outlaw

[gaunt phoenix]

ya ik

i dont necessarily agree but i also dont want to disagree with you

[proven ocean]

Understandable

[vivid vessel]

Feels better tbh, otherwise the channel is just so long

And at least with it giving cps now you feel like something is happening

[proven ocean]

Maybe add up 10 0.3-0.9% dps gains and see how they add up on a sim

[crude flower]

Tbh i've always liked the gun aspect of outlaw so when i saw the animation i was like :D

[vivid vessel]

But then when it stops giving cp cause you are full

[proven ocean]

And you’ll see what i mean

[vivid vessel]

It feels like nothing is happening again

Ye maybe

[proven ocean]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-water-gif-19744162

[crude flower]

I think it would be cool if our gun could ricochet

[crude flower]

How did you get this footage of me

[proven ocean]

[agile orchid]

is this part of the PTR cycle where we are dooming

[proven ocean]

Outlaw is op in ptr

[crude flower]

We always dooming

[proven ocean]

No dooming

Just gameplay dooming

[agile orchid]

I don't believe you

no way it's better than casters

[proven ocean]

its doing same as enh dps

If that isnt enough for you

Idk what is

Enh = casters dps

[agile orchid]

the problem is I don't know if you are ironic or not

how is the boss damage in m+?

[proven ocean]

OMG OUTLAW NOT BEATING FROST DK THATS OP WE ARE FUCKED

Frost dk already does 30% more than everything

[agile orchid]

I've seen videos in the past few days where they complain outlaw ST is bad

[proven ocean]

Im not ironic im sick of all of your random ass dooming for no reason

When outlaw is literally good

[crude flower]

Tbh i felt as though this chat in particular was always dooming

Not as bad as like, the fury warrior channel, but still

[proven ocean]

Everytime ur all crying on how outlaw isn’t doing enough dmg then its still doing the highest keys and tops meters on many bosses

Legit same story every tier

[agile orchid]

yeah well apparently for outlaw to be decent it has to be 30% ahead of everything else or something

[proven ocean]

I know ur all gonna call me guy now

For defending outlaw

But he was always right

[agile orchid]

so what is the gameplay issue

you have to afk during killing spree?

[proven ocean]

KS is still bad

Haste being necessary is dogshit

[gaunt phoenix]

HO is dead

[proven ocean]

And the gameplay is far too fast and complex for my liking

[vivid vessel]

ye outlaw is so op rn thats why everyone plays outlaw on live

[agile orchid]

bro nobody plays rogue even when it's good anyway

[proven ocean]

Hes just dooming

[vivid vessel]

people play assa

[proven ocean]

He does 30% more dps than 2nd dpser in m+

[crude flower]

I agree with this
Fuck the haste req

[agile orchid]

are you ironic or

[proven ocean]

And still tells me omg outlaw is bad

[vivid vessel]

also i have seen casual play assa on ptr and it does more numbers than outlaw so

[proven ocean]

Pretends that he has me blocked too is wild

[proven ocean]

No, me and guy discussed this long ago

I believe its on the outlaw post too

[proven ocean]

@cinder relic did u talk about this in the wowhead post btw?

Im not sure what u exactly disliked

But it was similar

[gaunt phoenix]

guy has talked alot about how outlaw is overloaded with shit rn

[proven ocean]

Ye

[agile orchid]

so where does the extra fast gameplay and complexity come from

[proven ocean]

Compare current outlaw and bfa outlaw

I wonder how everyone played bfa outlaw?

[cinder relic]

I have been of the opinion for awhile that outlaw has too much going on RN

[agile orchid]

not like much has changed between live and ptr

[proven ocean]

It was way more fun

[cinder relic]

Too many niche rules and nonsense

[proven ocean]

Yeah

[agile orchid]

ah you mean in general

[random obsidian]

Hello guys, used to play only outlaw in BFA/ShL but got tank jailed at DF s2, considering coming back to Outlaw but is there any hopes of getting an alternate playstyle to crackshot, that isnt tied to stealth? Something closer to ShL Outlaw I'd say

[proven ocean]

Should all be removed

[cinder relic]

Less focused on "reacting to procs, and playing consistently well"

[proven ocean]

Its so stupid

[agile orchid]

I thought you were talking between 11.1 and 11.2

[cinder relic]

Its like, on tuesday evenings make sure you opportunity here

[proven ocean]

Nope

[cinder relic]

And on thursday mornings you do this

Too many conditional rules

[vivid vessel]

It's legit just trickster tho

Doing that

[proven ocean]

Its stupid

No

[crude flower]

Wow's first weekday dependant spec

Omg hype

[proven ocean]

Fatebound too

[vivid vessel]

You remove all the trickster stuffs and it's a normal soec

[proven ocean]

Its legit

[crude flower]

I can't wait to pop off on wednesdays

[proven ocean]

Outlaw

Not hero talent related

[cinder relic]

I think KiR is dumb too

[proven ocean]

The issue was there in DF

idk why ur pretending its a new thing

[cinder relic]

Ofc I've never liked KiR but the whole container stuff upsets me

[vivid vessel]

Oh ye for sure

[proven ocean]

I agree

[crude flower]

Wait what container stuff

[agile orchid]

agree, that shit is very unintuitive

[vivid vessel]

I do think once you get it it's nice to play around tho so idm it

[cinder relic]

It is true that a lot of the nonsense is concentrated in Trickster

[cinder relic]

I agree it's nice to play with but I just think that play pattern shouldn't exist

[gaunt phoenix]

bro hasn't read my faq ! ! ? ¿

[cinder relic]

and it's not that complicated

[gaunt phoenix]

the mechanic that makes KIR buffs not get rolled away

[cinder relic]

It still jur irks me

[vivid vessel]

I think kir should just lock your buffs till they naturally expire, and have a thing where you can actually differentiate them on your UI, like same icon but golden or whatever

[crude flower]

I barely play rogue anymore im just here for shits and giggles

[gaunt phoenix]

based

[vivid vessel]

Like you could reroll forever with your buffs locked in you know

[agile orchid]

what if they just make KIR give you guaranteed 6 rolls

and they fix the container stuff

[proven ocean]

Outlaw needs a total rework this shithole is fked anyway

[vivid vessel]

meh

thats not really fun

[proven ocean]

Not interested in touching this spec if it stays this way

[cinder relic]

I'd rather KiR just be a passive that was like "You no longer reroll buffs"

[vivid vessel]

reacting to cto procs is fun also

[cinder relic]

And instead RTB just adds

[agile orchid]

that would be quite nice

[agile orchid]

what are you reacting to lol

[ripe ibex]

i think kir feels amazing how it is

and i don’t think it takes much extra thought

[vivid vessel]

well you roll, then get cto and fish and react to the ctos you get to press kir

its still kinda reactive isk

[agile orchid]

ah

I guess

[vivid vessel]

i mean

its nice gameplay imo

it is reactive

[balmy topaz]

Also it's always good when you finish on like 3cps

to get KIR up

to get 6 buff KIR

Those clutch moments are always nice

[vivid vessel]

I think rtb could be that tbf, like not a button, just CTO on crack

I don't think the button itself is particularly interesting

[agile orchid]

it would be amazing to not have to stop your rotation flow to press rtb

[crude flower]

RTB off the gcd ? :O

[ripe ibex]

i don’t think it feels that way at all wdym

[balmy topaz]

With RTB now having supercharge I wouldn't say it feels bad to press RTB atm

[vivid vessel]

I think this can be weird in regard to CTO cause you would accidentally reroll CTO all the time

[gaunt phoenix]

a talent that removes rtb but megabuffs CTO

[cinder relic]

That'd be an interesting choice node, buff CTO but you can't rtb

[vivid vessel]

Ye

[cinder relic]

Solo stole my idea

[vivid vessel]

Kinda something like that

BUT

I think kir

The button itself

Is very cool imo

It feels insane to press

[ripe ibex]

yes

feels like you are doing something

[vivid vessel]

And fish for cto

[ripe ibex]

i think a lot of specs lack this feeling

[agile orchid]

it is an unique cooldown for sure

[ripe ibex]

and even non kir outlaw lacks this feeling

[agile orchid]

so for the new KS do you have to afk to not cancel the channel?

[gaunt phoenix]

Wdym

you can move

[agile orchid]

but can you use abilities?

[vivid vessel]

You can have stop channel macros

[agile orchid]

like rotational abilities?

[vivid vessel]

No

[gaunt phoenix]

like all channels

another spell will break it

you can grapple tho

i think

[vivid vessel]

And feint

[agile orchid]

so you basically afk for a few gcds until it finishes casting

[vivid vessel]

Sprint

And uh

Cloak

Evasion

I think

All of those

[agile orchid]

what if they made KS work like Breath of Sindragosa

when you press it each shots removes combo point and you have to keep generating combo points

[gaunt phoenix]

i'm ngl

if they fixed the targeting

[agile orchid]

[gaunt phoenix]

i dont think channeling a big dam button is that bad

[vivid vessel]

Eh it's just long

[agile orchid]

isn't current KS targeting random targets as well

[vivid vessel]

If it was half duration it would feel insane

[gaunt phoenix]

nop

[vestal notch]

feint breaks ks channel??

[vivid vessel]

It's your target

[gaunt phoenix]

nop

feint works

[agile orchid]

interesting, I thought it was basically Juggernaut's ult in dota 2

[vivid vessel]

It used to be random

But back then it would cleave to 100%

So it didn't matter

I wish they just did that for this one

[agile orchid]

well the solution is simple, they can keep the random target but it cleaves for 100% of the damage

[vivid vessel]

I just said that

[gaunt phoenix]

ya that's fine

[vivid vessel]

[agile orchid]

yeah I was typing and didn't see it

might as well just uncap the aoe too

[gaunt phoenix]

you would lose some 2 target damage i guess

cause 2 target you bf for 120%

[vivid vessel]

Eh no one would care at that point

Also

[gaunt phoenix]

ye

[vivid vessel]

Pc would work

No?

It just starts at 100%

[gaunt phoenix]

i dont think so if it did exactly what old ks did

[vivid vessel]

Hm why

Like gm and shit

And nimble

Why would all these not work

[gaunt phoenix]

did old ks actually do flurry damage?

i thought it was like

just aoe

i might be crazy

[vivid vessel]

Hm

@fathom bramble

I think you are right

No actually

You are wrong

It's br

That's like that

[gaunt phoenix]

yeah BR was just aoe

[fathom bramble]

yeah even when KS did 100% aoe it was still technically blade flurry damage

[gaunt phoenix]

i see

[fathom bramble]

I was surprised that the new KS didn't end up simply being aoe

it even kind of looks like an aoe and confused people when it first dropped

[vivid vessel]

Ok

Tinfoil but

I think they wanted to do that

And again

No time

Cause the animation and shit makes no sense

[agile orchid]

how would you guys feel if they made KS, BtE and pistol shot do fire damage instead of physical

[vivid vessel]

What does that matter

[fathom bramble]

BF nerf

[agile orchid]

because you would gain from dh raid buff

[fathom bramble]

that's all it would be

[agile orchid]

idk

[fathom bramble]

other than like messing with raid buffs ig

[gaunt phoenix]

i think it would be an interesting mastery or something

gun spells deal additional damage as fire

[agile orchid]

I am kinda dooming about the mystic touch buff

[fathom bramble]

I think any kind of magic damage focus on our kit basically demands a BF fix

[agile orchid]

if they keep it as it is on ptr we're going to be tuned like shit

[fathom bramble]

so that it actually deals the correct damage types

alternatively you just increase the amount of damage copied to offset the armor on copied magic damage attacks 🤔

[gaunt phoenix]

ptr key tuning is okay i think
raid tuning a bit low

[hasty warren]

low keys with aug + war + sham feels so nasty kek

[fathom bramble]

real effects aside idk if fire damage gunshots actually makes thematic sense without some other changes

[gaunt phoenix]

lol i guess

[fathom bramble]

mastery being % additional fire damage could be cool though

[gaunt phoenix]

maybe flamestrike damage or whatever the physical/fire thing is

[vivid vessel]

I think keys are ok now after the buff but the st is legit dead last closer to tank than DPS so

St and prio

But I think we will get buffed considering our st so Im not too worried

Being bad in raid is good

[fathom bramble]

Explosive shots: Between the eyes, Pistol shot, and Killing spree deal x% additional fire damage to your target. While blade flurry is active this hits up to 4 additional nearby enemies for 50% damage dealt. Modifiers to Blade flurry apply to this damage.

[mighty pivot]

being bad is good

[gaunt phoenix]

those mobs in siege of boralus had like

azerite guns

arcane damage

[agile orchid]

I find it funny how with each iteration outlaw is becoming more and more of a gunslinger

[fathom bramble]

wasn't all the azerite stuff fire damage

[mighty pivot]

the explosions in ML are arcane

[fathom bramble]

interesting

[mighty pivot]

which is very deceiving actually because the circles the extractors make are light brown which is usually physical

[vivid vessel]

Well ye

Being bad in raid but decent in keys

Means you get raid buffed

And that impact keys

They don't really do key tuning so

That's your best bet

[gaunt phoenix]

first boss freehold

[agile orchid]

I doubt they can buff the ST without affecting aoe

they would have to nerf bladeflurry

[vivid vessel]

Not really, unless you think live outlaw is too good

You think it is

[agile orchid]

I don't

[fathom bramble]

first boss freehold has an azerite pistol right

[vivid vessel]

So

[fathom bramble]

I wonder what leaning into Azerite shots of some kind would look like

[gaunt phoenix]

ya

fire again

[fathom bramble]

ace still makes an azerite noise

maybe we already have an azerite pistol 🤔

[mighty pivot]

what I don't get is how with seemingly minor changes ST tanked so much comparatively while overall stayed okay-ish. But that might also be due to how other classes were changed

[west ridge]

ye but we dont fire azerite

we fire bullets

[vivid vessel]

i mean you sayu overall stayed okay ish

[west ridge]

which are made of lead

lead is physical

checkmate

[vivid vessel]

but we lost as much overall as we lost st

on live if i do keys imma be topping

most keys

[agile orchid]

why did we even lose that much damage

[vivid vessel]

damage is relative

to others

[agile orchid]

our tier set is not as busted as others I assume

[vivid vessel]

first we got some nerfs with ks things etc

[west ridge]

we might have not
\

but other classes gainted a lot more

[vivid vessel]

but other specs also got better stuffs etc

[gaunt phoenix]

idk our tier set isn't 35% dps

[west ridge]

if a new tier set is insane

while ours is just mid

thats going to change things

[mighty pivot]

why are tiers even 30%+ is beyond me

[vivid vessel]

Idk last tier

[agile orchid]

because they are overtuned lol

[vivid vessel]

Ok but a lot of them are like that

Maybe it's just the baseline of tier sets is higher this time around

It's just a number

[gaunt phoenix]

unironically "scaling" matters a bit too

[agile orchid]

they will get nerfed, I don't think blizzard likes it when tier set amounts more than 15% of your dps

[gaunt phoenix]

We are balls deep into vers and crit is whatever

[vivid vessel]

balls deep

[sudden fulcrum]

[fathom bramble]

what if Realz drops a mastery rework in like 3 days

[mighty pivot]

Nuuuurse!

[neat mist]

Realz is on permavacation

[agile orchid]

maybe next expansion buddy

[gaunt phoenix]

they are working on DH 3rd spec

[vivid vessel]

im kinda tinfoiling that they are

i see no other reason they have been afk for the whole expac

[mighty pivot]

tinfoiling or coping?

[vivid vessel]

i believe it

no capo

[west ridge]

oh dear

[vivid vessel]

im 100% on the third dh spec train

balls deep like solo would say

[spring vessel]

did other specs get ignored as much when they were working on augvoker?

[gaunt phoenix]

when the bf bugs were a thing

they seem disgrunted they were pulled off of what they were doing to work on it

[west ridge]

blizz has 100% been afk on rogue stuff before for an entire xpac for no reason

[spring vessel]

i wasn't very active during df s2

[vivid vessel]

you dont know if there was no reason

so idk

[west ridge]

remember sub bfa

[vivid vessel]

i wasnt here in bfa

[agile orchid]

when do you think they would release this new spec

[vivid vessel]

but i mean

[agile orchid]

surely not in 11.2.5

[vivid vessel]

our devs are dh devs aslo

[fathom bramble]

we don't really have the kind of info that would be required to speculate at what augvoker could have caused

[vivid vessel]

dh got no change either

[fathom bramble]

only really Realz is communicative enough for us to guess at things like this

[vivid vessel]

and its rumored they are working on a third dh spec

idk

[fathom bramble]

since we know he works on DH and rogue

[spring vessel]

right, i was just looking for the pattern of "blizz is content with other specs burning alive while they're working on a completely new one"

[vivid vessel]

i know on what i would bet if asked tho

[normal violet]

4th rogue spec when

[fathom bramble]

well there was definitely specs that felt ignored, it's just that we can't connect them realistically without knowing if they even have the same dev(s)

[vivid vessel]

when we kill the boss

[worldly shale]

When the willow tree bears grapes

[vivid vessel]

or .5

[mighty pivot]

arcane trickster 4th rogue spec

[spring vessel]

yeah, that makes sense

[agile orchid]

another aug evoker situation

[normal violet]

4th rogue spec is just roll the bones buffing 4 players

[fathom bramble]

what if purple DH is another support spec

[worldly shale]

https://tenor.com/view/disco-fever-fortnite-dance-crackshot-fortnite-fortnite-crackshot-gif-14783290193556266424

[west ridge]

idk how blizz sells demon hunters being supports

[mighty pivot]

"sorry, billy, I rolled solo BT for you"

[agile orchid]

bring back restless crew

so we can ruin other specs' cooldowns

[fathom bramble]

let everyone else suffer our random CDs

but also restless crew was a balancing nightmare imo

[mighty pivot]

they should just make all specs support and leave only the hero class (mage) as pure dps

[latent oak]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54BJxZe4QqI

[spring vessel]

blizz hire this man

[latent oak]

restless crew gave us this clip

[fathom bramble]

this is actually unironically a massive potential problem with having more support specs

without very careful limitations you could easily get into a spot where having as many supports as possible buffing like 3-4 real players is always bis

kind of like how Aug almost was before they changed it to not allows multiple augs to buff 1 guy

[west ridge]

this video is goated

[cinder relic]

Something to always keep in mind that listening to feedback and acting on it are two different things and not always things people like us would want

If the Devs would "stop ignoring feedback about outlaw" rtb would be removed, crackshot would be removed, vanish would be removed, ks would be buffed not reworked

Because If you read wowhead comments, or reddit posts, this is what "the community" wants of outlaw

[vivid vessel]

Fake

no but on a serious note

[fathom bramble]

I do enjoy when someone that hasn't played rogue/outlaw in 10 years is insisting that the only way to fix the spece is to remove RTB

[vivid vessel]

i dont think thats true at all

its comments from non outlaw players

which idk ?

not the same shit

people nostalgic about combat rogue

[fathom bramble]

what I meant by 'ignored' was more like having virtually no changes though

[proven ocean]

[fathom bramble]

whichs makes people feel that their spec is being ignored regardless of what your personal feedback is

[proven ocean]

i miss this guy's stream man

wow is dying

[dawn talon]

people reading reddit threads*

they didnt ever actually play combat

bc NOBODY was playing that spec

[fathom bramble]

I was playing that spec

[dawn talon]

and here you are playing outlaw

which is also a spec nobody plays

[fathom bramble]

true

[worldly shale]

ALMOST nobody

[vivid vessel]

also

i think its important

that niche specs still exist

you cant make every spec appeal to the broader masses

[fathom bramble]

^

this is why we get so much weird feedback from non-outlaws btw

[dawn talon]

yes and in that same regard i think it is good and interesting that outlaw has weaknesses

as a spec on a triple dps class

[fathom bramble]

they are saying what they genuinely enjoy and play already when outlaw isn't that

[glass mortar]

i mean its a little annoying because i have watched the design cycle for the classes getting cooked so much this expac (shaman/hunter/mage/dk) and when they have a design cycle they go through like 1 set of pretty notable changes a week as they adjust for feedback

[fathom bramble]

which is just asking for a spec to be more like the ones they enjoy instead of just realizing the idea that not everything in the game is for you

[glass mortar]

we were told to give feedback and the feedback in that thread has pretty universally been "kspree aint it yet" with very clear reasons why

and so far the sum total of the "changes" theyve tested is

doubling the cd

then buffing it until ur almost forced to fullcast it

and thats it

[vivid vessel]

whgich isnt even a real change based on feedback

thats a change they said they were going to do

before even dropping the spell

hi, here is ks, please leave feedback, also we will increase cd prolly

[late swallow]

The intern from Fiverr is doing his best guys

[glass mortar]

yea realz had that idea already in his head when he was asking us to give feedback night 1 like

[vivid vessel]

only change so far: they increased the cd

[glass mortar]

that wasnt even a major point of feedback we gave

that we wanna cast it half as often

but w/e

[vivid vessel]

i think the increased cd is fine

btw

[glass mortar]

its not our turn, this is just a bandaid version of the fix ig

[vivid vessel]

it let you hold vanish a bit more

[glass mortar]

they will make this a better ability in 12.0

[spring vessel]

blizzard determined to make rogue hero talents feel as awful as possible

[vivid vessel]

you are slightly more flexible

[agile orchid]

Do you really want to channel KS every 12 seconds

[vivid vessel]

to play around coup

[mighty pivot]

they did improve trickster 2p to their credit but other than that...

[vivid vessel]

no?

but what i want

is a lower channel

which has been

everyone feedback

even guy think the channel is too long

so when i say everyone

i prolly ask a forum or reddit dweller

[normal violet]

Who is this realz person

[vivid vessel]

they will tell you the cast is too long

[agile orchid]

Reddit just wants every spec to be ret paladin or bm hunter

[mighty pivot]

even Mafic 👍 🏄‍♀️ 🏄‍♂️

[glass mortar]

was the main guy leading our rework in df iirc, now hes the class dev that posts in here when we are getting changes

hes one of the people on the class team

[normal violet]

Gotcha, ty ty

[glass mortar]

in df at least he was primarily designing rogue and dh but its more watered down now i believe

still posts in here occasionaly tho

[gaunt phoenix]

i'd argue we don't really know anything about what he does anymore

[vivid vessel]

[spring vessel]

also famously in charge of demon hunters as far as we know

[glass mortar]

yea i mean i think his position is still on the class team and him posting in here whenever theres rogue changes seems to be decent evidence hes still at least partially working on rogue

dont think hes the only one tho

[chilly atlas]

they had him train an ai to take over rogue dev work

[glass mortar]

and dont think rogue is the only thing hes working on either

[vivid vessel]

Rogue havoc and the third dh spec

Proven

[glass mortar]

doubt its 2 specs anymore

[vivid vessel]

I have my sources

Don't ask

[glass mortar]

but we have no idea

[mighty pivot]

"proven"

[vivid vessel]

Rogue is 3

[glass mortar]

2 classes*

[vivid vessel]

I can't share my sources

[mighty pivot]

I can respect that

[unborn turtle]

third dh spec gonna be range

[mighty pivot]

I am sure you wouldn't lie

[leaden folio]

outlaw gonna be tank spec

[vivid vessel]

nop

[mighty pivot]

https://tenor.com/view/arthur-lies-lie-internet-lie-stop-lying-gif-16106191074125891844

[vivid vessel]

i would never

when is the last time i lied

[dawn talon]

dude now im malding over the goddamn 'turn x spec into y thing' people again

go play something else man

[leaden folio]

zac, do you think outlaw is possible on season 3

no way you play outlaw at tazavesh gambit right ?

[vivid vessel]

i think outlaw st/prio is very low and a big weakness

i think it will get buffed

and will be similar to this season

im not too worried

[chilly atlas]

how long will it take to get buffed tho?

[vivid vessel]

2 weeks

[fathom bramble]

I couldn't imagine sitting on like warlock forums and complaining that I have a pet or cast times

[vivid vessel]

from now

[proven ocean]

oh

guys

guess what

[fathom bramble]

people will walk into an Outlaw forum and complain about core class features that have been around for 10-20 years

like

why are you here

[chilly atlas]

casual gapping noobs so sub op?

[vivid vessel]

quote me in 2 weeks if our st isnt buffed

[proven ocean]

i never knew raid buffs are that op

wtf

sub is doing alot of dps

hmm

st seems quite crazy high

[leaden folio]

zeross you get 8% on sin

[prisma vessel]

but outlaw has grapple hook 😄

[proven ocean]

i wont talk about sin

unless i play

[cinder relic]

Sub is going to be the best rogue spec this tier, and on some fights it's going to be one of the best specs

[vivid vessel]

its a 12

[proven ocean]

if im playing next season im gonna talk about sin

but im not

[cinder relic]

Pillar boss and dragon boss r gonna be huge for sub

[vivid vessel]

the people are prolly mega randoms

but i mean sub got a 30% tier set

[chilly atlas]

that was part of the joke :p

[proven ocean]

ye it will 100% be crazy in raid

[vivid vessel]

++

idk how much its at now

40?

surely that gotta amount for something

[unborn turtle]

will it get s2 tier treatment b4 lauch

zzzz

[spring vessel]

poor shadow priests are so used to being abused that they're actively calling for nerfs on their own tier set

[vivid vessel]

pillar boss?

[spring vessel]

the sad part is, blizz just nerfed base shadow instead of the tier set on the last round of tuning

[vivid vessel]

eh

that doesnt matter

only the end number matter

[spring vessel]

don't tell that to the shadow priest community

[glass mortar]

the direct damage + flexible on use trinket next season seems cute also

sub has alot of vers to amp the direct damage

i wonder if it or the mastery 1.5 will be better

the mastery one seemed undertuned and they r deep into mastery dr no?

[red zinc]

Wait what why

is deathstalker better

[proven ocean]

?

no

[glass mortar]

isnt it the trickster one

[proven ocean]

trickster

[red zinc]

or is coup op button for sub

[glass mortar]

trickster one is much better for sub then it is for law

[vivid vessel]

they play trickster

[glass mortar]

more then double the value iirc

[vivid vessel]

the tier set was 30% before the latest buffs

idk how much the buff brought it up

[red zinc]

yeezus

[dawn talon]

you would be amazingly surprised

HAHAHAHA

[hasty warren]

Hi pirates

[leaden sonnet]

It was ~24% so its probably around 28-29% now

[red zinc]

I mean sub was already going to be great with the instant damage amp stuff

in raid

[vivid vessel]

i have been lying on the internet again

[glass mortar]

honestly i wish we had a silly current ptr tier set comparison list because every tier set ive heard of except trickster is in the 25-40% range and that seems pretty wild to me

[vivid vessel]

gg

[cinder relic]

The dude with the pillars

[glass mortar]

sins seems lower

[cinder relic]

And he pulls

[glass mortar]

but i have no clue

[vivid vessel]

ok that doesnt help me at all

[leaden sonnet]

The 2 minute one unless the fights are really long

[cinder relic]

LOL

[vivid vessel]

OOOOH

[red zinc]

Second to last one?

[cinder relic]

I forget his name

[vivid vessel]

No i got it

[cinder relic]

The one u said is an outlaw boss

[glass mortar]

oh i didnt see the 2 minute one

[vivid vessel]

the one where you spawn adds

perma

yeye

i got it

pillar boss sure

[glass mortar]

wait so ur just playing the 2m trinket like a 3m on use?

damn the budget on that thing must be sick

[leaden sonnet]

No the others just suck

[glass mortar]

oh rip

[leaden sonnet]

The prism one is okay, but not having one on pull sucks

[vivid vessel]

but like cant you play that + prism

[glass mortar]

true honestly i could see law being able to play that one

[vivid vessel]

and ytou have a use for each set

[leaden sonnet]

And unlike spymaster where you could hold the trinket and get double value next cds

[vivid vessel]

surely that aint that bad

[leaden sonnet]

This one caps after 2:30

[leaden sonnet]

Well you also have no 2nd trinket for any cds

[glass mortar]

i like the idea of making it so u dont wanna be sitting afk on a trinket for 3 minutes then mega blasting cause that can feel lame

[proven ocean]

btw

like

[glass mortar]

idk why the stats on alot of these trinkets seem so underbudget tho

[vivid vessel]

ye sure i guess

[proven ocean]

prism would've been turbo op if we could prestack it

but they fixed that

like

2 weeks after

[vivid vessel]

bu what trinkets do you guys usually play

[proven ocean]

which is cringe

[vivid vessel]

random stats procs

surely these stfufs arent high value either

[leaden sonnet]

Pacemaker

[proven ocean]

in M+ i played double on use

[cinder relic]

Sub plays op on use and then random other trinket

Stats, damage proc

[proven ocean]

its very strong that way

[cinder relic]

Legit don't matter

[proven ocean]

i did some crazy dps with double on use

like fdk kind of dps

double on use will be the new meta for sure in m+

easily

sub that is

[leaden sonnet]

Idk i dont see why you would play double on-use, but people were playing it for all of s3 in DF so

[hasty warren]

vexie key + magnet was the best trinket for me

[proven ocean]

prism stacks u cant use it at 0 stacks

so u want to alternate this trinket and the 2 min trinket

[vivid vessel]

cause with a 2 min you have nothing for your 2nd set idk

sounds bad

where sims

show sims

[proven ocean]

prism is undersimming in m+ btw

just saying

in real keys

[leaden sonnet]

But no second trinket makes your burst suck way worse

[proven ocean]

ur getting way more value

[leaden sonnet]

[proven ocean]

i dont think burst matters

at all

on it being too strong or too weak

it just has to be there, it does good enough dmg

double on use is way better i dont think its even close honestly

prism at 15 stacks goes really really hard

im ending st at 4m dps

[vivid vessel]

i dont get that

usually uyou guys play with trash stats procs

that have potentially like 20% uptime or whatever

[leaden sonnet]

And big stat passives

[vivid vessel]

you get one proc in a fight on your cds

like how good is that

like surelty it aint that big

[glass mortar]

it is kinda weird u guys like stat proc trinkets. what is dance uptime during a fight?

u guys have so much natty crit and stack vers

i feel like direct damage trinkets should do ok

[leaden sonnet]

Unless the fight is really short the best simming is prism (assuming the halls of gets nerfed to reasonable values)

[strong halo]

Does outlaw even have cds ?

[vivid vessel]

no

[leaden sonnet]

But you just play it like a 90s trinket

[strong halo]

Aren’t we in perma cd

[leaden sonnet]

Because holding it longer wastes a bunch of the stacks

[proven ocean]

prism is heavily undersimming you cant sim that trinket at all

[vivid vessel]

we are talking about sub

[leaden sonnet]

Since they decided to cap it at 2:30 instead of something reasonable like 3m

[strong halo]

Mb

[proven ocean]

its impossible to sim prism because dslice is completely the opposite of how strong that trinket is in a real key

[glass mortar]

i see why they didnt make it 3m

but it should just... have more stats on it?

idk people like op trinkets

i wish every season was picking between 5 op trinkets

and not a race to the bottom

"oh the budget on the dedicated 1.5m/flexible trinket are so shit we might use a 2m on use as a 3m trinket"

[vivid vessel]

Hm

[leaden sonnet]

Then its just a worse version of a 2 min or a 90s trinket for the most part

Which i dont get

[vivid vessel]

I prefer low budgets trinkets

[strong halo]

Season 1 wasn’t that bad for trinkets

[leaden sonnet]

When it could just be way more fun if it stacked a bit higher

[glass mortar]

well it doesnt need to be worse

[vivid vessel]

At least it doesn't feel bad not getting the bid trinket

[glass mortar]

if it was more similar to spymaster and gave passive stats as it ramped up it wouldnt be that much worse

but yea no opener useage is a bit awk

i feel like u can fix that if u give it a passive where when entering combat once every 3m you gain 10 stacks instantly

or something like that

[leaden sonnet]

Like spymaster was cool because you could not send it and then have it be twice as good next cds

Whereas with prism it caps before that

[glass mortar]

spymaster was also cool because it was literally just a growing larger and larger stat stick while u waited to unload it

this trinket if ur holding it for 3m is just the damage proc and literally nothing else

a bit rough

not enough budget for that

[strong halo]

For mages spymasters not being used was still better than any other trinkets

[glass mortar]

yea that thing was unhinged

there was a couple unhinged trinkets s1 tbh

and they seem to be afraid now

[vivid vessel]

I didn't know spymaster just gained more stags

Stats

[glass mortar]

yes

each stack gave u passive int

[vivid vessel]

I thought it was exactly like prims

[glass mortar]

🙂

[vivid vessel]

Lol

[glass mortar]

it was a stat stick until u used it

with a good budget even

kinda wild no?

[vivid vessel]

I see

[strong halo]

I like unhinged

[cinder relic]

House of cards wasn't a 1:30 until one of the last patches

[glass mortar]

i think prism deserves to be overbudgeted considering the lack of ability to use it on ur opener cds

it definitly isnt right now

[strong halo]

House of cards ended up being so mid it’s insane

[glass mortar]

still cool trinket design

i like the idea

maybe it shoulda just gone to 4 minutes like spymaster so it was ultimate flexibility

have they done anything to the funny 30k mastery proc trinket with like 40% uptime in keys from delves yet

or is it not as op as people thought

[cinder relic]

Well initially there was literally 0 1:30 trinkets

Hoc got changed from a 2 to a 1:30

[mighty pivot]

they should make stat trinkets using the magnet formula and they can work on more specs

[fathom bramble]

HoC is also weird since they printed it under budget for some reason

[vivid vessel]

magnet thing was so cool

i hope we get more magnet things

[random stirrup]

magnet is one of my fav trinkets from recent tiers

[vivid vessel]

it was interesting

[fathom bramble]

it has the appropriate budget for a stat trinket at max stacks only

which isn't usually something they do to simple trinkets that just give stats like that

[leaden sonnet]

Especially not those that drop of late raid bosses

Those are usually slightly above budget

[fathom bramble]

true

I was surpised that the 'on budget' number was max stacks and not 0 when I checked

[glass mortar]

especially considering currently the 1.5m mastery trinket on ptr has an even smaller budget

like trinkets r getting weaker every season

idk y

i guess it is a dungeon trinket

[fathom bramble]

Maybe the budget is changing on purpose

[south glen]

whats the tricks macro?

[late swallow]

!tricks

[ornate heath]

Smart tricks WA on tank, this require the following macro:

/click SmartMisdirect LeftButton 1
/click SmartMisdirect LeftButton 0

[fathom bramble]

that new mastery on use is almost exactly 80% of the expected budget

considerably worse off than hoc for whatever reason

[mighty pivot]

ye that makes 0 sense

considering it's about items of two different seasons

[fathom bramble]

are there any other stat on use trinkets this coming season

[glass mortar]

well, the flexible one

and theres a 2m one eleem mentioned subs gunna use? i dont know the 2m one tho

[tender wedge]

There’s always the pvp one for an early pickup

[glass mortar]

the budget on the flexible one was like ~7.2k agi last i checked tho

which is

very underbudget

[fathom bramble]

there doesn't seem to be anything else that is just simple secondary stat

at least on the trinket vendor

everything else is either primary stat or has some weird extra effect on it

[leaden sonnet]

Ye im aware, and the halls of atonement one is like 40-50% over

But its not on the vendor

[vivid vessel]

i looted it actually

pog ?

is that bis

sub main now

[leaden sonnet]

Yes it sims like 4% over prism

[glass mortar]

huh

[leaden sonnet]

[glass mortar]

sucks its crit but i guess u guys arent as crit overcapped as us and u have more hard hitters then u have guarenteed crits for

[leaden sonnet]

Well it doesnt matter what stat it is when its that much of it

[fathom bramble]

so they just gave it infinite stat for a 1 sec channel

weird

[leaden sonnet]

17 ilvls higher than house of cards but almost twice as much stats

[random stirrup]

channel

[mighty pivot]

they still haven't fixed that the crit you get per target doesn't make sense in relation to the maximum

[vivid vessel]

Wait

21k max

In AOE you just double the value of the trinket ?

And it's stats already?

Why does it scale in AOE

Am I stupid

[random stirrup]

its 17k and goes up to 21 if you hit some targets

[vivid vessel]

Oh ok

Still

Why

My st trinket don't even scale with more target

It's split damage

And cringe

[mighty pivot]

why do you need 3,6 targets to get the max though

[vivid vessel]

And these things you get more stats with more targets

That's crazy

[mighty pivot]

is it real split or "fake" one which scales up to 150% or whatever the limit is?

[vivid vessel]

Fake

Which is absurdly terrible damage increase

And I would rather these trinkets were pure st than these shit scaling

[mighty pivot]

I hate tooltips which straight up lie to you

[vivid vessel]

Cause its split damage so you lose all prio for like 30% more damage

[random stirrup]

they love these aoe scaling trinkets now

maybe its a test

[vivid vessel]

Which is straight up terrible

[frail veldt]

I'd rather it just not split yeah

Give me Midas back

Pls

Mydas

[dull geyser]

how do we sim? 1T and Dslice? Need help plz

[vivid vessel]

Ok well stats trinkets are already scaling in aoe

[frail veldt]

Banger trinket

[vivid vessel]

It's stupid to make it sclae even more

[frail veldt]

Ye both or either

[random stirrup]

[frail veldt]

If you're doing dungeons use dslice

[random stirrup]

have u tried being a caster and scaling well off all stats

[mighty pivot]

have u tried being a caster and scaling well off all stats

[rare matrix]

Does the new KS channel lock us in place?

[cinder relic]

Nop

[rare matrix]

Like Demolish for Warriors

Oh thank god

Can we interrupt it with another ability? Had to macro a few when playing DH to not interrupt Eye beam

[fathom bramble]

yes

you can use movement and defensives, but kick and offensive skills cancel it

[rare matrix]

A small sacrifice I suppose, It will be missed

[fathom bramble]

better than old KS that you simply couldn't cancel lol

[rare matrix]

Very true, Very true

[frail veldt]

It has its problems but it's pretty undeniably better than the current one

The current KS is incompatible with the current version of wow

[fathom bramble]

for sure

it has like 2 or 3 things that are still somewhat problematic

[astral grove]

hello everybody, how can i get thunderfury hidden outlaw artifact skin today?

[fathom bramble]

the same way you got it in legion

guides from all those years ago should still be accurate other than Artifact knowledge not existing anymore

so you can ignore that portion of the requirements

[astral grove]

ah ok thanks

I was watching his drop chance is extremly low, right ?

[buoyant cosmos]

Might be buffed for the weekly event

monthly event rather

[mighty pivot]

of the bindings?

[astral grove]

yep

bindings

[mighty pivot]

it's not low

[buoyant cosmos]

That's the original one

[mighty pivot]

this is the one from vanilla

[astral grove]

I was watching this page and others says the same

[buoyant cosmos]

That's not the artifact skin

[astral grove]

no 😮 ?

[buoyant cosmos]

https://www.wowhead.com/quest=43558/bindings-of-the-windlord

[astral grove]

thanks gonna try

[covert kestrel]

are those just higher quality model than the original thunderfury?

[vivid vessel]

[chilly atlas]

how are you even testing aug when the bm can solo dps it

[sonic talon]

yes and no, they are different a bit

[south glen]

artifact one is better

[sonic talon]

original vs new model (artifact)

subjective

[alpine stag]

!WA

[ornate heath]

Class packs:

• Guy's - Afenar's Edit Luxthos Edit
• Zac's Group Devlin
  Utilities:
• Combo Point Standalone
• Last GCD in Crackshot window / Subterfuge timer
• Ace refund sound trigger
• RtB buffs tracker (shows normal, CTO, and KIR'd buffs)
• Unseen Blade tracker
  Fun:
• Ace max combo counter and Ace current combo counter
• KS Ticking damage taken

[covert kestrel]

smaller so looks worse

[vivid vessel]

this neck gonna go crazy

[sonic talon]

damn

[vivid vessel]

litteraly trash for everyone else but else

easy take

[sonic talon]

free neck ✅

[random stirrup]

arcane mage neck 💯

[sonic talon]

not enough haste for arcane smh

also think mastery might be better next tier for vers, not sure tho, i might be wrong

for arcane i mean

[fathom bramble]

is that raid or dungeon loot though

[vivid vessel]

raid

third boss

[fathom bramble]

interesting

[vivid vessel]

its free

[fathom bramble]

default outlaw item

[vivid vessel]

yep

[fathom bramble]

just like the high vers roulette wheel that never dropped for us

rarer than very rare items

[balmy topaz]

Which boss drops

[fathom bramble]

I need a good list of all the loot this season

and it appears that no one else has made one yet

a list that doesn't require me to log into the ptr

[vivid vessel]

nothing lok

thats it

thats the list

the next

neck

[fathom bramble]

are there good rings from M+ this time

or no

[balmy topaz]

Probably not

Tavesh ring

Are we getting City of threads back?

[covert kestrel]

Nah

[balmy topaz]

FAK

[covert kestrel]

Literally got no votes lol

[fathom bramble]

people just voted for all the dungeons with good trinkets...

[balmy topaz]

Ara-kara...

I hope we don't run that shit

[fathom bramble]

at least there is only 5 items

[balmy topaz]

True

[mighty pivot]

ara ara

[fathom bramble]

chance of looting a sacbrood assuming no traders is 8%

just get the drop

[upper surge]

can someone explain to me

why im getting recommended this garbage

[vivid vessel]

leave a like

subscribe

hit the bell

[balmy topaz]

Hunter died btw

Our ST is so asssss wtf

[mighty pivot]

are you sure it's not skill issue?

[summer frost]

!guide

[ornate heath]

Outlaw Guides:
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/outlaw-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/outlaw-rogue-pve-dps-guide
Method: https://www.method.gg/guides/outlaw-rogue

[vivid vessel]

im not reading ytb chat

[upper surge]

maybe if you werent typing here you wouldnt have died

[vivid vessel]

i didnt

[balmy topaz]

No the hunter died

[fathom bramble]

might have to craft at least 1 ring again

everything sucks

[balmy topaz]

Tavesh ring and maybe we can get one from raid

idk

[mighty pivot]

iirc the rings from the raid are kinda poop

[tropic zephyr]

tompelvis would have busted 4M ez

[fathom bramble]

none of the rings from raid have vers

and the one with haste/crit has an insane amount of haste on it that you might not be able to realistically build around

[obtuse zinc]

what is the role of an outlaw in m+ group at the moment ?

[balmy topaz]

Ye craft it is then

[worldly shale]

Killing

[fathom bramble]

definitely a PvP angle again at least

[upper surge]

uh

[fathom bramble]

a good pvp or delve ring will last a while

[upper surge]

is there an emote

that shows what cloak of shadows does

for @vivid vessel

[mighty pivot]

what

[vivid vessel]

no

[upper surge]

sorry zac

ill stop

gl buddy ❤️

[keen belfry]

zac said vod review then went afk

[desert tendon]

dont stop

[keen belfry]

im done with zac

[desert tendon]

keep harrassing zac

he deserves it

[keen belfry]

tomelvis is cooked in my book

[desert tendon]

imagine you re so unskill at life

that you gotta buy a new mouse every 2 month

as a wow player

[past falcon]

i literally just ordered a new one don’t trigger me😭

[desert tendon]

you dont order a new mouse every 2 months

you re fine

i even think you re cute

[past falcon]

omg

hewwo uwu 👉👈

[keen belfry]

brb i think imma clean my kitchen

[red zinc]

lost to 3x nerfed class with 3x buffed class

krill issue

[frail veldt]

lol KS with no targets???

you can do that now?

[vivid vessel]

ye

[frail veldt]

thats silly

[fathom bramble]

can it break other rogues out of stealth?

[frail veldt]

maybe

I dont think its an aoe ability though

its just a targets random enemies ability

so

[fathom bramble]

maybe then

[frail veldt]

if they pop up as targetable maybe

but its a super small radius

might as well just hit bladeflurry

[fathom bramble]

true

pvp on the ptr was very silly when BF was castable in stealth and could knock other rogues out of stealth

[glass mortar]

they shuld make it so if u have no targets (or in range) u shoot into the sky

[vagrant jacinth]

!wa

[ornate heath]

Class packs:

• Guy's - Afenar's Edit Luxthos Edit
• Zac's Group Devlin
  Utilities:
• Combo Point Standalone
• Last GCD in Crackshot window / Subterfuge timer
• Ace refund sound trigger
• RtB buffs tracker (shows normal, CTO, and KIR'd buffs)
• Unseen Blade tracker
  Fun:
• Ace max combo counter and Ace current combo counter
• KS Ticking damage taken

[vagrant jacinth]

does anyone have a weak aura that displays the number of mobs that are around you

[sudden fulcrum]

ya i use the eyes WA for that

[vestal notch]

type !wa in sub channel and there is one

[vagrant jacinth]

sweet, thanks

[mighty pivot]

the ears 🫠

[gaunt phoenix]

[late swallow]

[south glen]

very important to our spec

[covert kestrel]

and with a 1% chance that the bullets eventually come down and hit enemies throughout combat

[lime lake]

or an ally

[shy flume]

Ive crafted
Offhand sword is it better to have dagger oh ?

!oh

[ornate heath]

A dagger offhand is technically like 0.2% better than a slow weapon because it generates more Instant Poison procs. That is the only difference, Fatal Flourish proc rate is normalized to be unaffected by the change in attack speed. Note that item level or stats will matter more than this quirk, or you can simply use a slow weapon anyway for transmog.

[covert kestrel]

yeah but have you considered that transmogging a sword with a dagger is a 0.2% dps loss? think before you speak nyanmoroes, ill give you one warning

[proven ocean]

my guy whenevr outlaw is bottom dps he has to put it in the thumbnail

when its easily top 3 strongest specs out of all classes in ptr atm

outlaw is way too op from the numbers im seeing anyway

prob getting a nerf soon just a headsup so u guys dont really get disappointed

[upbeat tundra]

bait used to be believable

[sudden fulcrum]

i dunno if you can even call it bait with him

since everything he says is him trying to make people mad