you dont have hands as part of your tier?
#outlaw
gaunt phoenix
perhaps they just meant to type 'wasn't'
vivid vessel
can wait a few months
sullen wyvern
oh ok
vivid vessel
\
jolly geyser
I got crafted legs,seen like 3 leg drops
magic shuttle
perhaps they just meant to type 'wasn't'
No they were suprised by hearing that ks is meta
gaunt phoenix
damn how out of the loop can you be
magic shuttle
Something something guides suggested fatebound build
sullen wyvern
why house of card though
vivid vessel
its 768
gaunt phoenix
hoc is fine in aoe
gaunt phoenix
for kir
vivid vessel
im a kir one trick you see
glass mortar
deft makes mastery a bit stronger in aoe, and HoC has a very high budget for a stat trinket
one of the few trinkets with high budgets this season
sullen wyvern
Do you play the main gauche talent? 5% extr achance while BF or something like that
vivid vessel
no
gaunt phoenix
naw
glass mortar
no its entirely deft
gaunt phoenix
Deft maneuvers procs mastery a bit more than without it
glass mortar
deft is 100% of the reason mastery can gain value in aoe
sullen wyvern
I see
jolly geyser
I got house and jastor on my ret pala back to back,feels good
gaunt phoenix
pink rogue
jolly geyser
what you making
gaunt phoenix
dinar
jolly geyser
sullen wyvern
basically soup for the next 5 days
jolly geyser
my kinda cooking outside work
sullen wyvern
been on a diet for the past 10 months to lose weight and not be a fatass anymore
stoic flicker
do you guys take dancing steel and deft maneuvers for fights like vexie and cauldron or is there not enough consistent cleave for it to be worth it?
glass mortar
those talents r useless on cauldron not sure y ud want them there
i do play aoe build on vexie with no PC
its barely behind in ST and if ur lucky u can get 6 targets in range
gaunt phoenix
think they mean precise cuts not deft
cauldron no, vexie depends on your comp a bit ig
glass mortar
im gunna be honest ur build doesnt matter on vexie
gaunt phoenix
well ye
glass mortar
all that matters is having a 5 buff during the damage amp
if u dont roll that ur not gunna look very good
thats about it
gunna matter 100% more then aoe vs ST build on that particular fight
gaunt phoenix
i wonder if we should aggressively roll for 5, oh wait
stoic flicker
think they mean precise cuts not deft
I didn't, just have the wowhead descriptions of cleave vs st as my base knowledge, thanks for attempting to make me look less dumb though lol
glass mortar
xd
stoic flicker
Appreciate the input guys thanks
gaunt phoenix
ohh i see
yea deft maneuvers will hardly ever be used in raid its only for the kir build and also only for heavy aoe
stoic flicker
Do I not just want to go with KiR in all of the raid fights?
glass mortar
not generally no
on herioc HO trickster is played on pretty much every fight
on mythic its played on everything up to sprocket
you can to be clear, its just much harder to prog with
frail veldt
I like having 5 buffs but I hate having to spam reroll for it
stoic flicker
Oh ok, I only have watched one pov so far, it was on rik reverb and they were running KiR but that guys group is probably much easier to work with than the average prog
vivid vessel
send me a clip
vivid vessel
ok
fluid iron
you can prog sprocket as trickster:?
just do Z and never press KS
raven condor
I like having 5 buffs but I hate having to spam reroll for it
but the spec thematic, we're interacting with our spec spell all the time it's SO good 😂
frail veldt
except for the 48 seconds where we dont touch rtb after 5 rolling haha
raven condor
Yeah and lose out on supercharger for that time lmao
gaunt phoenix
Do I not just want to go with KiR in all of the raid fights?
well we have HO Trickster vs KIR Fatebound
on pure single target they are close, can depend on gear but only like Sprocket is pure st
HO Trickster is the standard build, and Trickster heavily takes over any time blade flurry damage is involved
but trickster does use killing spree and at some point killing spree is questionable on some fights
frail veldt
sprocket is reaaaally hard to press KS on
gaunt phoenix
M sprocket of course, heroic is w.e
glass mortar
if u wanna wipe the group sure
maybe u could get lucky once or twice
and not wipe the raid
gaunt phoenix
i believe wowhead talks about HO Fatebound which is viable to a lesser extent, doesnt bother with describing KIR cause its hard
vivid vessel
Solo
gaunt phoenix
?!?@#>
vivid vessel
You know what I don't like about trickster
You can't hold vanihs anymore
It makes the spec super super rng
On fights with add pops
Idk how to handle it honestly
Like on oab
You do so much more damage when cds lines up
As fateboudn you could hold vanish freely
gaunt phoenix
i getcha
vivid vessel
Here idk
i think outlaw is way healthier when it can hold vanish
but i do prefer trickster
its fun
cinder relic
i believe wowhead talks about HO Fatebound which is viable to a lesser extent, d...
What specifically isn't explained?
vivid vessel
so idk
gaunt phoenix
What specifically isn't explained?
nvm you have kir stuffs
i thought this person was confused about ho fatebound
cinder relic
The guide is like, "missing" some of the more niche stuff in the discord because at a certain point it's like, impossible to articulate properly
vivid vessel
its fine honestly
the wowhead guide is good nowadays
unfortunate its hosted on wowhead tho
vivid vessel
hey man
you gotta do what you gotta do
for these crumbles of dps
you know
its the outlaw life
cinder relic
I mean I get it
But it's more like, theres only so much you can articulate in a guide vs words
vivid vessel
ye
harsh forge
i mean that is kind of intuitive you don’t want to hold coup for too long or waste escalating blades if you can help it
vivid vessel
i mean
once you understand outlaw
honestly
its all feels
most rules we have make sense
i love outlaw
but i hate outlaw ! ! !
harsh forge
bandwagoners wouldn’t understand it’s not like sin or sub
wintry solar
Hate subterfuge, love vanish. Simple as.
fluid iron
how abouyt youstop being a hater
nah im good
vivid vessel
guys
lil bitch playing the wrong spec
and thats priory
honestyly not even that bad of an outlaw key
if you ignore the fact you wipe on first pull cause you play with an outlaw rogue
wintry solar
But that means you're playing outlaw
vivid vessel
?
glass mortar
?????
glass mortar
stop
vivid vessel
i dont think you can even do that
vivid vessel
he is capping lol
glass mortar
LMAO
glass mortar
nice b8
proven ocean
next week 673 cloak
proven ocean
678 cloak*
vivid vessel
i see
glass mortar
fuck i gotta grind some delve keys b4 raid
glass mortar
and watch the one arm video
glass mortar
yup
vivid vessel
not even 4k6
proven ocean
WDYM YUP
vivid vessel
3k6
proven ocean
?????????????????
vivid vessel
ok
proven ocean
i buy avoidance boots+neck
vivid vessel
!
proven ocean
then i become
vivid vessel
ok !
proven ocean
10% avoidance on ass
vivid vessel
! ko
proven ocean
OMG ?!
proven ocean
bis list of what
desert tendon
of dn
proven ocean
wtf is dn
cinder relic
darkest night
desert tendon
could also be yea
vivid vessel
analog fog
lil bitch playing the wrong spec
what the
vivid vessel
sonic gust
you almost made him smile on stream
desert tendon
ass ass
vivid vessel
proven ocean
no cappi
desert tendon
no cappi rossi
desert tendon
who s ross?
proven ocean
ac
desert tendon
i only know zerocool
proven ocean
ui9orjkewmldfs;bgstp;aiogtwlk.e?<asmdkzvB FHAMETRDF[OP;LJGMKKD,
THATS
A
BIG
RING
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
desert tendon
that s big
proven ocean
NOT BAD CUH NOT BAD
desert tendon
for ass
vivid vessel
desert tendon
no cap
vivid vessel
imagine if that shit was with haste tho
proven ocean
if it was an enchant u wont change it from crit to haste anyway
you'll say its neutral as usual
proven ocean
sim brain no cap
ngl zac
im proud of you
you used to be a pure sim brain in DF
now u changed
vivid vessel
proven ocean
it was like
talking to a human robot
that thinks the entire game is on raidbots
and whatever happens there
is 100% accurate
gray crystal
lil bitch playing the wrong spec
Only I can call him lil bitch, plz refrain.
vivid vessel
ye thats not true tho
fathom bramble
open trade?
vivid vessel
most theorycrafters are like that still
i have always based everything i do
from ingame
testing
proven ocean
well
vivid vessel
and feelycraft
proven ocean
in DF u were cooked
vivid vessel
since i started the gtame
proven ocean
now ur good
vivid vessel
you were cooked
sonic gust
sim tells me to have 16% haste, but my overalls are higher with 23%
vivid vessel
dont call me cooked when you are the master cooketier dude
sonic gust
raidbots broken
proven ocean
u are cook puree
vivid vessel
lok
proven ocean
cooked de veau
proven ocean
you seen on what i pinged you
?? where is my pinged clips
fathom bramble
I was repairing a sprinkler so didn't really respond or look earlier
proven ocean
???!!!!
vivid vessel
from what i understand you still tps to the back
vivid vessel
so in theory
fathom bramble
seems consistent with how he behaves on heroic
vivid vessel
you can ask your tank to angle the boss
to never be in the orbs
and the orbs arent an issue
and then the rest of the mechanics arent reallty an issue with ks
nothing can kill you really
fathom bramble
could also cloak and soak them after the bomb is done
vivid vessel
Well
It's bad when you take them
The bomb need to eat them
To charge it
The bomber guy
Idk the timings tho
Not all of them are important
Not sure exactly how it works
Also they are way too often for you to just cloak
fathom bramble
bomb eats 4 of the 8 right
vivid vessel
Something like that
gaunt phoenix
stays like what
loud hazel
helo
proven ocean
E O Ssa sllx kKS _____ Ie OE kfdKS _____ CR ____erewkofoewKS____CR_sdkoasdkapowKS____CR
wait that didnt go as planned
but
glass mortar
.....
vivid vessel
I see
gaunt phoenix
LOOL
loud hazel
what hero talent is better for the tier?, fatebound or trickster?
vivid vessel
Make sense
glass mortar
trickster anywhere theres cleave and u can legaly play kspree
proven ocean
so it was like
glass mortar
either on ST
glass mortar
but u need to play KiR to play fatebound and have it be equal on ST
gaunt phoenix
what hero talent is better for the tier?, fatebound or trickster?
trickster as soon as blade flurry damage is involved
proven ocean
after pressing it
loud hazel
got it
bright crane
Which hero talent got the most SWAG tho??
loud hazel
Which hero talent got the most SWAG tho??
prob fatebound bc turns your char into a slot machine, i don't know
🪙 🪙 🪙 🪙
loud hazel
now that's mentioned, what about THAT talent node of fatebound that affects cold blood for the coins?
why it's so useless?
glass mortar
because cold blood is an extremely worthless talent making it super expensive to take
loud hazel
oh i forgot that
glass mortar
cold blood when u natty crit 60%+ of ur attacks
sharp pond
!wa
ornate heathBOT
Class packs:
Guy's - Afenar's Edit 
Luxthos Edit
Zac's Group 
Devlin
Utilities:
Combo Point Standalone
Last GCD in Crackshot window / Subterfuge timer
Ace refund sound trigger
RtB buffs tracker (shows normal, CTO, and KIR'd buffs)
Unseen Blade tracker
Fun:
Ace max combo counter and Ace current combo counter
KS Ticking damage taken
glass mortar
and ur highest damage source already has 100% crit rate for large portions of the rotation
it really should give bonus crit damage based on crit as well or something
loud hazel
what if cb could make ks 100% crit?
glass mortar
it only effects the first attack
loud hazel
ye
glass mortar
it still wouldnt be good tho
glass mortar
kspree hits hard but not hard enough to change the fact that its gunna natty crit 60% of the time anyway
loud hazel
glass mortar
thats the biggest issue
gaunt phoenix
maybe if it had a 17 second cooldown to align with every ks
glass mortar
yes it can
loud hazel
what if cb could make ks & gauche procs 100% crit all time?
loud hazel
hmmm
loud hazel
CB is so dated
ye
glass mortar
"increases critical strike chance of your next finisher by 100% and its damage by any crit chance over 100%"
loud hazel
hmmm that would be interesting
loud hazel
+20% from bte, 10% base, 15%/60% ruthless bonus Cdamage
glass mortar
probably harder then on kspree
sullen wyvern
what is CB
glass mortar
🤷
loud hazel
cold
sullen wyvern
cold blade?
loud hazel
blood
sullen wyvern
loud hazel
vivid vessel
it only effects the first attack
Not anymore
loud hazel
wat?
loud hazel
Not anymore
u mean, KS 100% killing is real?
loud hazel
loud hazel
Not anymore
explain pleASE
vivid vessel
What
loud hazel
otherwise i can't sleep this night thinking if it's possible or not for ks to become a killing spell
vivid vessel
Ks Crit 100%
desert tendon
professor zac
vivid vessel
All hits
loud hazel
vivid vessel
Never listen to weran
sullen wyvern
GAAAAAAAAAAAAA
loud hazel
glass mortar
lets see how shit
sullen wyvern
either 'fixed'
or a bug that will get hotfixed soon
I would delete those comments just in case
glass mortar
will the current apl even cast this ability
vivid vessel
Nah it's fixed
loud hazel
it's real indeed but now i don't have subterfuge
glass mortar
surely its still got the old support
glass mortar
or a bug that will get hotfixed soon
this is the way it always worked for sech tech
makes no sense it didnt work for kspree
vivid vessel
Or idk I talked with koji about it
fathom bramble
the problem is that KS already has 60% chance to crit most of the time
even just changing it to 100% isn't really a significant damage increase
glass mortar
ok but surely for fatebound where we have a NODE for it it must be closer
fathom bramble
it's less of a total damage increase than 1 single supecharger cp
valid kindle
outlaw benefiting so much from both subterfuge and supercharger doesn't help it either
glass mortar
here we go boys
fathom bramble
even that aside cold blood represents like a 25% damage increase to a single spell every 45 seconds
it's just way against outlaws design
loud hazel
huge problem, cb works with ks but there is no way to play it without dropping deeper strat or subterfuge
glass mortar
wait TRU what if i drop deeper instead
loud hazel
-5% haste & overall dmg
valid kindle
try dropping subterfuge also for the memes
loud hazel
loud hazel
-5% haste & overall dmg
deeper also affects ks
gaunt phoenix
cb is just not for outlaw and that's fine
fathom bramble
cold blood is only worth 1% damage lol
loud hazel
damn it, blizz
fathom bramble
there might be some optimizing that you could find, but nothing can make that good
sullen wyvern
wait TRU what if i drop deeper instead
loud hazel
there might be some optimizing that you could find, but nothing can make that go...
make cb affected by cdr and we are cooking
glass mortar
valid kindle
has cb even been good recently for a spec that's not sub?
fathom bramble
maybe it could be 4% then
sullen wyvern
let's just all drop outlaw
valid kindle
seems meh for assa too but haven't played that for a few expansions
glass mortar
and they just macrod it to envenom probably if they did use it
idk
its just not an interesting ability
it needs some hooks or interactions
fathom bramble
cold blood has never really been good
valid kindle
it's a very wotlk/cata ability
fathom bramble
it's more like the other options are bad enough to raise cold blood up
proven ocean
has cb even been good recently for a spec that's not sub?
It was good for outlaw last expansion
It was like
glass mortar
outlaw could give up utility to take it for a 0.5% dps gain pre rework
fathom bramble
I mean define good
proven ocean
0.4% dps gain
valid kindle
amazing
glass mortar
and u just macrod it to dispatch and bte
sullen wyvern
I;d take that any day
glass mortar
because u just wanted to cast it on cd
wintry solar
Well they took away the other stuff that made it fun
glass mortar
@fathom bramble @vivid vessel how many bombs r in the biggest bomb wave of this fight
do i need to play DS
wintry solar
They should remove gsw and add something like last seasons tier for a big BTE. I want that gameplay
glass mortar
is it worth talenting just for that wave
i think everything else is 5 or less targets
desert tendon
which boss ya talking weran?
glass mortar
OaB
glass mortar
so u get above 5 targets 1 time over the whole fight
desert tendon
but u wont be able to hit them normally
glass mortar
basically
desert tendon
as melee
glass mortar
seems like DS probably not worth?
glass mortar
goly im so excited to try to play kspree on an actual tough fight finally
thank you blizzard for giving me this thrilling gameplay where i could eat floor PoV with any press 🥰
very engaging gameplay
glass mortar
and do what, negative cleave to adds
glass mortar
fatebound on any aoe fight is beyond tragic
desert tendon
u cant press ks during adds cuz u have to bait coins
u cant press ks whoel lase phase
i mean, i havent played outlaw but it sounds hideous
at best you hold it a lot
press ks, get waved / coined / boomed / lasered
seems fun to me
glass mortar
u can last phase
i think
loktark said u can press it during lust at least
you need ks teleport ticks to be under 0.3s intervals because thats the tickrate of lasers
or something like that
red zinc
compensating for sumn
fathom bramble
you need ks teleport ticks to be under 0.3s intervals because thats the tickrate...
you must be in the same laser for 0.3 seconds to take damage so if KS is moving you fast enough you won't get hit unless KS teleports you into the same laser twice in a row
glass mortar
i c
fathom bramble
the 20%ish haste that ho runs at is sufficient for this with just alac and take em active
kir probably needs lust
or if you haste is lower you may also still need lust on ho
fathom bramble
I played fatebound since I thought KS was impossible last phase at the time
and we haven't done farm at all yet
I don't think you go DS it's probably not worth
glass mortar
ye it would be for just that wave basically right
valid tartan
@glass mortar https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2435451843
fathom bramble
you could go full precise cuts build for the potentially higher overall
but I think you just go ST build and kill boss
glass mortar
i mean i aint goin for a parse on prog lol PC sounds helllla troll
if u get under a r3 u dont even get a purple rn anyway so
valid tartan
adds need to die
glass mortar
just kill the boss xd
valid tartan
#1 prio
glass mortar
yes but u can target the adds
fathom bramble
idk I heard you could target boss and cleave 2 adds
glass mortar
reaaaaaly
fathom bramble
there's some precisee potential, but my understanding is that last phase is the hard part anyway
glass mortar
prob depends on boss positioning
fathom bramble
for most people
glass mortar
i dont think theres any world PC isnt pad on this fight tho
all the important damage was burning down the two adds per wave, killing the unccable bombs (target cap aoe) and then boss burn
from what i read
lime lake
parsing is all that matters though
glass mortar
ok yea theres no way im ever double cleaving these adds without boss being held to the inside of one
royal hollow
you mouseover ps and bte on far add
so bf cleaves boss+close add
but you still have the boss as your main target
you will do more add daamge with that + pc
royal hollow
its been around since DF, its not that bad
glass mortar
def not doing that
tacit fractal
Sup boys, been a mage for TWW, how’s outlaw holding up nowadays?
cinder relic
Decent, but killing spree
wintry solar
zac just bte's the far add while standing next to the boss
The benefit of being a hybrid
Semi hybrid ig
glass mortar
how does he auto something playing like that
is he just not baiting coins because its farm
clear tulip
sandbagging mythic one arm with wrong circlet gems 
ocean meadow
Yooo killing spree on mythic sprocket bad? We boop our homies?
valid kindle
you'll send the opposite color flying
ocean meadow
Gotta ill just play sin thank you for confirming
shut lichen
do it if you consider murdering ur friends entertaining
(do it)
also i haven't played outlaw on that fight but it sounds like ass
hollow temple
Or is it a mandatory talent
It’s mandatory for trickster
desert tendon
i mean i aint goin for a parse on prog lol PC sounds helllla troll
idk how troll it is and what u lose for pc, but you need 2 things on this boss : assistants damage and exec damage
royal hollow
i wouldnt call it troll, it just depends on whether you want add damage early on or boss damage for the rush, your raid comp might lack one or the other
glass mortar
idk how troll it is and what u lose for pc, but you need 2 things on this boss :...
u give up a minimum of 6% st to ever take PC
u can focus target the important adds and obviously execute is ST
royal hollow
you also have to think about how much GS value you are gonna lose when you hard swap
glass mortar
itll probably be up on every burn add tho
its definitly gunna be less overall dps
i think its probably better for prog tho
glass mortar
yeaaaaaa
slate plaza
Yooo killing spree on mythic sprocket bad? We boop our homies?
Yes
Play fatebound kir
ocean meadow
yeah will swap for prog next week
saw it to late didnt have talents or anyhthing prepped lol
wasnt fully planning to kill trash man
wintry solar
It was satire at first but now I want it out of spite
raven condor
wox the betrayal
It's joever
desert tendon
for priory apparently
vapid blaze
good notes for 11.1.5 😄
fathom bramble
I'm surprised at how little 11.1.5 has for classes
I guess mage gets reworked in the .7 or something
desert tendon
they dont need any rework tbh
i ve fun on all specs currently
earlier i was like
"what spec should i play in ML", so i opened warcraftlog
didnt get an answer 
vapid blaze
but there is so much class diversity
desert tendon
and they all 3 very fun
wintry solar
Just get me a stick long enough to reach their keyboard and I can do it
desert tendon
using all 3 hero talents which are very fun and add to the rotation in a good meaning way
mage is really a blast rn
i didnt like df mage that much
sharp sand
anyone want to come to mythic raid? we are already 2/8 so u will get locked... we r proggign rik. u can bring ur alt if u dnt want ur main locked.
desert tendon
but tww one is probably the ebst gameplay experience available in wow rn
fathom bramble
they dont need any rework tbh
This was meant as a joke about the number of times mage has recieved the level of changes our hero talents need
fathom bramble
Mage is surely fine after as much iteration as they got
desert tendon
now it s all about tuning
fathom bramble
But it always is so
desert tendon
but dont touch any gameplay i swear
i swear if u like outlaw, you ll like fire
they kinda similar
in some ways
just think of fire mage like outlaw on 80% crackshot uptime
wintry solar
What's the average uptime of subt?
fathom bramble
i swear if u like outlaw, you ll like fire
Sounds about right
I’ve tried most casters at one point or another and only ever liked fire mage
desert tendon
in term of gameplay loop
i think outlaw is more similar to arcane to be totally honest
but not in gameplay button mashin
arcane is a lot of proc react and minmax and fish for the buff and stuff
wintry solar
I liked fire and arcane. Frost never really stuck to me.
wintry solar
Lul
desert tendon
no joke besides, what i like about frost is that you can press buttons in whatever order it will work
just always cast > flurry > lance > lance, and you ll be fine in 99% of the situations
desert tendon
it s really good
but that s also because of hero talent
sunfury fits too well
frostfire bolt proc giving you flurry stacks for fun so you dont just sit here and spam bolt waiting for a proc
late swallow
lime lake
red zinc
no joke besides, what i like about frost is that you can press buttons in whatev...
non chinese frost mage detected
They got different tuning over there fs
wintry solar
"Different tuning"
Reminds me of when I somehow talented out of HO and put it in GSW and Bal said that's what they run in china
red zinc
nah but like
Now its not that big of a deal to play frost
But these mfs were playing frost mage in s2 df after the rework
When fire was literally the most busted thing ever created
wintry solar
Maybe they had a cook we didnt?
red zinc
yeah but its not like frost has that many intricacies where you can minmax it to that extent
desert tendon
nah they just prefer the overall dam of frost i guess
it always look like cn are really into overall damage in keys i feel like
maybe i m just wrong but that s my feeling
desert tendon
they dont
late swallow
real and true btw
red zinc
i heard the chinese actually banned skeletons so theres less mobs in top for them
desert tendon
they play outlaw but since they lost bac i swear they must be running gsw no craskshot cold blood now
red zinc
desert tendon
for real
wintry solar
I thought they just replaced them
red zinc
apparently its the goo guys
In CN
i saw it somewhere
like the green goop guys from maldraxxus are in top instead
desert tendon
wintry solar
Interesting
desert tendon
gosh this video is old
frail veldt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aycxWsFMD_o
madseason is great
wintry solar
Upright undead would go so hard
languid wasp
wow subreddit is full on mourning our class right now, someone posted 'most played classes' statistics for this season and we're second to last just 1% above evokers
desert tendon
because outlaw didnt existed back then
i also answered it
damn i m so good at this kind of question
wintry solar
Rogue had the new combo points tho
desert tendon
no unless you re a boomer and you think playing a 20 years old game will bring you back to your teenage bedroom with your madonna posters
gimme another video i ll answer it in less than 2 sentences
wintry solar
I always thought that completing the max lvl content for max level conduits was dumb. At that point you don't even need the conduits. You won!
Like I got elite in pvp and unlocked the max lvl conduits
But
I didn't need them anymore
wintry solar
I liked the borrowed power itself
Hated the acquisition
People said that with the trees we'd still get borrowed power lvl of talents but I haven't seen it.
red zinc
Like either make tier sets more interesting than numbers
or add some other sort of system
if we got SL s3 type tier sets every season id be fine with it too
late swallow
"vues"
glass mortar
People said that with the trees we'd still get borrowed power lvl of talents but...
i mean the hero trees r like 20-30% of our power
they r probably stronger then alot of the borrowed power systems theyve done
at least initially
wintry solar
I meant in terms of gameplay
wintry solar
I should've clarified
dawn talon
BFA and SL good
i liked bfa and people act like that's the worst thing ever
glass mortar
they are better now like 5 or 6 tree redesigns later
but we could use some love on ours
wintry solar
i liked bfa and people act like that's the worst thing ever
I think I was close to being crucified for saying I liked SL when it was current content.
wintry solar
Imo, once you got your leggo and conduits, I kinda want to say it was the best gameplay wow has had.
Maybe ever? Icr that far back.
There were so many combos of playstyle for most specs
glass mortar
yea
like 75% of the way thru the expac
when all those systems u included were fully designed
it was pretty good
that shit was pretty shit early
especially for people with... unfun covenant choices
i think rogues were fairly balanced iirc?
like boomkin was lowkey banging in m+ in s1, but every boomkin had to play night fae for raid prog and swapping was just not a realistic system at all
so they were meh in m+
wintry solar
Convoke made me want to rip my eyes out in pvp
Yeah early SL was aids no denying that
Had blizz done what they did during S4 in S1, it'd be remembered much more fondly.
late swallow
BFA and SL good
when I'm in a contrarian competition and my oponent is Foreverguy
gaunt phoenix
BFA and SL good
wintry solar
I'd win
glass mortar
bfa i liked
it had some similarities tho
shitty systems they didnt test enough then fixed half a patch later
glass mortar
nah i agree i dont remember shadowlands fondly
low point lore and design wise imo
but it had its moments as wow always does
denny was a great villian
far better then the expacs main one
wintry solar
I liked it all the way through tbh.
gaunt phoenix
I like SL for outlaw design mainly
dawn talon
i actually liked a lot of design choices from sl
i think that a lot of implementation in sl was bad but the design was good
gaunt phoenix
but ik they had a really low point with subscriber counts even tho classic was doing well
so they had to pivot away from SL somehow
grim spear
wtf
wintry solar
Do one for combat/outlaw iterations
wintry solar
I like SL for outlaw design mainly
Really the only reason I liked the whole expac. Was a banger day 1.
gaunt phoenix
idk the true contrarian would say the game has been largely the same since ion's direction
dawn talon
dawn talon
i did not like wrath, i played wrath classic and didn't like it the 2nd time
and i think the lich king is kinda boring
gaunt phoenix
we were all 11 years old in wrath
grim spear
yep
torpid fiber
speak for yourself i was 6 and not playing world of warcraft
grim spear
icc is boring
dawn talon
i think that like
mc excluded
icc is the most boring raid ever
can't wait to zone into to do nothing for 45 minutes and then do 2 bosses of real reclear
wintry solar
grim spear
MC is very simple, but as the first raid, it's actually not bad
dawn talon
yeah
that's why i exclude it
like they had no dev time for it and no idea what they were doing
and they made a simple raid that was a pretty good reality check
for what to expect for the next few tiers after it
glass mortar
icc is the most boring raid ever
except for literally every raid before it xd
but yes wotlk was still classic era wow
classes were just starting to have actual rotations
cata was where real boss design started to step up imo
mechanic wise
dawn talon
except for literally every raid before it xd
eh i think the only one competing with icc for boringness is naxx
naxx trash/walking around doing 0
is the worst shit ever
glass mortar
and every vanilla and bc raid
grim spear
i like mc, that feeling of awe from my first raid experience is an unforgettable memory that can't be replaced.
dawn talon
i legit think hyjal is more fun than icc
people say totc sucked but it lowkey windmill dunks on icc until youj're comparing the last 2 of both
late swallow
wotlk zones and music were giga
dawn talon
and lich king is unironically one of the worst encounters ever
carried by bro aura farming
late swallow
gotta look at it in the context of where wow was at the time
wintry solar
It's really hard to rank expansions and raids from so long ago tbh
dawn talon
gotta look at it in the context of where wow was at the time
i played it at the time and then played it a 2nd time
late swallow
the scope of the game was hella widened in that xpac
late swallow
i'm growing just thinking about it ngl
glass mortar
but mechanics in bosses lagged behind imo
i just dont weigh those very heavily
for the time they were fine
dawn talon
i mean yeah i think wotlk's impact on the direction wow took
desert tendon
df in bad guy?
dawn talon
was good
desert tendon
intresting
dawn talon
i just think the actual gameplay of the expansion was ass
desert tendon
i mean df wasnt that great but to say it was the worst, i wouldnt. Opinions tho, we dont have to agree obviously
dawn talon
bad dungeon design boring class design with weird blunders and tuning that was just as bad as release vanilla for most of the expansion cycle bad & boring raid encounters
glass mortar
damn if i had to give my favorite expac ever it would be a tossup between wod and df ngl
depends on what aspect of the game im weighing heaviest
dawn talon
i was a super degenerate sitting inside all day skipping school doing nothing during wod
so i was kindap issed the whole expansion
bc i wanted more shit to do
gaunt phoenix
i really enjoyed bc classic but the game is so different i cant really rank it
glass mortar
yea i just loved the class design
desert tendon
to me i think MOP was probably the best expac. But i dont think i'd like to play it again, it was the real begining of rep / weekly / daily farming like 10h a day
glass mortar
and for me, legion took many specs i loved in a brand new direction that made me basically never wanna play them again
dawn talon
yeah
i think pre and post legion
are two different types of class dessign entirely
even if you completely disregard every other change made to the game
desert tendon
indeed
glass mortar
like enhance has basically returned back to almost pre legion design with a modern twist
desert tendon
combat vs outlaw 
glass mortar
i hated post legion enhance
same for demo
sub 
man wod/cata/pandaria sub
was such a banger
before this naruto shit
dawn talon
i liked demo until df rework
late swallow
but mechanics in bosses lagged behind imo
mechanics in wotlk bosses, for the time, were goated
dawn talon
bring back my nether portal
late swallow
your modern wow brain thinks they were bad
because now we're solving captchas mid raid
glass mortar
i said it was fine for its time
imo cata was where they really started ramping up to modern boss design
adding more interesting stuff and experimenting
glass mortar
world pvp in cata was goated
dawn talon
cata was really cool
late swallow
overshadowed by mop since mop pvp was goated af
glass mortar
cata lives in the shade of mop, rogue legendary dagger questline was also goated
to this day the best legendary questline in the game, i wont take any arguments
the stealth sections were so good
i wish they did more class content
dawn talon
oh yeah that reminds me
glass mortar
favorite part of legion was the class storylines
wintry solar
I think df went too far one direction in terms of gameplay accessibility and it kinda made the expac boring
It felt like nothing I did mattered
dawn talon
i think df had good ideas that they didn't fully commit to