rare swift
Edge of Night Bugfix
- As of the Season 4 patch, Banshee's Blight damage can now trigger from Between the Eyes
- This affects direct casts only, not 4pc procs
Impact: 📈 +~0.5% for Single Target with Season 3 gear, +~1% for Single Target with Season 4 gear (max item level daggers)
❗Update 08/04/2022 -- It is now confirmed this does not affect 4pc procs.
Deeper Daggers (Conduit) Whitelist Change
- As of the Season 4 patch, Deeper Daggers only affects Rogue abilities and does not affect gear-based Shadow damage sources such as Edge of Night or trinkets
- Currently this patch is bugged and the whitelist is missing many Rogue abilities. As such, Deeper Daggers is not worth using until fixed.
Impact: 📉 -~2% for Single Target with Season 4 gear when working correctly
Bug Impact 📉 Much larger impact of -~3.5% in its bugged state. Effective change of -~1% if swapping for Planned Execution.
❗Update 08/05/2022 -- The bug issue has been confirmed as fixed on live servers
rare swift
Update APL for Special Season 4 Items
- Add APL support for Wraps of Electrostatic Potential (Mechagon) bracers
- Add APL support for Ring of Collapsing Futures (Karazhan) ring
Impact: 📈 +~1% for Single Target for the bracers change, minimal for the ring as the damage spell is currently bugged in-game and does not scale correctly. In the future, it will be around +0.8% for Single Target if it is hotfixed to scale with item level correctly. Due to lack of secondary stats, bracers are currently about the same overall performance as a similar item level piece.
rare swift
Deeper Daggers Hotfix Implementation
- Following up the manual hotfixing this week, Deeper Daggers is now verified as once again working on Rank 2 Eviscerate, Rank 2 Black Powder, and Shadow Blades damage as intended
- Sims required being manually updated due to these being handled in background scripts. This fixed and will be in the next nightly build.
- Deeper Daggers still does not affect Banshee's Blight, as apparently intended by the patch notes
Impact: 📈 +3.5% to S4 sims due to resolution of the bugged whitelist on Tuesday
rare swift
Eye of Command Trinket Fix
- Due to a change in trinket scaling behavior between Legion and Shadowlands, there was an issue found with the Eye of Command in SimC causing it to lose ~1-2 crit rating per stack compared to current in-game behavior
- Fix should be in the next nightly build. This should not affect any other DPS trinkets.
Impact: 📈 +0.3-0.4% depending on trinket item level (~70 DPS with BiS profiles.) This is relatively minor but could impact close trinket evaluations.
rare swift
Jeweled Signet of Melandrus Findings
- After being pointed out by Lament last night, extensive testing and investigation has been done surrounding updated behavior about the CoS ring's AA damage bonus
- Testing has revealed it now behaves additionally as bonus weapon DPS for purposes of attack power calculations that use the player's weapon
- Additionally, this bonus is de-normalized based on weapon speed, meaning Daggers gain a bit more from this change than other 1H weapons
- For Outlaw Rogues this is equivalent to ~180 attack power and for Assassination and Subtlety ~250 attack power.
Impact: 📈 +3% in ST over Mechagon ring sets for Outlaw, +4% in ST over Mechagon ring sets for Subtlety and Assassination.
Special thanks to @cobalt iris for initially pointing out this observation which lead to the testing.
rare swift
Jeweled Signet of Melandrus Update
- As per the latest hotfix notes, the bonus damage from Jeweled Signet was reduced by 74% to adjust for the unintended behavior
- Functionality of the ring buffing all AP abilities still remains
- For BiS profiles, this is still showing Signet as being marginally ahead of Mechagon set profiles, Raidbots should be updated for simming shortly
Impact: 📉 📈 This change mitigates most of the value from the updates posted yesterday. However, it still is roughly +1-1.5% better (depending on spec) than prior to the findings.
rare swift
Scars and Chains AoE Trinket Improvements
- Integrated Scars AoE optimizations for upcoming and overlapping raid event waves for DungeonSlice and DungeonRoute fight styles
- Improved handling of Scars for HecticAddCleave or other Patchwerk+raid event fight styles
- Applied similar forward-looking logic to Chains as a minor optimization (as Chains is worth using in single target and has less ramp time) as well as fixed cooldown conflicts between Scars and Chains
Impact: 📈 +0.4-4% for non-Patchwerk sims depending on fight style, dungeon route, and combination of single or both trinkets at the same time. DungeonSlice with both trinkets should be around +2%. Individually, can expect a higher increase for Scars than Chains, around 1.6% for Scars in DungeonSlice and 0.4% for Chains.
Specials thanks to @feral totem for a substantial amount of time spent with trial-and-error testing and work on the Scars DS/DR optimizations!
rare swift
Prepatch and 10.0 Sim Support
All 3 Rogue APLs have all had a first update pass and sims should theoretically support all the overlap of Shadowlands and new mechanics.
However, please do keep in mind that bugs are likely present both in sims and in-game due to the complexity of these overlaps and limited testing window.
We still expect these sims to be accurate enough for general-purpose Raidbots usage or local simming!
Please report any notable bugs (either game bugs not reflected in sims, or sim bugs) in #tc-research and we will do our best to fix them as quickly as possible.
Prepatch rotations likely will not be fully optimized to the same level as a normal APL, nor will we be making many small improvements over the next few weeks. It is likely only large/impactful fixes will be made to the prepatch APLs in order to allow us to focus our effort on the level 70 Dragonflight rotations. Our priority will be for Dragonflight launch itself to be as accurate and optimized as possible, which means less time will be spent on the prepatch than normal.
Thanks and enjoy all the new talent trees!
rare swift
Post-Holiday 10.0 Roundup
Happy new year all! Just wanted to drop a bit of an update here now that things have settled after the holidays and hotfixes.
At this point, we can safely consider all the specs stable and Dragonflight talent APLs/bugfixing has reached a point we can consider pretty robust at this point. There are still a few odds and ends to find, but largely the flurry of "behind the scenes" activity is mostly complete at this point. However, there are a few things to note for all specs that were worth a status update.
Assassination Updates
Assassination was the first spec to be stable coming out of beta so not too many major changes recently. There are ongoing experiments for Exsanguinate and Deathmark syncing that look promising, Ceverion has also come up with an updated T29 profile which will also be merged in as the default soon. SimC has support for the major PTR changes for Assassination, which still need to be fully explored to get any firm results on. Expect updates as the PTR cycle continues.
Outlaw Updates
Most notable updates have been recent experiments into updated reroll conditions, especially for Hidden Opportunity builds. Initial versions have been integrated into the APL and Solo has kindly updated the FAQs. There is still work going forward on this, so can keep tuned for updates as that continues iteration. SimC now also has full support for the initial PTR changes to Fan the Hammer and results from this will become available soon.
Subtlety Updates
APL iterations continue to find gains which have been phased in over the holidays. Still some investigations to come. While there are no major mechanical changes on PTR for Sub, keep an eye out for ongoing APL improvements!
Thank you to all of the many people who have contributed to these changes over the release and holidays! 
rare swift
Subtlety APL Updates
Impact: 📈 +1.5 to +2.5% depending on talent configuration and fight style
lament grotto
@manic pulsar @pseudo grove How is simming for the EN trinkets coming? I picked up Spontaneous Appendages last night if there is still any testing needed to be done.
gusty marten
How do we access your sheet?
rain lance
It is linked in #rules-and-guides
onyx sun
Hi folks, is there a way to determine how much a CP is worth in dps , so i can actually understand when to RT at 5 or 6, i know it depends on a lot of factors but im dumb and if there is a even a slight approach that can make me understand the thing better im taking
rain lance
To a rough approximation you could look at the average RT damage and divide that average RT cps. That isn't perfect but probably a reasonable ballpark.
onyx sun
thanks you thats what i was the kind of approach i was looking for, abvious for you but not that much 4 me 😄
fringe kettle
i think a good rule is just to never waste them
onyx sun
yes i got that its just that sometimes when i try to manage myself with too much shitty rolls in a row idk if waiting for exp 2 second for that 6th CP is worth it or i should just RT at 5
and i dont have the brain to figure it out myslef so i try to find help here :
vagrant seal
Anyone know how to force SimC to roll 6 buffs in the opener?
Or make RtB always roll 6 on the first roll, I should say. Not reroll until 6
manic pulsar
fixed_rtb=123456 forces always 6 buffs
If you want for the first roll only, I don't know how to do that =X
crisp basin
I dont think thats even doable
dont think simc checks any variable before "casting" rtb
manic pulsar
I was thinking about overriding prepull buffs maybe
manic pulsar
But I have no clue if that would work as intended =X
crisp basin
btw is fixed_rtb documented somewhere
the other day I spend like half an hour scouring the rogue class module trying to figure out variables that would make you do exactly what that does :d
vagrant seal
I'm trying to determine whether it's worth saving DB when you roll 6 in the opener
manic pulsar
fixed_rtb forces roll the bones to give a specific combination of buffs
1 = Broadsides, 2 = Buried Treasure, 3 = Grand Melee, 4 = Jolly Roger, 5 = Shark infested Waters, 6 = True Bearing
(alphabetical order that is)
crisp basin
in theory you could try doing fixed_rtb=123456 and limit the fight with fixed_lenght=1 to before rtb runs out
since you are only investigating the opener
you are going to need a lot of iterations though
vagrant seal
That wouldn't really give me the big picture though, right? I mean delaying DB would change the CD timings and overall DPS, right?
crisp basin
correct,though you could see the difference between doing so and not doing so to have at least something to start off with
manic pulsar
Why would you delay CotD?
vagrant seal
My thinking is that if you roll 6 during AR, you're rolling in CP as it is, so the benefit to DB isn't that great
manic pulsar
CP=?
vagrant seal
Combo Points
manic pulsar
Hum
I see, so you would like to try and delay CotD after AR if you have 6 buffs right?
vagrant seal
Right
manic pulsar
I can compare that if you want
vagrant seal
Would it isolate the 6buff opener though?
manic pulsar
I will try to add the logic: do not use CotD if you have 6 buffs and Adreanline Rush up
vagrant seal
This is what I have currently and it doesn't seem to make much of a difference:
actions.cds+=/curse_of_the_dreadblades,if=combo_points.deficit>=4&(!talent.ghostly_strike.enabled|debuff.ghostly_strike.up)&!(rtb_buffs<6&!buff.adrenaline_rush.up)
I'm assuming that it's because of how unlikely it is
modest jolt
Hello everyone, should AR be used on cooldown?
manic pulsar
Yes
&!(rtb_buffs<6&!buff.adrenaline_rush.up) = &(rtb_buffs=6|buff.adrenaline_rush.up)
That's a weird condition =X
&!(rtb_buffs=6&buff.adrenaline_rush.up)
That's what I would use
vagrant seal
Yeah, that's better 😃
manic pulsar
I've got one running on my side
vagrant seal
Can you do something like fixed_rtb=12345,if=fight_time<15?
vagrant seal
You can't change a global mid fight, then?
manic pulsar
No, you cannot ^^
vagrant seal
Or is if= unique to actions?
vagrant seal
My dps decreased by 201 over 25, 000 iterations. I doubt that's statistically relevant, eh?
manic pulsar
Tell me your DPS error
vagrant seal
Well I guess with deterministic=1 all the non-6 rolls should be the same, right?
262.9 / 0.099%
vagrant seal
Same seed each sim
manic pulsar
You have like 75% chance that the difference is in the right order
Yeah, but that doesn't work to compare different APLs
It is only useful to make sure simulation results are repeatable
vagrant seal
Right, but a seed that never rolls 6 will have the exact same dps in both APLs, no?
vagrant seal
What do you mean?
I just tried it again with the same APL and got the same everything
Ah, I see what you mean
Yep same with 1 iteration 😃
vagrant seal
So I guess it's probs a dps loss 😦
manic pulsar
Yeah 😦
vagrant seal
Lots of experimentation to be done with Outlaw
manic pulsar
Maybe with just buried treasure and broadsides
Worst combination ever with AR and CotD ^^
Or maybe BS and GM
vagrant seal
Ah, then it might be delay CotD or reroll
manic pulsar
I think Aethys did test that though, and it's still a DPS loss
Not 100% sure though
vagrant seal
I'll probably mess around with this some more later. Thanks for your help, Skasch! 😄
midnight forum
is there a mastery cap for assassination?
or a point when you hit diminishing returns on it?
pallid halo
skasch you were saying that ag/mp started to take over after like 860? Do you have data for that?
manic pulsar
pallid halo
I see. did you guys have to change the apl to show that. I'm pretty sure I ran a huge batch of talent combos a while back that didn't show anything unusual
or a bug fix or something
pallid halo
ok, yeah, this is what I had beore
heroic
swap to full mastery, did mastery swap priority?
those runs mastery got to about .8 of top stat
but no change in priority
manic pulsar
You have to put more mastery
But it is not like the one and only stat
The gear change a bit but not radically
Also Vendetta relic becomes realllly strong
pallid halo
is the new apl in the current build of simc?
manic pulsar
Yeah
pallid halo
k
manic pulsar
There should even be two profiles
pallid halo
thx, i'll dig into later
manic pulsar
For the two gearsets
pallid halo
this is making me regret going outlaw ;/
manic pulsar
Why?
pallid halo
i love asn, but i hate exang/hemo build
manic pulsar
It is not like you cannot catch up quickly
pallid halo
i just got my second gold with outlaw
pallid halo
hm, well, maybe i'll try to grind it up
getting destroyed by our dks and dhs, feels bad ;/
manic pulsar
In AoE? 😃
pallid halo
no, we did the puking dragon wed
manic pulsar
Oh
pallid halo
was notihng but red and purple on the charts
manic pulsar
Yeah I think Asn has a great potential on this fight
pallid halo
and this one odd feral we have with full crafted
we got him down, i just don't feel like i can't spend my resource wisely with outlaw
always wasting stuff
manic pulsar
Yeah
pallid halo
you have to queue the ability before you know what you want to do
manic pulsar
I have a lot of AP in bank because I don't know where to spend it
flat rain
if GS falls off during AR + DB would u re-apply it?
plush relic
^ That's a good question, it happens a decent amount of time for me, and wasting 2 global CD feels painful during the SS RT spam
flat rain
it does feel painful. but the more i think about it seems like GS would be a lot more dmg
pallid halo
gs?
rain lance
Ghostly Strike
crisp basin
you have one free gcd during dreadblades
provided you started with SS and end with SS
elfin jackal
If we use adrenaline rush off cooldown. Do we still save dreadblades for AR and not use that off cooldown when the two are not up?
rain lance
Current APLs use both on CD I think skasch has played around with CD syncing but I'm not sure, if he hasn't that would be very worth exploring
flat rain
sometimes i wait like 10s if DB is about to come up and AR is up already
im assuming the sim profile just reapplies GS whenever it drops ?
stiff goblet
When i run Simc, if it just shows a higher dps number with a different piece, it just simply is better right?
Even if its mastery :^)
(outlaw)
rain lance
Generally yes, if the difference is small check the variance values reported by the sim
stiff goblet
If its upward to 2k-3k dps
I'm mostly just thinking that i gain roughly that amount switching to the 3k mastery proc set from court/arcway, replacing 2 850 crit/vers pieces
flat rain
actions.build=ghostly_strike,if=combo_points.deficit>=1+buff.broadsides.up&!buff.curse_of_the_dreadblades.up&
so they aren't using GS if curse is applied
rain lance
Also for future reference that question should go in #off-topic or #228878985210101760
stiff goblet
Alright, sorry!
manic pulsar
The APL reapply it if CotD is about to be ready
So ideally you want to refresh GS before popping CotD
flat rain
(debuff.ghostly_strike.remains<debuff.ghostly_strike.duration*0.3|(cooldown.curse_of_the_dreadblades.remains<3&debuff.ghostly_strike.remains<14))&(combo_points>=3|(variable.rtb_reroll&time>=10))
this part?
manic pulsar
cooldown.curse_of_the_dreadblades.remains<3
flat rain
ah okay so just reapply GS before curse is up
faint torrent
Yo, anyone good at quick "brain" theorycrafting comparing 2 necks?
Sorry to bother with that but im slow at simming
glacial whale
if you already have stat weights from simc you can use pawn or just napkin math it
faint torrent
I actually think my 845 neck > my 860 neck
glacial whale
not super likely unless you have an insane scalefactor for haste
faint torrent
1.1111 versa & 657 mastery vs 599 critt & 1307 mastery
necks are so shit without agi to compare now
im betting on the 1111 versa one
just gonna simm it
thats odd, haste is my #1
6.82 haste 5.10 versa
Did something change, i was under the impression we even gem & enchant versa
glacial whale
it changes based on your gear
faint torrent
so we have a breakpoint of haste we want or what
glacial whale
haste increases with value with certain weapon traits and shit like that
a lot of people throw around ~10% but I'm at 10% and my weights are still
Agility=11.22, CritRating=7.02, HasteRating=8.14, MasteryRating=6.07, Versatility=6.83
faint torrent
im at 7.97% haste
How did the satyr vs claw neck enchant end up after satyr hotfixes
strong surge
Kinda curious if haste breakpoint related to CotD and amount of finishers you can cast during its use.
plush relic
haste does not reduce the gcd
if you're referring to energy regen
possibly
but since it's often combined with AR
haste above 11% is kind of redundant
strong surge
yeah, was talking about CotD without AR
strong surge
I have pretty low amount of haste and I think I'm getting of 2 times less finishers without AR
plush relic
with alacrity?
strong surge
yeah
plush relic
hm
strong surge
with pooling and shit
brazen jay
Why is it when you import your char from SimC addon it doesnt give you any apl or anything. You have to do something else or?
plush relic
usually it generates a default apl based on the profile
brazen jay
Then I must be doing something wrong as Im getting a blank apl and it doesnt even show my gear etc in the results html
manic pulsar
When using the simc addon, it generates your profile; if you run simc with just your profile, it will automatically generate the relevant APL based on your class/spec
brazen jay
Ye looks to be fine. Just got spooked as it didnt even show any apl in the results window at first.
Opening the results again they showed up
chrome sun
😃
static totem
sub buffs
lament grotto
will need to recalc the relic ilvl spreadsheet, looks like they don't like 60+ ilvls on the fate family 😦
icy mango
Sin seems like it will be as good if not better than ol on st
a 6-12% damage nerf (depending on relics) on outlaw is pretty big
on run through***
ruby oxide
sub might still be extremely technically demanding so flat damage boosts aren't liable to help a ton for the average player
craggy stone
sub really isn't that technically demanding
rain lance
Hey just a reminder this channel is for primarily math focused discussion
icy mango
I just went to some of my logs and attempted to calculate the damage nerfs to run through and how it'd affect overall dps. It seems to be around a 3% damage nerf to overall dps. Can anyone confirm?
rain lance
It will depend someone on how heavily you stacked into the traits that were nerfed, I'm going to lose 10% off RT plus the energy nerf
acoustic lake
Trying to sim this change but not sure how to actually override artifact traits in simc, anyone know how?
icy mango
Having no fate's thirst relics, the run through nerfs appear to be around 1% dps nerf.
celest hill
!discord shaman
tough goblet
?
@icy mango Hows that possible?
@icy mango I have 3x run through relics which is a 10% reduction in run through
that cannot be just 1%
no way
I feel like Energy Nerf + run through relic = at least 5-6% seen as so run through is our primary source of damage by far
tough goblet
Any idea + energy?
icy mango
I don't know about any of the other nerfs those are the only ones I did any maths for
tough goblet
The only other nerf is the Energy nerf
tough goblet
Lol
You sure about the 3.5%?
Was it just a basic reduction in overall RT damage .. meaning -10% to RT dmg then calculate?
Even taking this into account. Both Run through and Fatebringer both got nerfed 25% each.
I'm assuming even with this nerf. those will still be the best relics to take
Seen as so main Gouge does nothing now.
acoustic lake
Initial sims showing sub t19H simc default profile increasing from 349.5k to 375.5k with the 15% buffs to eviscerate and nightblade
This profile has 867 ilvl gear and a 26 pt artifact
icy mango
Go do the math for yourself
manic bay
no one has 26 traits atm. <.<
acoustic lake
well I can sim the t19p if you like
trying to work out how to sim the trait nerfs but it doesn't want to play nice
icy mango
@tough goblet the % damage reduction depends on how many relics you had
which changes your dps depending on how many of those relics you invested into the wep
tough goblet
Nono I understand
@icy mango My question was more , what was the nerf in an ideal geared rogue
@icy mango Which I assume was 3x relics in Fates Thirst RT.
@icy mango I mean obviously the nerfs mean very little to epople with 3x relics in Ghostly shell... but then they are doing so much less dps anyways you know what I mean
icy mango
the nerfs for 2 relics is about 3%
so it'll probably be around a 3-4% nerf with 3
Yeah I know wachu mean
tough goblet
The nerfs aren't huge tbh. They didn't reck us. I still think outlaw will be the best dps spec overall
manic bay
basically, the nerfs won't even be noticeable on an average day
tough goblet
Whoever psoted the Overall Emerad Nightmare dps meters today, Outlaw was pulling so far ahead it was staggering
icy mango
^
tough goblet
Outlaw and Assassination
The biggest nerf is Control is king Reduced to 3 SECONDS!!!
This is the big one!!!!!!!
:<<<<<<<<
manic bay
People pvp??? (sorry, I had to)
tough goblet
:<
balmy fossil
has anyone simmed the sub buffs yet?
acoustic lake
yes if you scroll up just a tad
please save such questions for general/simple questions
thorny mist
Is the new version of SimC 703-03 up to date with the changes today?
acoustic lake
Not yet as far as I can see, give it some time
shrewd temple
people should be at ~22 outlaw traits, if people are switching to leveling sub it'll take a while until they get to 26 traits
thorny mist
im at 25 traits in outlaw
shrewd temple
I was giving an estimated average, I would say it can't be higher than 23
barren locust
Anyone know if these changes are live on ptr?
rain lance
I don't believe so
barren locust
Weird....
You would think if they planned to push this out to live on next reset it would be there.
molten turret
PTR doesn't seem to be up now anyway
nvm, there it goes
still showing 24% on fate's thirst 3/3
DHs are the ones going to want to be able to test their changes on PTR since it may change up their rotation
modern stream
apologies
tough goblet
@manic pulsar @rain lance So how big are our nerfs assuming 3x relics into those traits?
manic pulsar
Our, you mean Outlaw?
thin zephyr
I wish they buffed agonizing poison 😦
I guess assa's back to hemo-exsang from elaborate planning&agonizing poison
slow trench
@manic pulsar Are your sims from today with or without the hotfixes?
elfin remnant
anyone have new relic weight?
hard drum
give them some time
bitter basin
do the heroic and mythic sims use tier/nighthold stuff?
hybrid leaf
cool thx @pseudo grove
pseudo grove
no @bitter basin
hybrid leaf
ah that's good to know, just wanted to ask, too 😃
gentle garnet
interesting, thanks aethys
plush relic
Lucky for me I progressed all 3 weapons 🐧
strong surge
Outlaw at 322k T19p, isnt it more than before?
distant gate
That seems to be more dps than before, and sin seems to be around the same with buffs
hexed oak
thats single-target right?
obsidian flower
so oulaw gets nerf and the numbers go up ? lol
plush relic
Well Death from above was buffed but I'm not sure if that makes a difference
fading peak
What about New relics weight ?
untold raptor
yep dmg u saw on previous sims is with old pots
pseudo grove
the up is because of old war potion
untold raptor
@pseudo grove do u by any chance have new pawn strings?
pseudo grove
I don't use this, sorry
nova elk
I've got some questions and was hoping you could help me. What buffs should I go for when I'm using Adrenaline Rush and Dread Blades Active? And should I use Adrenaline Rush in BL phase or just Dreadblades?
untold raptor
np gonna do them manualy when new stats weights are in
small mountain
Rule, there is a section called #228879234540503040
zinc river
the mythic sin is it done with agonizing or alacrity?
pseudo grove
ago
zinc river
thanks
nova elk
Well, it's not like I'm asking which stat is best for outlaw or something like that.
severe cradle
We have the channels for a reason
nova elk
I'm just saying I thought it more fitting to ask it here, but I'll go and ask there, no prob
distant gate
When simming, has there been any testing with finality rotations in which you low cp and evis and NB in order to proc finality and then 5 or 6 cp the finisher?
noble frost
has anyone seen sims comparing new changes for all/most of the specs to see how we stack up?
sorry if this is the wrong channel
plush relic
scroll up
severe cradle
Rough sims have been made, scroll up
noble frost
not all the rogue specs all the classes and how we stack up against them overall
severe cradle
We don't particualry care about other classes in a rogue-theorycrafing channel
pseudo grove
yes @distant gate , APL is updated in regard to this
severe cradle
Atleast i dont
noble frost
yeah thats fair enough
pseudo grove
I do take care of rogue specs only
distant gate
Thanks @pseudo grove , that would make for a little more exciting game play
tardy kindle
@pseudo grove Have you tried to see if it is the same ranking with Mythic gear but without legendary?
severe cradle
And we love you for it Aethys
pseudo grove
yes @tardy kindle , sub outscale basically
due to wpds scaling & crazy mastery
while others scale mostly on attack power (agi)
tardy kindle
Same results anyway then 😃
pseudo grove
@distant gate , you just refresh late a f:nb and at pandemic for a normal nb
roughly yes @tardy kindle
obsidian flower
is this the highest possible sin build ? i wonder about lvl 15 / 90 & 100 talent with the buffs, master poisoner, dfa etc
distant gate
Oh ok. i thought it might be something like 1/2 CP Evis or NB in to a longer duration
*in to a bigger cp finisher
obsidian flower
is the exang build in ur sim with hemo or EP ?
tardy kindle
Thanks Aethys
severe cradle
I don't think it's worth casting a 1 or 2cp finisher ever, because finality strength grows the more cp you use, or do i misremember?
pseudo grove
no @distant gate , you get the % modifier based on the previous finisher cp spent
distant gate
@pseudo grove Ahh right you, forgot about that. thanks
pseudo grove
it's default, so EP @obsidian flower
distant gate
*are
pseudo grove
yes that's right @severe cradle , it was changed right before legion
severe cradle
😄
prisma tartan
@pseudo grove Aethys, what was the sub talent choices you used to sim?
pseudo grove
again, default
prisma tartan
ok, thank you
severe cradle
BTW, now with the changes, i've been thinking about how to spend my AP. I figured with Sub receiving a buff I'd get my Ol to 18 trait points and then pump sub. I base my thinking mostly around how crap OL weapons get after 18 points, and the fact that sub scales so amazingly.
I'm still scared to comit tho xD
gentle garnet
I still don't believe it will be worth going sub during this progression tier (if we assume 2 week mythic progress atleast). I can't get to all the good traits sub offer until nightmare progression is over
severe cradle
That is true, but Outlaw just doesnt get much better after 18 pts
gentle garnet
that is true
tough goblet
@pseudo grove Hey, what does the little lines outside of the yellow mean? Is that Variation in dps?
static zenith
how come your early results show almost no loss of dps for outlaw or am i reading something wrong?
acoustic lake
Old sims were deadly grace, these new sims are using old war
tough goblet
Hey guys. What does the little lines mean
when reading the graphs
Outlaw showing 481k in mythic but has this little line pushing more than sub
acoustic lake
And yes sonnics, those are essentially just variation. Longer bars more variation
oak knoll
thats 6buffs 😄
crisp basin
the thin lines are min and max dps
usually you want to look at the quartiles
but outlaw distribution is kind of all over the place
zenith berry
2 quick questions: 1. how does the change affect statweight for mastery for sin rogues and 2. with the DP buff, agonizing is now even more useless right?
small mountain
agonizing was simming higher how is it useless
shrewd temple
people just don't understand lol
little pelican
what kind of stat spread do u want as asassination?
little pelican
and sub for that matter
mossy creek
Assa (Bleed) : Crit > Vers > Mastery > Haste
Assa (Poison) : Crit > Mastery > Vers > Haste
I dunno about Sub. 😛
pliant garnet
what are the soft caps for assasin?
mossy creek
Oh, then I have completely misunderstood what a stat spread is, Sorry !
Soft caps for Assa are 10% Vers and about 40% crit afaik
crisp basin
also I dont think we yet know much about how the upcoming changes will mess with stats since they are currently in the process of being implemented into simc
crisp basin
there is a quick guide in #rules-and-guides
pliant garnet
❤ Thank you @crisp basin
cyan kelp
@pseudo grove u wont update your sim index?
acoustic lake
Updates will be done when simc is updated, please give people some time
No doubt things will be done before mythic releases
karmic cobalt
what's up with the latest trinket sims not having fan on them near top?
just ilvl driven?
pseudo grove
I'm currently updating rogue simc module
implement second shuriken atm
did the dfa change
and will have a look at the bag of tricks things after
also I'll look at weaponmaster & shuriken storm
acoustic lake
Last trinket sims I saw had six-feather fan behind the ursoc trinket but above everything else @karmic cobalt
pseudo grove
don't expect spreadsheet update before tonight
also, in spreadsheet, there will no longer have stats scaling value for default profiles but instead optimal stat distrubtion for a given pool (atm, only 1, prob around 20k)
karmic cobalt
@acoustic lake just realized I was looking at sub, lol
@pseudo grove love all the hard work you put into this, thanks!
regarding outlaw, nothing should really change as far as relic prio, right?
pseudo grove
even relic prio won't change
hexed oak
just wait until he posts the results....
karmic cobalt
makes sense
I am really excited to see whether we'll actually have a poison build pull ahead next week as well for sin, but we'll just see how it sims 😃
grave ember
Are we looking at Assassination being viable for raid and outshine outlaw? next week?
plush relic
Outshine? No
manic bay
imo, the fight structure in EN still favors Outlaw, assuming all 3 specs are equal.
untold raptor
its 3:3 3 with aoe 3 single with spider being viable as sub with dfa
ruby oxide
anyone know the ideal stat spread for sub? particularly what the Vers/Mast numbers should look like?
untold raptor
it was vers mas b4 need to wait for new ones althou logic says they buffed finishers so mastery should go up
split relic
Man that's wonderfully balanced isn't it haha
pseudo grove
it's balanced for now
but when you'll get gear
sub > others
basically
more infos later
pulsar fiber
what is the sin spec you are using? how is it different from the exsang one?
odd echo
agonizing one
split relic
This seems like a healthy balance state when you consider outlaw needs to not be first in single target to compensate for blade flurry
acoustic lake
not in this channel
This channel is for theorycrafting math, if you want to talk strats, use general-moderated or simple questions if you've got questions
icy mango
Kiwi, how does go from lowest of the 3 in heroic gear to way at the top #1 in mythic gear? Is there some crazy scaling i'm not aware of?
plain moss
sub scales very well, especially w/ weapon damage, so
odd echo
and mastery
shadow sable
There is a 30% DP buff and poison specs still prefers Ago?
edgy thistle
Is there anyway to organize this chat? Like if you want to pull up old conversations? Or are they just buried?
acoustic lake
The general idea would be that it wouldn't take much scrolling of this chat to find useful relevant information, however theres a bit of unnecessary fluff in between
When we have definitive final data to give, those comments will be pinned so that you can easily scroll to them
thorny mist
The sims that are posted above are they 34/34?
acoustic lake
No, they have the expected traits you'll have by the time you hit those gear levels
swift canopy
Those gear levels being EN geared or nighthold geared?
thorny mist
Seems like EN
odd echo
EN
rain lance
Hey folks just a reminder, this channel is for more mathmatically oriented discussion
swift canopy
Yeah sorry. Just wanted to ask that one question
distant gate
@acoustic lake what is the expected trait amount for the Pre raid and Heroic raid Sub sims that are teased above?
shadow sable
@distant gate this has actually been answered 5 lines up
distant gate
I dont see it, it says the "expected" amount, it doesnt seem to have a number
I am merely asking what was the expected amount on those sims
shadow sable
@distant gate okay my bad
earnest fractal
while siming myself i noticed that outlaw_t19h aswell as other rogue premade profiles are build around more than questionable gear choices, ranging from low vers and high mastery neck, to low haste, high Mastery chest. just as an example. this results in 8291 mastery in the profile, wich should not reflect what a gearset on live or hypotetical BiS scenarions should look like. Im sure sims around the spec are still relevant, just to what degree ??
prime vigil
so after the hotfix Outlaw still has the highest dps?
or is this outdated http://www.aethys.eu/wow/simc/after.html ?
flat rain
Timestamp: Tue Sep 13 17:17:32 2016
prime vigil
Oh k thx
mossy belfry
Is it possible to simulate your dps against a target dummy without any buffs/food/potions etc? With simcraft?
rain lance
yes, you can remove the lines the define food, flask and use potions (both the prepot line and in the apl)
fair owl
btw Il'gy trinekt is atm undervalued in simc
rain lance
How so?
fair owl
doing way less dps than in practice
rain lance
alright but you haven't localized what the issue is?
fair owl
fairly sure has higher proc chance in real life vs simc
in simc it's about 16%
on most fights i've used it it was ~30+
(4min+)
and it's doing less dmg in simc on an 881 profile per hit, vs same ilvl trinket on my 855 rogue
crisp holly
most the trinkets are incredibly poor for us in EN from what I've seen.
stuck sapphire
gray it can be also just luck on your side, the sample data you provide arnt enough
hexed oak
guys ive got a simc output question....looking at Resources it says
roll_the_bones 16.4 (casts) 200.3 (total energy) 12.2 (average energy)
how can the average energy cost of RtB be 12.2? it should be 25 minus a multiple of 4 (depending on how many relics you have)
crisp basin
nvm, I think it could be the free one in the prepull
hexed oak
yes im aware that thats how math works 😛
white trail
the question is not how 12.2 are derived but why
rain lance
<@&226424944148480000>
plush relic
because averages?
hexed oak
the cost has no average
white trail
energy doesn't change from roll to roll
hexed oak
its a fixed cost
rain lance
Cost should be constant, that is correct
crisp basin
not really since the cost wont change between iterations
plush relic
what i've found, and I could be wrong
is the variance of rtb casts between the different iterations
combined with the fact that the sim THEN tries to average them
leads to some trailing decimals
rain lance
Right but in any number of iterations you should still have the same RtB cost
plush relic
idk have to look at the code to see exactly how it determines cost then
take it with a grain of salt?
:p
the fact that somewhere it somehow used 200.3 energy for rtb casts is whats causing the issue, I see your point
crisp basin
0.000 Rogue_Outlaw_T19P performs roll_the_bones (100)
0.000 Rogue_Outlaw_T19P roll_the_bones hits Fluffy_Pillow for 0 physical damage (none)
0.000 Rogue_Outlaw_T19P consumes 0.0 energy for roll_the_bones (100)
plush relic
Does SimC use exact or rounded values?
crisp basin
the prepull one is free
plush relic
for energy costs
rain lance
ok, mystery solved but cool question
plush relic
I like those, bring more :p
hexed oak
last abyss
what is the recommended haste/mastery for outlaw? I understand that the stat priority is versa+ but i feel i am energy starved during long encounters
rain lance
better question for #228879234540503040 or #off-topic
ember wigeon
I justed tested in game and SoD buff all procs from trinket as well, 845 terrorbound nexus (tooltip says 108K) deals 123k without SoD, around 150k with SoD
not sure if simc take that into account
also that trinket go from you and then come back so it hits twice
chrome sun
just saw a ping from you @rain lance - what's up?
rain lance
nevermind
chrome sun
👍
lament grotto
How is the progress on the Rogue module going? Will it make it into one of the nightly builds this weekend?
fathom bramble
for the changes? basically done
pearl locust
Has anyone recently confirmed the interaction between Blunderbuss and Greenskin's Waterlogged Wristcuffs?
manic bay
According to (https://www.wowhead.com/spell=202895/blunderbuss#modified-by) Blunderbuss is affected by Greenskin's
icy mango
Not working how?
near sail
it keeps closing, or shows up as 0 dps
the only thing i've done different is switched specs and tried simming things from that copy/paste
icy mango
This might be a question for #228879234540503040 or #off-topic since this channel is more of a maths oriented channel.
Try re-downloading and reinstalling
manic pulsar
@near sail did you check the artifact ?
It does weird things when you change spec but do not update to the right artifact
near sail
i can try it again
everytime
it'll continue simulating until the end, and then result in the window
manic pulsar
Yeah latest version does not compile
unique pecan
what is simming the highest after changes?
manic pulsar
Aethys is summing higher
Because he has better gear than me =O
On a more serious note, all three specs are pretty much lined up Dps wise at current gear level
fathom bramble
changes bumped my rogue by like 20k
manic pulsar
Sub hype
fathom bramble
played sub week 1 😃
slow trench
Riff, what is your rogue simming at?
fathom bramble
298k
slow trench
Damnit
fathom bramble
well probably 299k now
slow trench
Am 8k behind 💔
fathom bramble
I have 20 traits
manic pulsar
^^
slow trench
I have 18
fathom bramble
and nice mastery gear, cos I prepped sub not outlaw
manic pulsar
I have 13 for now =O
slow trench
What mastery % u at?
manic pulsar
But will change all my gear by tomorrow
fathom bramble
like 80%, tho I have items to bump it to 90% for shorter fights if I need
fathom bramble
I have a 850 horn too for < 3min fights
slow trench
What u got?
strange hornet
Been keeping sub up for pvp
fathom bramble
can't remember off top of my head, and logged into a different rogue at the min
strange hornet
Paid off
rain lance
Hey folks please move this conversation to #off-topic
strange hornet
Sorry just realised
slow trench
Sry
rain lance
not a problem
signal vortex
@unique pecan #rules-and-guides 😃
coarse roost
interesting
frozen brook
the 24 sept simc nightly build does it support the upcoming hotfix?
frozen brook
SimcSetup-703-03-Win64.exe 2016-09-24 23:29 44M
because when i use that build my outlaw simming at 250 while sub at 284k 😅
350k*
signal vortex
"For which build" was for Pharadox 😄
acoustic lake
Would have to see your setup to figure out why it simmed that way
You used the ingame addon?
frozen brook
yeah
acoustic lake
If you just pm me what the addon gave you I will check it
frozen brook
ok sec
im gonna try reinstall first to see if it'll fix/change
ok reinstalling fixed it 😅
manic pulsar
@Tyrontis that is not the correct version of Simc you are using it should be 703-03
icy mango
Where can you download simc 703-03? I don't see the build in the downloads section of the website
rain lance
I don't think there has been a nightly yet but you can get the latest source on github and build from that
past kiln
Dats a good pin
acoustic lake
I'm still learning :L I wanted to just pin the block of messages but it seems to just pin one at a time
past kiln
lol
brazen tartan
are all of the balance changes in the 2016-09-24 23:29 build? and if so whats up with these AoE (4 target) results https://gyazo.com/8958b8746d7cde751f9abed6a7c49388
assassination pre-raid gear AoE better than even Heroic gear sub/outlaw?
formal tartan
Unless that is bugged out, I suppose that's what four ruptures looks like for however many minutes that sim is. An almost worthless effort, there isn't going to be an encounter where you're fighting four targets for 6 minutes or whatever.
sour knot
assassin simming higher than outlaw in next hotfix?
brazen tartan
no probably not
single target all specs are basically simming the same, still figuring out AoE
sour knot
trying to decide which spec to play for mythic+
someone said they cleared +10 with sin
formal tartan
Outlaw will likely be best for M+ but at any rate, #off-topic or #228879234540503040 is a better place to ask that question.
sour knot
oh ok sorry thandorr
brazen tartan
heres a HecticAddCleave sim https://gyazo.com/818c15e29263c1e8114e2400abc53281
formal tartan
It seems so odd that assn would sim higher in a hectic add cleave sim. I hardly would think that multi-rupture/FoK spam would be better than BF even after the buffs
brazen tartan
heres the same sim in build 5345ef3 (before balance changes) https://gyazo.com/e298eb3c07574b034b943146a12a0dbd
outlaw went down, sub and sin went up
past knoll
im so confused by all these results. i guess i'll bank all my ap till the patch actually hits on tuesday lol
humble tapir
that's pre-raid right? what about heroic and mythic
stable falcon
Guys, this sims are based on which artifact level?
brazen tartan
depends on the gear profile
preraid profiles are level 20
heres all profiles, HecticAddCleave, post balance changes https://gyazo.com/4558d55439a69afce1ffb774e0f0601b
pretty interesting how outlaw ends up on top
kind of bizzare actually, such a huge change from heroic to mythic
dire fern
....scaling maybe?
unreal prism
how exactly does exsang build only gain 30k from heroic to mythic gear?
limpid igloo
Hey since you guys are talking about this currently is it a big hit to your raid to go assass rather than outlaw? I also see sub is high on all these sims being ran but i keep hearing its not very good?
vast bobcat
Sub is getting buffed on Tuesday, they're running sims on what it will look like after the buffs
limpid igloo
@vast bobcat so if I'm reading correctly, after Tuesday when sub gets buffed it's simming as strongest spec in EN gear? (T19)
vast bobcat
I'm just lurking, but it seems like it's pulling ahead after getting geared(heroic+ish)
pseudo grove
Wait for AoE sims, second shuriken is not here yet and both sub & sin needs APL changes
also, it seems that some things are not correctly implemented based on what you said
besides SoD pmultiplier and blunderbuss/leg, is there anything else you saw ?
grizzled kite
Are there Single Target sims fully completed?
plush relic
check pinned
acoustic lake
They aren't fully completed, just initial. Things might change while aethys checks over things
wheat magnet
So the takeaway from the pins is that Sub begins to outscale around Mythic EN level of gear?
white trail
at heroic it seems
wheat magnet
Wait
Sub T19P > Outlaw T19H on ST damage?
rip
I think I'm misreading Aethys's graph
hexed oak
mythic gear...sub>outlaw>assa
heroic gear....assa>=sub>outlaw
single-target....and its a sim obviously
wheat magnet
Cool, cheers
trail topaz
@brazen tartan do you know who ran the sim you linked with the aoe numbers?
pulsar fiber
Can someone try a crit mastery build for sin with vigor alacrity? Or is that a pipe dream?
shadow sable
Aethys just pushed something for Double Shuriken, if some of you are building from source
pseudo grove
yes I just finished it
it should be okay now
APL isn't done tho
I have multiple things to check/improve
should be able to finish it this afternoon
but don't quote me on this 😄
cus I also play the game sometime
!
severe cradle
As you should
wicked lark
Thanks for keeping us up2date @pseudo grove
random matrix
Yeah thank you @pseudo grove
signal vortex
All the theorycrafters are doing a fantastic job yeh 👍
vague wharf
🤗
tribal shadow
hey everyone, just came in here and looked at some of all the sims posted here... will the upcoming buffs to sub/assa really make outlaw one of the lower ST dps specs?
tribal shadow
hmm okay, good thing i upgraded my sub over assa due to pvp 😄
but i seems like T19 heroic that outlaw will in fact be the lowest dps?
kinda amazed that such "little" buffs can make that huge a difference
odd echo
afaik sub was always going to outscale the other specs, thats just how sub works. but i feel like this channel aint the right place for this discussion, its more for all that number crunching etc
pseudo grove
hoary fable
glacial quiver
lavish nimbus
unreal turret
upbeat bear
sharp heath
zealous python
spell_targets.shuriken_storm>=2+talent.premeditation.enabled+equipped.shadow_satyrs_walk
looks like it's our new stealthed shuriken storm condition 😃
I tried multiple things related to energetic stabbing, shadowstrike trait & second shuriken
but none were too powerful to change it
only talent & leg
strange hornet
Too powerful to change what sorry?
strong surge
at 3 targets without boots basically, right?
karmic cobalt
will the sub relic choices (i.e. energetic stabbing best) change tues?
frozen brook
i have 1951 mastery. and in simc it's like this Agility=10.03, Ap=9.52, CritRating=6.04, HasteRating=6.21, MasteryRating=9.00, Versatility=6.71, Dps=11.97 )
sub really values mastery that high? is that correct?
frozen brook
wow ok thx aethys
pseudo grove
@here does someone have logs with Insignia of Ravenholdt please ?
the more you have, the best it is
plush relic
what kind of logs do u need
i got the mythic+ ones i think
on sims insignia is way overrated
all should be with insignia
frozen brook
@pseudo grove the sub second shuriken sim done yet? wanna decide if i should put point in it before going further into akaari soul
pseudo grove
it's good @plush relic now
got what I wanted in pm
thanks tho !
@frozen brook yes
you can test it yourself by pulling latest changes
frozen brook
ok thx
ionic nimbus
Hi guys ! Chaos Talisman 840 , Egg of Serpentix 845 (with socket) , Tirathons Betrayal 845 .. Which two ? Serpentix currently does aprox 7 % of my dps on fights so think its pretty good ?
odd echo
sim it
ionic nimbus
yeah but im thinking its not that accurate cause from playing results are kinda different
pseudo grove
well, now I'm looking at Assassination Insignia of Ravenholdt logs
if you have any 😄
didn't found yet on wcl
south onyx
i am new to rogues what is the stat priority
odd echo
plush relic
i dont play assa at all so, yeah i got no logs, i only play otl atm
pseudo grove
as a lot of players 😄
plush relic
well i dont enjoy assa at all, might play sub later when i get more traits in it, i was gonna main dh if outlaw wasnt getting buffed pre legion
it actually does way more dmg for sub than for outlaw
also it double dips on % increases too, like BRH last boss
shadow sable
Aethys: I play Assa and will only play Assa this expansion. But I don't have the Ravenholdt yet 😃
unreal badge
hidden satyr is still the best neck enchant right?
wheat forum
yes
civic tapir
Any update on poison vs bleed build for tuesday?
spice spade
how can u get the guild code for upload logs??
plush relic
Got no assa logs
charred marsh
bonus_id=1727/1492/1813 i replace the 1727 for bonus ?
trinkets confuse me sometimes lol
nvm i'll ask it somewhere else
jovial dawn
so I started to pump up points to assa AK, but I took the route describe on icy-veins I just got my first golden trait, it is worth reseting it for 11kl and follow the trait path describe in the document ?
what would be the % dps difference ? anyone tried already ? or dealt with same problem ? 😄
worldly crest
@pseudo grove I know,i am asking too much,but would it be possible to do this https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=E269C12457D12FAC!117&ithint=file%2Cxlsx&app=Excel&authkey=!AHxBKV_biTNzfRY for rogues after next week hotfixes?
wide vessel
Is the SimC model for Jacin's Ruse set bonus correct?
Currently putting me 1.3k DPS higher with two 840 pieces above an 880 glove + 850 boot
south onyx
quick question on the guide you guys gave me
merry surge
Just got 850 Nature's Call, safe to say it's better than a straight agi/haste trinket?
acoustic lake
The usual answer would be to sim it. Its a pretty terrible trinket and depending on your haste you might prefer that if its same ilvl
frosty glade
hey, does anyone know if there are issues with the appendages trinket simming or is it really just that bad
dark bronze
It's pretty bad
All the trinkets from EN are pretty bad for us other than instinct
Mythic+ is your best bet for a good 2nd trinket
teal cave
is there a way to use simcraft to glean stat weights for my current gear, to see if an item is an upgrade. or should I just sim current gear vs new
deft hatch
#rules-and-guides how to sim yourself
dim pendant
@teal cave follow the guide, it will show you how to calculate your own stat weights which can give you a rough guide to on the fly upgrades then can sim them properly later
teal cave
ahh perfect, thank you
pseudo grove
spreadsheet is updating 😄
talents almost done
latest navv changes speed upped it by like 12x
chrome sun
yeah, it's SO much more efficient
plush relic
weird idea in muh brain
once you get the surge of toxins talent
in opener or burst phase would you
exsang > mut > env> kb
or still exsang > kb mut
Ima screw with the simc apl and see what it does
chrome sun
what's the premise there?
plush relic
surge of toxins increases poison damage
chrome sun
right
plush relic
kingsbane is a poison
chrome sun
true.
plush relic
and has an inital tick
chrome sun
oh, so the idea is that the envenom is worth doing pre-KB
plush relic
apply during 10% cincreased window
yeah
and then hoping for a double mut proc
because of the envenom
chrome sun
probably a function of crit
plush relic
getting 2 poison applications
pseudo grove
another interesting thing
chrome sun
i bet you'd see good perf gains at high crit
plush relic
it's not crit related
chrome sun
isn't mut proc crit related?
chrome sun
(haven't touched assassination in a whiel)
plush relic
both strikes of mut
chrome sun
ahhhh
plush relic
can proc a poison application
plush relic
higher chance with envenom
chrome sun
DfA seems to be simming okay for you, aethys?
pseudo grove
yes @chrome sun
it's best in 3T as sub
almost best at 2T
and probably best with better weighted gear
I mean balanced
it's best as Outlaw
at 2T
chrome sun
goodness!
the aoe portion was buffed enough?
our APL probaly doesn't use it optimally right now, either, given that we haven't focused on working with it
trail topaz
Is the Default APL from simcraft the most up-to-date?
chrome sun
in general, yes; we regenerate the default profile whenever we make changes
so whatever is in the latest commit is up-to-date, by default
trail topaz
Alright thanks. I figured looking at the APL would be the best way to learn the rotation for Assasination Exs
trail topaz
lol
took me bit to figure out how to read an APL but i improved arms a bit before the most recent nerf. ~12k prenerf. lol
white trail
@pseudo grove you said yesterday dfa is not good
pseudo grove
in ST yes
idle hull
how much % damage is the neck/ring demon combo doing generally?
tried to put demon in simc but didnt see the proc showing up
acoustic lake
T19P is 840~ ilvl gear with 19 artifact traits
dusty elbow
ooh ok so how come it shows sub is higher than outlaw ?
frozen brook
because that's how it is
frozen brook
when u have the gear
frozen brook
@pseudo grove is there any sim for aoe with second shuriken? i dont know how to do the sim without taking the trait 😁
tardy bluff
Is sin gonna fall terribly behind in the future scaling wise? or will it just be progressive and only sub will outscale?
manic pulsar
Bleed scale pretty bad, but poison scale pretty well and will probably overscalr bleed later on
tardy bluff
Will it be falling behind the other specs pretty terribly? or will it be fine in the future ?
wicked lark
seems like it will
dunno if it's worth to go for sin just for like heroic level of gear
zealous compass
Might be worth getting 2nd golden trait for 'sin to have as an offspecc for pure ST fights?
manic pulsar
Yeah it should stay decent ^^
zealous compass
I like that sub has a future now. I really like the specc, but from what I can tell from sims (and simming my own char) it is very gear dependent?
twin moth
Do you guys manage to get a proper sim of it? My haste weight is always > 2
wicked lark
do we have aoe sims for sub including the buffs?
bitter shadow
Only sim i know of is the pinned post
twilit gyro
hey guys for subtlety, how big a difference in DPS is subterfuge vs nightstalker talents?
sick quail
How to See pinned?
bitter shadow
Top right pin
twin moth
Nobody else experiencing this issue?
bitter shadow
@sick quail
sick quail
Cant See One in the Android client
wicked lark
ye doesn't work on android I think
plush relic
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/217609644107890690/229247692251856897/goodbye_outlaw.PNG (repost the pinned image)
sick quail
Thx
plush relic
assa 19p without exsang, is that the poison build btw?
wicked lark
yes
devout halo
Is that post deadlypoison buff?
Would've expected exsang to do a bit better with that 😮
summer finch
well exsang does not scale very good
wet geode
rip 400% exsang 2016-2016
cobalt torrent
so the current sim is for what ilvl gear that is being displayed here ?
idk you people are saying rip outlaw, but how much havae you guys invested ap wise into outlaw ?
lilac ore
21 points, i still have a full bank of AP
ember wigeon
how do trinkets are implemented on simc? each of them are modeled individually?
I don't see the proc rate on wowhead for my trinkets, I wonder how the guys at simc extrapolated the info
acoustic lake
yeah pretty much
when explicit rates aren't available info comes from just testing it in game or asking devs directly
there was a forum thread during beta where a lot of those theorycrafting related questions were answered by devs
ember wigeon
ok
anyone can see the procrate from this? https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/blob/c364e5592ff8f1ff6ebdbf7e496a5056269eb7cd/engine/player/sc_unique_gear_x7.cpp#L1326
plush relic
How can I see the talents used in sim
vestal salmon
how significant are the sin/sub AoE buffs?
acoustic lake
Not fully known yet, give some time for all the sims to be done
wicked lark
I would expect sub aoe to be way better then before but we'll see
chilly hamlet
yes
white trail
Aethys poster packs situation
Sub was ahead on both AoE and priority target damage
But I assume it was done with at least second shuriken picked in artifact
If not shadow nova on top
ember wigeon
shadow nova proc out of shD?
ember wigeon
there are a lot of good traits for sub, I don't know why my World Quest always manage to proc the dodge ones 😦
it's getting ridiculous
zealous compass
+1
unique carbon
I've gotten Demon's Kiss on all my WQ ones except this week
I've a feeling that's good with the coming buff, Demon's Kiss might pull ahead of Energetic (or at least get closer), or am I misthinking here?
ember wigeon
damn and here I was thinking eveyrone got the same traits 😮
unique carbon
Well it was a while back, afaik you get the same ones from WQ
Echo of Eons and Bloodtotem Brand
ember wigeon
I have like 90% iron/blood relic
and the only ones for sub I see are dodge
not even exagerating
unique carbon
I've had one Blood Relic that was good for Outlaw, and it was 805
I've never had one since
There's some dungeons you could farm though
ember wigeon
yeah I'm spamming BRH and EOA like crazy
can't fucking drop a single energetic stabbing relic 😦
unique carbon
I know the feeling 😦 relics are tough to get a hold off
torn flume
Anyone know if the recent changes put nightblade or eviscerate relics above energetic stabbing
ember wigeon
check the link above
brittle umbra
can we sim with the new class changes yet?
wary idol
for me assa is like 100 dps behind outlaw
austere bramble
quick flicker
