outlaw

[daring oxide]

its actually more dead then that

i think accurate would be like 5mil?

or 10mil max?

no way they have 100mil

real players probably like 5mil active players

rest are just bots

beep boop

[mighty pivot]

wow peaked at 10mil or so in wotlk, no way it's anywhere near that

[daring oxide]

yeah

[mighty pivot]

so this 100 mil figure is just...

[daring oxide]

its just a wowhead comment

[wintry solar]

Imagine how big the game itself would be tho...

[daring oxide]

if they had 100mil active subs

[shell fossil]

well if u think about it relatively vs historical events thats still like

[mighty pivot]

imagine how many more outlaw rogues there would be. At least 50 more

[daring oxide]

there would be no development issues like we have atm

cos they would have way more staff

[shell fossil]

there's at least a state or three's worth of active players

[daring oxide]

with way more money to spend

game would be very high quality

need to save money to pay dividends ya know

[wintry solar]

The new player experience would actually be good

[shell fossil]

wotlk is like the entire population of new jersey using google maths

[wintry solar]

That's a lot of DKs doing it for the nookie

[shell fossil]

imagine scrolling by just to make ppl read that

[wintry solar]

Dks aren't people

We know this

They're simply fotm rerollers

Because theres only like

9 dks

[inner meadow]

i got 19700 vers and 13555 haste, should i run vers pot or haste?

[rapid grail]

i ahve a question is that fien if i macro 2 trinkets witrh adrenalin rush?

2 on use trinket

[sour vault]

that's a bold assumption. Would the player base drive the quality up in this case, or would it be the quality attracting the player base? I don't think the former would ever happen in any big game dev studio.

[azure vortex]

Im sorry bro

[inner meadow]

hate when i happens

[wintry solar]

Tell him to not kick into your kidney next time

Just be a nuisance

[rapid grail]

?

[wintry solar]

No

Bad idea

[azure vortex]

bro i gave up my kidney to be able to throw that kidney shot

[rapid grail]

can i know why?

[wintry solar]

He's so ungrateful smh

[wintry solar]

You press adr on cooldown even when in stealth, so you have the chance to not even have a crackshot window because using a trinket in stealth doesn't grant subterfuge. You can only use one on use at a time so there's a weird 30 seconds before you'd press the button again assuming you want them both as soon as possible. And it also just doesn't line up.

[proven ocean]

https://tenor.com/view/nuh-uh-cat-ghoul-gif-15685393113271845735

[wintry solar]

https://tenor.com/view/kitty-yes-kitten-cat-cute-gif-4479122443708612550

[rapid grail]

hmmm not bad idea

[rapid grail]

anyweay also my trinekts 1 of them ahve 1.30 cd and other one 2min

[wintry solar]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-cat-nodding-it's-head-cutest-cat-nodding-it's-head-yes-gif-11967594182408448469

[rapid grail]

i should use the lower cooldown one first?

[wintry solar]

Probably depends on the situation. I also don't know what trinkets you have.

[hollow harness]

why does outlaw feels sometimes super slow? like 3-4 seconds to next cast?

[blissful idol]

no adre?

[frank finch]

alot of new faces

[wintry solar]

I have neither of those

[rapid grail]

:)))

i ahve them on myth track but still didnt upgrade it

[wintry solar]

I'm a house of cards/signet gamer

[rapid grail]

very nice xD

[wintry solar]

I've no idea which one is better tbh and I don't want to steer you wrong

HOWEVER

I will anyway

Spare keys first because longer CD

Damn those are actually sick

And to think I spent my dinar on capo

[wintry solar]

I think spare keys is better anyway

[dire stump]

hi gang, new outlaw rogue here

little confused with the roles. im going trickster outlaw rogue and there doesnt seem to be an option for that

[remote pike]

https://tenor.com/view/new-guy-serious-stare-gif-14377028

[wintry solar]

Wdym

[dire stump]

in this discord

id:customize

[wintry solar]

Both hero trees congregate in this channel

That's just representation

Like a flag or whatever

[dire stump]

oh i see

well wait i see you have the role:

but its not selectable i nthe other channel

[wintry solar]

That's because I'm better

Jk

One sec

[dire stump]

probably, i jsut started like. . . 3 days ago xd

been enjoying the leveling experience and i think i have my dps rotation down pat now.

havent pvp'd or anything - i got this link from someone in the WoW official discord

[wintry solar]

I honestly think it's random

Because that's what you have

But your name is yellow and you have the trickster emoji and that's good enough

[wintry solar]

You pvp?

[dire stump]

i traditionally have been a more pvp focused player

its def something i want to check out and do in wow

[wintry solar]

Oh my sweet summer child

#pvp

There you go

[warped stump]

Assa or Outlaw currently stronger for PvE?

[dire stump]

😂 whats this mean?

[mellow thicket]

Outlaw keys, lol

[warped stump]

Murlok.io doesnt really help right now lol

[dire stump]

rogue not good for pvp?

[vivid vessel]

both

[wintry solar]

Rogue is great for pvp

[mellow thicket]

Damn it Zac lol

[warped stump]

which one would you consider more fun to play yourself?

[wintry solar]

But outlaw is rough around the edges atm

[vivid vessel]

oultaw of course but

[mellow thicket]

Killing spree is rough around the edges

[vivid vessel]

there is killing spree

yiu needd to deal with

so

[dire stump]

yeah ive been noticing just from leveling the amount of set up to get your dmg going is a little steeper than other classes

whats wrong with KS?

[wintry solar]

It kills you in pve

[dire stump]

oh, so dont use it?

[wintry solar]

You have to

[mellow thicket]

Is it worth using vanish without the killing spree finisher amp, outside of saving adrenaline rush cooldown?

[wintry solar]

Are you radicalized yet?

[mellow thicket]

Inshallah

[wintry solar]

Depends on the cooldown of KS but generally yes

If it's like, 20 seconds or more I'd just send the vanish

[prisma yarrow]

kir better overall for bad rng right?

[mellow thicket]

Yeah was looking over the iteration that solo sent in theory craft and noticed, vanish was mostly sent with killing spree behind it by 2 to 5 GCD’s, outside of trying to save ADR or hitting 2 stacks of vanish

[prisma yarrow]

is it normal even if HO with 17-18% haste with bad rng im starving

[wintry solar]

Yeah HO likes more haste this tier

[mellow thicket]

I know some ppl like to run KIR haste for HO

also the sim Wizards that say the all mighty sim will provide the answer.

[dire stump]

what is KIR?

[mellow thicket]

Keep it rolling

Extends a good roll set

[wintry solar]

You can drop Ghostly Strike if you want lower haste

[prisma yarrow]

i feel like i need more than 15% haste to play HO

[wintry solar]

But it's normal

[prisma yarrow]

atleast 17-18

[wintry solar]

Yeah

I got 20

Against my will tbf

[mellow thicket]

how do you find all the !commands available in a channel?

[lime lake]

https://tenor.com/view/you-don't-invincible-omni-man-jk-simmons-that's-the-neat-thing-gif-4390372980992221432

[mellow thicket]

!bet

[wintry solar]

!explode

[mellow thicket]

!boom

[wintry solar]

Well we tried

[mellow thicket]

hahaha

[wintry solar]

And we failed miserably

The lesson here is to never do your best

[mellow thicket]

idk about you but i fail fabulously

[wintry solar]

Pvp makes me sweat too much to be fabulous

[rapid grail]

y im agrree with you

but i will teest 2 on sue and let you guys know

[mellow thicket]

i feel like i need to level another outlaw rogue, to get vault excitement again

[topaz spoke]

!bug

[ornate heath]

[Outlaw bug Thread](#1276315296159760467 message)

[polar niche]

!bug

[ornate heath]

[Outlaw bug Thread](#1276315296159760467 message)

[polar niche]

!subterfuge

[hot olive]

16 TOP pug adventure

[sour vault]

what is dynamic overall damage?

[hot olive]

he was mad i was killing his funnel

[strong cargo]

He is so mad lol

[pearl trout]

you stole his overall, he mad lol

[polar niche]

Guys i have a problem whit subterfuge

Can someone help me?

[sour vault]

you're going to have to be more specific. It sounds pretty exotic so its very probable someone might be able to help if you can accept the problem might be you

[mellow thicket]

how does your damage not matter?

[hot olive]

idk

killing souls maybe

[polar niche]

I have the same cast of vanish

[mellow thicket]

arcane mage crys in prio damage

[polar niche]

But different uptime

[hot olive]

i hate mage and boomie

[mellow thicket]

wait who was getting PI in that key?

[vivid vessel]

different time

[hot olive]

not me

[polar niche]

Of subterfuge

[mellow thicket]

thats wild!

[vivid vessel]

• subnterfuge also comes form srestealth

[covert kestrel]

That is fucking hilarious

[mellow thicket]

did you time it

[polar niche]

Explain if you can zac,

Please

At sprocketmonger

[vivid vessel]

well the guy can have the same casts but a shorter kill timer

will lead to more uiptiome

[sour vault]

that's a very probable explanation really

[mellow thicket]

imagine doing maintenance at the end of a major patch on a friday

[sour vault]

I don't think sprocketmonger allows for restealthing outside of vanish, not sure?

[polar niche]

Same timer

4 min

[dire stump]

i was a little confused with that too. whats the maintenance for?

[polar niche]

I put the 2 photo for comparision

[vivid vessel]

sned your log

[covert kestrel]

KS is getting fixed and reworking trickster and fatebound trees to be more thematic and better gameplay

[lime lake]

[polar niche]

In private?

[vivid vessel]

just here

[polar niche]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/BC3tYw4NX8ZgPph2?fight=12&type=auras&source=46

My rl cut the same segment whit the other guy

[vivid vessel]

send the other log aswell

[mellow thicket]

zac do you mostly look at timeline when you do a log review?

[polar niche]

Nvm

[vivid vessel]

yes bvut also i dont do log reviews

cause outlaw logs are annoying

[jaunty moat]

hi, new to outlaw. Is this WA recommended ? https://wago.io/Pd53s_NPU . Does it include RTB rules ?

[polar niche]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/compare/9YRvQkJfz6DrK3G8/BC3tYw4NX8ZgPph2?fight=40&type=auras&source=16%2C46&start=8416509%2C10199032&end=8665895%2C10448418

This is the compare

Whit the first

He cut at 4

He use vanish more

Than me

3 more Times

[vivid vessel]

he does

[polar niche]

Nvm

[vivid vessel]

5

[polar niche]

I’m simply bad

[near rock]

log reviews blow ass

[polar niche]

🤓

[mellow thicket]

not bad, you found the problem, just vanish more

[near rock]

im too stupid to decipher my own log

[hot olive]

having good uptime on that boss is hard

[late swallow]

Damn how did you know my name is Log Reviews

[near rock]

i just press buttons

[hot olive]

im noob

[sour vault]

at least we found the difference :)

[covert kestrel]

Better to use one of the class packs or zacs RtB tracker and just learn the rules of which build you're playing from #outlaw-faq it might be tough to remember at first but much better than relying on a wa that may or may not be updated in the future

[late swallow]

[covert kestrel]

[prisma yarrow]

@vivid vessel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3lDWJltffs&list=RDo3lDWJltffs&start_radio=1

underrated outlaw song

[polar niche]

Thanks all

[lime lake]

np

[polar niche]

I love you guys

Zac ti do il sub questo mese

[vivid vessel]

is that spanish

i dont speak spanish cuh

[polar niche]

And if you want I can send you a free feet pick

[covert kestrel]

Italian

[polar niche]

Don’t joke

[vivid vessel]

i would appreciate it ty

[mellow thicket]

zero, what bug did you find and why did you do it on a friday lol

[polar niche]

It’s italian

[vivid vessel]

im french brotherman

i dont speak italian either

[mellow thicket]

gerlami

[polar niche]

✅

I know

[vivid vessel]

its not too bad

[mellow thicket]

that french rap is on a higher level though

[dire stump]

any links to patch notes?

[reef forge]

is swapping to sub rogue for rookery last boss a viable option?

like is the run back not insane

[mellow thicket]

where?

[lime lake]

[dire stump]

for the KS reworks

[lime lake]

@covert kestrel look what you did

[red zinc]

mfs too gullible

[lime lake]

https://tenor.com/view/epic-embed-fail-ryan-gosling-cereal-embed-failure-laugh-at-this-user-gif-20627924

[subtle field]

when does vers dr start kicking in? like in keys will there be a big dmg difference between having 31% vers or 41%?

[red zinc]

22 thousand afaik

[subtle field]

oh snap

[red zinc]

or 18

dont remember

[dire stump]

aw man i got, got

😔

im the new guy that was low hanging fruit @covert kestrel

[red zinc]

should be correct didnt verify

[dire stump]

ok so something im not finding in the #outlaw-faq . . . addons - anything outside of the standard addons that i should look out for? i got nug combo meter and its been a big help - anything else you guys recommend?

[subtle field]

is this accurate?

[shell fossil]

saw somewhere that rookery is better with ghostly strike over precise cuts for ho at least

[pearl trout]

23400

[shell fossil]

i would agree tbh

[red zinc]

huh

[subtle field]

sheeet, im at 18000 rn. but just came back to outlaw from playing assa

[red zinc]

pc is great in that dungeon

the double miniboss pull value kinda crazy

and crushers

[shell fossil]

🤔

i run pc in every other dungeon tbh just tried it today

the rookery trash in a 13 isn't that spicy though so idk

also haven't seen anyone in our region complete the double miniboss pull with lust if that's what your talking about so idk

[covert kestrel]

just run 1fth so you get both

[keen grotto]

!guide

[ornate heath]

Outlaw Guides:
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/outlaw-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/outlaw-rogue-pve-dps-guide
Method: https://www.method.gg/guides/outlaw-rogue

[past falcon]

which minibosses

[covert kestrel]

#outlaw-faq

[shell fossil]

he's either talking about the last two packs before the last boss or that room before 2nd boss some people try to chainpull afaiu

[strong cargo]

I guess 2 big boys before 2nd boss

[shell fossil]

ye

[keen grotto]

[shell fossil]

theres a lot of rot damage from two consuming voidstones(lmao) at the end*** so i figured he meant before 2nd

[past falcon]

gotcha

[shell fossil]

its a lot of hard stops with the two crushers and casters so i always see it asplode(tbh last time i tried it was 10s-11s tho)

[past falcon]

safe thing to do is just get casters to 50% and then go diffusers

but its the bomb on someone else that kills me more than the rot

[shell fossil]

yeah the attemps i see try to rip the whole thing at once

[runic bough]

Zomb do you feel like you have some outlaw power after eating French tacos?

Check for spiderman reflexes

https://tenor.com/view/coroca-reflexes-gif-19254821

@craggy barn

[covert kestrel]

fun fact tobey did actually catch all that food on the tray, no cgi

[heavy shadow]

What spec are people doing visions with?

Very quickly realized KS is a no no 😄

HO Fatebound?

[mellow thicket]

is it fazed or flawless form that amps our damage in aoe?

[vale warren]

Flawless form is what gives us nimble flurry if that's what you're asking

[mellow thicket]

what is the reason we killing spree before vanish?

is that for the fazed debuff?

[gaunt phoenix]

bc you cant ks during stealth you try not to lose ks cdr

if you dont hold vanish based on ks cd then you lose a ton of ks casts

[subtle field]

is there a way to get more then 4 supercharges, pretty sure I have seen zac get an extra, at the start of a dungeon

[mellow thicket]

Is KS providing some form of damage amp during vanish?

[gaunt phoenix]

you start with 2 from overworld and then get 2 more after key bubble

[craggy barn]

wont know until i get back

[mellow thicket]

outside of spreading fazed to most targets it hits

[gaunt phoenix]

ks gives a flawless form stack and then gives 2 unseen blades, when consumed they also give flawless form

i think that you are thinking we are trying to align ks with vanish but this is not true

you are simply trying not to lose cooldown reduction on ks

you vanish normally but if ks cooldown is under 20s or so then you try not to vanish

ks is just really strong to apply unseen blades and build to coup de grace so you dont want to lose casts

[keen belfry]

gm chat

dont wanna work anymore tday

might play wow

[mellow thicket]

i understand. I am a dirty Hekili user and tinker, and changed the vanish if KS.cd > 30 and converted the line to ( active_enemies >= 2 & active_dot.fazed >= 2 & dot.fazed.remains > 4) | ( active_enemies = 1 & dot.fazed.remains > 4) and output seems better, granted the dot.fazed.remains is kind of weak and more of a shot in the dark.
Only oddity is DPS output increased for AOE.

Gratned i am no where near the speed of a SIM

[gaunt phoenix]

if you mean your dps in game then there is no way to attribute your results to your condition unless you run thousands of flawless trials

Which is what simc is for

[mellow thicket]

yeah, haven't quite figured out how to change the line, in SIMC

[runic bough]

Killing spree flurries with bf

So it could add aoe

But not much since it's weak

But still I'd rather use ks in aoe

I feel like it's useless on single target

Can't wait til season over we get ks removed or I reroll again

[mellow thicket]

your saying you get no value in ST with killing spree?

or useless value?

[valid kindle]

which isn't remotely true

[runic bough]

Well its a bad ability they force us to use it for the cdr I don't think it does anything else

[past falcon]

huh

it resets cd on stacking unseen blade

[runic bough]

Yeah I don't like hero trees for outlaw either so I'm biased

[mellow thicket]

so it allows for more coup de grace?

[past falcon]

this is the entire point

[keen belfry]

poop de grace

[mellow thicket]

lol

[past falcon]

otherwise unseen blade is on a 1x every 20s cd

ks lets you get to 3 much faster

[keen belfry]

uploaded a new video @glass mortar

[past falcon]

then you hit coup de grace

and then u repeat

[valid kindle]

saying it's a shit ability and saying it does nothing st are very different things

[keen belfry]

killing spree is shit but it do do thing

[valid kindle]

it's a shit ability but it's also very impactful

the fact that both of those are true is what makes it worse

cause just not pressing it sucks

[covert kestrel]

thats just ryu don't mind him

[mellow thicket]

so, if its a shit ability in ST, wouldnt it be worth to send it at low cp in ST, to get the value stated above faster?

[valid kindle]

you will send it at low cp when it'd be dangerous to send a full one

[past falcon]

no bc then ur losing out on restless blades

[gaunt phoenix]

it is worth at normal cp though a low cp is not too much of a loss if you fear death

[mellow thicket]

i fear no death lol

[gaunt phoenix]

on like dfc 3rd boss you have to send it at low cp unless the tank moves

[random stirrup]

it's one of our highest damaging abilities per cast lol

it's not shit in st

[mellow thicket]

restless blades time balances /cancels out with the time taken to full killing spree?

ST only

[past falcon]

what

its 1s per combo point spent

if u ks at 1cp vs ks at 5-7cp that is a noticeable difference

[gaunt phoenix]

its prob more like the dmg is just worth it, the dpet is only beaten by a crackshot

[vivid vessel]

@fallen knot

[random stirrup]

[vivid vessel]

people in 10s are ruthless ngl

[vale warren]

Why are you reading anything paladins say

[frank finch]

ur the tank?

[shell fossil]

i think im gonna track fazed like dn and see if i can get by without the unseen blade wa tomorrow

[runic bough]

If u think ks does a lot of damage your just coping. It should be more than bte for the risk it is to killing us.

[vivid vessel]

yes

[vale warren]

What's dn

[shell fossil]

🥺

[frank finch]

when am we gonna see those highlights on your youtube

[random stirrup]

it is more than bte except in crackshot

[past falcon]

deez nuts

[runic bough]

Nah

[verbal fjord]

boys i know i ask to much with that But https://de.warcraftlogs.com/reports/HjAQJzgrmqR9Pcn1?fight=last can someone tell me how can i improve my ar uptime

[keen belfry]

i miss the old ryu

[runic bough]

It takes 5 crit hits of ks to be just 1 normal crit of bte

[verbal fjord]

i feel like fckin top is to so ass for having a high uptime

and i feel like 86% uptime is bad aswell

[runic bough]

Ks is only strong when we have lust and it's active time is lower.

[random stirrup]

it's almost equal to a crackshot bte even

[shell fossil]

the mage wing can get a little weird for sure as long as you have some adrenaline rush for the boss though

[shell fossil]

cancelaura and cast snd on a macro for restless blades procs hanestly

[vale warren]

That's counting both crackshot and regular bte no?

[bright crane]

What does ChatGPT say

I wonder if you can get ChatGPT to do log analysis

[vale warren]

@grok explain

[verbal fjord]

i actually asked if its worth

[bright crane]

That’d actually be hilarious

[random stirrup]

ye but you cast many more crackshot btes than regular btes

[glass mortar]

Brother what are u even saying

[verbal fjord]

and i need it does someone actually have the macro for it ?

[glass mortar]

This is all just cooked

Ksprees average damage per cast is like 5m

That's like 3 btes

[random stirrup]

#showtooltip Slice and Dice
/cancelaura Slice and Dice
/cast Slice and Dice

[glass mortar]

U dont compare it this way because it takes more time

[keen belfry]

my girl asking if i need top, i said nah i need a priory ‼️ ‼️

[verbal fjord]

so i just spam it in my free time ?

[glass mortar]

But even accounting for that is nearly the same dpet as crackshotting

[shell fossil]

i was tapping it hella on rik reverb today vvvvvv

[glass mortar]

U cant feel this out we can literally see the math

[past falcon]

who is asking u this

[glass mortar]

The button sucks. The problem isn't it's damage

[keen belfry]

must be diff awang not sure

[glass mortar]

[sullen narwhal]

It's actually insane how they still havent done anything about outlaw bad secondary scaling

Or at least not nearly enough

[bright crane]

Is it actually insane

[glass mortar]

Last time they did we got the haste tax

[past falcon]

shh they'll take away our vers

[glass mortar]

Maybe we'd prefer if they just give up

[sullen narwhal]

Because they did it in a stupid way

[bright crane]

It’s freakin LOCO

[runic bough]

We have talked about this a million times

[random stirrup]

if you do equal damage as a vers spec you're just getting the best of both worlds

[bright crane]

Loco in the cabesa

[random stirrup]

being a vers spec is op

[runic bough]

Don't expect any tuning unless we get another article

U know dis

[bright crane]

100% vers spec all the way

Legit don’t care mastery sucks for us

[sullen narwhal]

Versa shouldn't even be a pve stat

[random stirrup]

secondary stat complainers when outlaw just gets to have 50% vers and be immortal

[vale warren]

If your last finisher consumed supercharger you can spam it more

[sullen narwhal]

It should be a pure pvp stat that goes on pvp gear like resilliance used to

[bright crane]

Why

[random stirrup]

while true, as long as it remains in PVE its busted

[sullen narwhal]

Because it's boring af, and literally impossible to make interesting in any way

It's literally primary stats 2.0

[shell fossil]

idk how you even get past 18k 21k (pot etc) vers with the current gear options

[vale warren]

Vers is the most fun stat because being dead is not fun

[keen belfry]

i do think id trade fun secondaries for immortal trade off tbh, but i love being vers spec

[sullen narwhal]

Also, without versa, defensives, especially for tanks could actually be properly balanced

[runic bough]

Wow is too restricted to really have fun stat testing lol

[random stirrup]

I used to think secondaries were fun until zac talked about how it makes the spec feel not fun outside of lust/high ilvl

outlaw is the same amount of fun regardless of gear (so long as ur haste tax is met)

play enh with 0% haste

or any caster

[sullen narwhal]

Versa is basically the only stat that provides passive damage reduction, which is crazy

[vale warren]

Prot warrior with no haste so you have to take all the shield block talents

[keen belfry]

but like, its fun feeling like you gain power while gearing

[runic bough]

What makes outlaw feel strong as we gear up?

[sullen narwhal]

Nothing really

[runic bough]

[sullen narwhal]

Just haste initially

Haste is always nice, until it isn't for energy specs

[keen belfry]

i play enhance and casters that need haste, i enjoy the "oh man i just equipped 5k haste ring this feels jizz"

[runic bough]

Yeah we don't feel stronger at all as we gear up

[shell fossil]

i mean...mastery classes really aren't any better

[random stirrup]

ya but ilvl is power regardless

[bright crane]

Being hoss hog boss is what

[stiff glade]

It's a bit of an issue with specs that scale heavily off haste, where they just feel slow and bad to play in S1 of an expansion

[runic bough]

Our dmg just goes up on overall

[shell fossil]

we just have a lot of good abilities and goop on restless blades

[stiff glade]

And then gradually faster the more secondaries you get in S2 and S3

[random stirrup]

spec not being really fun until season 3 of an expac when you're completely glucked out on all secondaries is bad

[stiff glade]

How lame is it going from S3/S4 with hella haste to S1 of the next expansion, feeling slow af?

[keen belfry]

does this exist tho

[stiff glade]

Idk, I'm glad we don't do that

[sullen walrus]

which rune for outlaw rogue ?

kir build

[bright crane]

Rune?

[sullen walrus]

echoing void or void ritual?

[keen belfry]

s1 enhance (secondaries btter than main stat) felt quite fun and i wasnt gluckglucked on secondaries

[sullen walrus]

for helmet

[bright crane]

Pins

[modern tapir]

it was only really bad when it was going from BFA S4 to SL S1

[shell fossil]

gushing wound if u like ur fellow gamers

[random stirrup]

i think spriest isn't fun until later in expac when u really get some haste

[stiff glade]

I played a bit of mage in DF S4 and it felt fun and fast, and then TWW S1 rolled up and it got really boring really quickly

[sullen walrus]

gushing wound ?

or void ritual?

[sullen narwhal]

S priest is just not very fun period, haste makes it better, but honestly, if a spec isn't very fun s1, you can't really blame it on stats

[frail veldt]

nah

[random stirrup]

assa feels MILES better in raid now once you have a good base of crit and haste

[frail veldt]

different stats between pvp and pve is kinda lame

[random stirrup]

it's still a bit snoozer but at least you have way more resources

[sullen narwhal]

Enhance sham is fun even at low haste for example

[frail veldt]

I dont think there should be as many gear gates between content variants

you should be able to gear once for all the content

[sullen narwhal]

Ok, then just get rid of versa

[frail veldt]

and replace it with what

[sullen narwhal]

Nothing, or whatever they can come up with

[frail veldt]

they came up with versa

you have now replaced versa

with versa

[sullen narwhal]

Ok

[random stirrup]

I think vers being a thing in PVE is bad for balancing

[sullen narwhal]

this is just a blatantly bs argument.

[random stirrup]

some specs just having 20% passive dr is dumb

compare assa tankiness to outlaw

[sullen narwhal]

Oh boy, if we replace this stat they're gonna make the same stat again. Like what?

[frail veldt]

well versa being any specs best stat is more the issue

not like versa is a problem

on most specs versa functions correctly

it is a defensive stat you can choose to take some of at a dps loss to be tankier

and I dont think theres an issue with that

[sullen narwhal]

Well, i think there is

[frail veldt]

it just so happens that blizzard SUCKS at balancing some specs and vers is their best stat

if vers wasnt any specs best stat

theres really nothing to complain about

[sullen narwhal]

Because the game isn't just about dps, tanking is also a thing, and a stat that makes you passively more tanky for no reason is not very good

[frail veldt]

its a tradeoff

[sullen narwhal]

Especially if it's not even fun in any way

[frail veldt]

tradeoffs are healthy in a game

[shell fossil]

idk bigger issue with uncapped aoe, burst specs winning the season tbh

[sullen narwhal]

That's just an over generalized statement

[frail veldt]

what other spec has vers as their main stat right now

[sullen narwhal]

Tradeoffs and changes just for the sake of it are not necessarily good

[frail veldt]

like I said, the existence of a stat that is a dps loss but offers tankiness and allows you to design your character around the comp/level of content youre doing isnt a bad thing imo

it only becomes a problem when that isnt a choice

and vers is your highest dps stat

so you get to be tanky for no tradeoff

thats where the issue lies

[sullen narwhal]

Or they could just increase the base defensiveness to make up for the loss of versa

Tah dah

[sharp hinge]

what about pvp

[frail veldt]

youd still want vers though cuz if everyone just got more tanky then youd all just do higher content haha

[sullen narwhal]

Pvp can have it's own stat

[frail veldt]

I mean theres still a point where you want to choose to be tankier sometimes

esp at high keys

thats literally what https://not-even-close.com/ is for

[sullen narwhal]

You're just hearing what you wanna hear, it's pretty obvious that when i pointed out the increase in defensiveness it would be because versa was gone

Not that you have both

[frail veldt]

well the point is that its a choice you make as the player

to be tankier

at the cost of dps

giving everyone just X amount more DR doesnt provide that at all

[sullen narwhal]

i know, i said i don't think that's a good thing already

[frail veldt]

youve now just removed a tool from the player, and now if your spec isnt tuned to survive high content you cant even adjust your stats to compensate

[unkempt cypress]

Enough bickering you two

[stiff glade]

What is the problem with it exactly?

[frail veldt]

he doesnt like that you can make yourself tankier with a stat I think

passively

[stiff glade]

Well yeah, but why?

[frail veldt]

idk

its not clear

[stiff glade]

[frail veldt]

What other specs want vers as their best stat in pve rn?

is outlaw the only one?

it used to be WW but that got fixed

[sharp hinge]

people are just bored, so theyre finding shit to complain about

[shell fossil]

tank yankin on floodgate

[frail veldt]

out of all the things to complain about in wow

lol

[glass mortar]

Sub and fire mage both like vers

Idt it's there best stat tho

[red zinc]

Ive actually not looked at this at all this season

[frail veldt]

same actually hahahaha

[shell fossil]

it's not a bad stat for high apm specs

[red zinc]

Not come close to a oneshot once honestly

[frail veldt]

I dont think there are many of them

[red zinc]

i guess having off gcd feint makes you less dependent

[stiff glade]

Doesn't really seem like blizz minds at all after the hunter rework where they made mastery give them tankiness as well

[frail veldt]

theres healer checks but they arent large 1 shots

usually pulsing damage

[stiff glade]

Seems like they want tankiness from stats to be a thing

[glass mortar]

Well literally just survival

[red zinc]

you just press feint regardless instead of needing to check that its required

[glass mortar]

And a spec like survival

[frail veldt]

I thought destro too

or is that old

[glass mortar]

Probably deserves some tankyness added on over it

[stiff glade]

I guess they should have some survivability lol

[glass mortar]

Destro has had that forever

[red zinc]

naw nowae destro likes vers

[glass mortar]

But yes destros does too

[shell fossil]

lot of classes want to go evenish after a breakpoint i think

[glass mortar]

It's rng dr tho

[stiff glade]

Still though, could have done that many other ways, but they chose to bake it into a stat

[vale warren]

Not highest for either of them on simc at least

[frail veldt]

Yeah I think its fine for vers to be decent for a spec but it should come at a tradeoff

so probably should be at MOST 3rd best stat

and tbh for most specs thats the case I think

theres a reason vers gear gets passed on hahaha

[stiff glade]

Makes sense for someone to want vers though, or else all high vers gear would be garbage for everyone

[shell fossil]

there's definitely a cook for getting vers out of pve to an extent but giving complicated specs like outlaw more room for error is good

[stiff glade]

They could also make vers diminishing returns be heavier so no one would want to stack it like we do

Like after the value of it drops drastically after 30% or something

[vale warren]

Only other specs with highest stat vers are brewmaster and deathbringer bdk

[stiff glade]

Sounds a bit messy, but it would be an easy fix to keep it from ruining tankiness balance

Or they could just cap the defensiveness at 10-15% or something like that

Idk

[vale warren]

We'd still stack it in season 1-2 though

[keen belfry]

specs like vers rn means they like all stats decently enough that going into dr for other stats is less dps right?

thats how i interpret it

[stiff glade]

It's a bit of a filler stat yea

[paper pumice]

yo , Can I macro geargrinders to any spell or do we want to have it on separate keybind?

[keen belfry]

trinkets should be on their own keybind!

[pliant wind]

I had it at bte but sometimes it only got used with 1 dead trash mob

Hahaha

[shell fossil]

/slot 13
/slot 14
/vanish

[random stirrup]

sounds like a good way to brick your subterfuge

[frail veldt]

yeah you def should not put it on bte

[shell fossil]

but it would cast before the vanish right?

[frail veldt]

it would cast from stealth

and break stealth with a trinket

and not give you subt

[shell fossil]

oh gross

[frail veldt]

do not macro trinkets to bte

[keen belfry]

why does house of cards brick subterfuge

[frail veldt]

you can consider macroing trinkets to dispatch + KS

[frail veldt]

cuz it breaks stealth

[keen belfry]

ah

[atomic fern]

🏴‍☠️ Hi question! I did read the rotation guide, however I'm trying to figure out: The importance of using BTE while in stealth/subter. I understand it resets the cooldown, however, as fatebound is seems like I only really care about keeping the buff up or using it while Ruthless Precision is up. Are there damage benefits I'm not understand or is this simply cooldown optimization? Thank you :)

[frail veldt]

blizz never fixed that bug

[frail veldt]

crackshot

[compact smelt]

why not?

[keen belfry]

i for some reason thought it was dmg trinkets taht bricked subt

[frail veldt]

bte is our highest damaging finisher

[frail veldt]

read above

[keen belfry]

breaking stealth with trinket will not give u subterfuge (crackshot)

[frail veldt]

If you macro a trinket to bte then when you press bte after vanishing, you will break steatlh using the trinket. This triggers a bug with subterfuge that causes you to NOT gain the subterfuge buff if you use a trinket to break out of stealth

[gaunt phoenix]

the crackshot talent makes bte automatically cast a dispatch if used in stealth

[keen belfry]

gm solo

remember hiatus solo

[past falcon]

gm solo

[compact smelt]

that makes a lot of sense as to why I’ve been losing it ahaha

I macrod it to bte yesterday

[keen belfry]

solo used to be like, not here

[frail veldt]

What I HAVENT tried yet though is putting a /cancelaura stealth macro in with a trinket macro

[compact smelt]

ill swap to dispatch then

[frail veldt]

I wonder if you can trigger subterfuge that way

now that canceling stealth grants subterfuge

[keen belfry]

u should get used to having trinket on its own bind, as outlaw

[gaunt phoenix]

if you macro to dispatch you can go long periods of delaying it

[keen belfry]

x is good trinket bind

[compact smelt]

i was forgetting to use it so i macrod it to something but yeah you’re right

[keen belfry]

bind it to x

and then SS should be bound to 4

dispatch 3

bte 1

GS 2

[frail veldt]

GS 2????

[keen belfry]

bf F

[frail veldt]

thats a waste

[shell fossil]

lmoa

[frail veldt]

SS is on 1

[keen belfry]

pistol shot Q

[frail veldt]

that is just correct

[keen belfry]

4 > 1 for generators

[frail veldt]

SS deserves 1

[keen belfry]

let me guess

u have fireball on 1 too

[frail veldt]

ofc

[past falcon]

BTE is 4

[keen belfry]

yeah no

[past falcon]

ambush E

[keen belfry]

yeah no

[frail veldt]

mutilate on 1

shadowstrike on 1

[weary fog]

SS on q PS on e

[frail veldt]

lightning bolt on 1

[keen belfry]

ps is Q

[vale warren]

Ss 1 ps 2 dispatch 3 bte E

[keen belfry]

4 is generator button

[past falcon]

Q is roll the bones

[frail veldt]

oh wana hear something great

guess what I have on E

[vale warren]

4 is grapple

[past falcon]

F is grapple

[weary fog]

3 is grapple

[shell fossil]

ps on q is kinda vibe

[keen belfry]

losers be like " yeah let me buildcombo points with my ring finger" bro if you dont generate a wedding ring for your wifes ring finger!

[vale warren]

https://tenor.com/view/fire-writing-gif-24533171

[paper pumice]

´so macro geargrinder to dispatch?

[frail veldt]

weak ass ring finger over here

confirmed

[keen belfry]

my pointer finger is so strong

[weary fog]

all my fingers are so strong

[stiff glade]

What the fuck do you have on E Mewo

[past falcon]

my pinky isnt 😦

[stiff glade]

What

[frail veldt]

gouge 😉

LOL

[stiff glade]

[keen belfry]

my e is shiv

[frail veldt]

oh god

thats worse

[stiff glade]

What the fuck

[keen belfry]

i rarely have it talented

[weary fog]

HUH

[stiff glade]

Are you doing

[frail veldt]

bro

awang

[past falcon]

shivi nst even on my bars rn

[frail veldt]

you one upped me

[keen belfry]

guys

E is a great bind

[past falcon]

imagine wasting E

[frail veldt]

this guy was telling us

the correct keybinds

[keen belfry]

idk why i dont use it on outlaw

[frail veldt]

AND HE HAS

SHIV

ON E

[keen belfry]

alt E dwarf

[past falcon]

alt E blind

[frail veldt]

awang sounding like ryu rn

cooooooooooooked

[gaunt phoenix]

i dont use e but i use shift e

[keen belfry]

shift E is cloaked

we are the same solo

[frail veldt]

LOL

[keen belfry]

i dont use E

[stiff glade]

Bruh, E is reserved for pick pocket, everyone knows that

[keen belfry]

i use shift E as cloak

[frail veldt]

E is such a good bind too

[dawn talon]

my shiv is on e for assa

[keen belfry]

i agree idk why i dont use it on outlaw

[dawn talon]

it's on v for outlaw and sub

[frail veldt]

I think Q is my fav bind

[keen belfry]

q is best bind

q and F

[dawn talon]

my q e are ss and ps

[frail veldt]

but your poor wittle wing finger

[weary fog]

whats ur killing spree bind

[frail veldt]

g

for

go to the graveyard

[dawn talon]

f is dispatch or you're wrong sry

[frail veldt]

ew

dispatch is 4 obv

[dawn talon]

i hate using num keys

for anything

[frail veldt]

thats wild

[dawn talon]

my sprint is on 4

my cloak is on 2

[keen belfry]

lets all send in hand cams of our rotations

[shell fossil]

half the tme i cant see geargrinder trinket so parakeet

[frail veldt]

I was litearlly about to say that

hahahaha

[past falcon]

f2

[frail veldt]

watch them hands dance

I use a lot of modifiers

[weary fog]

yeah i use shift a lot

[frail veldt]

my kir bind is control c lol

[past falcon]

i used to only use alt keybind

but i kept alt-f4'ing myself

lol

[frail veldt]

I dont even have an f row

[vale warren]

How much are you pressing f4 lol

[keen belfry]

i use a lot of mouse butons

[past falcon]

my mouse is binded to f1-f12

so

uh

[frail veldt]

the one I hit a lot on accident is alt + esc

and I minimize my game

[keen belfry]

same no cap

[frail veldt]

super tilting

[vale warren]

I use alt binds and it makes me alt tab sometimes

[stiff glade]

I put all my defensives on mouse wheel up and down with different modifiers

[vale warren]

My fault for using tab target

[frail veldt]

cuz my esc key is next to 1

[stiff glade]

Sounds weird, but it's surprisingly nice

[past falcon]

and the problem was alt f4 was a consumable

so if my consumable ran out

............

[shell fossil]

alt 2-3 for panic feints

[frail veldt]

wait wat

[keen belfry]

i think i only use alt for alt E

ctrl > alt

[keen belfry]

ctrl E is evasion

[past falcon]

f5 is evasion

[remote pecan]

raid is too easy now, thoughts?

this is first night of prog

[keen belfry]

nah f5 is blind

yeah ive heard mugzee is easier than OAB now cuz of dmg we all have

[past falcon]

on my mouse, button #1 is a modifier and then 2-12 line up with f2-f12. so i used to have #1 as an alt modifier and then id use alt 1-4 for things. i have now changed it to shift LMAO

[keen belfry]

i realized i dont use good buttons as outlaw

prior to killing spree i didnt use R

[past falcon]

but my hands dont seem capable of using shift or control w/ my left pinky

[frail veldt]

yeah but how does alt f4 not always work

[past falcon]

which is why i grew up using alt

[frail veldt]

that doesnt make sense

that shouldnt be how your binds function lol

[past falcon]

sometimes id use the consumable and sometimes id just fucking kill my game bro idk

[frail veldt]

thats insanely sus

if you have too low of energy

does it alt f4

cuz you cant feint

like wtf is that

[past falcon]

oh no alt f4 used to be a consumable

now its shift f4 shiv

[frail veldt]

oh okay

so you dont have alt f4 bound at all now

[past falcon]

yes

[frail veldt]

good good lol

[past falcon]

correct

im reformed

[frail veldt]

proud of you

[keen belfry]

is puggin 19s possible

[frail veldt]

are you EU?

[past falcon]

if u find the key lmfao

[keen belfry]

no

[frail veldt]

then no

[stiff glade]

Sounds like a good bind tbh. Out of energy, time to stop playing

[frail veldt]

bro I couldnt even pug a 16 last night

[past falcon]

mewo are u US or EU

[frail veldt]

US

[keen belfry]

i dont think ill get any 19s done pugging i must add all the brewmasters

[past falcon]

the brewmasters like to go double outlaw

[frail veldt]

I did a double outlaw key before

[past falcon]

same with some bear druids

[frail veldt]

and honestly

fuck playing with another outlaw

[past falcon]

LMAO

[frail veldt]

KSing around and shit

hella annoying

[past falcon]

my 19 top is double outlaw

my 18 prio is triple outlaw

[frail veldt]

it was in cinderbrew

[past falcon]

im addicted

[stiff glade]

You sound just like my duo

[frail veldt]

I mean Im all for it but I cant really find any other outlaws lol

Id rather just pad the group with physical buffs for me lol

war sham monk druid

and blast

[stiff glade]

Yeah, double outlaw means you're down one buff

Fuck that

[shell fossil]

tru

aaa lmao

[mighty pivot]

the only buff you need is the friendship of your outlaw homies

[stiff glade]

[vale warren]

The only buff I need is restless crew

[frail veldt]

what an insane idea that was

[mighty pivot]

proper ryukage cook of a talent

[bronze bough]

What is the weapon swap WA Zac is using?

[paper pumice]

Guys what would you buy with your cartel chip if u were in my situation; I have geargrinder HC, Gallywix's Iron thumb HC, Crafted longsword 681ilvl and Hero Pacemaker. What would you take, my focus is m+, I do not mythic raid but wanna push higher IO score

[shell fossil]

see if you can pug a cauldron kill

maybe

but you technically have enough to par through a 12 if you're like 665

[strong cargo]

Capo for offhand I guess if you don't have access to myt raid, then myt trinket for m+

[tall lion]

!wa

[ornate heath]

Class packs:

• Guy's - Afenar's Edit Luxthos Edit
• Zac's Group Devlin
  Utilities:
• Combo Point Standalone
• Last GCD in Crackshot window / Subterfuge timer
• Ace refund sound trigger
• RtB buffs tracker (shows normal, CTO, and KIR'd buffs)
• Unseen Blade tracker
  Fun:
• Ace max combo counter and Ace current combo counter
• KS Ticking damage taken

[tall lion]

oh god there's a KS ticking dmg wa

cries

[valid kindle]

I'd just buy capo hc regardless, if you're never going to be killing gally myth on that char you're never replacing it

*mug'zee

[frail veldt]

how much dps increase is heroic capo though over myth offhand

[dim widget]

Sorry had to do it

[slate forge]

~1% for me .8% for a myth dagger

[rocky kiln]

!fuu

[ornate heath]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[dire stump]

hey guys, what is the main use case for feint? i see that it helps evade AOE dmg and has an added dmg reduction on top of that? im not really sure but i was a bit confused as to when we would use that skill over Evasion

[light fossil]

In my case i press faint all the time

Higher uptime than ar

[strong cargo]

With elusivness talent, if it's not for aoe damage both of them are 20% dr, but feint uses energy and evasion doesn't

[cinder relic]

Use case for feint is general damage reduction

It's rogues primary defensive option

It's just x% damage reduction to aoe abilities

[runic bough]

https://tenor.com/view/yes-desmaiei-faint-omg-funny-gif-15686578

[runic bough]

I saw the gif in your article and it doesn't show the bugs of ks at all. Missed opportunity.

But the wording does emphasis our nightmare with it sure.

Awang falling off the boat would have been a much better gif to use in the article.

[strong cargo]

I don't think any bug with ks is a huge problem, it's more about the design of the spell

[runic bough]

Or multiple gifs

[cinder relic]

KS has fundamental issues past just bugs

[runic bough]

More people would have understood our nightmare better with visual gifs

Maybe next time more visuals

That's all, thanks for the article.

[cinder relic]

I don't want the article to be "See how KS is bad" followed by 4 different gifs highlightning it

Theres only so much to say how shitty KS is and I don't need to pad out my word count

[runic bough]

Its a major factor in playing outlaw currently I think it was worth viewing.

Its the main reason half the community rerolled

Or more

Pretty major

[strong cargo]

It is, but i'm pretty sure by now Blizzard knows exactly how we feel and how the spell is 😄

[runic bough]

My guild killed Stix last night

[cinder relic]

The article spends a lot of time talking about KS being bad

[runic bough]

Yes I appreciate the wording

[cinder relic]

Again, I just dont need 4 paragraphs to elucidate how shit KS is

[white marten]

Gratz- everyone but me in my guild stopped logging on after getting aotc

[runic bough]

Stix being the only boss we can freely use trololspree im debating what spec to play now

[white marten]

Enh shaman

[runic bough]

I want to play feral but also want to play war

[white marten]

Ive never played feral

Seems like constant dot refreshing

[cinder relic]

its like sin without any QOL and snapshotting as a primary focus afaik

[strong cargo]

Can you not ignite the trash during it ?

[runic bough]

Dh was not enjoyable I hated the resource system

[white marten]

War and feral could use a nice good rework

[runic bough]

I seen a mage do 7mil boss dmg

Maybe mage

[white marten]

Arcane?

[runic bough]

Yeah arcane

[white marten]

Fire and frost are pretty meh

[cinder relic]

mage is legit the hardest class in the game

[runic bough]

I've only seen arcane get that high

[cinder relic]

So gl

[white marten]

play uhdk. 3 buttons and ur doing 36m on 1st pulls

[keen belfry]

I think mage specs are easier to pull off than outlaw

By a decent margin

[runic bough]

Awang plays Mage

[cinder relic]

Mage is more than just doing the rotation

[white marten]

I think fire is currently one of the easiest specs in the game.

Pretty straightforward id say

[keen belfry]

It’s very simple yes, but it’s high apm and very punishing. For sure not one of the easiest

Simple rotation, harder execution

[white marten]

High apm in an outlaw channel

Made me giggle

In a good way

[frail veldt]

think so?

I think defensively and mobility wise mage is significantly harder than rogue

[runic bough]

What could be harder than staying in melee range with these shitty hit boxes this expansion?

[frail veldt]

absolutely not

[cinder relic]

Theres more to this game than just doing the rotation and mage has a lot of nonsense it can past just "doing rotation good"

[frail veldt]

I would argue fire mage is harder than most casters

including its rotation

anyone who thinks fire mages rotation is easy honestly just hasnt played it lol

[cinder relic]

If u think melee hitboxes are bad this expac U've never played an actual bad melee expac before

Gallywix's hitbox is literally like 2x his actual size

[frail veldt]

frost is easier than fire

[white marten]

Well when locks are a thing. I guess mage is still more difficult rotationally

[frail veldt]

mage is harder than lock

hardre than boomy

harder than ele

prob harder than sp

[keen belfry]

I find outlaw much more challenging than arcane and fire for sure, but I say that knowing it’s a preference

[white marten]

Sp is easy af

[stiff glade]

We're kinda spoiled having good defensives that are "always" up. Mages have hella defensiveness, but they have like 6 different buttons on relatively long CDs that they have to use with more thought than us pressing feint for everything

[frail veldt]

see youre running out of runway

what caster is hard to you then lol

its about relative scale

[keen belfry]

Wym?

Or was. That not at me

[frail veldt]

im asking pistol shot pedro

[white marten]

Na na, you right- after thinking about it, mage is the hardest caster

Or rdps

[frail veldt]

a lot of people just think the game is easy as a whole lol but thats not a useful perspective

[runic bough]

So mage is hardest and most rewarding in dmg then?

[frail veldt]

probably yeah

[white marten]

Mage is def the most rewarding

[cinder relic]

I wouldn't say most rewarding damage

[frail veldt]

theres a reason bad fire mages are so obvious

[cinder relic]

It's damage is fine

Its insane in keys but its like "Fine" in raid

[runic bough]

Yeah I'm kind of a key content player now anyways

[frail veldt]

yeah usually I term "rewarding" to mean that theres a large reward on doing it correclty vs doing it poorly, whether or not that final reward is large in the grand scheme of balance

[agile orchid]

using your defensives properly as a mage is much more difficult than rogue

[cinder relic]

The issue with mage is that uneed coordination

[keen belfry]

I’m of the stance outlaw is much harder, I think the combination of apm, melee, uptime greed, and all the conditions for things like rtb and ks and trickster

[cinder relic]

Mage is mega mid without planning and accounting for so

The pug exp is way diff

[frail veldt]

I think melee is harder in general rn

[keen belfry]

Ye

[frail veldt]

theres a lot of aoe that centers around or close to the mob

standing 40 yards away you can almost afk

[keen belfry]

I don’t account for this when I describe difficulty if that makes sense

[frail veldt]

like genuinely

[cinder relic]

i AGREE

caps

Im saying is if hes just a key player

and hes picking up mage

a lot of mages strenghts is routing around the mage

[keen belfry]

I just perform as good, if not better on a less practiced spec in terms of fire and arcane

[cinder relic]

Just pugging mage, mage is "mid"

performance wise

[frail veldt]

yeah mage isnt gona be able to stand on their own like outlaw can

thats part of what I love about outlaw

I need no support to perform well

[keen belfry]

This same thing happened to me for enhance Sham, whenever I play a spec people say is “hard” I find it much easier than outlaw

[frail veldt]

I cant even count the number of keys where we def had no chance of timing it if I didnt do like 30% more dps than my teammate

and on other specs you cant control that as much on your own

have to rely on routing and pull size

[white marten]

Outlaw is one of the best pug specs. Doesnt matter how the tank pulls. You gonna do damage

[frail veldt]

100%

it still is impacted by routing

but less impacted than all other specs

for sure

[white marten]

What do you mean by routing?

[frail veldt]

the route

of the dungeon

[white marten]

Like a pull of 10 mobs vs 7?

[frail veldt]

or pulling mobs onto boss

[white marten]

Oh gotcha