outlaw

[novel socket]

this mf

[vivid vessel]

im not really joking tho

lol

[chilly atlas]

killing spree peak gameplay

[vivid vessel]

if you really need a guy to soak mines nowadays i think a ks on boss is prolly ok

ks into cloak

[novel socket]

you soak 5 mines in mythic and your group doesn't die ?

with ks

[vivid vessel]

ye now you can soak them quite fast it wouldnt cause an issue

[vapid blaze]

idk i can survive atleast the first one even with evasion bugging out

[vivid vessel]

you overgear them so much

[fervent garden]

so that brings up a question. how ofter are you guys using CoS? I'm not doing to many defensives in general but trying to get a feel for what to use when.

[glass mortar]

almost on cd to live ks in m+

man gaining a whole defensive back next season gunna be kinda banger or

its kinda wild how often im pressing cloak to make kspree safe or because a kspree wasnt safe on live thinking about it

@vivid vessel

[vivid vessel]

yep

i dont use cloak as a defnesive this season

its only for ks

[fervent garden]

so CoS before KS

got it

[glass mortar]

well it depends

if i know ks will kill me, yes

if it might not, then no, i press it after

when i got a 20% dot on me

[fervent garden]

copy

[glass mortar]

but yea 99% of my cloak this season are to let me kspree or after a kspree that "killed" me

having it for actual raid mechanics and stuff next season again is gunna be great

[dim parrot]

Even with ks update cloak still gonna be used to greed uptime

[shell fossil]

yeah cloak tear gas etc

[dim parrot]

Awang that sword mog a good cook

[daring oxide]

wtf is this only panda remix toy?

[rotund depot]

yep, transmogging the old leggo cloak does it too sometimes iirc

[daring oxide]

i see

GG

[haughty wigeon]

Ya it’s the only reason I did remix

[median grove]

on a scale of 1 to 10, what is the 11.2 outlaw doom/panic level

[haughty wigeon]

For the wings

[haughty wigeon]

3/10

Need tuning

[covert kestrel]

theres hopium that because our single target is dogwater, and blizz loves tuning around raid, that they will be improving that for sure

[keen belfry]

It’s toy called like fury of xuen

[untold pine]

For the junkmaestro trinket what is the most ideal way to use it in ST?

[glass mortar]

dont let it overcap stacks

otherwise it doesnt matter st

[gaunt phoenix]

you just slam it, but hold for amp bosses

[glass mortar]

u can flex stacks to get more into damage amp windows or windows when aoe comes out but on like sprocket u could just send it on cd and it wouldnt matter

[gaunt phoenix]

& dont disrupt the cooldown of your 2nd trinket

[untold pine]

ok im trying to figure out which trikets to use for mug and it felt weird holding junk for 30 stacks

[gaunt phoenix]

using it 1 time at 30 stacks is the same as using it 6 times at 5 stacks

Unless there's a damage amp

[untold pine]

that makes sense thanks for the help i appreciate it

[hybrid crown]

It's nice just having a little extra juice to add onto dpsing ads

Like for mugzee I was saving it for the goons

[glass mortar]

one final note is if you use the trinket and its target dies before all 3-4 projectiles of the trinket "land", it doesnt consume any stacks

this is like, tiny minmaxing for its usage in aoe/m+ tho and i wouldnt try to force this

it usually just works out naturally for me (you'll have a high stack usage early in a pack, then itll be at 3-5 stacks when everything is in execute range and ur trinkets back off cd)

if u use it to snipe mobs you get "free" uses that dont cost stacks basically

[untold pine]

is it ideal to run it and geargrinders or should i just use seaforium with the on use?

[glass mortar]

i would never run double on use unless the game forced me to (it simmed as a big upgrade)

but its up2u

theres passive/active combos that sim within 0.3% of that setup easily so

[hybrid crown]

You can macro them to the same button press

Vexie first then magnet

[inner sky]

!helm

[hybrid crown]

And just use the magnet trinket at some point after vexie

So long as it doesn't mess with the second vexie use

[untold pine]

ok because double on use sims higher i just have a smooth brain so i went with only 1

[daring oxide]

RIP March 2025 to August 2025

was a good run

will we miss it?

[glass mortar]

no

[mighty pivot]

- was I a good skill? - no, I was told you were the worst

[frail veldt]

wdym

isnt the current version of KS from like cata

[prisma vessel]

yeah

[frail veldt]

not including little changes like the stagger

or it being ST instead of hopping around randomly

[prisma vessel]

like the dying to it has always been there

[frail veldt]

yeah this shit is like eternities old

[balmy topaz]

!FU

!fuu

[ornate heath]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[covert kestrel]

F U 2

[prisma vessel]

xD

[mighty pivot]

the game had fewer ways to kill you with it though

[ebon burrow]

!wa

[ornate heath]

Class packs:

• Guy's - Afenar's Edit Luxthos Edit
• Zac's Group Devlin
  Utilities:
• Combo Point Standalone
• Last GCD in Crackshot window / Subterfuge timer
• Ace refund sound trigger
• RtB buffs tracker (shows normal, CTO, and KIR'd buffs)
• Unseen Blade tracker
  Fun:
• Ace max combo counter and Ace current combo counter
• KS Ticking damage taken

[balmy topaz]

Bloody brain lag

[sudden fulcrum]

https://tenor.com/view/spot-gif-21006825

[mighty pivot]

that's not safe for the kitten

[wintry solar]

Ikr? Doesn't even have a seat belt

[balmy topaz]

[copper radish]

Hell yeah! Just in time for new weps

[balmy topaz]

[hybrid crown]

It was so nice immediately dinar'ing two items from mugzee kill

Myth knuckles 🤤

[glass mortar]

we got a leech capo to drop on my first mugzee kill

[balmy topaz]

Mine was a drop

[glass mortar]

and i was jus there so i could dinar it

🤤

got the goon squad instead

[hybrid crown]

I keep doing vault 10s for leech pieces

Haven't had much luck

[wintry solar]

I used to be excited to get a trinket

Now everytime I sim them, they're always less than 2% dps increase

That's being generous too

[sudden fulcrum]

it's all a plot to get you to make an alt and start the process all over

[frail veldt]

I mean isnt this better than doing shit damage until you have the bis trinket?

[wintry solar]

No

[frail veldt]

isnt it though

[glass mortar]

i mean its all about perspective but it used to be like everyone was doing shit damage until they got bis trinkets

[frail veldt]

yeah

[glass mortar]

and not it feels more like who the fuk cares about trinkets

[frail veldt]

thats an awful system imo

[glass mortar]

eh

[frail veldt]

bis gearing is shit

0/10

[glass mortar]

i think its fine for items to feel powerful

well ok so

[frail veldt]

yeah but you can have multiple trinkets feel powerful

[glass mortar]

im not talking about how trinkets compare to each other

[frail veldt]

havong ONE trinket be 10% better than the rest

[glass mortar]

im talking about how trinkets compare to no trinkets/last seasons trinkets

[frail veldt]

is explicitly bad

sure

I dont think thats what theyre saying here

they get a new trinket

and its 2% better

thats a lot

like what

[glass mortar]

like this season we arent in a race to the top with a bunch of super impactful trinkets competing

we are in a race to the bottom with every trinket just being dogshit

[frail veldt]

every trinket is equally good

not equally bad

thats a matter of perspective

[glass mortar]

our equally good trinkets are doing 2% of our dps overall

my perspective is thats shit

and feels like shit

[frail veldt]

yeah the overall power of a trinket is not what theyre talking about

theyre saying they want to see a larger jump

between trinkets

which I think is incorrect design

[glass mortar]

between seasons a larger jump would be fair

[frail veldt]

having trinkets be valuable as a whole is a good thing

[glass mortar]

idk what blizzard is obsessed with making it so the further u go into the expac the smaller trinket stat budgets get?

[frail veldt]

but having there be a large discrepency between the trinkets within a season is a bad thing

[glass mortar]

at least for dungeon trinkets

priory and the "house of cards" next season

literally has a smaller budget then HoC this season

at +30 ilvl

[frail veldt]

like imagine if thug hotline was just an 8% dps increase over every other trinket

how dumb is that

that would be so boring

[frail veldt]

yeah thats dumb

but again their complaint was that "im only gaining 2% dps from getting a new trinket"

[wintry solar]

That's a massive ilvl upgrade

[glass mortar]

ok but who knows what they were upgrading from

if i was gaining 40 ilvl and a brand new raid trinket over s1 gear

and it was 2% dps

that would feel pretty shitty

[frail veldt]

yeah

but going between trinkets within a season shouldnt be worlds apart

[wintry solar]

It was like a 639 to a 67X

[frail veldt]

you shouldnt have to fucking treasure hunt one trinket

[frail veldt]

of the same trinket or a different one

[wintry solar]

Maybe 668 icr

[frail veldt]

2% def sounds low for that

[wintry solar]

Different

[frail veldt]

maybe your older trinket was better hahaha

I REALLY hate when you have a new trinket thats like 30ilvl higher but is worse

cuz its the "wrong" trinket

[wintry solar]

Was a 642 priory actually

[frail veldt]

and what was the new one

[wintry solar]

668 sea

[frail veldt]

I mean 26 ilvl 2% for one item isnt unreasonable

[wintry solar]

You're misunderstanding

That was in general and I was being generous

The actual upgrade was less than 1%

.7 if I remember correctly

[frail veldt]

that doesnt sound right

id need to see the sim cuz that sounds very low

[wintry solar]

Idk man I just top geared it

[glass mortar]

well the thing about op trinkets is they almost always nerf them in the next season

but we dont need to worry about a next season rn

its the end of the expac

ur giving people 40% dps tier sets

[frail veldt]

my seaforium was like 0.3% per 3 ilvl upgrade compared to itself

so

[glass mortar]

what are we holding back trinkets for

[wintry solar]

It's getting replaced with pvp trinkets next season anyway

[glass mortar]

"why yes i will give this 730 ilvl stat trinket a smaller budget then s2 trinkets, thank you"

at that point why are the trinkets even giving rating?

[frail veldt]

rating?

[glass mortar]

if u dont want the amount of secondaries they give to scale out of control why not just have them give flat secondary %S?

this trinket gives 10% haste for X seconds

this gives 15% crit

[frail veldt]

ah

[glass mortar]

etc

[frail veldt]

then they cant control dr

[glass mortar]

should these trinkets DR?

is dr helping anything at all?

i thought we put dr in to prevent people from stacking too much of one stat but it feels like for good scaling specs u just go to third DR and then branch out now a day

which doesnt even feel that different then before but w/e

and then the worst scaling specs dont even get saved by it at all

[frail veldt]

well there are some specs that stop because of dr

but without dr itd be even worse

stat dr is a fine mechanism

[glass mortar]

i dont know it needs to impact trinkets tho

like oh boy the best 1.5m trinket they made this season (we only get 1-2 a season) is a mastery trinket and my class likes mastery but now i have enough of it that its super devalued

feels abit awk to me anyway, and awk that the stat budgets on this stuff is so random

i cant tell what the design intention is

[frail veldt]

what would taking that out solve

[late swallow]

😉

[sudden fulcrum]

RIP the yogussy, deleted before its time

[wintry solar]

I saved it, dw.

[late swallow]

i knew all the real homies would have time to save it

[glass mortar]

specs that would be absolutely slobering over the 1.5m mastery on use but might not take it becausse they are already at 2nd or third mastery dr even tho they are the dedicated 1.5m burst specs

idk

[late swallow]

why don't they just make a main stat on use

are they stupid?

[glass mortar]

they actually did infact, and its like turbo underbudgeted but all the trinkets except that op Halls one seem smol enough itll be good

i hope we get to play it it seems like itll have a lot of cute fake optimization we do in our brains that doesnt change its dps value

me when i press my stat trinket on a 5 buff roll

[frail veldt]

yeah which is a godo thing right?

you dotn want a spec to be able to stack on stat to infinity including their trinkets

[glass mortar]

ok but

[frail veldt]

cuz that can cause scaling issues

[glass mortar]

they make like 1 1.5m trinket a season

sometimes two

[frail veldt]

thats its own issue

that should be resolved separately

[glass mortar]

why do u care if the spec taking it is stacking mastery or not, its a trinket

i agree with what ur saying for gear

[frail veldt]

theres no reason they should be so limited on 1min or 1.5min cd trinkets

[glass mortar]

i feel like trinkets hit dif tho

[frail veldt]

I think this take only applies due to the scarcity of trinket timers

[glass mortar]

sure

[frail veldt]

so the real issue is that scarcity in the first place

[glass mortar]

but thats like a rule of the game, trinkets are scarce now a day u get like 8-10 in a season

[frail veldt]

just adding more trinekt timer variety would improve the game in a net gain

[glass mortar]

they make a couple dedicated 2m, 1 or two dedicated 1.5m and move on

[frail veldt]

instead of a tradeoff of removing dr which could lead to unintended consequences

[glass mortar]

just from trinkets*

[solar hazel]

which poisons are best to take?

[jolly geyser]

in game?

[solar hazel]

yeh

[jolly geyser]

deadly and then the other one

[wintry solar]

"In game?" Lol

[proven ocean]

Mewo — Yesterday at 11:56 PM
instead of a tradeoff of removing dr which could lead to unintended consequences
⚫#1 delve fan Weran — Yesterday at 11:56 PM
just from trinkets*
Bossieke — 12:14 AM
which poisons are best to take?
Ramlu — 12:14 AM
in game?
Bossieke — 12:15 AM
yeh
Ramlu — 12:17 AM
deadly and then the other one

'HELLO CHAT

I JUST

WANTED TO SAY

THAT IM GOING TO BED

GOOD NIGHT

OK

[wintry solar]

Gn

[jolly geyser]

good night redbull guy

[vivid vessel]

big ks changes guys

[ashen void]

Zac you called it bro

[vivid vessel]

im concerned

ks

[jolly geyser]

[vivid vessel]

isnt getting any changed

legit concerned

its getting late now

[jolly geyser]

maybe after people have played with it on live

surely

[late swallow]

BF nerf

lmaooooooooooooooooooooo

[hybrid crown]

They should have nerfed trickster bf amps if it truly needed a nerf

[proven ocean]

where are uy getting these notes from

can someone link

[late swallow]

LMAOOOOOOOOOOOO

outlaw in fucking shambles

[proven ocean]

[late swallow]

see you in sin general

[proven ocean]

[normal violet]

where are you all seeing these tuning changes

[prisma vessel]

natch potes?

[mighty pivot]

insider info

[proven ocean]

somnius relax or else zac will block you too

hes crying over everything lately

[late swallow]

didn't even post the best part

sin chads literally feasting

[proven ocean]

YES

YES

YES

NICE

[sudden fulcrum]

https://tenor.com/view/jack-nicholson-jack-nicholson-yes-yes-nod-head-nod-gif-17444176260167585294

[proven ocean]

OMG

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

[vivid vessel]

10% aura is still 10% aoe buff tho so its prolly alight

its like a 5% aoe buff and 10% st

kinda fine

[late swallow]

[prisma vessel]

if we gain 10% but lose 5% on BF...... its like a buff righjt?

holy sin buffs batman

[vivid vessel]

its still an aoe buff ye

[late swallow]

i hope NF still stays head in aoe

[vivid vessel]

i dont think you needed to nerf bf but whatever

dont care i think

[proven ocean]

HOLY SHIT THOSE SIN BUFFS

AHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAA

[vivid vessel]

i think its crazy to buff assa like this tho

[proven ocean]

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

OOOOOOOOOOH BOY

[late swallow]

assa was already fucking DRILLING on ptr

[proven ocean]

IS IT

A SIN SEASON

BOYS

[vivid vessel]

But assa is always the spec so eh

[proven ocean]

AHAHAHAHHAHA

[vivid vessel]

Ye idk

[late swallow]

3 sin seasons in a row

[proven ocean]

OH BOY

[late swallow]

unreal

[proven ocean]

ITS LIKE

IDK

15% BUFF ON ST

SO FAR

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

[worldly compass]

Envenom buffed more, rename Assa to Envenom Rogue

[vivid vessel]

Like it's a bit weird to me cause assa had better damage than outlaw already

And it got buffed by more

Almost 2 weeks in a row

Which

Idc anywya

Not my spec

[proven ocean]

LMAOAOAOOA its crazy my build will go hard too

[vivid vessel]

Not even my class

[prisma vessel]

hey, MM hunter and frost DK got nerfed so........

[balmy topaz]

Buffs

[prisma vessel]

its kinda balancing right?

[vivid vessel]

idk

[prisma vessel]

we will have to see

[late swallow]

crazy how did they didn't respond at all to any KS feedback

[vivid vessel]

we also got the monk thing reverted

so like

idk how to feel about that one

[prisma vessel]

did we ? damn.

[vivid vessel]

[balmy topaz]

I air mystic touch?

[velvet dagger]

this?

[vivid vessel]

ye

[balmy topaz]

Ahh rip

That’s fine I guess tho

[chilly atlas]

we back

[bright crane]

Are we mad or happy

[vivid vessel]

Yeeee

[bright crane]

tell me how to feel

[vivid vessel]

It's a 10% st buff, like 5% AOE or some shit

Unless I'm stupid

Idk

[chilly atlas]

the 1 player giving them feedback on outlaw :p

[vivid vessel]

Feel like you want

[cinder relic]

ALERT

[bright crane]

I need you tell me how to feel I’m not a big brain

[rotund depot]

what are these doodoo notes

[late swallow]

what's your take king

i don't have an opinion

waiting for yours so I can have one

[covert kestrel]

Foreverguy is Ryukage alt

[wintry solar]

I feel so neutral to this tuning

[late swallow]

[icy hare]

[waxen acorn]

I just want outlaw to not be trolling in prog

[vivid vessel]

i think its weird to nerf bf, but its still an aoe buff so its not the end of the world, i think its bad that we are this late into ptr and they still havent iterated on ks even once

[icy hare]

[waxen acorn]

I don’t think this moves the needle for that

[vivid vessel]

which means ks is already done prolly

which is like

weird

are they afk

but we knew they were afk

[covert heart]

They will prob do something with ks during a .5 patch because blizzard is weird

[vivid vessel]

they asked us for feedback just to fake it a bit

then just ignored

[covert heart]

Or like 1 month into the season

[quaint delta]

not keepin it realz (he still the guy for rogue?)

[vivid vessel]

they prolly just put every outlaw that gave feedback on the forum on a blocklist

no cap

[latent oak]

slowing down the spec is probably a design goal unfortunately

[cinder relic]

https://x.com/ForeverGuy5/status/1944882376028401905

ForeverGuy (@ForeverGuy5)

Rogue lowkey shit next patch but if they nerf the OP specs and give us 1 more buffs, it's about to be a #SubSweep on these damage amp bosses.

X · Jul 14, 2025, 10:11 PM

[late swallow]

opinion internalized

i'll spread the word

[proven ocean]

zorthar video going hard

also

sub boys out there

be ready to blackpowder at 3-4 targets

enjoy it while it lasts

[spring bay]

new ks seems pretty bad for pvp?

[wintry solar]

Yeah

[covert heart]

I am glad they don't really tune around pvp anymore

[civic zephyr]

the 8% monk buff reverted

[waxen acorn]

Surely one day outlaw will be the raid spec

[spring bay]

really not happy to lose the root breaker

[covert heart]

Like just worry mplus and raid where 95 percent of the player base is

[balmy topaz]

No it’s not built for it

It’s not designed for it

[waxen acorn]

You mean the raids are not designed for it

[wintry solar]

You have a free 3rd pvp talent slot for dfa

[paper lily]

Fuck man I don’t wanna play sub for rogue

[waxen acorn]

[indigo token]

knew this channel would flip out

[bright crane]

Ok so ol doodoo for raid but what about m+

[indigo token]

hi everyone

[covert heart]

Imma play outlaw in raid anyways cuz fuck it we ball

[indigo token]

how are the changes

[quaint loom]

[proven ocean]

outlaw 10%...st will be huge now

wtf...

[quaint loom]

real

[proven ocean]

real

[copper radish]

Outlaw S tier now gg

[covert kestrel]

I mean this is pretty measured

[proven ocean]

OMG ZEROSS IS SAYING 10% IS OP PLZ SOMEONE ARGUE WITH HIM AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

10% IS NOT ENOUGH ZEROSS

CALM DOWN ZEROSS

[late swallow]

fatebound single target gonna go crazy

[chilly atlas]

it's not enough

!!

[proven ocean]

[covert heart]

ITS AWFUL ZEROSS!!

ITS STILL F TIER WITH THAT BUFF

Is that what you needed?🤣

[brisk meadow]

[lone crow]

we lost tho

[waxen acorn]

Clearly buff it by 25%, then it won’t matter if the raid design sucks for how the spec is built

[lone crow]

ks is gonna exist

[waxen acorn]

[lone crow]

like this

pretty much

if they already do giga aura tuning

w/e i guess at least something

[bright crane]

Still better than current ks

Be happy with the scraps!!

[proven ocean]

big cope

[waxen acorn]

Except there still is like….3 weeks left before the patch and then another 3 weeks after that of live patch tuning

[proven ocean]

to think its F tier after a whole 10% buff

the 10% buff also increases the dmg of bladeflurry btw

[lone crow]

yes but thats like saying b eing barely alive is better than being dead

[proven ocean]

incase any of u guys didnt know

[lone crow]

both iterations arent great

[proven ocean]

so BF didnt get giga nerfed

[waxen acorn]

As far as I’m aware the biggest problem with current iteration is the CD

[lone crow]

?

its not

[proven ocean]

so ur whole dmg is increased by 10% + the aura buff also buffs BF so its increased by 10% on top of ur original 10% dmg buff

[covert heart]

I am glad I am more of an mplus player who just uses raid for the gear haha

[proven ocean]

for all of u casuals out there

[lone crow]

the issue is being stuck in a 3sec cast

[last thunder]

"we hear you, target cap is really bad. so we're making it worse"

[lone crow]

channel*

[waxen acorn]

That doesn’t matter when you can move and defensive

[daring oxide]

Are we dead

Is fatebound aoe absolutely dead now?

[lone crow]

lol

[lone crow]

ye ure goated

[proven ocean]

that BF is probably not even a nerf

like

at all

idk why u guys see it as a nerf

[bright crane]

Except you’re not stuck. Its apparently optimal to cancel at 7cp

[daring oxide]

Fatebound ultra dead?

[wintry solar]

Very ignornable

[haughty wigeon]

number goes down zeross

surely its a nerf

please ignore the 10% aura

[sacred saddle]

technically a 1% nerf

[lone crow]

what a great new spell right there

[bright crane]

Cause we’re smooth brains and see a number go down instead of up

[glass mortar]

No changes or even attempts at changes to this KS goes hard

[lone crow]

its worth it to cancel the freshly new designed spell

[haughty wigeon]

its

fucking

a \

[proven ocean]

brother, u understand that the aura buff double dips on BF right

[daring oxide]

Hello

[waxen acorn]

If anything canceling a channel feels like ass

[red zinc]

What does that even mean for outlaw

[haughty wigeon]

.26% gain

fucking

[proven ocean]

or do u not understand that

[haughty wigeon]

optimal

[proven ocean]

?

[lucid sandal]

blade flurry nerfed gg quitting the spec!!!

[haughty wigeon]

cool ya

cancel ks

[inner stump]

if number not big, monke brain sad

[haughty wigeon]

for .26% gain

[daring oxide]

Fatebound aoe is worse now and trickster is stronger???

[haughty wigeon]

and its probably not a gain now

[daring oxide]

Hello people

[proven ocean]

[haughty wigeon]

holy moly people saying its a gain to cancel ks

when while true it is a gain

[proven ocean]

guys BF got nerfed

[haughty wigeon]

its yet another

[waxen acorn]

So you had a problem with a channel, but now you have a problem with cancelling the channel?

[proven ocean]

it did not

[haughty wigeon]

.2% one

[tight kernel]

Where Zac

[waxen acorn]

[bright crane]

Ya and

[haughty wigeon]

that does jack shit for the majority of players

[glass mortar]

Someone archive the feedback thread since in 12.0 well be giving all the same exact ideas anyway

[glass mortar]

Wasn't more of tricksters aoe from bf tho?

[lone crow]

ah but ure clueless sorry

[red zinc]

yo @proven ocean zetoss hey what does the trickster change mean for outlaw

[bright crane]

It’s still better than current ks

[daring oxide]

@vivid vessel zeross is yap again

[tight kernel]

I need @vivid vessel reaction

[bright crane]

What’s ur point

[red zinc]

Or does that only apply to sub

[glass mortar]

Buffing all and nerfing bf should be a net power increase to fatebound

[waxen acorn]

No you’re just not being consistent

[daring oxide]

Probably ye

[proven ocean]

?

[lone crow]

no ure regarded

thats it

[haughty wigeon]

i needed that .26% gain to kill this boss for sure. should have canceled every killing spree

[wary bridge]

Finally S tier😆

[lucid sandal]

Better .26% than 0%

[proven ocean]

what trickster change

[daring oxide]

@gaunt phoenix help

[lucid sandal]

Simple math

[glass mortar]

I think its more the point of someone fucked up the math if is optimal to cancel the fancy new spell early

[glass mortar]

Even if its 0.69%

Who cares

[late swallow]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/974049216999612426/1395353971257774140/IMG_8292.gif

[haughty wigeon]

yes totally worth doing cringe degen stuff

[glass mortar]

It's dumb

[haughty wigeon]

[glass mortar]

How hard is it to math

[haughty wigeon]

well rest easy

[glass mortar]

Ok but the spell is more pleasant to cancel even

[haughty wigeon]

its probs

[proven ocean]

i dont see any trickster change for outlaw here wdym

[haughty wigeon]

not a gain to cancel anymore

:)

[glass mortar]

Because they failed

[haughty wigeon]

after aura buff

[daring oxide]

Wait

I read it wrong

[waxen acorn]

Ah yes the sign of true intellect, the insult

[daring oxide]

Is that for sub????

[real valley]

is outlaw meta yet

[frank finch]

seems like i came home to good news finaly

[indigo token]

its always been meta

you just never believed

[frank finch]

[inner stump]

will never be

[lucid sandal]

I mean you derive pleasure from not doing degen stuff I derive pleasure from doing bigger number

[red zinc]

Oh wait

[lucid sandal]

I don't think it's a bad thing either way

[red zinc]

Bro there wasnt an indent on my mobile notes

It just showed

• sub
• trickster

[real valley]

ok but seriously what do the changes mean

[lucid sandal]

I would rather not cancel it but I like number big

[red zinc]

Thought it was a global trickster change

[gilded karma]

no fucking way?

[red zinc]

Especially with them specifying “listed ability”

[lucid sandal]

We need solo to come through with the math

[red zinc]

Instead of just evisc

[proven ocean]

btw

i wonder how little that BF nerf even is

with the aura buff

cuz aura double dip buffs BF

so idk if its even a nerf lol

[lucid sandal]

Listed abilities is just all the abilities that interact with nimble flurry I'm pretty sure

[proven ocean]

wtf are those ret buffs tho]

lmao

[real valley]

from my perception it feels like it s a buff but the bf nerf is to balance it out so it s not too broken of a buff no?

[civic zephyr]

whats the verdict, which spec is best for rogue

[proven ocean]

@lone crow arcane mage buffed again

no way they buffed arcane mage

[opal raven]

outlaw by far

[proven ocean]

they're tripping hard

[glossy pewter]

Crazy question

[civic zephyr]

llmao

[glass mortar]

Well they said they r moving power out of mage tier into mage

[quaint mauve]

im finally no longer limited on discord

whats up guys

[glass mortar]

So I assume it's balanced or a net nerf

With the tier changes

[quaint mauve]

whatd i miss

[civic zephyr]

outlaw rogue damage increase even matter if KS doesnt get touched?

[sacred saddle]

we're crashing out for fun

[proven ocean]

OMG ARCANE IS SO WEAK LETS AURA BUFF IT 3% AND THE TIER SET TOO

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

LOLOLOLOL

[daring oxide]

@vivid vessel where is your analysis

[waxen acorn]

That’s a silly question

[balmy topaz]

Link?

[waxen acorn]

If outlaw number went up it went up

[proven ocean]

did u try wowhead

or

[civic zephyr]

im restarted, help me out

[waxen acorn]

Regardless of if KS got touched

[balmy topaz]

In my phone

[proven ocean]

https://www.wowhead.com/blue-tracker/topic/eu/ghosts-of-k-aresh-development-notes-577478

[craggy barn]

huge aura buff

[waxen acorn]

KS absolutely has some problems but a buff is a buff

[craggy barn]

we op now

[civic zephyr]

ah so they force KS change down your throat and compensate with flat damage increase

[jolly geyser]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/ghosts-of-k-aresh-development-notes-for-july-17th-major-class-tuning-and-mystic-377799

correct one

[waxen acorn]

For now yes, but I’m not going to sit here and act like new KS isn’t infinitely less frustrating than old KS

[red zinc]

Unc those are tier set nerfs

[waxen acorn]

Lower CD and not being incentivized to cancel it are the only two things I could ask for in regards to “fixing” the new iteration

[red zinc]

Aura buff though

Idk what that amounts to

[haughty wigeon]

raid buffs

key nerf

cause flying hammers doing less damage is big nerf

[gilded karma]

Sorry, I cannot leak

[white marten]

Were back on top baby

LESSGOOO

[swift hawk]

u mean zeross and zerocool is back on top

[white marten]

No i mean outlaw is back on too

[balmy topaz]

https://tenor.com/view/bosh-big-john-gif-11333787200871738645

[gilded karma]

https://x.com/Johnfis08605918/status/1945744510916444400

big john the boshfather (@Johnfis08605918)

Paris is a great city. Le bosh.

X · Jul 17, 2025, 7:16 AM

[naive river]

they gave us a 10% aura buff but nerfed bladeflurry by 5% doesnt that = the same in aoe? or close to it

[glass mortar]

Probably

I'd just wait for sims bf has so many multiplier on it for trickster

Annoying to hand calculate

It expect the goal to be a wash in aoe

[balmy topaz]

Did you see him fall over in the resteraunt

[near rock]

hand calculate deez

[glass mortar]

Or a small nerf

[gilded karma]

I'm scrolling as we speak

[real valley]

what is outlaw s problem right now other than ks feeling weird

[glass mortar]

No st

[real valley]

cuz if it s st then it s gucci buffs

[glass mortar]

So these buffs certainly help

Yea

I mean we expected tuning

[real valley]

10% is quite a bit

[glass mortar]

Zac was correct

[haughty wigeon]

remember

[glass mortar]

We just all wanted KS changes

[haughty wigeon]

its always a mage season

[real valley]

they also nerfed tier set

[glass mortar]

I mean did any mage spec get net buffed

[haughty wigeon]

dont dispell my propagand apls

[glass mortar]

Didnt they nerf all mage tier sets

[haughty wigeon]

anyways

[mighty pivot]

this is the new BF damage with PC

[real valley]

k sry

[haughty wigeon]

mages got buffed

we should riot

[wary bridge]

BF uncapped now👀

[glass mortar]

Kinda crazy people don't read the blue notes explaining the nerfs

[normal violet]

they make up the explanations

(jk pls don't kill me)

[glass mortar]

Sure if we have mage sims saying it'd net buffs that's fair

[naive river]

there was no notes under bladflurry im pretty sure

[glass mortar]

Just reading those and going mage buffed gg tho

Very silly

[covert kestrel]

With the 10% aura or just the bf

[glass mortar]

Well 10% aura has no impact on bfs % cleave

[mighty pivot]

not with the aura, this is how much of your ST it does to cleave targets

[glass mortar]

That's just showing what % of ur damage it's cleaving

[covert kestrel]

Oh gotcha

I'm on a very hot bus and my brain isn't working

[tender wedge]

So it’s basically net zero change at full cleave target count but more dam for lower, sure

[mighty pivot]

due to how PC works, only at max cleave targets was the BF cleave reduced by 10%, it's less the fewer targets there are

[glass mortar]

So at 7 targets on live you are cleaving for 75% of 100 damage

In 11.2 u r cleaving for 67.5% of 110 damage

Idk someone do math im on the train

@vivid vessel wer sim

[random stirrup]

74.25

[toxic umbra]

NERF

holee

[random stirrup]

gg spec dead

[glass mortar]

Probably depends on target count

I'd expect a wash or slight aoe nerf tho uea

10% is alot of st

[random stirrup]

pretty sure its a buff at all other target counts

[toxic umbra]

yeah same

[random stirrup]

well

also a buff for non flurried damage

so net buff at all target counts

[chilly atlas]

zac on top of meters, does ol need nerf?!!?!?!

[glass mortar]

It should be more positive for fatebound then trickster also? Maybe?

Idk I cba. Just wait for sims

Seems like good tuning gj blozzard

[sullen wyvern]

are we still not interrupting KS on 11.2

[glass mortar]

Well we were before these changes

[covert kestrel]

We always have since we summed it

[chilly atlas]

once you at full cp i believe

[sullen wyvern]

I checked the pin its a 0.26% dmg increase on ST if you dont cancel?

[gaunt phoenix]

if you DO cancel

[sullen wyvern]

I mean yeah if you cancel my bad

[covert kestrel]

Hi solo hope you're doing well

[sullen wyvern]

how about aoe? are there sims yet for that

[gaunt phoenix]

so yes it is a thing but it is minimal

it's the same

[sullen wyvern]

Ok, no cancel it is

Unless I gotta interrupt I guess

[real valley]

meaning it doesnt matter, just wait for it to stack to 7 and press asap so u dont waste a gcd, it s essentially the same

[sullen wyvern]

But that's 7cp, do we ever send KS with supercharger?

[red zinc]

Is this including gm being multi

[real valley]

honestly i think it s better this way than having a stupid macro to force me not to cancel it like void torment in s priest

[silk stirrup]

So after the changes we do more ST and same cleave?

[red zinc]

Oh wait ofc it is nvm

[naive river]

how are we doing the double coup? with tier?

[red zinc]

1% less cleave off baseline kit alone

But trinkets/enchants whatnot dont change so

[glass mortar]

The 4set is literally double coup

[red zinc]

itll be like 0.7/8% cleave loss

[glass mortar]

At 7 targets

[mighty pivot]

it's a gain in low target cleave

[naive river]

yea sory ment how many cp we spend on it

[glass mortar]

Did u calculate for lower

[mighty pivot]

from 5 and fewer cleave targets you gain cleave (with PC) - 6 is also a very minor gain

[glass mortar]

Gigachad

[gaunt phoenix]

you send coup early if you would otherwise have to press ss

[glass mortar]

I think they r asking about the gameplay with 4set double coup

Unless that rule is still optimal

I could see that

[proper bear]

Where?

[tulip quarry]

It is litearlly a gain of AOE from 1 to 7 target, and a loss of 0.75% damage at 8 targets

[white marten]

We s tier now bois!

[warped mantle]

so it's a 0.75% nerf on 7 targ?

[glass mortar]

Less

Bf isn't 100% of ur damage in aoe

But yes that's the bf damage loss

[warped mantle]

yeye I meant for bf purely

hmmm

are we barack

[gaunt phoenix]

good tuning

[tulip quarry]

That pretty accurate this time

We gain ST , we gain cleave

[remote pecan]

isnt singular focus gna make those assa buffs kinda giga?

[dark steeple]

so KS is a channeled skill now

[bright lodge]

How come they nerfed BF on 10% and up all dmg by 10%. This should be net gain overall in aoe even?

[covert kestrel]

https://tenor.com/view/the-shell-has-spoken-shell-gif-20382835

[thorn river]

!wa

[ornate heath]

Class packs:

• Guy's - Afenar's Edit Luxthos Edit
• Zac's Group Devlin
  Utilities:
• Combo Point Standalone
• Last GCD in Crackshot window / Subterfuge timer
• Ace refund sound trigger
• RtB buffs tracker (shows normal, CTO, and KIR'd buffs)
• Unseen Blade tracker
  Fun:
• Ace max combo counter and Ace current combo counter
• KS Ticking damage taken

[dark steeple]

outlaw = ww monk?

[wary bridge]

https://tenor.com/view/misinformation-spreading-spreading-misinformation-online-gif-4543841945782036495

[warped mantle]

is it likely a net increase on 7t @gaunt phoenix

[tulip quarry]

The damage loss is additive the more target you have, so at 8 target it's a small loss

[glass mortar]

Good tuning

Zac cult followers eating good

He knew this was coming

[warped mantle]

zac hopium won

[chilly atlas]

it's what he sandbagged for

[hasty locust]

https://tenor.com/view/copium-meme-pepe-frog-gif-26117735

[covert kestrel]

Zacs hopium arc always inspires

[vivid vessel]

Ok I did sim in my head

[real valley]

ok but cant u guys form some sort of cult to make shroud effectively something functional and with use again

[vivid vessel]

After thinking about it more than 5 min

It's not a nerf rn because numbers

But it's a nerf

[glass mortar]

How many iterations did u think

[vivid vessel]

Cause your st is always the same baseline from tier to tier

Right

Except now bf does 10% less AOE

Which I didn't think about immediately

Like it's an immediate buff without impact to.aoe

But in the general tuning thing

[glass mortar]

St went up aoe didnt move

Ye

[vivid vessel]

It's a 10% AOE nerf form one tier to another

[glass mortar]

Basically

[vivid vessel]

No

[proven ocean]

wait till he realizes aura buffs also increase bf dmg and it double dips too

[real yew]

This 10% in ST will be good enough to let us catch up to dnk, mages?

[vivid vessel]

You understand what I mean or

Your st damage is always the same from tier to tier

You do x st damage

[vital wave]

why it's a 10% AOE nerf @vivid vessel ?

[craggy quiver]

Boo why they have to revert mystic touch

[vivid vessel]

But this tier we will be doing 10% less AOE

[glass mortar]

Ok but ur aoe didn't go down it just didn't move up

Was outlaw aoe weak on ptr

I thought issue was at

[proven ocean]

10% aoe loss is severe copium

[glass mortar]

Relative to aoe

[proven ocean]

ngl

[alpine bough]

soon we will see this

[proven ocean]

[vivid vessel]

Well it was weaker than live

Our st was also weaker

[hasty granite]

in that key you were still getting an extra 3% from mystic touch pretty sure, right? the post says "This change will not be in the build datamine but will be applied to the PTR later this week." in reference to the mystic touch buff revert

[vivid vessel]

Like we do 10% less AOE than on live is what I mean

Or than every other season

Your st in the end get tuned to the same amount

Idk if you get me

I don't think it's a hard concept to understand tho

[proven ocean]

sin is probably the same

the buffs dont really increase our dps much

[bright lodge]

Bad tuning than!

[proven ocean]

cuz our tier set is so dogshit

[real valley]

it s a buff for s3, nerf in the long run cuz bf damage is baseline lower so if they don't touch it next season we re starting outlaw with a left foot because bf damage is 55 instead of the usual 65

[proven ocean]

i hope they buff sin more to compensate for the dogshit tier set

[glass mortar]

I think our st falloff was more due to tier+build change and trickster being shit st tuned high this season tho idk moreso then a natty falloff

[vivid vessel]

well its an immediate buff rn

[vivid vessel]

but our aoe = st tho

our aoe also fell off

proportionally to st

[proven ocean]

ngl weran

i thought about this

deeply

[quaint delta]

50 -> 45 + 10% = 50 still

[proven ocean]

with 2 redbulls

to be exact

[vivid vessel]

no

you dont get it

@gaunt phoenix

explain them

[bright lodge]

And we also lost some prio to KS rework

[glass mortar]

Ok I get what ur saying zac but I thought our aoe on ptr was fine

[proven ocean]

i think outlaw didnt really exactly got a ST nerf more than an AoE nerf in PTR

weran

[vivid vessel]

its less than on live

idk

[proven ocean]

u see how

[gentle sky]

https://tenor.com/view/shrek-pitchfork-kill-burn-stake-gif-11944381031693379282

[vivid vessel]

its fine ye

[proven ocean]

outlaw got a st nerf

[vivid vessel]

idc much

[proven ocean]

on ptr

[glass mortar]

Less then live sure

[vivid vessel]

just saying what this nerf means

[proven ocean]

because of tier

[glass mortar]

But was it still strong?

[proven ocean]

i think alot of u guys

including zac

aren't realizing outlaw got a bigger aoe nerf than a st nerf

from those changes we had last few weeks

[red zinc]

not me

[proven ocean]

and im being realistic here btw

[red zinc]

i understand it now

[vivid vessel]

In what in aoe weran?

[glass mortar]

Outlaw on aoe on ptr

[vivid vessel]

well no not really

but its strong on live

like strong +

not strong

so like

ok

[proven ocean]

u guys think its just coup

[vivid vessel]

how you have to take this tuning right

[proven ocean]

that increased our dmg

xd

[vivid vessel]

is that outlaw from live to ptr

does same st but lose 10 % aoe

basically

thats all it means

i think our st is prolly back to where it was

[tulip quarry]

5% from the nerf, and 5% from tier set ?

[proven ocean]

idk why u guys over look the BF nerf too much

i think the other nerf was way bigger

[vivid vessel]

the nerf is a 10% nerf to bf not 5%

50 to 45

[tulip quarry]

yeah its 5% st to ae conversion

[glass mortar]

I know the numbers I just feel like u were telling me the aoe on ptr is alright st is an issue

[tulip quarry]

Nwm ^^

[vivid vessel]

well its alright

worse than live

[glass mortar]

Ur overall is going up period with this right

[vivid vessel]

its jsut that on live our aoe is actually good

[glass mortar]

Just not by a huge amoutlnt

Cause all ur gains r st

[vivid vessel]

from ptr to ptr ye

[proven ocean]

aoe is way worse than live

[vivid vessel]

not from live to ptr

you get what i mean or

[proven ocean]

pre this BF nerf

the aoe is way worse

[glass mortar]

Sure

[vivid vessel]

i think this bf nerf is actually quite bad

[red zinc]

Dude i just saw the SP stuff

[vivid vessel]

we just dont see it immediatelly

[red zinc]

what the helly

[vivid vessel]

cause its a direct buff

or i mean net neutral

[red zinc]

Their 2+4p gave 45% dps

[vivid vessel]

from one ptr patch to another ptr patch

but in the end outlaw does 10% less aoe

which is a big number isnt it

[proven ocean]

same for sub tier set

where as

sin and outlaw tier sets

take alot of dps from u

u lose a shit ton

especially outlaw imo

[bright lodge]

But what if they tune us to do more in ST but weaker AOE so we have more prio than live, therefore our AOE will be the same as live?

[proven ocean]

im pretty sure none of u guys read what the spells do on outlaw

to understand

how big of a nerf outlaw got

in this ptr

[glass mortar]

Xd

[vivid vessel]

ok well that wont be a thing tho so

[red zinc]

zeross can you like stop insulting people with every point you make

There are other ways to do it

[glass mortar]

Thank god Ross is here to tell us all what the notes mean guy

[vivid vessel]

blizzard tunes st quite closely

[proven ocean]

idk why ur insulted by that

[glass mortar]

Nobody in here ever read an outlaw ability

In their life

[vivid vessel]

outlaw wont suddetnly be 10% ahead of live in st

[proven ocean]

im not trying to be rude lol

i just dont think anyone realizes how big of a nerf outlaw had

this ptr

cuz

[bright lodge]

So the raid parses is what they are looking for more

[proven ocean]

its way bigger than u think

[vivid vessel]

yes but

its not even my point

[proven ocean]

i made alot of researching recently

[dark steeple]

zeross you need to go back to runescape channel

[proven ocean]

i think BF already had a -10% dps nerf going into ptr

[dark steeple]

!!!

[proven ocean]

BF*

and now its getting another -10%

[vivid vessel]

I mean just take it as it is, from live to ptr outlaw does 10% less aoez it's like you took live outlaw and nerfed it by 10% in AOE

[random stirrup]

hes finally converted

[proven ocean]

and ngl

[proven ocean]

those nerfs arent even gonna look that impactful on sims

as sad as it may sound

ngl

i think outlaw is in shambles rn

[real valley]

that s exactly the point that zac is making

and that u re missing

[proven ocean]

nah u dont understand what i mean

[bright lodge]

I understand they are bringing us to the same baseline, therefore it's AOE nerf

[real valley]

ok

[proven ocean]

cuz

it took me a while

[covert kestrel]

No don't worry he'll convince us he's been right the whole time

[vivid vessel]

yes

[proven ocean]

to figure out what was wrong

about those changes

[real valley]

that's nice

[proven ocean]

check this out btw

[vivid vessel]

like im actually unsure if you want to be last week ptr outlaw or current week ptr outlaw

[proven ocean]

so

[vivid vessel]

cause the st would have been adjusted in the end right

[proven ocean]

in season 3

[vivid vessel]

but idk

maybe live outlaw is too strong in aoe ?

kekw

it isnt right

[proven ocean]

in season 3 u lose flawless form uptime

because u barely KS

this basically barely activates especially when u have bad rng

so ur losing 25% BF dmg

[random stirrup]

you dont ever lose dungeon overall right

it definitely seems quite strong

[vivid vessel]

wdym

oh ye

[random stirrup]

on live?

[vivid vessel]

but i play with a comp

that buffs me by 15%

and its outlaw

[proven ocean]

on top of that this talent is barely utilized now because we have less fazed uptime

[vivid vessel]

if its not ahead in overall wtf does it do

you dont bring a raid buff

no utility

[proven ocean]

so outlaw automatically has 10% less crit whenever u swap

[vivid vessel]

no burst

capped

[proven ocean]

bringing back the old shit BTE mechanic back

that increases ur crit

so u cant swap targets because u barely have fazed now

[wintry solar]

What about the smoke bomb?

[bright lodge]

You bring flat dmg profile

[wintry solar]

I know it's obv a meme

[random stirrup]

the second my outlaw alt hit 660 ilvl i never lost an overall again regardless of comp but i only did baby keys (16 and lower)

[proven ocean]

no