#tc-updates | Ravenholdt | Page 11

dusky jewel Dec 30, 2016, 6:21 PM

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i meant the event of a critical strike, the double damage (i hope it is double D:)

plush relic Dec 30, 2016, 8:22 PM

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@pseudo grove @manic pulsar is there a wiki for simc apl syntax?

dusky jewel Dec 30, 2016, 8:23 PM

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https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/wiki

GitHub

simulationcraft/simc

simc - Simulationcraft engine/GUI

plush relic Dec 30, 2016, 8:25 PM

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ah its on the github

dusky jewel Dec 30, 2016, 8:27 PM

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it can be reached from simcraft in the help window

stuck sapphire Dec 30, 2016, 8:28 PM

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https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/wiki/ActionLists

GitHub

simulationcraft/simc

simc - Simulationcraft engine/GUI

dusky jewel Dec 30, 2016, 8:58 PM

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uhm, i'm trying to improve envenom APL for 7.1.5
for now 4+ is the king, as expected by my previous calculation about envenom strategy.
but with the combination MP+DS+AP 5+ is above of ~2k, so is pretty reasonable expecting that the 2% more for surge of toxins is enough to compensate the previous difference.
so there is a method to force a fixed crit chances in simcraft without change items?
(because for my previous calculation envenom at 5+ is better under 30% crit chance, meanwhile 4+ above)

bitter quarry Dec 30, 2016, 9:00 PM

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guys i have 2-3 simple questions
when i have vendetta phase up + vanished rupture i should only focus on keepeng up elaborate planning 100% right? So i dont care if the envenom i use is 2 or 3 cp i just want to keep elaborate p. as much as possible?

marsh marten Dec 30, 2016, 9:51 PM

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@bitter quarry I don't know if that's theorycraft friend, but yes. EP's uptime should be as high as possible throughout the entire fight

brisk fiber Dec 30, 2016, 11:22 PM

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@pseudo grove So you need help on the assassin apl? 😃

uneven merlin Dec 30, 2016, 11:26 PM

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Hey guys, is Simcraft accurate for Outlaw rogues... I know shadowcraft is broken, but can i trust Simcraft with Outlaw results? At the moment I am getting very high stat weight for haste for example ( Pawn: v1: "Nvrmore": Agility=10.71, CritRating=6.54, HasteRating=10.55, MasteryRating=7.16, Versatility=7.94 )

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I understood that haste isnt great, so thats why I'm unsure if I can trust this

pseudo grove Dec 30, 2016, 11:31 PM

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well, rather time @brisk fiber 😛

pseudo grove Dec 31, 2016, 2:25 AM

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you know what ?

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Mantle might be a good legendary 😄

dusky jewel Dec 31, 2016, 2:28 AM

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i watching sc_rogue.cpp and i see "Does Kingsbane debuff get procced 2x on Mutilate? (If both hands apply lethal poison)."

testet now, can confirm that double proc are 2 stack

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if needed can load screen

pseudo grove Dec 31, 2016, 2:29 AM

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good

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add a comment

dusky jewel Dec 31, 2016, 2:34 AM

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in the issues page?

pseudo grove Dec 31, 2016, 2:36 AM

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yes you can comment each issue

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I made a bench profile for assa

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will update the APL tomorrow I guess

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(by bench profile it's a profile that check a lot of talents and a lot of legendaries so I can check that some condition should be restricted or not)

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fixed a couple of things

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mostly related to the mantle legendary and master of subtlety

hazy bolt Dec 31, 2016, 3:28 AM

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what would vendetta uptime look like with boots + 3 relics + trinket?

dusky jewel Dec 31, 2016, 3:34 AM

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EDIT im dumb, i remember tha convergences was 4sec instead of 5 <.<

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btw im dumb, cant find that profile

plush relic Dec 31, 2016, 3:38 AM

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@hazy bolt vendetta on avg 34s cd

rich rain Dec 31, 2016, 3:41 AM

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@gilded bonethek what trinket?

hazy bolt Dec 31, 2016, 3:42 AM

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convergence of fates

clear bobcat Dec 31, 2016, 6:57 AM

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http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/theory/mechanic/spell/shadowtechniques?spec=RogueSubtlety&version=7_0_3_22248&report=d60e7376dc4549498be93d2e49cdd4d1

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on this page it says shadow techniques proc every 3-5 hit

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but in game its 4-5

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does anyone know the exact value? or maybe the wa is incorrect

white trail Dec 31, 2016, 7:05 AM

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it's 3-5 after previous proc

clear bobcat Dec 31, 2016, 7:06 AM

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i asked the wa community to write a wa for it

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and it always reset when it shows 3 or 4

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so 4-5 hits

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thats why im interested in the exact value

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https://wago.io/Nkd4rBeHG

Wago.io

ShadowTechniques

This is a text type aura.

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still trying to perfect the wa because shadowblades fcks up the counter

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but works most of the time

woven parcel Dec 31, 2016, 7:09 AM

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM1uBvNvUuE

YouTube

Jaqueefa

He need some milk

▶ Play video

white trail Dec 31, 2016, 7:14 AM

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@clear bobcat you might be right. I don't think anyone tried to retest it, during late beta it was 3-5 and confirmed in official TC thread

clear bobcat Dec 31, 2016, 7:14 AM

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do people just test everything and guess how they work?(sim and amr)

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thats so much work

white trail Dec 31, 2016, 7:15 AM

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basically

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it really looks to either 4th or 5th attack now

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https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Yn1fj6yJRGwqx3mc#fight=31&type=summary&source=20&pins=2%24Separate%24%23244F4B%24damage%240%240.0.0.Any%24124284168.0.0.Rogue%24true%240.0.0.Any%24false%241|121473|121474^2%24Separate%24%23909049%24resources%240%24124284168.0.0.Rogue%240.0.0.Any%24true%240.0.0.Any%24false%24196911%24104&view=events

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https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/6DmT4gxYH8NzMyQA#fight=4&type=summary&source=2&pins=2%24Main%24%23244F4B%24resources%240%2491782648.0.0.Rogue%240.0.0.Any%24true%240.0.0.Any%24false%24196911%24104^2%24Separate%24%23909049%24damage%240%240.0.0.Any%2491782648.0.0.Rogue%24true%240.0.0.Any%24false%241|121473|121474&view=events

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and I cannot recall anything said about ShT. Stealth change?

sand nova Dec 31, 2016, 7:17 AM

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https://wago.io/Nkd4rBeHG

Wago.io

ShadowTechniques

This is a text type aura.

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deimos already made one

clear bobcat Dec 31, 2016, 7:19 AM

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isnt that the one i sent

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its incomplete

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doesnt count during shadowblade

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because melee gets changed shadow blades

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im asking wa community for help with it now

sand nova Dec 31, 2016, 7:19 AM

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ah yeah true sorry didnt see

chrome sun Dec 31, 2016, 7:53 AM

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oh interesting

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is it the case that the combat log entry for melee swings isn't registered during shadowblades somehow?

white trail Dec 31, 2016, 7:54 AM

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@chrome sun open log links I posted

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for duration of SB melees are just 2 new different spells

chrome sun Dec 31, 2016, 7:55 AM

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oh cool

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so just have to track those in addition to the standard SWING_DAMAGE effect

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no problem

white trail Dec 31, 2016, 7:56 AM

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it's quite strange that they proc now on 4th or 5th attack since last proc

chrome sun Dec 31, 2016, 7:56 AM

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can add another trigger to the increment sub-aura

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yeah, i was confused too, but it's definitely the case

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previous behavior was 3,4,5

white trail Dec 31, 2016, 7:56 AM

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I don't recall them saying anything about changing techniques

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yeah

chrome sun Dec 31, 2016, 7:56 AM

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it has changed for sure.

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it's more predictable now, which is good

white trail Dec 31, 2016, 7:56 AM

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does simc believe it's 3-5 or 4-5?

chrome sun Dec 31, 2016, 7:56 AM

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imo

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great question, actually

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simc is probably wrong

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let me verify

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yeah

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it's wrong

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https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/blob/legion-dev/engine/class_modules/sc_rogue.cpp#L5334

GitHub

simulationcraft/simc

simc - Simulationcraft engine/GUI

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that's range(3,5)

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one sec, will send a PR to fix

clear bobcat Dec 31, 2016, 8:00 AM

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whats the % on enegetic stabbing

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says 25% on amr

chrome sun Dec 31, 2016, 8:01 AM

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i think it's from the data file, we don't hard code that

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see: https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/blob/legion-dev/engine/class_modules/sc_rogue.cpp#L5392

GitHub

simulationcraft/simc

simc - Simulationcraft engine/GUI

white trail Dec 31, 2016, 8:01 AM

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25%. It is in spell data

clear bobcat Dec 31, 2016, 8:02 AM

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so something is checkable from data but something you guys just test to check

white trail Dec 31, 2016, 8:02 AM

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yes

clear bobcat Dec 31, 2016, 8:02 AM

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gj

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do you guys have means to find out the agi/dodge equation?

chrome sun Dec 31, 2016, 8:03 AM

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huh?

clear bobcat Dec 31, 2016, 8:03 AM

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im having 40% dodge now and it feels amazing

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dunno how high it can go

chrome sun Dec 31, 2016, 8:05 AM

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@white trail - fixed in latest commit: https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/commit/b723d9a8bddd81e4eb89b436b483e7c492696120

GitHub

Fix shadow techique probability distribution. · simulationcraft/...

simc - Simulationcraft engine/GUI

pseudo grove Jan 2, 2017, 12:41 AM

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Lot of news !

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Fixed couple of bugs related to Assassination and Improved a little bit the APL (mostly for MA relics / Boots / Convergence and also for EP)

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Will update default profiles later

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see https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/commit/6ab9d2766c296040fe2442f71680a450eae118ba and https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/commit/431298f9fc4b9afcf8173e95f6b81ef38b839d7c for more details

GitHub

[Rogue] Assassination Fixes · simulationcraft/simc@6ab9d27

Finalized Internal Bleeding Modelization - Fixed From the Shadows damage not increased by Agonizing Poison - Fixed Master Poisoner Spell Data Effect - Fixed Surge of Toxins modifier for Kingsbane...

GitHub

[Rogue] Assassination APL & Artifact Fix · simulationcraft/simc@...

Fixes https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/issues/3232 & https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/issues/3206

frozen brook Jan 2, 2017, 11:59 AM

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@pseudo grove from https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/235366820712939521/264546580827340800/unknown.png is alacrity only ahead from MoS with t19 4pc?

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or is it ahead with 7.1.5

plush relic Jan 2, 2017, 12:02 PM

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That's right, ahah

sand nova Jan 2, 2017, 12:08 PM

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it's only with set bonus

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the set bonus's perpetual extra ss cp (which is practically premed) allows us to ditch premed in favour of alacrity

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otherwise we'd just be casting 4xss 1xfin in dance

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which is inefficient

little pelican Jan 2, 2017, 12:27 PM

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idk

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ss evis ss evis ss bs evis

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sounds good to me

brazen jay Jan 2, 2017, 12:47 PM

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Playing around with wrists and trinket and doing ss evi x3 in dance netted some insane uptime

sand nova Jan 2, 2017, 12:48 PM

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i think that

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it was determined that 2x ss 1x fin 2xss

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was still optimal

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with anti build

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by fuu or some1

stuck sapphire Jan 2, 2017, 12:50 PM

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i didnt test the bracers

brazen jay Jan 2, 2017, 12:50 PM

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Premed with ss evi x3 nets you more cps towards extending SB

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And uses less energy to achieve this

ivory moon Jan 2, 2017, 1:12 PM

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Yes, heard it's mostly wrong

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Are there any sims done by these smart people here? anything "official"?

stuck sapphire Jan 2, 2017, 1:18 PM

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did a quick simulation on it: (10k iterations, not so quick becouse my pc is slow asf)
T19M_NH with sub bracers:

vanilla apl:
DS/premeditation - 701651 dps
Anticipation/alacrity - 701586 dps
Anticipation/prematitation - 725402 dps

slightly adjusted apl:

DS/premaditation - 729277 dps*
Anticipation/premaditation - 744950 dps*+

*(use finisher @4+ cp during shd and only use finisher as last gcd if at 6 cp)
*+(cp trashhold rised to 3 for shd and last gcd = ss during shd)

brazen jay Jan 2, 2017, 1:19 PM

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What happens if you swap to 3x gutripper

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As youll be using evi so much

flat rain Jan 2, 2017, 4:52 PM

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@pseudo grove is anyone else besides yourself focusing on the outlaw APL for 715?

pseudo grove Jan 2, 2017, 5:02 PM

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@flat rain I don't think so, help is always welcome especially on APL (it's easy to tweak) so I can focus on the rogue module

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@frozen brook it's old

frozen brook Jan 2, 2017, 5:08 PM

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@stuck sapphire for anti+premed it's ss x2 finisher ss x2 finisher x2(outside shd) am i correct?

stuck sapphire Jan 2, 2017, 5:09 PM

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@frozen brook the vanilla version starts shd with 0 or 1 cp, finishes with 5+ cp so its typical 2ss+finisher+2ss

pseudo grove Jan 2, 2017, 5:13 PM

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No discussion about Tier Bonuses Ranking here, you can talk about mechanics related to that or wrong implementation on simulation tools but not ranking.

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rocky lake Jan 2, 2017, 5:15 PM

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Herro. Do I need to put ptr=1 for a simc import from ptr?

pseudo grove Jan 2, 2017, 5:16 PM

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if you use latest nightly, no it's already 7.1.5 (hence PTR Data)

rocky lake Jan 2, 2017, 5:17 PM

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Thanks. Data was a bit screwy.

frozen brook Jan 2, 2017, 5:26 PM

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@stuck sapphire do u use the same APL as the one in the latest simc sample profile? opener with sblades?

stuck sapphire Jan 2, 2017, 5:28 PM

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used the one from latest simc build. not sure if its the most recent one.

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it was just to "quick evaluate" the thesis

frozen brook Jan 2, 2017, 5:28 PM

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im just wondering what's the optimal opener with alacrity since u will only 3-4 CP in subterfuge without nightblade and premed

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is it actually worth it to use a 1cp nightblade to get the 4cp bonus rolling?

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maybe if u havent try this yet u can try to implement it

stuck sapphire Jan 2, 2017, 5:32 PM

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you start with shadowblades this means you get 2 cp each ss so the opener doesent change

frozen brook Jan 2, 2017, 5:32 PM

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is the old 7.1 APL uses sblades at the start too?

stuck sapphire Jan 2, 2017, 5:32 PM

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have to try if thats a damage win over this opener

frozen brook Jan 2, 2017, 5:33 PM

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like currently i think most if not all sub uses sblades before/after the 1st NB application

stuck sapphire Jan 2, 2017, 5:34 PM

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we still talk about t19 4p + trinket ?

frozen brook Jan 2, 2017, 5:35 PM

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yeah

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just comparing the current 7.1 APL with 1.5 APL opener

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i mean like if the current APL uses sblades before/after 1st NB, the 7.1.5 uses sblades at the start

stuck sapphire Jan 2, 2017, 5:36 PM

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i think the 7.1. apl did it with bracers (use shadowblades on opener) but not without

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if you run a simulation, you can extend the "action priority list" tab and then the "Sample Sequence Table" to get a knowlage what the apl does

frozen brook Jan 2, 2017, 5:38 PM

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well if the best solution (and dps) using alacrity by using sblades at the start then i guess wont have any problem then.
yeah i know about that. i dont have 7.1 simc installed anymore and lazy to reinstall just to check the APL 😄

stuck sapphire Jan 2, 2017, 5:40 PM

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we should move the discussion to general moderated

frozen brook Jan 2, 2017, 5:40 PM

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i'll try simming the t19nh with bracers 50k iterations

dense swift Jan 2, 2017, 8:56 PM

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Fun thing, on longer fights on live, if you "bind" shadow blades with backstab, you see a dps increase

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Aka prio using it outside of dance rather than during dance. On shorter fights this doesn't really do a lot since if you dont use it in the opener you will lose usages

outer rapids Jan 3, 2017, 12:25 AM

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Are the comparisons being done on Simcrafts front page with T19M profiles? The sub one has way better gear both in ilvl and itemization than Assn does.

acoustic lake Jan 3, 2017, 1:47 AM

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Its all a work in progress. I would take sims done right now with a grain of salt until aethys says hes done with them

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For people trying to decide what to play based on sims, the most sensible thing for them to do is sim their own gear that they expect to have by the end of the first week of heroic nighthold and make a decision based on that.

small mountain Jan 3, 2017, 10:23 AM

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Should never decide what to play based on sims, especially at a start of a patch when APLs are very imature

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and sims are wildly innacurate

plush relic Jan 3, 2017, 10:35 AM

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For those interested, i did preliminary simming of 2 legendaries for each spec. I used the lateest nightly build of simcraft (01-02-17), fight settings of 300+-20%, 0.01% error target, patchwerk 1target fight. I pulled the profiles off the latest github t19M profile for each spec.

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http://i.imgur.com/ZBMc9ef.png

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http://i.imgur.com/RFUbyrF.png

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http://i.imgur.com/QhUtnAX.png

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http://i.imgur.com/k945Yxk.png

acoustic lake Jan 3, 2017, 10:36 AM

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All of these numbers are fairly meaningless without the profiles behind them

plush relic Jan 3, 2017, 10:37 AM

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i just pulled the t19M github profiles atm, and replaced gear with legendaries

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ill pastebin the profiles

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so you dont have to make all the permutations of legendaries haha

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sin: http://pastebin.com/CGjn2Kka, exsang: http://pastebin.com/5JYqh2bq, sub: http://pastebin.com/2dWWqH2y, outlaw: http://pastebin.com/nG1SADn4

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the t19M_outlaw.simc or w/e is just the pulled github profile with the rogue name chopped out so i could make spam combinations like this

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all the legendary data is pulled from rogue_legendaries.simc, i added in mantle manually

acoustic lake Jan 3, 2017, 10:47 AM

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Well this seems fairly as expected I feel. Greenskins didn't really suffer a nerf because BTE reduces its own cd via TB now, unlike on live, which means every second finisher is BTE instead of every 3rd

plush relic Jan 3, 2017, 10:47 AM

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there could definitly be some improvements in apl for some of these, im thinking mantle especially

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or maybe talent changes to subterfuge, etc

old jungle Jan 3, 2017, 10:47 AM

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You'd need to find optimal talents as well

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Pretty sure denial is better with anticipation

plush relic Jan 3, 2017, 10:48 AM

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these dont use nighthold gear

old jungle Jan 3, 2017, 10:48 AM

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Anticipation and denial aren't NH

plush relic Jan 3, 2017, 10:50 AM

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right, but i think most of the benefit of anticipation comes from sub 4pc

sand nova Jan 3, 2017, 10:54 AM

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^ without a doubt, the benefit from having the extra 'space' to get more cps is much more of a benefit when every shadowstrike during sblades creates 4cp instead of 3

wicked lark Jan 3, 2017, 11:58 AM

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well it kinda makes sense for sub to be not that good without 4pc anyway - if u just look at the gain there it would be op as fuck

summer finch Jan 3, 2017, 1:02 PM

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why would they not announce it.

devout axle Jan 4, 2017, 3:47 PM

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I noticed the tooltip for bloodthirsty instinct is different in SimC than in game. Is this just a visual difference or is it affecting sims? http://i.imgur.com/7iJT6Wz.png

outer rapids Jan 4, 2017, 7:31 PM

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@plush relic Also with those legendary sims of Exsang vs AP you have with the default sims in T19M profiles the exsang one is terribly optimized. It has 2x Gushing wound and 1x Master Alchemist relics and its gear has things like a haste/vers chest. So when comparing the legendaries something like boots get underestimated since with boots you want 2xMA relics and 1x Gushing wound.

plush relic Jan 4, 2017, 7:43 PM

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i didnt make the gear profiles, but you are right could do some optimization

outer rapids Jan 4, 2017, 7:43 PM

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Nah I know and you doing the Sims in general is awesome

plush relic Jan 4, 2017, 7:44 PM

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this is very prelimanary, it depends on what the patch says too

pseudo grove Jan 4, 2017, 8:12 PM

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it's gonna be better shown than this, at least mine, but in the future

pseudo grove Jan 4, 2017, 8:35 PM

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😉

placid cypress Jan 4, 2017, 8:49 PM

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@pseudo grove do you know if the spontaneous appedendages trinket hits proc main gauche the same way it procs stormstrike for enhanc shamans?

pulsar escarp Jan 4, 2017, 9:30 PM

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how do i upgrade simcraft apl ?

stuck sapphire Jan 4, 2017, 9:33 PM

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you can get the most recent ones from git

pulsar escarp Jan 4, 2017, 9:36 PM

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do you have a link ?

stuck sapphire Jan 4, 2017, 9:37 PM

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https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/tree/legion-dev/profiles/Tier19M_NH

GitHub

simulationcraft/simc

simc - Simulationcraft engine/GUI

pulsar escarp Jan 4, 2017, 9:37 PM

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ty

quaint prism Jan 5, 2017, 1:32 AM

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to sim in 7.1.5 do we use the PTR option?

little pelican Jan 5, 2017, 1:34 AM

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nope

quaint prism Jan 5, 2017, 1:36 AM

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is it a different setting?

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I didn't see it

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all I know is that I really hope our DPS matches the PTR simulator results 😃

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https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231773029875712000/266128995202891776/unknown.png

fringe dock Jan 5, 2017, 2:21 AM

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@plush relic Does the legendary pair sims you did take into account the nerf of greenskins to 200%?

plush relic Jan 5, 2017, 2:21 AM

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no

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that will be tomorrow when simc is updated

fringe dock Jan 5, 2017, 2:21 AM

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Care to hazard a guess how far down it will take them?

plush relic Jan 5, 2017, 2:40 AM

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33%

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of the difference between default and bracers

clear bobcat Jan 5, 2017, 5:13 AM

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does weaponmaster proc double energy regen?
energetic stabbing and relentless strikes

pseudo grove Jan 5, 2017, 6:09 AM

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@quaint prism update using a nightly

pulsar escarp Jan 5, 2017, 11:15 AM

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got excactly the same problem as @quaint prism

plush relic Jan 5, 2017, 11:30 AM

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use nightly build for ptr and official dec 20 releasefor 7.1.0

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ptr "options" setting seems to be bugged

stuck sapphire Jan 5, 2017, 11:34 AM

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there is no need of the ptr option if there is a 7.1.5 release

little pelican Jan 5, 2017, 11:48 AM

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the ptr "option" goes full spaghetti, the nightly build is already on the ptr, as fuu said

clear bobcat Jan 5, 2017, 8:30 PM

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whats the logic for shadowdance energy pooling right now?
in simc

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i couldnt find it or im too stupid to understand it

rain lance Jan 5, 2017, 11:50 PM

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Hey folks we're changing around how this channel functions. See my comments in #announcements for full details.

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How this will work going forward: If you have something to say you think would be useful for this channel and you are not currently on the channel whitelist let me or a <@&226424944148480000> know and they can add you if your contribution appears useful. If you don't contribute usefully you will be removed from the access list.

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In the short term if you have been a useful contributor to TC work let me know so I can start building the list.

brazen jay Jan 11, 2017, 12:59 AM

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So there is most certainly something going on with the blizzards new % auras based on spec.
I just started looking at outlaw and already saberslash and pistol shot are not matching.

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Both the saberslashes base damage from AP scaling was increased in 715 by 10% which seems to be the case. But the 16% dmg aura is no where to be seen

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Or the other way aoround

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But for example when I compare the damage of mutilate and garrote there is a clear 7% dmg increase as the aura buff would suggest

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But canoonball barrage I can get to match both the ap buff and the aura increase

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Killing spree yet again is missing either the dmg scaling buff or aura buff

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This is silly

brazen jay Jan 11, 2017, 3:06 AM

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It would also seem that they fixed the free saber slash combo by making the animation faster

white trail Jan 11, 2017, 6:35 AM

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They have seen my video I guess 😃

pseudo grove Jan 11, 2017, 2:03 PM

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Some additions:
Sub boots "bug" (distance computation was center to center) looks like fixed (seems to be boss edge to player center) making the boots nerf higher than the "70%" shown on patch note and making the legendary not that good now. (i.e. it was hit by the biggest legendary nerf of all classes and was further nerfed by the bug fix)

It seems MA nerf introduced a bug where Vendetta has no cooldown. If anyone is able to reproduce it, let use know:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/JgCj4MkcA8yfqRY7#fight=31&type=damage-done
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/JgCj4MkcA8yfqRY7#fight=26&type=damage-done
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20752599672

Vendetta has no CD! Doing 1M-1.3M dps - World of Warcraft Forums

So I'm playing Assassination right now and my vendetta doesn't have a Cooldown. I took off my legendary boots and I still have no Cooldown on Vendetta. I have two Vendetta relics. I'm wondering because of the quick Vendetta relic nerf something went wrong with the relic(s). https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/pxqtaHN1QckArmKy/#fight=3 I did LFR, check all the fights. I'm doing 1M-1.3M on all fights. Blizzard, fix this. This is broken and will disrupt the game... Original Post. https://us.battle.net/forums/...

plush relic Jan 11, 2017, 10:06 PM

#

I did a writeup (with rare's help) about the changes to MA relics and my findings with them at http://roguedpsguide.com/master-assassin-ma-trait-and-relics-stealth-nerfed-in-7-1-5-2/. It's probably hard to evaluate the ilevel difference now for the relic sheet as it depends on whether you have the CoF trinket and sin boots or not, @fair owl . In general the relic difference is now very close, so higher ilvl upgrades will be much more valued.

pseudo grove Jan 11, 2017, 10:13 PM

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It's gonna be hard to optimize the APL around that by the way, if anyone want to contribute feel free to

pseudo grove Jan 12, 2017, 8:27 AM

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Quick update on Subtlety, boots bug is still there, so enjoy the fact that the leg is garbage on tiny bosses and op on big bosses.

There is also another bug with anticipation that is for the moment "considered as a blizzard feature" making finality eviscerate (not nightblade it seems according to @chrome sun tests) being up to 40% empowered (instead of 20/24% max) because of the fact that the value is taken from current cp instead of cp spent.

#

Vendetta bug (no cd) seems to be fixed as I've not encountered another one able to make it, they probably hotfixed it server side.

chrome sun Jan 12, 2017, 8:28 AM

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It's quite the bug, pushing anticipation to the "strictly best talent" in the slot.

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We'll have to play with the APL to optimize for it, if it is indeed intended, though I can hardly believe it would be.

pseudo grove Jan 12, 2017, 8:31 AM

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Also, most bugs reported on PTR thread are still there, I'll make an updated list and post it somewhere. Some of them are really annoying and need to be considered while playing rogue as part of "our identity" because they might changes the way we play.

pseudo grove Jan 12, 2017, 10:29 AM

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More infos on Finality:Eviscerate "bug":

Anticipation: Up to 10 cp for normal cast and up to 5 cp for weaponmaster proc.
Others: Up to 5/6 cp for normal cast and 0 cp for weaponmaster proc```
It's 4% per cp, so from 0% to 40% with Ant.

little pelican Jan 12, 2017, 10:35 AM

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These bugs, have they been submitted to blizzard through the bugreport?

dense swift Jan 12, 2017, 12:33 PM

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Yes, both in-game and there's a more public collection being made by Aethys further on.

brazen jay Jan 12, 2017, 4:44 PM

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nvm random napkin. interesting thought tho

stuck sapphire Jan 12, 2017, 5:16 PM

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DS is 24% for 6cp evi and nightblade (on top of the 5% base from the talent)
this probably means that the anticipation bug isnt as impactfull as assumed.
but i can be wrong in my napkin math

pseudo grove Jan 12, 2017, 5:27 PM

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Yes it is not from my quick test from work, I'll do more later. At least the model reflects ingame behaviors now

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With bracers it becomes more interesting, and with 4p and bracers it's probably the goto.

little pelican Jan 13, 2017, 10:21 AM

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Simply because you can then utilize the combopoint overflow in a positive (damaging) way with anticipation, and therefore gain uptime, I imagine

dense swift Jan 13, 2017, 10:51 AM

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It's not as huge as one can imagine though, it doesn't (bar WM procs) reduce the need to finish during dance. So amount of SS's are the same.
There's not as many temporary buffs anymore either, so the gain to save a finisher from a low DPE(CP) to a high DPE(CP) time is also marginal.
However, it smoothes out vanish and gainst you an SS. It helps on AoE, esp with WM or during dance on lower amount of targets. It smoothes out NB usage.
And then the aforementioned Finality: Eviscerate buff as well as WM'ed buff (Still minor though, gives 20% on half of the 6% of evis cast).

little pelican Jan 16, 2017, 10:09 PM

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Im curious as to what is going on in the APL at this time:

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http://i.imgur.com/8S1P7EQ.jpg

acoustic lake Jan 17, 2017, 1:40 AM

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@little pelican Use log=1 in your apl and read the log to see

little pelican Jan 17, 2017, 8:45 PM

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Okay

#

I've simmed Kingsbane extensively the past few days

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and my avg cast in logs is like 50% larger than in sims

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my max crit in 200k iteration sim is 1.01m

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max crit on 1 fight (helya M) is 1.6

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this statement: "and my avg cast in logs is like 50% larger than in sims" is even wrong

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my non-preempty death kingsbane casts on mobs on helya M was like 5m+

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and simc has the avg of around 2.8

plush relic Jan 17, 2017, 8:49 PM

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I personally have had upwards of 2.5M ticks on kingsbane before

little pelican Jan 17, 2017, 8:49 PM

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Do you have boots?

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Bracers*

plush relic Jan 17, 2017, 8:49 PM

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no sin legendaries

little pelican Jan 17, 2017, 8:49 PM

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hm, i havent seen such high numbers, but as i said, this is just 1 fight

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i havent tested in significantly in-game

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All I can see is that the simmed Kingsbane is super weak in comparison

plush relic Jan 17, 2017, 8:59 PM

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i couldnt find the 2.5m crit i saw, but i did find a 1.9m crit on xavius here (no insanity buff) https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/L9g3B62PKFfMCpjt#fight=18&type=damage-done&source=12&ability=192759&view=events&start=6397314&end=6422156

little pelican Jan 17, 2017, 9:00 PM

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Yeah

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My sim gives me this:

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http://i.imgur.com/dfjCr2e.jpg

acoustic lake Jan 18, 2017, 1:49 AM

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Im working on this issue at the moment

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It takes awhile though because blizzard makes tracking AP poison refreshes very difficult

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once ive finished my weakaura I should be able to see a bit more clearly what the deal is

pseudo grove Jan 18, 2017, 8:08 AM

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Posting it here since it might help you:

Some trinkets will be hotfixed, no one knows which yet but we can bet there might be some NH trinkets : https://twitter.com/WarcraftDevs/status/821527210695671812
SimC is updated for 7.1.5, there is a release (http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/ and take a 715-0x file, zip for portable version, exe for installer)
You can still give a try to nightlies: http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/?C=M;O=D

Twitter

@WarcraftDevs

WarcraftDevs

Still coming (along with a couple other trinket-related tweaks)! https://t.co/HmFuhPDgl0

pseudo grove Jan 18, 2017, 10:18 PM

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Oh btw, Trinkets Hotfix:
https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/commit/3ccf48a7445850e9b2d4c4a9f69dd3fe87811e1e

GitHub

grab hotfixes, upload differences · simulationcraft/simc@3ccf48a

simc - Simulationcraft engine/GUI

#

No CoF nerf for us (Ripperino Retribution)

plush relic Jan 18, 2017, 11:16 PM

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are these hot fixes live? I don't see them anywhere but spell data

pseudo grove Jan 18, 2017, 11:44 PM

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it should be

#

else tonight

pseudo grove Jan 19, 2017, 10:21 PM

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If someone can pm me logs of recursive strike trinket on dummy (long enough), I would love u.
I take the raid angerboda (Aluriel ?) aswell if you have. Thanks in advance

pseudo grove Jan 19, 2017, 11:03 PM

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At least 15mins, only AA are needed (so just avoid dc by small move every X mins)

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The longer it is, the better it is.

acoustic lake Jan 20, 2017, 4:14 AM

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I have a 17 minute aa only one from ptr a few days back

fair owl Jan 20, 2017, 4:15 AM

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has anyone tested, if recursive strikes works with CoS AA ring

acoustic lake Jan 20, 2017, 4:16 AM

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Its not an autoattack so I would be very surprised, its a different ability

pseudo grove Jan 20, 2017, 7:20 AM

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Thanks everyone, received 10logs or so, you rocks.

pseudo grove Jan 22, 2017, 11:14 AM

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Thanks to @white trail, the mystery around Kingsbane has been solved. If you're talented into AP, each application of the poison increases 2 times the kingsbane ticks instead of just 1 time (like Deadly Poison & Wound Poison). Another bug from Blizzard, expect a nerf/bug fix soonTM.
https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/commit/f28f50fb80159caf7d379135f32360f41cff1c54

GitHub

[Rogue] Kingsbane & World of Agonizing Bugs · simulationcraft/si...

AP application applies 2 times the kingsbane tick dmg increases per application (instead of 1). Seems to be a bug since 7.1.5 Deadly Poison & Wound Poison acts normally.

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And btw, Surge of Toxins doesn't interact with Kingsbane tick increase. (It's only a target modifier like the tooltip says)

pseudo grove Jan 22, 2017, 11:38 AM

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📎 Screen_Shot_2017-01-22_at_12.36.33.png

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📎 Screen_Shot_2017-01-22_at_12.36.38.png

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So this bug, without an optimized APL is about 3-4% dps increases overall. I think by abusing the bug it can be a bit higher.

pseudo grove Jan 22, 2017, 12:39 PM

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I am looking for Draught of Souls and Arcanogolem logs if some of you have (rogue or not, doesn't matter, just be sure to do advanced combat logging so I can see the gear, talents, etc...)
Thanks in advance.

frozen brook Jan 22, 2017, 11:01 PM

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@pseudo grove i'll give u my logs of draught. 910ilvl draught

pseudo grove Jan 23, 2017, 11:53 AM

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Thanks for the logs again.

brazen jay Jan 23, 2017, 9:46 PM

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Interestingly enough, you can use draught while sprinting and still get into vanish
So if you want to get sub nerfed even more

chrome sun Jan 23, 2017, 9:48 PM

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O.o

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sprint /stopautoattack /use draught of souls style?

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that's a disgusting wombo combo

brazen jay Jan 23, 2017, 9:49 PM

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Indeed, even the global cooldown change with draught doesnt really matter for this

chrome sun Jan 23, 2017, 9:50 PM

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that's awesome. need to get my hands on one.

pseudo grove Jan 23, 2017, 11:28 PM

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Not sure how I'll put this into SimC -_-'

pseudo grove Jan 24, 2017, 1:26 AM

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https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20752642780#4

Loaded Dice: New Outlaw Gold feedback - World of Warcraft Forums

So I like the concept of guaranteeing a good roll with AR. However, I don't think the current iteration (single use of AR grants a single two-buff) will ever end up making a difference really. You already RTB prior to the pull and if you get a decent set of buffs, you're not going to reroll it just because you get a free two-fer. This ability needs to be a bit stronger or more flexible. It should allow for ALL rolls during AR to be two-buffs, or guarantee a single three-buff (I'd personally prefer a free 3-...

pseudo grove Jan 24, 2017, 9:32 AM

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I'll reran the sims when we'll have spell data for new trinket, etc..
Also, I'll push the NH profiles on the website (but not spreadsheet) when I'll do so.

dense swift Jan 24, 2017, 1:55 PM

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@pseudo grove well, you can try just if sprint use draught and see where that gets you

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and if its positive you can go from there, like adding it to opener or whatever

frozen brook Jan 24, 2017, 2:00 PM

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anyone figure out when exactly the best time to use draught? especially at the start of a fight

plush relic Jan 26, 2017, 5:07 AM

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a very cool link on how to generate trinket graphs

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https://binkenstein.wordpress.com/2016/10/12/trinket-tip-tabluation/

plush relic Jan 26, 2017, 5:40 AM

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and an example of the spreadsheet data that ends up being generated https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13pAx5ycUHhpIR21Ic8YIeNaK6khy4k9A4lzG5kQD5Uc/edit#gid=340651414

chrome sun Jan 26, 2017, 10:39 AM

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https://wago.io/N1ZLg6GDM

Wago.io

Flickering Shadows Tracker

Because Sub Rogues are starting to use flickering shadows (sprint and take no damage + do no damage for 3 seconds) to generate vanishes for use with Mantle of Master Assassin, I wanted to make a tracker to see if my sprint is "safe" or if I

#

That's a weakaura that will show you if you messed up a flickering shadows sprint, and should keep attacking.

pseudo grove Jan 26, 2017, 10:42 AM

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@small mountain (and others), @chrome sun plays Outlaw & Subtlety, @acoustic lake plays Assasination, @pseudo grove plays Subtlety, and all 3 specs are "represented" by you, the community.
It is not as easy as you may think to be top notch on all 3 specs (some tcers do have only one, i.e. ret, shadow, ... and still not as much complete as we try to be).
Tbh, when something is "worrying you", just open an issue on SimC or mention us and we'll see what we can do.
Also, Assa APL is currently under rework (thanks MA/Boots nerf + CoF) but do not expect something outrageous. Also, there might be some bug/unknown interaction (I heard some things about a bug in Assa 2pc).

chrome sun Jan 26, 2017, 11:11 AM

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Updated the WA, fixed a bug.

pseudo grove Jan 26, 2017, 12:24 PM

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https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/issues/3435
I should have fixed that but I'm not sure how it interacts with AP (another target modifier) since this Vendetta thing is rather new (7.1 hotfix or 7.1.5).
If someone do have Insignia and can give me logs, it would be nice. (Just muti a dummy with no poison then again when you have 5 stacks, should be enough)

GitHub

[Rogue] Insignia Not Properly Simulated for Assassination · Issu...

The current Simulationcraft version doesn't appear to correctly model Insignia for Assassination. In particular, Simulationcraft models Insignia as if it always did the same percentage of the Mutil...

brazen jay Jan 26, 2017, 12:31 PM

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I got ring, what are you looking for

pseudo grove Jan 26, 2017, 12:34 PM

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Just muti a dummy with no poison then again when you have 5 stacks, should be enough

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AP of course. Update it on wcl and pm me it 😃

#

I implemented the "bug" with Assa 2Pc:
https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/commit/ebd260a3d86afe863e5dc3b0aed03c675e40cb2a

Now I'm not sure if it's bug or a blizz feature. Could be also a double dip somewhere else, but global value is the same (about 42% instead of 30% which is the dmg pre-mitigation).

GitHub

[Rogue] Implement Assa T19 2Pc "Bug" · simulationcraft/simc@ebd2...

Thanks Lorentz.

brazen jay Jan 26, 2017, 12:39 PM

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doubles with ago

pseudo grove Jan 26, 2017, 12:40 PM

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you mean mutilated flesh double dip with ago ?
Then I would need a log as AP and Exsg with 2Pc

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guess I can look on WCL for this

brazen jay Jan 26, 2017, 12:40 PM

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As I have 2pc and ring

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ops wrong log

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https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/WDZGpat8ARfk3Jxv/
now

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with and without ago with and without vendetta

pseudo grove Jan 26, 2017, 12:43 PM

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ok the insignia thing looks like to be vendetta only

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for the mutilated flesh thing, may you do just 1 mutilate so I don't have to add remaining dmg ?

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1 mutilate with 0 ago, 5 ago, vendetta 0 ago, vendetta 5 ago

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while we are at this, may you confirm Exsanguinate doesn't work with Mutilated Flesh ? (and if it does not, all the test I did on PTR should still be valid)

#

love you ❤

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and if you want, you can add hemo but I don't think they reverted the revert on this one, so it shouldn't work 😄

brazen jay Jan 26, 2017, 1:01 PM

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Logging a dummy just keeps fucking up as it cuts off randomly all the time

pseudo grove Jan 26, 2017, 1:02 PM

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as long as I can see the events, it's ok even if it's not on the same fight

brazen jay Jan 26, 2017, 1:04 PM

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https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/mbwAGCRyxPNZKXVJ/#fight=4&type=damage-done&source=6
should have it all

pseudo grove Jan 26, 2017, 1:06 PM

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ok

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ago double dipping it seems on Assa 2pc

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let me check it again

brazen jay Jan 26, 2017, 1:07 PM

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For me it matches my 36 or so modifier on ago exactly

pseudo grove Jan 26, 2017, 1:07 PM

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yes

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now the question is

#

how does it double dip on multiple mutilate ?

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like when there are remaining dmg, are the muti + ago dmg added, or just the muti

brazen jay Jan 26, 2017, 1:09 PM

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For me it was exactly 36% no matter how many mutis I did

pseudo grove Jan 26, 2017, 1:09 PM

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ok so it doesn't double dip on the remaining dmg, it means the ago has an effect on the bleed itself

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and Vendetta doesn't double dip on this

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ok will update it according to this

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one last test

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Surge of Toxins ? 😄

brazen jay Jan 26, 2017, 1:11 PM

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What do you mean

pseudo grove Jan 26, 2017, 1:12 PM

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oh, I should sleep more, nvm it doesn't interact with bleed --'

brazen jay Jan 26, 2017, 1:12 PM

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:p

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With surge up the dot did 46% more damage which is my ago during sot. So just as it should imo

pseudo grove Jan 26, 2017, 1:13 PM

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yes, thanks for everything

brazen jay Jan 26, 2017, 1:13 PM

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Now that we have this umm

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Double dip thingy how about recursive strikes? 😄

pseudo grove Jan 26, 2017, 1:13 PM

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Give me logs and we'll see 😃

brazen jay Jan 26, 2017, 1:14 PM

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It doesnt apply player and target modifiers properly on simc

pseudo grove Jan 26, 2017, 1:14 PM

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pinpoint what is wrong and I'll be able to fix it

brazen jay Jan 26, 2017, 1:15 PM

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Quite a pain to test as the ppm is so low. Anecdotally it feels way lower than 1

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https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/hpJKPdxvGH9M6FnZ/#type=damage-done&source=6&fight=8&ability=225739
ago simc:
http://i.imgur.com/RQOwrrL.png
sub simc:
http://i.imgur.com/oDFxNGC.png

#

Using latest nightly

pseudo grove Jan 26, 2017, 1:53 PM

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https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/commit/42c6048dfd0d180ed58ba38346b2c742c9c08932
This time we should be good.

GitHub

[Rogue] World of Double Dip · simulationcraft/simc@42c6048

T19 2Pc double dip on AP.

frozen brook Jan 26, 2017, 2:26 PM

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not sure if u guys notice this but draught can be use in stealth/vanish whatever and it doesnt break u out from stealth. not sure if this can be useful. might be good for assa, vanish>dos>rupture

brazen jay Jan 26, 2017, 2:30 PM

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It does break stealth?

frozen brook Jan 26, 2017, 2:52 PM

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hmm why on my testing it doesnt break stealth

#

gonna post some screenshot

brazen jay Jan 26, 2017, 2:53 PM

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I dont have cof myself but on ptr it did break. Also subter or ns?

frozen brook Jan 26, 2017, 2:53 PM

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sub. subterfuge

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http://imgur.com/a/OnsJb

Imgur

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet.

#

notice that i kill a mob using draught and still in stealth

brazen jay Jan 26, 2017, 2:54 PM

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Yes no big surprise subterfuge makes it not break. Without it it breaks

frozen brook Jan 26, 2017, 2:55 PM

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oh really? what makes subterfuge doesnt break on using draught?

brazen jay Jan 26, 2017, 2:55 PM

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Subterfuge is so buggy. It has endless amount of bugged interactions

frozen brook Jan 26, 2017, 2:55 PM

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hmm yeah tested with assa it does break stealth

#

this might explain why i can mount while in stealth

pseudo grove Jan 27, 2017, 9:11 AM

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May someone do a quick test for me with Draught of Souls ? Using it from stealth with nightstalker

#

If you have Mantle, it's even better 😎

#

Want to be 100% sure it works with and it doesn't break stealth.

frozen brook Jan 27, 2017, 9:33 AM

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i tested yesterday by using sub with subterfuge and assa with ns, as sub dos doesnt break stealth, but as assa dos break stealth

brazen jay Jan 27, 2017, 11:49 AM

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Ye it is tied to subterfuge

brazen jay Jan 27, 2017, 1:28 PM

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In regards to the rewriting sin apl Ive done some work on mantle apl

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And fairly happy with the results

pseudo grove Jan 27, 2017, 1:36 PM

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Share it with @royal sonnet @white trail or PR / open an issue on Github ^^

brazen jay Jan 27, 2017, 1:37 PM

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Yeh, I just pmd lorentz to ask on his take on boots apl. Im really just trying to compare boots against mantle and Im seeing mantle destroy boots in pretty much all cases

#

The ability to stack our cooldowns even if it means holding on to them and missing like 2 kingsbanes over a fight is significant dps increase with mantle

pseudo grove Jan 27, 2017, 1:52 PM

#

it's entirely possible

brazen jay Jan 27, 2017, 1:57 PM

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http://i.imgur.com/YI4XGmI.png
Taking krosus mythic as an example with a strict 6 minute kill time.
The benefit of cof isnt remotely as close for boots than it is for mantle
And this is with mantle sitting on cooldows for what some could think very long times

chrome sun Jan 27, 2017, 11:42 PM

#

I've been playing around with some things for subtlety's finality bug.

#

Specifically, the fact that finality is applying a bonus modifier for the number of CP you have when you evis, rather than the number you spend

#

Which, intuitively, means that a playstyle with anticipation that tries to stay between five and ten combo points is quite strong.

#

If you play with Mantle and MoS talent, you can do some truly absurd things.

#

(weaponmaster's bug still exists, where sometimes the weapon-mastered' eviscerate will leave you with a 0% finality buff, which is not what you want)

pseudo grove Jan 27, 2017, 11:48 PM

#

Any result to share ?

chrome sun Jan 27, 2017, 11:48 PM

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Tentatively, it seems like a DPS gain. Need to finish fleshing out some math and APL stuff, will share more tomorrow.

dense swift Jan 28, 2017, 9:50 AM

#

@chrome sun the weapon mastered evis buff depends on how many CP you have a swell. So if you finish at 10 CP and it weaponmasters, you'll have a 20% buff.

pseudo grove Jan 28, 2017, 10:19 AM

#

This should be handled by SimC already

#

The thing is, the more Shadow Dance we have, the more MoS becomes OP.

arctic raft Jan 29, 2017, 8:28 PM

#

@chrome sun, what about situation when u have sblades up? Is it still worth stay within 5 to 10 cp range, or dump cp and get more sd stacks?

#

also i believe it should be better to go something like ss-ss (10 cp)->evis - ss (7+ cp)-evis repeat; at least on boss this one feels best for me on augur m

dense swift Jan 30, 2017, 4:00 PM

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That's under the assumption that it's more beneficial for dps to have Shadow Blades up during Shadow Dance as compared to when dance is down. Which is a faulty assumption

#

(Your first point, not the second)

pseudo grove Jan 30, 2017, 4:10 PM

#

finishing at 9+ is a dps loss

#

because cp overflow

#

ideal is between 5 et 7 (maybe 8) depending on energy (because relentless strike) and buff (because shadowstrike is better than backstab and there is ES/Boots)

pseudo grove Feb 1, 2017, 8:17 AM

#

Do someone can check Assa 2PC dmg with and without 5 AP Stacks ? just one muti with 0 AP Stack and one muti with 5 AP Stack

#

they might have "fixed" it aswell

#

just do that with a /combatlog uploaded to wcl, will be enough for me to check

pseudo grove Feb 1, 2017, 8:38 AM

#

Thanks @obsidian flower for logs.

#

To sum up:

Kingsbane tick increases on poison application is now only x1 instead of x2 (was a bug fixed in latest hotfix, and is only related to AP).
Assa 2PC is still bugged and still double dip on AP.
Any SimC nightly that will be published after this message will include the Kingsbane change.

stuck sapphire Feb 4, 2017, 7:01 PM

#

just for visibility:
there is a sub specific bug with the Legendary: mantle of-the-master-assassin
it can be reproduced by using shd while in in stealth.
the duration of stealth get extendet in that case.
the bug in use is documented on the WCL; link: https://goo.gl/uyV5TT

chrome sun Feb 4, 2017, 10:35 PM

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tell me more about this, i'm not sure i see what's going on

brazen jay Feb 4, 2017, 10:52 PM

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If you only deal damage or receive damage while both stealthed and in dance

#

stealth doesnt break

plush relic Feb 4, 2017, 11:25 PM

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it does not need mantle to happen, mantle just makes it op because of the crit buff

brazen jay Feb 4, 2017, 11:25 PM

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Ye, jsut another subterfuge bug

chrome sun Feb 5, 2017, 12:19 AM

#

gotta love the "well fed" buff translates to "eat enough"

pseudo grove Feb 5, 2017, 12:12 PM

#

Thanks for the public report (was whipes about this but was away).

#

Also, SimC does include the 4% Assa Buff in latest nightly

#

(In fact, they increased the Assa Aura "from PTR" (that is on Live) from 7% to 11%.)

acoustic lake Feb 5, 2017, 2:18 PM

#

this dance bug with stealth mantle whatever seems to have already been fixed, I don't seem to be able to reproduce it

#

Nope I was wrong it seems

#

but this is not as simple as I thought it was..

brazen jay Feb 5, 2017, 2:19 PM

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You just cannot do anything that would knock you out of stealth when dance is down

acoustic lake Feb 5, 2017, 2:20 PM

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Well not exactly, you can still use a finisher

#

Just not shuriken storm it seems?

brazen jay Feb 5, 2017, 2:20 PM

#

if you evi in stealth your stealth drops

acoustic lake Feb 5, 2017, 2:20 PM

#

Which is a pity because a dungeon would be the best place to uh, benefit from this feature

stuck sapphire Feb 5, 2017, 2:20 PM

#

the bug make your opener better tho you can use your shd charge first and dont lose the subterfuge/stealth

brazen jay Feb 5, 2017, 2:21 PM

#

This is obviously complitely broken in pvp

#

You can just kill people in bgs without them even seeing you

acoustic lake Feb 5, 2017, 2:24 PM

#

Well pvp, how long does dance last, 8 seconds or something wasn't it

brazen jay Feb 5, 2017, 2:24 PM

#

yup

#

and the talent giving you 30% faster cds etc makes this bug really abusable D:

acoustic lake Feb 5, 2017, 2:25 PM

#

Doubt it to last very long, someone would have read this discord by now I imagine

brazen jay Feb 5, 2017, 2:25 PM

#

quickly delete all the evidence

pseudo grove Feb 5, 2017, 3:22 PM

#

Yes I just reproduced it ingame

#

Finishers doesn't break stealth while shadow dance is ongoing, just have to refresh it at the right time (hard since it is affected by the gcd) for me (EU Server).

#

But you can open with ur ShD SS Macro instead of just SS and continue normally

#

I guess that extending the Stealth one time is optimal (especially since on pull ur 3rd charge is wated)

#

After that, I'm not sure extending it is worth, but maybe another one yes

#

Prolly not without mantle and prolly yes with

#

I'll implement it tomorrow in SimC

#

Nothing break it for me, neither SS ShStorm Evisc Nightblade

brazen jay Feb 5, 2017, 3:32 PM

#

Ye dance guards stealth from anything that would normally break it

pseudo grove Feb 5, 2017, 3:33 PM

#

Yes but @acoustic lake was saying Finishers was breaking it

#

Not the case for me

#

you aswell 😛 wEak - Today at 3:20 PM if you evi in stealth your stealth drops

#

Just need to handle ShD carefully, but in this case, EasyRaid will do it perfectly ! I just added the ShD in opener since it's 99% a gain, gonna see if it's worth to extend when I'll have implemented it into SimC.

#

Works only with Subterfuge btw, you can't cast ShD while being talented into Ns or SF, guess that is how they'll "temporary fix it", disabling ShD while Stealthed 😉 😉 😉

brazen jay Feb 5, 2017, 3:38 PM

#

Ye I should have said only in stealth it breaks. Just like it should

#

I was doing whole bgs without dropping stealth once

pseudo grove Feb 5, 2017, 3:46 PM

#

If only Blizzard would have done this "representative" thing I would have reported it to an appropriate person, but guess we'll just have to wait.
Hope we'll receive the Assassination treatment aswell btw, i.e. 4% buff.

little pelican Feb 5, 2017, 4:48 PM

#

why? sub seems fine (and broken) with mantle

stuck sapphire Feb 5, 2017, 4:53 PM

#

the #1 (krosus) log abused the bug

acoustic lake Feb 6, 2017, 2:11 AM

#

@pseudo grove Finishers didn't break it for me, shuriken storm broke it though

pseudo grove Feb 6, 2017, 8:25 AM

#

Nothing is breaking it for me.

pseudo grove Feb 6, 2017, 9:18 AM

#

PSA: While this bug is "fun" in PvE especially with Mantle (big dips), I recommend all of you to not abusing it especially in PvP. It can be seen as a perma-stealth "exploit" (it is in fact!) that can be bannable. You're warned!

pseudo grove Feb 8, 2017, 7:46 AM

#

Hello, so the perma-stealth bug has been hotfixed but isn't still fixed. You can somewhat still achieve it (the first dance on opener at least) and now can also do it on vanish !
Ican on MMO-C explained it well :

Shadow Dance now cancels stealth.
However, if you shadowdance before applying stealth, you will still be able to dps without breaking stealth for the duration of shadowdance even though shadowdance buff is not visible.(your character will glow purple for the duration.)
In combat vanish can also be done the same way, cast shadowdance right before vanish buff wears off to apply stealth onto you. Five seconds extra in stealth for the duration.```

pseudo grove Feb 8, 2017, 8:19 AM

#

Also, I'll publish the complete bug list tomorrow. 😃

pseudo grove Feb 8, 2017, 6:18 PM

#

/cast Stealth
/cast Shadowstrike```
Do not forget this macro to raid tonight Subtlety folks ! 😃

#

It works.

acoustic lake Feb 9, 2017, 3:15 AM

#

Just on pull yeah?

frozen brook Feb 9, 2017, 7:37 AM

#

so in order for the macro to works, we must at first be out of stealth at the start right?

#

i tried it in lfr, didnt work

#

nvm it works just need to be careful to not be in combat before

brazen jay Feb 9, 2017, 8:10 AM

#

Also works if you time your dsnce inbetween vanish dropping and stealth applying after vanish cast

frozen brook Feb 9, 2017, 8:14 AM

#

actually it's kinda hard to use the macro especially boss fight

#

since u cant get near enough to use sstrike

#

before combat

pseudo grove Feb 9, 2017, 1:30 PM

#

Yes on pull, you have to be out of stealth, so ideally you have your SoD refreshed at -4s or so, cancel stealth, go near the boss (15y is enough, even if it's 20y it's fine because you'll like loose 500ms it's okay) then press the macro. If you're in range, it'll port you, else just walk while spamming ur SS.

#

I did it the whole night yesterday, it's easy once used to.

#

Altough, I think they'll fix it someday, I twitted them again yesterday. Just pray for the % dmg compensation, especially if they remove step by step "all the tricks".

brazen jay Feb 10, 2017, 9:25 AM

#

Tell me Im not having power delusions. We know mantle buff gets extended due to vanish interaction with subterfuge. Now if we vanish and use 2 globals during vanish -> dos the last second of vanish and then 2s in regular stealth. Wouldnt this extend mantle buff even further

#

To 11-12 seconds

pseudo grove Feb 10, 2017, 9:28 AM

#

You won't have those 2s of regular stealth during a raid encounter.

brazen jay Feb 10, 2017, 9:29 AM

#

Why not. Vanish puts you into normal stealth and dos doesnt break it

#

So unless you take damage it should work

chrome sun Feb 10, 2017, 9:31 AM

#

huh.

pseudo grove Feb 10, 2017, 9:31 AM

#

Stealth doesn't proc from Vanish on a raid encounter.

#

You're always in combat, so stealth isn't castable so the vanish end cannot cast the stealth.

brazen jay Feb 10, 2017, 9:32 AM

#

Im pretty sure it does...

chrome sun Feb 10, 2017, 9:32 AM

#

well, you know how to demonstrate it 😉 go LFR and record?

brazen jay Feb 10, 2017, 9:33 AM

#

Im not home but just had to throw it out

chrome sun Feb 10, 2017, 9:33 AM

#

@pseudo grove I think that you might be wrong about this? I could be misinterpreting?

#

here's an Anare log

#

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/MaHJwcG8zr6YNpjd#view=events&type=casts&source=8&pins=0%24Separate%24%23244F4B%24auras-gained%240%240.0.0.Any%240.0.0.Any%24true%24130449187.0.0.Rogue%24false%24115191^0%24Separate%24%23909049%24auras-gained%240%240.0.0.Any%240.0.0.Any%24true%24130449187.0.0.Rogue%24false%24225141^0%24Separate%24%23a04D8A%24auras-gained%240%240.0.0.Any%240.0.0.Any%24true%24130449187.0.0.Rogue%24false%24115192^0%24Separate%24%23DF5353%24casts%240%240.0.0.Any%24130449187.0.0.Rogue%24true%240.0.0.Any%24false%241856

#

00:00:18.594 Anare casts Vanish

00:00:19.470 Anare gains Fel-Crazed Rage from Anare

00:00:19.472 Anare casts Fel-Crazed Rage

00:00:21.609 Anare gains Stealth from Anare

00:00:22.475 Anare's Fel-Crazed Rage fades from Anare

00:00:24.636 Anare gains Subterfuge from Anare

00:00:24.647 Anare's Stealth fades from Anare

00:00:26.542 Anare casts Mutilate Off-Hand on Xavius

00:00:26.545 Anare casts Mutilate on Xavius

00:00:27.559 Anare casts Rupture on Xavius

00:00:27.625 Anare's Subterfuge fades from Anare

brazen jay Feb 10, 2017, 9:34 AM

#

I mean

#

You stay in stealth if you vanish

#

To avoid dying

chrome sun Feb 10, 2017, 9:34 AM

#

certainly, shadowmeld won't take you out of combat

brazen jay Feb 10, 2017, 9:34 AM

#

Neither will vanish. Still grants stealth

pseudo grove Feb 10, 2017, 9:40 AM

#

that is

#

interesting

#

oh

#

DoS thing

#

let me check my logs

#

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/pWRYzZ6fJ9LGFq3w#fight=38&type=casts&source=95&pins=0%24Separate%24%23244F4B%24auras-gained%240%240.0.0.Any%240.0.0.Any%24true%24143541320.0.0.Rogue%24false%24115191^0%24Separate%24%23909049%24auras-gained%240%240.0.0.Any%240.0.0.Any%24true%24143541320.0.0.Rogue%24false%24115192^0%24Separate%24%23a04D8A%24auras-gained%240%240.0.0.Any%240.0.0.Any%24true%24143541320.0.0.Rogue%24false%24235027^0%24Separate%24%23DF5353%24auras-gained%240%240.0.0.Any%240.0.0.Any%24true%24143541320.0.0.Rogue%24false%242983&ability=1856&view=events

#

never gain stealth

brazen jay Feb 10, 2017, 9:42 AM

#

You have to stopattack

#

So autos dont break it

pseudo grove Feb 10, 2017, 9:43 AM

#

yes but DoS doesn't cancel AA, no ?

brazen jay Feb 10, 2017, 9:43 AM

#

No but you should be able to manually, right?

pseudo grove Feb 10, 2017, 9:45 AM

#

latest AA : 00:00:17.902 Anare Melee Xavius Miss

#

first AA after: 00:00:26.550 Anare Melee Xavius 83204

#

I guess he did a manual stopattack then

chrome sun Feb 10, 2017, 9:46 AM

#

so you'd stopattack prior to DoSing

#

?

pseudo grove Feb 10, 2017, 9:46 AM

#

maybe I'll have to add this stuff to simc, but those cancel AA things might be tricky

#

especially if the stealth that proc give you Master of Shadows energy back

#

have to test

brazen jay Feb 10, 2017, 9:47 AM

#

Im so sorry :D

#

Just thought to make mantle even more op

dense swift Feb 10, 2017, 9:47 AM

#

I'm confused, mainly because I'm working at the same time. But can someone tl;dr?

pseudo grove Feb 10, 2017, 9:48 AM

#

you have to stop aa when vanish is about to expire to get an extra stealth gcd

#

and so 1s of mantle

#

and with DoS

chrome sun Feb 10, 2017, 9:48 AM

#

weaving mantle + draught might trigger and re-trigger stealth if you do it right, and with subterfuge you might get up to 12s on mantle

pseudo grove Feb 10, 2017, 9:48 AM

#

you do it at this time

#

with a cancel AA to get 2,5s or so extra crit buff

brazen jay Feb 10, 2017, 9:48 AM

#

Yup

dense swift Feb 10, 2017, 9:48 AM

#

Ah

pseudo grove Feb 10, 2017, 9:48 AM

#

I get it

#

was tl;dring to Rosvall

chrome sun Feb 10, 2017, 9:48 AM

#

ah, same 😉

dense swift Feb 10, 2017, 9:48 AM

#

Thanks

brazen jay Feb 10, 2017, 9:49 AM

#

🤔

chrome sun Feb 10, 2017, 9:50 AM

#

sub is already pretty micro-intensive

#

gotta be honest, i kinda like it

brazen jay Feb 10, 2017, 9:50 AM

#

I love this

chrome sun Feb 10, 2017, 9:50 AM

#

same

brazen jay Feb 10, 2017, 9:50 AM

#

I live by this

dense swift Feb 10, 2017, 9:50 AM

#

I feel sub has always been filled with small tricks

chrome sun Feb 10, 2017, 9:50 AM

#

it's... pretty subtle, you might say 😉

#

okay, so: what I'd like to see from someone with Dos is the following

#

go into raid combat

#

vanish. cancel AA

#

DOS

#

(cancel AA with 1s left on vanish)

brazen jay Feb 10, 2017, 9:52 AM

#

Ill do it when I get home if no1 did it by then

chrome sun Feb 10, 2017, 9:52 AM

#

a log of this would be neato

#

10 imaginary internet points to the first person to get it

brazen jay Feb 10, 2017, 9:52 AM

#

Not fair man

pseudo grove Feb 10, 2017, 9:53 AM

#

and another one without cancelling AA 😉

dense swift Feb 10, 2017, 9:56 AM

#

If you want to be really fancy, you can time it so that you gain an extra tick of bleed

pseudo grove Feb 10, 2017, 9:58 AM

#

So, DoS usage would be :
W/O Mantle: During sprint_offensive
W/ Mantle: At the end of the vanish since it let you proc stealth (need to check AA thing)
right ? 😃

#

So, have to check the AA thing and the "on stealth" proc like Master of Shadows on this stealth proc

chrome sun Feb 10, 2017, 9:58 AM

#

i think that's a good summary

pseudo grove Feb 10, 2017, 9:59 AM

#

because if it does proc it, it has to be done even without mantle/dos

#

since it's free energy (unless u're full of energy ofc :D)

chrome sun Feb 10, 2017, 9:59 AM

#

i assume that this will be hotfixed

#

but then again, i said that about 40% finality and it's been ... a while

pseudo grove Feb 10, 2017, 9:59 AM

#

the "hotfix needed list" is getting longer and longer everyday so...

dense swift Feb 10, 2017, 10:00 AM

#

They do hotfix stuff. Just.. not the bugs

chrome sun Feb 10, 2017, 10:00 AM

#

"some random unimpactful set bonus for use in levelling dungeons has been removed"

dense swift Feb 10, 2017, 10:01 AM

#

"Something is causing X spec to do a lot of damage. Let's turn our new knobs down a bit for them" "Oh, this was the bug.. well let's fix that, probably wont affect anyone"

chrome sun Feb 10, 2017, 10:01 AM

#

ouch too close to home

pseudo grove Feb 10, 2017, 10:01 AM

#

I think the complete public list of bugs might change the things, well rather I hope.

dense swift Feb 10, 2017, 10:03 AM

#

If possible.. maybe we can supply some data "DPS with abusing bugs" "DPS without".
Blizzard doesn't really like when people feel forced to do weird unintuitive stuff in fear of losing dps

frozen brook Feb 10, 2017, 10:03 AM

#

isnt vanish stop our AA automatically?

pseudo grove Feb 10, 2017, 10:06 AM

#

it already exists in simc @dense swift bugs=0

#

or bug=0, to disable "all ingame bug"

#

but some are dps negative like the weaponmaster ones so

#

dps might be the same

dense swift Feb 10, 2017, 10:07 AM

#

Ah, yeah well I kinda mainly meant bugs that makes the player want to do something else in their rotations

#

Aethys, when you cancel AA + sprint. Do you do that in a macro? I have a feeling if one does it at the same time, some residue such as procs or equal might mess it up

#

I just do it manually because I like the control, but might be worth swapping up if it always works

chrome sun Feb 10, 2017, 10:09 AM

#

I've got it macro'd, but I usually step back from the boss before I do it

pseudo grove Feb 10, 2017, 10:10 AM

#

I do F1 + Sprint

#

but you can macro target me + sprint I assume

dense swift Feb 10, 2017, 10:10 AM

#

I just esc + sprint :p

#

But well if you can just /stopattack /sprint and that always works, it'd be optimal

#

I have a feeling it won't always though

frozen brook Feb 10, 2017, 10:12 AM

#

i used that macro and so far it always works for me

dense swift Feb 10, 2017, 10:12 AM

#

What happens if WM procs after if you run it? Or satyr's?

frozen brook Feb 10, 2017, 10:12 AM

#

i run mos

#

im not sure about satyr though

chrome sun Feb 10, 2017, 10:15 AM

#

i'm still not convinced I know what counts as "breaking the flickering shadows"

#

i wrote a (buggy) weak aura

#

it's right maybe 80% of the time

#

but the idea was to know when you've messed up the sprint and should just go back to your rotation

#

but i cannot for the life of me get a handle on what constitutes "taking damage" or "dealing damage"

#

i.e. a running DOT will not break it

#

but autoattacks will

#

does absorbing damage count? e.g. if you have a tirathon's betrayal shield up, and take damage, does that break the flicker?

#

etc

dense swift Feb 10, 2017, 10:17 AM

#

I guess that's quite easy to check

#

But tbh, in 99% of the cases "taking damage" is the only thing that breaks it I say

brazen jay Feb 10, 2017, 10:19 AM

#

Yeah. I havent found any damage in nh that didnt break flicker

brazen jay Feb 10, 2017, 5:07 PM

#

So this DOS testing.
I cannot personally do this as ptr is already 7.2 and subterfuge seems to be recoded there

#

It now force breaks stealth after you attack in vanish so this trick would not work

#

And no acces to dos on retail

pseudo grove Feb 10, 2017, 5:27 PM

#

hehe

#

guess we'll be buffed then 😛

brazen jay Feb 10, 2017, 5:29 PM

#

Now this also sometimes happens on live too

#

Like sometimes envenom during vanish forces subterfuge which forces out of stealth

#

Other times I can just env and afk and stealth pops

#

Side note perma stealth with dance still works on ptr

stuck sapphire Feb 10, 2017, 5:35 PM

#

@chrome sun need to recheck that with absorbed damage

small mountain Feb 10, 2017, 7:46 PM

#

I have DoS what you need testing

pseudo grove Feb 10, 2017, 9:25 PM

#

read above 😉

chrome sun Feb 11, 2017, 1:01 AM

#

[1:51 AM] deimos/synecdoche: go into raid combat
[1:51 AM] deimos/synecdoche: vanish. cancel AA
[1:51 AM] deimos/synecdoche: DOS
[1:52 AM] deimos/synecdoche: (cancel AA with 1s left on vanish)```

brazen jay Feb 11, 2017, 1:13 AM

#

Have not being able to reproduce the stealth regulardly.

Most of the times subterfuge procs from first global after vanish. Sometimes it procs from second globa.

And any time you proc subter you are forced out of stealth. So I guess it was just a power fantasy all along

little pelican Feb 11, 2017, 9:29 AM

#

What about Mantle+Subter functionality in 7.2 then

#

seems like it would break the 9s stealth part too

stuck sapphire Feb 11, 2017, 3:53 PM

#

can somone test my Flickering shadows Weakaura?:
http://pastebin.com/eVU1Djzh
with sound:
http://pastebin.com/isar2Gc6
use together with macro:
/cast sprint
/stopattack
btw. absorbed damage also breaks flickering.

Pastebin

Flickering Shadows Weakaura(no sound) by fuu - Pastebin.com

Pastebin

Flickering Shadows Weakaura by fuu - Pastebin.com

brazen jay Feb 11, 2017, 4:00 PM

#

You forgot outgoing damage

#

Other than that looks fine

stuck sapphire Feb 11, 2017, 4:10 PM

#

i thought there is no need for that bc. you use /stopattack

brazen jay Feb 11, 2017, 4:11 PM

#

O right, didnt realize 😄

#

But seemed to work fine 👌
How would I go if I wanted to add a sound on fail?

stuck sapphire Feb 11, 2017, 4:22 PM

#

updated the weakauras.
if you want to change the sound file just change the sound path in the aura_env.fail function (FS_Text->actions)

dense swift Feb 13, 2017, 4:24 PM

#

@stuck sapphire Wanted to try this out, so just did it on a target dummy. It's loaded and all, but neither the icon nor the text shows. Can't see why. Also tried changing display icon etc if the case was I was missing it, but mh

stuck sapphire Feb 13, 2017, 4:27 PM

#

ill try i may messed up sth with export

#

moment

#

ye sry i messed up and anorchered it to the personal ressource frame befor exporting moment, reupload

dense swift Feb 13, 2017, 4:29 PM

#

Yeah that fixed it, thanks

#

@stuck sapphire Just a tip. But with WA you might want to add ,"Master") as th second argument in PlaySoundFile(path, channel). Will make it work even for people who play with game sounds muted

stuck sapphire Feb 13, 2017, 4:43 PM

#

ah ye thanks, not that familiar with lua ^^

winged lily Feb 15, 2017, 6:04 PM

#

any of you chaps

#

know if NE racial can get you into stealth?

#

shadowmeld, that is

#

can you shadowmeld > stealth?

white trail Feb 15, 2017, 6:06 PM

#

not in combat

winged lily Feb 15, 2017, 6:08 PM

#

gotcha.
thanks.

chrome sun Feb 15, 2017, 6:45 PM

#

it will work on M+ trash, but not M+ bosses, or raids

#

i.e. if the encounter would prevent you from leaving combat, shadowmeld can't be used to get into stealth

winged lily Feb 15, 2017, 6:49 PM

#

👌

grizzled bobcat Feb 16, 2017, 4:53 PM

#

can someone elaborate on the idea from the other day about extending vanish with DoS? obviously only really relevant with shoulders

#

I just got DoS and was testing last night. I tried pressing DoS immediately after vanish, and also after 1 GCD when the vanish buff was still up. didn't seem to work, the shoulders and vanish were giving the normal buff duration. am I missing something?

dense swift Feb 16, 2017, 5:12 PM

#

Did you cancel AA's?

grizzled bobcat Feb 16, 2017, 5:16 PM

#

yes

brazen jay Feb 16, 2017, 5:25 PM

#

Youre not missinganything. It didnt work out as I planned. Either it was changed some weeks ago or I remember horribly wrong

grizzled bobcat Feb 16, 2017, 7:35 PM

#

okay good, just wanted to be sure

pseudo grove Feb 22, 2017, 9:29 AM

#

Quick update on the Vanish - Stealth mechanic, Stealth seems to proc only if you don't have Subterfuge (and you don't break Vanish before the end of the buff), so the only way to proc Stealth 100% of the time is to afk during Vanish buff.

As of today, I don't see any gain doing this EXCEPT if you got DoS trinket and Mantle leggo:

For example, as Subtlety, you would do Sprint, then at < 0.5s left before Flickering Shadows proc (Sprint < 5.5s), you DoS, then you ShD and wait for the Stealth proc of Vanish so you get a free Extended stealth with a 2.5s+ mantle buff (depending on how fast you can DoS near the end of Sprint and how fast you can ShD when DoS expires and before Vanish expires).

Altogether, you get 3 + 4.5 + 6 = 13.5s Mantle Buff. Remember that Extended Stealth means 4.5s+ of Stealth + 3s of Subterfuge.

pseudo grove Feb 23, 2017, 3:05 PM

#

In regards to one popular thread on MMO-C, I did a reply (see http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2166203-Nightblooming-Frond?p=44705127&viewfull=1#post44705127), I'm quoting it there since it's something recurrent (DoS, Frond, ...) :


Some RPPM are scaling with haste yes, but not Frond (nor CoF nor Foci, Arcanogolem Digit is for example) altough the proc of Frond is based on Atk Speed (and Haste increases Atk Speed), so yes SnD make the proc better but it won't give you more procs (Haste aswell).

Also (as some mentionned), benchmarking a trinket by looking at %overall dmg over one or some attempts isn't a good way to compare 2 trinkets (in the DoS vs Frond debate), especially when those trinkets doesn't have the same stats (Haste vs Agi).

About Haste, generally it's a bad stat for Rogue except for Outlaw where in some case it's something good. (T19 reduced this effect since we have now a lot of energy, but still, it's not as bad as the others 2 specs)

Finally, yes Frond is an RPPM so yes it's pretty RnG.
SimC is okay with Frond (it was nerfed right after NH release before being buffed back, the nerf was that the dmg gain per stack was 50% of the first intent, they changed it back to 100% recently).

To be honest, it's a pretty good trinket that can be godlike if you have good RnG and a bit disappointing if you aren't lucky.
Overall, don't forget the Agility on the trinket and the fact that Agility is by far the best stats for Rogue. (We aren't the kind of classes with some Secondaries better than Primary)

PS : Some DoS sims can be wrong because of the APL that don't do a good usage of it, feel free to open an issue on Github if you spot something weird (and especially if you have the solution !).```

#

Also, there is another popular thread about 7.2 Outlaw Nerfs. This is wrong, Blunderbuss hasn't been nerfed, the 7 -> 4 multiplier change is just a tooltip change. The detailed explanation is because it's a 4 part dmg ability (>= 7.1.5) that was previously (in < 7.1) a 7 parts dmg ability. The tooltip on 7.2 reflects how the ability acts already on Live.
About the Fatebringer nerf, they did a 4% buff in the aura to offset this.

There were nerfs and changes, I tried to details things yesterday during my stream, I decided to highlight it and put it as VOD on Youtube, you can retrieve it here (I cutted it a bit more today, so you will have the essentials in less than 10mins): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeTE_mSZZBY

I'll continue to do this on every patch as I know that datamining and spell data changes might be weird sometimes, hope it'll help you to see better what's coming for us.

white trail Feb 23, 2017, 3:20 PM

#

RPPM is scaling with haste yes what did I miss?

#

for Frond it doesn't say that it scales with haste

pseudo grove Feb 23, 2017, 3:39 PM

#

You're right @white trail, thanks, I fixed it.

pseudo grove Feb 26, 2017, 1:05 AM

#

Gain of the Extended Stealth on Pull w/ Mantle (DPS Loss w/o)

📎 unknown.png

#

Target Error: 0.05% /// Fight Length: 300s +-30% (The shorter the fight is, the higher the gain is)

brazen jay Feb 26, 2017, 1:07 AM

#

You tried whether the sprint/dos combo is worth it. As it feels like it slows the dance cycling down quite a bit due to missed sprints

pseudo grove Feb 26, 2017, 1:10 AM

#

Normal or Mantle one ?

brazen jay Feb 26, 2017, 1:11 AM

#

Via mantle. Losing sprint vanishes along with having to spend dance on vanish

pseudo grove Feb 26, 2017, 1:11 AM

#

From my tests, delaying Sprint by 20s is worth for DoS

brazen jay Feb 26, 2017, 1:11 AM

#

Really seems to drop dance uptime

pseudo grove Feb 26, 2017, 1:12 AM

#

But it's early results 😃

#

Didn't implemented all the bugs we have (I mean, features!)

pseudo grove Feb 26, 2017, 4:19 PM

#

At this moment (now that I've implemented everything correctly), delaying DoS for the 100% and do the Sprint, when Flickering Shadows will proc use DoS then proc Extended Stealth isn't a dps gain, it's a dps loss:

#

📎 unknown.png

#

New is Sprint + DoS, Default is Sprint ... DoS ... ShD ... Normal

brazen jay Feb 26, 2017, 4:28 PM

#

You happen to have the html?

pseudo grove Mar 6, 2017, 9:19 AM

#

Interesting, didn't know Ago was snapshotting SoT, so if you re-apply the 5th stack with SoT, you'll keep the increased % until a re-apply without SoT.
Same as if you re-apply before SoT, you won't have the increased % until a new apply.

brazen jay Mar 6, 2017, 10:13 AM

#

Driving reason for sot cplipping

chrome sun Mar 6, 2017, 11:59 AM

#

Conjecture: suppose we wrote an APL that tracked both ShT procs and Enveloping Shadows

#

might it make sense for 4p sub to play ShT, Enveloping Shadows with DS?

#

The driving reason to play anticipation there was minimizing CP loss, but if you swap Premed for ES you have a bit more control on timing.

#

It also has the advantage of increasing the relative power of shadowblades for shadowstrike, 1.3 CP -> 2.3CP in expectation versus the current assumed default of 2.3 -> 3.3 CP

#

would be quite a bit more micro-intensive, as a downside

pseudo grove Mar 6, 2017, 12:02 PM

#

Mastery has no effect on ES and you loose one finisher

chrome sun Mar 6, 2017, 12:02 PM

#

this is true; it also costs a GCD and energy

pseudo grove Mar 6, 2017, 12:06 PM

#

@brazen jay yes

pseudo grove Mar 11, 2017, 11:45 AM

#

Can't wait to see how they'll fix legendaries ❤

frozen brook Mar 11, 2017, 12:37 PM

#

wondering how will they 'fix' mantle. duration nerf maybe?

pseudo grove Mar 11, 2017, 12:57 PM

#

No, they'll buff it 😄

#

It's basically Subterfuge that makes it strong, not the effect itself.

small mountain Mar 11, 2017, 1:25 PM

#

even with 6 seconds its pretty strong?

#

im pretty sure it will get nerfed, its universally too good

pseudo grove Mar 11, 2017, 2:41 PM

#

We'll see, hope they'll fix Sub Boots. 5 energy no matter the distance, 10 or 15 if u're > 10 or 15y.

#

Simple fix to fix the gameplay

#

well, currently we got 6 on bosses, but I guess they will prefer put 5 rather than 6

#

what makes Mantle OP is : CDR on Vanish for Outlaw, Subterfuge "Bugs" for Assa & Sub and, Assa high burst short window (KB/Vendetta/...) synced with the buff and Sprint Vanish for Subtlety

#

I hope they'll change Flickering Shadows but I guess it won't happen.

fathom bramble Mar 11, 2017, 3:07 PM

#

they'll leave as is, cos why not

#

just buff others

pseudo grove Mar 11, 2017, 3:31 PM

#

The mastery scaling along those damage modifiers in 7.2 😅

pseudo grove Mar 11, 2017, 5:49 PM

#

Extended Stealth bug is a benefit without Mantle on opener btw

#

Low impact if you have Prydaz and Valeera ofc, but if you have dps leggo the impact becomes bigger.

#

Mostly because you refill the 3rd charge of ShD before starting having any CDR benefit from Deepening Shadows (while comparing to the case where you don't use the bug), so you increases Stealth uptime at no cost.

stuck sapphire Mar 11, 2017, 5:53 PM

#

ye but you need a brave group that doesent pulls to early else you lose your subterfuge

pseudo grove Mar 11, 2017, 5:53 PM

#

No that's false

#

Just make a macro without Shadow Strike

#

/cast Stealth
/use Your_Potion```

#

use this at -1s (or even at -2s if ur group is really bad) and SS when it pulls 😃

#

You can add Shadow Blades if you're lazy (or do a macro with SBlades and SS)

stuck sapphire Mar 11, 2017, 5:55 PM

#

so you lose 0.5 secs(or more) of shd

pseudo grove Mar 11, 2017, 5:55 PM

#

Yes but still okay because you have 5+0.9s of Shadow Dance buff (and you use only 5s = 5gcd)

stuck sapphire Mar 11, 2017, 5:56 PM

#

ye i should have been clear that i talk about using
/shadowdance
/stealth
as late as possible (0.5-0.3 secs pre pull)

brazen jay Mar 11, 2017, 6:03 PM

#

When you do this

#

You dont actually gain dance

#

You just gain a bugged version of stealth

#

Which lasts for dance + stealth /w subter afterwards

dense swift Mar 11, 2017, 6:17 PM

#

To be fair, you have more shadow dance time than you need

#

0,9999... gcd worth of it

brazen jay Mar 11, 2017, 6:18 PM

#

Obviously this is beneficial

#

Just might be confusing to some as you dong gain dance buff

pseudo grove Mar 17, 2017, 2:04 PM

#

Considering 7.2 is around the corner and it might not be fixed until then, I'll post it here for more visiblity.

Subterfuge proc does break Vanish on 7.2 (RIP 9s Mantle Buff)
DoS does break Vanish (RIP DoS during Mantle Buff with Nightstalker)
DoS still doesn't break Flickering Shadows (Subtlety only)
More soon, I just logged on PTR for 1 hour or so, didn't tested everything.

#

Finality: Eviscerate bug is fixed, weaponmaster procs will correctly set the right number of CP and anticipation scales properly up to 20% (was 40%). Both thing were the same bugs (it was snapshotting the combo_points on cast rather than the combo_points spent)

frozen brook Mar 17, 2017, 2:19 PM

#

IF this MoSub is not a bug we can say weaponmaster will be ahead?

pseudo grove Mar 17, 2017, 2:20 PM

#

I edited, it should be okay in fact.
Considering the high stealth uptime we have, I doubt. But we'll see.

worldly nebula Mar 17, 2017, 2:35 PM

#

when did these change? http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/theory/mechanic/lookup/basestatsrace?spec=RogueSubtlety&version=live

#

i was wondering why my ingame tooltip for agi displays a different base value than what simc and shc use, AMR's values seem to be right now

pseudo grove Mar 23, 2017, 7:08 PM

#

Anyone know how the new Outlaw gold trait works exactly ?

civic umbra Mar 23, 2017, 10:49 PM

#

The Loaded Dice?

pseudo grove Mar 23, 2017, 11:08 PM

#

yes

#

The mechanic behind, the fact that it gives a 2 buffs roll is something I am aware 😃 😃

civic umbra Mar 24, 2017, 12:48 AM

#

yeah you pop AR and highlights your roll the bones and gives you at least a 2

#

pretty autism cause before without cof youd not use AR till you got TB anyway

#

it was mostly for the second roll i guess

#

either way its not as bad as i originally thought, just still not a solution to the problem that is the spec xd

pseudo grove Mar 24, 2017, 2:05 AM

#

yes but what does it do behind ? Does it blacklist 1 buff choice ? Does it roll until it's a 2+ one ? Does it roll the 5 remaining buffs if you get one ?

#

That's my point

#

Maybe for now I'll just roll it until it got a 2+ buffs on SimC

civic umbra Mar 24, 2017, 2:30 AM

#

It would blacklist the 1 buff choice completely, hopefully, raising the chance of a 3 or 6. if it just makes the chance to make the 1 buff into a 2 buff, it seems a lot more mediocre

pseudo grove Mar 24, 2017, 3:00 AM

#

that's the question 😃

brazen jay Mar 24, 2017, 9:00 AM

#

Ill get some data from tonights ptr bosses.

#

Fun times ahead 🤔

brazen jay Mar 24, 2017, 8:04 PM

#

Ye its just that it blacklists one buff

#

Even the tooltip was updated to at least two matches

pseudo grove Mar 24, 2017, 8:07 PM

#

both things are possible

#

but they changes odds

#

depending on how they does

brazen jay Mar 24, 2017, 8:10 PM

#

Think I rolled like 4 3 buffs over 40 casts

pseudo grove Mar 24, 2017, 8:11 PM

#

so they prolly convert 1 rolls to 2 rolls

#

lmao

#

😄

brazen jay Mar 24, 2017, 8:11 PM

#

Pretty small sample size but it was very rare to see more than 2

worldly nebula Mar 24, 2017, 8:13 PM

#

it's hard to confirm without a huge sample size

#

these should be the probabilities https://puu.sh/uWTAp/11553dcea2.png

white trail Mar 25, 2017, 5:12 AM

#

@brazen jay do you have log?

brazen jay Mar 25, 2017, 7:59 AM

#

It is all private as it is ptr boss testing, sorry

pseudo grove Mar 25, 2017, 1:40 PM

#

If you want to help me implement the 7.2 Traits (Patch is Tuesday) to give hints about Artifact Path, I'll need your help.
To have the 7.2 Traits we have to be in a dungeon on PTR. I thought about Court of Star because if you're Engineer (and my char is), you can disable the Horses and hit them like a Dummy. Unfortunately, the item is not here for me (I tried several reset and it's still not there).
So, if someone got it in its dungeon and would like to invite me, it would be cool. I have my char on Benedictus-Alliance. Thanks in advance.

PS: If you got another strategy to have 7.2 traits or an instance with mobs that didn't hit back, let me know.
PS2: You can enter CoS in any difficulty on PTR, Mythic prefered because they have more HP. (They doesn't regen)

pseudo grove Mar 25, 2017, 2:00 PM

#

Confirm one of the doubt, it's 5 energy even when we got the extra CP proc. (It was something that was asked)

📎 unknown.png

fathom bramble Mar 25, 2017, 2:10 PM

#

that makes sense seeing as it says when ShT procs 😛

pseudo grove Mar 25, 2017, 2:11 PM

#

yes but it needs a confirm, you know with Blizzard we aren't sure how things are done 😛

#

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/244072792948080641/295200559206760448/unknown.png

#

Unlike what the tooltip shows, it's 0.5s 😉

#

My stopwatch as proof 😄

#

(And 0.5s is what is in Spell Data)

#

So I guess the Poison Bomb % rate is 2.5% and not 3.1% as the tooltip shows aswell.

little pelican Mar 25, 2017, 2:39 PM

#

ye that was changed last ptr patch

pseudo grove Mar 25, 2017, 2:41 PM

#

What do u mean ?

#

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/244072792948080641/295205428701298688/unknown.png

#

mage got same issue

#

it's 0.5s

little pelican Mar 25, 2017, 2:43 PM

#

(the poison bomb) went from 3% to 2.5% last ptr notes

#

i cant explain this .1 issue

fathom bramble Mar 25, 2017, 2:44 PM

#

probably forgot to update tooltips

pseudo grove Mar 25, 2017, 2:44 PM

#

no

#

tooltips were right some days ago

#

and poison bomb changed weeks ago

#

anyway, I've done the mechanic research I had to for all specs

#

only secret for me is their RtB bad luck protection

#

but for now, it'll be done this way -> normal roll, if it's a 1 buff, then add a 2nd buff by doing a roll between the remaining buffs

#

because I don't know if they used the same system as the initial roll the bones or not

#

I wish Sigma would pop here and tell us, but, it's just a wish.

little pelican Mar 25, 2017, 6:23 PM

#

@pseudo grove do you know what causes NS sims to have insanely high garrote dmg on the pull from stealth?

#

📎 results_html.html

#

(higher garrote dmg than a sim with subterfuge)

#

also, looking at the spellsequence and garrote DPS graph, in-combat vanish-subt-garrotes seem to not affect garrote damage at all.

#

or is subterfuge simply not adding garrote dps on ptr=1

#

(it doesnt add garrote dmg on live either)

#

i think subterfuge is simply not working in sims

#

maybe its a 1.25 mod typo instead of 2.25 (as Miie suggested), I cant see it

chrome sun Mar 26, 2017, 5:25 AM

#

let's take a look at the source

#

https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/blob/legion-dev/engine/class_modules/sc_rogue.cpp#L2950-L2953

GitHub

simulationcraft/simc

simc - Simulationcraft engine/GUI

#

so maybe the spell data is weird, somehow, because that code looks right to me

brazen jay Mar 26, 2017, 9:18 AM

#

Yes and the issue is with NS

#

Would seem that NS simply uses the damage of subter garrote and adds 50%

#

Aka almost 4 multiplier for ns instead of 1.5

#

With my personal gear garrote max tick:

No talent around 200k
NS around 300k
Subter just above 400k

pallid halo Mar 26, 2017, 11:17 AM

#

Regarding Loaded Dice, the behavior is the blacklist model. The resulting probabilities for 2, 3 and 6 buffs are all modified as a result. Single buffs are not just rolled into the 2 buff probability.

#

So, it is the same as it is now, just remove the single rolls as a possibility

#

Basicly, the way you would expect it to work.

pseudo grove Mar 26, 2017, 12:44 PM

#

@pallid halo Thanks I wasn't sure

civic umbra Mar 27, 2017, 3:05 AM

#

Wait so that means it does not modify the 3 and 6 buff probability outcomes?

pallid halo Mar 27, 2017, 3:07 AM

#

just imagine that it keeps rolling until it wins a 2, 3 or 6

civic umbra Mar 27, 2017, 3:09 AM

#

Ahh that's lame. I was hoping it would adjust the percentages, instead of blacklisting (iirc it would still be only ~3% for a 6 buff)

pallid halo Mar 27, 2017, 3:10 AM

#

i don't even know the regular percentages 😛

#

removing the single rolls will boost the average performance per roll, that what it does

#

has the additional benefit in that you no longer spend your whole ar rerolling too 😛

civic umbra Mar 27, 2017, 3:14 AM

#

these should be the probabilities https://puu.sh/uWTAp/11553dcea2.png

#

I lied, it's closer to ~4% for a 6 buff xd

pallid halo Mar 27, 2017, 3:16 AM

#

those are relative to the base?

civic umbra Mar 27, 2017, 3:16 AM

#

Base is column one yes; if the ones are rerolled it's the second column

pallid halo Mar 27, 2017, 3:16 AM

#

i do know 3 rolls goes up

civic umbra Mar 27, 2017, 3:17 AM

#

Hoping for the second column

pallid halo Mar 27, 2017, 3:17 AM

#

those are all positive, unless i'm reading it wrong

civic umbra Mar 27, 2017, 3:18 AM

#

Yes but the main change we are talking about whether the result of a single buff is added to the a double buff

#

Or if it's blacklisted, increasing all higher possibility rolls, by different margins

pallid halo Mar 27, 2017, 3:19 AM

#

yes, on the second one

civic umbra Mar 27, 2017, 3:19 AM

#

Awesome, that's good news for the dying spec.

pallid halo Mar 27, 2017, 3:20 AM

#

lol, language is hard

civic umbra Mar 27, 2017, 3:20 AM

#

Yeah ><

pallid halo Mar 27, 2017, 3:20 AM

#

😃

#

omg, i know what i did wrong

#

~ looks like -

#

lmao

#

was like, how can that be negative

worldly nebula Mar 27, 2017, 4:21 AM

#

yep, it's the second column in practise

pseudo grove Mar 27, 2017, 5:39 AM

#

@little pelican @tough sleet @chrome sun Garrote is fixed. 7.2 things should be in tonight.

#

https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/commit/8a83db7a03a233564e5f708930b4ffe47d5f4e1c

GitHub

[Rogue] Fix Non-Subterfuge Garrote · simulationcraft/simc@8a83db...

chrome sun Mar 27, 2017, 5:40 AM

#

Nicely done. I'm moving apartments (rent in SF is insane) and cannot take time to roll through the commit, but I trust you've done some nice work as per usual 😃

pseudo grove Mar 27, 2017, 5:40 AM

#

p() -> talent.subterfuge -> ok() 😄 😄 😄 😄 😄

chrome sun Mar 27, 2017, 5:41 AM

#

🤔

#

😄

pseudo grove Mar 27, 2017, 5:41 AM

#

I (or navv or skasch ?) forgot it ^^

chrome sun Mar 27, 2017, 5:41 AM

#

👍

little pelican Mar 27, 2017, 9:02 AM

#

looks good aethys, the god ❤

worldly nebula Mar 27, 2017, 6:16 PM

#

not sure if anybody noticed this, but on PTR sephuz adds more haste than it should, obiously

#

it's HastePercent * 1.02 + 2%

brazen jay Mar 27, 2017, 6:17 PM

#

Isnt it just a 2% multiplier?

worldly nebula Mar 27, 2017, 6:17 PM

#

https://puu.sh/v0iTK/1637ee3e1d.png

brazen jay Mar 27, 2017, 6:18 PM

#

Ye, 118 * 1.02

#

Just as it should

worldly nebula Mar 27, 2017, 6:19 PM

#

11.8 * 1.02 = 12.04

brazen jay Mar 27, 2017, 6:19 PM

#

But I dont get whats the surprising part, its just a multiplicative 2% of haste, just like any other haste buff

worldly nebula Mar 27, 2017, 6:20 PM

#

read the numbers again pls

brazen jay Mar 27, 2017, 6:21 PM

#

Sure its not just tooltip?

worldly nebula Mar 27, 2017, 6:22 PM

#

the tooltip is pretty much the only haste % indicator we have

brazen jay Mar 27, 2017, 6:23 PM

#

Could try with mage teleports

worldly nebula Mar 27, 2017, 6:27 PM

#

i compared with the MH speed returned by UnitAttackSpeed and it's also using that percentage

brazen jay Mar 27, 2017, 6:28 PM

#

But dont all haste buffs again work like sephuz

#

That would seem normal to me

worldly nebula Mar 27, 2017, 6:28 PM

#

double dipping?

brazen jay Mar 27, 2017, 6:28 PM

#

IV on mage, alac on rogue, tw

#

All work like this

worldly nebula Mar 27, 2017, 6:31 PM

#

wow, you're right

brazen jay Mar 27, 2017, 6:36 PM

#

Why it raises in value for specs like frost mage and sp

little pelican Mar 27, 2017, 6:37 PM

#

what r you guys talking about

#

sephuz just adds a flat 2% extra haste

#

aka 700 haste stats or w/e

brazen jay Mar 27, 2017, 6:37 PM

#

no

little pelican Mar 27, 2017, 6:38 PM

#

wait, what?

brazen jay Mar 27, 2017, 6:39 PM

#

None of the games haste buffs work like that

#

They are separate multipliers to haste rating

worldly nebula Mar 27, 2017, 6:39 PM

#

see my screenshot, that's 4426 haste from gear 4426/375=11.8%, rest is what sephuz adds

little pelican Mar 27, 2017, 6:40 PM

#

yes, so 2% putting you at 13.8 = 14% unrounded ?

#

if it added 2-25% to haste rating it would be fucking useless for specs that dont have haste, and even if u have a bit, say 1k

#

the sephuz proc gives u 250 rating?

#

or what r u saying

#

i simply dont understand

worldly nebula Mar 27, 2017, 6:40 PM

#

that's my point exaclty, i'd expect 11.8 + 2, but its 11.8 * 1.02 +2

brazen jay Mar 27, 2017, 6:41 PM

#

Log a mage, pop IV and tw and see your haste

#

Doesnt go from 10% to 70%

worldly nebula Mar 27, 2017, 6:41 PM

#

yeah, i just tested alacrity

brazen jay Mar 27, 2017, 6:41 PM

#

More so pointed for alaiz :p

#

So in this case frost mage and sp gain insane value from seppu

little pelican Mar 27, 2017, 6:42 PM

#

they wouldnt gain any fucking value if it didnt give flat haste at all

#

my haste goes from 6 to 80% on my frost mage when i pop those 2 cds

worldly nebula Mar 27, 2017, 6:48 PM

#

oh, stupid me, now i found my mistake: i have to calculate 1.118 * 1.02, yeah

brazen jay Mar 27, 2017, 6:48 PM

#

Ye you have to do the calcs with 100 + your haste rating

#

so 0 haste yes seppu is 2%

pallid halo Mar 28, 2017, 5:43 PM

#

Can someone explain to me the shoulder/subterfuge situation? Some are saying subterfuge was broken instead.

pseudo grove Mar 28, 2017, 5:43 PM

#

Subterfuge breaks Vanish

pallid halo Mar 28, 2017, 5:44 PM

#

no 3 seconds of stealth with subterfuge and vanish?

pseudo grove Mar 28, 2017, 5:45 PM

#

well

#

you still get subterfuge

#

but not anymore vanish

#

while before you had both

#

making shoulders "op"

pallid halo Mar 28, 2017, 5:47 PM

#

oh, that old double vanish bug was still around?

pseudo grove Mar 28, 2017, 5:47 PM

#

yeah

#

it's a legacy of glyph of vanish I guess

#

rather

pallid halo Mar 28, 2017, 5:48 PM

#

ok, yeah, i think i understand why people are upset now

pseudo grove Mar 28, 2017, 5:48 PM

#

it's 5% dps nerf on sub with mantle

pallid halo Mar 28, 2017, 5:48 PM

#

used to the bugged behavior

pseudo grove Mar 28, 2017, 5:49 PM

#

~

pallid halo Mar 28, 2017, 5:50 PM

#

do we know the nerf without mantle, is it substantial?

pseudo grove Mar 28, 2017, 5:51 PM

#

it's a nerf for MoS and Mantle

tough sleet Mar 28, 2017, 5:55 PM

#

So some interesting math here. Thanks to @Caeriss for making me explore this line of thought.

Since Mastery will boost Env damage but not Bleed damage eventually we will reach a point where A NS Env will be superior to a NS rupture.

At 170% Mastery
Nightstalker Mantled Env
Mantle (5cp NS Env 3475% AP + 4cp env 1853.3% AP 4cp Env 1853.3% AP )+ 5cp Rup 3093.75% AP = 10275.3% AP
Nightstalker Mantled Rupture
Mantle (5cp NS Rup 5197.5%AP + 4cp Env 1853.3% + 4cp Env 1853.3% AP) + 5cp Env 1447.9% AP = 10352% AP

At 180% Mastery
Nightstalker Mantled Env
Mantle (5cp NS Env 3603.6% AP + 4cp env 1992% AP 4cp Env 1922% AP )+ 5cp Rup 3093.75% AP = 10681.35% AP
Nightstalker Mantled Rupture
Mantle (5cp NS Rup 5197.5%AP + 4cp Env 1992% + 4cp Env 1992% AP) + 5cp Env 1501.5% AP = 10683% AP

At 190% Mastery
Nightstalker Mantled Env
Mantle (5cp NS Env 3732.3% AP + 4cp env 1990.6% AP 4cp Env 1990.6% AP )+ 5cp Rup 3093.75% AP = 10807.2% AP
Nightstalker Mantled Rupture
Mantle (5cp NS Rup 5197.5%AP + 4cp Env 1990.6% + 4cp Env 1990.6% AP) + 5cp Env 1555% AP = 10733.2% AP

Above 180% Mastery with 25% crit a NS env is better than a NS rupture.
The higher your crit the more mastery you will need for a NS env to beat a NS rupture.

After testing in Simulationcraft the mastery required to make this switch is much lower than I initially thought. With my gearset which gives me 155% mastery, dps output between nightstalker rupture and nightstalker envenom was within the margin of error. Nightstalker Env was superior with 4/4 GW 4/4 TB and 4/4 SE. With higher mastery nightstalker envenom would only become stronger and stronger.

The reason for this is because vanish env will get the full effect of mantle. A vanish nightstalker will only get a few ticks with the 100% crit. So getting 100%crit on 3 ticks of a 150% rupture is worth less than a 5cp 100% crit env, especially, when you consider that when you vanish you would already have Rupture ongoing and that bleed would still benefit from mantle.

little pelican Mar 28, 2017, 8:18 PM

#

is BotA in this calc?

tough sleet Mar 28, 2017, 9:04 PM

#

No. I'll add it but there are some other things we have to consider as well. Just going to sim it once we get a feature complete simc for 7.2

pseudo grove Mar 28, 2017, 9:18 PM

#

it's complete

pallid halo Mar 29, 2017, 1:47 AM

#

do we have numbers on the impact of the "mantle nerf" for mantle and non-mantle users, additionally, is there information on relative values of talents on the MoS tier now?

#

I am compiling feedback regarding the change.

tough sleet Mar 29, 2017, 2:44 AM

#

With my apls there is a 3k dps difference between subterfuge and nightstalker. They are well balanced atm. Nightstalker is good for some situations and subterfuge others. This is with mantle.

pseudo grove Mar 29, 2017, 11:01 PM

#

00:01:07.113    Aèthÿs Garrote Gul'dan Tick 80505
00:01:07.522    Aèthÿs Melee Gul'dan *71511*
00:01:07.555    Aèthÿs gains Recursive Strikes (6) from Aèthÿs
00:01:07.555    Aèthÿs gains Recursive Strikes (7) from Aèthÿs
00:01:07.555    Aèthÿs Recursive Strikes Gul'dan *135406*
00:01:07.812    Aèthÿs Melee Gul'dan 17838
00:01:07.843    Aèthÿs gains Recursive Strikes (8) from Aèthÿs
00:01:07.843    Aèthÿs Recursive Strikes Gul'dan 90271
00:01:08.489    Aèthÿs Rupture Gul'dan Tick *280766*```

#

why did I get 2x stacks ?

tough sleet Mar 29, 2017, 11:07 PM

#

Mh Oh?

pseudo grove Mar 29, 2017, 11:15 PM

#

that's 2 then

#

not 3

#

I gained 2 on the same AA (MH) and one on the other AA (OH)

#

and not possible to track ago refresh so :/

pseudo grove Mar 30, 2017, 6:58 AM

#

About the hotfix, Sinister Circulation is 0.5s CDR (and not 1.1s like the tooltip mays show ingame), and the 0.5s proc cooldown is to prevent incredible KB reduction while using FoK. Will also affects the ST portion (for double application).

willow pasture Mar 30, 2017, 8:06 AM

#

Possible you refreshed the proc at that point and that's why you got a 2nd stack ? 1 for the hit one for the refresh ?

pseudo grove Mar 30, 2017, 8:07 AM

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Hmm, that's possible let me see the full duration.

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I moved on something else and didn't check deeply, too much things to do since 7.2 😄

willow pasture Mar 30, 2017, 8:11 AM

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00:05:07.318
Légs gains Recursive Strikes (7) from Légs

00:05:08.166
Légs gains Recursive Strikes (8) from Légs

00:05:08.166
Légs gains Recursive Strikes (9) from Légs

00:05:08.985
Légs gains Recursive Strikes (10) from Légs

00:05:09.841
Légs gains Recursive Strikes (11) from Légs

00:05:10.665
Légs gains Recursive Strikes (12) from Légs

00:05:11.511
Légs gains Recursive Strikes (13) from Légs

00:05:13.893
Légs gains Recursive Strikes (14) from Légs

00:05:15.339
Légs gains Recursive Strikes (15) from Légs

00:05:23.173
Légs's Recursive Strikes fades from Légs

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it seems to be the case

pseudo grove Mar 30, 2017, 8:15 AM

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yes

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good find, gonna save me some time 😄

pseudo grove Mar 30, 2017, 11:36 AM

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T19M_NH w/ CoF instead of DoS.
Also w/ and w/o Boots and Ago VS Alacrity. (Well, Ago vs DP ^^).

📎 unknown.png

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📎 unknown.png

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Kingsbane    29.58sec

T19M_NH Ago Post-Hotfix (Only CoF instead of DoS):
Kingsbane    33.81sec```

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< 1% nerf in ST, probably way higher for AoE due to FoK, hence my previous message.

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If someone wants to see in AoE, just take the nightly from today, and the nightly that will be up tomorrow or so 😃

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Oh, forgot to rename actors on 2nd img, but it was Post-Hotfix 😛

little pelican Mar 30, 2017, 12:25 PM

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so kingsbane will have a 33.8s cooldown on avg?

pseudo grove Mar 30, 2017, 12:26 PM

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yes

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in pure ST

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also, there is a bug under investigation (this sentence sounds Blizzard 😄 )

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pretty sure I narrowed how it works thanks to the help of navv

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I'll do an implementation of it in SimC

little pelican Mar 30, 2017, 12:42 PM

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can you explain this bug a bit :3 ?

pseudo grove Mar 30, 2017, 1:05 PM

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It's a bug that let you stack to the infinite KB Damage 😃 😃 😃

pseudo grove Mar 30, 2017, 1:30 PM

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If the effective CD of KB is < 34s (a bit less, see below) and you cast KB on CD, you can infinite stack the dmg increase.
This is due to this spell : http://www.wowhead.com/spell=192853/kingsbane
Current guess is that the duration is refreshed on each apply, so if your latest poison application is right before the expiration, you still get for 20s (20s-time_since_last_poison_application_before_kb_end in fact) the buff. So if you recast KB in the next 20s, it continues to stack up to at least 99stacks.

brazen jay Mar 30, 2017, 1:32 PM

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🤦

pseudo grove Mar 30, 2017, 1:37 PM

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Gonna be implemented in SimC really soon

brazen jay Mar 30, 2017, 1:37 PM

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Do a comparison with a 15 minute boss, like guldan

pseudo grove Mar 30, 2017, 1:39 PM

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at some point, they might put a 1.5s icd with 1s cdr

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but who knows, we aren't in Blizzard balance team 😄

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or they just change the refresh behavior of the buff, problem solved

brazen jay Mar 30, 2017, 1:39 PM

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Imo the icd ruins the trait. It was different gameplay to feed adds into your ST damage

pseudo grove Mar 30, 2017, 1:40 PM

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I agree but balance team =/= design team

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they just do something quick to balance a spec, not cool things

brazen jay Mar 30, 2017, 1:40 PM

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pls hire us

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#makeroguesgreatagain

pseudo grove Mar 30, 2017, 1:57 PM

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Without KB Bug

📎 unknown.png

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With KB Bug

📎 unknown.png

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#alacrity bois

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and APL is not even optimized in regards to that

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and it's with 0.5s ICD of course

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and now with a proper APL

📎 unknown.png

pseudo grove Mar 30, 2017, 2:39 PM

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And in case you're wondering, haste is still bad for us, even with this bug.

pseudo grove Mar 30, 2017, 10:28 PM

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New Assa APL is out.
It handles correctly Mantle, DoS and whatever you want to sim. It's packaged with SimC as default APL.

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PS: There might be some little tweak to do still, I'm keeping an eye on it 😉

fair crystal Mar 30, 2017, 10:34 PM

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is there a plan for a 7.2 release in the near future?

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nm, grabbed a nightly

pseudo grove Mar 31, 2017, 7:26 AM

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In regards to this: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20753815486?page=2#post-21
I'll be much more active on the next PTR Cycle than I was on this one (there were almost no Rogue changes), I hope this time Blizzard will listen and fix all ours problems.
There are few issues not listed, let's talk about EP duration not scaling with CP (so, if it scales the 15% can be back). Hemorrhage beick lackluster (even if they buff Exsanguinate, will also depends on Garrote buffs). Venom rush being the only lvl 100 talent. Elusiveness that doesn't reduces Feint cost (making the talent not really used, at least in PvE, in PvP it might be too strong). Cheat Death not resetting on Encounter End (so if you vanish and encounter reset, you still get the debuff unlike Time Warp).

Flickering Shadows for Subtlety, Gloomblade, Enveloping Shadows, Premeditation, ...

Well, there are a lot of things to be adressed in addition to what they said, we just have to let them know when PTR will be there 😃 (I'll make 3 threads, one for each spec)

It also means that SimC will be 100% updated in regards to what will be on the PTR to help all of you (and me 😄 ) choose your spec for 7.2.5 (and thus Tomb of Sargeras) since we have to take in account the AP Grind factor.

dense swift Mar 31, 2017, 8:11 AM

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Their paragraph on Shadow dance is spot on

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Oh also their Sub AoE paragraph is perfect!

frozen brook Mar 31, 2017, 8:15 AM

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i wonder do we still to be in shd to deal 200% increase shuriken dmg? since we have limited dance

dense swift Mar 31, 2017, 8:15 AM

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Okey, honestly their whole Sub part fits really well with my wants of the spec

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Likely only to prevent capping of dances. But that's way too soon to speculate

fathom bramble Mar 31, 2017, 11:10 AM

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I'm fine with sub as is but those change I would welcome

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I like how they have finally acknowledged multi Nightbladeing isn't good aoe

pseudo grove Mar 31, 2017, 11:11 AM

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While during alpha & beta it was "Nightblade is Sub AoE"

fathom bramble Mar 31, 2017, 12:41 PM

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Yeah which is fine but on short lived adds sucks

little pelican Mar 31, 2017, 12:42 PM

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all im saying is that if sub gains significant dmg on ST, its either gonna be really broken when it has adds or really bad if it doesnt have adds to cleave from.

pseudo grove Mar 31, 2017, 12:43 PM

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Imo, they should give Sub Crimson Tempest

fathom bramble Mar 31, 2017, 12:43 PM

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Well we shall report problems sooner

pseudo grove Mar 31, 2017, 12:43 PM

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Calls it Shadow Tempest or whatever

fathom bramble Mar 31, 2017, 12:43 PM

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Crimson tempest wasn't amazing

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Have like if our storm hits X targets the next evis cleaves all targets

pseudo grove Mar 31, 2017, 12:44 PM

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yes why not, your next eviscerate throw blade that transpierces enemies

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in all direction

fathom bramble Mar 31, 2017, 12:45 PM

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I already basically designed exsanguinate for them during alpha

pseudo grove Mar 31, 2017, 12:45 PM

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The previous one ?

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I liked it a lot

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the current one, not that much

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I liked the auto spread

fathom bramble Mar 31, 2017, 12:45 PM

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I tweeted a spell called exasanguinate

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That basically half did what it does now

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It basically drained all bleeds and did aoe dmg

pseudo grove Mar 31, 2017, 12:46 PM

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Last time you twitted them, they asked what was KB

fathom bramble Mar 31, 2017, 12:46 PM

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I got another reply last night instantly :p

pseudo grove Mar 31, 2017, 12:46 PM

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Maybe we could invite Blizz in this channel ? 😃 😃

fathom bramble Mar 31, 2017, 12:47 PM

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Sure I'll tweet Celestalon an invite when I'm at my laptop

fathom bramble Mar 31, 2017, 6:47 PM

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https://twitter.com/RiphieFun/status/847882966441365505

Twitter

@RiphieFun

Riphie

@Celestalon I’m extending a formal invitation to the rogue discord tc channel https://t.co/ZKPI1g58b2 as people think you reply to me a lot.

brazen jay Mar 31, 2017, 6:50 PM

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👍

pseudo grove Mar 31, 2017, 7:10 PM

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Tell me when he's here, I will give him access to reply :)

brazen jay Mar 31, 2017, 7:11 PM

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Hes already

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Answered on #228878985210101760

pseudo grove Mar 31, 2017, 7:11 PM

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Sesly ?

brazen jay Mar 31, 2017, 7:11 PM

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:p

pseudo grove Mar 31, 2017, 7:11 PM

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Gosh guys, mention me

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When someone do that

late relic Mar 31, 2017, 7:13 PM

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/lurk

pseudo grove Mar 31, 2017, 7:13 PM

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Hello 😃

fathom bramble Mar 31, 2017, 7:13 PM

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👋

pseudo grove Mar 31, 2017, 7:13 PM

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Hope you like my bug findings !

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Got a bunch ready to be dropped on PTR Forums when 7.2.5 will be pushed 😃

late relic Mar 31, 2017, 7:14 PM

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💫

pseudo grove Mar 31, 2017, 7:14 PM

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I guess it means Kingsbane bug is already fixed 😦

late relic Mar 31, 2017, 7:15 PM

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Perhaps, but right now, I'm interested in something more important...

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Ramen.

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returns to lurking

tough sleet Mar 31, 2017, 7:17 PM

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@pseudo grove The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long, and that bug burned very very brightly.

pseudo grove Mar 31, 2017, 7:25 PM

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If someone got Assassination 7.2 Golden (Sinister Circulation), I'm really interested to checks some things. Let me know if you have it 😃

civic umbra Mar 31, 2017, 7:45 PM

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Celestalon can you fix outlaw pls thanks xd

pseudo grove Mar 31, 2017, 8:48 PM

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So, someone finally got the Golden trait. We'll have the answer really soon 😃 😃

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Improvements I've made to the APL Today (compared to Yesterday)
This is T19M_NH Nightstalker with Strangler 4/4.

📎 unknown.png

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And this is Subterfuge.
New APL will be default in next nightly.

📎 unknown.png

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You can get it from Github if you want to: https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/blob/legion-dev/profiles/Tier19M_NH/Rogue_Assassination_T19M_NH.simc

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And Kingsbane stacking bug has been fixed.

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So the "perhaps" of Celestalon is in fact "yes" 😛

fair crystal Mar 31, 2017, 9:22 PM

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now if i could just get mantle 😛

brazen jay Mar 31, 2017, 9:28 PM

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The new apl looks 👌

fathom bramble Mar 31, 2017, 9:40 PM

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@fair crystal go casual, it'll drop

brazen jay Mar 31, 2017, 9:40 PM

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Also @pseudo grove we might have gotten somewhere with the wound poison

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It would seem it is not about attack power but actually weapon damage 🤔

pseudo grove Mar 31, 2017, 9:41 PM

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cool 😃