outlaw

[vivid vessel]

well idk

i couldnt find one i liked

[gaunt phoenix]

So you can be one of the 7 people who one trick outlaw into CE or you will multispec for some bosses

[vivid vessel]

since i lost gooned

or goon

or gooning

idk which it was

goon prolly

was a banger one

solo

im reformed

idc what is good in raid anymore

i will not complain

i will just one bang raid in one month on sub

then i spend the entire farm playing outlaw

i just need outlaw to be good in m+ now

more chances this happens

so i have less chances of being disapointed

my moral is higher now

[gaunt phoenix]

i see

[glass mortar]

Outlaws just not a spec made to prog raid on the bleeding edge of this game

[empty elbow]

that's the plan for now hahaha, i changed jobs so my hof guild let me re-trial again

[vivid vessel]

its a new thing from tww

new me

[glass mortar]

Too much holding it back

And raid design never favors

[upper surge]

Can someone translate whatever the hell zac said in that wall of text up there

[lime lake]

Gooner

[glass mortar]

Tldr: Zacs given up on trying to prog as outlaw cause it always suks even when it's good so he will just play it perma in m+ and farm

[vivid vessel]

no

i have one less content where i care about outlaw tuning

cause i have given up on raiding as outlaw

in prog

so ye

i just care about m+ tuning solely now

[random stirrup]

recipe for insanity

[vivid vessel]

ok but before i cared about both

so i was disapointed x2 everytime

now its only 1

op no ?

[random stirrup]

still doesnt sound fun

[delicate seal]

Zac pov

[proven ocean]

Wrong picture

Correct picture

[upper surge]

Lmao

You really want that to be updated to outlaw rogue don't you

[vivid vessel]

I do ..

pwease uwuuuu

[gaunt phoenix]

he was accidentally banned

[proven ocean]

Soft bitch

[vivid vessel]

waitr what

what did he even say

i didnt see anything bad

[proven ocean]

Ban him

Hes advertising 24/7

[gaunt phoenix]

fake nitro link that was caught by filter

[vivid vessel]

hahahahaa

[glass mortar]

LOL

Banger

It's only fake cause solo probably nabbed it

Another free nitro stolen by the mods

[gaunt phoenix]

@leaden folio welcome back

[glass mortar]

[vivid vessel]

@leaden folio hi

[leaden folio]

hey

rickrolling dangerous on 2k25

[random stirrup]

ive heard you have connections allowing you to distribute free nitrous gas

[leaden folio]

🚨 rival hate him 🚨 only way to compet is ban 🚨 fake nitro to rickroll

[alpine scroll]

whats the best way to sim for m+ for outlaw? Dslice?

[gaunt phoenix]

slice is fine

or can dungeonroute

[alpine scroll]

ty

[gaunt phoenix]

outlaw handles whatever

[alpine scroll]

whats being ran for delve belt effect?

[gaunt phoenix]

Have to ask raidbots charged crystal vs critical chain

they are really close / depends on crit

[inner meadow]

what trinkets are good on ptr atm?

if anyone has tested iut

[gaunt phoenix]

umm

this one

[alpine scroll]

solo the man with the answers ❤️

[gaunt phoenix]

[glass timber]

what can cause me to randomly lose stealth?

doing nothing at all btw

[gaunt phoenix]

uhhhhh

[rustic moon]

wdym randomly

[gaunt phoenix]

random stealth breaks were a thing in like dragonflight

[leaden folio]

could be a lot of bug

[gaunt phoenix]

i dont recall many reports recently

[glass timber]

like, i stealth, and then i lose it after a couple seconds

[gaunt phoenix]

!stealthbreak

[ornate heath]

Stealth can break from:

• Evoker legendary buff expiring and bouncing back to the Evoker.
• Ominous Chromatic Essence trinket on buff gain
• Voice of the Silent Star when wearing it yourself
• Misterweaver soothing mist when talented into Unison
• Blossom of Amirdrassil (trinket) initial hot dropping/spreading
• Vicious brand (Signet trinket self damage)

[gaunt phoenix]

but these are old

[leaden folio]

monk heal statue, evoker legendary

oh ye

[vivid vessel]

killing spree debuff

[gaunt phoenix]

true

[copper radish]

Does the new cape have any power it gives us?

[leaden folio]

the griffon buff on rookery

[inner meadow]

do you know what 2nd trinket to use?

ara kara or pacemaker?

any good

[glass timber]

from taking damage? im not doing anything at all tho, like im just standing in raid waiting

[inner meadow]

or is there a better one

[gaunt phoenix]

just go pacemaker idk

can try the crown thing

the execute crown

[leaden folio]

the trinket from the event could also broke your stealth

[rustic moon]

your char must be cursed then

[gaunt phoenix]

maybe some mistweaver thing

[covert heart]

I know the buff from rookery can break stealth

[upper surge]

Oops found two small mistakes

[junior coral]

We thinking next week we will see some changes to rogue?

[gaunt phoenix]

yes !

[fair sparrow]

Fwiw last night I had my vanish break instantly

[gaunt phoenix]

KS reduced to 0.1 seconds

per cp

[fair sparrow]

Didn’t even get subterfuge from it

Never experienced that before

[gaunt phoenix]

that happens if you break vanish with a trinket

no subterfuge

[inner meadow]

are we dropping sleight of hand for loaded dice again on ptr?

[gaunt phoenix]

Yes

[rustic moon]

make it per 2 cp and we have a deal

[fair sparrow]

I mean I’ve played the same trinkets every week

[gaunt phoenix]

idk sometimes i accidentally break vanish with magnet

[proven ocean]

@vivid vessel osrs come play

[vivid vessel]

no

[proven ocean]

We can troll notrickz too

[glass timber]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTXERALzBWs

takes a little while but i can't see any buff or debuff happening.

It's on an alt so all gear is random lol

[proven ocean]

@hollow temple thiughts?

[fair sparrow]

Hmmm you know

It might’ve been magnet

[proven ocean]

Man

[glass timber]

but the timing of it is random

[vivid vessel]

ye this looks like skill issue

[hollow temple]

[proven ocean]

Miss u baby

[glass timber]

that's fair, could be my gaming chair aswell ngl

[proven ocean]

Guys

Is it demonic i woke up at 9:20 pm

[rustic moon]

no I don't think so

[proven ocean]

I slept at 1 pm

[trail plinth]

Is killing spree interruptible on ptr?

[proven ocean]

Idk is time different for diff countries or no

[rustic moon]

that's a healthy ammount of sleep

[proven ocean]

Ye but

Its 2.5 hrs pre midnight

Ngl i feel like a zombie

[rustic moon]

it's summer right?

is the sun still up?

not sure where you from exactly

[gaunt phoenix]

yeah it's a channel

[rustic moon]

but if the sun still up you gucci

[trail plinth]

Ew

[rustic moon]

wait what

[trail plinth]

I meant by like interrupts. Not by ourself

[rustic moon]

you can kick most channels, no?

[mighty pivot]

mediocre macro man

[rustic moon]

lol

[nimble sage]

was there some new rogue ptr update recently?

[digital rock]

Hey can someone here explain the weapon swap tech to me?

[covert kestrel]

#outlaw message

[junior coral]

Yo, who put me onto mandragoro and vlad from this channel lmao?

[digital rock]

❤️

[keen belfry]

no

[proven ocean]

yeah

they made 1 button rotation know which poisons to press

like 1 week ago

great recent change if u ask me

[sudden fulcrum]

HUGE

[lime lake]

finally one button poisons

[mighty pivot]

good change for console players

[frail veldt]

KS dot

oh youre literally doing nothing

idk

are you in the capital city?

are there people around you?

[vivid vessel]

he is in first boss room

he sent clip

[glass timber]

i evne have this that shows what abilities i use and theres nothing

[sudden fulcrum]

we saw this yesterday!

are you using an int dagger

[glass timber]

i haven't had this on my other rogue tho

[vivid vessel]

💀

[frail veldt]

I saw him gain a buff

and lose abuff

the exact frame he drops stealth

[sudden fulcrum]

yep it's probably int dagger from hallowfell event

happened to someone else too

[glass timber]

it fking is

[frail veldt]

lol

[glass timber]

are you kidding me

[lime lake]

[frail veldt]

kekw

[sudden fulcrum]

https://tenor.com/view/lol-michael-jordan-laugh-gif-4869658

[frail veldt]

gottem

[glass timber]

only did 3 bosses with it xD

[gaunt phoenix]

its gaining subterfuge

and losing stealth

press , and . to progress by frame

there's nothing from the ui that shows why he lost stealth

it's prob something from an ally that wont be caught without combatlog

[sudden fulcrum]

i already caught it solo

[gaunt phoenix]

oh nvm it was already caught

[sudden fulcrum]

catch up

[gaunt phoenix]

[sudden fulcrum]

[shy pecan]

just drink coffee and go nap

[stuck sparrow]

ngl how is this int dagger shit so common

do people not read

[glass timber]

see wep, equip wep ez pz

and it was a mace...

[upper surge]

Ok

https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveWoW/comments/1lvpvv5/comment/n27xo8u/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

@covert kestrel

Found you

Was trying to track down who it was 😂

[vivid vessel]

🥀

[red zinc]

🏄‍♂️ 🏄‍♀️

[vivid vessel]

its always the outlaw rogues

[red zinc]

Im cooked for another tier of raiding

gone for the first week and a half of the season

Aint gonna get accepted anywhere

[lime lake]

i'd accept you friend

https://tenor.com/view/kiss-gif-11816971814746635421

[covert kestrel]

Weran made me

[vital wave]

hey, is it me or we can't change weapon anymore in M+ ? I've tried to change weapons for boss/packs and it didnt work

[gaunt phoenix]

Cant swap gally weapon

rest should work

[vital wave]

so gally weapon in right hand

[gaunt phoenix]

ye

[glass mortar]

(or not at all since its not very gud)

but if its the best u got its the best u got

[gaunt phoenix]

you confused left and right

noob

He means right hand doesnt work which is true

[sudden fulcrum]

@lost slate i finally watched kpop demon hunters. you are right and it's pretty good

[gaunt phoenix]

nice

[vivid vessel]

should i watch it

[sudden fulcrum]

yeah it's cute

[vivid vessel]

ok you convinced me

[sudden fulcrum]

especially if you like kpop

[vivid vessel]

i hate kpop

but i love kpop

[sudden fulcrum]

unlucky

[vivid vessel]

im a big fan of some

certain songs

like i prolly have like 20 songs i love

ooga booga

rest i fucking hate

all garbage

[sudden fulcrum]

do you like this one https://youtu.be/phuiiNCxRMg

[gaunt phoenix]

kpop illegal here

[sudden fulcrum]

we are outlaws

[vivid vessel]

Yes

Big fan of aespa

My favorite group

And blackpink

Im a blackpink fan

[sudden fulcrum]

https://tenor.com/view/best-friends-step-brother-will-ferrell-gif-4030364

[vivid vessel]

What's the name

Blinks

I'm a blink uwu

[sudden fulcrum]

there's a song that sounds like a blackpink song in kpop demon hunters

[vivid vessel]

Solo

Are you a kpop enjoyer

You look like you would be

[craggy kelp]

hop on pubg were gambling aespa skins

[vivid vessel]

whats a aespa skin

[craggy kelp]

https://x.com/aespa_official/status/1942871375703863664?s=46&t=EIIPa9XHN4QaxkI34C_CDg

aespa (@aespa_official)

One shot go maximum damage

#aespa #æspa #에스파
#배틀그라운드 #펍지 #배그 #PUBGxaespa
@PUBG

X · Jul 9, 2025, 9:00 AM

[gusty cipher]

is the belt required for 11.2?

[glass mortar]

i was very confused by kpop dh

didnt like it at all

but i dont enjoy kpop and i for some reason expected it to be more then just a childrens film with kpop

so if u like kpop u will prob like it

every1 is saying the songs r gud

[naive river]

anyone just wish there was any sort of attention in patch notes for rogue.

[lime lake]

we already got the only change i want

[dawn talon]

i wasn't confused by it i just hated it

[lime lake]

finally one button rotation uses better poisons

[vivid vessel]

How do the skins look tho

[glass mortar]

yea i mean i didnt hate it it was just

[vivid vessel]

Are you just one of the girlies

[glass mortar]

a kids movie? like clearly for kids. with kpop

[craggy kelp]

yeah youre literally karina or winter or w/e

[glass mortar]

ig i got baited

[hybrid crown]

Wow is rated t for teen

[vivid vessel]

Wtfffff

Can I have that for wow

[gaunt phoenix]

not really

handful of songs

[vivid vessel]

Idk the names of the girls yet

Only group I know the names of the girls is blackpink

[hasty warren]

Which one is better for bandit ?

[craggy kelp]

im with zac. some kpop songs are cool, but the whole fandom/idol thing and some songs are crazy trash slop

[hasty warren]

I feel PS gives more dps and adds

[glass mortar]

well the hardest parts of OaB are all ST damage burns at this point so personally i think PC is kinda troll if ur progging

but probably barely matters at this point, PC more overall dps so u could go for that

no cto sucks eggs tho u couldnt pay me to play without it

[hasty warren]

y but I don"t knew what to cut

[glass mortar]

well its cto or ghostly but no ghostly is also gunna be awful

cto is probably the most realistic to drop for damage profile of the fight it just sucks hard to play without it

the variance of HO is more noticable

[dawn talon]

i like a lot of korean artpop and indie stuff

but holy shit

the commercial kpop and k-rap scenes are so fucking unlistenable to me idk why

the lyricism is just so cringeworthy

[vivid vessel]

blizzard: "why do players not play ptr"

also blizzard,

shut off the servers

right as testing is supposesd to start

[leaden folio]

10 bilion ping

[late swallow]

masterful gambit

[leaden folio]

make it impossible to play on it

never had any experience of ptr without lag

[strong halo]

@vivid vessel you streaming if servers come up?

[vivid vessel]

yep

raid testing

or so they said

[nova knot]

I'm thinking of rerolling to Outlaw from a dh/fdk. I like the fast playstyle of outlaw. What would you guys says is most important to track except for roll the bones buffs?

[violet ferry]

Your Killing Spree timing / position

[glass mortar]

cooldown on vanish/AR/RtB (especially this season)/kspree

basically the cds on all ur cd abilities because the cds are not real and u need to be casting them nearly on cd

buffwise to track there really isnt much. adr, u can track subterfuge but its not a huge deal anymore

RtB buffs of course, and how many Pistol shot charges u have

[lost slate]

RIGHT????

I'm so addicted to some of the songs

[nova knot]

Aiight thanks guys

[lost slate]

You're welcome homie

[vivid vessel]

np

[keen belfry]

surely ptr being down means more notes right

[unborn basin]

🤔

[alpine scroll]

anyone know why sometimes when i vanish my BTE isnt resetting in crackshot window? it resets once then is on cd for the rest of subterfuge

[copper radish]

Sure

[glass mortar]

did u actually gain subterfuge

if u break vanish/stealth with a trinket by accident (or have it macrod to ur spell) u do not gain subterfuge

[alpine scroll]

thank you

no further questions

[glass mortar]

🫡

[errant arrow]

The age old trinket fucked the vanish bug

[alpine scroll]

twas a trinket indeed

[late swallow]

oh cool! zac is streaming

[glass mortar]

yea i reported stream

[late swallow]

[vivid vessel]

???

[glass mortar]

streamer advirtised raid testing

but its just afk on a server screen?

idk

false advertisement af

[late swallow]

zzzzz content

[sudden fulcrum]

https://tenor.com/view/waynes-world-gif-9423140

[covert kestrel]

zac ddosd ptr to keep how op outlaw is under wraps

-ross 2025

[haughty lagoon]

Are there any Sims floating around d for outlaw next tier??

[sudden fulcrum]

rogue dead we're all goin prot pal https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/146683128411455488/1392592183374254193/image.png?ex=68701809&is=686ec689&hm=826c0114d40cfc727d4c55002ada0268602b6548b66c70b76d2711c4f9222456&

[glass mortar]

no sims yet they havent started tuning and it would only make people panic

i imagine outlaw (probably rogue in general) would look pretty bad if we had stacked sims across classes rn

[haughty lagoon]

I was just wondering if normaly don't care till a week or two out

[keen belfry]

numbas mean nothing rn

[covert kestrel]

gah damn thats the lowest res ks icon i ever did see

[sharp hinge]

is crackshot a new or old talent

[vivid vessel]

new from df s3

we didnt have uuh crackshot

(and ace kinda)

we only had kir, ho

in s1

s2

[keen belfry]

how often do we press KS on live

18 seconds?

ish?>

and on ptr its like 25ish?

[gaunt phoenix]

13.5 seconds

ptr is 25

[keen belfry]

oh damn

[gaunt phoenix]

who knew double the cd is double the interval

[subtle field]

Is the tuning of things, later on in the ptr? And current stage is working out the bigger things?

[gaunt phoenix]

ye

more raid testing before tuning

[subtle field]

ok nice 🙂 riad theme seems hella cool

Is it fun?

[glass mortar]

annoying to tune stuff while ur still redesigning some people

cause it might be wasted time etc

they tend to tune later in the cycle

[keen belfry]

i thought our double coup wouldnt make it 2 to 1 still

i thought we had more cdr but maybe wrong

[vivid vessel]

i think we have a bit more cdr

compared to tier set rn

i get more adr

@fathom bramble

you think the "imune" adds

eat coins

[inland acorn]

Knowing Blizzard, 100%

[lime lake]

dont the coins always hit your target

[hasty warren]

it's random no ?

[lime lake]

idk the tooltip says it hits your target but its a blizzard tooltip

so cant be trusted

[sudden fulcrum]

trust no one

[glass mortar]

which coins?

[lime lake]

im assuming fatebound tails

what other coins do we have

[glass mortar]

its a single target hit of ur current target? what does zac mean by adds eat it

[brisk canopy]

OAB coins. They’re my coins now

[glass mortar]

i thot he must be talking about some other coin

[vivid vessel]

i was talking about these

not coins actually hitting other targets

[glass mortar]

that aint a coin

[lime lake]

those arent coins but yeah they do get effected by immunes

so mines = get fucked

[radiant vessel]

how do you guys deal with KS on candle king

[vivid vessel]

ok well the second one is litteraly coin

but ok

[glass mortar]

if u see an immune pop up meaning a target has an hp bar so it should count for all these things

i mean it shouldnt, but 99% it does

u know what i mean

[lime lake]

if it was truly immune it might not, but basically every "immune" is just 99% dr

although i think mines are actual immunes and still count

[covert kestrel]

1-2cp or beg tank to move

[vivid vessel]

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxBcWb0yOQEmuruNWM4IT5wopr0QfqIssa?si=cKd85QIOny-_EFZF they dont have nameplates tho

thats hwy im like

unsure

how it would work

well i can just check the log

[lime lake]

lamp boss pog

[vital wave]

Is it normal that I loose my 7CP when I Adrenalish Rush before pull at pull ?

(in raid)

[vivid vessel]

raid pull clears cp

[vital wave]

so when do you AR then ? at first sec of the pull ?

[vivid vessel]

ye after pull

[vital wave]

Thanks Zac, love your streams btw ❤️

[vivid vessel]

ty cuh

[vital wave]

when will you do an outlaw guide @vivid vessel ? 👀

[vivid vessel]

the faq is here

no need for a guide

[vital wave]

@vivid vessel what's your feeling about PTR ? how is Fatebound & Trickster in M+

[fathom bramble]

They do

[sharp hinge]

are we still fucked on ptr

[vivid vessel]

💀

no way

you checked a log ?

[fathom bramble]

Im not sure if weird untargettable stuff does though

[vivid vessel]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/CJHR6MQXGZ3FKhTa?fight=last&type=damage-done&source=7 idk im clueless a bit

[dull geyser]

is 92% AR uptime good? Im very very new to this spec

[craggy barn]

yes

[dull geyser]

thanks dude

[hasty warren]

OMG FINALY BANDIT DOWN

green parse kek

[vestal notch]

boss down thats what matters

gz

[hasty warren]

174 pulls

I'm free

[sharp hinge]

@vivid vessel have you played with any warriors on ptr?

[nimble sage]

did anyone here come from playing solely ranged to outlaw rogue and how did you do in raids and such? to me it feels like a very steep hill to get back to the same "level" i can perform as a ranged now as a melee

[keen belfry]

me

[quaint mauve]

it just gets getting used to, you have to move more. more repetition

i played hunter for a bit before this

and it’s way harder

[nimble sage]

melee is way harder, right?

[keen belfry]

yes and no

but normally, yes

there are plenty examples where its easier to dps as melee, just more where its the opposite

[lime lake]

they make sure to make one fight per tier where ranged have to do mechanics

[nimble sage]

Im trying to figure out if it's worth giving melee a try for next season, I always get the feeling of bad performance when Im playing melee and end up quitting because I dont feel like Im good enough, but would you guys say that you've reached the point where it doesn't matter if you play melee or ranged, you perform equally?

[keen belfry]

yuh

takes time

[vivid vessel]

I dont play casters cause its too boring and easy

[keen belfry]

i think you need to greed more and die more

and learn da hard wae

[quaint mauve]

trueeee

[nimble sage]

i have a big ego and e-penis mindset which makes me wanna quit when i dont see myself at the top 3 dps all the time, it's a terrible trait but dang

might just have to commit to learning melee properly and try for next season

[sharp hinge]

https://tenor.com/view/south-park-penis-asia-gif-10220177

[nimble sage]

feeling frfr

[keen belfry]

learn to blame others instead of yourself

[nimble sage]

"you have left the group"

[sharp hinge]

@zac you never replied 😦 i though we were brothers from other mothers

[keen belfry]

draco i cant speak for zac but

i havent played ptr so i cant answer your questions either

sorry

[vivid vessel]

idk

ye a few keys

so

[sharp hinge]

did you do better than either arms or fury?

[vivid vessel]

idk

i played like day 1

no idea

[sharp hinge]

😦

we need you to be our eyes and ears!

[nimble sage]

btw do we know if the new ks is coming 12th august or a week before?

[lime lake]

it'll be patch release

so the 5th

[nimble sage]

cool

[quaint mauve]

it’s never my fault

[gritty hamlet]

I've been doing outlaw in delves and I waste so many resources cause of resets and CP sometimes feeling random

And I know I'm not lining up charged combo points with coup right

[glass mortar]

u dont try to line supercharger up with anything

but yes when u can restealth every mob u do tend to waste alot of resources

it doesnt rlly matter tho, crackshot is ur highest damage window period and most of those resources r meant to get u back to it asap

[gritty hamlet]

But it's blasting still cause Twilight dev, and other passive effects just blast in delves hah

I'd play sin but I'm overly relying on permanent tricks on Brann hah

[upper surge]

What an odd season

[glass mortar]

yee difficulty curve was abit strange

[craggy kelp]

rookery is actually so ass

[gritty hamlet]

An untested mythic boss with a different set of mechanics was a gamble and they didn't want it to be too hard

But when a fights challenge is just solving the initial puzzle over any type of stress it's gonna fall over

Because just like routing someone else will do it

[gritty hamlet]

Rookery is fun as a loot key. So fast on 12s

[fathom bramble]

fate intertwined is definitely not going on them. the actual coins do such variable damage it's hard to tell for sure, but I don't think they are being reduced

[gritty hamlet]

I feel so bad that I still don't like roll the bones

[tender wedge]

Why don’t you like about it? Would be nice if it did some direct damage maybe so it felt meatier but I dunno how much it’d hurt if I threw some dice at you

[glass mortar]

alot of people who dont like it connect outlaws normally higher end variance with it

[gritty hamlet]

The RNG, the lack of clarity on effects, the fact you can mess up by refreshing

[glass mortar]

even tho most of our variance has come from procs other then RtB, especially over the last couple expacs

[gritty hamlet]

I think the fact they keep making matching more common with talents and tiers shows an issue that they could just get rid of haha

[torpid fiber]

I like rtb because it provides gameplay variance

[gritty hamlet]

Maybe if the game explained it more clearly, made it more obvious when you have 4-5 buffs and really don't want to reset them, etc.

[torpid fiber]

I think it's a reasonable complaint that it needs a wa

[frail veldt]

yes

gameplay variance >>>>>>>>>>>>> dps variance

[fathom bramble]

RTB tooltip needs to have waaay more information in it

[frail veldt]

people need to understand that

[glass mortar]

for how core it is to outlaw, even if the gameplay variance it provides is generally quite minor

[frail veldt]

and I dont think they do

[glass mortar]

the game is very bad at providing info about it

idd

[frail veldt]

dps variance that you cannot control SUUUUUUUUUUUUCKS

[glass mortar]

thats just blizzard mo tho

so much shit in this game is like that

[gritty hamlet]

even with the CD manager and my buffs right under my character frame it's hard to tell when I have 5 buffs or what each does.

[frail veldt]

gameplay variance that you have to react to feels great

[glass mortar]

they have been slowly working on it, especially this expac

[frail veldt]

esp when you are rewarded with more dps by adapting to the variance quickly

[torpid fiber]

Dps variance is awful as fuck but gameplay variance rocks so much

[frail veldt]

that is what makes outlaw fun

imo

[gritty hamlet]

Mostly outlaw just feels horrible when you don't have certain buffs like the extra CPs

[glass mortar]

only buffs u feel are broadside and SnC and to a very minor degree TB

[frail veldt]

yeah blizzard could definitely buff the gameplay of the "bad buffs" a little

[fathom bramble]

it's definitely frustrating for a beginner, but bad tooltips are definitely not a good enough reason to axe a spell

[torpid fiber]

This is a design issue for different reasons imo; the problem isn't rtb but rather too many combo points

[glass mortar]

RP used to have gameplay but doesnt anymore

[frail veldt]

it will next season again

cuz fatebound is back for ST

[glass mortar]

idk id like it to provide a slight layer to gameplay based on buffs but u dont want it to get to overwhelming because then it feels real bad if u dont get specific buffs

[frail veldt]

and RP is a vanish condition for fatebound still

right?

[glass mortar]

ugh

[frail veldt]

yeah I know

I hate it too

[glass mortar]

yea i guess it is

not a fun interaction imo

[frail veldt]

same

[glass mortar]

i like the way trickster uses vanish way better

fatebounds rules r cringe

the supercharge one is fine

feels natural

the RP one tho

[gritty hamlet]

it's just not a fun source of randomness to me, then you got stuff like this seasons 4p

[fathom bramble]

that's a seperate issue from everything you just said about the god awful display of RTB info though

[frail veldt]

so you dont like rotational variety based on a random source?

isnt that the core of all proc related specs

[glass mortar]

i dont like this seasons tier either fwiw

and it does focus more of our variance back into RtB

normally its less

[gritty hamlet]

I like procs I can react to that are obvious when I want to react to like Lava Burst resets for Farseer ele.

Or hot hands on enh

[frail veldt]

wack a mole specs

outlaw is just a more complex version of that

I mean with good enough WAs youc an make it a wack a mole spec tbh

[gritty hamlet]

RTBs is obscure, misleading, and just too easy to mess up.

[frail veldt]

I mean thats subjective

[gritty hamlet]

And I don't think WAs should be mandatory to not mess up like they are with Outlaw and Arcane.

[frail veldt]

ive played wack a mole specs and they get boring too quick imo

[fathom bramble]

those are all tooltip problems though

[torpid fiber]

RtB is awfully explained but I don't think it's misleading

[fathom bramble]

the fact that you need outside sources to eeven fully understand what RTB is doing

[torpid fiber]

You'd find that everyone here agrees

[covert kestrel]

there is a single buff (i guess two with fatebound) that affects your rotation

[frail veldt]

RTB is overly complex and not intuitive how you should change your rot5ation based on the buffs

[daring oxide]

this, and the container stuff not being explained in tooltips, honestly what were they thinking

[torpid fiber]

But the solution is to make RtB better communicated

[frail veldt]

it literally requires theory crafting to react to optimally

and I understand that complaint

[glass mortar]

container stuff needs to go imo

or codify it better

[frail veldt]

but I still think that is subjective

[glass mortar]

i just want CtO to never go away tho

CtO buffs should last till they expire

or u roll that buff

[fathom bramble]

to be fair the entirety of the container mechanics is probably a bug lol

so it's of course not in the tooltip

[frail veldt]

im not sure its a "bug"

but more like an unintended feature

I guess thats just semantics lol

[fathom bramble]

yeah a bit

[daring oxide]

if its a bug thats understandable, considering the history regarding outlaw bugs

[fathom bramble]

either way I doubt it was a planned way for RTB to function

[frail veldt]

sure

[daring oxide]

im just happy

that killing spree is no longer teleporting me

legit

even though its not perfect

better than the shit we going through right now

[fathom bramble]

yeah

[gritty hamlet]

maybe they could make it better, but I personally enjoy RTB being a way to get charged CPs vs the actual buffs it applies.

at least charged CPs are something I can tell are there easily.

[frail veldt]

supercharger isnt interactive though

so without the buffs rtb just becomes ER

[stuck patrol]

I like this idea.

I also came up with this cool idea: what if they like removed UHUH, and they like, made this talent where Adr lasts longer, and you have a chance when using abilities to proc Adr for a shorter duration

[daring oxide]

I think rogue tuning is coming next week

like

[frail veldt]

and thats pretty stale tbh

[daring oxide]

99% sure

[stuck patrol]

Crazy idea amirite

[frail veldt]

they probably wanted that but didnt know how to do it lol

[glass mortar]

eh

[daring oxide]

no i love UHUH pls no

[glass mortar]

rng ar procs r whatever

ar needs to be up for every vanish tho

as long as crackshot exists

if we replace uhuh it needs to be in a form where u get AR for vanish

[stuck patrol]

UHUH is one of the biggest problems with the spec

[glass mortar]

and im happy

idc if AR is up outside those windows

[fathom bramble]

the tierset that CTO copied use to reroll your CTO buffs into new random buffs when you rerolled

and that just didn't make it into the conduit for some reason

[ripe ibex]

@gritty hamlet you are just unexperienced play more and i dont think you will feel the same way

[frail veldt]

I mean its a fair take

rtb is definitely a subjective thing

its not wrong to dislike it

[torpid fiber]

I did not like rtb in bfa/legion

[frail veldt]

and the fact that you need a ton of WA support to correctly play around it is definitely not a great thing

[gritty hamlet]

I haven't really liked RTB ever since they added it

[ripe ibex]

why

[gritty hamlet]

Going back to Legion, but it's the only rogue spec that's non dagger

[frail veldt]

why is needing a WA to do a core part of your spec an issue?

I feel like that doesnt need explaining

[fathom bramble]

RTB has gone through so many different versions there's no way you disliked all of them

[torpid fiber]

I think sl rtb is great though because unlike before then it's not miserable to get unlucky

[ripe ibex]

what do you need a wa for

[fathom bramble]

unless the core idea of a spell having a random output is just a no go

[ripe ibex]

just to show what buffs you have?

[fathom bramble]

I mean you don't technically need a WA to use RTB optimally

[ripe ibex]

yeah like everything has random procs i dont see how its any different

[fathom bramble]

it's just a lot easier to not be tracking the source of each buff manually

[ripe ibex]

i think absolutely every spec in this game requires wa

[frail veldt]

as HO yeah thats all you need but as KiR you really kinda need the container buff logic to play it correctly

[ripe ibex]

i do not see how outlaw is any different

[frail veldt]

not to the extent of outlaw

at all

you should play more specs lol

[ripe ibex]

i disagree

[fathom bramble]

I would argue most specs can be

[frail veldt]

there is a huge variance in WA requirements for specs

and how they impact your dps

[fathom bramble]

Like you have acceptable options in the base ui now

[ripe ibex]

if you are playing without wa you are bad

no matter what spec you are playing

[frail veldt]

thats not true at all

horrible take

[ripe ibex]

other than tanks

[frail veldt]

you need to play other specs

ret can be played with 0 was

[ripe ibex]

i’ve played ret

[frail veldt]

marks even has pretty good support built into default aciton bars

can play that without was

spriest too

can pretty much use nothing if you want

[ripe ibex]

there is zero chance you could play it 100% optimally without weakauras???

[frail veldt]

just good debuff tracking on nameplates

[fathom bramble]

the only thing we even do with WAs that is strictly WA only and cannot be done with the base ui is display RTB buff source with colored borders

[frail veldt]

I never said this

[fathom bramble]

something you don't really even need for HO

[frail veldt]

I said that the impact of not using WAs is HIGHLY variant between specs

some spces are impacted significantly more than others

[ripe ibex]

i honestly think

outlaw is on the lower end of that

[frail veldt]

so you do think they vary

[ripe ibex]

of needed WAs

no i think they do for sure

[frail veldt]

well you didnt before

you legit said "i disagree" when I said that

lololol

[ripe ibex]

that’s not true

i said

[frail veldt]

how are you gona do container logic as KiR without a wa

how are you even gona see what buffs you have

how are you gona track unseen blade

[ripe ibex]

it doesn’t matter because you can not play any spec in this game optimally without WAs

[frail veldt]

thats not relevant

no ones saying you can

[ripe ibex]

than what’s the point

[ripe ibex]

outlaw doesn’t need them any more than any other spec

[frail veldt]

I think thats incorrect

I think you would lose more dps playing outlaw without WAs than you would playing ret/marks/ or spriest

significantly

[ripe ibex]

that may be true for those 3 specs

[frail veldt]

frost mage too

destro lock too

[glass mortar]

well he did say for some and not for others

idk if we are the most WA reliant

[frail veldt]

maybe not demo they need to track some things

BM for sure you can play without WAs

[glass mortar]

there are certainly a ton that are not very tho

[frail veldt]

survival kind of as well

[gritty hamlet]

I think you can play most specs plenty well using in game tools outside of Arcane and 1-2 others. Outlaw you just mess up without them. It's hard to mess up Totemic Enh for example

[frail veldt]

yeah arcane is hard without was

lots of buffs to track

ele sham is pretty straight forward too

at least it was last time I played it theyve reworked it so much idk anymore

lets see what else

[gritty hamlet]

Everything important for Demo you can track with in-game tools now

[frail veldt]

fury war

[ripe ibex]

was there not a chinese outlaw that played with zero WAs back in sl

and was like r1

[frail veldt]

how do you track tyrant value?

isnt it some complex formula based on active pets

[ripe ibex]

na

it’s pretty simple

[frail veldt]

yeah I havent played it since they reworked tyrant tbh

[gritty hamlet]

Just line up with CDs and you're like 95% of the way there

[frail veldt]

in DF it was based on total pet HP

[ripe ibex]

i swear that spec is easier than boomkin

[frail veldt]

so it was weird

oh boomkins another you can totally play without any was

again I think outlaw is definitely on the side of losing more dps lolol

[random stirrup]

would be a bit annoying looking for starlord but ya

[frail veldt]

seems pretty evident

[dawn talon]

nether portal my beloved

we miss you

[ripe ibex]

all i’m saying is you couldn’t not play any spec optimally without WAs so what’s the point in saying one spec is slightly more reliant on them

[gritty hamlet]

Starlord can be tracked with the CD manager

[frail veldt]

because the dependence on it is literlaly what the person was complaining about

some specs suffer more

and feel more "forced" to use them

thats literally the issue at hand

is how severe it is

[ripe ibex]

outlaw is on the lower end of that spectrum

[frail veldt]

again I entirely disagree haha

what is more dependent on was than outlaw

I couldnt even name a spec

[late swallow]

You’re arguing with the literal semantics god

There’s no winning btw

Just hit him with a “haha I guess” and move on bro

[covert heart]

As someone as played like every spec. Id be horrible at this spec without rtb weak auras and shit while others ill be just fine

[ripe ibex]

i have never once used base ui i have no idea what you can track with base ui

[frail veldt]

^

[frail veldt]

lol then how can you take a stance

brother

jfc

[random stirrup]

mewo is right here tho

[frail veldt]

you just hit me with the "I literally have no evidence for my opinion"

[frail veldt]

whoa whoa are you implying im usually not?

[ripe ibex]

i mean bro i’ve played the game a good amount

[covert heart]

Like I think maybe arcane is the only spec I prob need a ton of shit for

[ripe ibex]

and a good amount of specs

outlaw is just not that different

[frail veldt]

but if youve never played with the base ui how can you say where outlaw is on the spectrum of requiring was????

[random stirrup]

im saying somnius suggested you weren't

[ripe ibex]

and outlaw is far less random than people think

[frail veldt]

As someone who makes their own WA package for every spec I play

[covert heart]

Id hard disagree but I have a feeling this would be a waste of time

And just move on with my life

[frail veldt]

outlaw by FAR has the most complex was of all the specs ive played

which is almost every class except monk

arcane mage is also pretty complex

since TWW

[mighty pivot]

I was about to ask if you play only outlaw and 9 ret alts

[covert heart]

I can think of other specs other than this and arcane I need shit for

[ripe ibex]

bro

outlaw is not complex

it does not require complex WAs ANY MORE THAN ANY OTHER SPEC

[covert heart]

Bruh peeps consider this one of the hardest specs in the game what are on you about

[gritty hamlet]

It's just hard to track and understand in game

[unborn basin]

just point and shoot

easy

[snow hill]

Okay, not complex, overwhelming.

[frail veldt]

I thought you said all specs cant be played optimally without WAs

[ripe ibex]

i think this just comes form inexperience

[mighty pivot]

difficulty doesn't come exclusively from complexity

[ripe ibex]

r u a drone

[covert heart]

I think he just argues to argue which seems to be a theme so I am good haha

[frail veldt]

just a chat bot

[ripe ibex]

there i fixed it

[frail veldt]

trained on questioning bad takes

[gritty hamlet]

You can get used to anything. Doesn't make it automatically fine. Just cause you build up callouses to get used to the odd parts doesn't stop it from being opaque and confusing without outside tools and guides.

[trail plinth]

I think enhance gives us a run for our money with wa shenanigans

[covert heart]

Id agree with enhance as well

[nova knot]

Maybe a stupid question but how do you get combo points to start RtB at the start of a dungeon or a raid boss before entering combat? Except for a dmg dummie

[frail veldt]

it doesnt cost cps

it free

!prepull

damn

[mighty pivot]

!prekey

[trail plinth]

But if you blade flurry into stealth, you can adrenaline rush for max combo points and stealth doesn’t consume duration from adr

[frail veldt]

bot down maybe

[trail plinth]

So you can start aoe blasting

[nova knot]

Oh shit I've been blind

[frail veldt]

it used to cost cps

in bfa I believe

[trail plinth]

And blade flurry doesn’t lose duration during adr. So stealth good

[unborn basin]

feels good when you roll the hotsix

[snow hill]

100%

[unborn basin]

then you blast

[nova knot]

So you can roll without combo points

My god

[gritty hamlet]

Maybe for Stormbringer but you can get by with just your hot buttons for Totemic. The CD manager is nice but not huge

[keen belfry]

@ripe ibex focus up im reading bad takes rn

[ripe ibex]

no shot

[keen belfry]

focus.

[mighty pivot]

why do you have skittles in your head

[frail veldt]

I mean it has to differ somewhat

things are almost never exactly equal

also outlaw just as a spec aside from WAs is more punishing to mistakes than most specs

so inherently it has that going for it in the argument of WA dependency

[keen belfry]

whta complex WAs even exist in wow?

[frail veldt]

since obv we can probably agree that WAs reduce mistakes

[nova knot]

Learned something new. Thanks friendo

[keen belfry]

other than the RTB one

[snow hill]

I'm glad some people can spend hours each week on the training dummy. I'm only able to get about 6-10 hours of play in a week and half of that is Mythic raiding. Rest is just doing delves n shit. I'm basically fucked once I can't use hekili anymore.

[keen belfry]

i cant think of complex WAs

[frail veldt]

yw

[random stirrup]

the unseen blade one is kind of complex right

[frail veldt]

I mean just conditional WAs probably

[nova knot]

[ripe ibex]

fury slayer execute conditions

[frail veldt]

like some people do things like PS will glow if youre at under 4 cps but if you have broadside itll only glow at under 2 or whatever

essentially programming in the builder conditions

instead of just moving the buffs to a central location and looking at them yourself

[trail plinth]

Without weakauras I’ll just forget to roll all the time

I play monk btw

[keen belfry]

im very much of the stance that outlaw requires more WAs than every other spec ive played

ive played a bunch of specs

rtb contributes to most of that

[gritty hamlet]

If sub didn't require a dagger main hand I'd probably never touch Outlaw haha

[frail veldt]

outlaw just has a dynamic rotation so it requires a lot of checking of stuff which inherently leads to WA dependency

since blizz's defualt method of trakcing buffs is piss

[keen belfry]

yeah, and when i say "requires WA" i mean to play the spec how people like us think about how a spec should be played

[gritty hamlet]

The new CD manager isn't bad at all but it's basically basically WAs with buff boxes and timer bars

[hollow temple]

maind hand?

[covert heart]

Yea like the rtb conditions are enough where you can just fuck yourself real bad

[frail veldt]

yeah I was mostly taking the stance that outlaw would lose more % of their dps by not running WAs than other specs

[keen belfry]

i dont think any spec in the game requires WA, a t a low level

[mighty pivot]

the builtin cd tracker is okay-ish for basic outlaw gameplay

[frail veldt]

that was my definition of "depends on was"

[keen belfry]

id say i agree with this

arcane would struggle

kinda

meh

[frail veldt]

yeah I only messed with it a little it seemed decent

[frail veldt]

yeah I think that ones also on the same side of the spectrum as outlaw

[gritty hamlet]

But RTB at its core is hard to understand even if you take the time to read each buff tooltip when you get them.

[frail veldt]

for sure

[covert heart]

I played outlaw without alot of these weak auras and gave up then came back and got em. Made more sense to me haha

[frail veldt]

when my budyd was starting to play outlaw

he was like "how do you track your rtb buffs"

and I gave him the wa

and he wa slike "no but how do you know what they all do?"

and I was like OH

yeah you just memorize all 6 buffs

and how they impact your rotationi

🙂

easy

[nova knot]

Oh noes

[keen belfry]

dont wox and banshers play with 0 WAs and are nearly 4k

[frail veldt]

this was when we were fatebgound too

and you were watching for RP and BS more closely

[covert heart]

I think wox plays with a good amount

[nova knot]

I can't memorise my pin code to my phone even

[frail veldt]

and when rtb condition depended on how "good" your buffs were lol

[covert heart]

Banshers plays hunter so you don't need em haha

[wintry solar]

5482

[gritty hamlet]

You can track the buffs now with the default CD manager but it still is hard to intuitively know when to not refresh. Most specs are pretty intuitive how to play and outlaw just isn't.

[keen belfry]

i meant nox

[random stirrup]

he has the zac rtb one at least last i saw

[keen belfry]

shit

not wox

nox

[torpid fiber]

honestly I forgot about this part of learning the spec it was so long ago LMAO

[wintry solar]

Gm changes ever expac

Smh

[mighty pivot]

monksea also uses minimal WAs

[covert kestrel]

I still don't really know what the 3 'bad' ones do, just RP BS and TB

[covert heart]

Most of the weak auras I have for outlaw is 2 scream at me when I need to kir or rtb

If I didnt have that id be fucked

If they want to remove weak auras they need to change this spec a tad

[mighty pivot]

they will not remove WAs

[covert heart]

They been talking about it. I don't believe em but you never know

[keen belfry]

energy regen, ss proc chance, and bf dmg + dmg

grand melee is very good in keys

[covert heart]

They want to remove wa dependency on fights mostly though

[mighty pivot]

no they said they will just limit them

but to what extent they haven't decided

[covert kestrel]

I just don't know which is which, although gm is the bf one I guess

[gritty hamlet]

Basically if it interacts with you or your auras in combat it will go away

[mighty pivot]

I would expect that self buffs are among the most safe features of a WA

[covert heart]

Prob because rhey wouldnt want to have to redesign specs haha

[keen belfry]

buried treasure is energy regen (basically 0.0% dps), skull n crossbones or something is ss proc chance

[covert kestrel]

Nah can't waste brain cells on that

They're just shit buff 1 and 2

[keen belfry]

focus up

[gritty hamlet]

A few of the interviews basically said they'd remove all combat interactions with addons

[keen belfry]

i dont mind skull n crossbones for vibes

[covert heart]

I am suprised they have had real interview usually its about bullshit for player housing haha

[ripe ibex]

low key i wait for skull n crossbones in st

[frail veldt]

idk it was hard to tell

[proven ocean]

u sound like awang rn

stop

[frail veldt]

ion seemed to imply they arent trying to fight a war on addons

and thye are trying to improve the game to not "require" addons

[ripe ibex]

na awang is a drone now

[frail veldt]

not that they explicitly want to ban addons

[tepid skiff]

did we get buffed yet

or is it still bricked

[proven ocean]

bricked out the wazoo

[hollow temple]

🧱

[tepid skiff]

nice

[keen belfry]

im good take guy right?

[gritty hamlet]

Honestly I would prefer a Demonsoul like thing where RTB enhances a certain number of your abilities to do something extra

[proven ocean]

ye ofcourse u are awang

no doubts

[ripe ibex]

i HATE awang now

[frail veldt]

this guy

[keen belfry]

ty zeross

[frail veldt]

the bug abuser

[proven ocean]

np

[frail veldt]

awang

[keen belfry]

GRRRR CHEATER ALERT

[fresh acorn]

!wa

[ripe ibex]

that’s what it does

[frail veldt]

quick everyone report him

[proven ocean]

bug abuser king right here mewo report me harder

[frail veldt]

all banned

abusing extra rtb buffs

[ripe ibex]

anyone wanna hit some critters later?

[frail veldt]

for 20% dps

smh my head

[proven ocean]

i never abused the critter bug

but

[cold jewel]

doesn't james use default ui for outlaw?

[proven ocean]

if i had the chance

[hollow temple]

Class packs:

• Guy's - Afenar's Edit Luxthos Edit
• Zac's Group Devlin
  Utilities:
• Combo Point Standalone
• Last GCD in Crackshot window / Subterfuge timer
• Ace refund sound trigger
• RtB buffs tracker (shows normal, CTO, and KIR'd buffs)
• Unseen Blade tracker
  Fun:
• Ace max combo counter and Ace current combo counter
• KS Ticking damage taken

[proven ocean]

i'd abuse the shit out of it

[fresh acorn]

whats the weakaura command

[cold jewel]

just because it's hard doesnt mean it cant be done

[fresh acorn]

thanks goat

[frail veldt]

no he has hidden was

[tepid skiff]

no

[frail veldt]

that pop up

[proven ocean]

sad i wasn't there to enjoy the 20 cp cdr

on each finisher

[frail veldt]

so it looks clean

[proven ocean]

or 20 sec cdr

[cold jewel]

oh i actually didnt know that

[frail veldt]

its misleading though

[cold jewel]

but i also haven't seen him play rogue in a while

[mighty pivot]

good bot

[tepid skiff]

logging in when theres tuning next week

[keen belfry]

@tepid skiff is dk player

[proven ocean]

:pepeSmile:

[proven ocean]

u better stream cuh

or else

the outlaw ghost will haunt you at night

[tepid skiff]

guarantee u im worse than @keen belfry now

[hollow temple]

twist: he streams, but streams osrs

[ripe ibex]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1291546840394629193/1379662662576898090/chrome_eZVidimSB3.gif

[hollow temple]

[covert kestrel]

Is jpc done with harvard

[proven ocean]

everyone's washed up after stopping for a while

takes 2-3 weeks to get back into the game fully

its all muscle memory

[tepid skiff]

ya just like riding a bike

[keen belfry]

its ok man, we all become washed eventually

[ripe ibex]

awang is carried by economics

[proven ocean]

[ripe ibex]

i’m tired of pretending

[keen belfry]

im a raid buff merchant man

[proven ocean]

im jpc's successor in osrs

[tepid skiff]

LOL this is such an insane magic method

never actually seen anyone do it but i heard about it

[proven ocean]

400k xp/hr btw

its isnane

[stuck patrol]

Is this classic WoW

[proven ocean]

ye classic wow

[stuck patrol]

That's crazy

[proven ocean]

its classic wow but