any helpers
#outlaw
blissful idol
simple relic
and like getting 40% crit base for 100% criting with bte+rp
tight kernel
18.5% haste cringe?
simple relic
should be good
gaunt phoenix
it's not wrong that having to get haste rating means there is room to get more crit
but crit is devalued this tier, we get so much crit already
simple relic
or
tight kernel
No flask
simple relic
it's not wrong that having to get haste rating means there is room to get more c...
ok fair but i think my reasoning is sound
vapid sundial
glass mortar
and like getting 40% crit base for 100% criting with bte+rp
U get 20% crit chance from bte buff
gaunt phoenix
and 10% on finishers from trickster
late swallow
oh forgot about that one
gaunt phoenix
Bte is guaranteed to crit with RP even with no crit rating at all
simple relic
ok then im missing a lot of thing
s
what how isnt it 60%%
thats why u needed 40
30 now with trickster talentos
gaunt phoenix
RP is +60% crit to bte
gaunt phoenix
and then we have 10% crit as a baseline
and then 20% from bte itself
and then 10% from trickster
blissful idol
simple relic
hmm guess i was just the xd all along
vapid sundial
<:xd:758596447510855690>
dude old bte rn
simple relic
with my calculus
simple relic
wdu mean like before u had to actually be careful now u have btes all the time
feel like having it as a debuff now wouldnt be as much of a hassle
then before where it was actual once per 10-15 sec
wintry solar
Current bte is the best outlaw change since modern CP were added
late swallow
CP on target was crazy
wintry solar
And to think we liked rogue back then
wintry solar
They banned people in wow for it?
vapid sundial
No like
There were other communities who used the combo point shorthand the same way
For whatever mechanic they had and got shut down
Idk. If they fixed it
I assume so by now
But discord so I don't trust
white marten
Is it normal to feel vastly superior to everyone else when playing outlaw? Must be an unwritten spec buff
crisp condor
Anyone know why my logs sometimes break and don't record properly? I semi-frequently get stuff like this where it's not tagged as the dungeon. Set to auto start and end via RIO addon
runic gulch
Is it normal to feel vastly superior to everyone else when playing outlaw? Must ...
yeah it's one of our passives
hybrid crown
I had that happen for a TOP so annoying
normal forge
feel very annoying seeing devastation evoker cleave vs ours
wintry solar
Is it normal to feel vastly superior to everyone else when playing outlaw? Must ...
No that's just a rogue thing
copper radish
creeping into 670s feels so good
gaunt phoenix
Anyone know why my logs sometimes break and don't record properly? I semi-freque...
would guess an issue with the addon
if it starts or ends too late/soon it wont capture the key
cinder relic
feel very annoying seeing devastation evoker cleave vs ours
Have u looked what spec is the best on stix?
What dev has over outlaw is burst
normal forge
i belive you are a very serious person, but now you are being sarcastic, right?
void lintel
Hey, going to swap to outlaw from assass, what would everyone recommend?
cinder relic
i belive you are a very serious person, but now you are being sarcastic, right?
What?
normal forge
Hey, going to swap to outlaw from assass, what would everyone recommend?
dont
fading hatch
Hey, going to swap to outlaw from assass, what would everyone recommend?
Get ready to die to your own rotation a lot
wicked sigil
Hey! Plse help me to understand trickster:
When i cast dispatch at .. lets say 3cp with coup de grace. I understand that it counts as 8CP, that is good for restless blades. But does it count for the dmg of Dispatch wit 8×, or is the damage of dispatch capped at 7x?
gaunt phoenix
Hey! Plse help me to understand trickster:
When i cast dispatch at .. lets say ...
the damage works
void lintel
Tbh i just want to use molten knuckles and outlaw seems the best for it
magic shuttle
would reccomend ho build if you're playing keys
void lintel
Ho build?
magic shuttle
this is very chill build
gaunt phoenix
but KIR is harder to play and gear
for not much gain
the FAQ recommends the HO build for keys
and raid usually too
void lintel
Well id like to go w the easiest tbh xD
wicked sigil
the damage works
So the dmg would be 8x in my example?
gaunt phoenix
yes
light fossil
Should i ever hard cast slice and dice? I feel like if it's off, then between the eyes sometimes doesn't set it on
gaunt phoenix
Should i ever hard cast slice and dice? I feel like if it's off, then between th...
it is casted by dispatch
and bte casts a dispatch in stealth
you normally dont have to hard cast snd
but sometimes you do it in downtime
magic shuttle
that's a neat little minmax
shut lichen
feel very annoying seeing devastation evoker cleave vs ours
u talking about the triple beam dream?
fading hatch
this is very chill build
Ive been playing with no count the odds and ghostly strike instead, is this worse overall for m+?
Seems like outlaw has so many good options late in the tree
light fossil
If i adrenaline rush + snd before m+ key is inserted, does the buff remain? Though I'd be wasting a supercharged cp
gaunt phoenix
Ive been playing with no count the odds and ghostly strike instead, is this wors...
in my opinion, yes
CTO improves your rng a lot
HO already has a lot of RNG
magic shuttle
Ive been playing with no count the odds and ghostly strike instead, is this wors...
they are close, you can pick either talent. I just really like the no ghostly strike build
fading hatch
Ok ty guys I'll try it
magic shuttle
it's very chill to play
normal forge
u talking about the triple beam dream?
no, i dont know about these specifics, but i did a 12 key with a devo evoker, brew, and he melted those big packs, was insane stuff
gaunt phoenix
while the difference between CTO and GS output is not that much
sullen walrus
hybrid crown
If you get a crappy roll but some ace procs you can see those rtb buffs come in and everything gets back on track
gaunt phoenix
read #outlaw-faq, as questions
shut lichen
no, i dont know about these specifics, but i did a 12 key with a devo evoker, br...
well yeah cause their opener has insane burst
it levels out over the key though
fading hatch
If you get a crappy roll but some ace procs you can see those rtb buffs come in ...
Slightly less energy usage too which is nice
civic bay
More high keys are done with ghostly strike so I think it depends where you are at / how coordinated you are being
magic shuttle
also took the no GS build on mythic stix. provides decent results
civic bay
But I would just CTO and go if you are getting into it fresh
proven ocean
read <#856897810536071208>, as questions
Ok
fading hatch
More high keys are done with ghostly strike so I think it depends where you are ...
I currently just have gs macro'd into things, i dont know how far from optimal that is
But increasing outlaw apm is not something im super interested in
CTO prob a good solution for me
civic bay
I currently just have gs macro'd into things, i dont know how far from optimal t...
That’s all I do 
hybrid crown
If you get a bad roll and cto isn't there to save you your apm goes down but you are also going to do healer damage
frail veldt
No CTO just plays so much worse
magic echo
yo whats the current odds to roll a 5 buff with 4set
copper radish
4 more 12s and i get this black n red shredder mount
fading hatch
I have been persuaded. Friendship with GS ended, CTO is my best friend now
keen belfry
thoughts on this prot paladin uptime
keen belfry
solo can you tell him its lower in floodgate though
magic echo
ah so the sequence i had was only .3% chance not too rare
proven ocean
hybrid crown
more reddit rogue opinions enjoy:
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/1kq9ps0/is_there_a_reason_why_there_are_so_little_rogues/
cinder relic
these comments are so wrong it upsets me
gaunt phoenix
rogue has been low pop for years and years so definitely the 'modern' answers arent too relevant
cinder relic
I mean yeah, rogue has been unpopular for years, it's not hero talents fault, or KS fault, or actual performance in raids fault
They might be compounding issues, where the years of getting not flashy systems and overhauls leads less and less ppl to flock to it
Like covenants for example I feel ended up great on rogue, barring sepsis, all had their own feel, they all had their own set of pros and cons, i'd say it was a good system for rogue, but it wasn't ravenous frenzy, it wasn't wild spirits, it wasn't spear of bastion, they were all very lowkey, function over form
pliant wind
i just simmed myself without ACE and getting CTO in a HO build and i only lose 0.5-1% dmg
cinder relic
which you know, most ppl don't engage with the game at a function level, a lot of ppl really enjoy window dressing, which rogue doesn't have that much (which is part of what I like abt rogue in general)
crude anchor
They might be compounding issues, where the years of getting not flashy systems ...
The most common answer I get about rogue is that the leveling sucked too much to wwanna play it to max
crude anchor
Which makes sense cuz the talents that make rogue work are at the bottom for every spec
pliant wind
since a lot of expansions we dont have any utility and other classes are getting a lot
fading hatch
yep, we dont have a lot of interrupts, cc or that kind of thing
Not sure if this is a factor cus the problem has existed longer, but one thing i noticed this season is just how many mobs have truesight. I hardly ever press shroud
cinder relic
Energy is also just a repulsive mechanic for a lot of ppl
pliant wind
sometimes they get me in m+ because some shrouds routes but thats all
cinder relic
Ppl prefer waiting for cooldowns, than waiting for energy, broadly speaking
pliant wind
yep, that too
gaunt phoenix
The most common answer I get about rogue is that the leveling sucked too much to...
definitely think the dragonflight tree system severely harmed rogue leveling
cinder relic
I feel like if I was to level a rogue, I probably wouldn't hate it, but I generally enjoy energy as a resource
cinder relic
Energy is the reason rogue has a 1 second GCD
proven ocean
At this point energy should be gone
Cooked
cinder relic
So no
vivid vessel
Just serves to annoy me
cinder relic
Energy is a very important resource for rogue to have
proven ocean
Energy is a very important resource for rogue to have
cinder relic
Outlaw is a rogue spec
vivid vessel
Who we kidding rn
cinder relic
Rogue has energy
proven ocean
^
vivid vessel
Outlaw hasn't had a relevant energy since I started the game
cinder relic
Also, outlaw can very easily go back to a spec that doesnt have 95% ar uptime
vivid vessel
Outlaw energy has been "you can't play if you get fucked by rng" for as long as I started playing
gaunt phoenix
the argument is that outlaw doesnt play around energy, you either have it (you get to play the game) or you dont (you do nothing)
cinder relic
the argument is that outlaw doesnt play around energy, you either have it (you g...
What about the SL PS energy rules, what about blade rush rules we had specifically around energy for years
vivid vessel
Objectively wrong but ok
vivid vessel
That were also mega irrelevant minmaxes
cinder relic
Just because in this period of time, we don't care about energy doesn't mean it's that binary
proven ocean
That were also mega irrelevant minmaxes
For sin energy matters
Energy is fun for sin
Same for sub
cinder relic
Sub energy matters too, mainly around talenting around having enough for your burst windows
vivid vessel
I'm talking about outlaw
proven ocean
I like sub’s energy
vivid vessel
My fucking god
steady crane
Energy is fun for sin
Fun ? Single target is Boring as hell...
proven ocean
Even for outlaw like why do u want 100% ar uptime for everyone in the game
vivid vessel
Ok Im legit not talking to you rn zeross
proven ocean
vivid vessel
Cba if you. Are going to troll
cinder relic
But yeah idk, rogue has been unpopular for awhile, I can't imagine it turning around without a large scale, paladin tier rework that boils down the spec to its essentials and trims a lot of the fat that makes rogue unique
proven ocean
Although, for outlaw maybe it should have vigor baseline
pliant wind
KEKW
vivid vessel
But it is mandatory for thr class
I never said energy was bad for sub or sin
It's necessary for both specs
For outlaw it's just something that you notice when Yoh get fucked by rng
Otherwise it's useless
patent mirage
is this another yapping session
proven ocean
Ya
vivid vessel
The rules around energy have always been mega irrelevant
gaunt phoenix
barely
cinder relic
PS rules in SL did matter, blade rush rules did matter as well
Good BR usage and shit BR usage was a very common mistake for early DF
vivid vessel
I mean common lol
proven ocean
Ye ps was good no energy cost
So we played ps talents in bfa too i think
Cuz of it
patent mirage
we did
patent mirage
quickdraw was a main pick
vivid vessel
So the only time you pressed your procs was when you had 0 energy
cinder relic
we played WM at the end of SL
cinder relic
idk what ur saying rn
vivid vessel
Pistol shot just sucked so hard without qd you wlkd rather unbind it
proven ocean
Energy mattered in s3 DF outlaw btw
vivid vessel
Ye once a year
cinder relic
No?
gaunt phoenix
outlaw having a droplet of energy rules 5 years ago is not really convincing that we couldnt go without energy
proven ocean
Energy mattered in s3 DF outlaw btw
Running into crackshot without any energy starting from 0 was a disaster u did 0 dps
vivid vessel
You pressed ps when it capped cp exactly to not overcap cps with SS and when you had legit 0 energy
proven ocean
Best u could do is 1-2 bte’s
patent mirage
they coulds go on and buff fatal flourish
frail veldt
outlaw having a droplet of energy rules 5 years ago is not really convincing tha...
I still wont vanish at low energy
vivid vessel
Running into crackshot without any energy starting from 0 was a disaster u did 0...
Ye so you pulled?
frail veldt
feels wrong
proven ocean
Running into crackshot without any energy starting from 0 was a disaster u did 0...
Explain this zac
frail veldt
if im below like 50 I just wont do it haha ill wait a bit
proven ocean
?
vivid vessel
Pulling was never proven to do anything
frail veldt
you mean pooling?
vivid vessel
Pooling
proven ocean
Dont pretend that u always had full energy and always had full value of crackshot
proven ocean
If u think pooling didnt matter ur absolutely clueless
frail veldt
id rather just pool when I know im gona get fucked
proven ocean
Because in sims everything goes correct
vivid vessel
Doesn't mean you played around energy lol
proven ocean
Nothing goes wrong
vivid vessel
Ye sure bro
vivid vessel
I'm clueless about outlaw
frail veldt
feels way better
leaden folio
gtfo assa player
hidden bay
anyone know how much we have to grind for corruption?
pliant wind
xDDD
cinder relic
anyone know how much we have to grind for corruption?
Not really no
frail veldt
happens once every like 40 vanishes lol
proven ocean
I hate this pooling discussion because it feels like your entirely missing something everytime i bring it up
late swallow
Ross has a higher IO, so I’ll trust him
hidden bay
probably wont be easy getting corruption and 3% buff after work before raid 
gaunt phoenix
inventing reasons to make pooling sometimes worth it is still not convincing that we couldn't remove energy
vivid vessel
Only thing im missing is the rules you invented in your mind that were never proven to do anything
proven ocean
You either simmed it wrong or you dont know how to sim pooling, no offense
cinder relic
THey probably could remove energy from outlaw, however, they aren't going to so whats even the point of this hypothetical
vivid vessel
You either simmed it wrong or you dont know how to sim pooling, no offense
You don't even know how to sim wtf are you talking about
cinder relic
Energy is a rogue resource, outalw is a rogue spec, its going to keep energy
mighty pivot
vivid vessel
And they should give us Infinite energy again
gaunt phoenix
THey probably could remove energy from outlaw, however, they aren't going to so ...
to establish that energy only serves to be annoying
frail veldt
outlaw doesnt explicitly use energy but it drives decision making for talents and gear
vivid vessel
Si i don't feel like I'm playing assa rogue
frail veldt
energy is something you talent/gear around until you can ignore it haha
cinder relic
Energy is a bottleneck resource, it's meant to be something you either talent, or shape the rotation around
frail veldt
yea
cinder relic
It, at the same time, allows the spec to have a baseline 1 second GCD
leaden folio
outlaw is pirate spec, we should never get back SHS and Danse, but we do
vivid vessel
Ye for 0.01%
proven ocean
No pooling start at 0 energy in crackshot = 2 bte’s, or wait 5 seconds, and nail off 4-6 bte’s in one crackshot whay does more dmg? Omg not showing in sims? Sure
tawny adder
Maybe they should make it so some abilities cost energy but energy is built up with other attacks. Also blade flurry just buffs the next 2-4 attacks to do AoE before you have to press it again
vivid vessel
Ross about to tell you that was infinite gain and I'm clueless
patent mirage
remember when we had to press shiv if 5/6 cp and less than 40 energy
i remember when shiv's cd would depend on your offhand weapons speed in wotlk
proven ocean
Literally double the crackshot value
vivid vessel
No pooling start at 0 energy in crackshot = 2 bte’s, or wait 5 seconds, and nai...
You are waiting 5 seconds doing nothing as outlaw ?
proven ocean
When it never happened in sims
patent mirage
and if you used a very fast oh you could spam it
pliant wind
u re losing probably buff durations and rotation because that wait
proven ocean
I cba with you
You always had a sim brain
Never understood real gameplay
It is what it is
vivid vessel
Sure
desert tendon
u both shut up now
patent mirage
ok we get it lets move on
pliant wind
u proc less
proven ocean
Zac comes up pretending he never had a 1-2 bte crackshot in his life
leaden folio
waiting 5 sec, loose alacrity and everything, lmao
cinder relic
There are situations that are so infrequent in a sim that U can't really sim for it
vivid vessel
Love talking with people that make bold claims that you can never back up
proven ocean
There are situations that are so infrequent in a sim that U can't really sim for...
Thats what i mean
desert tendon
also zero, explain yourself , what does that even means? 
proven ocean
vivid vessel
I'm playing outlaw without ever looking at my energy bar rn
cinder relic
Theres a handful of sin "rules" that u can't really sim as the situations that happen are so infreuqent they show up in a sim maybe 100 times in a 100k iteration sim
vivid vessel
I never looked at my energy bar back in df s3 either
cinder relic
so it says "yeah this is error margin nothing matters here"
proven ocean
Theres a handful of sin "rules" that u can't really sim as the situations that h...
Sin master showed up
vivid vessel
Sin isn't outlaw
proven ocean
waiting 5 sec, loose alacrity and everything, lmao
Alacrity doesnt mean shit
Besides
U always lost that
Cuz its not guaranteed anymore
It isnt s1 DF
gaunt phoenix
that's not relevant
you can artificially gimp outlaw energy and still be unable to prove pooling worth it
because Outlaw actively gets more energy by pressing buttons instead of idling
proven ocean
Same as guy said
U cant prove anything on sin either
Even tho it does exist
But super rare
leaden folio
the only reason i would stop dps for 1 or 2 sec ; its about to get a cleave situation so I keep max combo and vanish to blast
vivid vessel
Not the same spec but ok
leaden folio
except that
cinder relic
Sims are very useful but at a certain point u just gotta ball out based on heuristics because theres only so much of a script you can keep in mind, especially when x y z a b c l m n o p are all compounding variables
vivid vessel
Nice talk
leaden folio
I never hold
proven ocean
Besides fatalfourish is not as big as u think
It looks big overall
But
In that specific situation
It wont matter
vivid vessel
Sims are very useful but at a certain point u just gotta ball out based on heuri...
And everytime I tell you how outlaw energy is shit you just tell me you have 999% uptime if ADR in sims and they get 0 downtime etc
But now that it serves your point in a completely detourned eay
proven ocean
Now sure, high ar uptime
cinder relic
Nothing I said right now contradicts what I said in the past
frail veldt
feast or famine systems usually arent enjoyable by players I think
proven ocean
We’re talking about s3 DF originally that it existed
cinder relic
Every single mythic raid fight, barring like, 2-3 an expansion, have less than 98% melee DPS uptime
raw frost
Anyone with a blade furry weakaura that literally calls me idiot or cuss me out if I dont have up with more than one add around?
vivid vessel
I hope you will be mentionning energy in your article guy
frail veldt
98% uptime where its 0.2% loss of uptime distributed feels way less bad than if all the 2% downtime was all at once
cinder relic
I don't because I don't think energy is a problem
proven ocean
No one said it was a problem
patent mirage
time to let go dude
frail veldt
well would outlaw be more compelling if energy mattered?
shut lichen
seems to be the classic situation of a Tale of Two Cities
vivid vessel
Ye you should
proven ocean
Guy plays rogue, i dont think you even have anything to say against him writing for outlaw when he works for it
Smart ass
cinder relic
I play outlaw I just don't play it rn lol
proven ocean
I play outlaw I just don't play it rn lol
Nah u gotta login right now play an outlaw key before writing an outlaw article
Otherwise it doesnt count
cinder relic
I don't think the spec is fun rn and I play the game for fun on farm
I don't think energy is the reason the spec isn't fun for me rn
vivid vessel
Not a single outlaw key
proven ocean
I don't think energy is the reason the spec isn't fun for me rn
I agree
vivid vessel
You haven't played outlaw
shut lichen
find what you have in common rather than what you have different
vivid vessel
Sure bro
shut lichen
tawny adder
I only dislike that when AR drops it FEELS horrible. If it didnt completely take all of the speed out of my gameplay, i‘d be fine with it. Dropping AR should still be very bad for DPS, but it shouldn‘t feel like I‘m a level 27 again
vivid vessel
Nah u gotta login right now play an outlaw key before writing an outlaw article
You have to play the spec you are going to write an article on?
Ye no shit bro
patent mirage
zac
patent mirage
you have had enough
proven ocean
You have to play the spec you are going to write an article on?
Guy prob played outlaw for longer time than you ever did no offense just relax abit
vivid vessel
Ye and current outlaw isn't BFA outlaw
proven ocean
If anything hes the main outlaw guy
cinder relic
Like I said, I play the game for fun, Outlaw isn't fun rn, so why would I play it rn
vivid vessel
No idea what this means
hybrid crown
Outlaw in its current state has existed since DF season 3 tbf
cinder relic
I don't need to play the spec every single waking hour and day to know what I don't like about the spec rn
proven ocean
Like I said, I play the game for fun, Outlaw isn't fun rn, so why would I play i...
Literally what everyone is saying, i’d play it too but it isnt fun, other sin/sub players say the same
desert tendon
outlaw tww is garbo
vivid vessel
Sure
hybrid crown
Everything before that kinda doesn't matter it's so different from that
desert tendon
shut lichen
almost like people have different expectations they want out of their spec
vivid vessel
Another expac of guy on copium about energy not being an issue kekw
hybrid crown
I love trickster in keys until I'm doing one where KS kills me
frail veldt
outlaw was fun with the coup exploit bug and guy didn't try it
it was a little much
vivid vessel
You know ho doesn't even play vigor anymore
past falcon
i think outlaw is fun right now 😦
hybrid crown
If they rework trickster outlaw is perfect
vivid vessel
You should try it
frail veldt
I dont think the coup bug was better playstyle than non coup bug
I think we just liked having even more cdr
shut lichen
plus everyone is wrong and s4 SL outlaw is where it's at
cinder relic
I also talk with loktark and solo about what they think about my articles and see if my perspective on the spec seems to line up with people who are much more active with playing the spec
I used to ask you for opinions, but your ego, and awful personality made me stop bothering
vivid vessel
Ye for sure
frail veldt
You know ho doesn't even play vigor anymore
doesnt that mean energy is less of an issue
desert tendon
energy is currently bad for outlaw imo, the way it currently works. If you re fucked, then you re double fucked
frail veldt
if they dont even have to take vigor
desert tendon
but what do i know i quitted
frail veldt
I mean energy is def less an issue now than it was in DF
vivid vessel
No it means ho also get into the dogshit loops
frail veldt
at least it feels like it
vivid vessel
Of having 0 energy
shut lichen
I mean energy is def less an issue now than it was in DF
for sure
frail veldt
well thats because our energy got better
desert tendon
No it means ho also get into the dogshit loops
yea as i said, the more you fucked, the more you re fucked
shut lichen
ur ain't dying of thirst as much
desert tendon
loop
vivid vessel
Ye I guess you guys are god gamers Perma full on energy my bad
frail veldt
not saying that
shut lichen
what?
vivid vessel
Everytime I lose ADR I wanna cut my wrists because outlaw turn into a 10 sec GCD spec
frail veldt
just saying the fact taht HO could drop vigor means our energy improved
frail veldt
I think just due to how outlaws designed, as logn as its possible to run out of eneryg, there will be "feelsbad" energy moments
even though they are few and far between
vivid vessel
It wasn't like that before
cinder relic
My bad I don't agree with zac therefore my credentials are being attacked sorry guys
frail veldt
I think if we evened out our energy consumption it would help it to feel better
like remove GS
vivid vessel
And idk why we keep ignoring it
frail veldt
honestly without GS I literally NEVER have energy issues as HO
an off gcd energy sink like GS is awful for our rotation
tbh
glass mortar
Fatal flourish shouldn't exist honestly
frail veldt
horrible button
gaunt phoenix
you know how many people ask if they can remove supercharger for vigor again
frail veldt
Fatal flourish shouldn't exist honestly
I wish it was more consistent yeah
past falcon
You lose ADR you can't even maintain bf in AOE anymore
an argument could be made this is the easiest way for average players to understand if they’re doing rotation right… if it feels Really Bad try not to do it etc etc
glass mortar
Why does 40% of our energy budget come from a rng source
shut lichen
you know how many people ask if they can remove supercharger for vigor again
is that a frequent request?
vivid vessel
My bad I don't agree with zac therefore my credentials are being attacked sorry ...
Your credentials are being attacked cause you don't play the spec you write guides for?
glass mortar
Even a heavily normalize done
gaunt phoenix
Yes
glass mortar
Doesn't feel necessary
frail veldt
each auto should just give us energy
past falcon
it’s just that sometimes it happens largely outside of our control and those feel bad
past falcon
what like ruptures for sin
proven ocean
Its just zac being zac again
vivid vessel
And you like just being an annoyance that bring legit 0 to the conversation
proven ocean
Disagreeing = annoying
desert tendon
would flood wowhead with bug articles 
vivid vessel
Negative contribution thanks for that
frail veldt
what like ruptures for sin
essentially
frail veldt
fatal flourish is another feast or famine mechanic tbh
vivid vessel
I forgot disagreeing with zac isn't allowed
Idk how this always turn into that bro
frail veldt
fuck rng
I think people are coping kinda hard when they say outlaw players "love rng" lol
vivid vessel
Everyone knows outlaw is dogshit to play if you aren't able to maintain 100% ADR because you have 0 energy
frail veldt
I think rng is the thing we complain about the most
cinder relic
It's weird that my other article that I asked for your opinions on in the past seemed to be "Yep don't disagree" but now you are pissed, because?
Just weird bro
proven ocean
It's weird that my other article that I asked for your opinions on in the past s...
Is that actually zac
U really changed man
vivid vessel
It's weird that my other article that I asked for your opinions on in the past s...
It's an article about the new stuffs of outlaw wtf you want me to say
Wdym weird
shut lichen
U really changed man
wdym the pfp is the same?
void lintel
Should i get knuckles or iron thumb as my first weapon?
cinder relic
U haven't even seen the outlaw article and you are pissy about it for what erason
cinder relic
Because I don't think its an issue
cinder relic
You have complained about energy for years, I have never seen energy as an issue, even when I was literally playing the spec all day, every day, in and out
Why would I now talk about energy, when I never thought it was a problem in the past
vivid vessel
You forgot to realize we dont even have vigor anymore, you forgot to realize the spec changed multiple timmes
cinder relic
Not answering the question
vivid vessel
Spec changed
It's more of an issue
Than it was
In SL
It's the same shit with uptime
Everytime talk about uptime being an issue
You are like
shut lichen
tbf even if energy isn't a problem for you a little addition that some people have issue with energy is not a bad idea to add
vivid vessel
But bro people have been saying uptime is an issue since SL
shut lichen
up to Blizzard anyway to decide if they agree
vivid vessel
And it wasn't an issue
Except the spec changed
But you will mention uptime issues
Cause that's obvious
cinder relic
Ppl have said uptime is an issue since BFA
vivid vessel
Right
cinder relic
Since legion
cinder relic
thats not what I said
The reliance on uptime has been increased with things like UHUH
opal cosmos
thats not what I said
Hey Forever Can u check ur dms pls?
shut lichen
isn't uptime an issue for most melees nowadays?
past falcon
idk if energy is an issue by itself, but yes if you get unlucky with mechanics, or are an average player and make a mistake, it can feel very punishing to lose adrenaline rush. and that can possibly make it hard for newer players to get a good grasp of outlaw and its rotation - because muscle memory helps so much w this spec - but u also need data before just making a blanket statement
vivid vessel
Uptime is an issue because we have dogshit energy outside of ADR now
fluid meadow
idk how correct this graph, but this is zacs log, avg players and mid/low players has so much issue with energy, like there are segments with 15-20 sec without energy
proven ocean
Uptime is an issue because we have dogshit energy outside of ADR now
I believe uptime is an issue due to acrobatic strikes
past falcon
I believe uptime is an issue due to acrobatic strikes
perfect give acro back, done
glass mortar
Zac have u figured out why intermission on sprocket is so gigafukt. I swear I'm sitting on top of the guy facing him the whole time yet I have zero energy
Every intermission
It's like autos just rnt going off
red zinc
pooling on outlaw 
vivid vessel
I think you aren't hitting him face front
I'm doing the same shit
Staffing weird
Idk
Your melee cone is smaller than abilities cone
You can try on dummies
It's very noticeable
glass mortar
Yea his hit box should be twice the size during intermisson
Actually so gross
Trying to auto him
When 40% of ur resources come from autos xd
Legit just perma 20 energy entire phase even when im proccing
gaunt phoenix
there's no way to defend that you can get RNG fucked into not playing the game
late swallow
Have we added the new pooling conditions to the guide?
proven ocean
Have we added the new pooling conditions to the guide?
Not a gain in zac’s gameplay, so no
shut lichen
Have we added the new pooling conditions to the guide?
pretty sure that was an argument for df and not this expansion
gaunt phoenix
zeross
vivid vessel
zeross shut the fuck you are so annoyuing
jesus
vivid vessel
idk why you fuel on triggering people
shut lichen
man they better rework KS
vivid vessel
cringe af man
gaunt phoenix
all you do is bait and then say relax
shut lichen
so we can stop negative yapping
glass mortar
there's no way to defend that you can get RNG fucked into not playing the game
I understand some specs having the rng variance in their resources to aquire vanilla gameplay
Mayne that doesn't belong on outlaw thi
gaunt phoenix
but idk if it's baiting or just dumb
proven ocean
now ur calling me dumb
glass mortar
No, it could also be baiting
cinder relic
Sin resource variance 
shut lichen
this shit ain't that deep
glass mortar
Sin is a spec designed to have long downtimes tho?
I did say I understand the design
I'm just not sure it belongs on outlaw
late swallow
this shit ain't that deep
My girlfriend when there’s no more pp left
vivid vessel
its been an issue since legion bro
glass mortar
Going from the fastest spec in the game to literal vanilla rogue simulator
shut lichen
My girlfriend when there’s no more pp left
leaden folio
Remember when assa gameplay change a bit ? I dont
opal cosmos
Are there any WA with Sounds for Outlaw rogue? Like letting us know when we can roll the bones again etc
cinder relic
warrior can get pretty bad with procs, its a lot less common tho for sure than what can happen with outlaw
glass mortar
And fury has a filler crap button always available if it does rarely go dry
Ur always hitting a gcd idk
shut lichen
Is far more noticeable then any other spec
isn't that cause we're always trying to go 0 to 60 while other classes just stay in cruise control?
glass mortar
There's never a point of real downtime
gaunt phoenix
now ur calling me dumb
i type dumb things too
opaque oxide
@gaunt phoenix yo u are back
cinder relic
arms is very similar APM to fury but if y ou dont get OP procs ur mega AFK sometimes
gaunt phoenix
sure
late swallow
so we're pooling to max energy between globals now?
vivid vessel
not much of a choice since one builder deplete your entire energy bar
shut lichen
arms is very similar APM to fury but if y ou dont get OP procs ur mega AFK somet...
arms uptime is as annoying as ours
cinder relic
Outlaw players if they had to experience 1% of the pain of losing 13 stacks of jugg
fallen knot
please kill me ingame
cinder relic
late swallow
Outlaw players if they had to experience 1% of the pain of losing 13 stacks of j...
dropping AR is worse
i mean objectively
white marten
Its like they never ran a key with an outlaw rogue before.
cinder relic
dropping AR is worse
Bro it isnt
late swallow
it is bro
shut lichen
Outlaw players if they had to experience 1% of the pain of losing 13 stacks of j...
suicidal thoughts guaranteed
late swallow
I've played warrior
cinder relic
Losing 13 stacks jugg is 9/11
opal cosmos
https://wago.io/Pd53s_NPU
Thanks
Are the more like this with oder spells too?
late swallow
idk man i disrespectfully disagree
cinder relic
AR affects the rotation more but the psychic damage of 13 stacks jugg is so bad
shut lichen
u have to do some dangerous shit sometimes to kep them jugg stacks going
vivid vessel
ye
im playing so chill rn as outlaw
lil ks there and there
chilling in the park
cinder relic
SD being such a low chance proc is so lame
vivid vessel
nothing dangerous
leaden folio
https://tenor.com/view/zoro-zoro-reaction-one-piece-thriller-bark-roronoa-zoro-g...
everytime i got a 2 parry in a row on my finisher
cinder relic
everytime i got a 2 parry in a row on my finisher
Not possible because ur playing trickster on outlaw now 
steady crane
But what solution can exist? Lower AR cd ? Getting stack on it ? It would be Uber strong ..?
vivid vessel
and sproket dont parry
late swallow
even KB can't get parried anymore
fallen knot
https://tenor.com/view/zoro-zoro-reaction-one-piece-thriller-bark-roronoa-zoro-g...
everytime i sim hoping for circlet to go away, but it stays
vivid vessel
so actually not possible
shut lichen
parries in this economy?
livid sluice
Its like they never ran a key with an outlaw rogue before.
how much did you even do lol
leaden folio
Not possible because ur playing trickster on outlaw now <:nerdie:120540207010729...
trickster on st raid sadly
formal axle
Guys i just played a key as outlaw. This spec is miles more fun than assass ( i am sub main ) 😎 currently i tried HO cuz of haste low , is Keep it rolling more fun ?
gaunt phoenix
depends who you ask
formal axle
Fair
vivid vessel
keep it rolling is for ego players that think they are better than everyone
cinder relic
KiR is more work for the same damage, rougly speaking
frail veldt
Outlaw honestly feels great right now
white marten
how much did you even do lol
They were easily impressed, i didn’t do anything spectacular. 😂
formal axle
keep it rolling is for ego players that think they are better than everyone
ok not for me then
frail veldt
Outside of ks
cinder relic
Society if Trickster was tied to Blade Rush
vivid vessel
ok not for me then <:garf:1320173032743899157>
you dont have to be better than everyone
just think that you are
shut lichen
keep it rolling is for ego players that think they are better than everyone
so true and based
frail veldt
I like KS as a finisher with a long CD that does good damage though so I hope they rework keeps some part of that
proven ocean
Im eating 5 guys rn
shut lichen
expensive ass burger ross
formal axle
just think that you are
understood
proven ocean
expensive ass burger ross
Discount so wont say no
shut lichen
fair play then
white marten
So when is blizzard going to make KS also cast a “cloak of shadows” without incurring a CD?
cinder relic
Never because that would be gamebreaking
vivid vessel
would it
steady crane
And make a way to cancel the spell ?
vivid vessel
it essentially does that already
shut lichen
free cloak on KS
steady crane
Even with a damage drop ?
vivid vessel
even better actually since ks can soak any type of damage
shut lichen
i feel it could be abused
vivid vessel
is there anyone abusing current ks
hybrid crown
I mean you will still die to like half the ground shit
Cloak doesn't work for a lot of things
vivid vessel
because its basically better than having ks granting cloak btw
hollow portal
the conversation was good until they only focused on energy xd I think rogue is not that popular because blizzard does not give love to the class, mainly in terms of design / animations. Playing outlaw today is difficult if you have never played before, having to learn all the rolls, having your rng screwed, dropping AR and competing in dps with heal etc, but apart from that the animations, do you know how beautiful a fire mage is in combustion? or hero talents like the shaman when he has tempest? rogue practically has no animations, literally fatebound's animation is a currency that nobody sees and trickter is not to be mentioned. The only nice animation I would say is KS and this one literally kills you
thorn river
Im eating 5 guys rn
wish i was 1 of them
shut lichen
and cloak it
yeah but the implication is it doesn't use ur cloak cd anyway
cinder relic
the conversation was good until they only focused on energy xd I think rogue is ...
My main counter argument here is that Rogue has been insanely unpopular for years now, way before hero talents, way before covenants
shut lichen
so ur just basically able to soak the entire world
white marten
If the camera follows KS around, then the camera should spin around whenever monks do spinning crane kick. Js
cinder relic
I think if they wanted to turn around rogue popularity, which I don't inherenetly think is a good thing, would be a large scale rework similar to paladin where you make the spec flashier, dumb is down by a lot
vivid vessel
you cant saok shit nowadays
every soak in the game require x amount of players in it also
or wipe
so like i cant think of anything
shut lichen
never underestimate the gamer ability to cheese the fuck out of things
vivid vessel
- you litteralyt dont control your character
gaunt phoenix
probably where a lot of the opinions in that thread come from, seeing low popularly as a bad thing
vivid vessel
i wish i could cheese things with ks bro
hidden bay
is there anyone abusing current ks
i saw you not moving out of gallywix blue circle
shut lichen
you cant saok shit nowadays
i didn't mean soak like those
shut lichen
just meant like take a hit
vivid vessel
i saw you not moving out of gallywix blue circle
thats just cause you can litteraly feint it btw
shit does 0 damage
shut lichen
probs could have used better word there i guess
vivid vessel
but also thats nto a cheese
white marten
I really hope they dont dumb down outlaw. But i wouldnt mind having more build variety outside of Crackshot
vivid vessel
thatsj ust
hidden bay
inside?
hidden bay
i thought it one shots
vivid vessel
naaah
late swallow
did we figure out what zeross' outlaw energy min max was?
is that why he does so much damage?
vivid vessel
if you are like 3 yards away full life with feint you already cant die
idk
0 damage bro
white marten
Bfa outlaw was BIS
shut lichen
is that why he does so much damage?
we left this one behind 20 mins ago
hidden bay
ok i blame you if i die next reclear
shut lichen
the future is now old man
vivid vessel
ok i blame you if i die next reclear
good luck
rocky shell
is it worth to ever go from focusing lens to crit or versa embelishments?
gaunt phoenix
pooling is real and zac is clueless
vivid vessel
proof
steady crane
the conversation was good until they only focused on energy xd I think rogue is ...
Well today new comer join mage, paladin, hunter ... Both are good. Ret is always good. Not the best but strong. Mage is always s+.
In the other hand Rogue is "hard". Not fun to level. Less flashy. Frustrating on some point
I think it's why it's less played.
gaunt phoenix
is it worth to ever go from focusing lens to crit or versa embelishments?
Not really
late swallow
we left this one behind 20 mins ago
gaunt phoenix
just stay lens
hidden bay
new outlaw pooling tech discovered?
rocky shell
just stay lens
ty
shut lichen
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/124169701881282560/1372958800369422469/9u...
actual terrorist activities
tbf fuck outlaw
and fuck sin
where is my sub tier at?
cinder relic
Every tier for the past 4 years?
thorn river
sin boring af in raid, do ur burst +2 envenoms -> fap for 2 mins -> repeat
hollow portal
Well today new comer join mage, paladin, hunter ... Both are good. Ret is always...
The new Dark Ranger hunter animations are incredible, when they came out I even wanted to play a hunter even though I hate that class lol paladin when he throws his wings looks good, mage in combustion looks good etc.
shut lichen
Every tier for the past 4 years?
yeah but it's usually it starts out that way and finishes reverse
cinder relic
Not really
Vault was a sub tier, sin got nerfed because exsang was like a 50% dps talent and then it was dead all tier
Abberus was a sub tier, sin was just bad again
late swallow
amir was a giga sub tier
cinder relic
Amidrasil was a sin tier, until u got to smolderon and sin got nerfed, and sub was the best spec in the entire game
Nerubar was a sub tier, sin got buffed and was still worse other than ovinax ig
shut lichen
guess i'm just chatting shit tbf
anyway i wanna play sub
is the tl:dr
shit feels fun
cinder relic
Well u had like 6 years to play sub
hidden bay
this tier was sub tier for a good while too
shut lichen
Well u had like 6 years to play sub
sorry i was playing whatever my guild needed
warr
cinder relic
was sub tier until sin buffs, and every spec in the game getting buffed, and the things sub was good at got nerfed to not matter anymore
GG
late swallow
if you were giga fast progging, you basically got to play sub for this entire tier
except for mugger
livid sluice
was sub tier until sin buffs, and every spec in the game getting buffed, and the...
this tier?
livid sluice
Didn't sub just scale awfully with ilvl this tier too though
cinder relic
its just NA is a bunch of pussies
white marten
Saying sub is fun is a wild take
cinder relic
Scaling is fake in modern wow
Sin got buffed, while it was close to even on most fights
and then they buffed every spec in the game, and then they nerfed the things sub was good at on the fights, where sub can't flex its strengths anymore
void lintel
Hey, so i got this as off hand for now, should i get knuckles or gally's weap?
civic void
Hey, so i got this as off hand for now, should i get knuckles or gally's weap?
Thats an int weapon sir
white marten
Rip
thorn river
❓
void lintel
Sad
white marten
Ah okay
livid sluice
and then they buffed every spec in the game, and then they nerfed the things sub...
makes sense
white marten
Sooo which one should i get?
Can you get myth?
cinder relic
Ppl have said for years Outlaw "scales like shit" which is true in a very abstract sense, but it's like, a good spec this tier while sub is worse
void lintel
Can you get myth?
Nope
cinder relic
ppl also said sub used to scale well, but now it doesnt? idk
Scaling is just a load of nonsense
livid sluice
Ppl have said for years Outlaw "scales like shit" which is true in a very abstra...
I just remember feeling like my sub damage was not going up much with ilvls compared to Sin LMFAO but i forgot sin was getting buffs at the time
glass mortar
Scalings real just not usually super relevant
cinder relic
Sin got like a 6% buff that week 
glass mortar
Idk who thinks sub scales well tho
void lintel
So either option will likely serve as a offhand.
Oh sad 😦
shut lichen
Scaling is just a load of nonsense
the only dps with good scaling is evokers
glass mortar
Spec has vers as it's best stat like us. They just have a good mastery
glass mortar
the only dps with good scaling is evokers
They r unironically one of the best
But not the only one
void lintel
Can always sim to make sure 🤗
I dont even have my main hand rn xD
Swapping from assass
hidden bay
scaling matters a lot. like you do a droptimizer early in season and get fuck all gear because everything is bigger upgrade on better classes
shut lichen
They r unironically one of the best
tbf i was making a pun but that works too
white marten
Swapping from assass
Oh hey me too- i crafted a 681 main hand
young wadi
In the outlaw FAQ, is that up to date on the current patch? Sorry I’m new just making sure I’m following the right builds
gaunt phoenix
Yes
runic bough
Swapping from assass
I wouldnt recommend outlaw we are being trolled right now with trollingspree.
void lintel
I wouldnt recommend outlaw we are being trolled right now with trollingspree.
But, its cool 😦
runic bough
If sin had same run speed I would be all over that spec
void lintel
Im at 670 w 4 set on my assass and cant deal more than 5m dmg on m+
hybrid crown
I hate KS but I enjoy outlaw so much I just deal with it
livid sluice
I just find sin so boring in keys
runic bough
I get hit by all the mechanics without outlaw run speed
hybrid crown
It helps if you just avoid floodgate completely
cinder relic
In keys its very active
livid sluice
its the boss fights that kills me yeah
daring oxide
hybrid crown
Outlaw guide for floodgate: dont
runic bough
Also the hardest thing to learn on sin is the aoe
runic bough
What
hybrid crown
Maybe I should try floodgate more because I don't mind dfc as outlaw
runic bough
Flood is my worst outlaw key due to trollingspree holding on every single boss. Rook is a close second.
hybrid crown
But the moss boss and basically second half of the dungeon I had such a bad time
glass mortar
Floodgate u troll other people not urself
vivid vessel
idk
glass mortar
glass mortar
They need to just learn to outplay u
vivid vessel
sometimes
runic bough
Also flood trash cancels trollingspree
gaunt phoenix
last boss, you hold it during turbo charge, oh well
runic bough
Flood is worst outlaw key by far
hybrid crown
When you 1 pt KS run to max mele on candle and still get stunned 😣
runic bough
white marten
last boss, you hold it during turbo charge, oh well
Thats my favorite time to use it. Its like Russian roulette.
vivid vessel
also you can get stunned btw
hybrid crown
I have done a lot of keys this season and only 3 flood gates
vivid vessel
by the lines
like it doesnt even matter
idk why
but you take 0 damage
i get stunned in 18s and shit sometimes
doesnt do shit
runic bough
When u get stunned is when you die
mighty pivot
flood is better when you press ambush as a ho 
white marten
Flood is my 2nd favorite. Only behind Plaguefall and Sanguine depths. Waiting for that to be in the dungeon pool next season.
past falcon
BRING PLAGUEFALL BACK
runic bough
Mechanic will line you while stunned and kill you
edgy pond
anyone has the RTB weakaura ShadesofGrey uses with the sounds and stuff?
white marten
I love plaguefall jail
runic bough
I want shadesofgrey UI looks nice
white marten
Whos that? Youtuber?
white marten
Is he a better outlaw rogue than Zac?
runic bough
No
white marten
Be honest, he is
proven ocean
wish i was 1 of them
proven ocean
excellent judgement ryucooked
white marten
No
That RtB WA is on the wago site, like one of the most popular ones for outlaw
Just filter and itll be like one of the top 3
runic bough
I would be lost without my wa
I'm so used to it now
I do not want to start all over with another WA
Lol
steady crane
I would be lost without my wa
Blizzard didn't sayed they want to delete it in the futur ?
runic bough
I dont care hopefully new game replace wow by then
white marten
Outlaw without WAs. Imagine lol
gaunt phoenix
they're not deleting weakauras, at least not simple buff trackers
they want native game features to have similar functionality
steady crane
Outlaw without WAs. Imagine lol
Not just outlaw. Ret is playable without but heh...
steady crane
they want native game features to have similar functionality
Yep but if i remember what the director sayed. It was to lower the possivility/impact of addon/wa
Because player who don't use them are tottaly less effective. And the game is too much "automated" (not sure if this word)
gaunt phoenix
they're not targeting weakauras, they are targeting the necessity to have them
also idt they mention weakauras even
it was DBM/BigWigs/GTFO/nameplate stuff
that the convo was broadly about
runic bough
If they made a simple in-game plater and timer customization we wouldn't need WA but they havnt in 21 years so
steady crane
Not targeting wa but addons. And it's one if not the most used addon.
gaunt phoenix
They dont like weakauras influencing encounter design
steady crane
Indeed ui can be better for sure.
runic bough
I dont get how wow is the only game with no announcement info during boss fights. Literally every game has this.
gaunt phoenix
there's just no reason to believe they will stop outlaw from being able to track its buffs and procs
steady crane
They dont like weakauras influencing encounter design
Tbh they're right but idk how they can go back on this
runic bough
Players made WA to do announcements and timers because the game lacked these simple features.
And they never were added still
If they cared, they would have replaced add-ons by now its been 20 years.
And the game should be 99% bug free
So many things could be better if they were for the customer experience
This game had so much potential.
Just went into the wrong ownership.
runic bough
Fr fr
covert kestrel
This game had so much potential.
Yeah ded game
civic void
Are shareholders pooling before a crackshot window ?
red zinc
up and coming game with a lot of potential is how I would describe wow for sure
covert kestrel
Are shareholders pooling before a crackshot window ?
P**ling is a banned word in this channel
frail veldt
Then I would put shadesofgrey
whos shades of grey
runic bough
I think they are making the one button thing so they can sell more accounts to botters
Imo
cinder relic
?
covert kestrel
up and coming game with a lot of potential is how I would describe wow for sure
It really has had no impact on the gaming world or culture in general in 20+ years, like come on its dead get overnit
runic bough
frail veldt
like you say genuinely the dumbest shit
runic bough
I know botting is a underground community
red zinc
its a character
frail veldt
I know botting is a underground community
honestly at this point I dont think you know anything
civic void
The plot thickens, the deep state might be driving Blizzard decisions
runic bough
Hey but seriously
If stealth about to fall off and zero energy
Do I send ks or
Bte
thorn river
u pool