time spent in ks is "wasted" after all
#outlaw
tepid viper
U mean 3-7 18s, hmm i see
Thats a bummer but i get it
So i just need to endure and get lucky
edgy phoenix
yes or find some friends
glass mortar
i just wanna say my quick math is impeccable
i guessed the moment we had these kspree numbers it would be a dps gain to cancel
errant quarry
So i just need to endure and get lucky
Or run your own key more instead of trying to queue into runs
glass mortar
thought it would be like 2% tho so i guess i overshot abit
would have been 2%+ with old kspree cd probably 😠
digital linden
join a guild and it doesnt get easier
covert kestrel
Finding friends in wow is really hard
If you remove your anime prof pic you get +10 rating to your friendIO
sudden fulcrum
Finding friends in wow is really hard
you need to stack Charisma
tepid viper
If you remove your anime prof pic you get +10 rating to your friendIO
but you have an anime banner yourself!
fallow hinge
imagine having an anime banner smh my head
sudden fulcrum
yeah that's a 
fallow hinge
also maybe fronteir's speaking from experience
stiff hawk
but you have an anime banner yourself!
Neither does he have friends
fallow hinge
Tira are u ma fren
dull sage
Does anyone happen to have the weakaura that announces to your party how much damage your killing spree staggers
stiff hawk
Yes
gaunt phoenix
!wa
ornate heathBOT
Class packs:
Guy's - Afenar's Edit 
Luxthos Edit
Zac's Group 
Devlin
Utilities:
Combo Point Standalone
Last GCD in Crackshot window / Subterfuge timer
Ace refund sound trigger
RtB buffs tracker (shows normal, CTO, and KIR'd buffs)
Unseen Blade tracker
Fun:
Ace max combo counter and Ace current combo counter
KS Ticking damage taken
dull sage
🐐 ty
covert kestrel
but you have an anime banner yourself!
Mumen rider transcends anime
covert kestrel
Neither does he have friends
fallow hinge
<:mad:1275456001386217502>
wanna be ma fren too?
vivid vessel
!wa
Why is it a gain to cancel new ks but not a gain to send old ks at 1 cp
Thoughts
mighty pivot
cp gen is good?
fallow hinge
Why is it a gain to cancel new ks but not a gain to send old ks at 1 cp
magic
vivid vessel
It's not like they removed value from the spell damage to shift it into the cp gen tho
It's just the same damage if not more
- cp gen
mighty pivot
oh you said old ks at 1 cp
vivid vessel
So why does it change suddenly
mighty pivot
hm
vivid vessel
Like in general what this says is that casting isn't worth it the damage
It's worth it the cp gen
(+ damage)
But not damage only
vivid vessel
True
glass mortar
energy cost + CP cost (no refund if u send on 1 cp, or very low chance anyway) + cdr per gcd
keeping kspree going when u could cancel it is costly for cdr/gcd but so is sending a 1 cp kspree
nimble sage
is there any good WA that alert when i should reroll my buffs? Sometimes I forget to reroll and sometimes I accidentally reroll when I got 5 (Im new to outlaw)
glass mortar
on live i imagine ud cancel kspree after 1-2 gcd if u could
but the only way to shorten it is to send it with no resources which makes it even worse then the "cast time"
covert kestrel
is there any good WA that alert when i should reroll my buffs? Sometimes I forge...
There are but better just to have the buffs in front of you and learn the muscle memory of tracking the buffs and knowing the rules
Are you using one of the recommended weakaura packs?
nimble sage
I dont believe I am
mighty pivot
True
actually the damage rate of it doesn't matter because they also buffed its damage by 25% when they increased the duration by 25%
nimble sage
Are you using one of the recommended weakaura packs?
where may i fin d these?
covert kestrel
where may i fin d these?
!wa
ornate heathBOT
Class packs:
- Guy's - Afenar's Edit Luxthos Edit
- Zac's Group Devlin
Utilities: - Combo Point Standalone
- Last GCD in Crackshot window / Subterfuge timer
- Ace refund sound trigger
- RtB buffs tracker (shows normal, CTO, and KIR'd buffs)
- Unseen Blade tracker
Fun: - Ace max combo counter and Ace current combo counter
- KS Ticking damage taken
covert kestrel
The class packs are all in one good for the spec, try em out to see which you like the most
nimble sage
I am using Hijack's atm but I will check these out
gaunt phoenix
think you need to ks at 3cp for the DPET to match a normal ks
On live
at 1-2cp, ks is over before the gcd ends
so i assume it's just dpet and restless
covert kestrel
I am using Hijack's atm but I will check these out
These will be a lot more useful for outlaw than hijack imo, the general class ones are not great at some of the specific rules that we need for our class
I like devlin and used it for a long time and now use zacs 🙂
nimble sage
I see, I liked Devlin's the most so I will try it out
Zacs looks nice but I dislike the wide format for the icons, prefer squares
covert kestrel
Yeah that's fair
gaunt phoenix
most people skirt around the idea of a weakaura just telling you the rules so you dont think about it
vivid vessel
Zacs looks nice but I dislike the wide format for the icons, prefer squares
wtf !
nimble sage
oh shit
covert kestrel
most people skirt around the idea of a weakaura just telling you the rules so yo...
Plus that means you're at the whim of the wa author to keep up with the rules
nimble sage
zac's would be 10/10 if there is an option to make them all square!
covert kestrel
zac's would be 10/10 if there is an option to make them all square!
You can prob pretty easily change the general icon size to make them match the x/y value you want? Idk havent tried
gaunt phoenix
can probably manually make the icons square in 8 minutes
if there is not some global adjustment
nimble sage
problem is not making them square but to keep the correct spacing
vivid vessel
Well you extend them down
So that won't be an issue
It would take me 5 sec to make them square
Ok say 2 min
sudden fulcrum
extend THIS
vivid vessel
It's in code tho, very easy, when you select the group you have a grow function
If you open it you have some variables that are the size etc
haughty moat
poor guy, he just wanted a rtb weakaura and is now rebuilding his whole UI 
gaunt phoenix
Ion is taking notes
keen belfry
Zacs looks nice but I dislike the wide format for the icons, prefer squares
Cook him king
glass mortar
zacs WA is literally the wideputin of WA
it looks like someone took a awesome sexy WA then pancaked it like a loony toons character
💅
nimble sage
it's so wide we no longer have an exit hole
glass mortar
LMAO
covert kestrel
it's so wide we no longer have an exit hole
No hole
glass mortar
id highly recommend zacs RtB at least tho
nimble sage
unplayable
gaunt phoenix
it doesnt say bing bing reroll now
covert kestrel
i put it onto my guys afner edit
You use a SHAREHOLDER WA???
covert kestrel
No wonder you get free hacks
glass mortar
👏 🫡 👏
covert kestrel
169
sudden fulcrum
do it you won't
proper bear
keen belfry
what aboiut 215
keen belfry
okok
glass mortar
219 if you wanna go really hard for a first step
keen belfry
my badff
nimble sage
Is Devlin a member of this very particular discord?
covert kestrel
Is Devlin a member of this very particular discord?
Yus
covert kestrel
Is Devlin a member of this very particular discord?
Make sure to check out the overall custom options tab, devlin has a bunch of stuff in there you can use to customize
nimble sage
Yeah, I did that. I was hoping to make the resources and main ability row 2 icons wider in order to fit pistol shot and audacity as I am missing those because I am so new to the class for this expansion
Otherwise really good WA
glass mortar
ugh i need to remake my tracking WA for PS so i can finally play 1fth
since at this rate its going to be mandated in s3
glass mortar
see if they ever did an outlaw rework
id want them to retune CP gen and cap down to like 6 max, 1fth being the max for fth etc
and just retune everything around that
keen belfry
id be down
but also
just let me 2fth with pc + gs + cto
everytime i play 2fth im reminded of how cool/optimal kir is with cps
1fth is just hard/weird
hybrid crown
I wonder what ST sim ADR uptime is with 1fth
I was kinda shocked to see it was only a 90k difference between trickster no GS with PC
That was 3.5% for me which is pretty small
glass mortar
between it and what, GS?
3.5% is pretty crazy small for dropping ghostly usually sims closer to 5-6% for kir
hybrid crown
1 pt fan the hammer KIR m+ build vs no GS with PC HO
keen belfry
its crazy how strong PC is
glass mortar
oh
glass mortar
well yea that tracks 1 fth is also giving up like 6% ST damage, HO no ghostly gives up closer to 10%
hybrid crown
Let me redo it so I can link it
glass mortar
about 4% apart from each other on st
keen belfry
HO gives up 10% dropping gs?
glass mortar
ye
keen belfry
holy moly
glass mortar
GS is insanely powerful on ST
keen belfry
i might try out a no GS fatebound build next season
glass mortar
just doesnt feel like it
keen belfry
thoughts?
glass mortar
r u not planning on wearing a tier set?
keen belfry
yeah
glass mortar
gl
keen belfry
no cuz im not gonna wear any tier
hybrid crown
lol
gaunt phoenix
tier never dropped gg
keen belfry
i bet they fix fatebound after s3
cuz the tier is kinda bandaid
and by fix i mean lucky coin proc thingy
wintry solar
and by fix i mean lucky coin proc thingy
When you streaming again?
keen belfry
later today and probs gally prog tn
gaunt phoenix
one thing is that 2fth is a lot more consistent
wintry solar
Okie dokie
keen belfry
need to work
hybrid crown
I like HO in keys and was wondering how hard I was throwing with no GS, wondering if I should switch to KIR for keys
3.6% made me stick with HO
its just not that big of a difference
maybe its better in aoe too by a larger amount due to rtb
keen belfry
one thing is that 2fth is a lot more consistent
when your ps doesnt give you 5cps in stealth so you have to ps ss just to press bte in stealth 
i swear thats the low of 1fth, ps != finisher in crackshot windows
hybrid crown
I guess that is usually the case as well
covert kestrel
I like HO in keys and was wondering how hard I was throwing with no GS, wonderin...
You should switch to KiR cause then you get a peener size upgrade
hybrid crown
but the level I am doing keys it doesn't matter
gaunt phoenix
it is true that if fatebound in keys is a thing, then we are kind of tunneled into 1 fth
cause we need gs and pc does infinite dmg
wintry solar
Maybe HO without cto?
wintry solar
That's a thing no?
glass mortar
id rather 1 fth
wintry solar
Not a good thing
covert kestrel
That's a thing no?
Only now cause of tier iirc
gaunt phoenix
next tier, HO fatebound is tuned kind of low
glass mortar
dont forget we wont be spamming rolls most likely nor have this set bonus
hybrid crown
I think no CTO will be much worse losing this season's tier right
glass mortar
imagine no cto
just not see a GM buff a whole key
ho fates already tuned low on live
wintry solar
This is also assuming fatebound in keys
glass mortar
people dont realize that trickster slightly favors HO just cause kspree and kir clash
(which is why kir builds actually lose ST to HO builds for trickster specifically)
fatebound ho on live is our worst build st and aoe
its like 3-4% behind kir fatebound st, 5% behind our best ST builds in my gear
gaunt phoenix
Currently fatebound is so strong on low targets that it's an open question whether it is good in keys i think
wintry solar
What's the deal with the cloak?
gaunt phoenix
currently as in ptr
glass mortar
i mean if fatebound is tuned high enough to be the play in keys our aoe is probably just shit
same as s1
it would need to be hella overtuned
to actually be good
hybrid crown
hour long MD is really nice though
covert kestrel
trickster chuds stay pissing their adult diapers
late swallow
it would need to be hella overtuned
df s3 type shit
hybrid crown
if they are anywhere near eachother i'm probably doing trickster just for the MD
gaunt phoenix
right now they have like the same dslice result
late swallow
right now they have like the same dslice result
gaunt phoenix
but they vary so much on target count so it depends
keen belfry
i mean if fatebound is tuned high enough to be the play in keys our aoe is proba...
are we going back to losing vs noobs
glass mortar
zacs doing alot of losing vs noobs on ptr
but all 3 rogue specs seem pretty shit rn
keen belfry
or are we forgetting we were probably hitting dead bodies in s1 right?
glass mortar
outlaw same as the others
covert kestrel
or are we forgetting we were probably hitting dead bodies in s1 right?
I love beating off dead horses
late swallow
tuning will be great on PTR by the end of the testing cycle
and then we get nerfed week one live
off of heroic week data
same shit as always
wintry solar
and then we get nerfed week one live
After rwf
keen belfry
I love beating off dead horses
if your uncle jack was stuck on a horse
gaunt phoenix
i dont really know how much i buy into the notion that outlaw will just be shit if we cant be trickster
wintry solar
Be real
hybrid crown
unless they rework outlaw in a big way it will be the best pug key spec
hybrid crown
I think
late swallow
sub got nerfed based on nerubar data
glass mortar
i mean they could do things to make the damage profile of fatebound better
i just dont see them doing it
hybrid crown
ehh maybe ret
late swallow
keen belfry
frontier and somnius are so gooners
wintry solar
I also see them nerfing FB tier
keen belfry
frontier and somnius are so gooners
@late swallow @covert kestrel
gaunt phoenix
bro
keen belfry
did u guys hear that shadowpriest tier is worth like 40% dps
sudden fulcrum
ew
sudden fulcrum
it's a void raid of course shadow priest is good
glass mortar
that make fatebounds even seem reasonable
covert kestrel
<@533772072845836302> <@259719852510543873>
glass mortar
no idea what their goal is
gaunt phoenix
your shtick of posting dumb shit is not cute all the time
late swallow
your shtick of posting dumb shit is not cute all the time
stop opening disc on your work comp
simple as
sudden fulcrum
somebody needs a nap
wintry solar
OP tier sets and borrowed power cloak is aiming to be an interesting direction
keen belfry
yeah solo opened that in the wrong area
gaunt phoenix
i didnt
fallow hinge
OP tier sets and borrowed power cloak is aiming to be an interesting direction
boss the size of stormwind, we need stats the size of stormwind too :3
wintry solar
For eel!
keen belfry
OP tier sets and borrowed power cloak is aiming to be an interesting direction
i think we dont mind strong tier sets, atleast i dont. i think its fun when tier set is very stroing
gaunt phoenix
I dont like genuine convos disrupted by cringe
covert kestrel
your shtick of posting dumb shit is not cute all the time
Are my shenanigans cheeky and fun vs somnius' being cruel and tragic
wintry solar
i think we dont mind strong tier sets, atleast i dont. i think its fun when tier...
Nah but in tandem with the cloak is weird to me
late swallow
I dont like genuine convos disrupted by cringe
the genuine convo:
keen belfry
I dont like genuine convos disrupted by cringe
you dont think that fatebound needs to be overtuned (giga in ST) to be good in aoe?
keen belfry
Nah but in tandem with the cloak is weird to me
cloak is probs fake borrowed power we dont think about
maybe
wintry solar
I imagine it's random stat procs that are good for everyone but us
gaunt phoenix
I just don't think outlaw needs to do have BF inflated by trickster in order to be good in keys
keen belfry
borrowed power is only bad when its spec defining then just disappears
but i like seeing BF be 70% of my dmg on a pull solo
wintry solar
How else would I know BF is working?
gaunt phoenix
like if fatebound or trickster can do the same overall right now
Why is losing aoe such a problem
late swallow
would be pretty funny if we specced around dungeon/pull size
covert kestrel
I just don't think outlaw needs to do have BF inflated by trickster in order to ...
Do you think fatebound needs reworking to make it not buns in keys then? I feel like all eyes are on ks
/trickster
gaunt phoenix
i think the anti prio stuff is lame but not a huge deal
keen belfry
like if fatebound or trickster can do the same overall right now
Why is losing ...
how variable is our coin dmg? like if we roll heads are we fucked
wintry solar
would be pretty funny if we specced around dungeon/pull size
We'd play fatebound with pugs because pug tanks are scared
glass mortar
like if fatebound or trickster can do the same overall right now
Why is losing ...
u mean on ptr?
gaunt phoenix
Yes
late swallow
We'd play fatebound with pugs because pug tanks are scared
yeah I guess, but I think most of this convo is based around ideal conditions with premades
what target counts is FB winning over rn?
like 3-5?
vapid blaze
How cooked is trickster tho for fatebound to be even
glass mortar
well if they are doing the same overalls, its probably because fatebound is doing giga st/low cleave and trickster doing actual aoe right
wintry solar
And no tuning from this point on
glass mortar
just sounds like ur picking ur poison more then outlaw usually does whic his cringe
do low target st or do aoe
this time in the form of hero talents on top of PC
thats kinda cringe imo
keen belfry
I REALLY ACTUALLY HOPE WE PLAY TRICKSTER IN KEYS AND FATEBOUND IN RAID ITHINK TTHAT WOUL DBE VERY FUN
gaunt phoenix
how variable is our coin dmg? like if we roll heads are we fucked
it looks like trickster is more statistical variance
glass mortar
i mean id be fine with that
gaunt phoenix
i agree !
keen belfry
i think that would be awesome to play 2 diff hero trees for content
wintry solar
I just want everyone to play what they want in the content they want :)
glass mortar
the fact that it can do enough aoe to beat fatebound is whats really crazy
just shows u how absolutely awful fatebound must be in aoe
for them to match in dslice
late swallow
coin should ricochet in aoe or some shit
keen belfry
what keys does wax whistle not work in again
glass mortar
wax whistle works in all of them afaik
loud blaze
I was just thinking about the damage windows when we vanish. Why don't they bring back the dreadblade style proc after you vanish to make CP generating abilities give full CPs?
gaunt phoenix
wax whistle should work everywhere
glass mortar
ur thinking of vexies thing
keen belfry
oh ty
loud blaze
wouldn't that make the damage windows more consistent and help maintain CDR by fitting in an extra spender?
keen belfry
i got a mythic one in vault and i might just use it for vibes until i get mythic magent and hoctuah
wintry solar
It feels good knowing no matter how tuning turns out, I'm still playing trickster in keys.
glass mortar
I was just thinking about the damage windows when we vanish. Why don't they brin...
because the point of crackshot windows is the variance and this would reduce the variance by a ton
they specifically deleted dreadblades as soon as we had that combo on ptr
loud blaze
because the point of crackshot windows is the variance and this would reduce the...
yes, the variance is a problem because you feel punished when you don't get a proc instead of rewarded when you do
glass mortar
thats just a reframing of it tho
i do agree variance should be reduced, not in the way of guarenteeing 1 builder 1 spender tho
fallow hinge
yes, the variance is a problem because you feel punished when you don't get a pr...
oh hey that's how I felt as survival on mug'zee
glass mortar
if the variance of crackshot bothers u u can just play HO
glass mortar
guarenteed u never press more then 2 builders per bte
the problem rn is the variance can be press 1 SS > spender or press 5 SS > spender
and thats kinda gross
covert kestrel
also that's probably too close to subs window when they get full cps from builders from whatever
gaunt phoenix
think dreadblades was removed in part of debloating outlaw buttons and resources a bit
glass mortar
was also because we literally gave it to sub
but yea it made crackshot windows very boring
wintry solar
Still miss it
loud blaze
we definitely don't need dreadblades back, but right now the spec just feels "bad" when you dont get a reset or other procs
haughty moat
think dreadblades was removed in part of debloating outlaw buttons and resources...
same for mfd i guess
loud blaze
You only get so many casts in the Vanish window, and it would flow so nice to Vanish>BTE>CP>BTE>CP>BTE>CP>BTE
glass mortar
not all the time
would be very boring
if it was something that could proc rarely on a crackshot window i could see it
gaunt phoenix
ambush bte ambush bte
glass mortar
but again, HO is already largely like that
way less variance in its crackshot windows
covert kestrel
Need dopamine hits from true random procs otherwise I crash out and edge for 5 hrs
loud blaze
boring is not getting resets and then losing your AR so the spec grinds to a halt
keen belfry
if magnet was tuned better would it be a contender for goat trinket?
flexible trinkets are so cool
glass mortar
it is the goat brother
gaunt phoenix
nah
glass mortar
just because it loses by 0.2% to vexie
keen belfry
it doesnt do enough to be a goat
keen belfry
like if it did like
covert kestrel
boring is not getting resets and then losing your AR so the spec grinds to a hal...
It would take some serious <95% badluck to have just a few resets bork your rotation
strong halo
what in the the hot garbage
keen belfry
if magnet did bomb dispenser dps it would be goat contender
glass mortar
oh i meant this season
keen belfry
im saying goat goat
wintry solar
Lock n stalk is cool. I wish it was good
glass mortar
whats the goat goat
gaunt phoenix
razor coral
keen belfry
are we talking outlaw
glass mortar
i think im about to get triggered by a buncha people in here that just like haha funny big numbers trinkets
haughty moat
grieftorch
gaunt phoenix
yes
keen belfry
or any spec dps
strong halo
what stats are on converting bracers?
keen belfry
its grieftorch for sure
gaunt phoenix
converting?
strong halo
into tier? or u cant
haughty moat
i loved boon also^^
keen belfry
i dont think many are even close to grieftorch
mighty pivot
goat goat is DST 
glass mortar
magnet was among the top design, i dont remember razorcoral altho i do know the name
keen belfry
other specs? i always think of lei shen trinket as goat goat trinket
strong halo
what in the the hot garbage
bro all of thse have mastery kill me
orchid oracle
Yeah, I did that. I was hoping to make the resources and main ability row 2 icon...
heya! yes im here, if you want to change # of icons, width etc it requires manual editing which is quite time consuming. if you want to know more you can dm me
glass mortar
grieftorch was only so fun in peoples minds because it did 10X the damage of any trinket on live rn
and looked pretty
fair enough but not what i value in trinkets
keen belfry
magnet was among the top design, i dont remember razorcoral altho i do know the ...
if magenet blasted it woul dbe goat goat
glass mortar
u still spend 2s casting a trinket
gaunt phoenix
into tier? or u cant
haste mastery
strong halo
well
loud blaze
It would take some serious <95% badluck to have just a few resets bork your rota...
I think it depends on a lot of variables. It does't bork your rotation but it does throw it off enough where it doesn't feel as good. I mean we're looking at an extremeley small sample of people playing Outlaw at this point anyway
strong halo
truely one garbage vault
gaunt phoenix
Outlaw has rng issues, it's longstanding
glass mortar
i mean variance wont feel as fun if it doesnt have low ends to make the high ends feel high
i dont think u are targeting the best spot is all
wintry solar
I think it depends on a lot of variables. It does't bork your rotation but it do...
The voices tell me more spec changes are coming as a whole
gaunt phoenix
would like to see like SS bad luck protection rather than guaranteed cps
glass mortar
if u just made every crackshot window guarenteed builder > spender > builder > spender
it would be very boring imo
strong halo
what in the the hot garbage
coin angle huh?
glass mortar
HOs windows are already so heavily normalized even ur worst window is still fine feeling
the problem is the CP gen variance of kir
and our basic CP generators
vs 7 CP cap
loud blaze
if u just made every crackshot window guarenteed builder > spender > builder > s...
I disagree, because you would have the variance of getting the BTE procs. It would just make NOT getting procs feel better
keen belfry
guys i know im going to look back at our current tier with rose tinted glasses please remind me when i say "man i miss geting so many 5 buffs" ok?
mighty pivot
would like to see like SS bad luck protection rather than guaranteed cps
SS failing to strike twice gives you coins which you can spend for it to strike twice 
loud blaze
SS failing to strike twice gives you coins which you can spend for it to strike ...
still feels bad, doesn't fix the issue
keen belfry
guys i know im going to look back at our current tier with rose tinted glasses p...
please remind me next tier @glass mortar
hybrid crown
As long as we consistently get high ADR uptime im happy
wintry solar
This tier is great
glass mortar
and i know its gunna feel like shit dropping the 5 buffs all the time also but god when ur just waiting 70% of a dungeon to start getting some 5 buffs
and u get the worst timing on ur 1 buff chains so u look like ur lowkey trolling on important pulls
keen belfry
and i know its gunna feel like shit dropping the 5 buffs all the time also but g...
i had a 19 dfc yesterday where i didnt press KIR on the trash inbetween 1st and 2nd boss
glass mortar
xd
covert kestrel
and u get the worst timing on ur 1 buff chains so u look like ur lowkey trolling...
Last night I got 4 1buffs before 1 5buff, I wanted to cry
glass mortar
kir is all sunk cost this season ngl, when u have a good 3 buff and think "nah i'll roll a 5 or proc CtO so i will wait"
then 2 kir cooldowns later
wintry solar
Imagine having bad rtb rng
glass mortar
ur just holding back the tears
mighty pivot
HOs windows are already so heavily normalized even ur worst window is still fine...
HO variance will go up soon when broadside will be rarer next tier. And without BS you are not guaranteed 1 ambush per finisher in crackshot
glass mortar
no but u are guarenteed 2
as u always have been
i didnt even claim one
with broadside u are guarenteed the same gameplay as dreadblade would tho yea
and in the exact way i woulda wanted
for some crackshots, not for others
loud blaze
with broadside u are guarenteed the same gameplay as dreadblade would tho yea
almost, if you get broadside and true bearing it feels like you're playing legion outlaw again
glass mortar
how do you "Feel" TB
the only time i feel TB is when i dont roll it at all for like 5 minutes straight and then wonder why im barely making my AR timers
but thats so far downwind
actually thats a lie i do feel TB when i hit a supercharged coup + TB
thats definitly a dopamine drop
loud blaze
legion outlaw for a while you would reroll until you got True Bearing, then hit dreadblades for the extra CDR to reduce ADR
Almost all of the damage then was in the ADR window and the rest of your rotation was just trying to get it back up
glass mortar
ok but u already get enough cdr on average for 95-100% AR uptime
we probably have double legions AR uptime
wintry solar
ok but u already get enough cdr on average for 95-100% AR uptime
I wonder if that's staying
loud blaze
Yeah, the spec is completely different now.
glass mortar
been this way since the rework in df with no apparent desire to change it so
unless we got another rogue tree recook coming in midnight
glass mortar
theyd need to do alot to move away from it imo, it was an insane power increase to budget around
if they moved us away from it ud need to do alot of work to not make it feel like shit
loud blaze
Yep, and how many people have been playing Outlaw since DF?
glass mortar
people have gotten so used to it
i doubt u could measure a noticable drop off in outlaw players since df vs since wotlk
rogues been a dead class for a decade now
loud blaze
I don't think we need to go back to Legion by the way, I was just saying when you have True Bearing and Broadside it reminded me of back then.
glass mortar
"dead" being incredibly underplayed
dawn talon
Yep, and how many people have been playing Outlaw since DF?
nobody wants to play rogue
just how the class is
haughty moat
glass mortar
only class under us is evoker still right? player pop wise
random stirrup
Someone’s gotta be last
dawn talon
only class under us is evoker still right? player pop wise
yeah and the gap continues to close
lol
sinful pendant
stuff like outlaw is too apm demanding
dawn talon
ok but assa and sub are also unpopular specs
sinful pendant
why play it when you can ret one button do tons of damage
vapid blaze
Rouge in General has lowest Player count
dawn talon
it is just the rogue class
sinful pendant
one button blows up a dungeon boss it is what it is
covert kestrel
why play it when you can ret one button do tons of damage
Cuz fun
random stirrup
People want everything to be popular until they gut the interesting aspects of a spec and make it ret pala 2.0
dawn talon
like, you have the relationship between popularity and ease of play backwards
'hunter with animal companion' and 'guy in giant suit of armor with flashy vfx' are popular in EVERY game
so bm and ret are intentionally easy
to onboard new players
glass mortar
ok but also
random stirrup
the majority is gonna drool on their keyboard and play the easiest simplest thing they can
glass mortar
am i crazy here
sinful pendant
yeah BM and ret is an excellent tutorial pve classes
glass mortar
growing up to me for mmos the assassin/stealth class was always seen as pretty popular?
for like the edgy stealthlords
sinful pendant
rogue is fr not a new player experience friendly class
dawn talon
those people aren't playing mmos anymore
they're making winter soldier marvel rivals edits on tiktok
glass mortar
its like one of the bigger fantasy tropes alongside glowy paladin man
loud blaze
You've also got to include that rogue has 3 specs, usually 2 of them are splitting the players. In previous seasons if you added up the two specs they would equal the number of players for other melee
dawn talon
the fantasy element doesn't appeal to them, the edgy part does
dawn talon
so they will play whatever is popular and edgy
glass mortar
rogue loses to everyone except evoker in class count
stuck sparrow
vapid blaze
Well Assassin's often have alot cooler themes and visuals
glass mortar
thats all 3 specs added up
vapid blaze
Like zed or talon
sinful pendant
well tbh isnt DH an edgelord class and its 4th pop according to that list?
jolly geyser
catalyse the codex
glass mortar
yea its possible wow just has better edgelords now
random stirrup
DH has a sick fantasy
glass mortar
and rogue is super low fantasy for an mmo assassin i guess
sinful pendant
gouging your eyes out to scene demons yeah thats so cool
glass mortar
yea ok bozos, we aint been fighting demons in 5 years now
vapid blaze
Idk have u Played lost ARK reaper
glass mortar
time to retire to the farm old man
dawn talon
Well Assassin's often have alot cooler themes and visuals
i mean
stuck sparrow
i mean warrior isnt that high fantasy of a class
vapid blaze
That shit is cool, knife Stab isnt
dawn talon
usually only 1 ad champ will be in top 10 midlane pickrate
at any given moment
let alone the ad assassins
glass mortar
it certainly isnt high fantasy yea
dawn talon
rn we have three which is crazy
glass mortar
theres alot of reasons rogue might be unpopular, its probably a combination of all of them
loud blaze
I just want for my vanish windows to be more consistent when I raid...
keen belfry
oswalb talking about league again
jolly geyser
mobas 
dawn talon
oswalb talking about league again
it's relevant this time i swear
glass mortar
one thing that definitly stands out is anytime anyone makes a post about rogues in the wow reddits or forums, its filled with people from other classes calling us clunky and a bunch of nonsense effort for no real payoff
sinful pendant
i gave up on mobas to go to an even toxic releationship (MMOs)
glass mortar
so that consensus seems to be in the more casual playerbase of the game
best as i can tell
loud blaze
melee is less popular than ranged, and rogue has less utility than some other melee specs (i.e. legsweep)
jolly geyser
need edgy booba champ
sinful pendant
mobas and mmos is like a rock and hard place, they both suck the life out of you but i keep WoW and HoTs with me to this day
dawn talon
need edgy booba champ
kaisa ?
her voicelines are so edgy sometimes
or ig vayne is the edgiest booba champ but hoooly fk base vayne model is so ass
loud blaze
Do you all think that the developers have just decided to lean into how players stick with the meta spec, and expect us to just change class depending on the content?
mighty pivot
vayne is basically batman so she needs to be edgy
sinful pendant
if i return to league i am just gonna pick up where i left off and Que Jhin.
dawn talon
like i think if u exclude adcs (bc such small champ pool for the role means higher pickrates by default) the most popular champs in na are nami and lux
HAHHAHA
random stirrup
one thing that definitly stands out is anytime anyone makes a post about rogues ...
Ret paladin players call anything where you press more than 2 buttons clunky
dawn talon
i go check
random stirrup
Again you don’t want to be the most popular spec
dawn talon
i know why
random stirrup
it’s just liable to get gutted of any degree of complexity or interesting interactions
sinful pendant
yeah r/wow HATES outlaw
sinful pendant
its like a cardinal sin to mention that spec
dawn talon
they didn't
sinful pendant
they want combat rogue back yeah
dawn talon
if you tell them this they make up imaginary people who quit the game in droves
sinful pendant
like lmao classic is that way
dawn talon
bc combat was reworked into outlaw
loud blaze
it’s just liable to get gutted of any degree of complexity or interesting intera...
what specifically do we mean by complexity and interesting interactions?
random stirrup
“Combat was so much better. I loved sinister striking to 5 Cp and pressing snd”
sinful pendant
yeah that sounds so primitive
random stirrup
what specifically do we mean by complexity and interesting interactions?
Completely making shit up, but ss would get replaced with pistol shot when procced, bte would replace dispatch when in crackshot, kir would be removed insta
sinful pendant
rock smash rock to deal bigger dam
random stirrup
Just generally a lot of decision making points would be taken away
covert kestrel
Cause they are all obsessed with lore apparently, and need to have a 2h leather wearer that isn't a ww or dh
dawn talon
“Combat was so much better. I loved sinister striking to 5 Cp and pressing snd”
"Combat was so much better. I didn't actually play it at any point, but someone said it in a reddit comment and said they heard it on a podcast, so I'm repeating it."*
dawn talon
Cause they are all obsessed with lore apparently, and need to have a 2h leather ...
and also they actually know nothing about the lore
they just think garrosh was dope
proven ocean
@vivid vessel btw what do u think of priory
needs tuning imo, too hard
for s3
its a nightmare without rsham and disc priest unplayable honestly
let alone with those 2 its still extremely rough
sudden fulcrum
why?
proven ocean
well now that u ask'
priory takes you automatically atleast x2 the amount of effort as any other "2nd" hardest dungeon
up to 10x imo
its overtuned but it is not undefeatable ofc
loud blaze
I don't want outlaw to be the best spec, I just want them to fix the small pain points around the RNG that are negative, taking away from the "good" RNG aspects. They're so close to having it smoothed out
loud blaze
I'm worried, they're not going to go that next 10%
vivid vessel
<@352916297262301194> btw what do u think of priory
I think the shield guys are too annoying, they should only dr themselves at most, it's cringe having to spam aoe ccs
I think it's annoying how nothing gives count but caster
There is a whole side of the dungeon you can't go cause it gives 0 count
As an order of idea iirc a caster is 4 times more efficient than the shield guys (and that's ignoring the shield)
I think there is too many casters, and I don't like that they require all a 3 kick rotation, to me casters should require 3 kicks rotation at most
proven ocean
i think dogs hit abit too hard too
nerf by 10%, and lightspawn guy 10% dmg nerf from sucking
1st boss tank dmg is quite high imo
needs tuning
sudden fulcrum
lightspawn and dogs are insane
is 1st boss still shredding tanks even after the redesign?
proven ocean
other than that honestly the key is absolutely fine
proven ocean
is 1st boss still shredding tanks even after the redesign?
didnt see the redesign
m+ isnt out till later today i think
sudden fulcrum
oh ok
sudden fulcrum
i wasn't sure if they reduced tank damage to account for the new mechanic
vivid vessel
Bet we will have overlaps where he cast in poop forever
manic kestrel
!wa
ornate heathBOT
Class packs:
- Guy's - Afenar's Edit Luxthos Edit
- Zac's Group Devlin
Utilities: - Combo Point Standalone
- Last GCD in Crackshot window / Subterfuge timer
- Ace refund sound trigger
- RtB buffs tracker (shows normal, CTO, and KIR'd buffs)
- Unseen Blade tracker
Fun: - Ace max combo counter and Ace current combo counter
- KS Ticking damage taken
covert kestrel
Time to start the thunderfury grind 
vivid vessel
Time to start the thunderfury grind <:SighDuck:792649463998316564>
Why
late swallow
Time to start the thunderfury grind <:SighDuck:792649463998316564>
did you get both bindings finally or something?
covert kestrel
did you get both bindings finally or something?
No that's what I'm starting lol
late swallow
No that's what I'm starting lol
shackled urzul would be based
hybrid crown
Fyi if you don't get it from tempest keep the ashes mount has a 5% drop from illidan in BC / BT TW
late swallow
although, I feel like you'll just be able to buy it with legion remix
hybrid crown
You can kill illidan in like 5 mins via skip groups
I got ashes and invincible from tw raids
late swallow
all the rare mop mounts were purchaseable in mop remix
covert kestrel
all the rare mop mounts were purchaseable in mop remix
Yeah prob skipping legion mounts just cause of this
I want the raven lord, I was grinding that ish back in cata and never got it
jolly geyser
but I got the legion mounts
echo tide
Time to start the thunderfury grind <:SighDuck:792649463998316564>
Thunderfury had pretty good drop chances even before the event
The questline is super annoying though
And that didn’t change
covert kestrel
Thunderfury had pretty good drop chances even before the event
Now it'll be even better 
worldly shale
isnt it better to go pure st on myth mug?
what are people leeching off of for parse?
the fkn drones?
or do we hit outside of cages?
glass mortar
r people leeching for parses
as outlaw
top parse i see has bf as 4% of their damage
which i guess is a bid paddy even i doubt i ever get it to be more then 1-2% of mine
but still not very much overall
glass mortar
trickster is just as good if not better ST
fatebound has several nodes that partially/fully turn off whenever mines are in range of u because they are targetable even tho they take 99% reduced damage
so anytime mines are up nearby its actively losing st
combine those two things and thats why people play trickster on it
mighty pivot
good design btw 
worldly shale
are we deadass
glass mortar
ye
worldly shale
what the helly
glass mortar
if u read thru fatebound you'll see it has two specific nodes, one that slowly turns off as u add targets, one that turns off and starts trying to "aoe" instead of slamming the main target
since mines have health bars even if u cant kill them
they count towards both of those
🙂
glass mortar
has that energy ye
mighty pivot
they should give fatebound a taunt button so that you can pull your target away and blast it for full damage. thoughts?
glass mortar
regardless fatebound isnt really more ST even if it didnt have this feature
the only reason fatebound is played on the pure ST fight of the season is u literally cannot press kspree (m sprocket)
its at best tied with trickster for st (and u need to play kir to tie it)
u can play fatebound and do fine damage for prog if u really hate kspree on mugzee altho its just worse overall due to this
cinder relic
Next tier is gonna be fatebound nation
glass mortar
if be very surprised if the intention wasnt for us to at least play trickster in m+
making new kspree and rejigging the stuff in trickster around it to not even touch the hero talent would go crazy
late swallow
Next tier is gonna be fatebound nation
say it louder
glass mortar
after having a whole season of live kspree
coulda nerfed trickster and buffed fatebound at any point entire tier
gaunt phoenix
Fear not, they are cooking
sharp hinge
Next tier is gonna be fatebound nation
wicked ether
gaunt phoenix
😨
late swallow
https://tenor.com/view/kay-cooking-gif-18358911
this was uhdk gameplay this season
mighty pivot
are you sure it's not DS sub?
mighty pivot
I am sure I can find logs of poor souls playing DS sub. They will be like 5 people but that's like what, 5% of sub's total population at this point?
glass mortar
on live?
glass mortar
that might be a bit tricky on live...
mighty pivot
someone has done a priory 14 as DS sub
vivid vessel
@gaunt phoenix you remember in s1
when i was saying outlaw needed a 10% bf buff
to be a m+ spec
if fatebound is our st spec that perform like outlaw does in st in raid
proven ocean
idk zac i think rogue is doomed this season because our dmg isn't lower than most classes lol
vivid vessel
and trickster isnt better
vivid vessel
then outlaw is just not good in m+ by default
you would need to have an absurd st to be tuned high enough for m+ as fatebound i think
glass mortar
they could tune in ways to fix it but idd
vivid vessel
idk zac i think rogue is doomed this season because our dmg isn't lower than mos...
what on ptr ?
vivid vessel
my feral gapped me aswell
vivid vessel
i think anytime i played against real player i get gapped
proven ocean
so
vivid vessel
he was dead
every pack ross
first timing dungeon
i had 100% uptime on being alive
proven ocean
idk, everytime i see any other class i see same dps
sharp hinge
Hi Zac
gaunt phoenix
i dunno it feels like making an assumption about tuning
proven ocean
i mean zac you don't think outlaw is below every class do you
i really dont think it is
glass mortar
it makes the assumption theyll tune dumbly
royal bane
if its a fatebound tier
Is it nimble furry that cause this issue ?
vivid vessel
I got gapped by boomie, arcane, and my feral would have absolutely destroyed my assohle if he stayed alive
vivid vessel
i dunno it feels like making an assumption about tuning
im not tho
glass mortar
fatebound needs targeted aoe improvements
vivid vessel
im just saying fatebound doesnt do enough aoe comparatively to st @gaunt phoenix
proven ocean
glass mortar
unless ur making it hyper op in st
proven ocean
first time i open ur stream btw
dmg looks the same
heres another one ur topping the meters
so idk about "gap"
gaunt phoenix
would like the gap to be lesser for sure
vivid vessel
you are ignoring the context
proven ocean
this
vivid vessel
of him first timing
proven ocean
thats another run tho
late swallow
who is your third favorite Z?
vivid vessel
dmg looks the same
proven ocean
as much as i want outlaw to be buffed, i really dont see a world where it needs buffs
vivid vessel
dude
mighty pivot
they are right on time to fight for today 
vivid vessel
that run is even worth
gaunt phoenix
zolo
desert tendon
outlaw dont need buffs
it need a full rework
from scratch
make it a range specs
mighty pivot
rework to combat you mean
proven ocean
and we both know outlaw gaps towards the end
vivid vessel
what
proven ocean
?
mighty pivot
vivid vessel
i have done my fair share of early season to know outlaw is way better early on
proven ocean
opposite huh
vivid vessel
than at the end
vivid vessel
you gap lower keys ?
covert kestrel
That isn't cinderbussy meadery
vivid vessel
you gap lower keys litteraly every seasn
proven ocean
you gap lower keys ?
i didnt say that
vivid vessel
idk what you are saying
desert tendon
cuz it will means it s op in lower keys
proven ocean
cuz it will means it s op in lower keys
outlaw is better in higher keys tbh
its the opposite nowadays
proven ocean
15 is a high key
proven ocean
everyone does 15s on ptr, kira, yoda etc
desert tendon
to me
vivid vessel
you one shot mobs rn still
proven ocean
yes it is
desert tendon
end of the seasons
vivid vessel
no its not
proven ocean
18s and 19s are for boomkin/mm, arcane classes
vivid vessel
you still one shot mobs compared to live
proven ocean
that do triple ur dps
vivid vessel
where packs live long
desert tendon
everyone does 15s on ptr, kira, yoda etc
what about my favorite streamer zero?
desert tendon
hey you guys know since i left the game i feel happy not having to hope for rogue changes
covert kestrel
desert tendon
how aug looks so far also?
proven ocean
zac as i said
i want outlaw to be buffed
but
can't be ignorant that it's weak because it isnt
vivid vessel
first pack last 30s
you just chain it forever
start at 15s here
30s later all dead you chain the 2 other guys
proven ocean
zac
vivid vessel
can't be ignorant that it's weak because it isnt
i know when outlaw is weak and when it isnt
im ngl
i have never been wrong once
on this one
I dont think im delusional
im way weaker than on live
proven ocean
idk what ur trying to point out here because i know u want to show this because boomkin does 200m starsurges and arcane does 50-100m dps
proven ocean
thats not a gap zac
desert tendon
but i wont talk more about it
proven ocean
ur delusional
these classes are op
u cant compare to them
they'll get fixed not NERFED
desert tendon
u dont
vivid vessel
i know how it feels
desert tendon
i know it better than you
vivid vessel
i have been doing this every season
proven ocean
i know my spec too brotherman
proven ocean
aha
vivid vessel
on live its gapping everyone
in melee comps ye
sudden fulcrum
thanks for sandbagging zac
vivid vessel
shouldnt i be tho ?
proven ocean
in melee comps ye
and would u invite a mage in a melee comp? no you wouldn't because it'll suck, same with outlaw in ranged comps it'll suck
sudden fulcrum
no i'm serious
desert tendon
where acro btw?
vivid vessel
when i litteraly have 0 upside to my spec
sudden fulcrum
that's how you get buffed
proven ocean
idk what ur trying to point out here
because neither classes work in a comp that doesn't synergize with them
vivid vessel
idk what you are trying to point out either lol
proven ocean
?
covert kestrel
Kiss
vivid vessel
im saying in melee comps outlaw gaps on live
vivid vessel
and it doesnt on ptr
proven ocean
on PTR its "balanced"
vivid vessel
and i will get gapped with current ptr
in melee comps
outlaw is op on live ?
ok
proven ocean
your always linking me 30% dps ahead meters
on outlaw
ZEROSS LOOK OUTLAW OP
NOW U BELIEVE OR WHAT
ofc i do
and now ur saying no
outlaw isn't op in live
sharp hinge
the other dps couldve been shat though
proven ocean
why? because u dont want to get nerfed
i agree i dont want outlaw to be nerfed
but
it is doing good dmg on ptr from what im seeing
even when i played it, i was doing very good dmg on it in m+
vivid vessel
nah
proven ocean
gapping some classes by 5-10%
vivid vessel
if outlaw doesnt do more damage than other specs
whats the point of the spec
it does nothing
i mean
proven ocean
what do u want, ask for utility
vivid vessel
no
late swallow
vivid vessel
outlaw is different and you know it lol
proven ocean
no i dont, sub has worse utility than outlaw if anything
vivid vessel
cause its useless in so many scenarios
cause its capped
and dont have cds
and you know that
proven ocean
no cds, sure but melee comps pull around that already
vivid vessel
I was doing the same damage as now
proven ocean
thats because doubvle rogue is bad
sharp hinge
whats the issue
vivid vessel
whats the issue
the damage profile is useless
you dont have burst
you dont have funnel
you dont have anything
glass mortar
the issue is u can make a good argument for outlaw being "op" in keys on live because we are tuned high enough to actually demolish keys
vivid vessel
you are target capped
glass mortar
especially in melee comp
dawn talon
give us some util atleast man
agile orchid
have you tried changing specs to assa
glass mortar
the problem is that outlaws damage profile has so many issues
even when its "op" its not op
which is what zac is getting at
vivid vessel
you cant lose uptime
sudden fulcrum
i find the ST damage with sin to be a challenging issue
proven ocean
sin needs udk, something that bursts uncap aoe for assa to be good, and outlaw is the opposite it needs classes that do always good dmg and a small good burst
late swallow
you litteraly kicked me from your m+ group cause my spec was bad
he kicked you and you became the #1 rogue?
vivid vessel
he kicked you and you became the #1 rogue?
ye
late swallow
hero's journey bro
vivid vessel
ty
late swallow
real and true?