#tc-research

1 messages · Page 41 of 1

orchid fjord
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use it if

BtE is up, or TB is up, or RP+BtE

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thats most of the time honestly

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and <15 seconds to not waste it

noble pendant
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yeah, with outlaw having very controlled CP generation, your condition actually probably does nothing tbh

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which is probably why its simming equal

orchid fjord
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well i was wondering if it would make a different to have more limited conditions combined with a last resort "don't waste it" use of shiv or something

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but im not sure how to do that... and these results were so negligible i cant imagine it would end up being worth the efforrt

noble pendant
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well it's not wasted right now anyway

orchid fjord
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how do you know that? i heard from vaughn its possible to check that but idk

noble pendant
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if you go under the "procs, uptimes & benefits" section, it'll tell you animacharged combo points used

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you can just check that compared to casts

orchid fjord
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i see

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yeah so theres zero benefit in those conditions for the first 30 seconds and not because its losing any

noble pendant
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yeah

orchid fjord
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so theres no way a last resort save is going to make the difference

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im both relieved an disappointed

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lol

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i wonder if it's worth saving it for cleave in something like dungeon slice

noble pendant
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also your other conditions:

|debuff.between_the_eyes.up|buff.true_bearing.up|(buff.ruthless_precision.up&cooldown.between_the_eyes.up

are quite broad, to the point where you're hitting at least one of those consistently enough to also be pretty much irrelevant

orchid fjord
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yeah... well i originally tried more narrow

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but taking out the BtE debuff, which is up most of the time, was the biggest loss iirc

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none of the individual or two condition combinations were better

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some were worse

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There is a pretty big difference in damage though using it on a single target mob vs. a 5 pack AoE cleave... I really hope that one works out or im going to start thinking skill is a myth

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idk much about simcraft yet... i guess i could try to copy the BFsync used for BR

noble pendant
# orchid fjord some were worse

well yes, what you're experiencing is normal, you tried something, it wasn't good, so then you broadened your condition to the point where you were actually just left with the original condition

orchid fjord
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yup

orchid fjord
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So about the BF sync adaptation...

actions+="/variable,name=blade_flurry_sync,value=spell_targets.blade_flurry<2&raid_event.adds.in>20|buff.blade_flurry.up
I'm thinking this won't need to be touched... it just needs to be referenced.

BR's use of it:
actions.cds+="/blade_rush,if=variable.blade_flurry_sync&(energy.time_to_max>2|spell_targets>2)"

finisher action list:
actions+="/run_action_list,name=finish,if=combo_points>=cp_max_spend-buff.broadside.up-(buff.opportunity.up*talent.quick_draw.enabled)|combo_points=animacharged_cp"

modified finisher action list:
actions+="/run_action_list,name=finish,if=combo_points>=cp_max_spend-buff.broadside.up-(buff.opportunity.up*talent.quick_draw.enabled)|combo_points=animacharged_cp,if=variable.blade_flurry_sync&cooldown.echoing_reprimand.remains>20"

I'm not too confident about this one because I don't totally understand how BF sync works. I thought it meant itll hold the ability if there are adds in 20 seconds or less, but when does the line read "adds.in**>**20"?

So far my intention is to hold animacharged if blade flurry will be up within 20 seconds, assuming there is still at least 20 seconds left on the ER cooldown.

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maybe its like the opposite, use if adds in >20, else hold

noble pendant
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if spell_targets.blade_flurry<2&raid_event.adds.in>20|buff.blade_flurry.up is true, then the variable is true, which makes it true here: variable.blade_flurry_sync&(energy.time_to_max>2|spell_targets>2), which means it will do actions.cds+="/blade_rush, that

orchid fjord
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So my line says use the animacharged if you land on it and there are no adds within 20 seconds and more than 20 seconds left ER cooldown... basically it wont even use it sub 20 seconds on CD lol

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should be an OR CD remainning

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actions+="/run_action_list,name=finish,if=combo_points>=cp_max_spend-buff.broadside.up-(buff.opportunity.up*talent.quick_draw.enabled)|combo_points=animacharged_cp,if=variable.blade_flurry_sync|cooldown.echoing_reprimand.remains<20"

So the only way to change the time to wait without changing the way Blade Rush works is to create another blade_flurry_sync(2) or something?

noble pendant
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not gonna lie, I can't really get through one of these paragraphs without my eyes glazing over

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but to this part, "So the only way to change the time to wait without changing the way Blade Rush works is to create another blade_flurry_sync(2) or something?", you could just remove the BF sync, and make another one, yes

orchid fjord
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still need the BF sync for BR

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well i would probably be playing the game instead of all this minutia if I could

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my computer can't really run the game properly so i got tired of ruining keys over it... figured id work on playing my character without playing

knotty oriole
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Looked into the BtE question and even with the crit/Blade Flurry bug implemented it seems like a pretty significant DPS loss (2% on 3T) to avoid using an Animacharged CP on BtE in this scenario

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The reasons for this two-fold in terms of both giving up BtE debuff uptime and also BtE cooldown reduction. Since BtE combo points reduce their own cooldown when cast, casting with 7 effective CP instantly lowers the cooldown of BtE by the larger amount. You turn 2-4 CP into 7 CP of CDR. However if you sequence it the other way and use your 7CP finisher first, not only are you delaying the cooldown of BtE by another few seconds (since you have to generate back up again over a few globals) but then are simply giving up "free" CDR.

orchid fjord
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nice, sounds good

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animacharged aside, I am still curious about the use of BtE on cleave vs dispatch in general (assuming bte debuff is up). With my napkin math @ 4+ targets Dispatch was higher average Damage Per Energy than BtE, at which point cooldown reduction on BtE specifically doesn't have value since at this point BtE is weaker and less efficient. There is still a slight benefit to cheaper cooldown reduction from BtE as well but that's negligible imo.

It sounds pretty niche but if you're spending 7CP on a BtE, add on potential TB and AR and it's really not.

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this is also assuming RP is not up... in that case I would just use BtE on CD. You can only hit 5 total targets so Dispatch will never be higher DPE in that case.

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actually that ties back into the animacharged question because if you're sustaining on 4-5 target (debuff up, RP down) situation where you land on an animacharged BtE you shouldn't use it, not because of BtE interaction w/ animacharged but just because we might be valuing Dispatch at that point in general.

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In most cases I would just use it just to make sure I animacharge on 4-5 targets period... and not after they die and I'm fighting 1-2 mobs. That brings me to my last question here which is whether not to hold animacharge for upcoming cleave. I'll be going with my current approach which is just, when in doubt, no; but sometimes its jut so obvious like you're fighting 1 mob, about to pull big pack, and have plenty of time left on ER.

orchid fjord
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Any idea how I might put BtE above Blade Rush in the APL if the bte debuff is up?

actions+="/call_action_list,name=cds" is above /run_action_list,name=finish

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maybe i should just put BtE into the CD list?

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with conditions that make it used right

noble pendant
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a quick solution would be to add your Bte conditions either above the cd itself, or above blade rush in the given list

orchid fjord
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i dont actually expect it to be better

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but i just wanted to know cause someone thought it might be

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I added this above Blade Rush in the CD list:

actions.finish+="/between_the_eyes",if=!debuff.between_the_eyes.up

if debuff is not up, use BtE

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im just not usre if that will adhere to finisher rules

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ya i think i need to just add what is added to run_action_list,name=finish to the line itself

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and it may need to be actions.cds to be part of the CD action list

orchid fjord
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Hey @lean talon , hope you don't mind but I just kept going with your character for the sim out of convenience. I did make you a blood elf (like me) and now wish I had shadowmeld. That's a crazy racial for rogues if it works how I think.

So these tests are just choosing BtE over BR if both are usable (you might imagine doing so for the crit bonus)

Deeper Stratagem:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/fLusK23vqNBGgxakt9syQS

MfD:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/6Cke2xKC9Tv6Njc4mS9Lf6

I have a decent idea as to why the results are the way there are but I'm not going to ramble here.
I also tested it based on the debuff already being up or not. Making the decision irrespective of the debuff was slightly better than either case.

Raidbots
Advanced Sim - 6,268 DPS - Raidbots
Raidbots
Advanced Sim - 6,267 DPS - Raidbots
orchid fjord
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Also, I just tested finishing -1 CP to squeeze something into TB thats about to fall off and my results are all wonky. The Damage per execute of dispatch, for example, is way too low for something so niche. I also saw weird finishes in the sample log that didn't make sense to me.

I added on an extra or condition to the run_action_list,name=finish

# Finish at maximum CP but avoid wasting Broadside and Quick Draw bonus combo points

actions+="/run_action_list,name=finish,if=combo_points>=cp_max_spend-buff.broadside.up-(buff.opportunity.up*talent.quick_draw.enabled)|combo_points=animacharged_cp|(combo_points>=cp_max_spend-buff.broadside.up-(buff.opportunity.up*talent.quick_draw.enabled)-1&buff.true_bearing.remains<=1)"

It's big and clunky looking but I just copy+pasted the regular condition and put it in parentheses with a -1 & true bearing time renaming.

lean talon
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your condition makes it subtract -1 for broadside, -1 for opportunity and -1 if true bearing is up for less than 1 second, so it might finish with up to maxcp -3 if all conditions are true. but i just wanna say that most of this people have tested already and this channel isnt really for brainstorming or writing down ideas that didnt work out

also i think the phrasing in -1& is weird, not sure if you can put it like that

noble pendant
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-1& should be fine

regal agate
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it should be -(1*condition) probably

noble pendant
orchid fjord
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yeah i saw a 2 CP finish like wut

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well how can i know what ideas did or didnt work out... i've asked questions like this and get conflicting answers without on the spot links to sims I can look at and see for myself

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should i just ask in the simcraft discord

noble pendant
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if ideas did work out, they're implemented into the default apl, if they didn't, it depends on whether people share what they tested, which they usually don't if its not a gain

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because no gain = no worry

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not really any structure in place for what has been looked at or not looked at aside from just word of mouth and logic

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like you can safely assume that every talent/legendary combination under the sun has been tried and testing 20 times over

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animacharge combo points have been covered extensively, as have covenant and conduit things

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without any big changes, you're gonna be pretty hard pressed to find something of importance that got missed tbh

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most of finds for sin recently are "well ambush bad so lets not use it", for outlaw its "well this one specific reroll is better than that" or "hey lets use this ability that gives a cp but we don't use"

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and sub hasn't really seen anything in a while

orchid fjord
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ok

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so should i post in the the main outlaw page

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or am i just not allowed to post about it

noble pendant
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no one's gonna stop you from posting anything

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but if you're simming something and it's just a random thought which ends up being like 1.5% down or something

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doubt anyone would care

orchid fjord
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i just want to know for myself

noble pendant
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then go for it man

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that's why its open source

orchid fjord
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ok

noble pendant
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anyone is welcome to sim and compare for themselves to see how changes to rotations respond in actual dps

orchid fjord
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nobody is obligated to help me learn simcraft lol

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also when someone asks a question i like to answer it from first-hand knowledge rather than "i think someone maybe simmed this once"

orchid fjord
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So I tried this and got margin-of-error results:

actions+="/run_action_list,name=finish,if=combo_points>=cp_max_spend-buff.broadside.up-(buff.opportunity.up*talent.quick_draw.enabled)|combo_points=animacharged_cp|(combo_points>=cp_max_spend-(1*buff.broadside.up-(buff.opportunity.up*talent.quick_draw.enabled))&buff.true_bearing.remains<=1)"

I'm really not expecting much but I'm suspicious because the logic doesn't make sense to me. Isn't -(1*condition) just equal to -condition? That would be mean that my condition just ends up behaving like the original. Don't I need -(condition)-1, and ultimately (cp_max_spend-(condition)-1)&(TB condition). I tried it with all sort of parenthesis as well and just got the same results (a loss that goes way beyond something this niche).

I just decided to to make it combo_points=4 and not worry about DS.

run_action_list,name=finish,if=combo_points>=cp_max_spend-buff.broadside.up-(buff.opportunity.up*talent.quick_draw.enabled)|combo_points=animacharged_cp|(combo_points=4&buff.true_bearing.remains<=1)

The results changed but still don't make sense:

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/dFFcNtDvXtTyoyk5EmPzJg/simc

@1:03.698 in the sample dispatch was used at 4 CP; no broadside, no opportunity proc, no animacharge, no true bearing. 🤨

grave wharf
orchid fjord
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so id need something like TBup&TBremains<1?

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that would mean its finishing at 4 whenever TB isnt up which i dont think its doing but ill try

grave wharf
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That is... not what I'm saying. At least until you're very confident on the simc internals I'd wrap every single operation in parentheses to be sure the line is doing what you expect

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so for example
combo_points=4&buff.true_bearing.remains<=1
becomes
(combo_points=4)&(buff.true_bearing.remains<=1)

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I don't work on writing new APL stuff but I do read/write code for a living and I'd be worried there's a bug in that string of operations since I don't know how simc treats the precedence of &, <, and =

orchid fjord
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im pretty sure i tested it that way but im goin to double check

knotty oriole
orchid fjord
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the parenthesis didn't make a difference, adding &buff.true_bearing.up did though. It brought it up from a marginal loss to most tests within margin-of-error.. leaning towards ~+2 DPS I think.

I changed the values to something extreme to see if it was even interacting in an expected way and it was.. expanding <10 or <30 seconds or lowering the combo points did have a pretty big impact.

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so yes, the answer im sure many of you expect/knew

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I thought changing rtb_reroll time (from < 3 to < 1)would make a difference so this event could happen more frequently. Actually this gave much more of a boost, ~10 dps.

regal agate
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to re iterate on this because it seems a question.
conditions are 0 if wrong and 1 if true, this means:
-1*condition,-1&condition and -condition should all work the same
-(condition) - 1 would always subtract the static value regardless of the condition and overall end in a decrement of 2 instead of the i assume wanted 1.
what you also need to keep in mind if you use & and * is operator precedence and if in doubt just use ().

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the simplest way to manipulate the apl is masking what simply means that you add a condition to it with the & operator, you can usually see a change in trigger count for that condition in the report:

📎 unknown.png
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if you want to add additional conditions its probably better to just branch it out to a new condition esp. for readability. That's not uncommon in the apl, some examples:
actions+=/call_action_list,name=finish,if=combo_points=animacharged_cp -> for finishing with anima charged cp
actions+=/call_action_list,name=finish,if=spell_targets.shuriken_storm>=4&combo_points>=4 -> finishes with 4 cp on a target count of 4

regal agate
# noble pendant if ideas did work out, they're implemented into the default apl, if they didn't,...

I think we are usually transparent with those things but it often comes down to having many iterations/conditionals that we compare to. Having to document and explain all of those seems like a very big additional effort. If anything its usually best to just ask directly if we tested something as the answer is often yes or a quick test (if it sounds somewhat reasonable) is done fairly fast and gives a good estimate.

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its overall very uncommon that we find dps increases in the higher % margins, the majority of increases we atm have is fine tuning conditions that are often within .1 to .5% dps changes.

lean talon
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The new line to sync up direct damage trinkets with MA doesn't work for Skulker's Wing. My guess is that it hits the "trinket.2.has_stat.any" line because it gives Speed. Removing that line fixes the problem, and Dreadfire Vessel for example works fine.
It is losing another 25 dps from this.
The only solution i could come up with to fix Skulker's Wing but still separate stat trinket is maybe to put in an extra line specifically for skulker?

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/x2LHNn1Lp112GBUCgHtoWB

Raidbots
Advanced Sim - 6,065 DPS - Raidbots
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I'm also wondering if there is a way to still sync it up with ghostly strike atleast in the situations where it wouldnt really need to hold either for more than a few seconds, like in the opener

📎 unknown.png
knotty oriole
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@lean talon Hmm. This worked with Skulker’s when I tested locally since that’s the trinket I was using at the time.

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I’ll debug your profile and see.

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Although personally not sure I’d play it that close with Skulker’s because it loves not triggering immediately at times.

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And Dreadfire has a notable amount of travel time

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(For the GS question)

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But checking GS in the opener vs the remains of the buff should be possible in theory.

lean talon
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Skulking is at 59% crit with the standard APL but moves to 94% if i remove that line while dreadfire doesnt have that problem, thats why im thinking it is specific to skulker's. And atleast in my mind it would make sense because technically, Skulker's is a stat trinket too.
For ghostly its probably not very important, the APL has ~75% uptime of the debuff anyways so it just accidentally lines up a lot i would guess.

knotty oriole
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Yeah I would suspect it mostly would just catch the opener

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Your hunch about the Speed being the cause is probably right but if that’s the case I can fix it in code probably.

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Just not sure why it worked for me locally in my own build.

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I didn’t test it on Raidbots since it didn’t have the fix yet.

plain coral
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Hello ! Just a quick question to be sure, is the interaction between Sepsis and Shadowblade implemented in simc ?

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I noticed that Shadowblade create damage out of Sepsis ticks (in game)

noble pendant
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yes

plain coral
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you sure ?

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because here the mean show only 84 execute count

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with rawly 70 to 75 count only from auto-hit and the remaining probably from Shadowstrike, considering Sepsis should have at least 20 more hit to SB (assuming it sync with blade twice)

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I mean if it's implemented then I trust you !

noble pendant
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hold on I'm double checking if it's a bugs=1 type thing

plain coral
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wait I'm wrong somehow

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yes i'm stupid SB does not trigger from auto hit anymore

noble pendant
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can also see the difference in hits

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for fae vs no covenant

plain coral
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40 hits difference

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dafuq

noble pendant
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yeh

plain coral
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should be ~25 hit no ?

noble pendant
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(its a stiletto sim vs a no conduit sim as well, I did it really sloppy :P)

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its enough to show though

plain coral
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oh ok

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make sense

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thanks for checking anyway !

noble pendant
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np

plain coral
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I'm curious to see how Sepsis actually pull out when we'll have 1:30 cooldown on SB

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if it ever happen (currently happen with rank15 stilleto in sims)

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Also I wonder if it's even worth it syncing blade and Sepsis with Stilleto, assuming it does not make you loose a sepsis cast

noble pendant
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well if you don't lose a cast, syncing with anything is always > not syncing

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sepsis + anything will always be better than just sepsis

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given the constraint of not losing a cast

plain coral
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some factor can double up such as SB and Groove syncronization uptime

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Would need to test on 6:20 fights or 5:20 using a 0/2:00/3:30/5:00 timing well nvm ty ty for checking anyway!

knotty oriole
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@plain coral Yeah I implemented it in SimC when testing on live first raid week or something.

plain coral
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Good ty !

knotty oriole
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Staccato syncing isn’t something I specifically looked at with the APL though. So maybe worth some investigation.

plain coral
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I believe there might be some stuff with that sepsis thingy, but it's just an intiution. And syncing is always pain is the ass to make

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like the horrible Convok sync line in Boomkin apl xD

knotty oriole
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Haha

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Yeah syncing is sometimes fairly annoying

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In this case it might not be too bad though

knotty oriole
noble pendant
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@knotty oriole Tisumi pointed out something that slipped past me for some reason when I was looking at opener stuff. The necrolord default actually uses bone spike during MA windows (this is with the talent, but it would be a bigger gain for the legendary) for sin. This seems to be a problem with the variable grouping and a check for MA. Changing the line:
serrated_bone_spike,cycle_targets=1,if=buff.slice_and_dice.up&!dot.serrated_bone_spike_dot.ticking|fight_remains<=5|cooldown.serrated_bone_spike.charges_fractional>=2.75|soulbind.lead_by_example.enabled&!buff.lead_by_example.up
to this line instead with the paranthesis and MA check here:
serrated_bone_spike,cycle_targets=1,if=!stealthed.rogue&master_assassin_remains=0&buff.slice_and_dice.up&(!dot.serrated_bone_spike_dot.ticking|fight_remains<=5|cooldown.serrated_bone_spike.charges_fractional>=2.75|soulbind.lead_by_example.enabled&!buff.lead_by_example.up)
results in a gain of about 0.5-0.6%:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/3Aw7q36z8FcBZtK1Z91YLH

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(should be noted the !stealthed.rogue is an artifact of my testing and isn't necessary most likely)

knotty oriole
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Thanks. Might have some time to look later tonight. Otherwise will check out on the weekend.

knotty oriole
noble pendant
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sounds good, thank you

proven dagger
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are double on-use trinkets getting correctly simulated with a forced 20sec CD between uses?

lean talon
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yes

knotty oriole
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@lean talon @willow knoll So I think I solved the mystery of the inconsistent Vanish into finisher value with MA.

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Was driving me crazy last night how it was a gain for some builds but not for others

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Basically it just seems to fully come down to CP alignment now that the MA window is shorter

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Deeper builds can't actually get up to a high enough CP threshold during the 2 middle globals so can't fit 2 finishers in the window anyway, so it ends up being a waste in cases where BtE is low on cooldown. You can't Vanish->BtE because you need either Dispatch or Ambush for CtO, so BtE ends up getting wasted.

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Solution seems to be to try to finish with Ambush when BtE is available and finisher if not. That seems to at least make it neutral for GS+DS builds (actually +0.1%) while still letting it have roughly exaclty the same gains for QD or GS+MfD builds (somewhere between 0.4%-0.5%)

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Basically something like this:

actions.cds+=/vanish,if=runeforge.mark_of_the_master_assassin&master_assassin_remains=0&(!cooldown.between_the_eyes.ready&variable.finish_condition|cooldown.between_the_eyes.ready&variable.ambush_condition)&(!conduit.count_the_odds|buff.roll_the_bones.remains>=10)

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I couldn't put in the naive version until I figured this out because it was like... a 0.8% loss for GS+DS builds to just always do with a finisher lol

lean talon
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yes im pretty sure i tried vanish only at high CP with MA before too and it was a loss, but it was with DS. really good detective work 🕵️

knotty oriole
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Yeah I was like really happy with the update, then I started testing all the builds. And I'm like 👍 👍 👍 👀

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Was really annoying me lol

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But this seems solid

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Also adding a few minor things like no RtB during master_assassin_remains which is a bit of gain for DS situations

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With some builds this is like +1.1% for DS sims with Master Assassin

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ST it's mostly in the 0.4-0.5% range

severe spindle
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Hey, I’m not sure if this is the right channel, but has anyone run sims on optimal flagellation use? Lining up the cast/buff with AR/lust/etc

noble pendant
vivid knot
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hey guys quick question 😄 so i simmed myself (a couple of times) on a targetdummy fight (so absolutely no outside buffs) and then went on the actual target dummy (10 times) and everything more or less lines up with the sim aside from instant poison, instant poison is always ~25% ish lower then the sim (even with adjusting for sometimes less hits with the average dps of ip on that try and comparable crit%, it does vary +-3% from that ~25% but not much more) and the question is... why? xD [thats a copy pasta from the sub channel 😄 and i was recommended to post my sim / log in here to find out if something is wrong with the sims / what im doing, since this is my first time doing something like this i apologise for any errors ive made ^^']

mystic jolt
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It's all variance with crit and procs, same as with how your DFV did a lot more damage than the sim's due to you critting on 3/4s of your casts - one WCL report is nowhere near enough of a sample size to really compare against 13,386 iterations (pulled from your raidbots report).

knotty oriole
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It does look like maybe Blizzard fixed some 🍝 with some background Nightstalker effects that we had reported, but I'm confirming now. Although what he said about the Crit variance is definitely a factor here too.

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Yeah does look like IP is simming slightly too high now, but only talking a pretty small amount of DPS as a percentage. Shouldn't really change any evaluations.

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Since there aren't any specific interactions there

vivid knot
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hey thanks for the quick answer 😄

knotty oriole
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No problem!

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I've fixed the issue now in SimC, so should be better reflected tomorrow

maiden cargo
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when you vendetta does it affect all dots you have on the target immediatley, or do u need to re apply them to get the 30%

knotty oriole
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Immediately

maiden cargo
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Is there any data on sims with 2 legendaries?

noble pendant
#

you can add multiple legendaries via bonus ID's, but since you cannot equip more than 1, there hasn't been any serious testing on combinations

cosmic orbit
#

Not sure if this is the right channel, but what do I paste in to sim with PI?

#

Just curious how good it'd be for sin, etc.

noble pendant
# cosmic orbit Not sure if this is the right channel, but what do I paste in to sim with PI?

there's this spreadsheet here which has already done that: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/113kqcqy9ai37c8EBUJK-sWYciqQ9Tb7ctmCy_boDKdg/edit#gid=0
The line you're looking for is external_buffs.power_infusion="x/x/x" where x is the time the buff is applied, in seconds

Google Docs
optimal PI timing sims

Sheet1

dps from official simcraft t26 ilvl 226 profiles,with PI used optimally,DPS Gain,sim link,updated,note,seconds at which PI is applied
Marksmanship,6463,6969,506,https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/t3tTMZM1kDRnzV9ua...

severe spindle
#

Is there an updated version or that ^^^ it looks like it hasnt been redone in a couple of weeks with some changes that went through

noble pendant
#

Not to my knowledge, the buffs don’t really change the evaluation much though

wet mountain
#

How can I keep up with any new APL change?

noble pendant
#

usually just watching this channel, asking in spec channels, and if you're testing APL changes, making sure you're on nightly when simming. If you're trying to be giga, you could just keep an eye on the github commits to simc

regal agate
wet mountain
#

Thanks @regal agate. Do you guys have any beginner guide to somebody who is trying to get into APL? How to setup SimC, documentation for APL language etc

regal agate
lost echo
#

are there apl's designed for maximum boss damage? and if so can they be used in raidbots?

noble pendant
#

The sub apl has a feature for priority_rotation=1, which models highest priority damage in aoe.

lost echo
#

fantastic ❤️

#

im getting errors, sorry but could you be a little more specific where in the input i need to place that line?

noble pendant
#

It’s literally just “priority_rotation=1”

#

It won’t work outside of advanced most likely

lost echo
#

yeah i tried that in advanced, put it right above soulbind stuff, got an error

#

maybe it had to do with something else i put in

noble pendant
#

What’s the error

lost echo
#

that's probably unrelated to the prio apl huh

noble pendant
#

It looks to be in order, I’m not sure if it’s something with beastlord and priority maybe together? It shouldn’t be but I’m not sure what else would be the issue

#

Try it on like a 4 target patchwerk and see what happens

knotty oriole
#

What's a link to the sim?

#

The error'd sim results

lost echo
knotty oriole
#

Will take a look

lost echo
#

omg

#

i'm so dumb

#

i had the outlaw apl in there

knotty oriole
#

Oh, yeah that could be problematic 😄

lost echo
#

face. palm.

noble pendant
#

Lmao

boreal patrol
#

you can put priority_rotation=1 into the custom APL box to use it for top gear etc on raidbots

lost echo
#

that's nuts!

noble pendant
#

Usually top gear complains when I add things to it PepeHands

knotty oriole
#

The problem is I don't think top gear lets you use primary target DPS as a metric

#

Think it's on Seri's to-do

#

Still sorts by overall

#

Apparently you can get profilesets to sort by prio dps but I guess the output isn't set up in a way that Raidbots handles well

wet mountain
#

I would like to know in which way I can contribute to the rogue APL.

noble pendant
#

If you have an idea on how the APL can be improved, test it, and if it’s a gain, post it here

regal agate
wet mountain
noble pendant
#

That’s all contained in the github wiki

#

Basically just take the default, then make copies with your changes

wet mountain
#

I'll try to play around with it, thank you!

wet mountain
noble pendant
#

running sims locally also takes a lot of time :P

wet mountain
#

lol is it like having ~500 people in raidbots' queue?

#

I guess it depends on my specs

regal agate
#

if you want to use it locally the best idea is probably to download the latest version from the simcraft ftp

boreal patrol
#

definitely get a nightly. even better might be to learn how to compile it yourself

regal agate
#

if you want to improve the apl, i would say your best interest is to try to understand what the current one does. Majority of complex lines has comments explaining what they do.
links to the apls are on github: https://github.com/Ravenholdt-TC/Rogue/wiki

lean talon
knotty oriole
#

@lean talon I think technically it does

#

Precombat is targeted on the true primary target and then it would become untargetable and demise

#

Only real option would be to disable the precombat cast if there is an invulnerable event

#

As far as the module is concerned the primary target "dies" on the first event of the sim

#

(Fluffy_Pillow vs. Fluffy_Billow_Boss1)

#

Possible I could hack something into the module when handling the demise events

lean talon
#

ah that makes sense, thanks for clarifying! i guess the impact of one extra reset in a dslice sim isnt THAT big, maybe it gives a bit more value to MA though

knotty oriole
#

Yeah I'll see if I can hack something

lean talon
knotty oriole
#

Ok, should have a solution in now. Although really made no perceptible DPS difference that I could see. 😛

#

Only averages like 0.4 fewer MfD casts per sim because of the offsets lol

stiff roost
#

When using secret technique on single target the sim still casts it despite it having a lower damage per execute time than eviscerate. I think this may in part be due to me using deeper daggers and the extra shadow damage only buffing evis. Would be a minor fix but worth knowing for m+ bosses if its worth pressing or not

knotty oriole
#

There may be reasons not to use it but that DPET is mostly just an artifact of Echoing Reprimand rather than the base damage

#

Removing SecTec from that profile APL isn't a DPS gain so

noble pendant
knotty oriole
#

Also Finality

#

yeah

#

Not that SecTec is particularly good here either but...

sharp orchid
#

When I select the talent Internal Bleeding and sim my character, the APL does not show me a kidney shot. Is this a bug, or why is it like that?

noble pendant
#

You can’t kidney bosses

sharp orchid
#

OK, it's clear that the stun doesn't work. But the bleeding effect is not transferred to the boss?

noble pendant
#

Correct

#

If you don’t stun, you don’t bleed

sharp orchid
#

okay, thanks for the quick explanation 😄

Then this talent is a PvP only talent 😉

noble pendant
#

(That’s putting aside the question of internal bleeding in pve even being worth casting over an envenom in the first place, which is probably isn’t)

noble pendant
sharp orchid
#

@noble pendant Thank you very much, that answers a lot for me 😉

wet mountain
#

Anyone using SimC with linux?

regal agate
wet mountain
#

@regal agate It seems that Wine works well. What would be the advantage of building it with Docker?

regal agate
wet mountain
#

@regal agate I understand but I don't see the advantages of building it when I literally downloaded and clicked on the exe with Wine and it worked.

#

I do not have a lot of technical knowledge in this field, so I'm asking if there are any downsides on using SimC with Wine

#

Given that it's so easy to install and use

regal agate
#

wine is a compatibility layer so you might run into limitations or compatibility issues due to that.
The downside is that you don't run the application natively.

wet mountain
#

I found that changing the priority of BtE when TTD is >5 instead of >3 would increase ~20 dps

#

Is it a significant finding ? How much DPS change do you guys usually need to find in order to push a change?

knotty oriole
#

I would need to actually see a sim for that. Because when this change was put in, I ran every number from 1 to 8 seconds and the current number was chosen as the lowest number that made any notable difference.

wet mountain
#

What's the best way to share a local SimC ?

noble pendant
#

you can save sims as an html

#

but why are you using a local simc over raidbots

wet mountain
#

Not having to queue, easier to change APLs

rocky mist
#

more question than research (I hope that's alright?): How exactly do sims take Roll the Bones and CTO into account? Do they go through every combination each time(which seems impossible)? Filter out combinations based on probability? Something else entirely?

noble pendant
#

when it casts rtb, it will give the player a buff just like casting rtb would give you a buff in game

noble pendant
rocky mist
#

Yeah, but when I roll Broadside ingame but roll Grand Melee in the sim the DPS is different, is it not?

noble pendant
#

how does that impact anything

#

simulations run literally thousands of iterations

#

to be accurate

warped grove
#

Sims don't work on probabilities, they take a bunch of scenarios and give you the average or smthing

rocky mist
#

that's what I'm asking, so I guess every buff is taken into account in total?

knotty oriole
#

Sims run multiple fight iterations until the error margin is statistically stable. You can view this working through all the combinations in a dynamic way as they would present themselves in a real-world situation.

noble pendant
#

^

rocky mist
#

Okay, thank you. That answers the question

wet mountain
#

@rocky mist because the buffs have a uniform distribution, when you run the simulation A LOT of times, the average dps of all the sims would be a accurate metric that take into account RNG

knotty oriole
#

fwiw I am seeing no difference between different values on my profile

#

3-5s are all within error margin

wet mountain
#

T26 profile

noble pendant
#

you simmed them in separate sims?

knotty oriole
#

Problem is your error margin there is 17.0 / 0.199%
Which means +/- 17 DPS

wet mountain
#

Sorry Whispyr, but this is literally my first time playing with SimC and trying to contribute

knotty oriole
#

So seeing a 20 DPS difference between them is really not provably significant

noble pendant
#

if you use copy="name"

#

and put anything you want changed

wet mountain
#

Where do you find the error margin?

noble pendant
#

under that

#

you can sim multiple things at once

knotty oriole
#

If the difference is within +/- if the DPS error in the report then you need to run at a smaller target error to determine if it is different or not

#

It is at the top of the report

noble pendant
#

right here

wet mountain
#

Ok thanks. So I guess it can be significant when the DPS change > DPS error

knotty oriole
#

My sim with raidbots above was run with lower error

#

~4 DPS (0.05%)

#

And still within error margin

wet mountain
#

Why do I have such huge error?

noble pendant
#

not enough iterations

wet mountain
#

Also, where should I copy="name"?

knotty oriole
#

There is nothing wrong with 0.2% for running things locally in general

#

But you have to consider that when looking at the magnitude of your profile differences

noble pendant
wet mountain
knotty oriole
#

Target Error %

#

Is what you are looking for

wet mountain
noble pendant
#

like lets say your sim is this thing:

rogue="T26_Rogue_Outlaw"
source=default
spec=outlaw
level=60
....
# gear_versatility_rating=736
# gear_armor=606

under that, put copy="name"

#

and then any changes

#

if you want to change the APL, make sure to copy the whole block of apl you're editing

#

or else you're just adding to the list from the previous profile

wet mountain
wet mountain
#

Correct?

noble pendant
#

copy creates a copy

#

and whatever you put under will go into that copy

#

so if you take your current profile,

#

make a copy

#

and then turn the build list for example from the default

#

which is that

#

into just actions.build=sepsis actions.build+=/ghostly_strike

#

then the copy, will only ever cast those 2

#

actions.build=sepsis initializes the build list for that profile

wet mountain
#

but will it run both sims?

noble pendant
#

so you can tinker with it as much as you'd like

wet mountain
#

what's the advantage of that aside of not overwriting original profile?

noble pendant
#

so that you can compare

#

and sim two things at once

wet mountain
#

so I guess it will run both sims

#

ok

#

I tried but it crashed, let me try again lol

noble pendant
#

and you can keep adding copies, over and over and over

#

this was the code from koji's sim for example

#

each one of these is a copy

#

with "kartra" being the default

wet mountain
#

Oh I see

#

but then let's say copy 7s, would it use the same APLs that come after finishers?

noble pendant
#

he only changed the finisher block

#

so that's the only change in there

#

the copy inherited the entire rest of the apl before it

#

but because he specificed actions.finish= again in his copy, he initialized the list for that copy

wet mountain
#

Oh now I see. He did copy= at the end

#

That's why I was confused

#

Ok it worked, thanks

#

Running now with 0.1% error, but it's extremely resource intensive

#

Can barely use discord

noble pendant
#

there's a setting for the process priority

#

if you lower that, it won't actively try and eat your entire cpu

wet mountain
#

btw dungeon slice

#

Where can I see how many iterations it went through with 0.01% error?

knotty oriole
#

At the very top of the report

wet mountain
#

What are some areas that are worth investigating to increase the dps? For example, I don't think I should try different gear because I guess you guys went through many permutations with all the possible gear

knotty oriole
#

If I knew the answer to that question, I would have already investigated it 🤣

wet mountain
#

That's true, that's why I said "areas" and not "things" lol

torn gazelle
#

You kinda have to do something no one has thought of before

wet mountain
#

I see areas like rotations, gear, enchants

#

I guess rotations are the one that has more room of improvement compared to the rest. I guess?

knotty oriole
#

Probably

wet mountain
#

Also, when I make a copy="name", do I have to copy all the category? Ex I'm changing one usage of MfD cooldown. Should I copy also all the other apl in #cooldowns?

#

Apologies for the noob questions

noble pendant
#

yes

#

copy the entire cooldown block

wet mountain
#

thanks

keen kite
#

Hey, is it possible that simc doesn't 'reapply' the opportunity buff if you get it when you already have it? In the sims I did with GS all opportunity buffs get consumed by pistol shot, which I don't think is happening in real situations with AR up if you follow the sims condition of

energy.deficit>(energy.regen+10)

You can see this in action here for example.
this happens quite often when our energy regen is high.
I noticed its not using up oppurtunity when I followed the herorotation suggestions.
I'm pretty sure thats still the correct line because I couldn't really find a improvement of that condition that simmed higher, I just noticed when I compared a few of my Logs with GS that I had more opp proccs than Pistolshots when following herorotation.
so not a find or smth, just a peace of mind thing for me looking over my logs, can someone that has more insights in the inner workings of simc answer that?

civic mango
#

What exactly in all that you just said makes you think that the opportunity buff duration is not being refreshed?

keen kite
#

its getting refreshed probably but not reapplied which means I had 45 opportunity buffs and then used 45 pistol shots for example. But in reality I had lets say 5 buffs that just refreshed some of these 45 ones

lean talon
#

i made an APL that does nothing but cast sinister strike

keen kite
#

okay, but wouldn't that mean that simc uses up every single procc before a new one would override it?

noble pendant
#

yes, 45 opp procs, 45 pistol shots, and it's overflowing 7

#

so 7 procs are overridden

keen kite
#

ah thats what I was looking for, well thanks for claryfing where to find them

noble pendant
#

pleasure

heady lagoon
#

anybody knows is it possible to sim for other covenant abilities ? i noticed when i sim for different soulbinds it is still using my current covenant ability

regal agate
#

you can add any soulbind/covenant/conduit by changing them in your input.
the syntax goes as following:

soulbind=name_of_soulbind/conduit:rank/...```
heady lagoon
#

ah , i just changed the covanent name and it didn't work. Thanks

noble pendant
#

top gear with unlocked soulbinds will naturally change your covenant as well

#

as a built in feature

heady lagoon
#

great no problem then , i looked at the full html report and assumed it wasn't changing. But i guess it doesn't give details about the highest dps sim which is a different covenant.

wet mountain
#

anyone here is working on outlaw wowanalyzer profile?

#

if yes, is there anything I can help you guys with?

lean talon
wet mountain
#

Thanks

lost echo
#

Ran a sim with Darkvein Trinket and the sequence table has the buff going from 5 stacks to 2 in one gcd, probably has a minimal impact but generally in game it takes like 2 gcd's per stack

#

again it probably has almost no impact on sims but thought i'd mention it

#

might have a bloated interaction with MA? It scales with symbols damage last i tested but idk if it scales with sin MA/leggo MA

#

since you wouldn't be able to fit all of the hits within the crit window

knotty oriole
#

I don't usually work on too much trinket stuff but I can mention it

raw thicket
#

So question. Using Quicksim with Raidbot. When I change the weapon oil under the sim options, from SimC default to like double Shadowcore oil. Instant Poison still shows up under Damage Breakdown. What am I doing wrong?

lean talon
#

you can use poisons and oils/sharpening stones

raw thicket
#

At the same time. #Mindblown. I been away from retail too long. I blame Classic. Thank you!

noble pendant
#

not really a theorycrafting question btw ;)

lost echo
#

another thing btw, swapping my trinket1 and trinket2 changes where they're casted in the apl and changes the sim dps, is this intentional?
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/3AVVAqb527u2W1FC7D2JBm/simc : Shattered Psyche casted first/trinket1
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/7X9W6rM1gN1A7FK6fk3Fg/simc : Skulking Predator casted first/trinket1
I could see a world where this is meant to tell you which to use first but I could also see a world where it causes varied sims that confuse people

Raidbots
Raidbots
Raidbots
Raidbots
#

just thought i'd bring it up

noble pendant
#

yes, that is intentional

#

double on use trinkets are cast top to bottom

#

so trinket 1 will cast, incur the cooldown on 2, and if you swap, it'll be the other way around

#

usually it's whatever, because the difference is minimal, and top gear will sorta handle it on its own

lost echo
#

okay cool cool

noble pendant
#

7 dps in that sim is about 0.1%, which is usually close to, or in margin

lost echo
#

i see a 23 dps difference, but point taken

noble pendant
#

u right

#

that's actually quite a bit

wet mountain
#

anyone looked up on how to maximize trinket potential with MA?

#

I guess keeping skulker's wing for the MA window has a lot of potential

#

but I wanted to know if someone already researched about it

civic mango
#

I would guess that it has a 2/(your crit chance)*(% damage share the trinket has with normal use) amount of gain to hold it for MA assuming you don't lose any casts

lean talon
#

The APL holds trinkets for MA.

wet mountain
#

I didn’t see anything in tc-updates : how was BR overestimating dps in aoe ? What was the issue?

lean talon
#

it DOES hold trinkets for MA

#

the issue of BR was that it was both dealing 100% of its damage as blade rush damage aswell as 40% as blade flurry damage to off-targets

junior sedge
#

Should you be going for Ring or Bracers for MA? Have both with Crit/Vers or should a make new one with haste/vers?

mystic jolt
#

That would be a question better suited for one of the spec channels

junior sedge
#

Oh my badf

willow knoll
#

We need to keep this channel to actual tc stuff, not just spec questions

knotty oriole
#

@lost echo I was able to find the issues with the Darkvein trinket and it should be fixed in the next build

lost echo
#

😄

#

thx for lettin me know

#

was it rogue specific or was it for everyone?

knotty oriole
#

Everyone

#

Wordup had also mentioned it for Shaman so I took a look

tough hornet
#

i know dungeonslice sim does restealth in between packs. does it account for full energy regen in between packs (aka out of combat time)?

noble pendant
#

I believe so

severe spindle
#

Is there a list of enchant id's anywhere - im trying to manually type in a sinful revelation enchant and i cant find the id?

noble pendant
#

alternatively, gear compare usually is sufficient for purposes like that, or if you really need the enchant manually, you could top gear/gear compare a weapon with that enchant, and then take the enchant_id line from that

severe spindle
noble pendant
#

that sounds very doable through top gear

#

you can force new enchants in the consumable section, and then after the sim is done, say you want to use droptimizer or something of the like, hitting these three buttons brings up a menu to import that combination into (from left to right), top gear, droptimizer, quick sim, stat weights, or copy it entirely

📎 unknown.png
severe spindle
#

oh shit, i didnt know that was something you can do, thanks!

civic mango
lean talon
west prism
#

Isnt it a bit weird that the first encounter is a boss

boreal patrol
#

It's a convenience thing for cooldowns. Instead of cluddering the APL with attempts of synching cooldowns with bosses it makes sense to just swap the order and do boss first.

west prism
#

Well its not always perfectly synced in m+ either and often you lust trash, so it can be a bit misleading

knotty oriole
#

People lust bosses like 99.99% of the time 😛

#

But as Mystler said, generally speaking people structure pulls so CDs are available for bosses, it just makes more sense to do the boss fist from an APL structuring point of view

#

It is meant to be a generalistic approximation, and doing it this way approximates it in the most straightforward way

civic mango
#

I also think people forget the purpose of sims when they criticize the disparities between dungeonslice and a real key. The actual numerical result you get from the simdps outcome is obviously meaningless. And as a result the differences in structure between the sim and reality don't really matter; all you want from the sim profile is a consistent environment to run iterations of multiple gear setups to compare them against each other to make informed gearing decisions in game.

knotty oriole
#

Yes, indeed so. With the iteration-based approach and overlapping add waves+restealths, the goal is to approximate the environment in a way that allows weighting of ST vs. AoE things appropriately. It's not intended to be "perfect" nor does it need to be. Especially with target caps how they are now, getting overly specific about implementation doesn't really change the results all that much.

#

It's likely we will take a pass at refreshing the DungeonSlice wave profile at some point in SimC when we have gathered a bunch of dungeon data, but based on my observations so far about SL dungeons I don't really feel like any of those kind of changes would make a big difference for Rogue anyhow.

lean talon
#

i think the only critique i have for dslice is that there is too much of a coming and going of mobs. in those 4 minutes of trash, you fight like 30 mobs or something like that. its not really relevant except for MfD and i guess hammer of genesis/first strike, but in real dungeons you dont have that many mobs coming and going on such a short interval.

civic mango
#

I think restealth intervals are lower than reality by a large enough margin that things like MA and First strike will also be overvalued to some degree. Not sure how big of an impact that actually has on results, though

lean talon
#

my MA uptime in real dungeons is basically the same as in a dslice sim (20%) so i dont think MA is problematic

knotty oriole
#

Yeah restealths is something I've looked at a fair bit and MA uptime seems pretty close to real dungeons for me

civic mango
#

how are you measuring your MA uptime? Logs or combat time only

lean talon
#

details

civic mango
#

(in game)

#

Hm, ok that's encouraging, then

lean talon
#

details only tracks in combat time though

#

so if im stealthed between packs with 100% crit for 30 seconds that isnt counted

knotty oriole
#

iirc you get like 5 mid-pack restealths on average, ignoring the pack after the boss and in precombat

civic mango
#

Yes, I know, that's why I asked

lean talon
knotty oriole
#

5 restealths over 4 minutes of pulls basically

#

Which I don't think is too far off reality

#

I mean especially for Outlaw, we get like

#

Quite a large percentage of our MA from Vanish anyway 😛

lean talon
#

but what i mean with the flow of mobs is that a dslice sim gets 32 MfD uses in 6 minutes which is WAY too many, and i dont even think the problem is that the APL is too good at sniping, its just that so many mobs come and die

knotty oriole
#

I suspect a lot of those are very low duration "emergency" sniping that is inflating the value a bit but I may look into it

#

Could potentially put a line_cooldown on the sniping to prevent unrealistic speeds

lean talon
#

i mean i do "emergency sniping" too and i think im pretty good at utilizing MfD, and in a 38 minute dungeon (22 minutes in combat, damn DoS has a lot of downtime lol) and i had 77 mfd casts

wet mountain
#

Do you guys know if the latest APL follow this logic:

#

Vanish > dispatch > mfd > bte/dispatch > ks - with flurry active and MFD
Vanish > ambush > bf > ks - without flurry active
Vanish > ambush to max cp > dispatch > ks - with flurry active and no MFD

#

(With MA)

civic mango
#

This is really a #outlaw question, but you can easily just look at any aoe sim that uses killing spree and see how it uses it

wet mountain
#

@civic mango When I asked there, they told me they do not know how SimC works.

willow knoll
#

Lol

#

I said specifically "idk what the apl does you can check yourself" not that "idk how simc works"

#

These sorts of questions should stick to outlaw, tc research isn't a channel to ask questions like this. It's getting spammed with way too much stuff like this

lean talon
#

something weird is going on with Phial of Putrefaction and its not just applying the buff to you every 5 seconds like the tooltip suggests. I tried finding out what it is but i have no clue if its hasted or just bugged or i dont know.

📎 unknown.png
#

in the simc spell data its min 5 seconds too, so it seems to me like it undersims

📎 unknown.png
#

i see it proc twice in less than 2 seconds sometimes even in logs

knotty oriole
#

Since the buff is hidden it's hard to say for sure. I think it being hasted would be odd but certainly likely based on those logs.

#

Although considering it basically sims as the best trinket atm I don't think it's leading anyone astray by slightly undersimming 😛

#

Also looks like it rarely can simultaneously proc, but who knows what conditions lead to that since it seems pretty rare

#

It's certainly not just because of simultaneous hits since Blade Flurry appears to proc it and that would always trigger it if that was the case (but doesn't)
Probably some form of aura lag I guess

#

Only happened one time in that log

#

But I dunno, during lust on the same set of logs

#

So no idea tbh

#

I would wager it just randomly doesn't get consumed sometimes more likely than being hasted

#

Most logs seem pretty universal at 5s intervals

#

But it's so hard to say

#

Would need something more controlled than a raid log probably

thorny fog
#

my best bet is server response time and packet sending if autos/some abilities overlap in some way

#

would need huge sample data for it to really check in a real enviroment sadly

frank junco
#

If Flagellation change as in ptr (1hit-%100 ap) . wouldn't it be very strong with Lashing Scars conduit (extra 2 additional hit and deal %50 increased damage)

lean talon
#

another addendum to Phial of Putrefaction being better than it sims. It snapshots your stats (crit atleast, probably all stats) when you apply the first stack of it. this means opening with MA always gives you 100% crit on the targets you apply the poisons to within the first 4 seconds. Should probably also work with haste and vers but i havent tested it.

@maiden cargo this might also be why celerity didnt increase the damage of the trinket when i tested it, should probably test it with other trinkets again

📎 World_Of_Warcraft_-_Retail_2021.02.10_-_17.14.21.04_Trim.mp4
knotty oriole
#

That is... very odd

narrow light
#

Is there any sim comparing the usage of Vanish > ambush vs vanish > dispatch for CTO procs?

Considering sometimes the vanish > ambush combo bugs out due to stance bar delay, it might be viable (?)

noble pendant
knotty oriole
#

Dispatch is already used for CtO in a number of cases

narrow light
#

Out of opening I'm testing vanish > dispatch in some cases, but I don't know if it is solid

#

Gonna try to edit apl when I get home

plain coral
#

Anyone here to help me add a pre-combat trinket usage

#

? I keep getting the same error "Action 'use_items': Can only add harmful action with travel or cast-time to precombat action list."

grave wharf
#

That error sounds pretty self-explanatory, which trinket are you trying to precast?

plain coral
#

iqd

#

I had the same error when trying to add pre combat Memory trinket

#

Can I just override a buff of something ?

grave wharf
#

I think unique effect trinkets that can be used pre-pull without aggroing need to be specifically flagged non-harmful in their implementation, but Mystler or Koji probably need to take a look

plain coral
#

oh ok

noble pendant
#

Zoldyck is currently not affecting bone spike in execute range in sims. Not a huge change, but should bring necro up a little bit for sin. Here's a sim showing dashing vs zold, and bonespike doing equal damage: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/fHor3VNnYuHQDQBXKAC1D7/simc

Comparing to a random heroic log of a necro sin rogue: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/6GdmJpvkTPnVa9NM#fight=5&type=damage-done&source=14 it's easy to see that sbs is getting buffed in execute range.

Thanks to @ornate thorn for bringing it up

ornate thorn
#

okay cool

knotty oriole
#

Zoldyck sim logic uses the Mastery whitelist to figure out what should apply

#

So technically this will get automatically fixed for PTR as they have added Bone Spike to Mastery

#

But will look to see if we can do something temp

#

(There is no spell data related to Zoldyck so unfortunately this has to be done via other means)

noble pendant
#

Next thing to annoy koji with. I haven't looked too deeply into it, but there's a line to CT in single target. I took a glance with a variety of talent setups here, and imo there should be at least a tweak to the line (these sims are done with my own character in this case, no bis list nonsense): https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/5KvBDu9fodpdd9UJoEad6P

Kind of a mess to read since I shoved them into one big sim, but the TLDR is that it's either a gain, or neutral when running with any vigor setup. Maybe a check for MFD talented? Idk how deep the rabbit hole goes on this with up/down/neutrals. It just feels like it's hurting more setups than it's helping

#

(Side note please buff envenom why is this even a thing that needs to be considered on single target)

knotty oriole
#

Seems like this may need some more specific comparisons to isolate what’s going on in terms of the actual determining factor since Vigor shouldn’t impact it really at all.

noble pendant
#

yeah, I tried to look at it a little closer, but my brain melts trying to understand the variables at play

knotty oriole
#

It’s really just a dpe issue between Envenom and CT

noble pendant
#

yeah, that's why I was thinking EP

#

but then when I checked EP combinations, MFD combos were doing better than vigor setups across the board

knotty oriole
#

Could have more to do with like Shiv usage than anything

#

Was always more borderline with TB than Exsang

noble pendant
#

there's a check for shiv already built in

knotty oriole
#

Sure but that could be part of the problem since Shiv isn’t exactly the same as TB

#

Most of these differences are very small. Could just be some timing issue

noble pendant
#

with the difference in dpe being so small, makes sense that the difference in sim is small too

#

but pulling it into dungeonslice

#

it's neutral for MFD, and 0.6% for vigor

#

unless I've done something wrong

#

which is super weird to me

knotty oriole
#

Well that would further indicate to me a timing or TTD issue

noble pendant
#

correct

plain coral
#

@knotty oriole after testing on PTR it appears SBS doesn't scale on mastery anymore. I was able to clearly witness damage modification when switch rings with or without versa.
But going from no Ring to 150 mastery ring did not change any of the damage, even after refreshing

#

might have been fixed or is WIP

#

I personnally believe Sep and SBS should scale with mastery while being tuned so it doesn't go out of control.

stiff ingot
noble pendant
#

external_buffs.name=“x/x/x”

Would be how you would apply that. I’m fairly sure that’s a ptr change though, so you would need to get the newest branch of simcraft, since Raidbots wouldn’t be updated until the patch goes live

stiff ingot
#

Ya it’s the ptr thing thx

noble pendant
#

I would suggest asking the warrior discord on the actual implementation currently instead of here

stiff ingot
#

Ya that’s tru

#

Thank u 🙏

knotty oriole
#

@plain coral so I looked into this some more

#

Seems like whoever did the spell data change made an oopsie

#

They only added it to the family flags of the direct modifier on Mastery

#

Not also the periodic modifier on Mastery

#

So even though the DoT spell is in the whitelist, it's only on the direct damage affecting aura

#

So I think it's fair to say it was probably their intent that Mastery should affect it, it's just that they implemented it incorrectly

maiden cargo
knotty oriole
plain coral
#

My big questionmark is : Does Doomblade actually synergyze with Zoldyk. Because if it does, and if at some SBS is flagged to work as well with both Mastery and Zoldyck. I can bet you that Necrolord Rogue will have some very strong execute niche

knotty oriole
#

Yeah no idea about that until a point where we can use both at the same time. Since Zoldyk is all server-side script magic, can't really say what would and wouldn't work with it

knotty oriole
noble pendant
#

is it removing CT entirely?

knotty oriole
#

Adding a pooling condition to the ST CT line seems to be more effective by the looks of it compared to adjusting the TTD or removal

#

Same energy condition as Envenom

#

energy.deficit<=25+variable.energy_regen_combined

noble pendant
#

so still CT on 1 target sadge

knotty oriole
#

It's +0.4% for 2210023 vs. +0.2% for removal

#

for example

#

It's much lower CT casts because there are more Shiv overlaps

noble pendant
#

well, I'll accept that I guess :P

knotty oriole
#

9.7 casts for 5m PW vs. 17.9

#

I actually think it's not really DPET related, I noticed some slight skews with EP uptime

#

Was losing like 2% EP uptime

#

Which I guess makes sense given the low energy regen levels

noble pendant
#

yeah, it still just feels so wrong

knotty oriole
#

I mean technically it's still only like +0.2-0.3% or something so

#

Not like dropping it is particularly negative

#

Mostly just wanted to address any losses

noble pendant
#

yep, thanks for looking into it

orchid flame
#

hey all. observation to share that i don't think is limited to rogues but thought i'd start here. i recently switched to NF and have run a few dungeons with first strike. i noticed that my first strike (FS) uptimes are far lower (less than half) of what the sim tells me the uptime should be. i understand there are many factors that can influence that IRL, but based on rough napkin math, I'm wondering if maybe simc is inflating FS uptime across the board. ex: simc tells me uptime of around 23%, but based on the breakdown of dungeon slice fights, i napkin out that it should be somewhere around 14%.

noble pendant
#

there's a lot of reasons why that could be

orchid flame
#

aye, i can imagine many. just wanted to see how it's calculated in the sims. make sure it's not doing something crazy, like being double counted every pack, or not properly triggering on all mobs when using BF, etc.

#

it may very well be implemented perfectly

knotty oriole
#

I dunno, I had an uptime of around 20% on my SD 15 run last night that I logged

#

And 24.8% on Plaguefall

#

So I'm not really seeing anything that would cause any concern to me

orchid flame
#

k

noble pendant
#

I'll list some out, be aware that it could be any of these, but most likely is a combination of them:

  1. rotational difference between the sim/you causing an extra second or two of buff uptime sometimes
  2. how long packs last (if you have 5 seconds of FS uptime on a pack that lasts 20 seconds, that's a lot higher % than a pack that lasts 100 seconds)
  3. amount of packs compared to boss. the dungeonslice boss is a third of the simulation roughly, but if you're pulling big between bosses, you have less uptime naturally (getting 5 seconds on 10 mobs at once is lower than getting 5 seconds, on 10 mobs, but 3 at a time)
knotty oriole
#

From my PF

#

Much lower on a dungeon like DoS since literally half the time in the dungeon is spent running lol

#

Problem with looking at logged numbers is that they don't exclude out of combat time so it's hard to say on dungeons with a lot of running or intermission time (say angels in SoA)

orchid flame
#

right, so then i took sim vs sim napkin math and it also felt off

#

ex: say the sim is comprised of 8 fights, 5 second uptime for each (simplifying here), that's 40 seconds of an X duration sim

knotty oriole
#

Average duration per trigger is basically always higher than 5s though

#

On packs

#

Unless you are opening with an AoE attack, you're looking at 6s minimum

#

(Which is a 20% difference, so that's non-trivial)

#

And things can get offset even more when caster mobs are involved or any split pack

#

Like got a 9s duration on the first pull of SoA I did this week

#

Duration on average will be 6s minimum for packs, and probably like 6-8s on average

#

Since none of the Rogue specs open with AoE, it's safe to at least assume 6s though.

orchid flame
#

ok. still, napkin math comes out 5-8% lower uptime than what sim results show me but i'll just chalk it up to being the most efficient it can with uptime.

knotty oriole
#

It's 8 stealths (initial + 7 restealths) but not 8 pulls. There are non-stealthed offset waves in DSlice to account for some chain pulls, as a full restealth rate is unrealistic.

orchid flame
#

stealths don't come into play, right? it's purely encounter count

noble pendant
#

Yes

orchid flame
#

like, you don't need stealth to trigger it. if you have N encounters, and an estimated Y duration, it's just N*Y

#

anyway, sounds like it's working as intended/expected!

knotty oriole
#

Anyway comparing logs to sims is tricky because of downtime as sims have minimal downtime compared to some dungeons. On dungeons with chain-pulls, it seems pretty close. On more spread out dungeons, it will be less. Just depends on how fast you are pulling at the end of the day.

orchid flame
#

yeah, i follow that, which is why i abandon comparing actual runs vs sims and just went straight to sims vs math.

#

i just must not be accounting for something, or perhaps it's more like 7s sim duration instead of 6, etc

knotty oriole
#

I believe the one odd exception/caveat in-game is that Pride does not trigger First Strike correctly, but I don't really think that is relevant for most keys as most people slow-roll prides without CDs anyway

regal agate
#

The spell data overrides for the legendary changes (if i did no mistake):

#Rotten
override.spell_data=effect.872743.base_value=50
#Deathly shadows
override.spell_data=effect.841452.base_value=20
override.spell_data=spell.341202.duration=15000
#bloodfang
override.spell_data=effect.840280.ap_coefficient=0.1235
#greenskin
override.spell_data=effect.840586.base_value=300
#guile
override.spell_data=effect.840596.base_value=5
override.spell_data=effect.840597.base_value=10
override.spell_data=effect.840598.base_value=15
#tiny toxic blade
override.spell_data=effect.839725.base_value=500
#doomblade
override.spell_data=effect.839729.base_value=45
#duskwalker
override.spell_data=effect.840325.base_value=30
merry cloud
maiden cargo
#

@regal agate Guile has three buffs that activate over time, they were originally 3%, 6%, 10% damage but now are 5%, 10%, and 15%

override.spell_data=effect.840597.base_value=10
override.spell_data=effect.840598.base_value=15```
regal agate
#

ah, thanks, i seemingly missed those (updated the original post)

regal agate
merry cloud
#

I mean I put it to have ridiculously low cooldown with 1 second cdr per 1 energy

regal agate
#

maybe i made a mistake in the spell data overwrite

merry cloud
#

I don't think you did, I checked effect id

#

you can see in report it changes dusk effect#2

#

I checked code and it does use that effect base value but overriding it doesn't seem to do anything

knotty oriole
#

You need the newest version of code to handle a more aggressive value

#

Due to batching

maiden cargo
#

i think ambush_condition is not ensuring the actor gets to max cp as it is intended

#

made vanish only be used at ambush_condition for the sake of testing and kept seeing this

Capture.PNG
maiden cargo
#

well i now realize that ambush_condition is not supposed to ensure that you get to max cp

plain coral
#

Hello ! I think I finally find a way to do a proper Vendetta + Sepsis sync in the APL.
The idea is intuitive : Delay one cast of either Vendetta or Sepsis so they sync without loosing any casts of Vend/Sep. The sync is made at the end of the sim rather than at the start to account for Zoldyck bonus but the change is a gain even without legendary.

So I changed both Vendetta and Sepsis lines this way :
_For Sepsis :
actions.dot+="/sepsis,if=fight_remains>100|fight_remains-10<cooldown.vendetta.remains|cooldown.vendetta.remains<2|debuff.vendetta.up"
_For Vendetta :
actions.cds+="/vendetta,if=!stealthed.rogue&dot.rupture.ticking&!debuff.vendetta.up&variable.vendetta_nightstalker_condition&(!covenant.night_fae|fight_remains-15<cooldown.sepsis.remains|dot.sepsis.remains|fight_remains>125)"
I tested the range for cooldown.vendetta.remains<x from 2 to 10 and 5 was slighy better than 2 in some case. Not relevant gain tho.
I did not check every value for fight_remains-X<cooldown.sepsis.remains tho. Maybe there is a better one.

I tested this change over a wide range of fight lenght (with combat_vary_lenght peepoyes ) from 100s to 380s and it show a win in every single sims, with a solid >0.5% over all the 140s-300s range

Below 300s and 180s sims.
https://i.imgur.com/HVAmdYr.png
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/svBgkq1D7J1iDJYBGwbs2M
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/kaHDLz7erikacLurSqJmFR

Imgur
Raidbots
Advanced Sim - 6,575 DPS - Raidbots
Raidbots
Advanced Sim - 6,931 DPS - Raidbots
#

Ps: I also tried to sync Vanish with Vendetta as well because it is naturally desynced in iterations where Vendetta is delayed. Does not seems to show any particular loss but the gain is marginal at best (0.1%)

#

But I wasn't able to do the Vanish sync I wanted to do (Casting empowered garrote before Seps rather than during Vendetta)

#

Oh and I think there is also a marginal win to catch by delaying these last Sep+Vend by a few second to have Seps inside Shiv as well, but I was not able to implement it the way I wanted to without breaking everything 😦

knotty oriole
#

Sounds interesting. Was looking into some similar stuff last night and will test your changes today!

plain coral
#

Very nice thank you !

knotty oriole
#

I was seeing some fairly straightforward gains at most fight lengths and DS (due to refund desyncs) just changing

#

actions.dot+=/sepsis,if=debuff.shiv.up|debuff.vendetta.up|cooldown.shiv.remains<2

plain coral
#

That's interesting. I'm conviced that there are improvement regarding shiv and sep syncing as well but I was not able to find something good

knotty oriole
#

I’m guessing this may not work fully well with Duskwalkers without some changes?

plain coral
#

I don't know, but this night I quickly tested without legendary and it was working good at least on 300s sims

#

Oh you duskwalker sorry

#

yes for sure

#

but Duskwalker naturally sync Vendetta and Sepsis

#

Oh well ... in 9.0 at least xD

#

I think Duskwalker in 9.0.5 should give Vendetta 60 to 75 cooldown so it will probably be another nightmare to sync

knotty oriole
#

Yeah it’s around 60ish

plain coral
#

But the win is also double diping from both a buff to Sepsis damage and a sync to Niya's Grove_Invigoration buff, so it might be easier to Sync at least Grove

knotty oriole
#

Less concerned about it for live CD numbers since the patch will be soon

#

And nobody uses it atm

#

But probably will want to support the updated numbers on PTR at least

plain coral
#

Idk if it will be as effective with Duskwalker. But with such short cooldown it will be hard to find a case where you want to delay Vendetta without loosing a cast

#

Delaying Sep in case where you don't loose cast will probably always be good anyway

#

Oh and btw the sync might also be good for Venthyr as well

#

should probably work the same way

knotty oriole
#

Well maybe need to just check the runeforge and skip that criteria. Hard to say.

#

Just wanted to keep it in mind since that legendary was performing a lot better with the updates

plain coral
#

Yeah I'd like to do tests on PTR but unfortunately it's not possible actually test legendaries because I don't have theim 😭

#

Duskwalker feels good but assuming fuu's sims it's still a bit behind others ? or it just a question of optimisation idk. But this legendary will deffo find it's niche in real raid encounter

raw knoll
knotty oriole
#

Wait what?

#

Since when? lol

amber ember
#

apparently there are two npcs in oribos, imma try it out

plain coral
#

NICE they listened !

#

I make a report saying "I don't understand there is a bug : I can't find the legendary vendor"

#

xD

boreal patrol
#

Since people are curious about it in spec channels, here some single target preview top combination sims for 9.0.5 with Flrgrrlation and Lashing Scars implemented as it seems to work so far. Centralizing for all specs here.

#

Outlaw

unknown.png
#

Likely there's further tuning to be expected as Lashing Scars is easily the best conduit for all (Venthyr) specs (except Count the Odds which is just a top dog no matter what).

BIG disclaimer: This is just random ballpark sims using SimC default profiles. APL improvement might be out there. We may have missed hidden changes or bugs. Things can an will continue to change with PTR iteration. Also Doomblade is currently really buggy and underperforming in the game, which is not accounted for in the sims. For simple discussion, hype, or doomsaying, please use the spec channels.

plain coral
#

@knotty oriole are you here dude ?

#

I think you maybe incorrectly indentified the Doomblade bug. I don't think it's not about not scaling on the full mutilate ... but rather that it is reduced by armor

#

twice actually (once on the mutilate, once on the dot)

knotty oriole
#

I think Lorentz hypothesized about the armor

#

But I don't think we were able to fully match up anything in particular there either

#

I think the damage is broken enough that just posting how broken it is to Blizzard is probably good enough.

#

😄

#

Since it's off by a rather significant factor

plain coral
#

yeah

#

if it was the main hand mutilate thing, the 2nd dot should have done maybe more damage (~220 rather than 192)

west prism
#

2% for me on ST and 4% on aoe

#

hardly the advertised 4%+ for ST

knotty oriole
#

I think we did identify it wasn't ignoring the OH but more it's a calculation problem

#

As to if that's armor or the 4th tick magically disappearing, who knows

knotty oriole
plain coral
#

you think it should tick 4 time over 8sec ?

west prism
#

Has anyone logged bloodfang

plain coral
#

would make sense

#

wait lemme math it

knotty oriole
plain coral
#

but the tooltip still show incorect damage

knotty oriole
#

Yes the tooltip was always kinda fubar lol

plain coral
#

if it was a tick missing it should match the tooltip info

knotty oriole
#

The buff duration was always bugged

#

And showed a smaller amount

#

But there was a 4th tick on the server

#

At 12s

#

Don't ask me why 😄

plain coral
#

kk

knotty oriole
#

Funny Ignite things

#

I guess

plain coral
#

well it seems to "work like plague"

#

but it's wierd

#

like if I just go there and hit the dummy with mutilate once the tooltip will show like 200 dmg

#

and if I start hitting the dummy harder like normal rotation, the tooltip increase

#

up to like 1200+

#

even bugged it's actually pumping

#

Oh and yeah that's another story ! Different dummy show different variation xD

#

it deal ~92% of the tooltip damage while it's more like 70% on lvl 60 dummy

knotty oriole
#

Could indicate it being armor-related yeah

#

Feel free to add the comments to the bug report if you want to 🙂

plain coral
#

Blizz is looking at it ?

knotty oriole
#

Apparently

plain coral
#

For now I was primarly focused on understanding the mecanics of the dots

#

it is deffinitely ramping up

knotty oriole
#

Yes I mean it is definitely an "ignite" style mechanic

#

Where it ramps pending damage

plain coral
#

yeah but works wierd

#

because if I get double crit the tooltip show big damage, but if I override it

#

it doesn't to the full "big damage"

#

see what I mean ?

#

it override the big dot, just like if not hitting mutilate after a double crit Mutilate would be somehow optimal

knotty oriole
#

It should just roll the pending damage, minus the tick damage into the new one

#

That's how it worked on beta anyway

plain coral
#

well it's probably how it is intended to work and that would make sense considering it can't crit, is not hasted etc...

#

like it's not regular dot

#

but look

#

if it was working as a "ignite" style, the 3rd tick should be higher than the last 2 one

#

here I just added a mutilate after 2 ticks has already passed

#

or maybe it just recalculate the value idk ...

#

yeah ok I'm stupid. It works as intended. It just recalculate the value everytime. On that screenshot the last "missing" tick from 1st mutilate is just split between the 3 remaning ticks.

#

numbers match. (6x106000 = 2x106000+3x142000)

plain coral
#

hahaha I think I found out, not only Mutilated Flesh is reduced by armor, it reduced by armor twice.

#

numbers match xD

knotty oriole
#

Nice

plain coral
#

is there a way to know how much armor exactly have mobs at lvl 60 ?

#

I'm just calculating it with basic maths but feels wierd

#

HAHAHAHA I think I discovered another bug

#

It's not Mutilated flesh which is reduced by armor twice .... it's Mutilate which is incorrectly educed by armor

#

every single ability that I tested show a damage reduction of ~30% from armor. Tested Shiv / Ambush / Shadowstrike / Backstab. They all show a variation from 29% to 31% compare to the tooltip number.

#

But Mutilate only show ~17% damage reduction

#

AND mutilate flesh also show a ~30% dmg reduction from armor.

#

The most fun about it is that sqrt(0.7) = 0.83

#

so that ... unless it's incredibly lucky, makes me believe that the damage reduction from armor to mutilate is square rooted

slate canopy
plain coral
#

I don't think it's bug

#

looks like it's intended

#

I don't see how it is possible for Mutilate to only take sqrt(armor reduction) unless someone explicitly wrote it in the code

knotty oriole
#

I don't really think there is anything odd with Mutilate

#

I think it's more just how the tooltip is formulated

plain coral
#

but why would the tooltip include armor reduction in it

#

idk it's wierd why would mutilate have a effective / tooltip value different that all other spell, when all other spells have the same ratio (~30% damage reduction on the target I'm testing)

#

make no sense

#

I'm 90% sure that Mutilate only take sqrt(armor multiplier) for some reason

#

that's another dummy which have reduced armor for some reason.
1st = Mutilated Flesh
2nd = Ambush
3rd = Shiv
4th = Mutilate

unknown.png
#

it deals MORE damage than the tooltip is showing

#

so it's not sqrt but there is something odd

knotty oriole
#

I wouldn't really trust the tooltip at all

#

It's adding two s values together from different spells plus the OH modifier

#

I would look at the AP coefficient it's supposed to do and compare it to other abilities

plain coral
#

I fugred out for this one, the dummy just have ... something in it that make it takes 24% additionnal damage

#

mmmh I can try that

#

but for the number I linked you, if you just divide theim by 1.24 you get the same value I had on the 1st dummy. So it show a basic 24% damage amp just like the dummy had a hidden buff or something

warped grove
#

is it a different level dummy?

plain coral
#

lvl 60 dummy vs "raider training dummy" world boss at boralus

#

but every single other dummy

#

lvl 60 dummy at boralus, boss dumy at SW, dummy in Necrolord hall

#

they all show 30% difference between tooltip and effective damage

#

so I just assume this dummy is a black sheep

#

AP = agility right

#

so I can compute Mutilate myself

#

with the formula

#

The tooltip seems to be correct unless I forgot something :
I have 1369agi and 25.92% versatility.

Wowhead said it's (35% AP) + (35% AP)*0.5
So 1369*1.5*0.35*1.26*1.51 = 1366.57 that last 1.51 being our damage aura and the tooltip show 1368

knotty oriole
#

I don't really see anything wrong here with comparing the OH hit with Shiv damage

#

One is 50% AP the other is 35%, 0.7 ratio... 0.7x627 = 438.9

#

So seems totally fine

plain coral
#

then I'm missing something, because wowhead tells me off hand is supposed to be only 0.5*35 = 17.5% AP

knotty oriole
#

yeah but Shiv is an OH ability too

plain coral
#

so it's divided by 2 right ?

#

I'm missing something then in my calculation

#

but why does it match Mutilate and not Shiv everything else

#

because the formula I wrote earlier is litterally matching Mutilate tooltip, but not matching any other spell in the game

#

I guess what I'm missing is also what is missing in this Mutilate tooltip haha

#

Ok it's weapon damage

#

most likely

#

I thought weapon damage were just converted into AP since BFA

knotty oriole
#

It is indirectly but it's not in the AP tooltip

plain coral
#

It still does not resolve the issue I have with my calculation matching mutilate tooltip. edit : probably just an unlucky coincidence.

#

The tooltip is just wrong fuck it I give up

#

xD sorry for the flood

knotty oriole
#

Rule #1 of WoW TCing is "never trust the tooltips" 😄

plain coral
#

I mean if my maths would not have match the tooltip

#

I wouldn't have thinking about it too much

#

really unlucky

noble pendant
#

Some flag stuff with an interesting caveat:
As a TLDR, this handles with the sync of flag and vendetta. The lines here are as follows:
actions.cds="flagellation,if=(cooldown.vendetta.remains<=3|debuff.vendetta.up|spell_targets.fan_of_knives>=2)&target.time_to_die>5"
This change seems to easily be a gain in single target: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/de4WmmRR3hVvyv4B6XKbLG
With a wide range of talents: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/eXoZVgUEqehAU4FrfpEKe2
In sustained aoe (with aoe talents): https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/hUQ7rzBAvTAbiDJDPDT5fv
and heavy gains in dungeonslice (more on this later): https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/6njX8TtMHxP1S3PDpf1bo

Currently, and in probably the next 1-2 tiers, that's not a problem. There is however an issue here. These changes do not seem to monkaCough SCALE with gear very well. Comparing the first sim in single target (with ~16%/520 gear haste), to a BiS profile (with ~28%/920 gear haste), brings the gain down from 0.5% to 0.2%, seen here: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/aPkE93uWUqT7ZScJMRb6xW

Adding a boatload more haste again to this profile actually turns the gain into a loss entirely (this one with 44%/1520 gear haste): https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/n7SNhoSUsCrXg97xEuw6Bw

I found the inflection point at around 35-36% gear haste, or 1200 rating, seen here: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/pkDt8iLskGwL9TrHbkuVh5

My best guess currently is that uptime on the buff is more important for some reason. (The APL change lowers the uptime from flag from ~29% to ~23%).

knotty oriole
#

fwiw that's not totally without precedent, we did have some reroll inflection points for Outlaw at N% crit

#

And I added variable support for it into the APL to check

#

Need to find the property again.. one sec

noble pendant
#

The dungeonslice stuff has some more basic snooze logic, as I also added a simple time_to_death check to flag, and vendetta (which was missing it), with success regardless of syncing issues. That alone accounts for a substantial dungeonslice gain for venthyr (this one being a simple target.time_to_die>5 check on flag, and &target.time_to_die>5 tacked onto the end of the vendetta line) : https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/aA9QotsuA6povT8FYS8tGx

knotty oriole
#

raw_haste_pct also works off unbuffed I think if you don't want to make a variable

noble pendant
#

yeah I'll take more of a look at it tomorrow

#

brain melted from all those sims :P

plain coral
#

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/vyRD1A3Jr5aLxbszQj5Pwd
https://i.imgur.com/Se3eq6t.png
This is using the same logic I used for Sepsis with your profile. Could possibly solve the issue of loosing Flag casts that seems to show a loss with truck load of haste (the logic is made so that it sync only if it does not loose flag nor vend casts)

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/6XKpXGznnXvLX3FZJ4H4VK
https://i.imgur.com/BUVyQzj.png
this is with you 1500+ haste input

Syncing Vanish with either Vendetta or Flag with Subter for base profile
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/jPkUkDwxPXCn7R4vwkw2zX
https://i.imgur.com/dLNyEgS.png

And with Truckload of haste
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/5zoNLxvcYTHPFvrD5LN1uV
https://i.imgur.com/UbpuVLX.png

Imgur
Imgur
Imgur
Imgur
plain coral
#

On the 180sec marker it's a massive gain as well (~300s usually delay vendetta without loosing cast rather than Flag, but on 180sec it obviously delay flag on iteration strictly <180s)
https://i.imgur.com/tvNR4XP.png

This might explain the massive win you get in dungeons slice

Imgur
lean talon
#

I found some easy but big optimizations for dreadblades and flagellation for outlaw. I changed the priority of the two abilities so the APL uses them alongside each other. The best outcome specifically comes from using flagellation at max CP, finishing, and then following it up with Dreadblades. I also changed the priority of Adrenalin Rush to be higher than both flagellation and dreadblades which is another small gain. All in all this is a ~ 2% gain for Dreadblades used with flagellation, and makes it even competitive with alacrity on long encounters (5min sim) and actually significantly better than alacrity on shorter encounters (1.6% better, or over 100 dps)

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/peC9PyxYH5GGTRpEF59rg8 (2min patchwerk)
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/fGQoqK7A3Vz6Dnvxm1q2BK (5min patchwerk)
(DB is just the default APL running dreadblades, alac default is the default APL running alacrity)

I think there are possibly a lot more optimizations to be had (im not using any hasted trinkets in the profile, maybe a change in reroll logic for broadside during dreadblades or ensuring the APL doesnt have to reroll or "waste" globals otherwise during the DB/flag window). Im looking into it more, just wanted to post a quick first result.

versed cosmos
plain coral
#

With the Sync discussion we've made earlier and some profile variation around gear it seems like Assa is being close to Feral DPS.

#

yes

#

I expect theim to tune Lashing Scars tho, either during PTR or shortly after patch release. Nothing is final yet.

regal agate
#

lashing seems to be over budget, but just like cto it could possibly end up not tuned.

plain coral
#

The sims looks kinda scary

#

it start being really over tune

#

not gonna complain, that's all we have (damage)

lean talon
knotty oriole
#

Dreadblades has never worked with Flag afaik.

#

The Slaughter tooltip was because Slaughter was a CP generator (since it was just an Ambush clone)

lean talon
#

yea just tested it on ptr now, too. doesnt really matter though since flag > dreadblades makes sense anyways with flag having longer duration and you being able to use it at max cp

knotty oriole
#

I’d really be kinda surprised if Lashing Scars wasn’t nerfed though since it destabilizes what they seem to be going for with the covenant balance. It’s relatively close otherwise.

#

I’d also argue that if Alacrity is still within 0.4% of Dreadblades even in the best case you will still run it since in practical terms Dreadblades is probably not actually usable sometimes due to the HP loss.

cunning sparrow
#

(Why is that even a thing outside of "lore reasons")

knotty oriole
#

But @lean talon @plain coral if you could provide some text diff check links that would be helpful for me to test integration of this stuff since I don’t know what all you changed at a glance.

orchid flame
#

Thanks for all the work on this stuff, everyone.

plain coral
#

@knotty oriole yeah sorry it was same thing that Sepsis actually, I did not even tried to change it

knotty oriole
#

I may send you my CLF sync line from BfA for reference

#

It might work a bit more generically

plain coral
#

So I changed both Vendetta and Flag lines this way :
_For Flag :
actions.dot+="/flagellation,if=fight_remains>100|fight_remains-10<cooldown.vendetta.remains|cooldown.vendetta.remains<2|debuff.vendetta.up"

_For Vendetta :
actions.cds+="/vendetta,if=!stealthed.rogue&dot.rupture.ticking&!debuff.vendetta.up&variable.vendetta_nightstalker_condition&(!covenant.venthyr|fight_remains-15<cooldown.flagellation.remains|buff.flagellation_buff.remains|fight_remains>125)"

lean talon
#

actions.cds+="/adrenaline_rush,if=!buff.adrenaline_rush.up" actions.cds+="/flagellation,if=variable.finish_condition" actions.cds+="/dreadblades,if=!stealthed.all&debuff.flagellation.up&combo_points<=2"

and

actions.cds+="/roll_the_bones,if=buff.dreadblades.remains=0&(buff.roll_the_bones.remains<=3|variable.rtb_reroll)

i just removed the MA condition on rtb since it wasnt relevant for my sim but you would obviously need to add it again. also should probably put something in to make the APL reroll earlier right before DB so it doesnt drop rtb.

plain coral
#

I also changed Vanish Subterfuge line with basic stuff but it was at beast only marginal

actions.vanish+="/vanish,if=talent.subterfuge.enabled&cooldown.garrote.up&(dot.garrote.refreshable|debuff.vendetta.up&dot.garrote.pmultiplier<=1)&combo_points.deficit>=(spell_targets.fan_of_knives>?4)&raid_event.adds.in>12&(buff.flagellation_buff.up|debuff.vendetta.remains)"

knotty oriole
#

Attempt to align Guardian with Vendetta as long as it won't result in losing a full-value cast over the remaining duration of the fight

guardian_of_azeroth,if=cooldown.vendetta.remains<3|debuff.vendetta.up|fight_remains<30
guardian_of_azeroth,if=floor((fight_remains-30)%cooldown)>floor((fight_remains-30-cooldown.vendetta.remains)%cooldown)
@plain coral

#

(Should use fight_remains nowadays rather than target.time_to_die, and the 30s was just due to the duration of CLF)

plain coral
#

That's what boomies are using

#

but I looked a bit into it and realise boomy had a different goal. Their goal wasn't to "prevent a loss of a cast" and rather "have the same amount of Sync while trying to add an additionnal convoke" and I was not able to really make a use of the % operator

#

but if you don't modify the Vendetta line, it will not delay the vendetta as it should do so we have to add this on both Vendetta and Flag ?

#

Oh yes also I remember why I left this way, also because it will try to sync at max at the begining and then fire on CD when it can't be synced anymore. And I wanted it to be synced at the end of the fight to give more value to Zoldyck

knotty oriole
#

Don't think that would be relevant for Flag though

#

But it's hard to say if that is helpful in a general sense

#

Shifting to the end of the fight that is

plain coral
#

Haste is still good for execute but it will not be relevant for Doomblade at all for sure

knotty oriole
#

Same reason way way back in the day that people argued for and against using lust at the start vs. end of fights with damage amps

plain coral
#

haha yeah

#

and they have right at the end

knotty oriole
#

It doesn't always provide a gain because it speeds up the phase

#

vs. speeding up getting to the phase

plain coral
#

yeah exactly

#

Fetid Devourer

knotty oriole
#

So tricky topic 😄

plain coral
#

I need to take another look at Balance thingy but I have to do irl rn 😦

# 
Calculates whether using Convoke now will allow you to still cast the same amount of Convoke+CA/Inc casts```
#

but again as I said, their goal is to keep the same amount of Syncs (even if it cost a convoke cast) while still fiting some additional casts

knotty oriole
#

@lean talon as a note, I think you need to move your ptr=1 higher in your advanced sim

#

Since when I run these profiles locally with PTR forced the default profile you're using is much higher

#

Unless you were intending for that to be a pre-PTR profile

lean talon
#

no it was all supposed to be ptr. i had the ptr=1 right at the top though

knotty oriole
# 
rogue="Vvaughn"
level="60"
race="orc"
region="eu"
server="twisting_nether"
role="attack"
professions="alchemy=175/enchanting=115"
spec="outlaw"
talents="3122122"
ptr="1"
#

Since it's after the creation of the player, think the player gets initialized with ptr=0

#

Think it has to be above the rogue= line

lean talon
#

ooh i didnt know that

noble pendant
# lean talon ooh i didnt know that

If it makes you feel any better, I had that weirdness as well, and my solution was to just put ptr=1 everywhere lul completely unnecessary but doesn't hurt so w/e

versed cosmos
noble pendant
knotty oriole
#

@west prism @lean talon either of you happened to check if the new Flag damage flurries or not?

#

On PTR

west prism
#

I did not, but i can do after raid

knotty oriole
#

@lean talon ok I'm close to finishing up something I can integrate. I had to make some changes due to some significant DSlice losses as well as some oddities with other builds.

#

The downside for your Dreadblades dream is that some of the Flag changes are notable gains for Alacrity builds as well (0.4%)

#

So re-running the different talent combos with the modified APL still seems to have Alacrity quite a bit ahead

#

And Deeper gains a lot with Dreadblades but Venthyr/Alacrity/MfD still ahead when you run that combo by quite a bit

#

MfD 0.3% higher in ST than Deeper with that setup

lean talon
#

wait but so that ptr thing wasnt the issue with my sim? its just that the gains for DB are also gains for alac? lul

knotty oriole
#

Well the ptr thing was an issue in one of your profile comparisons so it was making the base percentages a little wonky

#

But didn't really change too much about the other stuff

#

Anyway ended up with this:

#

flagellation,if=!stealthed.all&(!ptr|variable.finish_condition|target.time_to_die<13)

#

"Dreadblades", "if=!stealthed.all&combo_points<=2&(!covenant.venthyr|debuff.flagellation.up)"

#

Added buff.dreadblades.down check to RtB and ST Killing Spree

lean talon
#

did you try time to die 24? since it takes 24 seconds to get the full benefit of flag right

knotty oriole
#

This is only in the context of the debuff dropping off because the target died

lean talon
#

ooh i see yea

knotty oriole
#

e.g. there is no reason to wait for the finish condition

#

If you are gonna get 100% value anyway

#

That was to help mitigate some of the DungeonSlice losses

#

But yeah this is between a 1% and 0.4% gain depending on the setup

#

So was definitely worth adding in

lean talon
#

yea i tried to make dreadblades better but ended up making alacrity better, too. whatever, gains are gains lul

knotty oriole
#

Basically boiled down to roughly 0.4% gain for Dreadblades by itself, 0.4% gain for Flag by itself and 1% for the combo

#

I tried a few other things and they were pretty neutral

#

Moving the AR and Dreadblades lines around really didn't seem to make any difference, but I moved it anyway since it's just a little more logical that way

lean talon
#

for me it was consistently 10 dps better when i moved AR up

knotty oriole
#

I wasn't able to reproduce that when I was only changing that so not sure

#

Given that it's off-GCD I'm not sure why it would matter

lean talon
#

which isnt a lot but i simmed like 30 things and it was always ~10 dps over the other copy that was identical except for the AR thing

knotty oriole
#

Tested a lot of isolated stuff and tried to narrow some things down. Mostly the finish_condition was the major element

#

The finish_condition by itself was almost all the gain for ST

#

But the other conditions were needed to make it play nice in DungeonSlice

#

Anyway it's checked in now, so should be good to go now

lean talon
#

its funny because the finish condition was actually worse than just the priority on some sims and never better than like 10 dps lul

knotty oriole
#

I dunno, I tend to just incrementally change one thing at a time, then merge things down and move on to the next change and was definitely the main impact starting from scratch for me

lean talon
#

oh i think i know why it was a bit worse for me at the beginning, because dreadblades condition was to only cast at <=1cp which would make it desync and hold it when the finisher right after flagellation rewarded 2cp. after i fixed that it was the biggest gain, too 👍

knotty oriole
#

Right

#

yeah that makes sense

lean talon
knotty oriole
#

Ok just wanted to confirm

#

Thanks

#

Ok now that I’ve taken care of the true master spec. I can look at the suggestions for the cursed spec. sin

wet mountain
#

Do you guys do tc research with raidbots or simc build? If raidbots, do you have the premium version?

knotty oriole
#

Both

#

Although generally use raidbots unless I have local code changes that aren't available yet

#

Since it's faster

knotty oriole
#

Ok @plain coral @noble pendant after a lot of work and testing I implemented Sepsis/Flag syncing (and various other edge cases) just now.. although think I missed the nightly build cutoff just. Might ask Seri to build tomorrow.
Ended up being quite extensive of a build-out since there were a lot of DungeonSlice and talent considerations that popped up, plus Duskwalker's.
https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/commit/51c0ff8cc3e062c17643f3b9f7e6b047f8e4bc9d
My version ended up having some major synergies with MA (talent) as a side-effect which has propelled MA+Sepsis a fair bit ahead of Subterfuge compared to the current APL. So worth keeping an eye out on that.
If you notice anything let me know. Cursed spec. sin

plain coral
#

I was looking at a way to sync Subter Vanish a bit better with the change, in case where vendetta is delayed but it was at very best 0.2% so if you say MA is better anyway

#

probably not worth it

#

&(!covenant.venthyr|buff.flagellation_buff.up|debuff.vendetta.remains)&(!covenant.night_fae|cooldown.vendetta.remains<7&cooldown.sepsis.remains>45|cooldown.sepsis.remains<5&cooldown.vendetta.up|debuff.vendetta.remains) that was the condition

Thanks for you time working on this ❤️ !

knotty oriole
#

Yeah +1% for Sepsis/MA on 5 minute and +1.7% for 3 minute. It gained a bit more than Subterfuge and since MA was already slightly ahead with some profiles, it's probably just pulling further ahead

plain coral
#

oh god

#

I notice you also filled it with Duskwalker variable

#

to attempt to sync with duskwalker

knotty oriole
#

Yes without adjusting for that the new APL was like -1.8% with Duskwalker over the old one lol

plain coral
#

obviously

knotty oriole
#

Just needs roughly the correct cooldown

#

Doesn't have to be exact, but -45% seemed like a decent ballpark for the new figures

#

Brought it back positive with the APL changes anyway instead of negative lol

plain coral
#

what a blast

#

we had on this

knotty oriole
#

I was working on it for about 5 hours lol

plain coral
#

Hahaha you rocks dude thanks you very much !

knotty oriole
#

I sure do love testing like 3 legendaries, 2 covenants with multiple trees, like 5 different talent combos, with 2-3 patchwerk lengths and DSlice and trying to fix every place where it went negative 🤣

#

Can Blizzard stop actually changing mechanics and just aura tune plz

#

Just give us +80% passive and be done with it 🤣

plain coral
#

Soon we'll have legendary combo to work with haha

knotty oriole
#

fml

#

I don't think most of the combos would be too bad APL wise though at least

#

Still most of them are pretty passive

plain coral
#

You found a good way to attempt to sync Shiv and Sepsis also

#

great !

knotty oriole
#

Yeah that turned out being pretty valuable in DungeonSlice in particular

#

Due to the way the cooldowns desync a little more

plain coral
#

Well nothing else to say but good job xD. Cursed spec to the moon sin 🚀

knotty oriole
#

Yeah could definitely be interesting, getting to the point where it's likely going to be pretty solid after the patch with CttC and such even for non-Venthyr which is good.

plain coral
#

I think Whisp also highlighted that deeper stratagem would be the go

#

for venthyr at least

knotty oriole
#

Possibly

#

I didn't check all the comparisons vs. each other, just diffed 1:1 specs for APLs

#

So will have to actually figure out the strongest builds later 😛

noble pendant
#

Fwiw, deeper was simming like considerably higher for most profiles I ran

#

0.8-1.2%

knotty oriole
#

Still seems 0.6% behind for Niya