#tc-research

1 messages · Page 37 of 1

glass apex
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Or is that becouse i am using Rang 3 and the sim i just checked is using Rang 2 ?

boreal patrol
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no, this has been in the default APL for a bit longer now and is not tied to ranks crossthink

glass apex
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I will double check when i am back home

plain coral
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I did a lot of sims about BotE usuage and I did not find any win conditionning it to Vanish. The only win I found was conditionning it with TB as long as the 10sec are inside Vendetta. If you find out something about about feel free to share !

plain coral
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So I looked into it and this what I found : If I condition Vanish with Seething Rage buff in addition to conditionning BotE with 4+ CP I don't have a loss, but it's not a win either. (This is what you suppose : Bote > vanish > env > mut > env)

edit: This is Due to overcapping Crit chance when using Crit pot. I did the exact same simulation with Agility pot and using BotE that way is a win. But you shouldn't use Agility potion anyway.
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/omPF9M18tJJe7YAmQAtRWG

Raidbots
Advanced Sim - 35,903 DPS - Raidbots
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Removing CP condition or conditionning vanish with TB in addition is no win

dense mulch
raw knoll
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Info on what? This is an apl research channel.

dense mulch
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I'm searching for some bis setups for assassin, with the new gear/essences and so, to know where to aim

raw knoll
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eventually (soon ™ ) there will be a default profile

dense mulch
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okayy thanks 😃

regal agate
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raidbots is rebuild and should include the hotfixes, have fun simming
(USE NIGHTLY)

muted osprey
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@boreal patrol people seem to be experiencing hard drops in sims overnight, is there anything that you know of that would make this happen?

raw knoll
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Crit Potion looks to be the culprit

boreal patrol
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nothing in particular that i can point to or anything rogue specific. there were a lot of changes/updates to item and hotifxes both documented and undocumented

spark mist
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it's the crit pot yeap

muted osprey
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It's just crit pot huh

plain coral
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Hello quick note about Potion Changes and BotE usage. As I mentionned yesterday it is a win to use Vanish into Seething Rage buff (BotE Crit dmg buff) when using Agility / Fury potion and MA talent. This is even more relevant today with the nerf to the potion of Focused Resolve.

The idea is to use BoTE with 4+ CP and use Vanish when Seething Rage buff is up (i.e. right after BoTE)

Here is the full simulation I did. I changed 2 line :

actions.cds+=/vanish,if=talent.master_assassin.enabled&!stealthed.all&master_assassin_remains<=0&!dot.rupture.refreshable&dot.garrote.remains>3&buff.seething_rage.up```
And
```actions.essences+=/blood_of_the_enemy,if=debuff.vendetta.up&(!talent.toxic_blade.enabled|(debuff.toxic_blade.up&combo_points>3)|debuff.vendetta.remains<=10)|target.time_to_die<=10```

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/hk5EsuiUCrK5C3xHCVkX5g
Raidbots
Advanced Sim - 37,289 DPS - Raidbots
maiden cargo
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is the pocketsized computation device (the red punchcard) supported for precombat?

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i'm trying actions.precombat+=/use_item,name=pocketsized_computation_device,precombat_seconds=1.5 and it doesn't recognize

knotty oriole
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Channeled actions aren’t supported in precombat no

rich temple
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@plain coral what was the nerf to focused resolve? that would explain why i saw a drastic drop in sims

muted osprey
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It only stacks 1% per stack now I believe, ending in much slower stacking afaik

jagged river
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Has there been any thought of using the cyclotronic blast during rank 3 blood of the enemy buff?

plain coral
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I did thougt about it

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but I didn't do any sim yet

cerulean ridge
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@plain coral could u help me sim the Trinket Ashvane's Razor Coral with different approches? right no it jsut sues it on cd, i would like to see the difference to stacking it etc.

plain coral
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I looted it todays, I didn't dived in it but I will this week

cerulean ridge
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can i expect posts/sims about it here?

plain coral
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yes I'll post anything I learn about it

cerulean ridge
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❤

knotty oriole
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I was experimenting with an initial Razor Coral check the other day

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ashvanes_razor_coral,if=debuff.razor_coral_debuff.down|debuff.vendetta.remains>10|target.time_to_die<20

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Was the best I came up with in limited testing, but I did not spend much time on it. I have it on my list to look at this week

vagrant quail
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is there any sim done for every compination of Punch Cards for the Pocket-Sized Computation Device ?

plain coral
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Might need to make sure Razor have the priority over Pocket-device in case you are using it

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First re-apply razor, then use device 20sec after

boreal patrol
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@plain coral Thanks for looking at the Blood thing. I've been going through it and it looks good, so I incorporated it (with slight adjustments to not break other builds) into the default APL.

glass apex
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How optimal are the sims for Phial of the Arcane Tempest Trinket ? 430 is simming almost 500 dps lower then a 415 Kimbuls but is doing way more dmg in the meters ?!

boreal patrol
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I don't think that one is implemented yet.

glass apex
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Thx that would explain it

boreal patrol
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Afaik there was once concern requiring testing on live servers. It should get implemented soon now that people can get it.

glass apex
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Very nice, thanks for the information

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I dont have done much testing but i can see on the first boss in normal it did 179.4k for my rogue mate (430 hc version). And my Kimbul 415 did 135.3k.

muted osprey
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@boreal patrol have you looked into how to use coral best, there seems to be a lot of discussion about it the last 2 days as people are torn

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sorta the diff between regular usage of trink vs usage of trink with another on use and if it's still viable then

boreal patrol
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No, not yet. Koji has run some initial sims, see above.

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On a side note about that. SimC always prioritizes the first slot if you have multiple on-use trinkets. So order of those can matter for comparison.

muted osprey
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I actually didn't know that, ty vm

regal agate
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cyclonic blast might be good for trinket combination given the use is usually delayed so the 20 sec cd the trinket use has should not affect it a lot

plain coral
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I dit a little sim yesterday following Koji clue (using with Vendetta, refreshing after vendetta then let it stack til next vend) and it was beter to refresh Coral before using Cyclotronic (38200 vs 38330 iirc with my profile) Yet i'm still a bit concern about the fact that I overcap crit a lot with it

brisk wadi
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assuming you guys know cyclonic is being used before vendetta in sim, is it not buffed by the 30% dmg increase?

torn sentinel
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It is not

cerulean ridge
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ur tried using Razor with TB togheter?

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at least it "feels" reasonable

cerulean ridge
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  • if the stacking for next vendetta tactics ends up best, how long we wait in a targetchange
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for example orgozoa or something, i leave it on the boss and do the adds?

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i mean if "holding" it is only like 0,1% better then using on cd, i would think its better to use it if we attakc another target for ~15 seconds

honest heath
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how does the sim treat font of power? does it do garrote mutilate rupture trinket for full 4 secs vendetta or trinket pre pull stealth garrote mutilate rupture vendetta

torn sentinel
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It starts channeling at 0 and then begins dps at 4 seconds but you should channel at 5 on timer and then pot stealth

merry pike
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i think its just being treated as a strraight up 927 crit buff on urself

left oar
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it is

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don't sim with it, benthic one is way better, because most of the time you're only getting a 10th of that crit

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if you don't have benthic tho, this one is the 2nd choice because you don't lose stats for the extra buff

golden briar
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"you're only getting a 10th of that crit" ?! if you're progression raiding you should consider the whole crit as a raid buff and absolutely worth using

twin ferry
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well a like 90 crit raid buff isn't that good

boreal patrol
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remember that his should increase with more people having it

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if i'm not mistaken

golden briar
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yes, if 10 ppl have it, all 10 have full effect (at least according to the tooltip)

cerulean ridge
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@boreal patrol what does the razor outlaw thing mean, the buff only holds 2min

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so i wait maximum time?

golden briar
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90 crit raid buff is EXACTLY as good as 1 player having 900 bonus crit, and benthic belt is capped at 425

boreal patrol
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@cerulean ridge do you have a source for 2min being max? the buff has 2min base duration but it should extend with every stack. logs seem to confirm simc behavior is correct

cerulean ridge
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ah sry havnet seen the extending part

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but outlaw has no "execute" rigth so without the other trinket

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whats my usage?

boreal patrol
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same

cerulean ridge
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stack till low hp boss?

boreal patrol
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yep

cerulean ridge
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doesnt the crit dr gets pretty high at some point?

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but there no fix point cause i have no real execute so anytime with low hp, cd's up and maby bl/potion but its feels bit "wacky"?

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so the rule is basicly use it at my last cd usage before the boss dies?

knotty oriole
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@golden briar I agree with you here. The value of the buff is pretty high even if it doesn’t show on Damage meters for you. 😃

plain coral
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I'm not sure this have been reported yet but it appears that the recent fix for MA opener is making APL use Pocketsized trinket at the opener which end up in a noticeable loss when using other trinket such Lurkers or Coral. Should not be too hard to fix tho

regal agate
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we came to the same conclusion, thanks for the report 😃

boreal patrol
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about to fix, thanks!

rich temple
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safe to assume the above mentioned MA change is the cause for significant loss comparing sims from last night to now? using pocketsized+lurker's

plain coral
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yes

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should be fix soon

willow knoll
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is it possible i can get a bit more clarity on coral usage? for outlaw it says "use under 30%" but do you ever consume the stacks again during the last 30%? or just do you never do it agaiN?

rich temple
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isn't the idea actually to do it just before 30% so that the dribbling inkpod benefits when it procs?

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also ty @plain coral good to know

willow knoll
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ye, thats what i was doing

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on the last few bosses, but im just wondering what to do during the last 30% lol

rich temple
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i don't have sims to support but i guess just pop on CD with good buffs into a BtE? 🤷

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can take a look at your sim and see what the APL is currently doing

knotty oriole
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@willow knoll Basically you likely would just build up stacks and use it as late as possible to get full benefit

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Or during your last AR or something

willow knoll
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word

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tyvm

cobalt hare
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tryna find info on razor coral for assasin

spark mist
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same not much posts about it

knotty oriole
spark mist
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yeah idk where to use it on opener

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i understend to stack it for 2nd vendetta but idk what to do in opener with it

knotty oriole
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Nothing

cinder hedge
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Use it to build stacks for 2nd vendetta

knotty oriole
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You turn it on in your opener to build up stacks

spark mist
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and use it on 2nd ha ok thanks mates

idle bolt
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hey friends, idk if there were any changes to font of power trinket yday night but its currently being used after vendetta and fully channeled mid toxic blade window (:

maiden cargo
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Did they change the way that azshara trinket sims for assa because yesterday it was a 2% upgrade for me and today it's now a 2% downgrade and I've not changed my trinkets

idle bolt
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read what i typed

maiden cargo
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oh

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awkward

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thanks :))

idle bolt
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atm its being fully channeled mid toxic blade MA window (+ bote)

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1/4 of vendetta duration gone + its the 5s w/ highest potential dps

quartz geyser
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Any idea on when the apl for font being fixed?

knotty oriole
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I'll look at it tonight

amber flare
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where can i find Razor coral info for outlaw Raid and Mythic

verbal latch
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Pushed a first pass on Razor Coral APL:

  • For Assa, stack the crit conversion use with Vendetta.
  • For Outlaw and Sub, it is worth to let it stack up for a while until you reach late "execute" windows below 30% boss HP and then do the crit conversion into either Adrenaline Rush or Symbols of Death. This appears good in any case but also has sweet interaction with the Dribbling Inkpod trinket which damages below 30% and can crit.
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it's in the TC-updates

vagrant quail
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@split sorrel "T24 sims are on HeroDamage 😃"

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why sims are using 415 ilvl ?

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azerite sims

cinder hedge
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What do sims assume for loyal to the end?

regal agate
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@vagrant quail Rogue does not use 415 itemlvl, you can hover over the gear here(shown in attached image).
One thing woth mentioning is that not every class has a updated t24 profile, so those who have not updated propper likely have something close to t23 where 415 was iirc used

📎 unknown.png
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last time i checked (earlier this week) only those specs had a up-to-date t24 profile

📎 unknown.png
boreal patrol
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@vagrant quail Because I forgot to update that part. Will be fixed in an upcoming data update. Thanks.

boreal patrol
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Font of Azshara issue will be fixed in the next nightly.

plain coral
boreal patrol
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Right, also pushing a fix shortly. Thanks!

errant marten
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Random thought, do we have any idea if BotE affects damage from trinkets?

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I have the execute trinket from 5th boss, and wondering if it's worth saving blood for 30% to "snapshot" the damage

cerulean ridge
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probably already asked but cant ifnd it right now, what is the right usage for azshara trinekt now, before pull or directly before vendetta?

knotty oriole
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Yes is most likely does since it's generic crit on target

cerulean ridge
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sims does is before vendetta now

boreal patrol
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We can't sim precasting Font, unfortunately.

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Precombat APL does not support channels, atm.

cerulean ridge
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ok so it use it pre combat an then align it with vendetta. i have that and razor now. channel/use tilts me but my vendettas are insane 😄

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can i trust the sim in case of both trinket usages?

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its kinda wacky

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razor coral goes into the "outlaw" rule of 30% dmg or something like that

boreal patrol
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Seri already rebuilt raidbots nightly for us, so the fixes mentioned above should be live.

cerulean ridge
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can look at it, if somehting should be differently besides the precombat

muted osprey
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@boreal patrol what's the reason behind the spike with MA with life force on herodamage?

vale yarrow
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i guess the life force + MA + benthic boots combo is still a solid burst, compared to the subterfuce base line

grand urchin
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I see that on the APL, Razorcoral is used 20s after Font. Wouldn't using Font put Razorcoral on a 30s CD and not 20s?

west prism
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its 20 seconds

boreal patrol
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Special technical mention for those who like to fiddle with the APL: I finally made some changes to have the rogue APL use fully static racials and trinkets, not depending on auto-generations. This means with the next nightly build, the APL will always include all special trinket conditions as well as the default fallback line. You can also copy the full APL from our wiki without having to worry about manually adding in trinkets now.

sudden hamlet
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Does anyone know if Inkpod trinket is being simmed with TB affecting the nature damage because from log checking it seems TB is increasing inkpod damage

naive mauve
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If it is affecting inkpod that's probably going to get hotfixed pretty quickly here anyway

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It won't be affecting it in sims since spec abilities aren't supposed to affect trinket damage anymore

boreal patrol
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TB is whitelisted so it should not affect it

muted osprey
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I've seen logs where it seems like it is affecting inkpod

stuck herald
naive mauve
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Most likely because of the damage increase debuff and haste you get from Rank 3

raw knoll
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Stacking haste and 5% dmg buff

naive mauve
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That plus the crit bonus from MA

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Big burst window

stuck herald
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ok, so there IS an interaction. Thats cool

raw knoll
golden briar
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are there plans to add "full stack loyal to the end" to charts ?

boreal patrol
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Yes, Azerite Power option variants are on my TODO, can't give an ETA right now though.

muted osprey
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@knotty oriole something's fucking wack with the sims atm

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It seems font is fucking up sims real bad

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Any info on it?

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another negative haste sim

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one has haste at 10.5, 2 has haste on negative value

knotty oriole
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At a glance, nothing is coming to mind

muted osprey
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Because it seems it's only haste, and only with font

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But I'm also so confused since the two shouldn't really be impacting one another that much

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Not enough to warrant that big of a shift for sure

night tinsel
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This might be somewhat related to what we were discussing before @knotty oriole

remote granite
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does haste effect the length of the channel

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not that that should make it matter that much, but otherwise something weird is going on

muted osprey
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Yeah that's what I'm thinking

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but giving it a negative fucking value wouldn't make sense then, would it?

torn sentinel
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It doesn't

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doesn't seem to in sim either

knotty oriole
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I've got an idea for why but need to check it

quartz geyser
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It doesn’t effect the channel

night tinsel
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the only thing that i can see in the two valaena sims is one sim is auto attacking a lot faster than the other

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that could just come down to the uptimes on force multipler though

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one is getting more crit force, the other is haste.

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so these weird stat scaling is probably because the gear is right on the edge of swinging which stat you're getting from the force multiplier, and one stat is far more valuable than the other

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@muted osprey try running those sims without force multiplier and see what happens

prime terrace
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still seems to be wonky without force multiplier, changing the food buff from feast to haste(93) on one of them brings it more or less back down to reality, changing to crit(93) leaves it sky high for some reason

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seems to be something wonky where crit/haste overtake each other that's not specifically force multiplier but what i have no idea

knotty oriole
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I'm pretty sure it's just a minor breakpoint related to something

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It's not consistent

prime terrace
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only appears to happen with font equipped too, running the exact same character with a wq trinket at the same ilvl with the same crit value doesn't seem to cause such a dropoff

knotty oriole
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Yeah although a lot of things seem to factor into it due to the haste from the essences and such

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Still investigating

knotty oriole
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I found the issue, it's related to the rescheduling of the melee swing timers in the core trinket support. Working on a fix now.

muted osprey
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MVP

knotty oriole
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Ok the fix is checked in, should make a build eventually

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Bad news being that spike was pretty much fake, so in those specific Haste ranges that DPS is going to disappear 😛

knotty oriole
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Raidbots nightly should be updated now

empty vortex
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At the cost of my 40k pepehands

torn sentinel
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is there an ETA on when the precombat channel will be implemented? tried simming it myself but i think the apl needs to be changed for it

boreal patrol
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It works fine for Outlaw and Sub. For Assa it's not directly an APL issue but the precombat option breaking an APL condition. I just pushed a workaround that should fix it. I'm asking seri to rebuild raidbots and will put a note here when that is done.

torn sentinel
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Ok thanks

plain coral
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I also lost a minor amount of simdps with the yesterday fix

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around 70 simdps, can't figure out where it comes from (no font equipped)

knotty oriole
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Essence hotfix? Cylotronic? Lots of potential reasons.

plain coral
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Cyclotronic got fixed ?

night tinsel
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I wouldn't be too worried about losing 70 simdps.

knotty oriole
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Cyclotronic had the same issue that Font had in some cases

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Just a shorter channel so less of a problem

warm roost
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Has mystler’s fix for font of power gone through

boreal patrol
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Yes

cerulean ridge
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Maybe found an APl Bug

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it uses vanish/ garrote in BotE window when skilled into subterfuge

knotty oriole
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I don't think that's really a major issue honestly. There is usually going to be at least 1 DoT refresh within the 10s window at some point

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But will have a look

cerulean ridge
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but the 5 seconds crit dmg buff

regal agate
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you can add !buff.blood_of_the_enemy.up to the vanish condition(s),
its around 0.2% damage win with your profile

📎 unknown.png
knotty oriole
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Yeah figured it would be sub-100 dps

plain coral
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would it mean subt is better than ma ?

cerulean ridge
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wait im confused aswell, i thought it was bad cause it wastes the 25% crit dmg for a garrote cast

knotty oriole
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I mean would need to be running BotE to begin with, which I'm not sure most people are atm since Lucid+Iris is very strong too

cerulean ridge
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nvm the command says "buff not up" right?

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sry noob in apl

knotty oriole
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At least for my personal setup Stubterfuge is about 0.6-0.8% behind

cerulean ridge
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BotE+Lucid sims higher then Lucid+Iris for me

knotty oriole
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So 0.2% change isn't going to make that too different

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Either way it's pretty marginal

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And honestly, if 1 GCD is the difference between one talent and another

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Play what you want 😄

true knoll
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does loyal to the end sims right ? or do you only get the affect if you are the only one with it in the raid?

tired latch
west prism
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the trait is pretty busted with 4 ppl using it

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and i dont think the sim account for someone dying either

regal agate
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not sure why it should account for that

west prism
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it shouldnt, but the trait might have more value than sims say.

boreal patrol
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you can also set an option to sim deaths

upper brook
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Is there any apl command for sim to channel Font trinket pre combat?

maiden cargo
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try actions.precombat+=/use_item,name=azshara's_font_of_power,precombat_seconds=4

upper brook
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thanks

boreal patrol
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no, there is a simc wide option that assumes you casted the trinket precombat, e.g. with 4s bfa.font_of_power_precombat_channel=4

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you can put that into the raidbots custom APL box

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no need to edit the apl and that precombat_seconds thing won't work anyway since it's a special hack i made for some rogue cooldowns

cursive violet
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Is BOTE and Lucid simming correctly because theres not a single top 10 Sin parse that isn't BOTE+Lucid but for me and all my rogue friends Lucid major sims higher with worldvein.

knotty oriole
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People aren't using Worldvein because most everyone has only R2 which makes it far less reliable with any kind of movement or disruption

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As people get Rank 3 next week and especially once people have 3 slots, can probably assume melee stacks are going to be running it more frequently than now

fervent lark
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you mean rank3 now right?

knotty oriole
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Most people do not have Rank 3 right now

fervent lark
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very easy to have rank 3 right now, most people cap islands each week

knotty oriole
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Getting Rank 3 involves multiple multi-day follower missions after the 3rd map from capping the weekly this week for all the reports. Even if someone capped on Tuesday, they would not have it right now. At minimum it's like 5 days after the final report since they are all 36 hour missions when countered.

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Either way, this is off topic of this channel, but the main reason it is not being run right now is not because it isn't good. 😃

fervent lark
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actually the 2nd one is 3days! but can do it in 18hours haha but yeh i get your point - super close to being able to use tho and im sure some already have it becasue im slow with my follower missions

west prism
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when using the Font of Power trinket command so that it uses the trinket pre-pull. The 2nd CD rotation seems scuffed.

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It uses vendetta and potion on its own, then after about 10 seconds it has TB again and then builds CPs by doing 2x mutilates until using blood of the enemy (still no vanish). Then after having used that envenom it vanishes and does mutilate-rupture-mutilate during the MA window.

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Surely that can't be optimal use?

torn sentinel
west prism
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I'll have to do another sim and check again

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Maybe this sample was just megascuffed

plain coral
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yes this might due to either you have a 4cp or 5cp rupture up

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There is no condition for the apl to not refresh dots during specific event so wierd stuff like this can happens.

knotty oriole
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@west prism Don't suppose you had a raidbots link for that report?

west prism
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I tried another sim and its all good now, might just have been like Mikihisa said.

knotty oriole
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The current APL logic uses Vanish after BotE and BotE with TB up and a CP condition and Vanish also has a !rupture.refreshable condition.. and Rupture is ignored when Vendetta and TB are both up as long as there is >2s left on Rupture

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So it seems like it would really take the stars aligning in a really strange way to get a Rupture in that Vanish

west prism
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yea i found it really strange too. But on the new sim its into instant envenom. Like are you supposed to hold vanish until you have TB/BotE up

knotty oriole
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actions.cds+=/vanish,if=talent.master_assassin.enabled&!stealthed.all&master_assassin_remains<=0&!dot.rupture.refreshable ...
...
actions.dot+=/variable,name=skip_rupture,value=debuff.vendetta.up&debuff.toxic_blade.up&dot.rupture.remains>2
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Like I don't really see any possible way where !dot.rupture.refreshable could return true and then dot.rupture.remains>2 be false within 2s

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given the pandemic threshold on rupture

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and Vendetta+TB should be up there

west prism
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Yea i have no idea tbh, but as you can see in the sample sequence above it does do that

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It must really have been stars aligned cus i cant get it to do that again

plain coral
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The only possible way is with a 3cp rupture xD

thin lagoon
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Can Simc API account for Undulating Times downtime (how), like to know just how bad it is for progression

boreal patrol
boreal patrol
#

Another note: 4s precombat channeling will be default behavior with Font with the next nightly.

cinder hedge
#

did something happen with Poen's, they sim like shit now? was something added like with undulating tides to randomly proc the heal to reflect more accurately?

teal verge
#

how did you guys add 4s precombat timer by default, was trying with dk but always had to use the bfa.font_of_power_precombat_channel override. I saw that there were precombat actions added in each of the different rogue profiles but nothing specific was listed (as far as 4s goes)

boreal patrol
#

It was made default in the simc core to pick up precombat APL lines using font as 4s precast. While 4s is default for this, bfa.font_of_power_precombat_channel still modifies it.

#

Other specs may or may not have been updated for this approach.

teal verge
#

Alright ty!

willow knoll
knotty oriole
#

Probably because the adds don’t actually get to 30% hp but just last a specific period of time

#

Perhaps some way for us to fake it by checking the add duration and not just the health percent. Or to dynamically change the health percent based on the duration. But likely would be SimC core changes needed.

boreal patrol
#

Looks like it sometimes does trigger but often not. They do trigger a death event but I think the HP might be really wonky here, yeah.

#

It's definitely a core~~/fighstyle~~ issue. Relayed it but not sure how quickly that can be addressed.

vapid tusk
#

does anyone know how i can sim essences with rank 3, when i dont have them?

muted osprey
#

You can change the shit in the input

boreal patrol
#

Raidbots top gear also has advanced controls you can activate with a checkbox.

boreal patrol
#

Inkpod should probably be fixed with DS in the next nightly.

willow knoll
#

😘

gleaming glade
#

could it potentially be worth using the cyclotronic blast punch card pre pull for the first usage, rather than waiting until AR is over? we had an idea in outlaw whether a gain could be found to pre pot on 2 seconds, and start the channel at 1 second before the pull?

#

never-mind, solo found that it's already like that in the apl

knotty oriole
#

The Outlaw APL already is using Cyclo pre-pull

#

It's a very minor improvement DPS wise but does make things a bit more straightforward

#

So yeah it's worth doing but mostly as a QOL thing

gleaming glade
#

alrighty, thanks for that koji

twin ferry
#

this may not be the right place to ask but does someone know how poen's deepsea benthic item works in practice? I've heard a lot of different things that contradict each other

muted osprey
#

It seems to be doing 70/30 in procs from the logs I've seen, and good damage (near bracers)

twin ferry
#

I've seen 50/50 in a lot of logs.

#

and in a couple 100/0

muted osprey
#

Yeah, it's all just anecdotal evidence.

twin ferry
#

I just don't get how they actually work and can't draw a meaningful conclusion from logs

#

some go with the droplets can heal or damage based on who they hit. Some say it doesn't work like that. Was just wondering if anyone had any in practice use also going to post in general as this may not be the correct place for this discussion i'm not sure

muted osprey
#

@knotty oriole what does the usage look like of coral and font for sin when paired together?

west prism
#

it uses it once

muted osprey
#

Only at the end?

west prism
#

yea

#

starts stacking at like 15-16 seconds into the fight

#

and then that is the 2nd use

muted osprey
#

hm, it's not worth casting font 10 sec before vend and and getting a 10 sec window in vend where u get both trinks?

west prism
#

I have no clue, maybe Mystler/Koji has tried it.

muted osprey
#

Aye

knotty oriole
#

For Assassination? It should be using it basically with every Vendetta other than the first

muted osprey
#

But with the two trinkets at the same time

west prism
#

It doesnt do that when you have font of power

knotty oriole
#

Currently Assassination doesn't have any special logic with Inkpod. It's been really borderline compared to Outlaw and Sub

west prism
#

it uses it in the very last vendetta

muted osprey
#

Yeah I mean I'm interested in seeing if you cast font first, vend 10 sec later, coral 10 after that

#

Meaning you get full 20 sec of font in vend, and you get the last 10 sec of vend with coral in it + the 10 after

west prism
#

yea it doesnt seem to work like it should with font of power equipped at the same time

muted osprey
#

also, vanish/tb usage within the vend, if it'd be worth to wait with it for the last 10 to get both trinkets on use at the same time as popping burst

cerulean ridge
#

the "dont delay tb" seems to be higher priority there aswell

#

i played the tinrket comb the whole week

#

the main problem is

#

when u want to use it on cd u cant do what u suggest

#

casue it would delay ur second vendetta

#

cause between precast font and first vendetta

#

arent 10 seconds

muted osprey
#

Yeah, so you just delay 2nd vendetta yeah?

cerulean ridge
#

me perosnally no i do as the apl says right now

muted osprey
#

Unless fight timer cucks you, who cares

cerulean ridge
#

or if i gett an important target in between

muted osprey
#

You don't lose anything

cerulean ridge
#

i.e. second radiance of azshara add

#

vendetta isnt ready so i pop coral with a tb window but thats feelcraft tbh

muted osprey
#

All of this is just crafting

#

but like I said, it doesn't matter to delay vend 10 sec if you wont lose one

west prism
#

The delay isnt that big

muted osprey
#

Yeah, it wont matter most fights

west prism
#

you use the font at like 6 timer, you wont use vendetta as the first GCD you do

muted osprey
#

Unless kill timer is specific.

west prism
#

so you'll probably use vendetta like 8-9 seconds AT LEAST after you used the font

cerulean ridge
#

ye would be great if @knotty oriole or @boreal patrol could test it like that. i dont have a clue about apl

muted osprey
#

I've already @'d koji

west prism
#

I think he thought we were talking about Inkpod, and also probably raiding at this point.

muted osprey
#

Probably.

knotty oriole
#

I am 😄

muted osprey
#

gl then fam

tough veldt
#

Notorious Gladiator's Leather Hood (415)

head=,id=167309,bonus_id=6349/1527/4786/5420/6346,context=25,azerite_powers=

wich parameter defines the helm ilvl here on simc import? don't know if it's the good chan sorry if it's not :/

muted osprey
#

wdym

#

It's the uh

#

"bonus id"

regal agate
#

you can use ilevel=XXX as a parameter

tough veldt
#

oh great I will so

#

thanks guys 😃

boreal patrol
#

Re: font+coral, it's a timing issue. The condition is currently to stack coral with vendetta so that at least 10s of it are covered whereas font is used up to 10s before vendetta. This means there currently is practically no buffer for the 20s cd window between them and it ends up using Coral due to the TTD condition. We'll have to look into pushing an update for this. I think fuu made a comparison and found it's better to delay Coral and loosen it's restriction that it can be used later during Vendetta than to use Font even earlier.

cursive violet
#

" it's better to delay Coral and loosen it's restriction that it can be used later during Vendetta than to use Font even earlier." what does this mean

#

Does it mean font like usual and just coral a bit later into vendetta

regal agate
#

front condition allow a use up to 10 sec pre vendetta, this means that in the ideal case font is used 10 sec pre vendetta (30 sec buff duration) so that the buff covers vendetta completely.
Coral use (atm) is with 10 or more seconds vendetta remaining, this means if font is minimal delayed coral wont be used.
To counter this i tried to allow a slightly earlier font use or a slightly later coral use and a slightly earlier font use.

The later coral use was producing a better output there.
sim: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/sBRzimA3bu9k3ESKaouKnu

📎 unknown.png
night tinsel
#

so ive got a 430 inkpod, 450 coral and a 430 font, what am i rolling with

#

I assume someone looked into whether holding cds for 30% in a fight where you won't lose a vendetta to do so to match it with coral + bote + inkpod explosion is a gain

fiery creek
maiden cargo
#

Need a raidbots url so they can see what's going on

knotty oriole
#

APL only strictly avoids using Rupture during MA if TB is up

fiery creek
#

Does APL hold TB for Vanish?

knotty oriole
#

No

fiery creek
#

Or should it rather

knotty oriole
#

Holding TB is usually not worth it specifically no

#

Avoiding Rupture during MA could be a gain

#

But basically only in the realm of 0.2%

fiery creek
#

I see

knotty oriole
#

It's not really that impactful and only happens rarely. Probably want to try to avoid it in practice but for the sim it's of minimal average impact since it's rare

#

Since it checks that Rupture isn't refreshable before using Vanish

#

Basically like a 1 global window if the duration is right on the edge of pandemic

#

I'll look at updating it next time I'm in there but it's only like 70 dps

fiery creek
#

Yeah makes sense

knotty oriole
#

Will change to

actions.dot+=/variable,name=skip_rupture,value=debuff.vendetta.up&(debuff.toxic_blade.up|master_assassin_remains>0)&dot.rupture.remains>2
fiery creek
#

Never knew it's not worth to hold TB for Vend/Vanish. Have always been makin sure TB is up for 2min cds

#

Using TB off cd leads to potentially more total casts in a fight I guess

knotty oriole
#

Because it's such a short cooldown the cost of holding it is fairly high

#

Every attempt we've made at holding TB has not really worked out

#

The best bet is mostly just to pool Energy before TB is coming off cooldown to maximize the window

fiery creek
#

Gotcha

wooden marlin
#

I hold 2min cds for tb

golden briar
#

yea, holding a 2 min CD for 10 sec is a smaller loss than holding a 25 sec CD for 10 sec

#

unless you strictly know your killtime will cost you an additional cast of vendetta

west prism
#

The play (according to APL) is to use vendetta on CD but delay vanish for when TB is up within Vendetta, so you dont pop vanish instantly. So theres no point holding TB

grand urchin
#

Anybody knows what's the sims having the CLF Rank 3 Minor RPPM set to?

knotty oriole
#

The spell data looks like it’s 2 RPPM hasted

worn cradle
#

I have a question. If I have rank 3 visions as major and lucid rank 3 minor, and triple nothing personal traits on my azerite gear... Should I be sticking to that style or is there another build which shines more?

cinder hedge
#

vision desyncs vendetta from vanish, it is not a recommended essence

worn cradle
#

What so snapshot my vendetta vanish into a shrouded suffocation garrote? Like I'm pulling (what I think is decent) triple stacking nothing personal with it, but perhaps I need to re arrange some traits and essences

maiden cargo
#

this channel is for apl research

worn cradle
#

Sorry I'm new here, didn't know where to ask

maiden cargo
willow knoll
#

The apl appears to be using flames wrong and could be used mildly better, at least for outlaw but probably all specs

#

It casts them both right away in the opener which overlaps the dot super hard

#

And it might be a gain to try and pandemic 1 extra tick of the rank 3 debuff from the cast if that makes sense

knotty oriole
#

I have it on my list to implement this but the difference is truly very very minimal since it only affects the first cast of the fight

#

I was experimenting with it the other day but put it on the back burner since it was like 0.1% or less

maiden cargo
#

maybe not using at max energy/waiting for lucid versatility buff might be an improvement

golden briar
#

I'm pretty sure apl doesn't play around your minor slot but i may be wrong

knotty oriole
#

Cooldown is wait too short to hold for something like that imo

#

Any cooldown in the 20-30s range really has very little value in holding unless the interaction is extremely large

maiden cargo
#

I tried if=energy.time to max>1 for rank 3 flame and it was a very minor ~100 increase

knotty oriole
#

Yeah there are some small gains for the capping for Rank 3 as well as the overlapping Guy mentioned, but it's pretty small

#

Depends on the spec too

#

With a bunch of setups I could see that being a loss for Outlaw for example because Outlaw is at the top of the Energy bar for a large percentage of the fight

maiden cargo
#

that's fair

#

I was outlaw when I did that tho

knotty oriole
#

I'll test some conditionals this weekend to see if anything is a clear win. The stack checks are definitely straightforward enough for the opener

#

Might depend on if you are running Lucid or not in terms of the Energy situation

maiden cargo
knotty oriole
#

Would likely want a Rank 3 check on that too

maiden cargo
#

Yeah

knotty oriole
# 
(!dot.concentrated_flame_burn.remains&!action.concentrated_flame.in_flight)|full_recharge_time<gcd.max
#

Are some other things to check

remote granite
#

Hi, I believe I found an error with the card "Harmonic Dematerializer". https://www.wowhead.com/item=167677/harmonic-dematerializer

When i sim this with my character in a 10 minute sim, the HTML report shows that the damage actually falls off at a certain point in the sim, instead of steadily increasing.
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/tipziYt9L3Hy1ptTuvFigR it caps at 99 stacks - https://i.imgur.com/CIz0Svh.png but in the report, it doesn't seem to go above 20, so i don 't believe the potential of this item is being recognized in sims. Seems that it's falling off heavily every 300 seconds or so.

Wowhead
Harmonic Dematerializer

This is a level 415 epic red punchcard. It is looted from HK-8 Aerial Oppression Unit. In the Red Punchcard Gems category. An item from World of Warcraft: Battle for Azeroth.

Raidbots
Top Gear - Odowla - 33,867 DPS - Raidbots
Imgur
boreal patrol
tired latch
#

@remote granite If you didn't see pre purge, appears to be a bug and Mystler will investigate, thanks for highlighting.

boreal patrol
#

I already see the issue and am pushing a fix that should be in the next nightly.

#

Thanks for reporting it.

remote granite
#

Cool, ty for looking into it

willow knoll
#

if there is anything wrong with these sims id like to know if i can try and make it a bit more refined to give more accurate results in the future

boreal patrol
#

Certainly interesting. My only concerns are the fixed iteration sim with a high target error and the 40s duration.

round canyon
willow knoll
#

4 targets, with lust + nazj, same reroll logic as the 40 seconds, and the results are basically the same

knotty oriole
#

Looks like something we can integrate although 0.4% is pretty small

willow knoll
#

It's alot larger in the smaller sims for obvious reasons, over a long period of time it's not likely to be worth that much since it's flipping back and forth between reroll logics

#

Is my guess at least

knotty oriole
#

Will investigate some more tonight

dire fossil
#

Hey was looking into when the APL wants me to use font of power for outlaw and found what I think is a mistake.. it is channeling the font 2 gcd after popping AR. I think either holding AR until after the channel is finished or delaying the channel until AR is over / next AR is up is correct (not sure which, which is the reason I was looking into it in the first place).

📎 fontAPL.png
#

it doesn't specify that the item is font but you can see that the latent arcana buff is missing from the pistol shot above and present in the sinister strike below

dire fossil
#

after checking the APL i guess the item is just not custom coded yet, will look into it myself and report back. ty!

dire fossil
#

couldn't figure out how to make AR and blade flurry care what the cooldown of font is, when i tried cooldown.azsharas_font_of_power.remains>5 it just never used AR

boreal patrol
#

you can use trinket.x.cooldown.remains or use cooldown.y with y being the spell name (latent_arcana in this case, i believe)

dire fossil
#

latent_arcana didn't work but trinket.2.cooldown.remains worked, gained some more damage by saying don't AR or blade flurry if font is up in 10 sec

boreal patrol
#

Nice, I'll have a look at it.

boreal patrol
#

Incorporated some of you folks' research into an APL update. Thank you for your contributions!

muted osprey
#

Just a general question again about font + coral usage for sin, would it not be beneficial to cast font earlier to get a higher uptime of both coral and font within vend?

#

More like, casting font at 14 pre vend to get coral at 6 sec into vend, meaning you get full 14 sec of font + coral inside vend

golden briar
#

@boreal patrol maybe rephrase "don't vanish with wits up" to "don't ambush with wits up"

#

people might not vanish for utility cuz they have wits up 😄

cerulean ridge
#

not sure if miscoomunication or i miss something, but in t-update its now
"Delay AR up to 20s if Font is coming up for it."

while yoda said in his research
"gained some more damage by saying don't AR or blade flurry if font is up in 10 sec"
and
"gained some more by saying don't font if AR is up soon, 15-20 sec seemed like the right amount to hold"

is there some mixup or was the endresult different?

knotty oriole
#

I think Mystler was primarily addressing some ST general-case optimizations while Yoda was bringing up some issues specific to larger scale AoE scenarios.

muted osprey
#

Anything on my question? cryingrn

knotty oriole
#

I have no answer for your question, no. 😛

muted osprey
knotty oriole
#

Think it’s an interesting idea but will have to sim some variants to see.

muted osprey
#

There's so many small changes to do in there too

solar swift
brittle cosmos
#

could be because you wont usually, if ever, hit the next vendetta window

#

unless you are holding cd's at some point in the fight

boreal patrol
#

Yes, it uses it the last time because the boss is about to die anyway. And the other uses that may make it look so much are simply the ones to make it start stacking again.

#

@cerulean ridge Yeah, that's why I said based on. Went with the 20s and only for AR. Did not really see any gains in delaying Blade Flurry since it has a rather short cooldown. Just don't use Font during it.

#

@golden briar Haha, I mean I'd just use Vanish for utility anyway. If sombody wants to use vanish for utility but does not do so during BF simply because of my summary then idk. 😄

golden briar
#

doesn't hurt to rephrase 😃

boreal patrol
#

@muted osprey I do see some gains when adjusting precombat usage with Font+Coral but gotta refine my research before I update.

muted osprey
#

There's a lot of minmax diff that can be done

#

I'm unsure what's best, but getting 14 seconds of everything together seems like a dps gain

golden briar
#

tbh i tried that and if you do a proper single target rotation, TB and "14 sec before vend" come up at the same time, so you can't prechannel then

#

otherwise you have to delay vend

boreal patrol
#

From the looks of my test just now. ~15s precombat Font and then 20 before Vendetta so that you can have a full Coral window for it.

muted osprey
#

Full coral is better than full font?

golden briar
#

i don't think precombat should change tbh

#

just during the fight

muted osprey
#

You should just delay 2nd one

#

90% of the time it wont you lose any casts anyways

muted osprey
#

@boreal patrol just to double check, using font @ 14 pre vend to get full 20 sec vend within font and then coral @ 6 sec into vend to get the last 14 sec of vend with coral too wasn't worth it?

#

There's also holding tb/vanish for both to align with buffs and stuff

boreal patrol
#

Enforcing those exact timings for every window did not show up as a gain, hence my TB recommendation, but as you can see these timings are pretty much exactly what happens.

muted osprey
#

Ah nvm, I don't know maths LUL my bad

#

Ty for all the help as always LULW

quartz tartan
#

Hey, I think I may have found a gain on assassination condensed life force usage in single target. I was thinking, that when you use the condensed major, you have a guaranteed 30 second uptime on the condensed life-force debuff, (the one that increases your damage done by 5%) since every time the elemental casts Azerite Spike, it puts the debuff on the target and it constantly refreshes itself as long as the elemental is up. Now in a 5 minute fight, you get 3 vendetta windows, and only 2 CDL uses. I found a gain in personal sims by pushing back the second CDL use for my 3rd vendetta, since in a 5 minute fight, I wouldnt lose a cast of CDL anyway and i figured having the 5% extra damage on 3rd vendetta would be better than using it off cd at 3 minutes, without vendetta.

#

now this is all based on fight length, if you would lose a cast of CDL by holding it for a vendetta, it would be a loss, but if you wont get another cast of CDL for the remainder of fight regardless, i think it might be worth holding until final vendetta.

knotty oriole
#

Yeah I presume it would be something like if(cooldown.vendetta.remains<1|debuff.vendetta.up|cooldown.vendetta.remains>target.time_to_die|target.time_to_die<30)

quartz tartan
#

yeah i was trying to make a line to reflect something like that but im not too well-versed in writing apls. the line i added only told CDL to activate when vendetta was about to come off cd, which works in a 5 minute sim since you're only getting 2 CDLs anyway, but would not be good for longer fight lengths where you could lose a CDL use.

#

may be something to look at though.

knotty oriole
#

Still causing a minor loss on like a 7 minute fight, need to mess with it a little bit more

golden briar
#

just make sure it doesn't lose casts tbh

knotty oriole
#

Definitely a gain in situations where it's off by one though

golden briar
#

on a 7 min fight, it overlaps naturally at 6 anyway

knotty oriole
#

0.7% gain for a 5 minute situation, 0.9% loss on 7 min

golden briar
#

so no point delaying

quartz tartan
#

yeah. holding CDL for 3rd vendetta on a 7 minute fight would be a loss, since you would be losing a cast of CDL.

muted osprey
#

Has to be 8 min for dps gain again

quartz tartan
#

yeah

golden briar
#

not even on 8 min prolly

#

on 8 min fight it aligns on pull and 6 min naturally, if you delay it's on pull and 4 min in, still only 2 align and 1 doesn't

muted osprey
#

Ah, right

#

So it's specific to like, 5 min fights

golden briar
#

like, a 9 min fight would probably make it worth saving for 4 and 8

muted osprey
#

Yeah

golden briar
#

but 9 min fights are extremely rare

knotty oriole
#

Well it's relevant on any 4-6:something fight

#

Which to be fair is a big chunk of them

golden briar
#

4.30-6 probably

muted osprey
#

4:30

knotty oriole
#

Going to run with this

muted osprey
#

Ye

knotty oriole
#

"if=cooldown.vendetta.remains<3|debuff.vendetta.up|cooldown.vendetta.remains>target.time_to_die|target.time_to_die>cooldown|target.time_to_die<30"

#

Neutral on 7 min fights, still has the gain on the middle ranges

quartz tartan
#

i think it would be a gain again on 9 minutes. you would use CDL on pull, at 4 w/ vendetta. at 8 w/ vendetta, as opposed to default which would use on pull w/ vendetta, 3 mins w/o, 6 mins w/.

golden briar
#

yea we said that 😛

quartz tartan
#

first way would overlap 3 CDLs with vendetta, while default apl would only have 2 overlaps, and neither lose a cast of CDL.

golden briar
#

but 9 min fights are rare

muted osprey
#

What's azshara at?

quartz tartan
#

fastest azshara so far is 11:37

#

well only 1 public log

golden briar
#

this is kinda going off-topic, we've already established that if no casts are lost, CLF should be aligned with vendetta

#

kinda cluttering the channel

knotty oriole
#

The change above is relatively simple

#

It tries to align with Vendetta as long as the cooldown on Vendetta isn't > fight length

#

And if the fight length is < 3 minutes

golden briar
#

but it won't align at 4 on a 9 min fight with what you wrote

knotty oriole
#

Yeah perhaps not although it's not a loss either. Just the same as how it is now

golden briar
#

i don't know much about apl stuff but if there's a way to pre-calculate the number of casts without delaying and with delaying and compare the 2

#

maybe do that 😄

#

or idk, i'm not 5Head enough for this, i just feelycraft my way through life

knotty oriole
#

Doing cooldown alignment in advance is always a bit tricky

# 
actions.essences+=/guardian_of_azeroth,if=cooldown.vendetta.remains<3|debuff.vendetta.up|target.time_to_die<30|floor((target.time_to_die-20)%180)>floor((target.time_to_die-20)%120)
#

Think that should work

#

Gonna mess with it some more to account for VoP cdr though

golden briar
#

VoP on assa pepehands

knotty oriole
#

Eh well you know

#

It's a terrible idea but still shouldn't break it on purpose 😛

quartz tartan
#

sick. i just tried that line compared to default and its a gain on 5, 7, and 9 minute fight lengths

#

im sure you knew that already though.

knotty oriole
#

Looking at making it a little cleaner.. but trying a couple things

#

A few ways of doing this 😃

# 
actions.essences+=/guardian_of_azeroth,if=cooldown.vendetta.remains<3|debuff.vendetta.up|target.time_to_die<30
actions.essences+=/guardian_of_azeroth,if=floor((target.time_to_die-30)%cooldown)>floor((target.time_to_die-30-cooldown.vendetta.remains)%cooldown)
#

Mostly happy with that. If anyone finds anything better, ping me 😛

quartz tartan
#

i just tried that in a 9 minute sim, and it used it on pull with vendetta, at 4 with vendetta, but then at 7 minutes off cd instead of waiting for 8 minutes to use with vendetta. im not sure how you could change that in the line, but 9 minute fights are pretty rare. worked properly in every other fight duration i checked though.

knotty oriole
#

Worked fine with 9 min for me

#

If you have vary_combat_length on it's possible that iteration was slightly shorter than 9 minutes

#

Default is 20%

quartz tartan
#

ahhhh youre right

knotty oriole
#

The condition above makes sure you get the full 30s duration. I tested this an partial duration casts weren't worth it

#

Was a previous version I had which was casting with like 20s up and it aligned with Vendetta but still was slightly worse

quartz tartan
#

yeah you were right, works properly now for me without vary_combat_lenght. nice work 😃

golden briar
#

i assume this will be in the next nightly?

knotty oriole
#

Yeah should be, just checked it in

devout palm
#

how would i go about simming the dps value of each rtb buff for my own character? using the loaded dice + vision build and it would be nice to know what combos are worth gambling if i have a LD proc + AR off cd

#

big sim noob here

floral thistle
#

there is a command you can use to force specific rtb buffs

#

I can't find the documentation on it right now as I'm on mobile

boreal patrol
#

And make sure to disable rerolling in the APL for it.

devout palm
#

thanks!

#

so what would be the proper method of evaluating the dps values of each buff? my initial thought is to just run a 45 second sim to replicate the length of a rtb

regal agate
#

change:
actions.finish+=/roll_the_bones,if=buff.roll_the_bones.remains<=3|variable.rtb_reroll
to
actions.finish+=/roll_the_bones,if=buff.roll_the_bones.remains<=3
in the apl

golden briar
#

45 sec fight would have AR for 20 sec out of 45 🤷

devout palm
#

forgot to mention i would also disable AR

boreal patrol
#

I don't see why you wanna sim 45s. Just make that APL change and then create multiple copies with fixed rtb and look at the buffs values.

devout palm
#

alright

golden briar
#

disabling ar also doesn't help because you'd have it sometimes in reality 🤷

devout palm
#

I wanted to measure the exact value of keeping a set of buffs vs gambling for better 2 buff, hence why it seemed logical to me to set the sim length to 45 seconds (the length of the buff)

golden briar
#

disabling AR in the rotation significantly reduces the value of TB for example

#

and having it on for 20/45 sec reduces value of BT, for example

devout palm
#

well yeah for sure but that would be a different set of sims I would evaluate

#

buff values with AR and not

knotty oriole
#

It’s fine to just run it normal length just without any reroll logic.

#

Short duration fights are inaccurate because you won’t be properly simming against the variance in energy/proc/buff conditions you would see during a normal fight.

prime terrace
boreal patrol
#

sure

cedar urchin
#

Has anyone explored using bote 3 major with visions minor? Feely would suggest to me that stacking 25% + crit with 25% extra crit damage every 1 min 40 seconds with vendetta would be big, but I don’t have enough knowledge to test a custom apl

golden briar
#

visions minor is just bad because it desyncs your vanish from your vendetta, and while syncing bote and vendetta might seem like a great thing, it's probably not very good compared to other minors

cedar urchin
#

Yeah fair, I understand. I’d be curious to see how much of a loss it is though.

empty vortex
#

Maybe you can change apl slightly but it's largely a lost cause

cedar urchin
#

That’s gross. Wasn’t sure if the APL has been optimised for such a config.

golden briar
#

has any research been done on replacing ruprute in the assa opener with env if the first mut gives 4 cp?

#

i've been doing it cuz feelycraft but i wouldn't mind some concrete numbers 😃

#

basically mut-env-mut-gar-rup-CLF-vend

#

my gut tells me 50% bonus crit chance on a 4cp env has more value than a tick of rupture but, as i said, i wouldn't mind confirmation (or being proven wrong)

verbal latch
#

You rupture to get the energy regen going, so i would probably doubt it.

golden briar
#

as i said, you only delay rupture by 3 globals (~12 energy by my calculations) and prevent overcapping combo points with first TB

#

with lust on pull and a NP trait, i don't think energy is an issue in the opener and i feel like 50% bonus crit on that envenom could outweigh it

muted osprey
#

has there been a change to force multi? There seems to be a big drop in damage

empty vortex
#

might just be you

#

@muted osprey

muted osprey
#

It's not me, I'm just seeing a lot of people (including other classes) having issues with it

#

It's a 0.2% increase for me still.

knotty oriole
#

I mean it’s naturally very unstable since it’s based on your stats. Lots of reasons why it could have changed.

muted osprey
#

Is there some way to sim someone dying with loyal on, just to see how much of a potential gain it is in certain situations where you could utilise it?

boreal patrol
velvet shard
#

i have not been able to find anything more recent, however.

devout palm
#

ty!!

regal agate
knotty oriole
#

I posted some breakdowns on this in this channel a few times more recently in the past. But ultimately it has informed the current reroll logic

golden briar
#

relative values of 2-buff combinations could be important if any1 ever plays loaded dice 😛 if LD is up and you have 10 sec remaining on your current 2-buff, what are the odds that rerolling will give you a better 2-buff?

willow knoll
#

I've been meaning to find that out, but i dont think anybody has actually looked into it so far

golden briar
#

once LD becomes better, such research will have to be done 😄

#

by once, i mean if it ever becomes better

knotty oriole
#

I have looked into it already. So far nothing major

#

There are a couple bad 2 buffs but it's not by a lot

#

Didn't seem worth enough to reroll off of them, even though they were technically bad

golden briar
#

i mean

#

if the expected value of rolling with loaded dice up is higher than the value of current 2-buff, it's worth taking advantage of pandemic with it

knotty oriole
#

Well, maybe

#

Ideally the maximum benefit of LD is to convert a worse 1 buff into a 2 buff

golden briar
#

LD + vision is the 5Head play with 100% uptime on 2-buff 😄

knotty oriole
#

Yeah I've tried to make it work and it's close but not quite there

#

Might be able to figure something out

maiden cargo
boreal patrol
#

yes, 16 is the previous value adjusted to the hotfix. Koji just forgot to change that. I'll update it next time I push.

knotty oriole
#

I didn't forget, I just didn't feel like running 100k iteration sims on my local machine. 😃

#

Error is 23 DPS

#

11 or 12 is probably fine

boreal patrol
#

Yeah, in any case it's so marginal that you can do anything really. I'd prolly have changed it to 15 because it is an easy number to remember. 🤷

knotty oriole
#

Basically once you get up to around 70% proc chance seems like

golden briar
#

not sure if this belongs in this channel, but when you get the buff on azshara, is it even worth casting rupture? i assume with a lot of haste you get more ticks so it should be worth but also just spamming muti-env feels better

knotty oriole
#

Given that Rupture scales 100% from Haste I can’t see why one wouldn’t cast it. Rupture still does the highest DPET of any ability.

golden briar
#

yea i realised that after doing the envenom spam

hazy sorrel
#

Hey do you know if there is a way to setup your energy at 150 for the whole fight in simc ? (infinite energy)
infinite_energy=1 doesn't seem to be working, raidbot giving me an error

golden briar
#

to follow up on my previous question: garrote's DPET seems high, but since it only gives 1cp idk if it's worth casting

neat obsidian
#

Question about treacherous covenant setting in raidbots, if I change that to 50%, does it also affect undulating tides proc? (ie. it works by setting HP levels) Or does it work by only activating TC at intervals, and not affecting UT at all (ie. assuming 100% uptime)? Hope my question is understandable 😃

regal agate
neat obsidian
#

Ahh OK, so TC setting is thus only for TC and for simming 50% UT uptime I need to use these strings?

regal agate
#

you need to do that for both, raidbots just does it for you with the interface option for TC.
you probably can put it in the custom apl section and it should work (if not use advanced sim)

vagrant quail
#

anyone know how i can sim teh 2% benthic for Aberrations ?

regal agate
#

that question is better suited for spec channels, its also pinned in those.

onyx spruce
#

is there a way to do a custom fight length on top gear? Like a 4 minute 30 second fight for instance

cerulean ridge
#

so if i ignore that and play like normal its only ~50 DPS loss?

knotty oriole
#

Default at the time was 10

#

The old value

cerulean ridge
#

how much of a gain is this anyways? or jsut so i get the logic, can i look at me tooltip dmg value and do 200% of SS vs 250% of PS?

prime terrace
#

i was gonna say it's easy; just add a copy to the sim linked with the wits check removed, but i tried and it seems like it changed nothing cause the sim is using the base profile with no wits traits equipped (either that or i'm moronic, one of the two)

boreal patrol
#

i'd use the DS profile for checking aoe with wits

muted osprey
#

Is there a bigger diff between the old garrote opener and mut opener for MA sin on 2t or is it similar numbers?

empty vortex
#

From a feelycraft point of view (azshara p1 is on my mind) I like doing garrote as first ability so it comes off sooner to dot 2nd add

#

Means I can start cds sooner as well

halcyon falcon
#

I'd just start cds right after 2nd rupture, with 2 ruptures and 1 garrote out, your energyregen is good enough with np etc. Id just use 2nd gar after MA window fades and im at 3-4 cps

rustic ibex
#

I just got an inkpod and was wondering what affects it's damage and what doesn't. Apparently rogue-modifiers such as Toxic Blade, Vendetta or the crit from Vanish don't. However no1 could tell me if the raid essence or the debuff from Za'qul do. Does anybody know?

regal agate
#

Yes, none of the class/spec modifiers work on any trinket ;)
The za'qul haste buff should work there.
Essences should work too.

rustic ibex
#

Oh I didn't mean the haste buff (altho does haste even affect the trinket at all except for application rate?). I meant the debuff the boss gets where he takes increase dmg when the void explodes.

golden briar
#

coral is good to stack up and just pop before inkpod goes off so it's high crit chance

rustic ibex
#

Is there still a downloadable desktop version for simcraft like there used to be before raidbots or is it just raidbots now?

boreal patrol
grand urchin
#

Got a question regarding DungeonSlice sim.

#

It has lust in it, but it's a 5 min sim, wouldn't it be more accurate to be a 10 min sim so that lust doesn't decrease the value of haste?

raw knoll
#

It's meant to minic a 6 minute ”slice” of a dungeon with a boss encounter and trash packs.

#

Seriallos has all the info of what it's meant to do on his raidbots blog.

grand urchin
#

My point was that lust might skew stat weights since on a 6 min slice, the uptime on lust is 12.5% while on a 10 min slice it's 7.5%.

#

And in reality, lust will have at the very most have 7.5% uptime, and that is if you use it on CD.

#

So having to treat lust with 12.5% uptime, is almost double of what you`ll ever have in reality.. you can see how that can skew stats.

raw knoll
#

lust is used on the boss. that's it.

#

Boss is 2 mins of the 6 mins.

#

Go take the haste talk back to outlaw. Clearly you didn't read the pinned message in here for the purpose of the channel.

maiden cargo
grand urchin
#

Can someone that's smarter than I am with APL, make a custom APL that checks whether it's best to always use BTE with 6 combo when NOT having Broadsides active and 3x Ace in the hole traits?

raw knoll
#

Check pins for channel guidelines @grand urchin and ask in #outlaw

regal agate
golden briar
#

with 3 aces and crit buff up, i always go to 6cp (feelycraft) because the dmg is HUGE and feels like overcapping 1 cp is worth, but as i said feelies

grand urchin
#

Currently having Mystler look into this.

#

His findings:

#

ok, guess that is due to higher gear budgets we're reaching. seems to kick in at 2+ Ace with either Vigor or DS
pretty marginal but still a gain
I won't push it right away, but noted it down and will look into making it default soon
Thanks

#

Basically at 2 or 3 ace traits, it's a small gain to always do 6 CP BTE.

regal agate
#

ah okay, so basically without the "broadside" reuqirement

#

nice find 👍

inner crescent
#

Hey guys what raidbots option do i use to simulate a m+ dungeon cause if using dungenslice it seems like its not giving best results. Cause for me it says i should play iris but everyone is playing blood of the enemy....

muted osprey
#

This isn't a question for this channel, refer to #assassination or #outlaw for this question @inner crescent

true knoll
#

how do i change bossfightlength from 120sec to 150 sec ?

regal agate
#

Please take your time to read the channel pin.
To still answer your qustion: max_time="150"

true knoll
#

my problem is by max_time i got a error that this is not a valid command

regal agate
#

use advanced sim

plucky mural
#

Does dungeon slice even allow changes to time?

regal agate
#

no

fossil rover
#

as for the "when at 2-3 Ace traits its worth to BtE with 6cp" if the broadside rule doesnt apply, does the opportunity proc also fall under the same exception? Or would you want to just consume the proc to cap at 6 without broadside up?

maiden cargo
#

broadside and opportunity are the only things that alter finisher cp, so if they are both exceptions then we're back to the old finisher logic. If I'm reading your question right

fossil rover
#

kk

glossy flower
#

I think you just ignore the op proc @fossil rover

#

ss once more

#

In order to follow the new rle

fossil rover
#

so to clarify, if only 1 exception is there; you'd just SS to cap. but if both are present, you'd follow old logic

maiden cargo
#

oooh I see what you're asking. Not sure how mystler implemented it then. Would like to see the new apl for that

fossil rover
#

yeye, i saw the post from Adrian but no clarification on what was really changed

#

or if its yeeting the old exceptions or not i should say

#

from whats been posted the exceptions might still apply regardless

glossy flower
#

It was as long as broadsides wasn't present

#

If BS was there you don't do it

maiden cargo
#

whoops, didn't know it was pushed to the default apl already

maiden cargo
grand urchin
#

@glossy flower according to @boreal patrol you always use 6CP BTE, even if broadsides.

#

Even if you're at 5 CP, and have OPP proc and Broadsides as buff, you do 1 sinister to reach 6 CP.

boreal patrol
#

Yes, all that was changed was the finisher threshold to be maximum CP if you're going to use BtE. This includes using PS with Opportunity procs as a builder.

inland herald
#

@boreal patrol do the stat weights take into account when you have benthic boots

#

so value crit higher?

boreal patrol
#

of course, stat weights are accounting for everything you have in a sim

#

assuming nazjatar is enabled

golden briar
#

if i'm not mistaken, stat weights do a quick sim with your current gear, then add a certain amount of stat to it and sim again, and divide the dps gain by the amount of stat added

#

that's why stat weight sims take so long usually

#

it's like running 5 quick sims

#

or even more, considering it's 4 secondaries, primary, MH and OH dmg

regal agate
weary scroll
knotty oriole
#

Looking at this, you may be correct. At least for the 20% part. The additional 40% for BtE would not be affected. Looks like it was not converted to check the whitelist for BfA.

willow knoll
#

so its potentially been wrong the whole expac?

knotty oriole
#

Yeah although the actual impact is probably not nearly as large as you’d think

willow knoll
#

yeah i wouldnt think so

knotty oriole
#

Will affect some procs and Azerite and such that use composite melee crit chance

#

A fair amount of the procs use spell Crit chance and wouldn’t be affected

#

But yeah that is unfortunate for sure. Not quite certain how that flew under the radar.

#

RP is so far ahead of everything else that it probably doesn’t change the RtB priority though.

#

But it does mean I will have to rerun a bunch of RtB sims just to be sure. FeelsBadMan

willow knoll
#

yeah, glhf, keep us posted on all this

knotty oriole
remote granite
#

inb4 we actually want to keep TB for more btes blobsad

knotty oriole
#

I have checked in a fix for this. I haven't done any testing of RtB logic since I'll wait for Raidbots to be updated in lieu of setting my PC on fire with the billions of iterations needed

#

It's fairly notable of a difference in the example above due to it being an AoE sim with lots of Azerite damage, although it likely was floating under the radar prior to recent times just due to the much lower contribution of non-ability damage sources before Essences came into play

#

As some insight as to why it was missed, Mystler and I looked into it and it's been hiding in a bit of an odd spot for quite a long time. It looked like it was correctly being applied to just the ability class but was on the player from the old implementation instead.

#

Unfortunate miss on our part, but such is the life many thousands of lines of code 😦

#

Will run some more specific tests on how the RtB logic holds up in the next day or two.

#

In an unrelated note, I have also updated the Lucid Dreams proc chance for Assassination from 13.5% to 15% based on updated testing. It looks like the phantom 10% nerf it had for a long time on PTR and after initial 8.2 patch is no longer in place. (It was reported, but a fix was never mentioned in any patch notes.)

#

Guessing it was an 8.2.5 related change, but hard to say for certain when it changed since it's not in spell data

knotty oriole
#

10/16 Update: Raidbots Nightly should be updated now. Didn't have a chance to run RtB sims today at work, but will look tonight after raid and during the day tomorrow!

ashen crater
#

I've been playing around with the assassination APL to try to better optimize for subterfuge. It looks like it's better to vanish about 12s into the fight and reapply garrote, then use vendetta. That way all future vendetta and vanish usages line up.

knotty oriole
#

I’m actually surprised this makes any difference since they should be force synced for the 2nd usage anyway

#

Does it hold true at various fight lengths?

ashen crater
#

It wasn't syncing in default was the problem. I ran the sim over a 50% variable length time centered at 6 minutes.

#

Font logic is also written assuming vendetta is used as soon as it comes off cooldown.

#

Actually, it looks like I used the wrong APL for the default in my first run. I'll rerun and share new results.

regal agate
#

nice

knotty oriole
#

Ok interesting. I’ll probably take a look at what broke with the syncing logic also. Because that was definitely working before since it was needed to sync with Galecallers and such.

#

Maybe it had some conditionals where it is only kicking in with SS or something.

ashen crater
#

It looks like the problem isn't that vanish and vendetta aren't lining up, but rather that font isn't lining up with vanish/vendetta.

knotty oriole
#

Font typically gets used 14s before Vendetta comes off cooldown but that could be poor when Vendetta is getting delayed to resync with Vanish

grand urchin
#

Koji, did you by any chance have the time to run the RtB sims?

#

Super curious as I had a feelycraft of not rerolling Broadsides sometimes.

regal agate
knotty oriole
#

Yes I don't think it has enough of a large impact to completely change reroll logic, just minimizes the impact a little

#

Could potentially change some of the 2x combos but I am looking at that this weekend

grand urchin
#

Thank you fuu, that just confirmed my feelycraft. Sometimes during BotE + AR stack I`d keep BS and it felt not bad.

maiden cargo
#

wonder if someone can help me real quick, i'm trying to run a sim where alacrity is already at max and doesn't need time to ramp

#

I want to edit the spell data, and looking at it, the second id 342821 is for the percent per combo points. However, even setting it to 100%, it still won't proc more than twice per finisher. (If it would proc to max on the first finisher than that would essentially be the same as having max alacrity already active from the beginning)

📎 Capture.PNG
#

But I can't seem to figure out what the first ID 283935 even does

#

it looks like it's something to trigger the alacrity spell itself

#

anyway, so i'm not sure if what i'm trying to do is possible, wonder if someone else more experienced with this stuff can chime in

#

and why simc doesn't extract the haste value or the timer, or if im missing something

boreal patrol
#

Yeah, there is still the stacking mechanism in the code. You can probably combine multiple overrides to make it 1 stack max with the value for all of them. Tbh, for what you have in mind it may be a better and easier approximation to just disable alacrity and add the flat haste amount to your profile.

maiden cargo
#

good idea

knotty oriole
#

@ashen crater looking into this some more this week to figure out a good way to integrate it. A few things I have found:

  1. I gain about half the gain worth by just syncing up Font better with Vanish (no other modifications)
  2. The vanish change alone seems to have some fight length boundry advantages (some fight lengths it just as large of a gain without the Vendetta sync condition you added, other fights it does nothing by itself)
  3. The Vendetta sync change alone doesn't do anything without the Vanish part
  4. This only seems to be a gain for SS, when I tried it on a profile without SS traits it was a 1.2% loss

So I think the timings for the Vanish have some advantages for SS, but still trying to figure out what the exact cause is. At the very least I will put in the Font syncing logic since it is simple (check the max of Vanish and Vendetta cooldown w/ Subterfuge instead of only Vendetta) and has no negative effects on other setups. But trying to figure out what specifically the gain for the SS case is to refresh so early by using Vanish before pandemic.

ashen crater
#

interesting

static cape
#

How do i view the current APL that is in use on Raidbots/Simc?

maiden cargo
#

also sim -> html report -> scroll down to apl

static cape
#

Thanks @maiden cargo - I saw the github link but wanted to confirm that it was actually in use in simc

static cape
#

I'm trying to edit the APL to test if it's ever worth sitting @ capped energy, or over capping cp's if BTE has less than [1 to x] seconds on its cooldown remaining.

I assume this is done by adding a wait action, on the condition if the bte cooldown is less than a specified number, and wait for that same amount of time, but i'm struggling to get that done.

static cape
#

I think I've done this by adding

actions+=/sinister_strike,if=(cooldown.between_the_eyes.remains<5)&(cooldown.between_the_eyes.remains>0)

Just above the '#Finish at Maximum CP" line.
But some confirmation if that would be correct would be good 🙂

And.. is there a way to log mark of any sort to show this line occuring in the sample sequence?

maiden cargo
#

You might have to alter actions.build+=/sinister_strike at the end

#

That condition you wrote would only use SS if BtE is on cooldown, but you have to build CP to use BtE, so it would sit at zero cp forever

static cape
#

The log sequence showed otherwise, and looks like it worked as I intended.

maiden cargo
#

Okay

#

I see, it would just skip over that line if the condition is not met and move on to using a finisher

crude charm
#

Are there any stats on how frequently Subtlety rogues energy cap or use sub-max CP finishers? I'm not familiar with what data Sims are able to get for us.

plucky mural
#

@crude charm you cause use logs to find this. here is a very high sub performance for at ST fight.

#

You can see the sub 6cp finishers as well.

modern mural
#

Do you know if any 8.3 sims have already been carried out to see how well rogues will perform in the raid ? If not, any rough idea would be great as well ! More generally, what class do you think will be on top of the list knowing the encounters ?

boreal patrol
#

Not really any news on the sim front, a lot of 8.3 stuff has not been implemented yet. For the outlook, I heard there is a popular Preach video. 😏

unkempt sail
#

Is it that time of the year again?

raw knoll
#

people just figuring out if they want to waste time on essences only to be disappointed that Sub still isn’t meta.

maiden cargo
#

I think dancing steel is causing blade flurry's damage to be 40% instead of 35%. In some cases it is 36.36% and I don't know why

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/xgV9MD7rp4T8wAjY/#fight=last&type=damage-done&source=1&view=events here is a log with dancing steel (target dummies)

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/NXdpLV1FBDqat6wA/#fight=last&type=damage-done&source=1&view=events here is a log without dancing steel (target dummies)

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wTgfQPHKZW91d42L/#fight=last&type=damage-done&view=events&source=1 here is an m+ log.

as far as I know critical strikes don't seem to matter, also between the eyes during blood of the enemy seems to always be 36.36% with dancing steel, never 40%. Unsure about other abilities during blood

knotty oriole
#

@maiden cargo It could be due to the Rend of Kimbul zone debuff, which is super wonky and interacts in a bunch of odd ways. (Has caused problems for me in the past for training dummies when I forget about it.) You may want to test in Dalaran or something

maiden cargo
#

@knotty oriole In the m+ log my BF damage is mostly 40%

#

And sometimes 36.36%, but never 35

#

So I assumed it was not some 'overworld' interaction but will look in Dal

teal verge
#

nevermind, disregard

#

im dumb

boreal patrol
#

profile is a WIP

teal verge
#

yeah i forgot that stat proc was more corruption than static stats is why i was confused

boreal patrol
#

Some things are NYI, I haven't updated corruptions yet (barely pulled the latest hotfixes today), and the corruption stat sum also appears to have issues.

teal verge
#

yeah all good, was just comparing to dk as thats what ive worked on some and didnt remember that different things have differing corruption values (which is a terrible part of the system, imo)

cobalt hare
#

Has there been any updates/progress on the assa profile or we still lookin like 75k w/ corruption?

knotty oriole
#

Think Mystler updated the profile which is around 88k or something with Corruption. But things still are WIP

high blade
#

are there any updates about the new race sims? is vulpera viable?

boreal patrol
#

Vulpera are not implemented yet

high blade
#

alright thank you

muted osprey
#

@boreal patrol Is there some reason for lucid major's spike in value?

#

It was consistantly mid tier last tier what has made it spike in all these sims

boreal patrol
#

lucid was always simming top tier as a standalone essence

muted osprey
#

Seems a bit extreme for it to be beating blood etc

empty vortex
#

is clf nerf implemented yet

vagrant quail
#

crit dmg is low there it's really strange considering its worth 60 ilvl on nazjatar boots

#

at 3% only

empty vortex
#

idk

#

something just feels off

boreal patrol
#

yes, CLF nerf is in

vagrant quail
#

if corruption is really that powefull

#

everyone will be usign biss WQ items lol

empty vortex
#

lucid is showing up as basically 3rd best major

regal agate
#

pls consider discussing your sims in the spec channels.

knotty oriole
#

@vagrant quail Those things aren’t exclusive. Boot slot value is so low that 60 ilevels actually isn’t anything to write home about.

#

In relative terms in that slot the crit affix was worth a lot more in terms of ilevel. But that doesn’t mean it was a large percentage increase either.

#

Most of the Nazjatar affixes were only worth 1-2% but still better than 50+ ilevels in the low value slots.

#

@muted osprey Lucid pretty much always simmed better than BotE for Assassination. CLF was just better before the nerf. The other issue is the delta between Major and Minor value. Much of Lucid’s value was in the minor so the relative gain for using BotE or CLF major can still make sense in certain configurations. It will depend on if you have 3 or 4 slots unlocked yet. If you are simming with 3 slots but testing Breath of the Dying, Breath is very competitive as a minor as well and shuffled around the slot values.

#

Everything about Essences is very particular to individual setups.

#

With WV being much stronger now and Breath being a very good minor, it’s got a lot of options.

muted osprey
#

Yeah I mean I accounted for lucid always being a static minor, blood's been simming higher than lucid in the major slot the entire tier though, so has clf.

#

I'm just confused what makes the major part so strong all of the sudden, since before it was ny far the strongest minor but the major itself was outclassed by the likes of blood, although that seems to have flipped.

knotty oriole
#

Blood has never simmed better for me for ST. Most of its value is in the AoE splash imo.

#

Lucid major has always been great for Assassination given how much downtime it has.

#

The relative value of both depends on your Haste and Crit levels also

muted osprey
#

I mean the week pre-clf I remember the people who hard farmed blood got a significant dps increase

knotty oriole
#

Losing the Crit multiplier from Benthic lowers the value of BotE immediately.

muted osprey
#

Doesn't it stack pretty poorly?

knotty oriole
#

BotE was a large increase in early weeks but Lucid R3 was time gated also.

#

Boots affix was multiplicative with everything.

muted osprey
#

Yeah but the r3 lucid is only an addition to the minor proc, isn't it?

knotty oriole
#

Lucid R2 is quite a bit below BotE R3

#

Anyway. All depends on stats and situation. Essences are quite variable.

#

BotE still obviously good in AoE.

muted osprey
#

Yeah the diff is very minor but I don't think anyone's even had the thought to run lucid major for a long time, and the general consensus going into the shifting of CLF would be bote/new/buffed wv being bis, just a bit of a curveball for me personally.

knotty oriole
#

Affix differences are subtle but when things are close it can matter.

#

Similarly if someone does end up with Crit corruption stuff for example then BotE would see increased value.

muted osprey
#

Yeah, I've been expecting exactly that. Thanks for the help as always.

cunning viper
#

guildy was saying WV was still bugged, anyone can confirm this?

maiden cargo
#

bugged in what way

cunning viper
#

that when shards drop while others are expiring then you don't get the buff from the new shards unless you move out of their radius then back in

maiden cargo
#

if it's not about how it is implemented in simc then it probably isn't for this channel, but yes i've been using it and noticed some shards glowing like they are active but didn't have the buff

cunning viper
#

Sorry, I figured you guys would have a better idea about it for w/e reason. Thanks for your input.

knotty oriole
#

SimC has support for some of the bugs like the refresh delays afaik

#

Generally speaking, the advice I always gave was to use 3 allies because it simulated the roughly uptime of the max stack buff with the refresh issues, but I'd have to look into what the bug/refresh implementation in the code looks like now

boreal patrol
#

Afaik, the shard count on the buff is refreshed on a delay and Simc should respect that issue. There are some more weird delays to WV that can make the buff slightly longer or processed in bulks of stacks but that should not have a big impact on the sim.

cunning viper
#

Thanks guys, I suppose I can look at WV being more viable than just a potential 'sim trap'.

boreal patrol
#

Some other guy(s) in the SimC Team went over the implementation with 8.3 PTR. For the sake of completeness and for people that are interested, here are the notes they added to the corresponding code:

// The shards & resultant buff in-game exhibits various small delays in their timings:
// 1) the buff is not applied immediately upon the shard being summoned (NYI)
// 2) the buff duration varies from ~17.8s to ~19s with possibly discrete intervals (NYI)
// 3) shards summoned within a small timeframe can have their buffs grouped up and applied all at once, as well as have
// the buff expirations grouped up and expiring all at once. the application grouping and expiration grouping can be
// different (NYI)
// 4) only four stacks of the buff is applied at a time. when a shard expires the buff is decremented by a stack
// regardless of how many shards exist. after a short delay the buff is re-adjusted upwards if enough shards exist to
// refill the decremented stack (Implemented, TODO: further investigate range/distribution of delay)```
For the update delay:
```// testing data shows an exponential variable-like distribution of the delay times, with 0.636s mean and highest
// gap seen was 1.923s. for now implement as an exponential variable with a mean of 0.636 generated by a uniform
// distribution on the interval [0.048, 1] (0.048 derived from exp(-1.93/0.636)).```
sage estuary
#

Outlaw profile on herodamage shows Lash Of The Void simming slightly higher than infinite stars (even more of a difference on multitarget), yet the traits section is using infinite stars as the corruption of choice. Is there a particular reason for this choice, or are you waiting with putting the work in for a new profile until the pace of changes has calmed down?

boreal patrol
#

Do you mean the default profile? LotV has a slightly better DPS per Corruption but comes with a different Tier of Corruption it has. For combinations that are ok for the profile rules IS should be the better fit. (You can switch corruption charts on HeroDamage if you didn't notice.)

📎 unknown.png
#

IS 50 + IS 20 + LotV 25 might be an alternative that should be close. I can check and update later but then, I expect more hotfixes anyway. (Edit: It is a bit better, updated the profile.)

muted osprey
#

Just to double check, is it just the introduction of inf stars onto the gear pieces that has shot all the stat traits sky high in comparison to t24 sims?

📎 unknown.png
#

That's my assumption anyways.

boreal patrol
#

No, that's secondary stats "scaling out of proportion" as we go higher in item levels

#

it looks similar without any corruptions

muted osprey
#

Aight.

boreal patrol
#

Oh, those sims are not using fully scaled up power levels though, so the effect is exaggerated. Fixed it in my script, you can expect spec powers to rank a bit better again with the next update.

muted osprey
#

Oh dope. Appreciate it.

maiden cargo
knotty oriole
#

I will look at VoP but, I will note, I don't think we are going to micromanage the default profiles too much this tier. They are unlikely to be published anywhere and so much of this patch is just going to come down to personal sims.

That being said, the reroll priority updates are interesting. Seems worth checking out. Not sure if changing the full logic is the solution over changing the conditionals though. Could just be some logic change for when we don't have any Ace traits. (Which the default profile doesn't have.)

#

The default profiles with triple Blitz are kinda locally optimized in a way for maximizing IS damage, so they could be slightly a degenerate case though. So that may be worth considering.

maiden cargo
#

Could just be some logic change for when we don't have any Ace traits.

right, and that's how I changed the apl, the rtb_reroll variable for without ace or deadshot

knotty oriole
#

I would be interested to see if that holds without IS

vagrant quail
#

can we have combination with 4 essences ? everyone hould already have unlocked the 4° slot

knotty oriole
#

How do you mean?

maiden cargo
#

Think he means the 'combinations' section of herodamage

boreal patrol
#

Can't promise anything about 4 essence combinations yet. A full HD update sim already takes very long and 4E would blow that completely. We're still deciding on the topic.

west prism
#

Do you have any numbers on how big the corruption nerfs were?

boreal patrol
#

Not yet, working on some tests and adjustments

willow bison
#

Are there any plans, or is it even possible, to have formless void minor incorporated into sims?

vagrant quail
#

mystler maybe you could reduce 4 essence combinations to only the top ones. half of them are really bad and dont need to be even considered

boreal patrol
#

Okay, I went through the item level scaling changes in the hotfix notes and changed the implementations in simc. They should be correct but it is based on pure spell data as I do not have any of the affected corruptions myself. The hotfix updates should appear with the next Raidbots nightly for your own sim convenience. I manually updated the T25 Single Target Corruption charts (only these) for Rogues on Hero Damage to show the new data (based on ilevel 475 for now, I'll be looking into showing different ilevel tiers).

Observations:

  • IS is still the best in head to heads vs other same tier bonuses but has lost its #1 in DPS per corruption.
  • Gushing Wound has taken over that spot and looks to be best if you get to stack it multiple times (regardless of item level). (Default profile will use this 6 times now...)
  • Echoing Void is otherwise the best general effect (because great for AoE and ST) and not affected by item level
  • The LotV effect on the Outlaw weapon is ranking below the above now but still has the advantage that it can be targeted.
regal agate
#

Raidbots did re-build nightly, so changes should be in now.

heavy moth
#

Is there a way I can sim outlaw with certain buffs? As in 5 minutes of just crit, 5 mins of broadside etc..

maiden cargo
#

yes, add fixed_rtb=x at the top of your sim (in advanced sim) where x is 1-6. It's alphabetical so fixed_rtb=1 gives you Broadside permanently. For two buffs you can do fixed_rtb=12 which is Broadsides + Buried Treasure for example. You also need to remove part of the APL that makes you roll, the apl is here https://github.com/Ravenholdt-TC/Rogue/wiki/Outlaw-APL-Research and you need to scroll down to this line

actions.finish+=/roll_the_bones,if=buff.roll_the_bones.remains<=3|variable.rtb_reroll

and remove |variable.rtb_reroll.

In advanced sim you can just paste the new APL after your simc info and it will use it

heavy moth
#

my man, thankyou so much 😄

boreal patrol
vagrant quail
#

is it possible to do a special case with Vita-Charged Titanshard + Void-Twisted Titanshard set bonus ? on trinket charts dont know maybe sum dps gain with them and half it to compare against the others trinkets

rustic ibex
#

If you have both trinkets on, does raidbots calculate for the bonus? Because it doesn't have a statement box for "In Nyalotha"

prime terrace
#

hey, subterfuge+shrouded suffocations interaction with font+coral is really wonky and is causing the builds to underperform massively, i understand it's probably just due to the nature of how it's written for ma but i thought i'd drop a sample sim here incase there's a good simple way around it: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/kNKoXtAsxysEvQq7mRKaa3/simc

font forced at 1:55, but vend and coral held to vanish at 2:31 which leads to no overlap and font wasted entirely, the second window is a little better but has some weird tb interactions

prolly not super important to fix going into a new tier but better to mention than not, i'll try playing around with it myself tomorrow but i'm kinda dumb so

knotty oriole
#

Do you know for sure it is causing them to underperform? SS optimizations are not quite straightforward.

prime terrace
#

i do not, no, if you've done some testing that shows naked font is a gain then i will take your word for it

#

i'll try and get some real information during the day tomorrow but i don't see any way that it'd be the case

golden briar
#

i doubt there's any chance using font separately from vend/vanish/coral/TB combo has any benefits

knotty oriole
#

Well it depends on if Font or Coral is more valuable for SS/Subterfuge. The normal rotation splits the difference in timing because of MA and it works fine but that doesn't mean it will be the case with SS.

muted osprey
#

Wouldn't it still be optimal to get the 14 sec window of having both buffs active inside your vend esp with SS traits ticking the entire time

golden briar
#

exactly

#

font/coral interaction has nothing to do with MA, it's just about the 14 sec overlap of 2 on-use with vend

knotty oriole
#

That is not at all true

#

Font/Coral has a lot to do with MA

#

Because Coral is not good with MA up and Vanish can be used after Vendetta in MA builds

#

Whereas Vanish has to be used immediately with Vendetta for Subterfuge builds

#

Not saying it's not a gain potentially, but I am saying that Font/Coral setup is definitely different for MA because of the timing considerations

muted osprey
#

Yeah I just see it being a gain for subt too

unkempt crescent
#

Why shouldn't it be good to boost whole vendetta and empowered garrotes with font + the overlap with coral

#

The second cds get delayed but thats it

knotty oriole
#

If someone wants to make an APL change that proves it out, that’s fine.

#

Considering Font is unlikely to stick around much longer I don’t think we are likely to spend much time on it.

#

Already put more time into Font/Coral logic than anything in the whole xpac so don’t see too much reason to continue doing it when it’s not going to be relevant much longer honestly. 🙂

#

Can certainly investigate if someone can prove their hypothesis, but also not going to go in blind on it!

zinc pecan
#

I think this all started because people in assa are constantly linking trinket sims and how font is still beating everything by a decent margin. Then some guy linked a 1 SS sim with subt and font was suddenly getting beaten by trinkets it smokes like crazy with MA, so thats why we believe the APL might not be 100% correct. Or atleast thats my understanding.

ashen abyss
#

my 430 coral with socket looks to be better than anything i can get in 8.3, kind of ridiculous. but the interaction with font will disappear in a couple weeks for sure. everyone will use another trink than font

knotty oriole
#

Initial investigations really don’t show this as more than a 0.2-0.3% gain so unless someone can prove our something a lot better, I don’t see too much reason to fuss about it.

willow knoll
#

are sims defaulted to "in nylotha"

#

as in are the ra'den trinkets simming with the set bonus included?

knotty oriole
#

I actually don't think the set bonus is gated behind any sort of conditional

#

So it's probably always active

#

In SimC I mean

muted osprey
#

What do you think kicks off font from its pedestal or do you think it'll get nerfed?

knotty oriole
#

Think I'll probably replace it with Vita at least after the buff and considering the raid benefit

muted osprey
#

Yeah but in pure ego numbers, it's still topping shit by a fair margin is it not?

knotty oriole
#

When I simmed Mythic Vita after the hotfix it was within error margin

#

Even Heroic Vita is only -0.4% for my gear and probably ahead considering the raid buff

#

Depends on if you have a WF Font I guess

#

I only have 445

muted osprey
#

Still a 2% downgrade for me NotLikeDuck

knotty oriole
#

Keep in mind that Haste becomes more valuable as we get more corruption since a lot of the best traits scale from Haste quite well

muted osprey
#

Yuh ofc. On that topic, is gushing wounds as haste-loving as the likes of inf stars?

knotty oriole
#

Yes Gushing Wounds is hasted RPPM

#

Maybe not as crazy as IS though because a lot of the way IS games it is because the downside to IS is the stacking time

#

So the faster you can get to 10 stacks the more you mega pump

muted osprey
#

Yah.

#

I can defo see the value in the vita though, but I've gotta do some jank sims with stuff I don't have to see how far away I am from having it be useful.

knotty oriole
#

Yeah I feel like if it's within like 0.X% or something the raid buff definitely is valuable enough to be worth running it

#

But once I add any ranks of IS, basically Vita becomes equal to Font. In my profile for next cloak resist buff where I'm running IS1 + GW1 + EV3 it is within error margin

#

So probably depends on IS and GW ranks

zinc pecan
#

is it possible to increase the corruption slider or add an option that ignores it all together?

boreal patrol
#

Are you talking about the Raidbots interface? I think that is a question you should rather ask over on the Raidbots discord. 🙂

muted osprey
#

Is there some way of easily implementing the EV nerf that literally just happened? My Ev pieces t2 and t1 dropped from 1.5% / 1% to 1.2% and 0.8%

📎 unknown.png
#

I just wanna see what the drop is

knotty oriole
#

Not aware of any nerf details yet.

muted osprey
#

I can confirm numbers on those tiers

#

I'd assume if it follows smae 20% nerf as t1/2, t3 is 2% post nerfs.

#

This is what I got when I just logged back on for raid.

knotty oriole
#

My T3 piece does seem to be 2% now, just checked

muted osprey
#

They all got cut by 20% it seems.

boreal patrol
# 
override.spell_data=effect.804325.base_value=10
override.spell_data=effect.803990.base_value=8```
#

should be the quick overrides for testing in advanced sims

#

i think somebody is already working on getting the latest hotfixes into simc though

boreal patrol
#

ok got latest spell data, seri is working on rebuilding raidbots nightly

muted osprey
#

👍

vagrant quail
#

mystler any news on the 4 essences combinations ?

muted osprey
#

Any reason for sudden gain in inkpod value? Seen several people asking me the same question about it suddenly simming much higher overnight

knotty oriole
#

Bug

#

Being looked at now

west prism
#

Any bugs with how Twisted Appendage is simmed?

#

It sims quite low, but real usage seems to be on par with other really good corruptions

knotty oriole
#

Would probably need some logs and profiles to compare

boreal patrol
#

TA should sim fine, just checked back with mine and all appears to be in order.

#

Re: 4 essence combinations, coming very soon! I did the script updates today and we'll see how well it works out. It's designed to automatically pick up a selection of top essences from the essence sims and use those for combinations only. In terms of sim time this should make it work out.

muted osprey
#

Is TA just insanely inconsistant? You see some people at seemingly random pop the fuck off a-la https://prnt.sc/qw79d1 and a lot of the time you also see it doing mediocre damage, regardless it doesn't sim good or bad just kinda in the middle, so it's just entirely proc RNG based?

Lightshot
Screenshot

Captured with Lightshot

muted osprey
solar swift
plain coral
#

@muted osprey this is probably due to APL not allowed to refresh garrote outside of pandemic range so you may end up randomly vanish garrote on CD while in pandemic range regardless of vendetta. Is it the best use ? Idk.

west prism
#

Does Vulpera racial sims take into account its decent scaling with mainstat? Is it using the racial during font/wv active for instance, because it gets quite a significant boost during agility buffs.

muted osprey
#

Yeah well what I care about is if it's optimal or not, not why it does it (:

cunning viper
#

so the corruption changes just went live, how long does it usually take to get updated for simc so I can begin simming the changes?

raw knoll
#

There will be a post whenever they are ready. Please keep to the rules of this channel. Raidbots will still need to have a nightly push for it to be live there. Can check their discord for updates as well.

boreal patrol
#

Alright, as you may have seen the corruption hotfixes have been delayed until the next reset. In preparation and as a preview I can post preliminary ST chart screenshots with the upcoming changes here.

#

If you want to run sims yourself, this should be the full overrides. You can use them in raidbots advanced by putting them at the top of your input. ```
override.spell_data=effect.804327.base_value=10
override.spell_data=effect.804325.base_value=5
override.spell_data=effect.803990.base_value=4

override.spell_data=spell.318219.duration=30000

override.spell_data=effect.804315.base_value=64
override.spell_data=effect.804312.base_value=34
override.spell_data=effect.803999.base_value=14

override.spell_data=effect.804360.base_value=800
override.spell_data=effect.804352.base_value=457
override.spell_data=effect.803976.base_value=343```

velvet edge
#

Is there a better way to sim how each corruption will affect my character than the profile sets I have set up here? Is this even a good way to do it? I'm getting some wonky results like infinite stars 1 and 2 simming negative DPS so I'm trying to work it out

boreal patrol
#

Yes, this approach works but it does not include item levels. Since the scaling change to some corruptions this doesn't work as you posted it because the shirt is item level 10.

#

If you add sth like ilevel=475 to every line, results should make more sense.

velvet edge
#

These numbers make a lot more sense much appreciated Mystler.

muted osprey
#

Any particular reason for the seemingly huge shift on herodmage? I understood that EV was gonna drop but not everything else look this close to GW.

#

Stuff's saying 500 dps per corruption on the charts LUL

boreal patrol
#

Oh, that is a bug, looks like the sims were run with a version i fixed like 2h after i made it, should resolve itself in the next update, sorry.

lilac junco
#

Does detection work with any other corruption besides ev? Maybe like IS since healers can heal and proc IS

knotty oriole
#

Detection can proc things but generally it's not of any specific value

#

EV is really the main thing since it's per ability cast and we have so much downtime

#

Most everything else is RPPM so really makes minor to no difference

willow knoll
#

Hey, the outlaw reroll logic seems to be incorrect again, it seems to mostly due to deadshot, but I'm not sure how many deadshots, vs aces, vs HOD you need to get for it to change over
Just a few profiles of examples

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/2ku3p8yVhJ9fqyR5ey2hSg - the default tier 25 profile with 0 deadshots
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/UB4PS8S7mU2TWQM22QsyB - the default tier 25 profile with 3 deadshot instead of 3 HOD
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/5i7zNANbdULGtKmyBMLsJP - my profile with 3 deadshot 1 ace 1 wits 1 blitz
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/4WgqCEihLRGqqGqUgh588N - my profile again but for aoe

I cut down a lot of the worse combos to make sim times a bit faster, i can link those as well if i need to

#

if these are fucked up in some way let me know

#

had a bunch of people also sim these for their own characters, seems to be consistently true for most ppls gear around this range

knotty oriole
#

fwiw, with my personal gear profile the default logic is the best, 0.3% ahead of Broadside and 0.4% ahead of True Bearing. I have 2x Deadshot, 2x Ace, BB/Wits