Bro read the paper
#outlaw
wintry solar
haughty wigeon
im talking about bigots who got yeeted cause they were offended by a rainbow
glass mortar
yea that was cinema
honestly the wildest part of today is that ryu got banned and it WASNT for a cringe take on pride
wintry solar
Lol so true
So anyways
I have a stealthless build I think will be meta next season
glass mortar
cook whatever u want sir
i logged in today and collected the haste vers dungeon chest from my vault
then a leech mythic capo from raid
and bought a hotline
nothing can bother me anymore
i finished the season
unborn basin
im talking about bigots who got yeeted cause they were offended by a rainbow
what rainbow? and why?
wintry solar
No, Zac and Zeross would take it seriously and I have a habit of defending myself after an obvious joke that I now take seriously.
unborn basin
that'd be a cool looking mog
unborn basin
we have purple at least
unborn basin
😮
unborn basin
can't .. outlaw gave me gout
wintry solar
No, it's the double decker bacon cheeseburger that gave you gout
glass mortar
god a weapon enchant that looked like the current rogue discord blades
would go so hard
unborn basin
agreed
wintry solar
Bacon cheeseburger would go hard rn too tbh
torpid fiber
god a weapon enchant that looked like the current rogue discord blades
Classic players would explode I think
wintry solar
We haven't had a good weapon enchant in years imo
The classic illusions are just too good
wintry solar
SL had some good onea
desert tendon
SL are greats
wintry solar
Mog is sick, yeah.
desert tendon
but necros
near rock
finally a good roulette
wintry solar
I just watched the UI interview. Late I know. But how do you make a spec like outlaw less complex but not easier?
sharp hinge
are u wargen?
glass mortar
i mean ur probably gunna make it a little easier but u can remove some unfun complexity
ye
sharp hinge
whaaaa, how is that? i never see them
glass mortar
like, the whole fucking hidden RtB duration buff and gameplay around it
is kinda cringe
sharp hinge
lul
glass mortar
remove that and codify how the buffs work more normally
glass mortar
whaaaa, how is that? i never see them
based now that darklight stacks with all move speed boosts
every 1.5m i have nitro boots in raid
sprint + darkflight
frail veldt
I just watched the UI interview. Late I know. But how do you make a spec like ou...
imagine the difficulty of KiR builder/spender rules vs the "complexity" of knowing when to press rtb based on the container logic as KiR
glass mortar
not that we need more mobility... still fun tho
frail veldt
thats like a good example of difference in complexity vs difficulty
sharp hinge
ahh fast af, nice'
wintry solar
Oh okay yeah I get it
frail veldt
but ideally easy to explain
glass mortar
yea container logic is cringe
glass mortar
just like, codify that rerolling doesnt roll over buffs with a duration longer then the cap
and also doesnt remove CtO buffs
done
u can still have cute KiR reroll rules simplified and such
wintry solar
I was thinking they're talking about the amount of things we track
But that makes sense too
glass mortar
tracking could be improved
game should have a cleaner way to track fth
especially when some builds have more uses then others
(1 fth can store up to 3 casts of PS)
wintry solar
Lul
Yeah I was under the impression of subtle gameplay changes idk
Glad I asked
In terms of talent altering I mean. If that makes sense.
sharp hinge
nice little 12 priory at 667 ilvl
daring oxide
Grats!
rich moon
question, in KIR you only get one re-cast of roll the bones before it starts taking away from the affected buffs, right?
glass mortar
yes altho u can roll more then once if u roll fast enough
frail veldt
yes altho u can roll more then once if u roll fast enough
so I actually have an issue with this
glass mortar
if u roll before the buffs hit 39s, then the buffs that dont get rolled over (if any do) will have enough duration to still allow another roll
frail veldt
lets say I get the blessed KiR 6 roll
glass mortar
but you may proc enough natty RtB buffs off the first one it isnt worth it
frail veldt
and I rtb once before the highest buff gets to 39 seconds
so I only override 2 buffs with the rtb container
I now have usually 2 red buffs, 4 yellow buffs
now rules wise
I should roll again as soon as rtb is off cd right?
cuz will_lose is <=2
gaunt phoenix
question, in KIR you only get one re-cast of roll the bones before it starts tak...
you technically get as many as you want as long as the original KIR'd buffs are >39s
though it is hardly ever more than twice as at that point you will lose more buffs than you gain
rich moon
so in a real situation I get one
frail veldt
But in my head it feels better to sit at 4 yellow and 2 red buffs
gaunt phoenix
I now have *usually* 2 red buffs, 4 yellow buffs
If you have 6 full buffs you can just sit on them
frail veldt
until like 10-12 seconds left
frail veldt
If you have 6 full buffs you can just sit on them
well you should do at least one roll
right?
gaunt phoenix
ya
random stirrup
But in my head it feels better to sit at 4 yellow and 2 red buffs
roll bt/snc obviously
frail veldt
while the buffs are over 39 seconds
ah gotcha but then you sit
good good yeah thats what ive been doing
it feels the most consistent
in terms of getting a potential kir into kir
rich moon
another question, should I use KIR if I get 5 and don't get the 6th in a few globals? or should I only use it when I got 6?
frail veldt
another question, should I use KIR if I get 5 and don't get the 6th in a few glo...
fish
IF those 5 came from a rtb
rich moon
yeah
frail veldt
but if those 5 came from some combination of cto
I dont think you still fish or at least its neutral to
gaunt phoenix
if you roll a natural 5, if you are still missing BS/RP/TB then i would try to fish
though it's not really a big deal
wintry solar
Fishing for the 6th buff regardless is low-key half the fun of kir for me
glass mortar
peak kir is when u chain 2 kirs 6 buffs in a row tbh
just over a minute of 5-6 buffs
🤤
wintry solar
That's the other half for sure
Remember when they nerfed Ace?
It can always be worse >.>
random stirrup
peak kir is when u chain 2 kirs 6 buffs in a row tbh
chain the 2nd kir -> insta overwrite all buffs with a 5buff roll so kir was 100% wasted
ancient cobalt
omg i got the hotline and the gally thumb this week guys
and last week i got the knuckles
i will be joining u guys soon ❤️
sullen wyvern
hey guys, does anyone have the WA for Mug'zee that put an avoid on the mines?
clear zephyr
!wa
ornate heathBOT
Class packs:
Guy's - Afenar's Edit 
Luxthos Edit
Zac's Group 
Devlin
Utilities:
Combo Point Standalone
Last GCD in Crackshot window / Subterfuge timer
Ace refund sound trigger
RtB buffs tracker (shows normal, CTO, and KIR'd buffs)
Unseen Blade tracker
Fun:
Ace max combo counter and Ace current combo counter
KS Ticking damage taken
haughty wigeon
https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/1166809459901878363.gif?size=128&quality=lossl...
unlawful bear stealing
cease
wintry solar
The existence of rtb is why baseline energy is so low
I want to leave it at that for the bit but every fiber in my being is saying that it's just an actual take from the forums
keen belfry
waiy ryu got banned?
haughty wigeon
I want to leave it at that for the bit but every fiber in my being is saying tha...
I saw
I know exactly who made this take
lime lake
waiy ryu got banned?
it brings me joy every time i see someone ask that
proven ocean
but yo
i got house of cards
last week eye of kezan
so i buy jastor diamond today and i literally have all items this season
bing chilling
wintry solar
I saw
The whole post is bad
It's fine to not like crackshot or whatever but idk why people have to be cringe about it
sullen wyvern
what did ryu do?
wintry solar
This time nothing but Whysper went over his post history
sullen wyvern
also where can I find a WA that put an avoid on crawler mines for M mugzee
hidden bay
whats the spark quest this week?
lime lake
disc fragments me thinks
tight cave
can someone help me with some sims? because i got some weird results and idk if they are correct
fossil lintel
Post the sim link
tight cave
ppl always said to get mythic weapon first by a shit belt looks like sims better than the weapon
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/8EycZ929yb5cZHz5yqx7gk
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/8vDSEDdsqru9LtVkbGF5nC
so idk what should i get from vault
fossil lintel
I mean, the weapon is our most important slot, but that doesn't mean that 4 Ilvls on the weapon will beat 14 Ilvls on another item
fluid meadow
do we have info about the overcharged delve belt? if that's better than your vault belt rn, weapon pick is the better
tight cave
oh ye i forgot about the new belt
fossil lintel
Try simming with a base 681 crafted belt since we got a new craft this week
Weapon plus 681 belt likely beats the 685 belt
Just the weapon alone is already within margin of error
tight cave
yep you are right with crafted belt weapon is way better, i will pick weapon then
thanks
frail veldt
yuge
stuck sparrow
I got goon hotline for os since no one wanted
valid bronze
does it make the most sense to put authority of the depths on my OH capo and radiant power on nightfall cudgel since they get swapped for AOE and ST in keys anyway?
vivid vessel
<@352916297262301194>
I stop dps for a minute straight buddy there is nothing to try
random stirrup
why no 3min push
strong cargo
Makes p2 easier
random stirrup
does it even
west ridge
@vivid vessel trickster on sprocket or no balls
random stirrup
you're hitting near 40% 2mins in?
vivid vessel
We need to debuff the adds before phasing
strong cargo
That's 4min ye
random stirrup
mm
i dont even think that's worht
they do no dmg anyway and he gets more moxie stacks
vivid vessel
We stop DPS right before the moment we have the jails rn
Idk what time that is
Then we wait to debuff the adds
strong cargo
I just didn't hit the boss for all p1 😄
random stirrup
We need to debuff the adds before phasing
yall are getting deep railed by the extra moxie stacks bro 
hold dps for a minute to take 3M more dps
vivid vessel
idk
strong cargo
yall are getting deep railed by the extra moxie stacks bro <:ICANT:1000132132724...
Is it only in p2 ?
random stirrup
no he gains a stacking dmg buff over the entire fight so the earlier u phase him the less dmg he will do
i think walking across the floor also adds like 10% dmg immediately or something
maybe 5
strong cargo
Yes, but he plays 1 more min in p1 damage will be higher overall but that doesn't matter, the goal is only to make p2 easier
random stirrup
oh
yea the damage taken screenshot is p2 only
first is my guild this week phasing at 3mins and his at 4mins from 2 days ago
vivid vessel
weirdo
cinder relic
!mute @grim island Another loser added to the list, enjoy the ban bitch
cinder relic
I forget if greens can ban
For the party of calling people snowflakes, these people sure do seem offended by a rainbow
gaunt phoenix
next wedge
crimson thicket
next wedge
gaunt phoenix
blissful idol
vivid vessel
Zolo
red zinc
ziemyee
gloomy coral
vivid vessel
Yo kofino
cinder relic
Feel free to ping me for any bigot spotted
hardy vault
Maybe dumb question but am I good to use my crafted dagger in OH? For keys I bought the Nightfall mace but wondering what I should use for raid
cinder relic
They will be excuted on the spot
vivid vessel
Maybe dumb question but am I good to use my crafted dagger in OH? For keys I bou...
@cinder relic
Plays ho
vivid vessel
Maybe dumb question but am I good to use my crafted dagger in OH? For keys I bou...
Ye dagger good btw
hardy vault
Sweet
magic shuttle
The vers mastery dagger from raid is a fairly nice weapon if you don't have capos molten knuckles
hot olive
my neck is crit vers crafted but i lose some vers if i pick this
and we get new belt soon
wintry solar
Ah yes
The belt
Luckily for me, my dad can't beat me with this one 
However I will have to delve
magic shuttle
Delves are pretty neat
wintry solar
Yeah. I'm just being a hater.
magic shuttle
Is it a dps gain to run the belt tho?
wintry solar
I got a dooky belt so it will be for me
hot olive
if not they will change
vivid vessel
My monk managed to get no real upgrades for like 2 weeks in a row while this mf has 2 mythic slot
hardy vault
Only did delves for the omega crest reward
hot olive
ohh zac alt
wintry solar
My monk managed to get no real upgrades for like 2 weeks in a row while this mf ...
Have you considered actually getting upgrades for your alt?
Just an idea idk
Just get better rng. Idk what the problem is.
hardy vault
I cba doing stuff on my two 680 chars anymore. Still progging raid so theres literally NO upgrades aside from vault rng
wintry solar
Winnar winnar chicken Dinnar
vivid vessel
Bought house of card on it
crimson thicket
Winner winner chicken dinnar
vivid vessel
Dude juiced fr !
hot olive
ww or brew?
crimson thicket
Stealth u owe me a kiss
vivid vessel
ww or brew?
Ww for splits
hardy vault
Btw do we know if you started the dinar stuff a week or two late you’ll just get the quest “longer” or are you just never gonna get to 9?
wintry solar
Stealth u owe me a kiss
Muah muah muah muah muah
vivid vessel
But I play brew in keys
crimson thicket
You will get 9
hot olive
noice
crimson thicket
Just late
wintry solar
Brew lame
red zinc
can i sim 2 crafted rings somehow
crimson thicket
Brew can do 20s
hardy thicket
WW was fun in SL but havent really fiddled with it since
crimson thicket
In their dreams psyche
hot olive
physical meta is what we need
crimson thicket
I could do 20s if I was invited no promise I'll time it
jolly geyser
aint no way
crimson thicket
Finishing up my 17s rn
hardy vault
physical meta is what we need
My dream comp is pwarr, mw, feral, mm, rog
crimson thicket
That's a good chest
crimson thicket
True
hot olive
3 rouges warr tank monk heal
crimson thicket
Shamans and paladins have too much utility share the wealth
crimson thicket
I said share
hardy thicket
No!
crimson thicket
Fk
crimson thicket
It's the most played because it's ez
hardy thicket
Their tier and divine hammer made them like slightly more fun this tier at least
crimson thicket
But night and day difference in good ret and bad ret
Good ret keep me alive bad ret let me die
fathom bramble
mostly from having sac bound
hot olive
zac there are many skip run groups rn go farm raid rep:)
red zinc
another 1% deeps this week 
crimson thicket
Yeah paladin animations are op
crimson thicket
another 1% deeps this week <:CAUGHT:1280607213420806215>
Where
hardy thicket
Outlaw sounds are still BaE
wintry solar
So meaty
hardy vault
And sounds
Divine Toll 
violet ferry
Holy pally is satisfying too
crimson thicket
I play assa mostly in keys so that's why I got
Don't think it will ever be good for outlaw but we will see
fathom bramble
it would require a mastery rework on 11.2, but who knows
jolly geyser
wish it was 30% / 30% unbuffed
next wedge
low haste no?
fathom bramble
within reason for ho
jolly geyser
I play ho
crimson thicket
He getting his stats roasted by the discord
crimson thicket
Zac is stacking for super high keys though
hot olive
true
crimson thicket
Survivability
fathom bramble
idk I hit 30% unbuffed and the sim started trying to make me take crit
probably thanks to the DR being at 30% from stats
hot olive
same thats why i crafted crit vers neck
crimson thicket
Yeah Sim doesn't care if you get one shot in your 21 cinderbrew
jolly geyser
I just follow sims
crimson thicket
Same
jolly geyser
crimson thicket
Thug hotline and gally fist are only upgrades left for me
hot olive
🫡
crimson thicket
That's a big boy
hot olive
my guild wont reclear
hardy vault
That’s sad
hot olive
my gear is kiinda ass
hot olive
cuz we killing bandit rn
crimson thicket
Oh lmao
vivid vessel
with flask and druid
with druid im at 41
jolly geyser
the verser
next wedge
next wedge
with flask and druid im at34
hardy vault
I hope we’ll get to do reclears this tier. Eternally stuck on prog
vivid vessel
Also I don't sim
hidden bay
with druid im at 41
That actually sims best for you?
vivid vessel
I just assume vers is better and run with it
random stirrup
what sim is there on outlaw
hidden bay
Ah ok
crimson thicket
Top gear
vivid vessel
Simming for outlaw is too annoying rn
hidden bay
Whats wrong with ol sims?
wintry solar
Stacking outlaw deep into vers dr is a time honored tradition anyway
fathom bramble
juggling a 10 million iteration sim
the tiny optimizitations you could do probably matter less than the vers damage reduction anyway
random stirrup
Whats wrong with ol sims?
nothing it's just there isnt too much decision making. the sim is good for hitting haste cap near exactly but beyond that you dont have to think beyond get vers
hidden bay
You do tho?
ripe ibex
yeah you definitely do
hidden bay
If you drop crit to get more vers but you also get mastery
Meh maybe they finally fix our stats with 11.2 rework
random stirrup
mastery and crit are kinda equally bad no
bte being insta capped with RP just for existing means crit kinda ass
fathom bramble
no
random stirrup
i mean obv crit is better
fathom bramble
idk if there is a realistic sim where they are even close
I certainly haven't seen one
ripe ibex
they sim pretty close for me in dslice
hidden bay
St mastery is dogshit
hardy vault
Didn’t rogue just get reworked in DF?
hidden bay
And crit is better in aoe last time i checked
ripe ibex
why would anyone want an outlaw rework rn
ripe ibex
feel like it’s in a pretty great spot atm
fathom bramble
I don't think that many peoplee want a full spec rework
next wedge
just KS, otherwise i like where we're at
fathom bramble
just like a few things are bad
ripe ibex
sure they could change ks but i would be pretty unhappy with a full rework
hardy vault
What do people want out of a KS rework? Basically just to not suicide with it, no?
ripe ibex
or any major gameplay loop change
random stirrup
sure they could change ks but i would be pretty unhappy with a full rework
it's coming eventually based on ion's talk
next wedge
What do people want out of a KS rework? Basically just to not suicide with it, n...
delete
random stirrup
gotta enjoy it while it lasts
fathom bramble
basically every part of KS beyond just being a long CD finisher needs to be scrapped
Lockdown, GCD lock, No kicks/defensives/utility, moving my character
hidden bay
Kir container has to go
fathom bramble
bugging out thee spellqueewindow
hidden bay
Makes no sense
ripe ibex
it’s makes a lot of sense
hidden bay
But yeah core gameplay is mostly fine beyond relying on adr to play the game
ripe ibex
and is easy to play around
hidden bay
It makes 0 sense
haughty wigeon
changing killing spree to a bladestorm clone
ripe ibex
and relying on adr is again what makes it fun
haughty wigeon
would be enough tbh
hidden bay
Says you man
haughty wigeon
personally i dont think outlaw is gonna get huge changes
haughty wigeon
if it does, well then frankly we gotta be open about it and send feedback about it
vale warren
I think the adr reliance is definitely too extreme
hidden bay
Outlaw used to have less adr and feel fine
fathom bramble
everything elsee like it has been removed from the game or massively toned down...
ripe ibex
yeah but keeping adr up almost 100% of the time is very possible and it feels amazing
ripe ibex
that would be completely lost if they changed it
hidden bay
yeah but keeping adr up almost 100% of the time is very possible and it feels am...
No its bad design
haughty wigeon
yeah but keeping adr up almost 100% of the time is very possible and it feels am...
i mean its not that simple
hidden bay
Theres reason why icy veins was made to not be like this
They just forgot that its bad and gave it to ol
haughty wigeon
having high uptime on adr leads to resource and damage drought if you drop it. but even then its more complex than that
ripe ibex
na i mean i love it
cinder relic
I don't think we should categorize things like that as "bad design" and more "it is what it is"
ripe ibex
it’s the reason i play it
cinder relic
Crackshot, and UHUH are cool and fun
fathom bramble
they sim pretty close for me in dslice
I guess it depends on where you define close, but it being 75% of the value of crit when you have almost none of it on your character makes it a pretty bad stat imo
haughty wigeon
you can like it hats fine
cinder relic
They have been cool and fun for a long time now
haughty wigeon
no one is gonna flame you for liking a thing
ripe ibex
I guess it depends on where you define close, but it being 75% of the value of c...
oh damn yeah that looks completely different from mine haha
haughty wigeon
it just this isnt the first time a spec had near 100% uptime on its main cd
blizzard either lets it stay as a option (havoc rn) or kills it completely (mage)
random stirrup
I guess it depends on where you define close, but it being 75% of the value of c...
it's because HO likes mastery less
fathom bramble
that is a kir sim
random stirrup
hmm
haughty wigeon
i rather they focus on blade rush and killing spree
ripe ibex
i just think there is plenty of specs with a major cd what’s wrong with outlaw having a niche
haughty wigeon
more than adr uptime
haughty wigeon
i just think there is plenty of specs with a major cd what’s wrong with outlaw h...
its not really a niche
ripe ibex
if you don’t like it; it is as simple as not playing it
ripe ibex
its not really a niche
what is it then
fathom bramble
a reverse niche
haughty wigeon
ya that
fathom bramble
there is no encounter type where flat damage is actually helpful
ripe ibex
outlaw is good atm
hidden bay
Its a downside in very very many ways
random stirrup
that is a kir sim
even so, based on those numbers sacrificing crit for mast to get more vers is still probably a gain, the gap between crit/mast is about the same as vers/crit
random stirrup
plus taking a small loss for more dr is nice
haughty wigeon
if you dont have access on snd spam
cinder relic
I think having a flag damage profile is a lot Less bad than ppl say it is more often than not. Fights like stix it's kinda better to be flat for example
fathom bramble
even so, based on those numbers sacrificing crit for mast to get more vers is st...
yeah there's a lot of good reasons to take a bit of a bad stat for sure
cinder relic
Outlaw also does have a niche, it's being the best pug key spec of all time
haughty wigeon
but i have issues with the health of having your main cd have near 100% uptime. i know its not a good term to use to discribe outlaw aka the og consistency flat spec
and its not as simple as reducing adr uptime from 90 to 60
cause theres alot of moving parts
that people really like
that kinda add to this
fth
crackshot
uhuh
etc etc
red zinc
uhh
random stirrup
outlaw niche is spinning frontals and cauldron beams to meme on your raid members
fathom bramble
the issue is that utilizing AR correctly gives a ton of AR CD back
hidden bay
I dont think flat dmg profile is as much of an issue as the punishment of downtime etc
fathom bramble
and this has always been true and had the same problems even when AR was 50% uptime
it's just more extreme the more uptime you have
vale warren
outlaw niche is spinning frontals and cauldron beams to meme on your raid member...
Dragging people around on swampface
cinder relic
It was a very common complained thru all of BFA too
"The spec feels terrible without AR"
and "The spec is so fucked by downtime it'll never be viable"
Even at 50% uptime levels
fathom bramble
there is a tipping point where it stops being a problem though
cinder relic
IT's just sort of a feature of restless blades, and AR
fathom bramble
and it is when you have so much AR uptime that you can lose some
without losing it all
ripe ibex
i think it’s a vrey rewarding spec that if played well feels amazing and does extremely good damage
i seen absolutely no issue with it
cinder relic
But it is for sure worse atm than it was in the past, even if the complains have always existed
hidden bay
Its fun yes
ripe ibex
and good
haughty wigeon
But it is for sure worse atm than it was in the past, even if the complains have...
ya it always existed
its just worse
ripe ibex
only a problem if you are playing bad
hidden bay
When dying is this punishing
haughty wigeon
i think the only real solution they can do
while keeping all the stuff people like
ripe ibex
i’ve had 93%+ ar uptime every key
fathom bramble
I care much more about raid encounters than I do about keys where it is significantly easier to get and maintain 90-95% uptime
haughty wigeon
i dont think outlaw needs a rework, more like a retooling on some of its pain points
fathom bramble
the littlest thing in raid which is often a mechanic you are being forced to engage with can plummet your uptime
ripe ibex
yeah well idrc about raid but it’s definitely just as possible to have near full uptime on every boss as well
haughty wigeon
but considering blizzard often listens to its largest base (casuals) we're going to see some sort of major change soon
strange plover
I'm new to rogue outlaw (old main class), I wanted to know if it was better 
HO or 
KIR?
haughty wigeon
like how er was removed due to casual complaints
ripe ibex
I'm new to rogue outlaw (old main class), I wanted to know if it was better <:ho...
try both
fathom bramble
yeah well idrc about raid but it’s definitely just as possible to have near full...
possible yes
haughty wigeon
I'm new to rogue outlaw (old main class), I wanted to know if it was better <:ho...
ho easier
kir hard but better
fathom bramble
just don't do any mechanics 👍
haughty wigeon
try both pick yoru favorite
strange plover
Ok ty all
hidden bay
The greed you need to play outlaw in raid rn is kinda wild
Compared to any other melee
haughty wigeon
aint that the truth
fathom bramble
doing no mechanics so you can do damage and greed just to be the same dps as normal melee is insanely unfair to the rogue and to your raid
tuning may cause you to still do no damage or tons of damage*
fathom bramble
it's like having a frost DK that is perma in breath
and you can outplay it on some fights or with lucky timing
haughty wigeon
and break even, even if you fumble outlaw rotationally
fathom bramble
but wee have no tools to actually deal with it in a realistic way
haughty wigeon
but we cant make consistent specs be overtuned always to fix that problem, or else you have a s1 tww shammy issue
fathom bramble
I mean if you make our baseline overtuned enough to be good on fights that present our weaknesses then people will point to the 1 ST patchwerk fight in the raid and say we are overpowered as hell
that's basically what early season 1 DF looked like
we really beat up that terros guy though
hidden bay
Gg
cinder relic
at least rogue balance these tiers has been in a good spot that no rogue spec really feels like trolling
fathom bramble
unless you make the mistake of playing fatebound like at all
hidden bay
Despite loving outlaw i feel like im hard trolling if i play in on prog
fathom bramble
fateebound felt like trolling on mugzee
and idk if playing KS would have felt more or less like trolling
frail veldt
kir hard but better
Barely and only if you play it very well
hidden bay
Even if it does good dmg its riskier, much harder and the weapon bullshit also doesnt help
cinder relic
Just be good and dont fuck up
frail veldt
But then you're a sin player
frail veldt
And you can't ego on everyone
fathom bramble
I mean for me basically no matter how it feels to play outlaw on a fight or how greedy I have to play I am going to do it
flat needle
Despite loving outlaw i feel like im hard trolling if i play in on prog
I cba about it tbh, starting mugzee progress tonight and im going in as outlaw because i feel the most confident on the spec.
fathom bramble
maybe one day they make sub or sin fun again
hidden bay
At this point
random stirrup
maybe one day they make sub or sin fun again
sub is fun!
hidden bay
It defenitely matters less what you play
haughty wigeon
or you troll by playing killing spree in prog
frail veldt
Maximizing KS uses while not dying to it is almost harder than the rest of the spec lol
haughty wigeon
so the issues end up being killing spree or fatebound being shit
cause ngl trickster is neat except for ks
flat needle
or you troll by playing killing spree in prog
killing spree in sprocketmonger progress 
fathom bramble
needing to swap to fatebound for sprocket tilts me so much
I just want to never do the boss again
hidden bay
Id rather they buff fb back up so we dont have to ks until rework
haughty wigeon
the fact bladerush was left in the dust despite sharing a row with killing spree for most of its existence
just rubs me the wrong way
fathom bramble
yeah...
haughty wigeon
keep killing spree as is for the people that like it and the fantasy /history of the spec
hidden bay
Additionally it be nice if coup stacked like tempest
haughty wigeon
just make blade rush a spender, buff it by 1000%, make combo points do more damage and generate more energy per point spent, attach all ks stuff to br
hidden bay
But thats minor
haughty wigeon
gg
hidden bay
Less things to track
haughty wigeon
thats the easiest solution that will probably make everyone happy
hidden bay
Hopefully they actually have time for class changes for the major patch
They must have been working on something else
But if they actually do changes we might see something on ptr a few weeks after .7 🤞
vivid vessel
I just want to never do the boss again
i have been dying on the fight every week
for the past 3 weeks
idk why
vivid vessel
its prolly fatebound
haughty wigeon
just to see what they have in store for 11.2
sucks we gotta wait 9 days still for meme content
fathom bramble
just make blade rush a spender, buff it by 1000%, make combo points do more dama...
and move the tree around like this
haughty wigeon
and move the tree around like this
i guess also do something about gsw and gs
so atleast all capstones do something
red zinc
by gawd thats flag music
hidden bay
Gsw just needs to be replaced with something that has actual gameplay probably
And gs could maybe not cost energy or cost less
fathom bramble
I think it wouldbe fitting for GSW to add some other way to generate opp procs
haughty wigeon
it just ends up being another button we have high uptime on
fathom bramble
GS was fine back wheen it gave decent(for the time) combo points and was on the gcd
could even take it back off restless idk
I think it's not too bad of a problem to handle
distant terrace
kir or ho for stix ?
haughty wigeon
but we already get like full cp every global or so
fathom bramble
just make GS give 5 combo points
and 2 charges
promote actually utilizing it as a button instead of just macroing
red zinc
Idk I thought it was a great button when ER still existed
Now its whatever
Can go can stay
fathom bramble
yeah
red zinc
not a massive problem
haughty wigeon
ye
fathom bramble
alternatively full send and rework it into a passive
haughty wigeon
but i dont think we should remove gs just to remove it
hidden bay
promote actually utilizing it as a button instead of just macroing
Do we need more complexity atm tho
fathom bramble
Do we need more complexity atm tho
that's a good question
perhaps the answer is to rework it into a passive idk
right side of the tree passive
left side active
stiff hawk
Bake gs into er
hidden bay
Idm it costing no energy and providing no cp idk
stiff hawk
haughty wigeon
cannonball barrage
hidden bay
Thats passive tho pmuch
fathom bramble
I think if it were to be passive it should just get merged with AR
stiff hawk
Bake rtb into er, bake kir into er, bake blade flurry into er
Bake everything into a one Button Rotation?
haughty wigeon
cannonball barrage super buffed, soft capped and has a 3min cd reduced by rb
red zinc
Yezzir
fathom bramble
fully changing it to your attacks deal 10% extra damage as ghost during adrenaline rush
or something
red zinc
cannonball barrage super buffed, soft capped and has a 3min cd reduced by rb
What kind of cd would this actually be then
red zinc
Like 4-5min?
hardy thicket
Why cant they just code KS like Blade dance? That feels like it would fix most of the issues with it
strange plover
Do you have a good weak aura for KIR (sound or what)?
hardy thicket
Allow for moving, kicking, but you are locked in animation
fathom bramble
I mean they can
who knows why they haven't
the blade dance comparison and suggestion has been around as long as outlaw has
hidden bay
Not changing it for so long in my mind can only mean they like it being like this
fathom bramble
it was seemingly intentionally left undertuned for years though
someone didn't like it
hidden bay
And or they want to change it now but cant because its a rework and reworks have to come out at set times
haughty wigeon
i mean its not a stretch to think that
justicars vengeance was a dumpster fire for years intentionally
fathom bramble
maybe they couldn't actually delete or rework it
and just left it undertuned instead for reasons
hidden bay
Makes no sense to tune it well then
torpid fiber
maybe they couldn't actually delete or rework it
stormwind is always night if they delete killing spree
fathom bramble
the things people claim to like about killing spree can probably be preserved while fixing the egregious flaws it has though
haughty wigeon
yep
that also leads to another question due to devils advocate
ks lets you kick and use utility and defensives. but still has animation lock
doesnt telelport tho
would we like that?
hardy thicket
I mean I think the talent is kinda cool just off how it plays and the animation. Its just very unfit for any type of competitive gameplay.
fathom bramble
assuming that change fixes the lockout that is breaking the spellqueuewindow then yes
that basically fixes all the flaws with KS
haughty wigeon
i hope they do that then
fathom bramble
the variable duration is still annoying to me, but I could live with it if KS doesn't kill you anymore
haughty wigeon
if they dont make br a solid choice option
rtb container probably a bug and can be fixed
so not much to talk about there
hidden bay
You guys have that time where kir came off cd and you were ksing and lost buffs?
haughty wigeon
rtb buffs i dont think they should change
fathom bramble
rtb container is responsible for most of the skill floor and convoluted stuff going on with kir though
haughty wigeon
im sure the ycan make their own cd manager track the buffs
fathom bramble
some people would not like that fix
hidden bay
Yeah
haughty wigeon
ya i know
hidden bay
But that goes for any change pmuch
haughty wigeon
but thats probably the shit ion is talking about when they singled out outlaw in the addon/weakaura interview
hidden bay
I hope so
hidden bay
Rtb is whatever tho
fathom bramble
yeah the rtb container logic is basically the only thing we have that can't be done with a simple ui buff/cd tracker
hidden bay
Kir container is whacky
fathom bramble
without kir it doesn't matter that much
haughty wigeon
i just dont get
what about outlaw requires addons to play well, beyond the rtb stuff
vivid vessel
ks lets you kick and use utility and defensives. but still has animation lock
what does anim lock mean tho
if you arent locked
fathom bramble
it means your character is doing a cool animation like blade dance
haughty wigeon
like im not crazy right? all i can think off is the rtb stuff
fathom bramble
aka nothing
stiff hawk
yeah the rtb container logic is basically the only thing we have that can't be d...
Isnt it insane, that Blizzard tooltips never mention rtb Containers
vivid vessel
so there is no anim lock tho
stiff hawk
You would sinply not know about thst
hidden bay
like im not crazy right? all i can think off is the rtb stuff
Small minmax but eb
vivid vessel
Isnt it insane, that Blizzard tooltips never mention rtb Containers
brother
blizz tooltip
doesnt even mention
adr gcd reduc
haughty wigeon
blizzard tooltips
hidden bay
Haste
vivid vessel
nor haste
haughty wigeon
are horrible
fathom bramble
Isnt it insane, that Blizzard tooltips never mention rtb Containers
to be fair basically everything in the container logic is probably a bug
hidden bay
Xdd
distant terrace
kir or ho for sticks
fathom bramble
and tooltips usually don't call out bugs or unintended functions
we have a lot of other tooltip things that are much more silly
stiff hawk
to be fair basically everything in the container logic is probably a bug
What does you make think its a Bug?
haughty wigeon
alot of how it functions
but frnakly i could see it becoming a feature
like other things
in the past
for other specs
hidden bay
The way it functions makes no sense to how rtb historically functioned
stiff hawk
Maybe it was
fathom bramble
What does you make think its a Bug?
it's extremely janky and probably not intended for extending the buffs to also preserve them
stiff hawk
But since Kir i think its intented
fathom bramble
maybe it's intended to not do what the tooltip says idk
I suppose it is possible that it is not a bug
obviously we don't know for sure
hidden bay
The way they did it makes nosense then or?
fathom bramble
which is why I said Probably and not simply is
haughty wigeon
we probably wont know until someone asks realz directly
hardy thicket
so there is no anim lock tho
I guess a visual lock would be more appropriate to describe. Just like Blade dance for Havoc.
haughty wigeon
nah im cooked rn
tidal sequoia
does1 any sim at 3mil with outlaw ?
haughty wigeon
i press keybind during ks and it wont do it until ks is done
vivid vessel
The way it functions makes no sense to how rtb historically functioned
its cto
haughty wigeon
thats what i ment
vivid vessel
that always fonctionned like that
which is prollyt not intended tho yes
but "historically"
its been like that
i could actually understand that kir kinda followed and ran with it
fathom bramble
if you go back far enough the extra buffs were always rerolled into new ones with the same duration
vivid vessel
as a functionality kinda
vivid vessel
if you go back far enough the extra buffs were always rerolled into new ones wit...
how do you mean
haughty wigeon
can also be choced up to blizzard speggety coding
fathom bramble
how do you mean
the tierset that cto is based off of
hidden bay
I meant like rtb rerolling what you have
vivid vessel
the tierset that cto is based off of
idk about the tier set but since i have known cto it has worked with this weird behavior
whcih i doubt is intended tho for sure
fathom bramble
idk about the tier set but since i have known cto it has worked with this weird ...
yeah it has
haughty wigeon
cannon ball barrage
vivid vessel
for a while now
vivid vessel
Idk tho
I think it would be better if CTO/kir would just never reroll maybe
Idk how much better it would make kir tho
It would be a bit better
hidden bay
Shouldnt they then make kir buffs freeze for 30 sec
vivid vessel
Since you would reroll
Ye it could just freeze
Not add duration
Or just less duration or whatever
But also idk
It wouldn't really solve the need for a weak aura
fathom bramble
for a while now
tierset was like if you had 28(shark), 5(TB), 8(SNC) a reasonable reroll outcome would be 36(TB), 36(BT), 5(GM), 8(shark)
fathom bramble
it's just always beeen this other weird way since the conduit
hidden bay
True
fathom bramble
instead of working like the tierset for some reason
vivid vessel
The only way you wouldn't need a weak aura anymore is if your buffs would get rerolled anyway
But that makes kir way less interesting tho
And way less strong
Idk how to balance it that way
I really like the fact kir can do this forcing buffs thing
Like lock 3 buffs into insta roll
To get more
fathom bramble
KIR could change thee icons of the buffs and only remove them if you gain the buff from rerolling into it
fathom bramble
change the icon of the buff that it extends so you can tell which ones are which
fathom bramble
and only make you lose it if you gain the buff from casting RTB so there is no weirdness going on
vivid vessel
fathom bramble
just a strict rule
vivid vessel
when its so simple
vivid vessel
this seems like such a simple solution tbf
but ye i think they should make it clearer anyway it would work
but also this is like
so far down my list of priorities with outlaw rn
so many more things more concerning no?
fathom bramble
yeah
fathom bramble
are you ready for the timeline reminder to be a separate program/overlay?
vivid vessel
blizz didnt provide a good way to understand how this thing owkrs but its fixable with weak auras
and weak auras are there for a while
vivid vessel
are you ready for the timeline reminder to be a separate program/overlay?
i mean
fathom bramble
I think if they ever do go for the killing blow they need to just hide boss events from addons
fathom bramble
and not mess with player ui stuff
vivid vessel
Would never work for world first guilds
Cause they are all in lan
With external stuffs
For example
fathom bramble
timeline reminder type stuff will 100% always exist
hidden bay
so far down my list of priorities with outlaw rn
True
fathom bramble
it could just be a youtube video you hit play on when the boss starts
unironically
vivid vessel
You can have something that capture each person cool down in obs, and reconstruct a omnicd
That way
Boss reminders could be anything
That's so easy
And external macros for mechs and assignment
random stirrup
it could just be a youtube video you hit play on when the boss starts
ye I really hope we keep current timeline reminder functionality because this sort of thing would suck
vivid vessel
Could be
hidden bay
Hopefully fights are easy enough you dont need this degen shit
fathom bramble
overlays will take overe if they ever hit the bug addon nukee
limpid hound
!fuu
ornate heathBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
vivid vessel
It wouldn't be hard at all
fathom bramble
and it would be ifinitely more annoying and frustrating to engage with
hidden bay
This is too cooked
vivid vessel
It's literally not fixable
Like you would legit just have your assignment overlay thingy
And you would press the key
And it would do things
fathom bramble
maybe don't have 100 assignments go out at once that are actually flexible
vivid vessel
It doesn't need to know shi about the game
fathom bramble
the game should be hard assigning bombs to soak
hidden bay
Like sprocket kinda
vivid vessel
like for example the balls on fyrakk
hidden bay
Cept only one person can do it
fierce yarrow
quick question why does my "Tricks of Trade" makro work sometimes and sometimes not? (I got the WA for that too)
"#showtooltip Tricks of the Trade
/click AutoTankMisdirect"
?
fathom bramble
yeah
vivid vessel
would work for basically anything
fathom bramble
you just hit 1 button that coordinatees across clients and it works
vivid vessel
that is an assign like that
ye
so like
how do they fix that lol
its not possible
hidden bay
Insta lfg if my guild requires to use some bullshit external software for prog
fathom bramble
make all the fyrakk orbs 1 color
so people don't need to and would gain no benefit from doing that
vivid vessel
so people don't need to and would gain no benefit from doing that
ye
i think the good assigns
are the ones you pre do
like the gally soaks
vivid vessel
yep
fathom bramble
beyond like the convenience of boss timers
vivid vessel
great boss
i dont even look at any timer
legit just vibes
its such a good boss
so bad its too easy
cause the design
is top nothc imo
perfect boss
and the mechanics are pretty unique
the hype of watching liquid maange to do the bait frontal > soak big aoes > soak small aoes
movement
you remember
that was so fucking cool to see
20 people coordinating together but without an assignment weak aura
How cooll
Just make mechanics like these
remote pecan
Blizzards perspective on WAs and addons is backwards anyway. They think they have to kill the addons so they can design bosses differently.
But if they just designed bosses differently in a way ppl didn't need WAs to solve the mechanics then they'd stop being made. 
hidden bay
Nah
If you give addons free reign
They go waaaaay overboard
Literally painting arenas even on easy encounters
tawny adder
My hope is they bring more "bullet hell" bosses like Rashok. God I loved that fight
hidden bay
And ppl make was for even trivial mechanics
fathom bramble
most of the problematic WAs come from a debuff going out that cannot be hard assigned
with so little time or so much precision that you must use a WA for it
hidden bay
Maybe this could have worked in the past but gaming is so optimized now
fathom bramble
that style of mechanic can just be gone
like imagine if sprocket mines were not colored
you wouldn't have some evil addon doing it
you would have YOUR mine that you soak at some specific spot or spots of the fight
remote pecan
Or even if the game assigned mines to specific people instead.
fathom bramble
some people would still use an addon sure, but like
the current version almost requires an addon
and that's just insane
vivid vessel
Literally painting arenas even on easy encounters
but we are litteraly talking about an end boss rn
where tis not the case
gally wix
0 addon
vivid vessel
you would have YOUR mine that you soak at some specific spot or spots of the fig...
yep
I have been using this example for a while now
But you remember I think the name is rohkaloh
That boss in sl
The clock boss
You had soaks for like
A bunch of players
To do at the same time
fathom bramble
yeah
vivid vessel
Except you were assigned ONE soak
That was good
It's how these type of mechanics should be handled imo
fathom bramble
and then you had the groups of people assigned to stand on sigils WA
that always broke for someone
👍
vivid vessel
And jailer
I always thought
The boss would have been great
If you were assigned a hole
fathom bramble
jailer holes should have been personal too