outlaw

[vivid vessel]

Like

If you get bad rng

Especially as 1 fth

You can have no energy even inside ADR

Especially when you are doing stuffs like feint into ks

Which Im so used to do now I even press feint before ks when there is nothing happening

[vernal bone]

but how am i supposed to parse my healing

[vivid vessel]

ye right

[deft terrace]

https://wago.io/LsKoZUS16

is there any updated version of this style WA?

[vivid vessel]

no cause thats a terrible way of tracking rtb

Nowadays every buff has an individual buff potentially

[haughty wigeon]

reported

[lime lake]

my reddit karma will keep me safe

[haughty wigeon]

plebbit

[wintry solar]

does it keep you warm at night too

[haughty wigeon]

who cares about reddit

im reporting the secret tech

[lime lake]

wow thats fucked up

i was just making a meta joke but imagine being a rat

[vivid vessel]

wonder why

[jovial socket]

cooked

[vivid vessel]

I asked to delete

Because people like this guy

[runic bough]

https://tenor.com/view/alert-siren-warning-light-gif-15160785

[vivid vessel]

this guy is litteraly the biggest rat in rh tho

so unlucky

[runic bough]

Something happend and I missed it

Theres a rat here

well how do we get them out

i mean take them out

[wintry solar]

squeak

could be any one of us >.>

[runic bough]

Helo police

[lime lake]

[vivid vessel]

@haughty wigeon

arent you tired yet

[runic bough]

https://tenor.com/view/no-samueljackson-stare-gif-10537769

[haughty wigeon]

it takes so lil

to make zac crash out

[runic bough]

whats your real name

[lime lake]

joseph

[haughty wigeon]

rupture snapshotting isnt fix yet and i already reported the rtb stuff

like ages ago

all hands on deck for wow housing and 11.2

11.1 patch pipeline so abandoned its not even funny

[vivid vessel]

idk why the only thing you like in your life

is annoying people

[haughty wigeon]

rembourrage

[vivid vessel]

im asking

arent you tired yet

You fuel on people hating you or what

weird kinks

[haughty wigeon]

it aint that deep man

people like me

if you take me seriously then thats a u issue

[vivid vessel]

Who lol

imma need a list for proof

[haughty wigeon]

all greennames, all sin regs, ect ect

[vivid vessel]

[haughty wigeon]

anywho

[wintry solar]

I missed visions

having fun :3

[runic bough]

zac we should just block him

[wintry solar]

who we blocking?

[vivid vessel]

I cannot block this guy he spread missinfo everywhere he goes

[random stirrup]

u are literally disliked in fel hammer too though?

[vivid vessel]

Even on other servers

[runic bough]

He hides his name because hes up to no good

[vivid vessel]

Dude is a menace

[haughty wigeon]

alot of peeps like me on felhammer too on veng side

[wintry solar]

call him Denace

[vivid vessel]

Why you gotta specify the spec everytime

[runic bough]

[vivid vessel]

2/3 of every discord hates you

Or what

[haughty wigeon]

cause all my friends on havoc got yeeted

[vivid vessel]

Ah

[fathom bramble]

well only half of the dh one then right

[vivid vessel]

No wonder

[haughty wigeon]

i miss xae

[vivid vessel]

ye

but if dh had a third spec

[wintry solar]

arent there 3?

[haughty wigeon]

not for dh

[wintry solar]

dps/tank and then the pvp?

is that place still a cesspit?

[random stirrup]

no

[haughty wigeon]

nope

[wintry solar]

you wanna talk about miss info

[haughty wigeon]

felhammer was cleared out

[wintry solar]

dang they did some work then

[haughty wigeon]

[vivid vessel]

thats why he lost all his friends

[haughty wigeon]

nah i lost them all

cause they all started saying slurs

cause of the addition of a auto modder

like dumbshits

[random stirrup]

yea they ban all the racists and suddenly you have no friends left

[haughty wigeon]

[random stirrup]

curious

[vivid vessel]

That's what I said

?

[vivid vessel]

how strange

[haughty wigeon]

idk zac you take shit to seriously

about me bug reporting irrelevant shit

[vivid vessel]

Brother

[haughty wigeon]

its silly

[vivid vessel]

The only messages you type in here

Are just to annoy people

Why do you even do that

You know well what you do

[haughty wigeon]

i guess just to annoy u

[vivid vessel]

Yes so why

Do you do it

[random stirrup]

i need to get better discord back so I can just hide the block message thing and live my life in peace

[vivid vessel]

What do you gain

That's why I asked

[haughty wigeon]

i get blizzard fixing their game

[vivid vessel]

Aren't you tired of it yet

Ye and you can do that without announcing it

Cause the only reason you did it

Is to annoy me and you knows it

Because who tf cares

What you do

[haughty wigeon]

mostly cause outlaw is notorious for being annoying and glorifying dumb stuff

so im just playing along

[vivid vessel]

Go play along in vengeance channels

Maybe

[fathom bramble]

what does that even mean

[jovial socket]

^

[vivid vessel]

No one wanna play along with you here

So I'm confused

Weirdo man idk

Imagine if I was in dh discord

Sending one message every week

[haughty wigeon]

i wouldnt give a shit tbh

[vivid vessel]

Just to annoy a few people

Like all my purpose was that

Wouldn't that be mega weird

[haughty wigeon]

cause people already do that and its like not really something i give my energy to

"i reported this positive bug!"

[vivid vessel]

im just confused why someone would waste its time like you do

[haughty wigeon]

and like it means nothing

[vivid vessel]

jsut to annoy people

[haughty wigeon]

cause everyone there already reported it

[vivid vessel]

so i will ask again

do you fuel on people hating you

[fluid meadow]

is this the same guy who come after coup fix before?

[vivid vessel]

Probably

Only times he talks in here is when outlaw is bugged or nerfed

[haughty wigeon]

i said coup fix was unfort but not surprising

[random stirrup]

ah tranquility

[haughty wigeon]

and it was funny

[random stirrup]

hey dont do that

[haughty wigeon]

how people went ape shit about it, ya the lack of a compensation buff sucked

[vivid vessel]

you cant escape it

[mighty pivot]

[wintry solar]

it was funny tbf

in a cosmic sort of way

[haughty wigeon]

but double coup was always gonna bite the bullet and its silly how people went absolutely ape shit how that bug fix "broke the spec"

[fluid meadow]

so if he wants to fix the game why not find and reported that shit we hit dead targets for years?

[haughty wigeon]

i mean it was the topic of discussion

[random stirrup]

next i will block you too!

[haughty wigeon]

but no one found proof of it

and it kinda fizzle out

[vivid vessel]

It made the spec way easier, and when coup bug got fixed outlaw litteraly went back to being. The worse spec in the game in m+ so

[haughty wigeon]

cant report shit without proof

[fathom bramble]

people like this don't find bugs

[haughty wigeon]

also i mostly do ret and veng stuff

outlaw i kinda hang around

[vivid vessel]

But like again, the only thing I'm asking, is why do you even bother right

Like why is the only times you. Are in here is to stir shit

[frank finch]

and look at us now , in the bottom half of raid dps charts

[vivid vessel]

Like you don't really care about the spec itself you just care about being annoying to people

And I don't get it legit lol

[haughty wigeon]

i care about outlaw

[lime lake]

shit stirring is based

[haughty wigeon]

dont think i dont care about this shit spec

if i didnt care

i wouldnt be here

[vivid vessel]

why dont you just talk about outlaw stuffs then

[haughty wigeon]

what is there to talk about

killing spree sucks

[vivid vessel]

why are the only time you talk is to be like

[haughty wigeon]

no acro sucks

bladeflurry needs to be uncapped

everytime someone talks about outlaw

it devolves to the same stuff over and over and over again

anything new is hated instantly

until people get used to it

[vivid vessel]

" guys i see you all being bug abusers ! I reported this bug btw! Hope they fix it "

[haughty wigeon]

and then its back to the same "x sucks dick"

i remember liking new GM all the way back in DF

and everyone started jumping me

[vivid vessel]

wtf is new gm

[fathom bramble]

you mean needing to press SND again?

[vivid vessel]

the one that is a straight 10% dps increase buff or what

[fathom bramble]

we continued hating that until they fixed it

[vivid vessel]

like just that

[haughty wigeon]

i said "how new gm is a stepping stone to more outlaw changes probably in 10.2 "

and people still went apeshit

[fathom bramble]

that's not even a defence of gm

it's almost an admission that it's bad

and justified by some future change

[haughty wigeon]

cause hey if one of our main pain rolls got actual changes, thats means more chanegs are on the horizon and probably gonna be changed again

it sucked on its own yes

but i also said that

[vivid vessel]

Are we talking about the same gm

The one that is just

"you do 10% More damage "

That gm

Or what

[haughty wigeon]

instead of new grandmelee inspiring conversation of how potential changes could happen to make it work or heck it might be open to get changed again

[vivid vessel]

Possibly the worse designed rtb buff

[haughty wigeon]

people spiralled to yet another doomfeast

[vivid vessel]

Or which gm

Or the one that made us press bf in st

Both are bad

One was worse

[mighty pivot]

wasn't the leech gm worse

[vivid vessel]

Which gm are we talking about

[fathom bramble]

so if people don't like a new change you are arguing that hypothetical yet to be released changes should be the focus of discussion?

or what

[vivid vessel]

Gm went from being shit gameplay and terrible damage to very good damage and still shit gameplay

gm redesign was great

[hollow temple]

Geez muts

[fathom bramble]

well the first GM rework was sort of fine

[haughty wigeon]

im not saying people should be positive 24/7. nor should they. i find its important to let blizzard know whats bad in any way

[fathom bramble]

snd was coming back so it made sense

2nd gm rework was awful and made you maintain BF on ST

[haughty wigeon]

but theres a point

and you know that lok

[fathom bramble]

3rd gm rework was fine and took that back away

[haughty wigeon]

where shit goes so out of hand

thats theres no room for any discussion other than "this is bad and if you say anything other than "this is bad" your actually not a outlaw main"

[fluid meadow]

buffing ret is a good way from blizz go play that, can hit 2 mill base ( 16 other spec together don't have that number)

[haughty wigeon]

ret was always a popular spec

the rework just made it ez to do damage if you dont have hands

yall dont want outlaw to be that

[wintry solar]

shouldve left gm alone tbh

20 minute snd was peak

[vivid vessel]

Gm is litteraly the same shit as before

It just does damage now

Idk why we should care

It's still a shit buff

Im happy when I get gm cause I know I will do more damage

And then I get no procs no cps no energy

Cause gm don't do shitn anywya

Good buff

[random stirrup]

roll solo gm -> rp -> gm

[fathom bramble]

I think it's pretty rare that this happens except when people try to defend things that actually make no sense

[haughty wigeon]

i mean thats more of a issue of rtb in general

[fathom bramble]

or feel like they are coming from the perspective of someone that doesn't engage in high content

[wintry solar]

the rolls of champions

[fathom bramble]

I agree that it has been done by some people sometimes

[haughty wigeon]

thats fair, idk man it just seems like everytime i pop in its just the same stuff every day

[vivid vessel]

What do you want us to talk about

[fathom bramble]

if nothing is changing with the spec then it'll just do that

[vivid vessel]

Every day I wake up I say I love outlaw

[haughty wigeon]

is it a issue of me not being active enough in a place i used to be active alot more in?

maybe

[vivid vessel]

Then I complain about killing spree

Then I say I'm addicted to outlaw

[haughty wigeon]

yep that basically ends up being the thing

not that i blame anyone

[vivid vessel]

Then I go back to sleep and circle repeat

[haughty wigeon]

killign spree sucks

[fathom bramble]

I like talking about the potential futures

especially via 2 AM cooks

but when new people cycle in old discussions happen again and again

[wintry solar]

yeah more fun

[fathom bramble]

while regulars engage with whatever is going on

[haughty wigeon]

ive slapped some coke'd up cooks too

[vivid vessel]

I don't like talking about the future anymore because I'm always disappointed

Nothing happens

[lime lake]

[haughty wigeon]

some of them memes fo sin

[jolly geyser]

[haughty wigeon]

some good ones for outlaw back in tww beta

[fathom bramble]

speaking of the 2 am cooks

[haughty wigeon]

newo ne new one new one

[fathom bramble]

if I post it enough it will happen

Your single target melee attacks have a 30% chance to strike again with your off-hand for x% of the original damage dealt. All other ability damage is increased by y%.

[haughty wigeon]

[fathom bramble]

Bloody adrenaline: Adrenaline rush now also grants increased damage equal to X% of your haste

[agile orchid]

I got used to KS

[wintry solar]

can we really only get the first row of vision upgrades?

[haughty wigeon]

i still think mastery should be something like "bte, pistolshot, does more damage by %mastery when target is under 30% hp"

[fathom bramble]

yes

[wintry solar]

wtf

[lime lake]

yeah its very fun

[haughty wigeon]

killing spree is removed

replaced with deathsblossom

[lime lake]

not only is it timegated it also has 0 player choice in what you spend your timegated research on

[jolly geyser]

reaper in wow

[haughty wigeon]

you spin around shooting everything for x damage for x seconds based on cp

like bladestorm

so no teleporting

[agile orchid]

What if mastery increased the cdr of restless blades

[haughty wigeon]

i think people give it way to much attention

[mighty pivot]

do you also say "die die die" while doing it

[haughty wigeon]

visions is already meme content, could have released without a tree

[haughty wigeon]

thats a glyph

[vivid vessel]

I think it's weird how they are keeping this patch alive

[wintry solar]

yuck

[vivid vessel]

By doing nothing

Like the ilvl thing was a 1/2 week thing

They did by changing a integer in a file

[wintry solar]

maxed out tree

[agile orchid]

I kinda like the ilvl thing

[wintry solar]

off to CoD I guess

[vivid vessel]

Then the visions is another 3 week thing

[agile orchid]

I hope they do it every season

[vivid vessel]

That's like free for them and is useless

[random stirrup]

seems like a cool change to mastery

[mighty pivot]

they also added a new optional crafting reagent :))))

[lime lake]

its definitely a lot of artificially inflating engagement midway through the patch

[jolly geyser]

gonna do my last gear upgrade in abit

[vivid vessel]

And then we are getting the random belt

Like not a single player cares about any of these stuffs

[hollow temple]

Yep very boring

[vivid vessel]

It feels like they are idk

[fluid meadow]

players are satisfied to get ilvl and +2 free keylvl to get their 12s, "completion rate for dungeons is high, that's how to manipulate numbers and things

[jolly geyser]

thats not true but ye

[vivid vessel]

Artificially forcing people to play or some shit

[hollow temple]

They are just trickling out free power

It’s fucking lame

[vivid vessel]

I think it's weird to get all these new stuffs that restart your progress for key pushing aswell

When like

[haughty wigeon]

i think ion was on the nose

[fathom bramble]

I know a casual that is unironically excited for visions

[haughty wigeon]

appologzing for this patch cycle

[vivid vessel]

That should be the start of a season

[lime lake]

visions are fun

[mighty pivot]

it must be because they are very busy with midnight, which will be perfect given how other things are neglected over it ( )

[fathom bramble]

I feel like there has to be at least a few more

[haughty wigeon]

i wouldnt say that either

[vivid vessel]

Not some random stuffs every 3 weeks that are there for 0 reason

[lime lake]

its fun content

[wintry solar]

was so excited for visions

[lime lake]

its just timegated randomly to artificially boost engagement

[haughty wigeon]

i was excited for twlight dev

i dont like

turbo boost

it kinda feels like a kick in the dick

[hollow temple]

Of course casuals will enjoy it. They can farm mounts and transmogs

[lime lake]

they even timegated the cosmetics to begin with

[haughty wigeon]

ultimately alot of this patch cycle is stuff not for us

[random stirrup]

voidcycle looks sick

[haughty wigeon]

its for casuals

[random stirrup]

cant wait to get it

[civic void]

Someone who engaged with them in bfa ? I was giving them the benifit of the doubt that it was gonna be fun for a little bit but shit is a carbon copy of bfa

[haughty wigeon]

and it sucks balls for us

cause frankly

[fluid meadow]

remember, they give 3k io achievement, casuels starts to cry they can't get that, so they had to do something, whole thing is pointless

[vivid vessel]

i mean i dont understand turbo boost

i legit dont

[haughty wigeon]

going two .x patches without a single shred of class illiteration

is horrible

[fathom bramble]

no, they didn't play BFA all that much and skipped visions entirely afaik

[lime lake]

they were fun in bfa too

[haughty wigeon]

especially for specs with bad hero trees

[fathom bramble]

I enjoyed them in bfa

[wintry solar]

same

[fathom bramble]

and they are still sort of fun shooty shooty content that you can blast through

[lime lake]

i do wish they had iterated on them

[fathom bramble]

the timegating is evil though

[lime lake]

instead of literally releasing the same thing

[haughty wigeon]

i think the 3k achievement is nice

[jolly geyser]

well these patches become boring if all you do in the game is run m+ and some raid bosses

[civic void]

I mean I think it's ok solo content but like bringing them back the exact same is a let down even if they were fun before

[lime lake]

like visions of dorn and azj kahet or something

[haughty wigeon]

cuase frankly meme key mode needs more rewards beyond

"the reward is the acomplishment you feel"

[mossy rock]

is this ok

15 priory for context

[haughty wigeon]

this tbh

the lorewalker stuff tho

[vivid vessel]

of course

[haughty wigeon]

that shit looks cool

and casuals are eating it up

[vivid vessel]

I mean what tho

[mossy rock]

ive seen like 85% uptimes

never seen a 95%

[haughty wigeon]

the mount is fine

[fluid meadow]

and they give +ilvl and shits to get it, so they just give it for free to everybody, so still pointless

[vivid vessel]

The people that push keys wouldn't really care about transmog and shit I feel

[haughty wigeon]

perfect reward for 3k io

[vivid vessel]

So idk

Ah you mean for lower tiers

[haughty wigeon]

incentives people to push more even if its into meme 12-13

heck i would have never gotten pass 2.5k if there wasnt a mount

i have like

0 interest in keys

[fathom bramble]

you should get the mythic pve transmog as you gain score

[fluid meadow]

another thing, why are u here then?

[haughty wigeon]

i get max vault, i stop. gg

[vivid vessel]

ok but

Why should they "force" you

To do keys

[haughty wigeon]

cool i get new tmog effects at 2.5-2.7k thats a good reason to do it

[vivid vessel]

If you don't like it

[haughty wigeon]

its not really a force

its a incentive

[vivid vessel]

Ye but why

[haughty wigeon]

if you dont like the mount, you dont do it

[vivid vessel]

I don't raid cause of idk

Transmog

[haughty wigeon]

to have meme gamemode more players

[vivid vessel]

Or the title

[wintry solar]

you say meme a lot

[vivid vessel]

I raid cause I like it and it's personal achievement and shit

[haughty wigeon]

different folks have different strokes

[vivid vessel]

Same for m+

[haughty wigeon]

cause eventually keys do become somewhat of a meme mode due to how its design. infintely scaling content

[hollow temple]

[haughty wigeon]

things get fucky

metas get made

you start doing degen keys to edge out extra benefits

[haughty wigeon]

kinda silly to assume "outlaw is key spec only" like dude

its not even a key spec

[lime lake]

i mean i get why people who do high keys like doing that stuff, you're doing every optimization you can to see how far you can push yourself

[leaden folio]

outlaw is a casual-content killer spec only

[lime lake]

i wouldnt say that makes it a meme game mode

i do the same thing in other games

[vivid vessel]

You do these type of content for yourself kinda, it's just like league farming points

Ts just competition

I don't think you need incentives

[haughty wigeon]

theres a point where you do and thats appealing for alot of people. but frankly not appealing to me

[haughty wigeon]

i dont mean meme in a insulting way btw, i wont use to term anymore if you dont want thats fine

[warped scarab]

tism

[vivid vessel]

Ye but then, if they add incentives now you have people that do keys but dont wanna do it tho

[haughty wigeon]

its meme in what you once you reach cutting edge content

[vivid vessel]

And just do it for a random reward

[fathom bramble]

I assumed you were using meme on purpose specifically to annoy Zac

[vivid vessel]

That's not really what you want no?

[fathom bramble]

to be honest

[lime lake]

the idea is that if you incentivize people to interact more with the game mode at lower levels, they may find they enjoy it and continue playing it to high levels when they otherwise wouldnt

would that actually happen? idk

[vivid vessel]

Maybe

Idk

[haughty wigeon]

nah, but if thats the image im putting off

ill stop

[lime lake]

but there is at least some logic behind it

but yeah a lot of people would do it and then complain they're forced to for whatever reward it is

[haughty wigeon]

this @vivid vessel

[lime lake]

bc thats how the community goes

[haughty wigeon]

to fight off the usual drought you find in keys when you go higher and higher

while yes this does lead to a new stopping point being made

[vivid vessel]

hm

[hollow temple]

Rewards are a common incentive for players to engage with content

[vivid vessel]

In wow ye

That's mostly wow specific tho I feel

[hollow temple]

It’s done in like most live service games

[haughty wigeon]

should another incentive appear to make people push to 3.5k? nope

[vivid vessel]

Most competitive games players just play it for the competition

[haughty wigeon]

cause lets be honest

14+ bracket is where current tuning starts hard gating people

[hollow temple]

Most of those games have battle passes or similar stuff

[haughty wigeon]

we have to remember, wow isnt just a competative game

or else we'll see battle passes or hard mmr gating

[hollow temple]

The vast majority of players aren’t playing strictly to be competitive

[haughty wigeon]

heck majority of players arnt getting the first mount at 2.5k

[stiff hawk]

WoW is all about rewards

[haughty wigeon]

more players rn are in delves

end of the day wow is a mmorpg

[vivid vessel]

well the pushing part is tho

[haughty wigeon]

and we cant forget that when it comes to content

[fathom bramble]

I feel like most of the players around me are usually playing specifically to be competitive

while I'm playing to have fun

[stiff hawk]

only a small percentage plays for Progress alone

[brisk meadow]

WoW is about the people you meet on the Grind

[haughty wigeon]

but when does pushing start to be "pushing"

[brisk meadow]

[hollow temple]

Ye that’s like 1-2% of people though

[haughty wigeon]

ya know?

[stiff hawk]

Well arent you in HoF range?

[haughty wigeon]

would u consider

12's to be pushing?

[fathom bramble]

hall of fame

[haughty wigeon]

cause i sure dont

[fathom bramble]

and like when I got title it was mostly by accident

[haughty wigeon]

but yet the 12-13 bracket is still such a small population

[fathom bramble]

while my group was worried about score I just wanted to hit things idk

[stiff hawk]

Thats the small percentage that is competetive

[lime lake]

based

[haughty wigeon]

compared to everything else

[fathom bramble]

yeah

[vivid vessel]

ye

[fathom bramble]

but people engaging with this content are doing it to be competitive

[vivid vessel]

any time you go above the vault treshold

[stiff hawk]

Meet on Grindr?

[vivid vessel]

you do it for yourself

[haughty wigeon]

fair enough

i can agree with that

[stiff hawk]

I do Mythic raid for the Achievement/Mount and to "complete" my Character

[vivid vessel]

I mean what other reasons Is there

I can't consider 12s push keys cause it's like

[haughty wigeon]

you like a mount

[vivid vessel]

Meme keys a bit

But it's still pushing for some people

[haughty wigeon]

rewards to fight population drought

[vivid vessel]

Cause there isn't any incentives tom play it

[haughty wigeon]

plus they look cool

[stiff hawk]

Its the same as for some people Heroic Gally is progress

[random stirrup]

12s are still crests

[vivid vessel]

So they do it for themselves

[haughty wigeon]

you can be a collector

[random stirrup]

max crest threshold

[vivid vessel]

true well you get me anyway

13 + etc

you just do it for yourself

[haughty wigeon]

i think putting a mount on 3k was more positive than negative for the community at large

[vivid vessel]

sure

[haughty wigeon]

i dont see much people whining about being forced to push to 12-13 for mount

[leaden folio]

dunno why they remove the fact you drop more loot when you push higher key

[haughty wigeon]

and the ones are do, frankly probably dont enjoy keys in general

[leaden folio]

giga sad

[vivid vessel]

Ye but I see a lot of people that don't like being forced to pla m+ for gear and stuffs

[leaden folio]

even the gold reward didnt scale with the level of the key, boring af

[vivid vessel]

And I would rather not have these peoples in my keys for example

[haughty wigeon]

thats mostly raiders doing the first few weeks of mythic raid proc

[fluid meadow]

different m+ titles when?

[haughty wigeon]

cause keys is a sourceo f easily accessable gear

[vivid vessel]

they removed that ?

[haughty wigeon]

that being said

i dont think they should seperate key and raid loot completely

[civic void]

They capped it to 3 loots iirc

[leaden folio]

how much loot you have when you do your 18

[haughty wigeon]

i feel like further segergrating gamemode populations will end up hurting the game more than helping it

[vivid vessel]

i mean

i dont look at it so

no idea

[fathom bramble]

right now M+ plays an important part for guilds that don't want to run 3700 splits

[haughty wigeon]

since the people complainging about key gear while raiding are again

[leaden folio]

back in my time, I wasnt high rio player, and we got 5 loot, not only 2

[haughty wigeon]

a small dfraction of the population

considering the alternative

[rotund zodiac]

has anyone clear 5 masks horrific visions yet?

[vivid vessel]

I wiped on 0 masks

[lime lake]

[haughty wigeon]

i would imagine yes?

[fathom bramble]

died to KS in visions

unluck

[haughty wigeon]

50% less sanity mask sounds like aids rn

[lime lake]

5 mask is actually decently hard atm because of that one

[fathom bramble]

ksed into a -200 while using the 50% less sanity mask

[lime lake]

or so im told i havent bothered doing it

[haughty wigeon]

i mean ive already got all i wanted

so not really doing visions anymore

[red zinc]

Dont think they removed it but

[leaden folio]

it is ok

[red zinc]

It used to start scaling loot after 21s with 20% chance for additional item for each key level added

Those keys used to be timeable

Now they arent anymore

[haughty wigeon]

i do know even with the 50% less sanity mask, you can probably offset it with tribute of elite extermination max level

[red zinc]

and they just never adjusted for it

[wintry solar]

dude im gonna have so many corrupted momentos by the time the tree opens up

[fathom bramble]

wonder if they bring back torghast next

[lime lake]

i need to grind 40k for the mount

[fathom bramble]

miss torghast

[leaden folio]

no

[lime lake]

but im gonna wait until we get more research

[leaden folio]

island exploration

better

[civic void]

Honestly just a full pass on the anima power would make it fresh enough to be enjoyable

[haughty wigeon]

Island exploration was neat

[leaden folio]

i cant wait pull all the map and... oh we are target cap now

[lime lake]

ok but i stand by the fact that if torghast was released as a rotating game mode like plunderstorm without requiring massive grinds for player power

[wintry solar]

imagine how good torghast or islands couldve been had they were designed to be evergreen

[lime lake]

it would actually be a very good game mode

[fathom bramble]

yes

[leaden folio]

imagine island now we are target cap

[haughty wigeon]

Torghast was fun

[leaden folio]

pure cinema

[fathom bramble]

I have always said that peoplee didn't hate torghast because of torghast(outside a select few)

[haughty wigeon]

The long hallway one

[fathom bramble]

they hated it because they were forced to do it for player power

[wintry solar]

it was the fact it was forced

yeah

[haughty wigeon]

I’ll say it now

[wintry solar]

poeple hated legendaries because they had to do torghast

[stiff hawk]

Well if you have -60% Sanity drain and get 150 per Elite

[haughty wigeon]

I like the taragrul

[stiff hawk]

and use the 100 Sanity potions

[leaden folio]

thorgast was supposed to be infinite (it was not)

[stiff hawk]

Its ok-ish

[leaden folio]

thorgast was supposed to be an another way to level reroll (it was not)

[wintry solar]

getting chased by him was so intense

[lime lake]

infinite torghast would be so funny

[haughty wigeon]

That was the funnest part

[wintry solar]

for sure

[haughty wigeon]

I like his boss fight too

They should have put the class anima powers there too

[stiff hawk]

Ye because it was a chore

[wintry solar]

I still go back and play it

[stiff hawk]

not a gameplay addition

[wintry solar]

the powers are fun but everything dies too fast to really enjoy

[fathom bramble]

there was a bugged anima power that would have been a hilarious amount of damage if you knew about it

[lime lake]

i need to go back and finish the last achievement

[fathom bramble]

never really mattered since torghast was non-competitive single player content

[lime lake]

but its just the one to collect a fuck ton of phantasma so doesnt sound like fun to do

[vivid vessel]

I liked speedrunning torghast

[haughty wigeon]

Paladins had the best ones

[vivid vessel]

I wish there was a leaderboard

[lime lake]

leaderboard wouldve been sick

spec leaderboards for fastest times

[vivid vessel]

I was doing insane runs I remember

[haughty wigeon]

There was a combo for ret, havoc and veng where u killed things by walking

[vivid vessel]

With the speedy engineer boots things

Holy what a banger

[haughty wigeon]

Veng kyrian immo build

Fuck

[leaden folio]

imagine someone exploit bug by leveling on it at the start of the xpac

[wintry solar]

uhdk had a power that spawned minions when the target died and it worked on pots

[leaden folio]

or imagine soemone exploit bug by leaving it via teleportation and one shot boss

or using stacked pet to exploit bug on pvp

lmao

[haughty wigeon]

I like how the jailer had a room os soul shards

Filled with important lore characters

And they did nothing with it

[simple relic]

i dont care

[haughty wigeon]

Sl real crime was the fact we focused on the alive characters more than the dead ones

[wintry solar]

this guy

[simple relic]

yeah exactly

[wintry solar]

okay but thrall literally lost his hammer

[lime lake]

i'd hammer thrall

[wintry solar]

id hammer wc3 thrall

[haughty wigeon]

I’d thrall his hammer

[leaden folio]

SL was not prepared

[wintry solar]

https://tenor.com/view/thrall-smilies-thrall-smilies-warcraft3-warcraft-gif-1243892045977307968

[leaden folio]

SL missing so many feature/gameplay etc..

[wintry solar]

and poorly implementing what it did

[lime lake]

cant wait for shadowlands classic

[wintry solar]

SL had so much potential too

it was all there

[stiff hawk]

May i introduce you to WoD

[haughty wigeon]

https://tenor.com/view/its-over-thrall-world-of-gif-22003128

[stiff hawk]

I WANTED THE SHATTRATH RAID

[leaden folio]

I mean

[wintry solar]

WoD gets a pass because it got screwed over

AND

[leaden folio]

WoD > SL by a lot

[haughty wigeon]

Sl gets a free pass to

[wintry solar]

more importantly

[haughty wigeon]

As much as people don’t want to admit it

[wintry solar]

WoD had new CP

[haughty wigeon]

Train boss from brf

Fuck

[wintry solar]

people who say this didnt play wod

[stiff hawk]

WoD had such a Banger raids

and Dungeons were cool too

ngl

[lime lake]

wod had twitter integration

was a banger expac

[haughty wigeon]

Why are raids so small now

[stiff hawk]

I prefer every WoD DUngeon over DF

[haughty wigeon]

Raids used to be big

[wintry solar]

all of DF was mid

lets be honest

thats not a high bar

[leaden folio]

Just hate SL so much

[stiff hawk]

SL > DF

Change my mind

[wintry solar]

at least SL had stuff to do

[lime lake]

easily

[stiff hawk]

Every Expac >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BFA

[lime lake]

df added way too many good systems that are the foundation of the game going forward

for it to be below shadowlands

[haughty wigeon]

Df

Sucked

[leaden folio]

yo there is so many cook opinion

[haughty wigeon]

But wanna know what sucked more than df?

Bfa

Fuck bfa

[lime lake]

can say the raids and dungeons were mid and thats fine

[stiff hawk]

BFA the worst thing

[wintry solar]

bfa outlaw was great

[stiff hawk]

WoW happened

[fathom bramble]

some of these systems are things I wouldn't mind seeing reverted though

so idk

[lime lake]

but it was too good for the game as a whole to be called a bad expac

[vivid vessel]

Like what

[wintry solar]

idc about systems if the dungeons and raids and classes were boring

[haughty wigeon]

Target caps

[fathom bramble]

talent tree rework

target caps

[haughty wigeon]

Stat dr

Talent trees were a failure

[stiff hawk]

Talent Tree Reworks

[lime lake]

well i also disagree with the content being boring

[haughty wigeon]

Cause every spec has to much shit

[stiff hawk]

are so bad imo

[lime lake]

but i also care significantly more about permanent systems than temporary content

[stiff hawk]

its still just a "choose a row"

but it looks more complex

[wintry solar]

DF is pretty immemorial

[stiff hawk]

and dont get me started on Hero talents

[fathom bramble]

work orders

[wintry solar]

hero talents aint staying for sure

[haughty wigeon]

I liked talent trees cause I thought it would come with a leveling fix

To make leveling feel impactful again

[leaden folio]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eg8_6u5mZ5w

[haughty wigeon]

For new players and alt leveling

But it didn’t

[stiff hawk]

you fool

[haughty wigeon]

So it ends up sucking

[wintry solar]

the level squish in SL was awful

[fathom bramble]

this is the same as people who wanted a level squish to make leveling faster

it's just not realistic to think that those 2 things are inherently connected

[lime lake]

i disagree with this, just look at rogue alone and see how many different viable builds there are in different content

well except for sub but uh

[wintry solar]

boom

[stiff hawk]

and what do you do basically, you choose between Row 1 2 and 3

HO and KIR

are two row

[lime lake]

i think thats a gross oversimplification

[haughty wigeon]

I mean

[stiff hawk]

The thing is

[haughty wigeon]

My spec has been taking the same build for all content

Since rework

[stiff hawk]

Many things in the talent trees

[lime lake]

i firmly believe the foundation of talent trees is better than the previous iteration

[stiff hawk]

Were baseline

but got ripped of the specs/classes

[haughty wigeon]

One or two talent changes but nothing really else

[stiff hawk]

to justify the talent tree

[haughty wigeon]

Talent trees are made up of stuff u already have anyways too

[lime lake]

some trees are better than others

[wintry solar]

talent trees had MFD and DB at the same time

and thats good enough for me

[haughty wigeon]

I wanted it cause instead of magically learning it now

[stiff hawk]

Like having to spec Kick on some classes

or dispell

[lime lake]

but i still disagree with the idea that its something that should be reverted

[stiff hawk]

OR EVEN TRICKS

Like ?????

[haughty wigeon]

There was rpg aspect where u had to talent it

But then like nothing else about leveling was fixed

[wintry solar]

fixed leveling will have to a be an expansion feature atp

[haughty wigeon]

So now we have a talent tree system that caused probably one of the biggest bloat in defensive offensive and utility power in the games history

[wintry solar]

it needs the father, the son, and the holy spirit.

[lime lake]

leveling is never going to change

[haughty wigeon]

I mean retail lost its spirit

[wintry solar]

it has its pros and cons

[haughty wigeon]

But frankly with sod and classic existing

[wintry solar]

the trees

[haughty wigeon]

It just tells me it won’t be fixed

[wintry solar]

I doubt hero trees last longer than the world soul saga tbh

[lime lake]

the thing is a lot of people dont see it as a problem to be fixed

[haughty wigeon]

The trees were added probably cause they saw how popular rpg aspect la were in the other games

But they didn’t take anything else from them to put in retail

[lime lake]

the days where leveling was a huge part of mmo are over

[stiff hawk]

Ye

[haughty wigeon]

That’s still 6+ years

[stiff hawk]

In Retail

[wintry solar]

really the only time we didnt have trees was mop and wod

[lime lake]

i mean hero trees are cursed

[stiff hawk]

i want to do endgame

[wintry solar]

we had trees in legion to today

[lime lake]

when i talk about talent trees i absolutely do not include them, i mean the foundation set by df rework

hero talents are fucking terrible

[haughty wigeon]

Which again loops around to what I dislike most about this patch cycle

Aka the lack of hero tree fixes and reworks

[stiff hawk]

Hero Talents are so bad

[haughty wigeon]

If we’re ment to have them all saga

[stiff hawk]

Its really rare

[haughty wigeon]

They can’t be this shit

[stiff hawk]

where you play multiple Hero Talents

for different scenarios

Only Exmaple that is in my mind is Dev Evoker

[lime lake]

i actually have no idea why they did hero trees the way they are

[haughty wigeon]

I mean we don’t have to have that tira

[lime lake]

then said it would be an evergreen system

how do you build on this system

[stiff hawk]

the Flameshaper / SCale Commander

[lime lake]

without making it even more cursed

[haughty wigeon]

But having a spec that have two hero tees that suck

Aka outlaw

Is unacceptable

[lime lake]

i mean assa plays fatebound in pure st

its just theres a single pure st fight in the raid

[stiff hawk]

Do you really

[lime lake]

and fatebound loses damage as soon as a single add exists

[lime lake]

ye

a lot of people dont bother though

[haughty wigeon]

Having a spec with one usable hero tree while the other is boring and 30% behind is also unacceptable

Ret

[fathom bramble]

well if it's going to be boring at least it's 30% behind

[stiff hawk]

Survival and MM also have two good working one tbh

[haughty wigeon]

Fate bound is still poorly made

[stiff hawk]

While Sentinel

is really boring

and uninspired

[haughty wigeon]

Capstone of fatebpund sucks

Atleast make it look cool

[lime lake]

sentinel was so annoying when i played mm last season

[haughty wigeon]

If your gonna be boring NY

Mechanically

Look cool

[lime lake]

have to choose to either hold your main damage button or have the owl start pissing in the wrong spot

very fun

boss/pack moves and immediately lose your hero tree

[wintry solar]

what on earth made them decide to have 7 max cp

[stiff hawk]

But people would cry

if Sentinel was an extra button

[haughty wigeon]

It’s boring cause herald has no visual flair and it makes it apparent it’s just flat modifers to your kit

[simple relic]

i love the fatebound visual

[haughty wigeon]

Not even in a fun way

[simple relic]

its fun seeing coins fly around ya

[haughty wigeon]

It’s telling that the coolest part of herald is the thing that makes hammer of wrath hit like a truck and the one that makes you able to use two spenders after wake of ashes

[simple relic]

herald?

[haughty wigeon]

Ye

[simple relic]

is this rogue discord

[haughty wigeon]

Fatebound is boring

[simple relic]

yeah i guess it is my bad

[haughty wigeon]

Cause it’s just a single coin

[lime lake]

the conversation is about hero talents as a whole

[haughty wigeon]

And mechanically the capstone sticks

[simple relic]

ye they cool hard to balance for devs tho

[haughty wigeon]

Trickster?

That shit is cool

[simple relic]

some cool some less cool

[haughty wigeon]

10/10 good shit

[balmy spade]

can they for fk fk fk fk finally fix killin spree i cant stand that spell anymore

[haughty wigeon]

Just remove killing spree and it’s probably one of the better hero trees

[balmy spade]

i keep depleting all of my 19s

i just cant anymore

[balmy spade]

YES

[simple relic]

mybe ur just bad

[balmy spade]

maybe

[haughty wigeon]

Blade rush is now a spender

[stiff hawk]

It really works well with sub

[stiff hawk]

That would be an idea

BLade Rush is also Uncapped

!

[simple relic]

ye was thinking about blade rush as well

[haughty wigeon]

I wonder why

[simple relic]

yday

[vivid vessel]

i prefer new talents tree idk

[vale warren]

Trickster is still kinda jank

[simple relic]

while crying myself to sleep

[vale warren]

Fazed is weird

[simple relic]

you are wierd

[stiff hawk]

Deahtstalker is also more a Sub thing

Because its fucking annoying as Sin

[haughty wigeon]

Blade rush buffed by 500%

Its now a spender

Does more damage and generates more energy more cp you use

Everything that effects killing spree effects blade rush

[fathom bramble]

I think the small amount of iteration needed to fix any remaining problems with the mists of pandaria style ones was going to be much easier than making this mess

[stiff hawk]

That you need restealth or Vanish to activate it

[haughty wigeon]

Killing spree buffed damage wise and keeps its stronger defensive aspect

Gg

[warped scarab]

I'm new here who is zac and why is he a god to the outlawers

[vivid vessel]

With the new trees we have more possible talent builds

[fathom bramble]

but is more technically possible builds even a good thing?

[wintry solar]

without trees, I wouldnt be able to make small changes to builds I dont like

[haughty wigeon]

He’s very good outlaw player

And helps tx work

Solid guy

[stiff hawk]

Didnt you say, we had more choice with covenants

[haughty wigeon]

Passionate about the spec

[stiff hawk]

than with the talent trees

[vivid vessel]

Ye, cause with tuning, you can change the meta builds so it create variety

[stiff hawk]

and legendaries

[vivid vessel]

Before you had to have external systems

[simple relic]

zac is a french canadian

[vivid vessel]

We did

[haughty wigeon]

Idk talent trees ended up giving specs access to so many things

There’s such a clear power creep with them

It kinda fucks with meta and balancing

[fathom bramble]

idk it feels like the kind of build variety we see these days could be easily represented by 2 talents on the old system

[vivid vessel]

But new talent trees is like everything was in a single place, you obviously end up with 1/2 builds viable at all time, but you have possibly more builds

[haughty wigeon]

Back then you kinda were ment to make a comp with solid variety in damage profile and utility

Now it’s just

[vivid vessel]

Altough it kinda isn't like that rn cause blizz sucks

[fathom bramble]

like I don't think this new one is bad mind you or that we should throw it out entirely

[haughty wigeon]

“Your comp is now whatever spec that does everything but bettererer

[fathom bramble]

I just think the mists one was easier to make good

[stiff hawk]

Also this Talent trees

[fathom bramble]

and spend more time giving build diversity than this one does

[stiff hawk]

and hero talents

really dont work with Tsets

Because Tsets often give direction what to play

[haughty wigeon]

I mean that could have been fixed

[stiff hawk]

so there is not a "real" choice

[simple relic]

yeah exactly it goes hand in hand

[stiff hawk]

or freedom

[haughty wigeon]

By making tswts be like

[simple relic]

theres never a real choice of freedom on dmg

[haughty wigeon]

First season generic ones

Second season is tset for one hero tree

[simple relic]

you always gonna minmax anyway

[haughty wigeon]

Third season is tset for second hero tree

[simple relic]

like mybe outlaw

idk about the other specs

[vivid vessel]

I'm french french

[lime lake]

right now there very much is though

[simple relic]

is the closest to that

with ho/kir

[stiff hawk]

They would need to do dynamic sets, that change based on your hero talent

But they would be a lot more work

[lime lake]

like i can only really speak for assa on this point since its what ive played this season

[haughty wigeon]

Being a spec with a fair amount of build option isn’t the norm

[simple relic]

yeah

i know

[haughty wigeon]

I just want to make sure you know that bel

[lime lake]

but its shown that its possible

[haughty wigeon]

Outlaw sin is lucky

[lime lake]

with this system

is the point

im not saying the system is perfect

[stiff hawk]

Go

Tell me all the Builds Sub has

[lime lake]

im saying its a good foundation to build on

[stiff hawk]

[vivid vessel]

That's cause they failed, but if you look at outlaw tree rn, if it was made well, every capstone would be gameplay changing, then you take 2/3 max at once and it create build variety

[fathom bramble]

that's a fair assessment, and it kind of relates to what I said about the mists tree being easier to make good

[haughty wigeon]

A spec has solid design floor to allow that ya

[fathom bramble]

mists tree meant just balancing between 3 choices or even just 2 with a 3rd being bad could make for multiple builds that felt different

a tree is much harder

[haughty wigeon]

Not every spec will have that

[vivid vessel]

hi, im zac, you can dm me questions and i will likely not answer

[haughty wigeon]

It’s possible

I do want to point out

[vivid vessel]

tbf they dont try much so

[haughty wigeon]

That outlaws capstone kinda sucks

[vivid vessel]

Like we have had the right side of the tree basically untouched

Since it was created

[haughty wigeon]

Only real option is kir and ho

Ghostly strike is a meme

Gsw is dead

[vivid vessel]

Gsw and gs shouldn't be capstone's

[haughty wigeon]

And crackshot is mandatory for the spec to function

But that’s fine

Cause everspec has that one capstone it needs to function now

[vivid vessel]

I mean I think it's fine to have some capstone's that are loccked

I think what we have with ho and kir for example

[haughty wigeon]

For ret is wake of ashes

[vivid vessel]

Is that jnexpect from hero takents

[haughty wigeon]

For veng it’s soul crush

[vivid vessel]

We just are missing GS and gsw to be actual things

[haughty wigeon]

For havoc it was essb

[vivid vessel]

Instead of useless shit

[haughty wigeon]

Gs can probably be swapped away for something else

Gsw turned into a execute

[stiff hawk]

But thats why they shoudl rework

Because i dont see blizzard

putting in the effort

to make them good

They are just too lazy/greedy

[vivid vessel]

Idk

[haughty wigeon]

Again once again

[vapid sundial]

Why work on retail when they can just re-release decade old content for the 10th time

[haughty wigeon]

Cycles back to why this patch cycle sucks

[vivid vessel]

I think at some point they will get it if they keep iterating

[vapid sundial]

and get an influx of subs

[haughty wigeon]

No class changes like at all

[vivid vessel]

I think one of the biggest issue with blizzard is that they stop before it's good

Basically everytime

[haughty wigeon]

And it’s cause they’re putting all hands for 11.2 and housing

[lime lake]

ye i agree

[vapid sundial]

surely

[vivid vessel]

If they rework everything again it won't be good

[stiff hawk]

Reminder

[lime lake]

i think this system has a much higher ceiling

[stiff hawk]

We had Fated and Awakened so they could make housing

[lime lake]

to potentially be good

[lime lake]

good

[haughty wigeon]

I’m so afraid for delves cause of this

[vivid vessel]

Like if you look at outlaw rn it's close to being perfect imo

[lime lake]

im looking forward to housing

[haughty wigeon]

Islands could have been delves

[lime lake]

it looks fantastic

[stiff hawk]

I couldnt care less

[lime lake]

sucks for you

[vivid vessel]

But I'm effraid they will chose to rework the whole thing instead of finishing it

[lime lake]

L nerd

[haughty wigeon]

But they stopped

[vapid sundial]

Giving us 2 seasons of shit content for housing seems pretty bad

idk

[stiff hawk]

Ye

Just hire more developers

[haughty wigeon]

Idk I still think people treated meme season to harshly for sl