The spec also used to generate 2 combo points from opportunity, not 4
#outlaw
cinder relic
wintry solar
Good times
I don't mind vanish gameplay but the subterfuge looping is hella annoying
frail rover
!fuu
ornate heathBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
hybrid crown
make a new rogue and level to like 30
thats outlaw without constant AR*
it sucks ass
rotund zodiac
I miss dreadblades
storm drum
Alright guys im fairly new to rogue havent played since DF i jsut came back from season 1 as an enhance. im only 653 ilvl. I have cafted most pieces for assa. Is outlaw decent in raid with all the aoe on most fights or is assa caustic splatter better in raids and the single target burst? or does it matter also I got aotc and downed the first two mythic bosses this week on my first week raiding?
cinder relic
Alright guys im fairly new to rogue havent played since DF i jsut came back from...
Play whatever spec u want
wintry solar
I miss dreadblades
Same
cinder relic
Play a spec u think is fun/cool
storm drum
Play a spec u think is fun/cool
Thats the thing is i liike outlaw better. But if assa just does more dmg in raid then ill swap but if outlaw is viable ill play outlaw. They asked me to play rogue so im getting all the drops from raid only rogue in a guild life is good
wintry solar
More and more people are growing tired of this outlaw, I wonder what's happen in say The Last Titan
rotund zodiac
They fixed bugs so fast I’m kinda surprised
wintry solar
Even when it was a finisher it wasnt
flat latch
is it normal for HO to sim well below KIR on dslice?
haughty wigeon
but ya the spec also changed like gu ysaid
it just feels kinda badge
with less energy generation and opp meme
sullen narwhal
Dunno, i think it has potential, but isn't quite great yet
cinder relic
with less energy generation and opp meme
This is the end result of giving them spec infinite resources
cinder relic
Idk if it sucks, it's different, and not for me
Idrgaf about healthy or not, people like it, and it's fun to some
haughty wigeon
fair enough
unborn basin
its fun, fast paced .. but gives me gout
haughty wigeon
to me like everything fun is fun and what not
cinder relic
In BFA the spec had 45% ar uptime, and no ways to augment RTB chance
haughty wigeon
but so many specs end up slowly rotting away due to unhealthy spec design choices
cinder relic
Now the spec has 4+ buffs the entire fight with 99% ar uptime
haughty wigeon
theres obviously a balance
cinder relic
as opportunity fills your combo point bar
proven ocean
This is the end result of giving them spec infinite resources
true
haughty wigeon
and i feel like theyre close to ggetting it with outlaw
proven ocean
and btw
runic bough
GUYS
wintry solar
And 7cp points
cinder relic
It was
runic bough
WE SO BACK
proven ocean
better
wintry solar
10 supercharged
cinder relic
And the spec wasn't slow back then either lol
sullen narwhal
Coup adds 3 cp right?
cinder relic
AR was a button u pressed, u felt it
and when it was down for a bit, it sucked a bit
But it was the same outlaw where good play means more AR
cinder relic
So good players would have 45% and bad players would have 35%
proven ocean
it wasnt up all the time right
cinder relic
I mean I really liked BFA outlaw
cinder relic
Gonna highlight that in the article
torpid fiber
I disliked bfa rtb is my main issue with that version of the spec
wintry solar
Resources I get but wdym by stuff?
proven ocean
well people just hate everything so idk
sullen narwhal
Is there a single reason to play fate instead of trick in m+?
proven ocean
that is the main issue why people cant play outlaw in the top top end
because 99% ar uptime is a huge skill gap
very hard to maintain
in m+ atleast
cinder relic
Resources I get but wdym by stuff?
Pistol shot giving 4-7 combo points is insane
RTR having 4+ buff uptime the entire fight is insane
AR being at 99% uptime is insane
wintry solar
I see
frail veldt
Bro @gaunt phoenix I hate as 1pt fth when youre low cps and you press fth it DOESNT get you to finish condition and its tripping me up so bad
wintry solar
Yeah it's bananas and idk if they'll ever cull that stuff
cinder relic
"They turned this spec into assasinationr ogue bro"
"they killed the fun"
"The devs just are nerfing fun"
storm drum
No they didnt outlaw id ouble the actions per minute assa is like what/.?
torpid fiber
if they kill 7cp at the same time as fth it'll feel the same as before tbh
sullen narwhal
I mean, i agree to be honest, i think the current iteration is far more fun than pre df outlaw
royal hollow
Bro <@921608341048930304> I hate as 1pt fth when youre low cps and you press fth...
on the plus side, you have infinite control over spending DS
proven ocean
well honestly guy, like
if they will lower fth to like
2-3 cp
and
they cant leave it at that
cinder relic
I know I'm a "KIR" hater but shit like KiR is exactly what ion is talking about btw
cinder relic
Well yeah SS would have to go back up
RTB buffs would ahve to be better
You can't just compress the spec rn and change nothing else lol
haughty wigeon
Is there a single reason to play fate instead of trick in m+?
killing spree
proven ocean
yeah
proven ocean
true
torpid fiber
I think it's super fucked up that we just always take 7cp because we have so much cp gen that we need it
sullen narwhal
Oh yea, spree
raven condor
Depressive not as in depression
too late, depressed now. thanks devs
cinder relic
KiR conditions are total dogshit and the exact thing ion is talking about when he says "You need a weakaura to play the spec"
proven ocean
outlaw is the only spec u need weakauras
that i know of
like
without WAs
ur completely fucked
cinder relic
warrior for sure dues too
raven condor
need my trumpet to toot so i know when to rtb 
proven ocean
like imagine looking at ur buffs
to check ur rtb condition
to press kir
wait i dont know if rtb is up or not
haughty wigeon
arcane mage as well
proven ocean
haughty wigeon
so we might see another mage rework in the future
to make arcane not w/a
if they want to change all specs that need a w/a to play good
wintry solar
I can't stomach another mage rework
wintry solar
I miss 5cp outlaw a lot
sullen narwhal
Honestly, mage currently plays pretty great, i would not be happy with a rework that goes away from that
haughty wigeon
is gonna be unpopular with alot of people here as well
bright crane
theres 3 things guarunteed in
haughty wigeon
Honestly, mage currently plays pretty great, i would not be happy with a rework ...
arcane plays like a foot
cinder relic
People complain about literally everything I don't give a fuck
bright crane
death, taxes, and a mage rework
cinder relic
People complain when the spec gets fixed right now today
wintry solar
Honestly, mage currently plays pretty great, i would not be happy with a rework ...
People get upset with buffs, they'll be fine.
cinder relic
People in here are lost sometimes
proven ocean
People complain when the spec gets fixed right now today
complain if it isn't fixed, complain when its fixed and complain after and before all of that
cinder relic
literally
wintry solar
Honestly, mage currently plays pretty great, i would not be happy with a rework ...
I replied to the wrong thing, sorry
torpid fiber
My main worries with an outlaw rework would be that they'd remove the core fun parts of the spec but like
can't know that until it happens
torpid fiber
Yeah I wouldn't mind if that died
wintry solar
If that's what you're talking about
torpid fiber
I fell in love with outlaw in sl s3 kyrian dust period
I just need enough rng procs at a fast pace to be engaging, and also rtb providing gameplay variance
wintry solar
I don't think crackshot gameplay would survive an outlaw rework if they are aiming to fix the big issues because it benefits too much from them.
silk stirrup
complain if it isn't fixed, complain when its fixed and complain after and befor...
And more importantly, complain about the complaining
wintry solar
I don't think crackshot gameplay would survive an outlaw rework if they are aimi...
The issues that were pointed out earlier
wintry solar
If they actually rework outlaw, they can take away anything. Imo it's fair game.
A full fledged rework i mean
Not a tuning pass over every talent kind of rework
silk stirrup
I like current outlaw
gaunt phoenix
i feel like law will get tuned
pc does infinite dmg in normal keys
silk stirrup
Especially HO
torpid fiber
i feel like law will get tuned
pc does infinite dmg in normal keys
being good in weekly keys is a core part of the Outlaw spec identity
wintry solar
Literally the only identity it has left lol
silk stirrup
How much dps gain are the bug fixes more or less? In keys or raid
raven condor
https://tenor.com/view/monkeys-paw-paw-monkey-gif-17535679
20% aura nerf coming this Wednesday 
sullen narwhal
Top 30 specs
latent belfry
top 5 in my heart
wintry solar
I know I hate on this outlaw but it'll always be top 3
raven condor
Listen, fair and based because more tanks is good than less tanks
silk stirrup
I just hope HO is still better than KiR
raven condor
Afaik it's worse in consistent high target cap than kir, but still competitive? from what people have been found thus far?
wintry solar
Would you swap if it were worse?
latent belfry
kir is 0.3% better then OH for me....im sticking with OH
sullen narwhal
Kir is cool, but difficult to play optimally, and no ambush is just awful
gaunt phoenix
How much dps gain are the bug fixes more or less? In keys or raid
the deft/gm/fazed thing is under 5% combined
the BF thing is ???
BF trying to hit dead targets randomly costed us damage in bigger pulls sometimes but it also devalued precise cuts
idk, if you run pc in a typical key you feel significantly stronger
frail rover
!prekey
ornate heathBOT
Pre-key fuckery
RTB as you enter the dungeon to get 2 Supercharger stacks.- DO NOT RTB again inside the bubble as you will lose the supercharger stacks, similarly do not
AR early inside the bubble or you will lose the combo points. - After the bubble drops use RTB again (now at 4 stacks of Supercharger).
- Before entering the first pack
BF into 
Stealth. - Open on pack with AR into
BtE.
raven condor
the deft/gm/fazed thing is under 5% combined
the BF thing is ???
BF trying to ...
Should probably save this shit on a notepad or smth solo. This week's most asked question for a bit
haughty wigeon
Kir is cool, but difficult to play optimally, and no ambush is just awful
i believe thats the point
silk stirrup
Would you swap if it were worse?
Depends how much worse
haughty wigeon
having a stronger spec reward more vet players of the spec
wintry solar
Ain't even got tier
fathom bramble
I swear the gm thing is over 5% for ho depending on how you interacted with bf
gaunt phoenix
yes
wintry solar
Crazy
raven condor
"We're. So back" - Obamna
gaunt phoenix
you're right
fathom bramble
Some of my logs had basically no gm benefit
silk stirrup
the deft/gm/fazed thing is under 5% combined
the BF thing is ???
BF trying to ...
Yeah, I was running usually PC and CTO
wintry solar
Yeah I know I didn't
sullen narwhal
What's the min amount of CP you should have before using KS?
wintry solar
I never ran out of bf >.>
silk stirrup
What's the min amount of CP you should have before using KS?
7 IIRC
trail star
!up
ornate heathBOT
sullen narwhal
So basically always full? Even if you have to overcap like crazy?
fathom bramble
I wonder if being large in meaningless keys and still bad in push keys is enough to get a nerf though
fathom bramble
Well ‘bad’ compared to actually op specs
fathom bramble
Yeah who knows
silk stirrup
Guys, if Unholy, moonkin, mages and MM hunter are not being nerfed then we're fine
I wouldn't worry
fathom bramble
I prefer to see this as our late coup compensation
wintry solar
I like that
tight kernel
Class tuning Tuesday for sure
fathom bramble
A bug for a bug
sullen narwhal
Does each attack from coup have a chance to proc cto?
raven condor
7 IIRC
can anyone fact check this? I'm doubting myself, i thought it was just 6+ for any finisher outside of subterfuge but i am explicitly small brained
for ks minimum combos
wintry solar
6+ if you know you won't die
sullen narwhal
What about min cp for coup?
frail veldt
can anyone fact check this? I'm doubting myself, i thought it was just 6+ for an...
its just regular finish condition
silk stirrup
can anyone fact check this? I'm doubting myself, i thought it was just 6+ for an...
It's in the guide anyway
runic bough
My overall increase by 1mil guys this is so cool
raven condor
yeh ok ty
dawn talon
the deft/gm/fazed thing is under 5% combined
the BF thing is ???
BF trying to ...
ye i had a 5.5 overall priory earlier
was kinda pogging
runic bough
dmg meter in the dmg channel
frail veldt
ye i had a 5.5 overall priory earlier
you playing 1pt fth or HO SC?
raven condor
yeesss these are the posts I've been waiting for
frail veldt
Ive been messing with 1pt fth and it feels kinda eh
sullen narwhal
Does each attack from coup have a chance to proc cto?
frail veldt
honestly it feels less consistent than HO SC
runic bough
guys KS question
dawn talon
you playing 1pt fth or HO SC?
1pt fth
torpid fiber
imagine how fucked up we could have been in s3 df without the bf bug 💀
dawn talon
i think ho is better though
frail veldt
same tbh
dawn talon
i catch myself makikng mistakes on 1pt fth
that i would not be making playing ho
- the inbuilt variance is higher
frail veldt
yeah way higher as kir
dawn talon
i have more fun playing it by a pretty substantial margin tho
cinder haven
Cloak and ks
runic bough
tulip jewel
god damn it feels so good with the fixes, 5 dummies was 9.2M over 3 mins
runic bough
ill try it next flood thanks guys
THIS IS SO COOL
doing damage as outlaw omg
not fighting tank on dmg feel good to be normal again
raven condor
doing damage as outlaw omg
huge pogs in chat
runic bough
was carry
runic bough
raven condor
All y'all naysayer complainer whingers need to just get in and press buttons
runic bough
i kept saying we were held back
raven condor
Enjoy the fixes
fossil pagoda
so outlaw makes dmg again ?
fathom bramble
I don't think there are any meaningful throughput bugs left
raven condor
so outlaw makes dmg again ?
Don't tell anyone, we're still trash. Blizzard can't know
fossil pagoda
😄
raven condor
They'll fuck it up if they find out
fossil pagoda
yes i hate KS
raven condor
Fatebound meta inc
fathom bramble
just press KS on cd
if you die you die
*not recommended for anything higher than a 10
runic bough
I cant try KiR anymore I crafted all crit/vers nows
if i play Fate it will be HO and that is too far behind
raven condor
I'm struggling to drop below 21% haste wtf
runic bough
im at 13%
fossil pagoda
how much is fate behind trickster in keys ?
raven condor
Where is your haste fellow outlaw enjoyer, what have you done with it
raven condor
hm
raven condor
implying lfg inviters can read
vibes only
we're bad until archon/noxxic/iv/wowhead says we're not bad 
wintry solar
If I say hi and they don't say it back, I leave
raven condor
In what language though
wintry solar
I don't join Rag players
hidden bay
i cant play for next 2 weeks surely by the time i can we dont get nerfed 
runic bough
Flood fish mini boss, you can cloak and run thru all the bubbles i jsut tested it.
hidden bay
guys pls sandbag the spec a bit, cant let everyone know outlaw is actually good after bugfixes
runic bough
hidden bay
but hey this doesnt affect raid pretty much so maybe safe?
gaunt phoenix
put this for now
frank finch
trim vigil
Wake up and see the bugs fixed
wintry solar
It's informative to people who didn't know
tulip jewel
*not recommended for anything higher than a 10
nah we have cloak for a reason xd
cloak is the 2 min cheat for spree
sullen narwhal
What was the bug with deft?
gaunt phoenix
essentially the 100% bonus dmg didnt work
gaunt phoenix
cause of deft you refreshed bf a lot anyway
sullen narwhal
I see
gaunt phoenix
ho without deft might have gone long periods with gm not working on the active bf
or the opposite tbf where you snapped GM into BF for the entire key by accident
but gm not working would have been more common
fathom bramble
for me my normal key opener that was to always BF before RTB at the start of a key
and it kind of doomed me
gaunt phoenix
ye
fathom bramble
if your habit is to do that the other way then you could snapshot a juiced BF instead
errant terrace
so do we take deft for HO trickster builds in m+?
like getting rid of the verse or 2nd fan node?
gaunt phoenix
nah
errant terrace
tyty
gaunt phoenix
you could it's not far behind
and would improve some low end variance
but still an expected loss
trim vigil
So now BF doesn't keep the GM buff even if it's no longer up?
trim vigil
Time to delete the wa then
bronze bough
Outlaw is good now or?
bronze bough
That’s all I need 😎
rotund zodiac
yo what build should I use now? kir 2fth (aoe) is ahead in st but lose to kir 1fth (aoe) and HO SC in dslice
tulip jewel
can't wait for another nerf
errant terrace
o/ flushies!
rotund zodiac
o/ flushies!
hii
tulip jewel
yo what build should I use now? kir 2fth (aoe) is ahead in st but lose to kir 1...
PC doesn't get anywhere near as much value in sims as it does in actual gameplay
1fth is just better in more scenarios
at least in high keys where pack cleanup is longer
night dragon
What talents we run now that the fix is out?
reef forge
1 point on fth and PC back to being out build?
tulip jewel
always was xd
gaunt phoenix
1fth probably wins overall but its hard
like actually
not sure i can play 1fth and still focus on kicks and shit
tulip jewel
only one way to improve!
gaunt phoenix
tru
tulip jewel
i believe in you :3
errant field
man dmg on Rik feels good
rotund zodiac
back to KIR gamer
tulip jewel
honestly solo, i just find having 1 person in the group insta kicking always has a place
i dont want to be relied on to stop late in casts since might be in spree etc
i'll just mindlessly stop everything to reduce overall stops everyone else have to do
people know if it's bast 50% it's not on me haha
gaunt phoenix
yea p much
rotund zodiac
I always insta kick out of habit because I don't have time to precess for late kick
tulip jewel
most the time i'm just trying to get kick on cd before spree
rotund zodiac
I hate it when I have to spend like 2-3 gcds to cheap shot during subterfuge to keep everyone alive
tulip jewel
rofl
100%
the amount of high keys i just spam cheaps to not wipe
they're lucky dying is a dps loss so I'll do it
casts during priory paladins
free samples in cinderbrew gigapulls are one of the big killers
worldly palm
Do any of the mods here offer coaching, or know anyone who does?
tulip jewel
ye ask joe
haughty wigeon
Do any of the mods here offer coaching, or know anyone who does?
guy does
bright crane
Could be the move
upbeat tundra
LOL
frail veldt
Do any of the mods here offer coaching, or know anyone who does?
Yeah foreverguy does
tulip jewel
rofl
frail veldt
empty elbow
hidden bay
thats so fucking based man holy shit
tulip jewel
would've hated to see what the note would've been when he was hitting corpses
normal aurora
Hey, so i know they said they fixed blade flurry.. but i'm still seeing an issue with multiple targets up + pile of dead boddies and i'm only hitting 0-2 additional targets. Anyone else still noticing this?
actually.. i think it might be related to undamaged targets? Kind of strange
frail veldt
We were only able to tell before by thoroughly reviewing logs
trail star
Hey, so i know they said they fixed blade flurry.. but i'm still seeing an issue...
Do you have video/logs?
frail veldt
so if you think its still happening youll need to check logs
normal aurora
no, just doing some primitive testing
wintry solar
Why?
runic bough
casting mobs wiping pugs
no interupt order
priory is officially the caster key this season
need a dh for mass interupts
wintry solar
Just use your cheap shot
tulip jewel
expensive shot
runic bough
i was thinking that
tulip jewel
dying is a dps loss
nova basin
there are 4 other people in the dungeon, if you are using everything and things still going wrong i would almost guarentee its a them issue not you
tulip jewel
at least its not us that'll die
nova basin
people too keen with soaks usually, wait for the big aoe then do soaks after it.
tulip jewel
xd
runic bough
everything else ez
oh also one time i soaked trying to hook behind the soak
and it knocked me back so i hooked again
nova basin
dont KS near it.. honestly.. dont
runic bough
hahahah
ks killed me on first boss since the red line was on me and ks brought me back right as he casted it.
no time to hook out
nova basin
i wish there was a way to turn off the camera moving with you in KS so you can almost see where you were when you started it
nova basin
why dont we play an easier spec?
nova basin
when 80% of my deaths could of been avioided by not being in an RNG teleport i agree
runic bough
well yes
trail star
i wish there was a way to turn off the camera moving with you in KS so you can a...
you could place a marker in @player
with a macro
runic bough
we are being trolled right now by ks.
nova basin
you could place a marker in @player
its more like you press it, and traps go down or something and you hit all of them and come out with a 500% health dot
rotund zodiac
is it normal to proc less coup than ho in aoe as kir?
runic bough
does anyone else have dry energy sometimes?
rotund zodiac
I found myself hitting BF and not using unseen blades most of the time
tulip jewel
only wet energy here
runic bough
like
nova basin
depends on buffs, i liek to think of mine as moist
tulip jewel
yeah just don't roll badly multiple times in a row 
nova basin
more haste helps but only need hastre for KiR
runic bough
if your focusing on interupting your gonna get dry eventually
mainly priory
ruined my vibe fr fr
ive started targeting priests
first
then i switch to other mobs
rotund zodiac
first pull priory I'm trying to kill all footmen first
those defend ability are annoying af
tulip jewel
dwarf traps ezpz
dawn talon
kill the knight then kill the elite
tulip jewel
blizz should use the oil puddle from vexie mechanic in more places
dawn talon
focus one mob and if other kicks go out gg
tulip jewel
so we can drift around mechanics
nova basin
That shoot ability used to hit soooo hard
runic bough
it still hits hard
dawn talon
hit a button if you're double targeted
if it's just one tell your healer to heal your guy
runic bough
how do u type when our apm is taking all our fingers?
nova basin
Macro ‘heal me ****’
dawn talon
if you're alive to hit buttons they don't need to do anything
runic bough
dawn talon
they've already got it
nova basin
Our pre-made has custom wa and macros, so if I press my macro to say cocoon to my healer it pops up on his screen with the icon and my name.
Pre-made things.
fathom bramble
casually taking 100m extra damage every top
oh I was scrolled up to a KS discussion
oh well
fiery timber
nova basin
I can’t keep up with this chat
raven condor
oh I was scrolled up to a KS discussion
always relevant discussion
Every pinned message should have "Ks is still dogshit" on it
tulip jewel
oh I was scrolled up to a KS discussion
how awkward
tulip jewel
Every pinned message should have "Ks is still dogshit" on it
guys please be respectful to the dev that designed killing spree
raven condor
love the spell, hate the implementation
it's actually the concept of "call to the void" in a button
tulip jewel
i aint gonna lie i spent like 4h on making a weakaura that just lights up when it's not safe to spree with boss timer spell CDs etc
haven't died in like 5 weeks to spree
trail star
Ks is good but we need immunity
trail star
i aint gonna lie i spent like 4h on making a weakaura that just lights up when i...
Thats simply incompatible with outlaws gameplay style: fast paced
tulip jewel
floor paced
raven condor
i aint gonna lie i spent like 4h on making a weakaura that just lights up when i...
even the best laid plans fall to a supercharged, 8cp ks where a swirlie lands under your starting point and ends the femptosecond you land.
tulip jewel
that's why i have spell cd <3s
fluid meadow
no, ks is bad at overall, shit design, i like to see when 20 mob and my in range target counter drop to 2-3 during ks when porting to side mob
tulip jewel
don't think anyone's gonna argue
trail star
I mean i like the fact that we have an extra finisher besides bte and dispatch and the interactions with trickster but you gotta make it safe to useee
raven condor
It's even more insulting that it's SO integral to trickster
fathom bramble
always relevant discussion
true
every part of KS except the animation is kind of a problem
variable length gcd, bugged with spellqueue, teleports my character, the stagger doesn't even work sometimes
raven condor
(i mean even the animation could be a little tighter on your target)
fathom bramble
yeah I could see that a bit
but in general our animations never really look like they are making contact anyway so idk
maybe it doesn't matter
raven condor
Like i am FEAR that i'm gonna slap a nearby mob if there's a pack nearby
fathom bramble
I think when you kind of peel back all the layers basically the only good part of KS is that it is an extra long CD finisher that we track
which makes it fun to interact with
fathom bramble
Like i am FEAR that i'm gonna slap a nearby mob if there's a pack nearby
the animation itself won't pull anything though it's just based on where you are physically teleporting to
the animation just looks spooky since your kind of all over the place
trail star
KS damage should be softcapped, and with some kind of immunity (cloak?)
raven condor
or tug around the other dps with a leash on the uhh, 3rd fg boss
fathom bramble
I feel like there's a lot of ways to make the stagger feel better
but it's kind of a bandaid to a bad skill anyway
stagger could be KS duration+1 seconds
raven condor
The stagger is too short+anaemic to be useful. It should be a long form dot with a possibility to reapply on next ks??
fathom bramble
it could have some kind of mitigation beyond just staggering 100% of damage
especially in cases where the stagger is an insane amount of damage
raven condor
yeah
trail star
I mean, its kind of crazy that all we are asking is to fix a core spell SO WE DO NOT DIE.
fathom bramble
receiving overhealing could remove part of the remaining stagger
raven condor
fr
fathom bramble
but again it's all just a bandaid to a skill that has got to go
trail star
Like its so basic.
fathom bramble
if the stagger/damage reduction is too strong you get into weird abuse cases
and even if it's infinitely strong(damage and CC immunity) you still have situations where you wipe the raid by pressing it
torpid fiber
sorry in the Outlaw rework they're going to make killing spree out main builder
trail star
and even if it's infinitely strong(damage and CC immunity) you still have situat...
Well i am fine with that
fathom bramble
it would certainly make the skill more useable
but I'm scared of the issues that a full immunity on a 10% uptime would have
maybe it would end up being nothing though it's hard to say
torpid fiber
If it has damage+cc immunity that also means there's now short ass cd immunity in the game which cannot be healthy
fathom bramble
well you could save KS for every raid damage event and just be invincible is a potential problem
more of a problem for not trickster builds weirdly enough
since you could take it at a small damage loss on fatebound to use specifically for the immunity
trail star
Well you could make it to save you once or twice of massive damage and get a debuff
Similar to cheath death
fathom bramble
yeah I was thinking about something like that
"If the damage staggered would exceed twice your maximum life then it is reduced to that amount. This effect can only occur once every x minutes"
fathom bramble
staggering out twice your max life is probably still a death sentence though so idk
"If the damage staggered would exceed your maximum life then it is reduced to that amount. This effect goes on up to a 6 minute cooldown depending on the amount of stagger reduced"
1 second per 1% life cleared
torpid fiber
me when my ks immunity lineup stops working at the next key level
fathom bramble
just get more vers and it'll line up again
trail star
You could put a really long cd to protect it from raid abuse and include it in restless blades (for m+)
In the debuff I mean
Like
15 mins
fathom bramble
it's fun to think about, but again it's bandaids on a gunshot wound
trail star
Yeah indeed
fathom bramble
raid abuse is also weird since they are tending towards not really have mechanics you could reliably KS soak with
everything is ground targetted and/or requires a certain number of people in it anyway
like maybe the total immunity never actually has an abuse case
it's just a lot of damage mitigation
KS making you immune to CC in pve like it use to would be a nice bandaid if we could get it though
and it I think is realistically not hard to implement
at least until a real KS rework hits
verbal fjord
How much dmg did we get now that the bugs are fixxed?
fathom bramble
there's some info in the pins
lusty sparrow
empty elbow
i aint gonna lie i spent like 4h on making a weakaura that just lights up when i...
!! Would you be willing to share this weakaura?
silk stirrup
I gained an extra 10m overall
flat latch
god bless
tender wedge
bug fixes got me invited
wicked acorn
flat latch
its true
vivid vessel
random stirrup
my outlaw alt on the comeup zac
silk stirrup
Sacre Bleu
random stirrup
my raid is not gonna know what hit them (it's me dying to ks)
jolly geyser
Lets see that 1 pull dmg zac
silk stirrup
Now they just need to remove KiR and life would be perfect as outlaw
turbid ledge
!prekey
ornate heathBOT
Pre-key fuckery
- RTB as you enter the dungeon to get 2 Supercharger stacks.
- DO NOT RTB again inside the bubble as you will lose the supercharger stacks, similarly do not AR early inside the bubble or you will lose the combo points.
- After the bubble drops use RTB again (now at 4 stacks of Supercharger).
- Before entering the first pack BF into Stealth.
- Open on pack with AR into BtE.
winged inlet
HO is good again? or kir?
jolly geyser
Yes
silk stirrup
Both
hidden bay
X
thoughts?
for starters i doubt blizz knows what the optimal rotation is but the idea seems good. a lot of ppl in your weekly keys will see dps gains from this
also we have a new option to flame ppl when they do shit dmg just tell them to use the 1 button auto rotation
i love how their example is sin rogue, a spec literally nobody needs rotation helper to play xd
cinder haven
It’s not gonna be optimal rotation that’s for sure
Only reasonable argument for doing this is accessibility
fathom bramble
I feel like calling it small is a bit of an understatement
your by default doing 20% less damage from the getgo
before we even consider how suboptimal the rotation will end up being
turbid ledge
Not for it, but I am for blizzard making classes more like shaman UI that imo is great at letting me know when you press stuff
hidden bay
assuming rotation is actually optimal 20% less is a huge dmg improvement to a lot of ppl
fathom bramble
assuming rotation is actually optimal 20% less is a huge dmg improvement to a lo...
this is probably true
oh god you could actually play 2 characters at once with this
I didn't even think of that
turbid ledge
It's great for people with disabilities however
cinder haven
Or 10
hidden bay
like how often you do a weekly and someone literally does half your dps being same geared
or close gear
cinder haven
It's great for people with disabilities however
Yeah this is the only argument that makes sense to me
fathom bramble
I think 20% isn't enough of a penalty if it really ends up being a near perfect rotation executed a bit slower
cinder haven
But it will also lead to more botting
hidden bay
also i heard the rotation is adjustable?
so maybe they make some kid of import
and then you can actually have optimal rotation
fathom bramble
let you code the entire rotation in lua
cinder haven
If you can use that import also to just make skills glow its kinda cool i guess
jolly geyser
I remember hunter having cast sequence macro for 1 lk kill
fathom bramble
if we can get a boss ability timeline and then all other boss addons just being gone that's a really cool ideal future
cinder haven
I worry if they kill weakauras though
fathom bramble
assumign we actually get boss mechanics tuned around this
turbid ledge
Curious to see how it would work with a DOT spec or those specs where people macro a lot
hidden bay
I worry if they kill weakauras though
i think we will be in a situation where its shit for a while and then they are forced to make it good which is acceptable
cinder haven
I’m sure the blizz version won’t be as customisable
fathom bramble
they need a very robust and customizable ui in order to delete WAs
hidden bay
in my mind
fathom bramble
they could prevent WAs from reading boss events though
tulip jewel
too many people would quit if they did remove weakauras
leaden folio
thing is
fathom bramble
and that kills like 90% of the ones that I think players dislike
hidden bay
they will remove weakauras
leaden folio
blizzard are copy weakaura/addon and delete it
but
they will never
invent something
if they gate creating content from community
its a loss
cinder haven
They won’t delete wa any time soon at least
cinder haven
Replacing details should be easy enough though
hidden bay
Not make bosses that require wa
the logic is that they make those because was exist
if was dont exist they dont make those bosses
haughty wigeon
cinder haven
The cd manager doesn’t fill me with hope for a wa replacement
leaden folio
Replacing details should be easy enough though
i have no idea, but I prefer blizzard working on boss/rogue that working copypasta addon from community
hidden bay
granted the private auras they did
for some boss mechanics
were mechanics that actually required was to solve
which was stupid af
tulip jewel
ye basically
haughty wigeon
The cd manager doesn’t fill me with hope for a wa replacement
Yep
hidden bay
like go try do echo of neltharion pre 27 nerfs and position yourself in 3 seconds without wa
haughty wigeon
They need
Audio to say when thing is off cd too
If they really want to do accessibility things
vivid vessel
were mechanics that actually required was to solve
Tbf they kinda backtracked that almost instantly
cinder haven
They need nearly the same level of customisation as wa
vivid vessel
They stopped using private aura for those
cinder haven
More importantly, are we no longer trolling by playing outlaw on big pulls?
hidden bay
They need nearly the same level of customisation as wa
or making the game more simple
cinder haven
Or just less shit
hidden bay
id rather simpler game with no was than this
cinder haven
It’s just because we like to figure out 0.2% minmaxes
vivid vessel
Tbf as long as I can put a proc sound on fth
I could play outlaw without weak auras just fine
my wa pack is legit just the cd manager but pretty
well and the rtb stuffs or whatver but eh
hidden bay
and the UB
quiet root
yeah i'd figure the RTB stuff is the important part
hidden bay
well rtb is easy to fix
hidden bay
hopefully they will
viscid forge
!fuu
ornate heathBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
hidden bay
make kir cd lower but rolling after kir rerolls everything
make supercharger proc from vanish
quiet root
supercharger proccing from rtb sucks
quiet root
i think it's because they had to pick the one every outlaw uses as part of the rotation
spiral zephyr
Kappa
vivid vessel
not for assa
quiet root
assa gets 1 shiv base right
hidden bay
well still
zealous plinth
!wa
ornate heathBOT
Class packs:
Guy's - Afenar's Edit 
Luxthos Edit
Zac's Group 
Devlin
Utilities:
Combo Point Standalone
Last GCD in Crackshot window / Subterfuge timer- Ace refund sound trigger
- RtB buffs tracker (shows normal, CTO, and KIR'd buffs)
Unseen Blade tracker
Fun:
Ace max combo counter and Ace current combo counter
KS Ticking damage taken
hidden bay
so you dont have to play crackshot to use vanish for sc
quiet root
that's fair enough, you do get cdr regardless
but if we weren't using crackshot, vanish would be a minmax to get 1 more ambush in, right?
fathom bramble
ambush is weaker than SS without supporting talents
you would just vanish to trigger other things and not even press ambush
quiet root
oh yeah that makes sense considering how you play kir
so yeah i guess they did have to put it on rtb, however cringe that may be
wintry solar
Who's pressing vanish as much as rtb?
quiet root
i think they wanted it on an ability you'd use regardless of talent choices
quiet root
not something you'd add to your rotation just to trigger sc with
vivid vessel
its not like it didnt change our rtb prio aswell
we kinda added rtb on cd
cause of sc
so
fathom bramble
it would be technically weaker on vanish or whatever, but I don't think that's a design problem that can't be fixed with tuning
vivid vessel
back when we didnt have sc we would rtb once evrey 10 min with loaded
and never press again
quiet root
but don't get me wrong, i'm more just playing devils advocate here, trying to figure out blizzards logic
wintry solar
Yeah idk I don't really see the appeal with SC on vanish
fathom bramble
the main logic is just that RTB is our only 30-45 second CD
and that was the target for SC
it should have been on vanish and retuned appropriately
vivid vessel
we vanish as often as we rtb kinda
dont even think you would have needed tuning
well i ugess with tier set rtb became weird
fathom bramble
yeah idk with tierset
vivid vessel
but thats anomaly tbf
wintry solar
You'd also ignore it
There are no gameplay implications to it on vanish
I personally like to time my rerolls
quiet root
considering it's on symbols for sub, that wouldn't be a reason for blizzard not to make the change i think
personally i could do without having to time my rolls in the way we are now
wintry solar
But that's sub
upbeat tundra
guys today was insane
we're gonna be riding this high till atleast next expac
ion literally remembered we exist
on VIDEO
AND we had MULTIPLE bug fixes
wintry solar
Probably been giving him a headache lol
upbeat tundra
its legit downhill from here
and the bug fixes increased our dps significantly
i even got invited to 2 keys today
wintry solar
Outlaw
upbeat tundra
he mentioned outlaw specifically on video
quiet root
yep, literal outlaw mention
hidden bay
okokok
upbeat tundra
it was real
hidden bay
thats good
wintry solar
He said it was too much essentially
upbeat tundra
he basically said "lol how does anyone play this shit without weakauras"
quiet root
basically saying there's no way to play outlaw optimally without WAs xd
hidden bay
he basically said "lol how does anyone play this shit without weakauras"
they dont
its impossible
hidden bay
tbf nobody plays outlaw period xd
upbeat tundra
real
hidden bay
im psure sin is easier than ret and bm combined
i dont think theres a simpler spec than sin rn
quiet root
is sin really that easy?
sweet yoke
do i drop ghostly or 1 rank count for precise in the ho m+ build now?
hidden bay
it is
upbeat tundra
u gotta kinda keep track of ur dots and shit but also u can also just not and do good damage
hidden bay
st specifically
wintry solar
do i drop ghostly or 1 rank count for precise in the ho m+ build now?
CtO, Ace, or the 3rd thing
Icr
hidden bay
aoe is not that easy
upbeat tundra
aoe is just weird and cumbersome
hidden bay
yes
twilit rivet
Deft maneuver for HO?
wintry solar
Nah
twilit rivet
aight
wintry solar
I mean you could probably take it now if you like it, there's not a lot of value in it
I run it for blp
Because I hate this shitty fucking gameplay
Almost lost my cool
still matrix
I can put "Bug Fixed, Outlaw Gods Now" in my note and see if i get invs
haughty wigeon
yea but nobody plays any spec without weakauras
We use weakauras
For ret
Hammer of light tracker and expurg tracker
Csaa auto tracker
And holy power tracker for dr
long barn
upbeat tundra
its kinda crazy im not ending big pulls doing tank damage
viscid forge
!fuu
ornate heathBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
empty elbow
More importantly, are we no longer trolling by playing outlaw on big pulls?
This was from a 15 DFC we're able to keep up just fine, plus having 100% damage uptime helps with a lot of pulls where everyone is kinda holding until the next pack
raven condor
This was from a 15 DFC we're able to keep up just fine, plus having 100% damage ...
That's kinda outlaws niche - neverdowntime
hollow temple
!fuu
ornate heathBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
empty elbow
That's kinda outlaws niche - neverdowntime
oh yeah for sure, just reassuring our friend who asked if we were trolling by playing outlaw
timid shoal
bless this community for highlighting the rogue bugs
still matrix
i did about 13mil first pull cinder
cinder haven
Uhdk did 20m ofc
still matrix
with mythic spare keys + whistle procs etc..
torpid fiber
honestly it sounds like this bugfix was effectively a huge buff in practice
torpid fiber
fair enough
still matrix
but goood
wintry solar
Huge from where we were previously
raven condor
how is "our only aoe now correctly hits targets and benefits from hero talents" not huge wat
trail star
It is concerning that the bug went undetected for such a long time, as the class was balanced with that bug present.
jolly geyser
mop was it?
trail star
No idea since when
I wonder if Blizzard's metrics didn't show any inconsistencies in the damage data.
tacit cairn
this priority still using?
trail star
this priority still using?
Looks good.
dusty blaze
Who discovered the bug in the first place?
trail star
But remember to check the recent deft changes
trail star
Who discovered the bug in the first place?
It was a rumour since I can't remember
I am not sure who confirmed it though
agile orchid
so guys what is the verdict, PC or no PC?
dusty blaze
Aye but someone musta got the ball rolling?
cinder haven
We were looking through logs a lot for this bug back in df
jolly geyser
cinder haven
But since it happens only when mobs start dying
trail star
Was that flag the culprit?
cinder haven
I think we looked too early in the logs
jolly geyser
Was that flag the culprit?
no idea,wasnt here to read
cinder haven
But now that we know what to look for we could confirm it in really old logs too
trail star
Realz said that regarding the date when the flag was added.
dusty blaze
Well ...from my heart....i wanna thank all involved in these fixes....outlaw is a way of life for me....much thx
raven condor
i think your spacebar is broken mate
trail star
We should also thank realz for the fast fix.
torpid fiber
i think your spacebar is broken mate
nah if i've learnt anything about how to correctly use em dashes this is probably the correct syntax for ellipses as well because the rules are stupid
torpid fiber
ok i can't spell
shush
anyways i googled it and you're not allowed to not put spaces on either end of ellipses
i hate style rules so much
torpid fiber
lmao
trail star
I was like, what did i miss
trail star
yeah
torpid fiber
putting ovals in your sentences would be hype as fuck
trail star
xD
covert kestrel
so outlaw is just fucked
Yeah but we're also so back
cinder haven
royal crane
Yeah but we're also so back
are we?
vivid vessel
its not even the highest dps i have done in this key
migth be the highest without raid buffs tho ?
cinder haven
First pull looked ok
cinder haven
It was the one you just ran i think
still matrix
insane dam
cinder haven
The other two dps should have done a lot more
hollow temple
uhdk probably giga unlucky procs
hollow temple
but hunter naturally has way mroe dps
hollow temple
too less >:)
vivid vessel
people are legit just bad at doing damage
hollow temple
i mean its TOMELVIS
royal crane
people are legit just bad at doing damage
I know I am
cinder haven
Both dk and hunter died a lot
hollow temple
but since bugs got fixed i laugh at meta comp
vivid vessel
2 deaths each
cinder haven
But still, we kinda back
hollow temple
always below me xD
royal crane
did the bug fixes make us way better?
hollow temple
now people slowly realize "oh outlaw is actually blasting..hmm"
vivid vessel
did the bug fixes make us way better?
idk about way better
leaden folio
did the bug fixes make us way better?
yes
reef forge
How is outlaw feeling? You hitting 15m in first pull Zac?