pvp

[severe helm]

Like a trinket off last boss?

[subtle warren]

no that's not the right equivalency you're making

Healer is a certain gameplay style - people either will or won't play it. Perhaps you can persuade some to try it with rewards. Dps let's consider a separate game mode - those people aren't going to heal anyway, but there's a subset of them that also just don't really play at all because of the queue times.

So it's a multi pronged approach

[severe helm]

So how do you get more healers

You say the ratio is the issue

Queue times obv aren't the reason healers don't heal

[subtle warren]

With more rewards + dps skill increasing due to reps with healer bots

You'll never reduce the queue times to instant through natural means - but that doesn't mean we can't aim for better

[severe helm]

Pve players weren't very happy when the best/fastest way to get gear was to pvp. The pvpers were happy cuz it artificially inflated their rating but that's a zero sum gain

[subtle warren]

Also - and this may be overlooked, insta queues actually would make dps play more healers imo. I like healing and have priest, but admittedly I like my rogue more. If I could login, rip 5-10 games on my rogue, I would definitely log in my healer for a few.

But right now, i sit here for 3 hours to play 5 scuffed shuiffles and im burnt

[severe helm]

Yeah idk about that logic

[dark kernel]

I don't think you even need to go in that direction. I think there should just be a benefit. Even if it's extra vault. For participating in excess contrnt

[subtle warren]

Yeah, not advocating for this. I'm saying make it an alternative, we just want to pull some of them - not all of them

[dark kernel]

Like a PvE player doing shuffle/arena gets them vault slots that can scale with their M+ clears

Like we used to have

It's like barely an advantage and they could just ignore it still

[severe helm]

I think healer specific rewards would help or something like if you win a shuffle on healer you earn a priority queue on your main haha

Has to be 3/6 or higher so people don't just throw

[subtle warren]

@severe helm But I literally said that in my post

[severe helm]

But that sure would boost healer participation

[subtle warren]

But i'm saying the other 2 steps would also go a long way in helping

There's just legit 0 reason in 2026 you can't queue a 3v3 with 2 bot healers at 1500

[severe helm]

I think pve and pvp shouldn't blend

[subtle warren]

to learn the game

[severe helm]

It would mean too much gearing overlap since gear has changed so much

Bots could work I think there's a lot of negative sentiment towards that

[subtle warren]

People that have been playing this for a long time forget how INSANELY daunting it is for newer players

[severe helm]

Not sure how well the players would receive it

[subtle warren]

You could opt in/out

[severe helm]

And for bots that's just not something I think blizz could warrant giving resources to

[subtle warren]

Imo it would bring the biggest influx of players ever.

[severe helm]

They barely have enough dev talent to make classes function without bugs

[subtle warren]

People just want to play

[severe helm]

They don't though they want to play under certain conditions

[subtle warren]

Yeah you're not wrong there, they're truly pretty trash as a dev team now. But imo it shouldn't be that difficult

Higher rated players do

most people just want reps and fair games

like - people at 2100 aren't kicking shit or using defensives

[severe helm]

I think rewards is the right solution to focus on

It requires less development effort by magnitudes

And achieves a similar goal

[subtle warren]

Yeah they should do hat 100% its actualyl insane they haven't because the dev time is non-existant

[severe helm]

And doesn't open a can of worms about bots in competitive pvp

[subtle warren]

1 day of work

but I think the low rating bots would be massive

There's just no way to learn small scale fundamentals

[dark kernel]

They need a legit full blown battle pass. Make it fund the fucking AW'C so my god damn streamers can quit playing slots.

[subtle warren]

Unfortunately blizzards goal is simply "what makes the most money". But what if you were hired in a role and told that we want you to grow arena participation to an all time-high, through whatever means.

What would your solution be? Would it actually to just be adding a few healer rewards? you'd make a 5% dent in queues.

GOtta think like a product team if your only product was arena.

[wise sequoia]

I think they should unify rated-unrated pvp. Delete normal BGs and just have blitz, expand map pool. Make rating hidden and instead put people in categories (combatant-duelist-ect.). Give more conquest at higher ratings.

Unify all gear so mythic-0 gear is as good as honor for pvp and honor is as good as mythic-0 for pve. Same with mythic+7ish and conquest. Then people can farm gear in any content and play any content. Maybe a particular trinket is sometimes BiS for the other mode, but item levels are the same.

I do like the idea of bots to bring down queuetimes. Just have a checkbox where you can opt out of bot games if you prefer. Bot games only affect rating below some threshold (1800?).

Lots of good ideas are floating around. Sadly none of them will be implemented.

[jolly sierra]

nah ppl in unrated sometimes is disgustingly bad

even playing from years

the difference between rated and unrrated players is still noticeable

leave them alone xd

[wise sequoia]

Iron league exists in LoL fpr a reason. Noone requires you to have skills to queue up. Just get in game and mess around - and if you have a modicum of ability, you will play against people of a similar level, instead of a mix of ungeared afk bots and R1 players.

Smurfing sucks, and so does it to be on a team where half the players have no gear. Put the skilled players and the ungeared noobs together with players of their kind.

[subtle warren]

I agree @wise sequoia on some of the consolidation, I feel like people being so spread is a microcosm of the issue with Blizz supporting literally 8 different versions of the game

It’s truly just a pipe dream but squashing down to 3-4 games and consolidating some in game brackets would be amazing

Would feel so much more like an mmo again

I will die in the hill that low rated healer bots are the single most important addition blizzard could make

[severe helm]

oh god no

you need unrated

to test stuff

and play casually

deadlock only has rated and it can be so toxic when someone is "learning" a new character and on your team

and you just auto lose cuz theyre mega feeding

[jolly sierra]

there is people which refuses to play rated

and just have their comfort zone there

yes, people which plays from decades and even had 250k kills in pvp

[severe helm]

A lot of people like the unrated system where you get to stomp other people who are undergeared

people even do premade unrated bgs for that

[jolly sierra]

isnt that the bully mindset?

[severe helm]

its weird but some people love it ig

yes

it 1000% is

like how rogues camp low level players in classic

and just spawn kill them over and over

[jolly sierra]

yep, ngl, trickz will spare me for that

but is pathetic as fuck

[severe helm]

its very pathetic

[jolly sierra]

ive seen one like that once

[severe helm]

but some people play games to satisfy some drive for feeling superior

[jolly sierra]

called him off for playing like shit

[severe helm]

even if it means cheating/beating lower level players in unfair matches

[jolly sierra]

and he said "do you have HKs achivs?"

i said "i have elite does that works?"

checked his checkpvp and no, no rated achivs

yep, its real

[hazy monolith]

$5

[static holly]

What did you expect?

New cash cow

[proven field]

Unrated premade groups are biggest losers in wow - full stop

[severe helm]

absolutely

[static holly]

Actually, it's quite unfair that they're putting all their revenue into PvE content. PvP should be treated equally

[summer burrow]

So whats doing better for PvP atm for rogue specs?

[static holly]

Sub

See the pinned builds

[summer burrow]

ty ty

[proven field]

I tried assa and it’s at least comfortably mid now but it’s pretty soft pressure compared to sub

[dark moon]

pvp community is very very smol

so whoever has the bigger voice wins

[wet crown]

player vs paladin

[hazy monolith]

I think a PvP Battle pass is the only way we get meaningful dev time in the future

[dark moon]

there's a pvp battle pass called 1.8 elite set and 2.3 glad now

[hazy monolith]

Well thats makes absolutely no sense

They need to realize they can make extra money off of PvP

Otherwise pvp will stay in this spot forever

Thats how Blizz works

[dark moon]

they cant, ive seen people on the forums, they are scared to even try cause multiglad gigachad is there to flame them

[static holly]

Might be but I also pay the same amount, so my voice counts ecuaoly

[dark moon]

they avoid pvp as if its a plague

[hazy monolith]

In theory maybe but that is not how it works

[dark moon]

thats also the reason i dont play 3s cause there's shuffle

i dont want people to tell me im shit - i already know that

lfg experience was awful

[static holly]

Paying twice so that they do something for pvp? Wth 😱

[hazy monolith]

You already pay twice or more if you buy tokens

[static holly]

I understand your point but it's no solution

[subtle warren]

Sorry I already solved the issue

[hazy monolith]

Modern Blizz is maximum milk. Accept it or ditch

[static holly]

Y

[wise sequoia]

Just hide the rating and only show it in achievements. Obviously people need to practice. Would you rather have a glad skilled player on your team trying out a new spec or an ungeared afk bot?

Care so much about rating that you cant queue because you are close to duelist? Make an alt. Play against bots.

Its silly to ruin the bracket for everyone just so every game is completely random and based of which team have actual players.

Smurfs ruin the game for everyone else. So does ungeared afk’ers. Mediocre players (80% of the players) deserve decent fights. Also skilled players get to actually be challanged instead of winning/losing based on pure luck. And afk honor farmers can still do so without upsetting anyone.

[subtle warren]

Healer bots + healer rewards + maybe even a full bot “walk through”

[hazy monolith]

That’s why the solution lies in generating money with PvP or play another game or accept the bad status

[subtle warren]

Unfortunately @hazy monolith is correct though

Nothing else matters tot hem

We are a very long way from the control being at the dev who cares about the game level

Its shareholder PvP boys

Bro ya

[spring bough]

Gregers out here each and everyday working hard for that Nobel Prize 🔥

[subtle warren]

Healer bots at super low rating so people can learn

It’s so braindead simple

[spring bough]

God damn bro is throwing out heaters. I’m ready for some more computations today

[wise sequoia]

Blizz hire me allready! Professional armchair expert!

[subtle warren]

You’d just make it so you never have a bot above X rating that way all the anti bot badasses never deal with it

But it would improve the skill levels at lower brackets much

[hazy monolith]

I have a more Blizz solution: arena-wide decaying HoTs

[subtle warren]

Lmaooo

[static holly]

You don't fix the game by rewarding healers. You should start by fixing the shitty oldskool rating system

[subtle warren]

They would def cook up the most fried shit

Wrong

You start with engagement and accessibility

You want to pull in as many people at once, and make it easier to continue to pull new ones

Retaining them is another issue

But one is higher prio, anyone playing right now is already addicted to the crack, they aren’t going anywhere

Bro playing shuffle with healers that don’t have trinket bound is PvB

You could quadruple the number of shuffles being played between 1500-2000 instantly

It would legit benefit everyone

You want better games at 2200? Great, now you have a bunch of people who spammed weeks of games and they’re comfortable using focus and 1/2/3 macros

“Git gud trial by fire” style learning just doesn’t work for the masses

Again, have to business mindset it

[analog tapir]

so the talents u guys put in pinned

are bis?

[subtle warren]

@ornate quiver you can disagree man but I’m sure you’ve never been in charge of developing and scaling anything

[wise sequoia]

I think Notrickz updated them yesterday.

[subtle warren]

@ornate quiver can I ask you seriously, what ranking are you? In shuffle

[severe helm]

I dont think thats necessarily true still

[subtle warren]

And I’m not saying this to put you down I’m just curious

[severe helm]

people dont want to play against bots

[subtle warren]

People could opt out

[severe helm]

thats even worse

cuz then youd feel forced to do it if you want to play at all

[subtle warren]

I bet 50+% if people would opt in

Bro no that’s so illogical

[severe helm]

and again the development time to make bots that arent insanely tilting to play with is probagbly very high

so its not a realistic solution for its cost

[subtle warren]

The people in the bot pool would be playing g bots which would make queues faster in the non bot side

I swear man it’s basic math

[severe helm]

the fuck

how int he world did you get that math

[subtle warren]

You’re saying you’d have to opt in to play?

[severe helm]

youre assuming only dps would play with bots

[subtle warren]

They would

It’s only healer bots

Paired in games

It would crush the queue times

Arena is just pve with extra steps

[severe helm]

this is like the "add more lanes to the highway" problem

[subtle warren]

If you’re 2400 why would you care? If people 1500-2000 played more games and got better?

[severe helm]

it doesnt actually fix the issue

[subtle warren]

Yes it does…..

[severe helm]

not if it makes more healers swap back to dps

more lanes on the highway

does not mean less traffic

its a paradox but its the reality

[subtle warren]

You’d have to simultaneously create healer rewards and fix that situation

[severe helm]

and AGAIN the development time to make non shit bots is just not feasible I think

[severe helm]

I think that solution alone is better

for both cost and efficacy

with less negative externalities

[wise sequoia]

Yeah thats how SS affected 3s. Lots of people prefer have a team, but SS is so much more convenient that 80% players choose it, and the remaining 20% are “forced” to play a bracket they don’t enjoy.

Still think its good for the game though.

And if healing is actually fun, 1/3 of the bots games will have healers.

[subtle warren]

That solution won’t even have a measurable impact. And the bot dev time actually wouldn’t be that much

[severe helm]

why do you think it woiuldnt be that much...

bro it takes them a full expansion to fix a bug with a talent

[subtle warren]

Because they already exist

[severe helm]

LOL

THE COMP STOMP BOTS

HAHAHAHAHA

[subtle warren]

Okay again all of this stuff I’m saying would depend on them dedicating some time

[severe helm]

enormous amounts of time

from a team thats already behind on development

[subtle warren]

Bro they had arena like npcs since tbh

[severe helm]

and cant even release non bugged version of the game to prod

[severe helm]

youre fried if you think this

ngl

[subtle warren]

No they’re dogshit

But in 2026 it shouldn’t be that hard to fix

[hazy monolith]

He is talking 1500-2000 I think comp stomp bot’s would already be okay in this range

[severe helm]

neither should 99% of the bugs in this game and the shit UI

but the REALITY is that it does

[subtle warren]

There are literally player bots for classic servers that are fine

For 1500-2000

[severe helm]

and the blizzard dev team is either understaffed, overworked, or under talented or some combination of the 3

[subtle warren]

You could strap them in in a wee

Agreed with the last part

[severe helm]

its just not the right solution

increase rewards

[subtle warren]

Healer fixes and rewards should come first

[severe helm]

other games dont have this problem

and dont need to resort to bots to solve it

[subtle warren]

No you NEED a way to introduce arenas in a less painful way if you want to grow it

[severe helm]

there are better ways to do it that require less dev work and dont have other negative side effects

the healer role is the hard role in arena

the warrior at 1600 doesnt need a smoother introduction to arena

[subtle warren]

Yes they do though apparently

[severe helm]

healer needs better incentives

thats it really

the role sucks to play

without fundamentally changing the game you cant make it suck less

so you have to make it more rewarding

[subtle warren]

It’s not preferring, it’s just having the option when queue times are bad

[severe helm]

queue times will be forever bad as long as healers dont have increased incentives to play the less fun role

playing healer should give you prio queue on your dps main if you win

[subtle warren]

Like I said, I agree with that

Also agreed

[severe helm]

the bot solution doesnt even work if you dont increase healer incentives in the first place

[subtle warren]

How much dot yo think that’s going to help? Honestly

[severe helm]

have to put the horse before the cart

but at that point the cart isnt needed

[subtle warren]

Bro I never said do bots without healer fixes

Your solution won’t even have a measurable impact on queue times

Maybe 10% or something

[severe helm]

neither of us know that for sure

so thats just speculative

as is all of this

I think rewards will have a measurable impact

I think there are other changes to the system that would as well

remove the static rating system

and make it tiered brackets like EVERY OTHER game

[proven field]

Sounds like pvp delves basically - have Brann and pick some talents and play style and then queue with him

[severe helm]

those brackets should be percentile based

not arbitrary rating cutoffs

so you are graded based on your percentile which increases player participation at all times in the season

instead of just waiting til last 3 weeks to queue for rewards

make more rewards available during mid season points

probably break up the season into 2 or 3 sub pvp seasons

so you can hand out seasonal titles multiple times

also increases general participation

also encourage consistent queueing by having decay when you havent played in along time

[subtle warren]

Does lol let people play against bots while they learn?

[severe helm]

specifically to your mmr

not your rating necessarily

[subtle warren]

Overwatch has the option?

[severe helm]

I mean if you want a bot queue

[subtle warren]

StarCraft did?

[severe helm]

make it a bot queue

[subtle warren]

Most games in history

[severe helm]

it shouldtn have anythign to do with rated pvp

[subtle warren]

Okay then make bot arena

[severe helm]

no game that I know of has bots in RATED pvp

[subtle warren]

Whatever

[severe helm]

theres such a long list of stuff you could do to improve the pvp experience and participation before even thikning about bots in rated

[subtle warren]

Ya man throwing them in from 15-1800 would really break the wheel

[severe helm]

they havent even started on the list

[subtle warren]

It’s about reducing queue times and playability

[severe helm]

again theres such a long list of solutions you can do before bots

that require less dev time

and can be very effective

theres no reason to jump to bots

[subtle warren]

With a less measurable impact

[severe helm]

you dotn know

its not measurable

[subtle warren]

I disagree

[severe helm]

that word isnt accurate here

[subtle warren]

But hey

[severe helm]

you cant disagree its a fact

bots dont exist in rated pvp

it cant be measured yet

there is no argument there

it is explicitly speculative

[subtle warren]

So change sub 2k to non rated

Keep a rating but call it “war training”

[severe helm]

sub 2k rating is non rated

[subtle warren]

There you go

[severe helm]

but its rating

so its rated

that doenst make sense haha

[proven field]

Why not just hard lock queues based on spec - if you queue double dps you’ll only ever face double dps - then queues will pop instantly

[severe helm]

were talkinga bout solo shuffle

arena queues arent long

[subtle warren]

You’re making my point for me I feel like?

[severe helm]

thats not the issue

[proven field]

Oh thought all arena

[subtle warren]

sub 2k doesn’t even matter, make it accessible

[proven field]

Just remove healers in shuffle entirely

[severe helm]

?

3v3 dps only is a shit game

[wise sequoia]

They should for sure add pvp delves! Scale the opponents gear/skill level with difficulty! Chose popular comps to beat! Complete achievements and collect housing decor!

Would become bigger than all pvp brackets overnight 😛

[severe helm]

thats just pve

but in the arena setting haha

[wise sequoia]

Exactly

[subtle warren]

Yeah, and it would translate at higher ranks to PvP

“Wow this is fun I’m pretty good at this let me try it rated in PvP”

I’m not even trolling

[proven field]

But there’s no healers and never going to be more so either sit for two hour queues or learn triple dps (or make shuffle 2x2)

[subtle warren]

Or make healer bots

[severe helm]

I mean thats just quitter mentality haha

I would rather wait 30 mins for a queue than get a triple dps lobby in 2 minutes

[subtle warren]

It’s truly so brain fried to think that after 25 years you’re going to get a bunch of people to start playing healer all of sudden

[proven field]

That’s “only get two hours a night to play” mentslity lol

[subtle warren]

Nah man just someone who works with issues like this on a daily basis

[severe helm]

I just started playing healer LOL

[subtle warren]

And some people can’t think outside the box

[severe helm]

the sad reality is players would rather wait in a 45 minute queue than play healer

thats how awful healing is in wow

[hazy monolith]

I think VW disc was already a step in the right direction atleast for me personally. It’s almost like more of a ret than a healer.

[subtle warren]

I completely agree healing needs a huge overhaul

[severe helm]

so mzero is the goal just to make 1500-2k instant queue and anything above is even more barren cuz no one plays healer anymore to even progress to 2k+ as a healer?

idgi

[subtle warren]

But from a business standpoint I think trying to open the floodgates to low level arena is a huge prio

[proven field]

Then make healing like Mario kart boxes - items that spawn that heal/shield you that you play around

[subtle warren]

@severe helm reading comprehension ma

[severe helm]

cuz if you make bots in 1500-2k, all the healers who USED to queue in 1500-2k for fast and eventually progress past it now will just play dps

so its a self sabotaging system

[subtle warren]

No it’s not, not with good healer fixes and incentives

[proven field]

Bots on rated is tough only because the moment your bot does something dumb and theirs doesn’t you’ll scream unfair bullshit

[severe helm]

aaah so the important part is healer fixes and incentives

[subtle warren]

I’m agreeing with you

[severe helm]

the bots are a bandaid fix that actually makes the issue worse

[subtle warren]

I’ve said that 35 times

[severe helm]

maybe we just skip the bot part

[subtle warren]

But you’re also unable to grasp certain points I’m making

[severe helm]

cuz it actively increases the problem lol

[subtle warren]

Because you’re thinking about it the wrong way

[severe helm]

if you can show me what about my logic is wrong then im open to it

how would bots not reduce healer participation in 1500-2k

and yes you can attempt to fight it with the other solutions to healer issues but comparing two scenarios
bots + healer incentives/rewards
vs
just healer incentives/rewards

which one in the long term increases the number of healers playing the game more?

[subtle warren]

The first one

[severe helm]

cuz im pretty fucking sure its the latter

how int he world is it the first one???

[subtle warren]

The first one by a massive margin

[severe helm]

explain whats going on in your brain

[vivid furnace]

any viable build for sub at the moment?

[severe helm]

HAHAHAHAH

give one reason

[proven field]

Don’t think incentivizing healing works - you’d have to slow the game down, give new healers more time to breathe - it’s a fixking disaster trying to learn healing with endless mongo push

[subtle warren]

Because you’re underestimating scale

[severe helm]

scale of what

[subtle warren]

And what it would mean to bring in a large influx of “arena players”

[severe helm]

but theyre all dps players

[subtle warren]

Who would have never otherwise played

[severe helm]

whats the value there

how do bots increase healer participation

[wise sequoia]

Talking about healer incentives… how about gold/blizzard currency?

You get 50 cents worth of either currency or gold (currently 8-9k gold?) per shuffle you heal and go at least 3-3.

If you play well: profits (terrible compared to boosting/working at McDonalds)

If you program bots to play well: now there are great bots in arena that often go 3-3 and instant queuetimes for everyone!

No downsides 😛

[gusty hedge]

Bots in rated is a joke.
like why keep pushing that agenda

[twin wren]

Whats the best spec for a mage in 2s double dps with a sub?

[severe helm]

depends which spec of mage

[twin wren]

Thats my question 😉

[proven field]

Think that’s what he asking

[severe helm]

ooooh

lol my b

[proven field]

Frost most forgiving imo for you

[twin wren]

I worded it a bit backwards sorry

[severe helm]

usually fire with sub

[subtle warren]

Some are dps players first, but then they’re arena players. Your dps gets to 2k, no more bots. Now you want fast queues? Queue on a healer. @severe helm you’re not understand that my solution just gets more people to the point where they care enough about the game to benefit from your solution

[severe helm]

cuz they have a 0 setup burst window

[severe helm]

so what converts the dps to healers

[subtle warren]

You want the most players as possible knocking on the 2k door wanting faster queues

[dark kernel]

The twitter crying is starting about MoP coming to an end and people not knowing what's next.

[wise sequoia]

Fistweaver

Voidweaver disc

[severe helm]

if faster queues was enough incentive to heal we wouldnt be proposing these solutions

[subtle warren]

The top glad level players are going tk play whatever class they want anyway. I’d argue the biggest reason to go play a healer is just knowledge and enjoyment of arenas in general

Healing is overwhelming, it’s wya less overwhelming when you’ve played a dps to 2200

Its scale man

[proven field]

Healing arena never gonna be fun for 98% of players

[subtle warren]

It’s just scale

[severe helm]

then why doesnt that work now

why dont the 2200 dps players now switch to healer

[subtle warren]

Because, we still need your solution

Healer improvements and incentives

But my solution hooks more people into arena

[severe helm]

why do you think getting them to 2k in the first place is important

[subtle warren]

It’s a numbers game

[severe helm]

why?

[proven field]

2200 dps players want to be 2400 dps players

[subtle warren]

Because when you’re 2k you’re now going to stick around the scene

[severe helm]

why?!?!

[subtle warren]

You want 2200

You want glad

You’re a really player

[severe helm]

so then move the rewards down

boom

[dark kernel]

I want to be gladiator I want it spoon fed for me and then I want someone to wipe my ass and breastfeed me from Sydney Sweeney

[severe helm]

inflate the rating

boom

[subtle warren]

Massive queues at 1700 makes nobody wants to play

[severe helm]

if thats all it is then bots are irrelevant

[subtle warren]

No man it’s not just the number

It’s how the game feels

[severe helm]

make glad lower then

[subtle warren]

I’m talking, a bunch more people at “current 2k skill”

See

[severe helm]

skill is relative

[subtle warren]

You’re thinking about it the wrong way again

[severe helm]

2k is an arbitrary point on a distribution

2k could be called 2mil rating

[subtle warren]

It’s a blending of the number and the comfortability at that number, I’m using 2& as an example

[severe helm]

it doesnt change the skill level

[spring bough]

Why do we even need a healer in solo shuffle? Fuck it 3v3 dps instant ques

[severe helm]

if that were true then youd see more healer participation past 2k

which you dont

[gleaming pawn]

This would get Rogues nerfed even more

[proven field]

Wait

I have the perfect answer

[spring bough]

Probably but what doesn’t 🤷‍♂️

[subtle warren]

@severe helm so you're telling m that you don't agree that there's a skill threshold where people become "comfortable" and are more likely to stick with it?

A retention point if you will

Again man, I'm asking you to pretend it was literally your job to get the MAX number of people playing arena at what we currently consider "2200 skill"

[proven field]

All ranged players are actually in the healer pool but they don’t know - you swap their UI so damage done is actually converted to healing done and they don’t know until the rounds are over. They think they are bursting and CCing etc. but it’s actually their own team they are fighting and to everyone else it shows as healing

[severe helm]

correct I dont agree

[subtle warren]

i mean

thats insane

Nvm

[proven field]

It’s not insane, fistweaver in a way does that already

[severe helm]

the thing is the bot solution requires more resources and has less payoff with m ore potential side effects than the long list of other solutions I proposed

theres just no reason to pursue bots until all the other things are implemented

theres 100 other improvements to get through first

[subtle warren]

100?

[severe helm]

at least

[proven field]

Just remove healer-specific specs in PvP - healers could queue the mode, maybe they heal, maybe they dps

[subtle warren]

I'd argue there are a few I'd prio more

and that's it

[severe helm]

I mean Ive shown you why thats wrong

[subtle warren]

healer fixes + incentives being one of them

[severe helm]

overhaul the rating system

improve the role itself

[spring bough]

Maybe u get a healer maybe u don’t. Sounds like a fun time

[subtle warren]

you're missing the point

[severe helm]

and within "incentives" theres so many ways to implement that

[proven field]

Read the resT of my post though

[subtle warren]

wow arena doesn't suffer from a number or rating problem

[severe helm]

it does

[subtle warren]

it suffers from playablity

[severe helm]

I disagree

[subtle warren]

for the masses, and specifcally for healers

[spring bough]

As long as tanks are excluded I’m good with it lol

[proven field]

You’d always get a healer you just wouldn’t know if it was actually a holy priest or a destro lock put into healer mode

[subtle warren]

To outsiders arena looks like an impossible mountain to climb

[severe helm]

so you want to make arena easier or

thats the whole blizz approach with rotations

[proven field]

Everyone gets to play what they like, the shuffle engine controls what’s damage and healing

[subtle warren]

I want to add a more consistent + smooth introduction at lower ratings

ramp people up

[severe helm]

then make a bot mode

[subtle warren]

best way to get good would be to play over and over with relatively equal healers

Okay compromise that that at first

[severe helm]

make arena skirms have bots

[sharp sierra]

I’d rather want to know what the exact system is for queing you with other specs

[subtle warren]

full bot arena, I totally support that

[severe helm]

thats a reasonable solution

[subtle warren]

im not unreasonable

[severe helm]

idk ive never tried it

do people play it? lol

[subtle warren]

is it arena?

[proven field]

The bots are ruthless in TG

[spring bough]

They should make a rated version of this

[severe helm]

a lot of good thats doing then hahahaha

[subtle warren]

I mean weve never heard of it so its not excactly marketed well

[outer sky]

Thats called m+

[proven field]

PvP Delves - I’m calling it

[severe helm]

pve delves

you mean

[spring bough]

Easiest 3k rating alive

[severe helm]

I think youre using the word pvp wrong

[proven field]

You’d still play against a human but you’d both have old man brann as your partners

[subtle warren]

is it 3v3 arena style?

[spring bough]

PvB new game mode

[severe helm]

is your goal to like complete the delve faster or

[proven field]

Basically dueling with sidekicks

[severe helm]

so this is like arc raiders

but with wow characters

[proven field]

Or Fortnite when you buy recruits

[subtle warren]

still its a serpate thing, people dont feel like they're part of arena

[proven field]

Actually for a 2v2 shuffle queue, solo + sidekicks could be ok

You could customize your partner build, get partner xmog

[outer sky]

I mean to be fair, AI would probably do a better job than most actual healers up to like 2.2k most seasons. If you just program it to say something snarky every time somebody dies without pressing a defensive, would anyone even be able to tell the difference?

[severe helm]

youd only know once you hit 2200 and the queue time quadruples

[subtle warren]

just make it so when you start shuffle it lets you know there's healer bots possible.
Every 100 rating it pops up saying good job, the bots are a little smarter!!!!! you get to 2k and it says okay no more bots !!!!!! If you're interested in faster queues try earning healer tokens!!!!!

[proven field]

Proving grounds

[subtle warren]

legit affects nobody here

[severe helm]

that sounds like dystopian wow pvp

[subtle warren]

above 2k

[gusty hedge]

at that point rating is nothing but a front, same as pushing late season with inflated cr gains
skill will become non existent,
everyone at 2k fighting with bots
legend/elite 300 rating away is pure comedy

bots and rated should never go together

[severe helm]

well it affects all ratings cuz it reduces healer participation

[twin wren]

Whats the fastest way to gear an alt atm? just enough for full honor atleast

Training groounds?

[spring bough]

Blizz needs to make PVP exciting for new players and get these Que times sped up

[proven field]

All this is to save PvP - nobody pushes rating anymore so gotta be open minded if you want PvP to be here in five years

[outer sky]

I mean let's be real here guys, if anything is going to kickstart the AI uprising, its making AI heal low rated shuffle.

[subtle warren]

Okay how's this for a perfect middle ground. Right next to Solo Suffle, is Bot Shuffle. YOu can only queue as a dps, its ranked up to 2k

you can play as much as you want for practice

[spring bough]

I think that would trigger the singularity

[subtle warren]

it pulls dps out of the dps + healer normal solo queue

and gets people arena experience

[static holly]

Don't forget to pay the bot upfront to get your heals

[subtle warren]

i wish I was

[spring bough]

DW when Elon figures out how to upload consciousness to the cloud we all will be

[subtle warren]

just insanely braindead to me that nobody sees the benefits in getting people accessible reps in arena

[spring bough]

Is it time for midnight season 1 yet?

[subtle warren]

make it it's column right under solo shuffle idc. Do it with healer fixes and game will be better

no thats different

im talking, 4 dps players 2 healer bots

[spring bough]

Hopefully Que times are fast this season since they lowered elite 100 rating

[subtle warren]

truly though there's no great solution, people just dont want to heal that much

[outer sky]

Dont forget the millions of Zoomers who will be subbing to the game now that you dont need to install the Mes weakaura pack anymore

[static holly]

Why not restrict queueing PvE as long as you don't have 1800 as healer in the arena?

[gusty hedge]

let them play for experience but no rewards titles and rating

[proven field]

1750 shuffles will
Bring judgment day in a week

https://tenor.com/view/terminator-terminator-robot-looking-flex-cool-robot-gif-978532213316794273

[spring bough]

Is rival still 1800 or is that lowered too

[outer sky]

Thats all the same

Everything is the same besides elite

[spring bough]

Makes sense

[static holly]

We don't get interns to do the job. Why would they burn expensive resources

At this point every solution is good

[subtle warren]

well dont worry none of us have to worry about bots or healer incentives

[outer sky]

I actually think one other issue with the healer AI bots thing is

Ironically

If the "healer" throws

You dont have anyone to blame

I remember in the OG Guild Wars that used to drive people crazy

You'd have "heros"

Which are basically AI team members

That fill certain roles

And theyd troll sometimes

And it was just like

[static holly]

🤣

[outer sky]

"Welp game AI screwed us"

[static holly]

I like that

It's authentic

[subtle warren]

Idk I have humans throwing all the time haha

[spring bough]

I think people would implode if they realized the AI bot wasn’t the reason they lost but their skills was the reason

[outer sky]

Yeah but you can blame them and they can learn not to throw that same way

And also a human can argue for why they made the decisions they did

If you lose and the healer is AI

You'll just think "healer threw"

[static holly]

Video recap with loser of the game highlights

[outer sky]

Even if it was you

[spring bough]

It would be like COD kill cam but even better

[static holly]

An incentive to play well

But the AI aspect will most likely carry over to arenas someday. Pretty obvious

[hazy monolith]

Just make AI bots mimic real healers that are offline atm so you can’t tell if they’re real or not

[potent pivot]

Pins

[molten hedge]

Why aren’t we playing supercharger anymore? I’m assuming it’s just all in on builders but is reprimand rly better than forced induction

[potent pivot]

?

[outer sky]

Reprimand?

You mean deeper strat?

And I think sub is playing forced induction

[molten hedge]

Pretty sure the build I copied had echoing reprimand and deeper Strat

[potent pivot]

Sub is playing charger/forced

[molten hedge]

As capstones

[potent pivot]

Prolly just a mistake

[molten hedge]

Hmmm I imported it. That’s weird

I thought it was fried tbf lol

[potent pivot]

No I mean my mistake

[molten hedge]

Ohh

[potent pivot]

Prolly just clicked the wrong one in a hurry

[potent pivot]

Can u paste the import for that same build but with only supercharger swapped in

Not gonna be able to mess with the calculator for a while, on mobile

[fathom moss]

Did they do something to talents? Just logged in after update & rogue tree was reset

[lime oar]

yes they made it so u have to spend more points up top to reach the capstones. so u can only get 2 caps rather than 3 for now

[outer sky]

But you get those 3 points back at level 90 so it's only a short term pain

[wise sequoia]

The trickster sub talentents are indeed with Echooing reprimand.

Here is same spec but with Forced Induction:

CUQAByFP3pExAEG41/8+e6b8fDgZ2mBAAAAAmtxMLTjZxMzMGzAzMzMLjZZMzYbbmZwMjBMjBAAAghZYzsNjxMMWALzsNtQLzGmBYGMDA

[unique monolith]

i was wondering how much worse it got with sub rogue atm

[outer sky]

Sub is probably the least impacted by this

You lose double vanish

Which is borderline inconsequential

[twin wren]

Everyone disconnect from retail?

[unique monolith]

Yes

[sharp stone]

yes

[molten hedge]

Ty! I’m glad I’m not crazy I kept checking it and was like idk how this is better but in Trickz we trust

[potent pivot]

[twin wren]

WoW is back now, that was quick

[outer sky]

I meant to respond to this but at the time I was so sick I didnt even have the energy to. I literally own a brick and mortar gun store so if you need recommendations let me know. I basically know everything there is to know about those products

[subtle warren]

wait.... why does the pinned sub spec have shround of concealment talent?

over planned execution? is that a mistake?

or out of date?

[potent pivot]

Probably

[outer sky]

FINALLY got this to look the way I want it

[potent pivot]

Wangbar on top

You can change the bar texture in the settings

[outer sky]

huh?

[potent pivot]

Like it’s better

[outer sky]

not for me. I've always had it on the bottom

[potent pivot]

I’m going over your head

I’m saying it’s the better PRD addon

[sharp sierra]

is there anything for putting combo points on nameplates yet

[potent pivot]

Even base settings can do that afaik

[sharp sierra]

WHAT

[potent pivot]

Platynator has it too but that addon looks like horse shit ngl

I hate it

[severe helm]

WANGBAR

[subtle warren]

wait doesnt shroud not even work in arena?

why would you be taking that over planned execution, unless im missing something major?

are we trolling or something?

[strange trellis]

Referring to Shrouded in Darkness?

[subtle warren]

idk im lost

is it so you can take shadowcraft, and then you can't take planned exec?

okay that makes sense

[potent pivot]

What talent are you even talking about man

[subtle warren]

but no forced induction now? and cheat death?

[potent pivot]

Sjsbbahajanahs

[strange trellis]

Well its the only Shroud talent on the Sub side is Shrouded in Darkness and its on the upper tier of the tree so its between that or Improved Shuriken Storm... so I think youre mixing up your talents

[potent pivot]

You’re gonna make me have a seizure

[subtle warren]

I was misreading something my apologies

or like missing something in the UI

when i swapped builds

[potent pivot]

Cheat death and elusiveness is personal preference

Choose whatever one you want

[subtle warren]

the icon glow made it look like I alrady have shadowcraft, and then it was swapping planned exec for shrouded in darkness

[potent pivot]

The forced induction/echoing reprimand thing was a mistake

[subtle warren]

so naturally I was like wtf what am I missing

[potent pivot]

Which one is shrouded

[subtle warren]

it increases should of concleament speed for allies

looks like its just a filler

its either that or the shuriken storm talent

[potent pivot]

Idk I’ll be home in a min and can look

[subtle warren]

im sure neither matters

[strange trellis]

correct, its between that or Improved Shuriken Storm. Doesnt compete with Planned Execution at all

[subtle warren]

ya im just blind

[potent pivot]

Storm talent still better

[subtle warren]

im actually kind of on the cheat death side for now

[potent pivot]

I was kinda rushing putting that together

[potent pivot]

ok should be fixed completely now

[molten hedge]

if you can pre feint goes its insane

cheat kinda buggy i dont love it

[subtle warren]

you mean pre feint goes on you?

Yeah i think its stronger, I just might rock cheat for a little while because im new

sometimes I forget to press

[potent pivot]

cheat is fine

[molten hedge]

yea if new thats prob better

if you take preimptive maneuver while stunned its a big wall

[potent pivot]

especially in bursty metas/VS op shit

[sharp sierra]

@outer sky was that you playing with supa or a imposter lol

[molten hedge]

like 60% total iirc

[subtle warren]

i gotta look whcih talent that is

[potent pivot]

its the pvp talent

[subtle warren]

ohh yeah

[potent pivot]

which also does not always work

fyi

[subtle warren]

why not?

[potent pivot]

its coded very weird

[subtle warren]

so is it not worth taking?

[potent pivot]

it is

[strange trellis]

It's wording is weird. I havent noticed but can you feint while stunned?

[subtle warren]

you'd think it'd be easy to code that...

[potent pivot]

into certain comps

[subtle warren]

oh into other rogues/monk?

what else has lots of stuns

[potent pivot]

cheat only "bugs" when it can't calculate the incoming damage into it's damage reduction

so it feels bad into say, an MM meta

because of rapid fire

[subtle warren]

ohh

[hybrid sapphire]

bro they killed tellmewhen wtf

[subtle warren]

what's wrong with tellmewhen?

are you getting the error spam?

[hybrid sapphire]

it was working perfectly fine and then they patched this week and now its not doing anything at all

all of my TMWs stopped working

[subtle warren]

oh mine is working I just updated it...

[hybrid sapphire]

hmmmm lemme see then

[potent pivot]

it prolly just needs to be updated lol

[subtle warren]

update it and worst case try /console scriptErrors 1 to see if it's error out

I had to make a fix in mine to get it to stop error spamming

  _retail_/Interface/AddOns/TellMeWhen/Components/IconTypes/IconType_buffcheck/buffcheck.lua:328

  local start
  if clientHasSecrets then
      local durObj = C_UnitAuras.GetAuraDuration(unit, instance.auraInstanceID)
      -- Sometimes durObj comes out nil.
      start = durObj and durObj:GetStartTime() or 0
  else
      start = instance.expirationTime - instance.duration
  end

[sharp sierra]

do luas update like offsets?

oh oh i see it nvm

[hybrid sapphire]

GLADIUS WORKING? HUH?

also yeah i just needed to update my addons

[potent pivot]

ya

gladius by sammers now

instead of bicmex

[outer sky]

was me

I got a win on him

thankfully

for the 3-3

The idea of someone trying to impersonate me is hilarious

[hybrid sapphire]

nah tmw still isnt working in pvp. its supposed to work for buffs that are "allowed" to be tracked

[sharp sierra]

lmaoooo i was just watching his stream and scrolling through and saw youre name

[subtle warren]

ugh now I get errors from the blizz cooldown manager related to midnight essentials

non stop addon fixes haha

[static holly]

Any guides on optimizing UI etc for rogues here anywhere to find?
Not sure what add-on etc if should use. I usually play without 🤣

[potent pivot]

there's some addons in the pins, you can also type !ui in #outlaw for some more

i've just barely started working on mine, i'll prolly post it all once finished

[static holly]

Ok thx. I thought I should wait as long as possible to see what add-ons will be available and useful. Hope it's something for arena and maybe 1-2 more. I'm too lazy for this. I simply want to login and play and not start to study 10 things and setup other things.

[dense pumice]

Seems like a lot of ppl are playing trickster sub, why?

i always though ds was better

[static holly]

If I'm not wrong it was bc ds had bugs

I think it's situational and should work for 2v2 (for now)

[sharp sierra]

anything that can remove DM basically makes it so you cant reapply it the entire rest of that instance

once fixed i imagine everyone will go back to it

[potent pivot]

Idk I think trickster might be more ST damage than deathstalker now

You just don’t get the deathstalker utility nodes

[sharp sierra]

Idk i keep trying to like sub and since ive been playing a lot of outlaw i just cant get into it

hopefully with haste change the stats wont feel like a nightmare to change around

or are subs not planning on running haste

[potent pivot]

We will

Anyone not planning on it is bad

[sharp sierra]

I wonder if crate farming will still be a thing

[potent pivot]

They shouldn’t have pruned any sub abilities

They didn’t prune outlaw like at all

[sharp sierra]

yeah i really wantred to learn a lot more RMP this expac but i doubt anyone is gonna want an outlaw if we dont bring the same kind of cc

On the flip side buffing outlaw damage wont be a problem since less cc

imo

[potent pivot]

those addons might be dead

[sharp sierra]

oh fuck i didnt think about that

[static holly]

Crate farming will still be a thing and will not change at all. You still have the chest drops etc

Add-on tracker is also updated

[potent pivot]

if the addons are gone no one will do it

[static holly]

Still around a usable within beta too

Just checked.

[potent pivot]

the one i had stopped getting updated in 11.1.7

must be a newer one

[static holly]

Rdy crate only stopped bc he tried to force ppl to pay for it

Hated crate tracker is now the way to go

[potent pivot]

same addon

[static holly]

In its core yes

[sharp sierra]

yeah okay fuck this im just going back sub this damage is so fucking bad its not even funnyt

[outer sky]

Assa?

[sharp sierra]

no outlaw

i spend half the game stunned

[outer sky]

Idk which is worse tbh

[sharp sierra]

and cant do any damage

holy paladin did half my damage

joke of a spec

[outer sky]

Yeah as assa i do about the same. Roughly double the healer

And 0 burst to compensate

[sharp sierra]

gotta play boring ass sub

[potent pivot]

The outlaw guys here haven’t rly been complaining at all

[sharp sierra]

honestly its just a mage expac for me

cant get this shit to work

[static holly]

Why did the scrapped the aoe silence from assa? Still don't get the idea behind that logic

[potent pivot]

[static holly]

Fantasy wise it was my to go spec since back in the day's

[sharp sierra]

because all the casters with the same amount as cc if not more than rogues cried all day

[outer sky]

LOL theyre outlaw guys. Of course they're not complaining. Their expectations are low. Theyre used to it being dogshit lol

[sharp sierra]

so fucking heated jesus fucking christ

[outer sky]

Their preferred spec is F tier instead of D tier so now they'll start protesting lol

[outer sky]

I dont think they thought "we need to get rid of aoe silence". I think it was more like "we need to get rid of aoe bleeds" and the silence was just collateral damage

[static holly]

Hmmm

But we still have aoe bleeds with CT?

But I don't think assa will shine bc no one will stack up

[outer sky]

Yeah but thats tied to a button. Its not just naturally happening while youre doing your single target rotation

And it costs 60 energy

[static holly]

It's meant to simplify the PvE gameplay not with any intention or regards of pvp

[outer sky]

Ofc not

[static holly]

It's more like we optimize PvE and we just tune down the DMG in pvp if some is off

[outer sky]

Honestly even the PVE players are getting the cold shoulder from blizzard these days. Theyre really all inning this housing stuff

Every pillar of traditional end game content is taking a back seat

Makes me want to throw up

Couples plushie home decor bundle

Only $5!

[static holly]

It's not about the customers it's about profit first

[outer sky]

Well in theory the customers pay for what they want so those things are supposed to go hand in hand.

That doesnt seem to be playing out

[strange trellis]

Labyrinth, Prey, the usual assortment of raids and dungeons, new delves... I dont think theyre all inning on Housing as people claim. Im shocked we're getting a new Battleground even

[outer sky]

Its an epic

[strange trellis]

Its still something... when was our last BG before? BfA?

[outer sky]

No

TWW

we got one this xpac

Deephaul Ravine

[static holly]

Not only. It's also for wpvp if in not wrong with a hub/NPCs

But I didn't checked it

[strange trellis]

oooh, been away for a few xpacs and didnt realize that was this xpacs BG

[strange trellis]

correct! We'll see how it pans out

[outer sky]

The boosting discords im in are currently accepting applications for "housing boosters". People to like design houses for people for gold. Not really sure how it'll work. But the fact that its even a thing is crazy to me

[static holly]

The epic BG is just a lag show from what I saw. It's more for casuals and non-rated premade groups

I don't even started the housing introduction quest

[outer sky]

Thats every EBG. Regardless, it cant be worse than Ashran omg

[static holly]

[outer sky]

There have been a handful of times in this game ive been forced to do ashran

[static holly]

I like to grind afk honor there

[outer sky]

As melee dps

Its so bad

[static holly]

Free money

Y I know

Ashran you could just backdoor and kill the boss

But somehow they all aoe on bridge or somewhere

[strange trellis]

I cant imagine doing it on some melee like Monks, Hunters, Shamans... but Rogues is pretty easy to get in, get the kill, and get out. Death Knights have it easy, and Paladins though I havent done it myself should have little issue as well

[outer sky]

Ive done it on WW its even worse than youre imagining

Doesn't help that when I pop my cooldowns theyre over before the lag spike ends

[strange trellis]

Hahaha

[potent pivot]

this is a thing in FF14 as well. housing designers.

[strange trellis]

Yea I was thinking of that as well... I cant wait to have the copy/paste features

[potent pivot]

there are people that pay millions and millions of gold in that game for the best designers to create night clubs for them

[static holly]

Time changed. The audience wants other things

[strange trellis]

Weird that we got housing but none of the other social updates that wouldve really make it this evergreen content that people would engage with

[outer sky]

I mean, my house is crap. If I can get a good deal I'll for sure pay for someone to do it for me lol I have no shame in that

[static holly]

We have to reroll classic+ next year

[outer sky]

Aint like buying rating

[static holly]

Just a matter of time...

Wow will be a dress-up simulator with housing

[strange trellis]

Choice paralysis for me... one day Ill sit down and piece by piece start setting down furniture

lol looking as cool as you can be has always been a thing. Its why people use to get all excited or huffy over their tier sets and it wasnt always the tier bonuses

[outer sky]

Didn't blizzard say some shit recently like "we see our IP as more than an MMO"

?

If so that should strike fear into the hearts of every wow lover

That is the kiss of death

[static holly]

?

But what would change? It's still an mmo

Just with a focus on cosmetics

And mtx

[outer sky]

Idk man

But I dont have much faith in the company

In case anyone cant tell

[static holly]

I don't hope so but I see myself rerolling someday to any classic XYZ version

[strange trellis]

The bones of WoW will always exist... except maybe a good storyline if you care about that

[outer sky]

Haven't had that sine legion

Everything since then has been as ass pull

Especially shadowlands

[strange trellis]

cool idea... terribly executed

[outer sky]

Which they know which is why they dont talk about it or reference it

[strange trellis]

Im just glad they did away with the borrowed power nonsense

[sharp sierra]

swap sub did 2x the damage and 5-1

very fun

[outer sky]

Right now theyre trying to play Xal'atath off as a mysterious figure with sinister unknown motives. The truth is, they have to do that. Because they dont fucking know themselves

[strange trellis]

I wasnt convinced of Sub at first but after playing it for a couple of weeks I actually am finding it quite fun

[outer sky]

Most frustrating thing about sub is when dance runs out on the global you need to kill and you dont have another one for a few seconds lolol

Feels so bad

Happens frequently

[sharp sierra]

i press 3 buttons and do 10x the damage of outlaw

[outer sky]

But comes with the territory

[sharp sierra]

maybe i press 4

[outer sky]

Yeah and its burstier and you have infinitely more CC

[strange trellis]

LOL, well I just use... well did use Vanish to get Subterfuge to bridge the gap until Shadowdance comes back up

[sharp sierra]

insane they leave it this way

[outer sky]

Idk if the specs have ever been this far apart in viability

[sharp sierra]

i mean wasnt sub really bad the entire tww

[outer sky]

No

It was fine

Just fewer comps than assa

And harder to play

But with a fire mage or destro lock sub was really good

[sharp sierra]

sigh yeah if im wanting to finally hit 2400 ig im better off playing sub instead of outlaw, i love the rotation so much but the damage is just laughable

[strange trellis]

My only issue with Sub is that I thought they were trying to separate Stealth from damage but I feel incentivized to stealth for Subterfuge and Cheap Shot

[outer sky]

Really? I dont feel jncentivized to do that at all

Its such a minor optimization

[strange trellis]

Backstab feels so terrible though lol

[outer sky]

Yeah but your modifiers come from dance

Youre still not hitting hard just with subt

[strange trellis]

no but you are hitting harder which could be the difference between a kill or not

[outer sky]

Probably not enough to make running away for re worth it very much

I dont really go for re's anymore. At best if im running away trying to avoid damage or lining a caster, I may wait a couple extra seconds and get a re

Otherwise I just dont bother

[sharp sierra]

sub and arcane season for me

(till i get mad again)

[strange trellis]

I mean Vanish is an instant re so you dont need to run away but otheerwise I understand what you mean

[outer sky]

If nothing changes that comp will be top of the ladder and whatever is second wont even be close

Because arcane has such a short CD mass invis

Vanish for your whole team every like 30s

Guaranteed reset

With sub right now and arcanes damage

How can you lose

[sharp sierra]

even if arcane drops a bit im sure fire and sub will dominate

unless they gigabuff outlaw and sin

but idk i REALLY want to learn rmp

and each of those are like the only classes i enjoy playing

unless fistweaving ever makes a comeback lmao

[outer sky]

Idk man that piss short CD mass invis with RMP is extremely broken

It drops combat

You can re off it

[sharp sierra]

yeah supa was straight up raging earler from it

entire lobby was typing complaining

i didnt realize how short it was

[outer sky]

Yeah so traditionally the choke point for RMP is resetting after their go

That pretty much solves it

[sharp sierra]

will sub run blind nodes or stick with gouge?

[outer sky]

Hard to say

I want to say in RMP probably gouge

But im only like 60/40 on that

I only say it because gouge is good for prepping the kill target for a stun and you keep long blind which is enough healer CC for a go that doesnt DR with sheep

Short blind might be good into something like Neopolitan Ice-cream cleave or TSG that are just W keying your mage and are always stacked

[potent pivot]

damn... almost like running more ahem HASTE would be beneficial..

[outer sky]

Or more mastery so I dont need that many globals

But this is on beta

Im haste stacked

[sharp sierra]

anyone got a beta build for sub

[outer sky]

Its the same one as pre patch except now you take double vanish as a 3rd capstone, complete your trickster tree, and fill your ancient arts talents

[sharp sierra]

gotcha

[outer sky]

You just need to drop veiltouched

To get all ancient arts talents

[sharp sierra]

and just stack mastery with some haste

[outer sky]

Try and get to a 7s dance if you can

In pvp

Im at 6.9

Which is fine

After that you can add mastery

Vendor weapons are crit/vers so you'll get some crit there as well as a bit from tier piece stats

[sharp sierra]

wait damn no vigor?

[potent pivot]

cap

[outer sky]

Unnecessary

Even on pre patch

You should never feel global starved during dance

[dark kernel]

Yeah I agree with Zicore some people go tea, we do not need it

You're pretty much never going to need it prior to a dance

[molten hedge]

I’d be more inclined to take short blind on assa or outlaw bc of how little cc they have. On sub it’s unnecessary and long blind is so good

[potent pivot]

being able to go for kidney->blind->saps so often is just kinda cracked

the other two specs can't sap anywhere near as often

[molten hedge]

It is for sure but idk if ppl will let you get it off

I guess vanish would be good for that

[potent pivot]

yea but even with vanish you can only try every 2m realistically

sub can try every 30sec

[molten hedge]

Yeah zicore and mewo were saying kidney blind sap takes you out the game too long but you still get your dance uninterrupted while your teammates doing big dam.

[potent pivot]

ye it just doesn't matter ngl

sub has always been that way, doing as much cc as possible for the team

[molten hedge]

So maybe you have to dance early to stun someone bc that’s all you have besides ur kidney blind

If they try peeling you

Although your team can also cc the other 2. I get that

[molten hedge]

Or you can maybe just re too by the time it’s time to sap

[vale steppe]

I agree, im a huge tea fan and i will admit, we dont need tea, not right now atleast.

[dark kernel]

If y'all didn't see this

Its a cocksicle btw

Just headsup

[grave basin]

Udder perfection

[jolly sierra]

xal'atoes strikes again

[dark kernel]

Wrong clipboard link lmao

I had a video of it that was funny

[jolly sierra]

XD

[spring bough]

…….

Soft but frozen make it make sense

[gleaming sentinel]

Man I have so many things to say about this but I ain’t getting canceled

[dark kernel]

@gleaming sentinel @spring bough https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77X9gOaRTis

[spring bough]

There’s absolutely no way this is real

[gleaming sentinel]

Suck the popsicle. Ride the butterfly. Build the dollhouse. Stop pvping

[dark kernel]

I just bought it last night

Hahahaha

[dark kernel]

1984

[spring bough]

I don’t even want to know ur plans with that……..

[dark kernel]

Honestly? I just REALLY like Trolli gummy worms

And they are fun to eat cold so I thought I'd give it a try

[spring bough]

“Eat” yeah okay

[dark kernel]

https://tenor.com/view/ig-live-whackwurld-6uava-whackwurid-ig-live-water-gif-21841939

[spring bough]

[stoic spruce]

It's real

[spring bough]

The most diabolical thing they could have done 🤦‍♂️

[stoic spruce]

How is it

[dark kernel]

I actually am sad and I forgot to eat it last night

[stoic spruce]

LMAOO

U 2 funee

[dark kernel]

Baby life man.

[proven field]

does Poison Bomb not show up in details/wowcrapometer?

[proven field]

actually, I don't even want 4P for assa do I - feels like it steals a ton of mastery (sorry only really play outlaw)

[gusty hedge]

whats the ingame content u get for buying ?

[dark kernel]

I still don't know actually LOL

I wonder if it's the same pet thing from the gummy worms promo last year?

[severe helm]

LOOOOOOOOOOOL

[gusty hedge]

oh maybe then, that would suck lol but i havent gotten it so its a w i guess

[spring bough]

A tmog strap on belt

[gusty hedge]

[dark kernel]

If it was a belt in general that would be super freaking funny

[mild lynx]

im super dissappointed bliz showed no love to sub pvp talents. Like thiefs bargin is incredibly bad : 10% damage nerf everytime you feint, which is like 50% of the game...

Also wtf is the point of distracting mirage - like actually, why?

how many classes have a pvp talent that nerfs your damage by 10% for like 30-50% of the match lol

control is king gives you SND and some energy, yet all rogues have 100% SND uptime natively cause its tied to evis, so its pointless

[sharp sierra]

It’s like this for lots of classes lmao

Just enjoy your broken damage

[mild lynx]

we actually just got nerfed and now require a damage buff and shadowy duel back

[dark kernel]

I mean we pretty much have four maybe five PVP talents we're going to be using anyway so yeah, little illusion of choice

We at least have what we need though and that's the most important thing really

[sharp sierra]

You’re right and while they are at it they should give back 33% coin damage to FB for sin and outlaw

[outer sky]

Only sub pvp talents worth taking are bomb, feint, and disarm. If I dont need disarm I usually take control is king but I swear I could just not run a 3rd pvp talent at all and not be able to tell the difference

[wise sequoia]

Illusion of choice is real for 99% of our build …

Class talents are so plentiful that we can take everything that matters from the rogue tree and most things that don’t matter as well - only choice at level 90 is which insignificant talent we avoid. Only 3 of the buttom talents are good, and we take all 3!

Subtlety talents are the same … avoid all AOE damage and you get the optimal layout. Only real choice is between 8% shadow damage or 10% SS damage … which is a tiny difference either way.

Deathstalker is broken, so trickster it is. Only choicenode is whether to play flickerstrike.

Gear? We all run same embellishments and enchants. Hit the haste breakpoint and put everything else in vers/mastery.

Honestly choosing which of the decent pvp talents to avoid is the most impactful choice for your entire build!

[outer sky]

Meanwhile ret is complaining they have too many mandatory pvp talents and cant choose

[wise sequoia]

This should be the goal of every talent tree … having several very different and great options - but you cant have them all!

I really like rdruid/mistweaver talents for that reason.

[outer sky]

I mean some of ours are just laughably bad

Dagger in the dark not working with shadow dance is such an L

[dark kernel]

Yeah you're right but some of this is just bugs and will be fixed. Though I will say I just don't like deathstalker right now for sure

I legitimately made a request to an actual Blizzard dev to see if they will change coup to fit in our actual global so fingers crossed

[wise sequoia]

As a noob to the class its really annoying that its randomly 0.2s longer for no reason … it males it impossible to go

CS -> finisher -> SS -> finisher -> CS

Without leaving a small gap for the enemy to use an ability