blaze
Actually what is the problem with outlaw in ptr?
ks hits random targets instead of just the main one
finite arch
ks hits random targets instead of just the main one
Its always been like that
vapid blaze
on live it hits primary target no
finite arch
Nope
vapid blaze
"Finishing move that teleports to an enemy within 10 yds, striking with both weapons for Physical damage. Number of strikes increased per combo point."
finite arch
Im like 80% sure it doesnt
unkempt dew
Are we META yet?
finite arch
"Finishing move that teleports to an enemy within 10 yds, striking with both wea...
But you strike like 10 times
It def jumps
vapid blaze
"Finishing move that unleashes a barrage of gunfire, striking random enemies within 8 yards for Physical damage. Number of strikes increased per combo point."
frank finch
I also don’t think I have seen you run in a full physical buff comp
vapid blaze
im 99% sure it only strikes your main target
since you only teleport around that one
unkempt dew
They should remove the target cap on killing spree
Just go BLAM BLAM
You get a bullet and you get a bullet
torpid mauve
PLaying with a dagger in off hand, still a good thing?
sudden fulcrum
!oh
ornate heathBOT
A dagger offhand is technically like 0.2% better than a slow weapon because it generates more 
Instant Poison procs. That is the only difference, 
Fatal Flourish proc rate is normalized to be unaffected by the change in attack speed. Note that item level or stats will matter more than this quirk, or you can simply use a slow weapon anyway for transmog.
finite arch
PLaying with a dagger in off hand, still a good thing?
Nah
wind rock
!wa
ornate heathBOT
Class packs:
Guy's - Afenar's Edit 
Luxthos Edit
Zac's Group 
Devlin
Utilities:
Combo Point Standalone
Last GCD in Crackshot window / Subterfuge timer
Ace refund sound trigger
RtB buffs tracker (shows normal, CTO, and KIR'd buffs)
Unseen Blade tracker
Fun:
Ace max combo counter and Ace current combo counter
KS Ticking damage taken
mighty pivot
@finite arch live KS hits only 1 target (but flurries too) it just teleports around the main target
mighty pivot
it's to look 
mighty pivot
yeah but at least you won't die looking
vivid vessel
Maybe hoc is hard carrying?
cant tell if you are trolling with this one
indigo token
hoc tuah?
finite arch
yeah but at least you won't die looking <:WICKED:824558139172192306>
I ate the fatest death on braunpyke
But i looked cool
oblique snow
Hello, My name is Phil and I play Brewmaster. I'm doing this thing where I go to class discord to try to meet people because pugging is awful.
If you are 3k-3200 io and want to build a team for next season please message me. I typically play 8-12 MST.
finite arch
I pressed KS and got hit by like 5 secs of the spinning hammer
He didnt post this in the sub or sin channel
We have a legend
oblique snow
Screw those magic dealing losers. I want killing spree
quaint mauve
my internet has been shit for the past 3 days and
this spec is unplayable with lag
:(
oblique snow
That's why I tank now. I bought a 700k house and realized it didn't have hard-line internet and now I play 80 ping with star link
Gimme those 12 ping outlaw gods 🙂
quaint mauve
Gimme those 12 ping outlaw gods 🙂
usually i run 20 but it’s just been spiking recently idk why
oblique snow
Yeah, I used to main a rogue for a long time. Can't do it now. I want to find a rogue and then build the rest of my team 🙂
mighty pivot
imagine playing with double digit ping 
oblique snow
I blame Elon
finite arch
Yeah, I used to main a rogue for a long time. Can't do it now. I want to find a ...
I dont make the cut sadly im 2997
oblique snow
@finite arch if you're being serious and can play MST I'll help you. I care more about the player than the rating it's just a good starting point
quaint mauve
imagine playing with double digit ping <:CE_DISGUTANG:1054587815716995183>
do u live in blizz HQ
oblique snow
Jokes on you @mighty pivot is actually pirate software
K my invasive is done have a great day everyone
mighty pivot
do u live in blizz HQ
not NA, but 3ms
civic zephyr
Zac outdpsing fdks rn on stream not sure if skill diff or outlaw is actualy competitive now to the s+
dark steeple
if he plays with random its most likely skill diff
fading nymph
also worst frost dungeon
civic zephyr
Ara kara and dawn?
fading nymph
dawn
finite arch
I need to chexk the timezone first thoufh
Im on gmt
So the timing may be hard on weekdays
obsidian walrus
sudden fulcrum
That's why I tank now. I bought a 700k house and realized it didn't have hard-li...
yo i think you got ripped off
700k and no internet
oblique snow
Come to Montana bro
jolly geyser
give me 700k
copper owl
Returning player. Quick question. When I look at top parses and most guides it looks like twilight devastation is the best/ most popular head enchant, but it sims worse for me than echoing void. gushing wounds is even worse. I'm assuming I should trust the sim, but just curious what would potentially make echoing void sim better than the others
gaunt phoenix
echoing void is actually bugged and not simming correctly
lone spear
Returning player. Quick question. When I look at top parses and most guides it l...
its bugged in sims iirc
copper owl
ohh makes sense
gaunt phoenix
some sort of complicated issue where its observed proc rate defies its parsed spell data
hybrid crown
The proc rate is like half of what it appears to have in sims
I run gushing for ST and because I don't have to watch twilight beams missing my target
rapid grail
my internet has been shit for the past 3 days and
where are you from
hybrid crown
But twilight does big dam
keen belfry
I also don’t think I have seen you run in a full physical buff comp
I think the point is that your dps shouldn’t even be comparable going up 30 ilvls cuh. I’m sure we do more aoe on PTR, but it doesn’t feel like we do 30 ilvls more of dps
quaint mauve
where are you from
california
rapid grail
california
ah kk
violet fable
What ilvl gear are you given on PTR?
fair oak
vapid blaze
you get scaled in instances
think 704 in keys?
gaunt phoenix
710
jolly geyser
is that your cats?
fair oak
No I just collect cats
jolly geyser
solid
gaunt phoenix
fair oak
I play a spec and join its discord and instead of talking about the spec I end up just sending cats
gaunt phoenix
hecking love cats
fair oak
Me too man
neat mist
mighty pivot
copper owl
The proc rate is like half of what it appears to have in sims
Is something similar going on with weapon enchants? Sim tell me to use Depths on both weapons, but I'm seeing a lot of the top parsers with radiant power either on both weapons or on the offhand
mighty pivot
for ST or dslice?
if it's just for ST then many people just use radiant power because they are close but it's also good for dungeons
copper owl
Ahh I see
white lantern
hi guys got a question: Bladerush sims less dps against playing without it. If we get into some high keys there are some big pulls and as Outlaw we are sadly target capped. But Blade Rush is the skill with no target cap. Makes it sense to play that skill in M+ ? or performs it so bad ?
mighty pivot
it was simmed worse even at 20 targets or something
mighty pivot
way undertuned
gaunt phoenix
doesnt relate to combo points or procs
keen belfry
what competes with blade rush
white lantern
so sad
keen belfry
if you guys had to guess, does blizzard know blade rush does 0 dmg?
i would say they do
gaunt phoenix
they know when a talent has 0% pick rate
white lantern
well they focused on new animation for KS so i dont think so
copper owl
what competes with blade rush
Nothing directly, you'd just have to drop a talent somewhere else ot pick it up
mighty pivot
what competes with blade rush
ace or deft probably, dunno if anything else can be dropped
it's in a very shitty spot
keen belfry
so many duality of man answers today
mighty pivot
or GS
keen belfry
they know when a talent has 0% pick rate
i wonder if they care? if they dont, why not? if they do, why no changes to it?
i bet its more complex thatn i think
mighty pivot
it's a nice coincidence so many energy producing/discounting talents are dogshit. BR, Master of Shadows, Goremaw
gaunt phoenix
it's probably something to be looked at for future xpacs or whenever they decide to delegate time to talent tree work for outlaw
normal forge
so, we are loosing 5 buffs from set from s2 , right?
Are they packing that 5 buff thing somehow in any of our talents?
Man, loosing this is so lame
mighty pivot
sleight of hand helps you with 5 buff but is worse than loaded dice
gaunt phoenix
we go back to loaded dice, and raw 5 buffs are back to being a novelty
mighty pivot
base 5 buff chance is 2% btw
reef forge
ho will forever be stuck with 2 buffs and you will like it
wind rock
I think I’m in love with outlaw
keen belfry
HO buff uptime 
reef forge
try not to sleep challenge
keen belfry
GM uptime? more like GN its time to go to bed!
shy meteor
Except for dmg, how does Outlaw feel on ptr? Has any1 here played it?
normal forge
i think i wanna stay HO+trickster with KS
vapid blaze
try not to sleep challenge
enough time mid ks to sleep
keen belfry
Except for dmg, how does Outlaw feel on ptr? Has any1 here played it?
my few keys it felt similiar, only diff is new KS is quite cringe to press
double coup is fun
tier set is weird how it functions
waiting, albeit a short duration, to see if you UB proc'd twice on a spec like outlaw feels weird idk'
gaunt phoenix
Unseen blade has always had a 250ms delay or something
but now it can proc twice for 500ms delay
total
- ptr lag
keen belfry
id guess its a LITTLE better on live
reef forge
lets just pray
keen belfry
just fix ks duration and i can be fine with being bothered by UB delay
reef forge
is it not shorter than live with you cancelling it at 7cp?
shy meteor
waiting, albeit a short duration, to see if you UB proc'd twice on a spec like o...
Mhnn the biggest reason to play Outlaw, for me, is the gameplay its so smooth and clean rn and I am afraid next Seasons, its not
And I dont wanna play assa
wind rock
Mhnn the biggest reason to play Outlaw, for me, is the gameplay its so smooth an...
What’s changing next season?
shy meteor
Tier Set for example is a big factor
KS is a channel
keen belfry
Mhnn the biggest reason to play Outlaw, for me, is the gameplay its so smooth an...
KS is quite gross but im still going to welcome the change, ive died/inted too many times this season that really any change to ks to make it not kill u is still great
the tier is weird tho
i do agree
but more UBs are fun
@gaunt phoenix do you know how many more coups we get with gain from tier but loss from KS cd? im guessing its still a pretty significant gain of UBs overall
shy meteor
KS is quite gross but im still going to welcome the change, ive died/inted too m...
I feel that
Pressing KS gives me ptsd
Ty anyway for the response @keen belfry I'll wait
shy meteor
Maybe Blizzard does Something 
keen belfry
i could play current outlaw with a KS fix for my whole life i think
shy meteor
That would be big
keen belfry
and i think fatebound in raid will be chill
white lantern
an outlaw with no targect cap would be thick
i heared in BfA he wasnt capped ?
i started with SL
shy meteor
It would be op
wintry solar
Yeah
keen belfry
we have learned this tier that uncapping outlaw isnt necessary
the blade furry fixes were all we needed
wintry solar
Crazy
shy meteor
If current outlaw is uncapped...oh boy this would certainly need a big nerf
white lantern
i wished i started to play at BfA just to see that
wintry solar
i wished i started to play at BfA just to see that
Outlaw in general was really fun
Outlaws never been not fun tbh
Every iteration has been good
Most specs can't say that
shy meteor
I mean If u look at Zac or at raider.io, he is gapping unholy dks rn in overall, even in "big pull Dungeons"
I mean I know they Play the physical comp but still
wintry solar
And buff him by 15%
shy meteor
It is the proof that the Spec has the abillity
shy meteor
And buff him by 15%
Thats the physical comp yes
wintry solar
Just keep that in mind when talking about outlaw itself is all
shy meteor
I mean the "standart" comp IS also buffing theirselves with vdh, Druid etc
keen belfry
yeah outlaw loads into a key doing 15% ish more dmg from raid buffs, meta comp gains what, like half that?
shy meteor
I Just wanted to say that current outlaw is pretty good and has the abillity to compete with the "Meta Specs"
keen belfry
yes
i say this all the time but idc about being overtuned
just make sure the spec is in a spot where i dont lose to randos in lfg
shy meteor
No no I meant If current outlaw would be uncapped, it would have been op
wintry solar
Yeah there's no denying that
shy meteor
Then Idk im dumb or misread something
gaunt phoenix
<@921608341048930304> do you know how many more coups we get with gain from tie...
total unseen blade ends up being pretty similar
gaunt phoenix
A little under 2x it seems
keen belfry
how so?
keen belfry
total unseen blade ends up being pretty similar
does this count munched UBs too?
gaunt phoenix
just ub damage hits
You do munch more
live- 67.6 procs, among those 1.5 munched
ptr- 69.6 procs, among those 8.5 munched
In kir 1fth slice
ionic niche
Hello gamers i got some questions for the raid because it's been a long time since I played rogue...On what occasion do you use Stix's Magnet trinket in raids? Only when it reaches 30 stacks or or earlier in certain situations?
gaunt phoenix
It's the same dps either way
1 time at 30 stacks is the same as 6 times at 5 stacks
drifting lance
how good is the dps looking in ptr?
ionic niche
1 time at 30 stacks is the same as 6 times at 5 stacks
Alright, thanks. So I can use it at 10 stacks or even at 5, it won’t make a difference, and for Roll the Bones, do you keep rolling until you get all 5 buffs, or are there specific rules now?
gaunt phoenix
It depends on your build
the HO build spams rtb unless you have 4 or more buffs active
The KIR build is a whole thing
that is hard to explain with brevity
you are essentially watching a weakaura to see how many buffs will not be rerolled by the next rtb
and you roll if you will lose between 0-2 buffs
with some optimizations
it will be easier next tier
when we get loaded dice back
ionic niche
Yeah, I use the KIR build on Vexie, for example
glass mortar
live- 67.6 procs, among those 1.5 munched
ptr- 69.6 procs, among those 8.5 munch...
So we lost an average of two coup procs (disregarding 4set) just to inieffiency
tribal surge
It's me or even with the good new tier, the fact that it's really hard again to get KiR used in a dungeon feels so bad rn
gaunt phoenix
So we lost an average of two coup procs (disregarding 4set) just to inieffiency
yeah around 2-3 lost
sudden fulcrum
unseen more like unused blades
gaunt phoenix
over slice duration
glass mortar
unseen more like unused blades
gaunt phoenix
It's me or even with the good new tier, the fact that it's really hard again to ...
are you use loaded dice and opening with AR + RTB?
like you guarantee 2 buffs
compared to live tier you arent guaranteed anything
you gotta pray 2 or 5
tribal surge
Yea, i wasnt using it with the last tier but in the ptr i was using it
gaunt phoenix
i think iir usage should be similar
kir
live
Ptr
number of casts & average interval between casts
tribal surge
I was speaking about the direct 5 rolls using RTB
violet fable
when we get loaded dice back
we lost it?
daring oxide
daring oxide
was feeling nostalgic today
i think im gonna miss these moments
giving everyone a fright
flarendo disco beams
my favourite
make everyone at monkey panik
mighty pivot
nothing stops you from still doing it with sprint and hook
vivid vessel
@gaunt phoenix
gaunt phoenix
?!?!
vivid vessel
i think outlaw is back
gaunt phoenix
we're so barack
normal violet
obama
neat tapir
Don't do this to me guys, my heart keeps telling me to go outlaw next season because my friend is going brew
normal violet
just go outlaw
neat tapir
Yah but doing tank aoe DMG in mass aoe is such a turn off
normal violet
it equalizes overall anyways who cares
hot olive
Obomboclat
zealous plinth
i think outlaw is back
You tested on ptr yet?
vivid vessel
a bit
hot olive
hes streaming:)
hybrid granite
gaunt phoenix
buffs good !
hot olive
also nerf to other classes good
late swallow
it's funny how we were memeing on outlaw getting a channeled spell
we'll unironically get an empowered spell at this point too
normal forge
the HO build spams rtb unless you have 4 or more buffs active
i like spamming rtb, feels the right thing with empowered combo points
gaunt phoenix
i like rolling
unborn basin
I wonder if later on they’ll let us choose between the channeled or teleporting version of ks.. 🤷🏻♂️
glass mortar
if that was on the table they probably would have left old ks in somehow
this is an entirely new spell
mighty pivot
I also want them to let us choose colours, and pizza toppings
wary bridge
gaunt phoenix
i like that you can have 40% vers and its still the same as crit
grave carbon
Im thinking we might be back
glass mortar
give zac time
hes gotta feel out all the doom angles
surely he can find a new angle to doom from
split ingot
__**Outlaw Changes:**__
These changes are an 8% single target buff, and a 1-5% A...
isnt the blade flurry change a nerf?
gaunt phoenix
Nope
glass mortar
yes but it still works out to a net buff
gaunt phoenix
well yea
glass mortar
at all target counts
split ingot
yes but it still works out to a net buff
because of the +10% dmg i suppose?
glass mortar
ye
split ingot
i see
gaunt phoenix
like on 2 target
live-
500 damage to main target, 500 * 1.5 damage to 2nd target = 1250
ptr-
550 damage to main target, 550 * 1.45 damage to 2nd target = 1347
that's a 7.76% gain on 2 target
at 8 target it's more like 1%
but yeah still an aoe net gain
bright crane
Frost seems a little overtuned now no?
cinder relic
Frost dk is very overtuned yeah
keen belfry
like on 2 target
live-
500 damage to main target, 500 * 1.5 damage to 2nd targe...
true low target cleave kings
slate forge
@gaunt phoenix how does cudgel sim vs HC and mythic offhand in 8 target on ptr?
gaunt phoenix
i'm not sure
normal violet
Is there a way to zoom out further than what we normally can do?
I don't know if it's just me, but when I do first pull of workshop, I swear there are so many adds that the nameplates, although they're stacking, they still end up stacking over each other and I can't click on them because for some reason the health bars of the noncasters go directly over the bomb casters, but I know they're casting because WAs are telling me they're casting
Or is there even a way to make it so that the casters go directly to the bottom of the stacking nameplates?
cinder relic
or do they just like damage
The initial change they fucking hated but then they reverted it
bright crane
No clue I don’t play fdk but I’m sure our reptilian brains love big details numbers
cinder relic
They turned it into an empowered spell or smthing
balmy topaz
gaunt phoenix
i see
burnt tangle
Do fdks like their changes
I think not having to stand in DnD to cleave is a massive positive
(if thats what the changes do, I wanna play some frost 
)
slate forge
I also like dedicated aoe buttons not every class has to cleave like outlaw
keen belfry
<:starechamp:1005585370508964000>
i think thats enough market research
get ur coat goat
white lantern
guys i´m reading in Icy Veins that HO is the way to go for M+ with trickster. If i am watching in Raider.io the guys like Zac are playin KiR & Fatebound. does it so much more DPS if its well played ? i read that its more difficult to play but is it worth if you can play it ?
gaunt phoenix
it's not fatebound, it is KIR trickster
KIR is better, but it is harder
it is worth playing also next tier you will play it
you need 19% haste tho
violet fable
Last I checked it was only a few % over HO tho no?
gaunt phoenix
this is correct
glass mortar
depends what ur simmin
violet fable
So if your dps drops due to skill then 100% HO is better
glass mortar
on live u can pretty much play the one u prefer
worth practicing kir for next season tho
violet fable
Going purely off % best isn't always right if you are playing like a sim
normal violet
HO is also just user friendly and more focus on ST whereas KIR is favored in aoe with higher target count, but from what I know it also relies on chain pulling a lot more since if you KIR, you really want to maximize how long you have those buffs for so if you KIR 5 buff and pack dies, you want to go next pack asap and I think HO in this scenario is way less punishing
balmy topaz
i think thats enough market research
Naa gotta go for that hoverboard mount 
violet fable
HO is also just user friendly and more focus on ST whereas KIR is favored in aoe...
Agreed
violet fable
worth practicing kir for next season tho
Is the difference between the two going to change much next season?
gaunt phoenix
the current HO build really likes the current tier set
without it, it falls off a bit
normal violet
I genuinely think KIR is good, but harder in pugs unless your tank knows how to chain pull
idk though, maybe this is wrong
gaunt phoenix
i think they should tune the HO build
wintry solar
i like spamming rtb, feels the right thing with empowered combo points
keep on rollin rollin rollin rolllin
also enjoy it while you can
glass mortar
I genuinely think KIR is good, but harder in pugs unless your tank knows how to ...
they r both good
slate forge
Feel like ambush and FTH could use a buff
glass mortar
kir edges out especially on the higher end since it scales better to high targets
but on ptr kir is gapping ho again so
fine time to start practicing
white lantern
i doesnt find any trickster KIR build in Icy Veins. Would you play the fatebound KIR build and just swap the hero talents ?
i would like to test it
gaunt phoenix
white lantern
for m+
gaunt phoenix
specifically this 1 FTH KIR is the popular version
but it is legit hard to play
it will feel like shit until you get it
gaunt phoenix
the builder priority is constantly shifting based on broadside/cps/unseen blades being ready
red zinc
got me trying to undoom you till 1am just for you to say we’re back
gaunt phoenix
it's just not going to make sense if you dont know outlaw
red zinc
quaint mauve
i might be playing sub in raid….
gaunt phoenix
no !
white lantern
look in my faq https://discord.com/channels/124169701881282560/12763068601269003...
ty i will give it a try
keen belfry
i kinda wnnwa track flawlfess form stacks again
i think seeing >20 stacks for a cs window would be fun and vibes
stray star
We'll probably have 3 more tunings before the patch, right?
glass mortar
i mean u cant effect its stacks rlly in anyway
gaunt phoenix
naw i think were done
glass mortar
but u can track it if u wanna 4fun ig
i think we may see 1 or 2 final tuning passes but most of the bulk tuning is probably done
they hit everyone with the 10%+ tuning packages yesterday
thats a big steppy
keen belfry
we are getting 20% buff next week
vivid vessel
got me trying to undoom you till 1am just for you to say we’re back
no !
i wasnt dooming bro
nerfing aoe is just a bad precedent
we prolly are fucked at some point soon
wintry solar
he was just giving constructive criticism
craggy barn
they wil see our op damage week 1 in heroic and nerf outlaw again
cinder relic
i wasnt dooming bro
Now we're lying
quaint mauve
it’s pretty over
wintry solar
rogue rework when?
balmy topaz
Now we're lying
You and zac were on such a good streak of agreeing with each other as well 
cinder relic
rogue rework when?
What needs a rework?
craggy barn
the whole class into dust
craggy barn
the only solution is deletion
glass mortar
possibly the most over its ever been
cinder relic
What
glass mortar
not dying to kspree is something to be excited about
wintry solar
thats big
sudden fulcrum
if you really feel that way why not play something else
wintry solar
because every other spec sucks
craggy barn
why does rogue need something to be giga excited about
cinder relic
New ks is exciting
sudden fulcrum
then don't play WoW
go play hello kitty island adventure
and stop bringing down the vibes here
wintry solar
its been the same thing for too long imo
normal forge
is this 701 the highest ilvl ffor DISC belt?
glass mortar
ye
hot olive
What needs a rework?
fatebound?
wintry solar
new tier fixes a lot of fbs problems tbh
craggy barn
fb the only thing that needs some rework now bc its so ass for both outlaw and sin for various reasons
wintry solar
it feels that way at least
wintry solar
and stop bringing down the vibes here
how about you make me
hot olive
we still play it in full ST raid?
sudden fulcrum
how about you make me
i am trying but it looks like blocking will be more effective
glass mortar
yes
wintry solar
i am trying but it looks like blocking will be more effective
bye
craggy barn
an entire hero talent tree thats only viable in PURE ST is cringe
cinder relic
Isn't it kinda common for a st hero talent and an aoe hero talent lol
craggy barn
did i stutter
craggy barn
maybe ill feel different this season witht eh KS change
Bc fb only viable in s2 bc u dont troll the team was cringe af
cinder relic
i have no clue tbh none of the specs i play r like that
Arms and fury is like that
Sub was like that last tier
glass mortar
hmm
craggy barn
are those as cringe as tails damage split
glass mortar
not to be a downer but all 3 of the specs u just named have been pretty mid to bad in dungeons most of the expac no?
cinder relic
Idk what Ur asking
glass mortar
im sure there must be some good specs that also do that tho
cinder relic
I listed 3 specs
glass mortar
ye
cinder relic
If you want I can check every spec in the entire game if you want
glass mortar
i only play WW/brm a little dev and rogue rn
so none of my specs do that
i truly have no clue
craggy barn
dark ranger hunter is ST but is playable in aoe
cinder relic
Fatebound is also playable in aoe its just worse than trickster
glass mortar
i mean yea i guess it depends on how u define playable
fatebound is like 10% behind in aoe
its alot
but law is tuned so high u could for sure still play it and compete
cinder relic
Yes, that's why you go trickster
There are multiple specs that have different hero talent, and talent setups for st vs aoe
proper bear
it's as common to have a dif hero spec recommendation for ST/M+ as it is to have the same
cinder relic
fb still cringe tho
Sure
I just hate when we complain about literally random things
lone spear
i suppose tho from a design level, having the hero talents seperated by "the aoe one and the st one" is lame
teal dust
tbt problem is having only 1 way to play the spec atm
lone spear
for any spec
glass mortar
@vivid vessel still sandbagging????
u just got omegagapped on that boss 😠
trickster st still meh i guess
maybe unholy st is really good
vapid blaze
i suppose tho from a design level, having the hero talents seperated by "the aoe...
its somewhat is?
like if trickster is the one doing aoe but no st
and fatebound is the other way around its very cringe
cinder relic
i suppose tho from a design level, having the hero talents seperated by "the aoe...
What the fuck else are hero talents suppose to be
keen belfry
i am trying but it looks like blocking will be more effective
this is just who popo is muffin, round these parts he goes by poopoo
wintry solar
I want outlaw to be different, why is that bad?
proper bear
what would it take to make HO not be dead next season?
craggy barn
a way to maintain 5buff overall uptime
glass mortar
buffing ho
keen belfry
builder dmg increase idk? its hard to compete with more GM uptime in aoe
cinder relic
I want outlaw to be different, why is that bad?
Different how
lone spear
What the fuck else are hero talents suppose to be
"this one plays this way, this one plays that way"
teal dust
what would it take to make HO not be dead next season?
lotta copium ig
cinder relic
what would it take to make HO not be dead next season?
You just buff ho
They do play differently with the new tier sets
teal dust
or we can just play ho an ignore the fact that kir is better
craggy barn
what if they make FTH 1 talent pt
lone spear
very differently actually
a) i would for sure not use "very" since the main diff is FB is not interactive with the spec
craggy barn
so ho can take PC without dropping something else
tho imagine kir just becomes better still
lone spear
b) the difference is unappreciated because the balance is bad
craggy barn
maybe
keen belfry
a) i would for sure not use "very" since the main diff is FB is not interactive ...
i would not say the main difference between fatebound and trickster is FB coin lol
lone spear
its the same reason why people are, right now, complaining about HO being weaker therefore theres only gonna be 1 good playstyle
glass mortar
fatebound is just baseline outlaw
trickster adds in coup
well both use kspree now ig so
keen belfry
sounds like u hate base outlaw
glass mortar
they do have some minorly different rules for vanish usage
keen belfry
fatebound is chill
cinder relic
Since ho and kir have been in the game the builds have been balanced. Just give it some time
craggy barn
wont FB get 100% ar uptime with the cdr tierset
lone spear
i mean base outlaw is fine, but whats the point of a hero talent if its just "do more damage"
THATS the problem
cinder relic
i mean base outlaw is fine, but whats the point of a hero talent if its just "do...
Because the other one augments the rotation in a large way
dawn talon
i mean base outlaw is fine, but whats the point of a hero talent if its just "do...
the point is that outlaw is already incredibly complex
keen belfry
Since ho and kir have been in the game the builds have been balanced. Just give ...
are u talking aoe or st or just in general? wasnt KIR way better DF s3
cinder relic
Not everything the spec gets needs to be "and also"
dawn talon
and having a 'this is just outlaw' hero talent
is much better for us than it would be for ret pala or something
cinder relic
are u talking aoe or st or just in general? wasnt KIR way better DF s3
It was like 2-4% better.
lone spear
i can agree on that, but then it needs something else to make it appealing
keen belfry
in aoe?
cinder relic
Unsure in aoe
dawn talon
it was ~8-10% better in 8t
keen belfry
raid was close ish yeah where skill was most important
cinder relic
Maybe. Some reasons ho is slightly better some seasons kir is slightly better
glass mortar
the biggest gap between them was in s1 this expac lol
dawn talon
and there was a lot of damage you could squeeze out still
glass mortar
kir was like 5% ahead st and like 10%+ in aoe
cinder relic
This season is gonna be a kir season probs
glass mortar
usually they are within 4% of st
dawn talon
the biggest gap between them was in s1 this expac lol
yep
vivid vessel
Now we're lying
cinder relic
This is why I call you over dramatic btw
vivid vessel
haha
keen belfry
you have to understand zac speaks in hyperbole
he dooms but doesnt mean it as much as he makes it seem i think
glass mortar
he only learned how to speak english (dramatized) not normal
lone spear
pretty sure we all do lmao
keen belfry
zeross just trolls
zac speaks in hyperbole
weran is stupid as shit
awang is goated
thats kinda how i tldr the yappers in here
lone spear
i said "fb should add something beside base outlaw" and your retort was "you hate base outlaw"
keen belfry
anmd wink is also stupid head
cinder relic
Fatebound shouldn't add more bullshit to the spec
keen belfry
add wink to stupid head list
cinder relic
The spec is already loaded with bullshit
cinder relic
Fatebound being "no added bullshit" is the point
lone spear
add some flavour then
keen belfry
I AGREE WITH GUY?!?
lone spear
add SOMETHING
i want to feel it beside the literal buff
thankfully the tier set is doin something
keen belfry
i think its good to have a chill hero tree
esp for outlaw
i think wink either hates trickster or outlaw or both
just my guess tho
lone spear
brother in christ its 3:30am and im yapping about the spec
wouldnt do that outta hate
keen belfry
no its 1230 pm