pvp

[severe helm]

like outlaw DH or lumberjack cleave or something

but in any setup comp I just cant see it being worth it imo

[outer sky]

Idk i think its situational and dependant on numbers tuning. But you can also use it on the enemy dps on their go

[severe helm]

yeah if it was a standalone thing where you werent giving up something else I would think its stronger

but giving up big blind is kinda hard

you might not be able to force cds ever haha

[outer sky]

I think giving up gouge feels worse

[wise sequoia]

100% for 3s, 30% for 6s, 0% for 7s ... average reduction of 30% over 16s 😛

But no ... not 50

[severe helm]

that too!

you lose gouge AND long blind

I just dont see it being worth

might be nice in solo shuffle when dampening goes up quick

and people cant be coordinated

so you can just throw it out either to save teammates or to just put pressure in damp

[molten hedge]

Where are you reading this???

[severe helm]

that would make some sense

[outer sky]

Thats what I was saying here. Like everyone is saying its broken and needs a nerf for sure but idk you lose a lot for it

[severe helm]

100% for 3s is the healer being cced

30% for 6s is blackjack

[molten hedge]

Sorcerer

[severe helm]

I absolutely dont think its broken thats silly imo

how much shorter did short blind get anyway

[wise sequoia]

For outlaw trickster the blind CC gets cut to 16s with airborne irritant. The pvp duration of blind in this case is 3s with a 6s undispellable blackjack debuff.

[severe helm]

it was like 30-40s in tww right?

[outer sky]

22s as sub 16s as outlaw

Think 24s as assa

[severe helm]

yeah my take is that itll be a meme talent that is taken in lower ratings/solo shuffle

but if outlaw is just weak overall and cant actually do setups anyway people might just try to play it as a healer rundown spec maybe

then youd prob take it

[outer sky]

@molten hedge made a good point though about how in RMP gouge DRs with sheep and you can use the short blind to set up for a sheep when DB isnt available or the mage cant get close enough for whatever reason

[molten hedge]

Yeah it’s great

Against priests specifically so they can’t death

[severe helm]

I think rmp will be exclusively sub and they wont have that problem

gouge was only ever a setup on the kill target

which I think sub wont want to give up

its so the kill target cnat pre your go

sub has infinite cc with dance they have no reason to take short blind

sub rmp is probably going to be so fucking broken lol

[outer sky]

You could use short blind the same way on the kill target though and it has a shorter CD

[severe helm]

but again then you lose long blind

[outer sky]

True

[severe helm]

and gouge is a 25s cd

which is the stun dr anyway

so it doesnt need to be shorter

[outer sky]

Stun dr is 16s?

[severe helm]

when the stun ends

so kidney + 16s

also kidney is a 30s cd still

afaik

[outer sky]

It is but with how much uptime we have on dance idk if it even matters

Just cheap shot

[severe helm]

have to remember youll still be doing setups around your teammates cds/other drs

[outer sky]

Ye true

[severe helm]

I doubt sub rmp will start to do a go every 16s

your teammates wont have stuff for it so itll just do nothing rather save drs for stops in between your setups

but yeah idk we'll see how it plays out but im leaning towards it not being nearly as op as people think

[outer sky]

But i definitely agree short blind isnt ass busted like people say it is right now

[hybrid sapphire]

the new crimson tempest is generating hella combo pts idk

i guess maybe its only good in bgs

cheap shot having a cd now... kms

[outer sky]

Yeah its bad.

Assa and outlaw dont feel like rogues anymore

But sub has more CC than ever

[hybrid sapphire]

...wtf

[true warren]

Just checked murlok. Apparently the majority of Subs is playing Trickster now? Why's that? And in overall Stats it's only 6% haste?

[potent pivot]

Majority of characters on murlok aren’t even being played prolly

Not exactly a great source of information until some weeks into a new season

Deathstalker is pretty much dead now though

[hybrid sapphire]

has anyone played w this? whats it like? i cant prompt it

[outer sky]

It puts DRs next to your enemy arena frames

[hybrid sapphire]

ah figures. The mega tiny stun tracker next to the nameplates is so useless...

[outer sky]

Get miniCC

The addon

[hybrid sapphire]

if an addon works now is it safe to assume itll work in midnight?\

[outer sky]

Pretty much

[hybrid sapphire]

aight

[outer sky]

Blizzard has been relaxing the rules

Since this "crackdown"

[sharp sierra]

Yeah and since it’s AOE it feels good to shut down an entire team of melee for fun every 16 secs

Not to mention ranged stun on anything that can’t be kicked normally is pretty cool against hunters

Not like outlaw has any actual goes anyways lmao

[true warren]

i think top 50 characters from s3 won't show up until they play a game. that would make sense because in s3 it was 50/50 deathstalker and now it's 35 trickster

[hybrid sapphire]

did they ban timer text on icons wtf

[true warren]

i haven't logged in in two weeks but i remeber that i managed to make timer text appear somehow. i just can't tell you if it was a blizz native setting or from an addon. if it was from an addon it was probably from better blizz frames

[potent pivot]

No idea I just know most people have been playing beta mainly

[outer sky]

No its in the base ui

In your options panel

"Show numbers for cooldowns" or something

[hybrid sapphire]

mashallah thank you king

[true warren]

Can you make the text bigger already?

[outer sky]

No, that would be an unfair advantage.

[true warren]

Same with not being able to change DR symbols

[outer sky]

You can do that if you go into the interface folder and fuck with the naming of things. I did it. I got kidney for stun, lock fear for disorient, and sheep for incapped

[hybrid sapphire]

bro this shit does not work

[outer sky]

Yeah I havent even messed around with that

[true warren]

native or sArena?

[outer sky]

Native

[true warren]

2 weeks ago native DR tracker wasn't working for me. i'll be back home in 1 weeks lets see if all of the buggs i had are patched

[outer sky]

Join this discord, go to the "sarena reloaded" channel and check the pins. The instructions are all in there

https://discord.gg/kCG9VnEp5

[true warren]

thanks a lot

[molten hedge]

is that my pin still in there

[outer sky]

Idk someone's is

[molten hedge]

it is mines

W

[lone jasper]

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/1AXSWcBuBU/?mibextid=wwXIfr

😂😂

[mighty berry]

Hey yall, just getting back into pvp and messing around BGs - are healers absolutely insane right now?

feels like they just chain hit 10%-100% themselves on repeat

[gusty hedge]

prepatch/stat squish. no real balance atm

[molten hedge]

MW has insane throughput rn its op

On prepatch at least

[proven field]

so there is zero reason to play outlaw while sub exists

[spring bough]

Not even for funsies?

[proven field]

im trying, not much fun lol

[spring bough]

😭

[proven field]

i want to like it, but sub just fucking trashes me

it would appear... that some actually can challenge the brotherhood

(mind you I am rusty and mid-tier, but man... they can't seem to get the feast/famine side of outlaw to work... sometimes it feels like you straight pump damage and every button and bell is whirling.. then sometimes.... cheap shot into... two limp sinister strikes)

[molten hedge]

has anyone found out how i can get arena 123 on nameplates? i use Platynator

[spring bough]

I think arena core can do it and show it with platynator but everyone prob using sarena lol

[molten hedge]

yea im using sarena as well

[sharp sierra]

Same boat, absolutely loving the rotation and gameplay but the damage is just pissing me off the more I swap back to sub. Not a great player either but idk if I can stick with it

Blinding hunters from miles away every time they try to do a big hit every 16 seconds though…that’s beautiful 🤣

[ocean thunder]

Frankly, I have paused my sub until a couple of days before expansion, i am going to wait for tuning and decide in the end assa/sub but most likely assa and deal wih whatever abonimation they created

[subtle warren]

so wait, is there no way to track drs on a target outside of arena right now?

[wise sequoia]

experimentally it would appear that https://www.reddit.com/r/worldofpvp/comments/1qy8xgr/both_dr_and_cc_tracking_on_enemy_nameplates_in/ is making progress

[subtle warren]

oh wow awesome, thanks, going to check it out

although i see a screenshot in the Images that says "waiting for combat to end" so it might be waiting to get out of combat to pull drs. makling it useless for a lot of classes

That person also committed their local claude settings file haha

[wise sequoia]

During subterfuge, is it impossible to:
Cheap shot -> Eviscerate -> Shadowstrike -> Eviscerate -> Shadowstrike ?
Shadowstrike -> Eviscerate -> Cheap Shot -> Eviscerate -> Shadowstrike works fine.

[gusty hedge]

the rotation is the rotation we used when adr was down last season and before its shit

[gleaming sentinel]

Idk I’m fucking people up tbh

[spring bough]

I’m blasting shuffles too lol

Some games just train a healer and they fold lol

[unique garnet]

I just had a warlock crash out on me on the enemy team by messaging me to uninstall after a bg , im playing outlaw dude is mad

[gleaming sentinel]

The short blind is really good

[spring bough]

I’m gonna pray they don’t do a PvP patch note about it lol

[unique garnet]

Is it just me or I can't tell what feels better in PvP Trickster or Fatebound as Outlaw

[spring bough]

Both feel good

I like fatebound cause I don’t need KS lol

[wise sequoia]

Can distract be used to interrupt casts; like throwing it behind destro lock casting Chaos Bolt?

Are there any other uses for it?

[molten hedge]

Each global is a second. Cheap shot is 4 seconds so u only get like 3 globals before the recheap

[molten hedge]

It’s only useable out of combat

[wise sequoia]

fake news? I can use it in combat!

[proven field]

Any tips? How’s BGB?

[molten hedge]

It does nothing

In combat

[wise sequoia]

ahh - oki

[molten hedge]

It’s fine to use in openers. I’ve gotten Pres to root or blink backwards or a DH fel rush to the opposite direction. But it’s usually just better to sap or step sap imo

[gleaming sentinel]

I would do some dungeons tbh, get used to the rotation. Use that short blind talent. I dropped killing spree for double ace and just kinda do the rotation. I also play double vanish

[unique garnet]

i have prep on my old ghostly strike button, and i keep fat fingering prep while poping Rush

[proven field]

How do you find group fights? Rotation im pretty comfortable with (although I didn’t hate the ambush vanish style either - feels more like real combat), but feel squishy and very susceptible to CC (eg open CA now, roll into kidney but they are mashing CC the moment that’s up and my first ten seconds aren’t really bursty)

[gleaming sentinel]

You’re not really a group team fight class. You can try isolating a healer or caster though. Between vanish heal + vial + feint and the blind + black jack you can live pretty well. But I generally just leave if i start getting focused and do the objective

[proven field]

Ok good to know; I was thinking same thing and maybe just rusty… not winning as many 1v1s on nodes etc either (combat always feels best to me when you have pocket heals letting you ramp)

[unique garnet]

Is it bad i keep thinking this meme when i see sub rouges in Skrimishes

[dark moon]

there are only so many classes in the game tho

😄

[strange trellis]

And I feel like they butchered Assassination so most Assa rogues went sub also

[agile kite]

Rogue is least played class in TWW besides evokes

Evoker

Rogue needed this

[dark moon]

tell him, tell him

let him know

[strange trellis]

Arent we just barely over Evoker? lol

[dark moon]

dont know, but its dire

hopefully sick rework in last titan or the next saga

or in the next 10 years or something

or at least in this century

something.

[strange trellis]

Needs to lean into the shadow or poison/bleed sfx more. I get we're a stealthy class but at least make our attacks looks cool visually

Sub isnt bad but its a little hard to see its flashy toys compare to other classes

Unless Im blind and it exists I would love to see something like putting a bleed on a target causes blood splatters to emit from your target

[potent pivot]

We haven’t even played with the rework we just got

[potent pivot]

It’s just tuning/prepatch

[strange trellis]

I didnt think they felt all that great on PTR either... the Apex talent feels like a letdown in practice

[potent pivot]

Yeah but the beta is just that, a beta

I think assa is looking good besides like 2 or 3 pain points

Design wise

[strange trellis]

Its also not just about numbers. Garrote into Rupture got you a couple of targets with bleeds fairly easily in PvP, now adding Crimson Tempest and most people are already spread apart before the spread can actually begin

Honestly the AoE bleed is my biggest hiccup with the spec atm

[potent pivot]

So don’t run CT

Assa isn’t going to be an aoe rot spec in midnight

[strange trellis]

Im not, I went sub for now lol

[quick crypt]

KS not worth anymore?

[potent pivot]

They’ve put way more emphasis on ST/envenom

[spring bough]

Need it for trickster 100% but with fatebound can move it and not lose much if any dps

[strange trellis]

I guess I just personally dislike the direction they went with it shrug

[potent pivot]

Understandable

This is what I’ve wanted since they made assa a melee aff lock

[strange trellis]

Im going to miss diving in on Epic BGs and taking out three targets as they try and run to the backlines lol

[outer sky]

They need to do something about the gutted CC kit

Like it cannot stay this way

[strange trellis]

I think its suppose to be more damage but tuning needs to come first

[outer sky]

Damage tuning doesn't change the fact that it plays like a leather warrior

I don't want the only reason to play assa/outlaw over a warrior to be numbers tuning

[quick crypt]

How does outlaw stands defensive wise? Is it good? Does it lack the dps only or what are the flaws that everyone rates it B or C tier?

[strange trellis]

I mean you could play as a Leather Warrior if you want but ultimately Rogues have always been about the quick kills and then dipping

[outer sky]

Yeah you get in when you can CC and out when you cant. Now we have no CC lol

[strange trellis]

Youre not too offbase though... I think the main thing that makes Rogue still a Rogue is Stealth.... which several other classes have as well

[dark moon]

stealth is woopty-doo atm, no?

[strange trellis]

I mean we had the capability of quick kills without CC its just CC made it much easier

[potent pivot]

Ignoring tier lists will instantly increase your enjoyment of the game by 10x

[outer sky]

My point being, why would you play a rogue that has to get in and out of the fight vs a warrior that can stay in the fight if the CC kits are equal?

[strange trellis]

Playstyle mostly

[outer sky]

Playstyle?

[quick crypt]

I am mostly ignoring them, but I am not playing the game rn so they’re the only info I get when it comes to pvp 😄

[outer sky]

Who would prefer to be squishier and have to run away

[strange trellis]

Like if you like the toe to toe style and CC is what made you stay with Rogue then yea you might want to try out Warrior instead going into the future

[outer sky]

I think CC made the hit and run style playable. Otherwise its just a warrior with less uptime

[strange trellis]

Its a valid line of thought. I do like having Vanish though... a lot personally lol

[outer sky]

The fact that its even possible as assa and outlaw right now to Vanish and not be able to cheap is one of the biggest L's the devs have forced on us

[potent pivot]

Lol

If you do that to yourself it’s your fault ngl

[strange trellis]

I think its meant to be mostly a defensive tool now... I dont think they completely succeeded at that though

[outer sky]

Yeah to some extent but like why is that even a thing

Vanish should always let you cheap

[spring bough]

havent really noticed a diff at all versus TWW. still feels tanky as ever

[strange trellis]

I just wish they kept Indiscriminate Carnage (or baked it in) and gave us the new Crimson Tempest lol

[outer sky]

The new CT is one of the worst designed abilities this game has ever seen

[strange trellis]

Its great for the reasons it was made... it was not worth losing Indiscriminate Carnage over

[outer sky]

60 energy, so after I use it i can go make a cup of coffee while I wait for my buttons buttons to light back up again. It copies bleeds to trivial pets, and we lost an actually really good button (OG tempest) for it

[strange trellis]

I hate the fact it goes on pets, right now Im lucky I can get it on regular players but old Crimson Tempest was just okay... new one if you can land it properly actually has a chance to do some real damage... theres just two major issues with it. High energy cost and terrible range

[outer sky]

Old tempest was insane wym

That shit would be like 15% of my damage a lot of games

And it gave a lethal dose stack

And contributed towards sudden demise

[strange trellis]

Hm... not saying youre right or wrong and we cant go back and test it on the dummies but I feel like garrote and rupture with deathmark is what procced sudden demise and CT was a little bonus

[potent pivot]

?

[outer sky]

?

[potent pivot]

It’s not lol

[outer sky]

Its in the running

[potent pivot]

Even has good smart targeting

[outer sky]

Really cuz mine seems to prio pets

[potent pivot]

You just don’t like the cost I get that part but nah

[outer sky]

I dont like losing OG tempest for it, IC for it, and it being 60 energy

[potent pivot]

I don’t think you know what smart targeting is

[outer sky]

🤦🏻‍♂️

[strange trellis]

And the range of it... 10 yards feels way too short

[outer sky]

I think thats the same as old tempest

[strange trellis]

yea but old one would put it on the target you were focused on as well

[outer sky]

Yeah it put it on everything it hit

[strange trellis]

so even if you missed the others not as big of a deal... missing with the new one feels like a total whiff

[outer sky]

Yeah especially for 60 energy

[potent pivot]

?

Do you or

[outer sky]

Yes I know what smart targeting is

Zzz

[potent pivot]

The fact that it even reapplies on whatever target has the oldest bleeds is kinda insane

When it comes to the actual design of the ability I think it’s fire

[sharp sierra]

....you mean i have to think for myself?

[lilac raptor]

Make it 50 energy 🙂

Am I supposed to feel energy starved as assassination rogue

[potent pivot]

Ye

Energy management is going to be a thing again in midnight

[potent pivot]

60 might not even feel bad once they fix venemous wounds

[potent pivot]

😱

[keen canopy]

alright i stopped looking at tier lists and started looking at the damage meter in the race to world first streams and i just play whatever is at the top there

[potent pivot]

Lool

[outer sky]

Dont worry they buffed auto attack damage by 10% so now you dont need energy to slam the meters 😂

[lilac raptor]

Is the energy gain not working for multi targets

[potent pivot]

Not properly atm

Wouldn’t run CT rn

[lilac raptor]

Thank you for letting me know!

[stoic spruce]

Sting needs to comeback as a pvp talent

For outlaw

[spring bough]

And add disorient on it too 🔥

Make AoE blind even better lmao

[stoic spruce]

What??

No baf

Bad

You're just asking for it's removal

[gleaming sentinel]

C tier = Coolest

[stoic spruce]

[proven field]

FDK and Outlaw just addicted to sucking

Ele in the corner watching and slow stroking

[sharp sierra]

fire above arcane lol

WW higher than sub and uhdk lol

outlaw perfect placement

actually if they brought back DF fistweaving id drop dps and go back to mw lol

[potent pivot]

beta is quite diff than live

what i've seen of it so far does not look good

like across the board

100% dampening games 💀

[stoic spruce]

Outlaw at its worst was one of the best specs in the game

Post midnight idk

Lowkey looking bleak lol

I can't believe sub came out the winner again

Well I can but I hate that it happened again

[proven field]

sub is only real rogue toolkit now.. it's was over-built unfortunately

[stoic spruce]

2 charges on CS on top of shadow dance

YOU GOTTA BE FISTING ME

Relatively speaking to the other specs, Sub got omega buffed with this BS

I was about to doom more but my back started hurting so I'm gonna call this a sign

[sharp sierra]

Is it just damage tuning that would mostly fix it? Because for the most part like I keep parroting myself the rotation is a fucking blast even if the BTE procs feel low. I’m keeping up in overall damage it just feels like those moments where I need to secure the kill it’s a gamble

[stoic spruce]

Damage can't really make up for the toolkit loss of this magnitude unless our damage was super cranked. Which I wouldn't be opposed to.

[sharp sierra]

[stoic spruce]

(Outlaw dmg isn't super cranked)

We have a better chance of everything getting nerfed than we do buffed

I'm still gonna gun down my ops though, fugg sub

[sharp sierra]

Yeah no matter how much I keep trying out sub I keep swapping back to outlaw

And for a alt-a-holic like me since I first played the game this is the first time I’ve had this much fun lmao

[stoic spruce]

Used to always be like this

And then DF happened

[vocal surge]

Imagine when Outlaw gets buffed

[stoic spruce]

It'll happen eventually, and when it does it'll be glorious

[sharp sierra]

Outlaw tank soon don’t worry

[vocal surge]

Blizzard's spitting our face with this nerf still active

[lime oar]

will not re-sub if it stays the way it is that’s for sure

[stoic spruce]

Don't remind me...

[livid cipher]

hm thats weird

evasion isnt there

[stoic spruce]

You gotta talent into it ya goof

[severe helm]

Isn't the bte crit damage nerf still active too

[stoic spruce]

Imp bte?

That's still nerfed

Everything else not yet

[stoic spruce]

75% effective

[vocal surge]

Ye

[vocal surge]

The difference between the 2 thou is that having BTE crit dmg nerfed prevents us from potentially 1 tapping people

assuming extreme RNG on Fatebound

but the nerf to Restless Blades is wack thou

when our mobility and offensive is tied to it

[stoic spruce]

Notice how I said not yet?

They're gonna nerf our dmg buff from bte the moment our dmg is good

[spring bough]

why is brawlers guild so easy right now lol

god i love whacked scaling lol

less than 20 days till early release and details still bugged/crashes my game lol

[stoic spruce]

I'm thinking about getting green gear for a challenge ngl

[spring bough]

fresh toon just pvp gear and killed the first boss before the 4 adds turned up lol

[vocal surge]

Turned on the +200% haste buff?

[spring bough]

no?? whats that lmao

telling me this can be even easierr??

[vocal surge]

Ye

You can combine that with Swift Slasher

And spec related perks to attack speed

[spring bough]

so where do i get this haste buff

[vocal surge]

Challenge broker lady

Next to brawler to queue

[final anvil]

Hey guys how is dance best used for sub? Whenever stun dr’s are ready pretty much?

[spring bough]

whats the dialogue i gotta use

[vocal surge]

I can win with my fists

[spring bough]

cool all i can do is pistol and BTE lmao

[vocal surge]

just slice and dice

and you win

[spring bough]

if i do all these dialogues and win looks like you get a title from an achievement

[vocal surge]

Brawl Star

I've done them all lol

[gleaming sentinel]

need to finsih those now that i dont ahve to worry about vanish bugging half the fights lol

[spring bough]

its easy as hell right now lol

doing it in between solo shuffle que and timewalk que

why is there a t rex on a a rocket board... lol

oh with a cannon too lol

[vocal surge]

lol

last boss for Rank 8

[spring bough]

looks fun lol

[vocal surge]

@spring bough

I spend more time waiting for the RP to finish than fighting bosses lol

[spring bough]

lol

[vocal surge]

didn't realize I canceled out my slice and dice there lol

[spring bough]

how does a paladin lose to the first boss lol

[vocal surge]

Oh no

Van

I got unwanted attention

https://tenor.com/view/to-the-depths-with-you-down-drag-down-cat-to-the-depots-with-you-cat-gif-10071088729691691409

[severe helm]

Lol we were never ever going to one tap people, they nerfed all ability damage by like 30% too. Our autos are our top damage

[gleaming sentinel]

df / tww design was coherent. assa the bleed spec, sub the burst spec and outlaw the sustain control spec

[vocal surge]

S3 W1, this was a 1 shot xD. 1 more coin was flipped but didn't hit due to overkill

Our 1 shot potential's there depending on tuning

in Midnight

and RNG

[severe helm]

Bro there's no bte in that log lol

[vocal surge]

For Midnight, BTE can be stacked with
+60% Damage from Zero In
x3 Damage from Improved BTE
27% - +54% Damage from Head Coins (more technically with good RNG)
+4% Agility Lucky Coin
+42.8% Effectiveness (Supercharger, +3 combo points)
+5% from Delivered Doom
x1.2 Damage from Adrenaline Rush (Menacing Rush)

[severe helm]

60% damage affects everything not just bte

[vocal surge]

Zero-In

not Between the Eyes buff

[severe helm]

Idk how you're honestly attempting to defend how hard bte hits in midnight

[severe helm]

Show me it hitting hard

That tooltip is wrong too lol crits don't do 4x damage

[vocal surge]

x3 =/= 400% damage

x3 = 300%

[severe helm]

Read the tooltip

It says 4 times normal damage

It does not do that

[vocal surge]

I thought you were saying from the list

[severe helm]

Also you'll never have high zero in stacks and high bte stacks at the same time

It's not possible

Cuz bte consumes it

[vocal surge]

BTE Stacks aren't in the list?

[severe helm]

Again you can try to show how hard bte will hit

I'll believe it when I see it haha

Pre nerfing the spec after reworking it to be so weak is insane shit

They definitely just forgot

[gusty hedge]

tww s3 tier set was pretty much as close as law will get to a one shot/Burst
p.s. Coin flips but no bte.
Would like to bte do some actual damage without the rng ramp(if blizzard will allow it)

[spring bough]

these brawlers guild fights too funny

enter fight, roll jackpot, kill boss and still have the buff when i get out lol

[sharp bough]

ma friend i hope you really understand how improved bte dmg works and how bad zero in is trying to work with itself

[spring bough]

got onto a brawlers guild layer where its just me lol

instant ques

[dark moon]

happened to me before the prepatch

was done instant even with the hidden achiev

[final anvil]

does disarm work on anything vs casters?

[potent pivot]

Not really no

Just hunter

[spring bough]

They should make it disarm spells

[wise sequoia]

Doesnt disarm remove their weapon stats? thats like 10-15% reduced throughput?

[sharp bough]

i don't think it works like that

but i recall back in the time warrior's disarm reduced beasts dmg by some %

[potent pivot]

It does iirc

[potent pivot]

Wouldn’t be worth running tho

[quick crypt]

I am a little forsaken fetishist myself. How big of a mistake will I do choosing an undead over orc for rogue?

[agile kite]

Undead looks cool as fuck

No mistake

[gusty hedge]

https://tenor.com/view/why-not-both-why-not-take-both-gif-11478682

[lime oar]

wassup with assa on beta?

saw supatease get killed pretty fast by one

actually seemed kind of not trash

[potent pivot]

[lime oar]

yeah

uhhh it was actually really slow

so bad

[sharp sierra]

After defeating a skin wearer you can eat them

It’s pretty obvious you made the right choice

[final anvil]

In 2s, as sub, when is it a good idea to try to kill healer, vs sticking on the dps and ccing healer

[vale steppe]

Assa OP now?!

[potent pivot]

No

[vale steppe]

Aww

[fathom moss]

160% mastery sub rogue is absolutely disgusting

Taking 2 set for more crafted, extra belt socket, +21 stat ring enchants, Eng helm & bracers & when Earthen writ procs its 182%…..

Can kill in just dance or pop everything & kill in 1 cheapshot

[dark moon]

160? Prepatch or beta

[glad zinc]

i think mastery is capped at 126%

https://www.wowhead.com/guide/diminishing-returns-on-secondary-stats-in-world-of-warcraft

[dark moon]

Isn't that only from gear tho

[outer sky]

Yes

[hollow yoke]

no but outlaw is op trust

[vale steppe]

Outlaw can be as OP as it want, i ain’t playing it

[hollow yoke]

what does mans have

against outlaw

smh

[stoic spruce]

He has bad taste is all

Nothing new here

[hollow yoke]

i always forget that people can have such a bad taste

[vale steppe]

Lmao

[hollow yoke]

oh also that was a joke

outlaw is like

the worst class in 3s

with aff lock

[vale steppe]

Oof

[hollow yoke]

fuck you and your

meta sub

[vale steppe]

Sub is life

Assa is kinda fun too tho

And I wouldn’t mind assa meta

[hollow yoke]

id rather play assa

than sub

hell may take me the moment i start playing sub

coz i know ive already lost myself

at that point

[vale steppe]

Not me, but assa is still fun, I don’t think outlaw is fun

[hollow yoke]

whats not fun about gambling

what are you gay

[vale steppe]

😂

Nah

[hollow yoke]

youve never felt 3 jackpots in a row

have you

[stoic spruce]

Oh nvm

[hollow yoke]

Wdym

[stoic spruce]

I didn't know we were joking

[ocean thunder]

Hey can someone share sub rotation? I have been dodging sub/outlaw for ages now, but i guess its about time..

[outer sky]

You build combo points with backstab or shadow strike and then spend them on eviscerates unless secret technique is available then you spend on that

Thats literally it

[ocean thunder]

wait, i thought you do random stuff until dance and then spam as many shadowstrikes and technique and maybe gorefiend or something? I thought that's where the dmg coems from?
And how is the aoe blind used? with what purpose?

[outer sky]

The only difference in the rotation between when youre in dance and when you're not is during dance you build combo points with shadowstrike instead of backstab

You dont have to play Goremaw's but if you do then you just use it on CD as a combo point builder

[ocean thunder]

Yeah but usually winning is about CCing the healer and bursting someone, so it does not matter if you backstab much out of CDs - unless another team mate is bursting or anything
So i woud be more interested in the dance rotation - the burst one

[outer sky]

I told you the rotation

They dumbed it down a lot at pre patch

Dance>build combo points with shadowstrike, spend them on eviscerates unless secret tech is off CD then spend on that

Thats it

[ocean thunder]

I guess i have to try it myself, thanks anyway

And what about the blind? what a good use scenario?

[outer sky]

Lots of them. You can kidney>blind>sap the healer every single kidney if you want to. You can use it on CD to keep high Blackjack uptime on the healer, you can use it on the enemy dps during their go to get blackjack on them for it, or you can use it as a pseudo-interrupt

[gusty hedge]

bruh saying thanks anyway, like u didnt just help him with what he asked for

[outer sky]

Its a thankless job but someone's gotta do it

[dark moon]

Has anyone tested if its worth to use different builders/spenders to proc the lashe macarbe talent?

Meaning backstab in dance once, fok and black powder

[outer sky]

No none of that is worth it

Black powder hits like a wet noodle

And for all the other ones

They only generate 1 combo point

Instead of 2

You can use goremaws for that if you want

But thats really it

[dark moon]

I see, oh well

[dark moon]

We should delete discord kekw

[stoic spruce]

Damn your pfp

[jolly sierra]

guys i know is not the thread but i talk with you mostly anyways

but tell me how tf tbc anniversary is so fkn slow in leveling?

dude i stopped questing and just killed shit to auction their clothes lol

nonstop

[stoic spruce]

That's a feature

[jolly sierra]

gotta do a genocide in mobs area then

sorry not sorry npc

[stoic spruce]

We never are

[jolly sierra]

fine

[subtle warren]

Is this a good template to follow in the beginning? kidney on healer on cd during mini go with dance, and kid->blind->sap on healer when it's up? I know in ideal world this is all very fluid but I'm brand new to rogue and trying to reduce some of the variables while learning to press my buttons

[outer sky]

If youre trying to do the kidney>blind>sap thing on the healer youre basically not doing damage during that CC chain because you wont have time in between when you need to do the next CC of that chain

[exotic dove]

Did some more beta and it looks like I am a Sub only boy on expansion release. Assa is imo still not on the level to even think of playing/enjoying it compared to Sub. It has the same problems it has had before only slightly less with small damage buffs it received.

[subtle warren]

So it is better to just keep them separate? Use the blind during blades go and pump as much as possible?

I do feel like I often lose a lot of uptime trying to line up cc

[outer sky]

Its situational. If your teammate has damage and you can afford to take yourself out of the game to CC then go for it

[wise sequoia]

Not quite ... mastery is differently calculated for every spec in the game, whereas the other stats are the same for every spec. For example:
Lets say that to get 1% you need 46 crit, 44 haste or 51 verse (current beta values).
Then 30 x 46 crit will give you 30% crit chance.
An additional 10 x 46 will only give you 9% more crit chance (10% diminished).
An additional 10 x 46 will only give you 8% more crit chance (20% diminished).
And so on ...
So 50 x 46 crit would net you only 30+9+8 = 47% increased crit chance. Same for every spec in the game.

Mastery has a similar pattern, but is not as straightforward.
Resto druids for example might need 80 mastery for a 1% increase, which might then diminish like:
15 x 80 -> 15% increased mastery.
An additional 5 x 80 will only give you 4.5% more mastery (10% diminished).
An additional 5 x 80 will only give you 4% more mastery (20% diminished).
And so on ...
So 25 x 80 mastery would net resto druids only 15+4.5+4 = 23.5% increased mastery.

This does mean that stats usually starts diminishing at approximately the same total value.

On beta the 30% threshold for vers, crit and haste is 1530, 1380 and 1320 respectively - so I would guess the mastery threshold is near those values.
Since Sub rogue mastery is about 18.77 mastery for 1% on beta, the diminishing returns should start somewhere around 1450 mastery, or 77% increased finisher damage.

But since stats are so low in season 1 gear, I havent been able to verify the exact value. If you craft every piece for mastery you might get close to that value.

[rare pine]

have you guys had issues with shadowstrike not applying deathmarks in bgs or arenas?

[outer sky]

Yes its a known bug

[gusty hedge]

yes gettting 4hr 30 min or more per lvl is headbashing

[jolly sierra]

yeye i got it in like 1h or so

i quitted questing

that is a clickbait

[gusty hedge]

😂 it really is! and lvling as rogue makes it that much slower, seeing mages aoe farm mobs and other just dung spamming lvls

[jolly sierra]

fkn mages

LF SM armory mage only /w me

(i am a paladin)

[outer sky]

Im honestly just shocked people are still hype for TBC even though this is the FOURTH time they've released it

[jolly sierra]

its the second one

after classic

[outer sky]

Its definitely not the 2nd one

There was OG back in 2007

The one from like 2019/2020 I think

Then some other one

Then this one

[gusty hedge]

got guide going up now tho so should be easier + pvp weaps at 60 still going strong

[jolly sierra]

original
classic
anniversary

is third one tho

[outer sky]

Right now we've got retail, mop, tbc, sod, hardcore, and i know im missing one. Plus remix. Theres literally 6-7 different versions of the game active right now. No fucking wonder all the endgame content feels dead af. The entire WoW player base is split 6+ ways and that's BEFORE they decide which end game to focus on. Its also taking way too much of blizzards attention to manage all this bloat. They need to keep retail and a classic server and shut the rest of this down. Sorry not sorry

[jolly sierra]

i am buying shit every 5 levels

gotta buy a purple wep asap

[jolly sierra]

ye, they are getting money everywhere

in exchange for QoL

[gusty hedge]

WAITING on Retail Mega PvP server

[spring bough]

PvP? Blizz said what’s that

[shy vortex]

13% dmg increase for assa is HUGE

[lime oar]

oh damn, on pre patch tho?

why lmao

[subtle warren]

There’s also era - which they should keep because it’s 0 maintenance and people love 60

Era + 1 rotating classic + retail should be all

Yeet the rest

Everything is a ghost town and tbc will be too in 2 months

[outer sky]

I think classic mains are borderline schizophrenic. Like, who demands the re-release of an older version of a game that they supposedly loved only to then require it to be updated, patched, and rebalanced

[subtle warren]

When you say classic mains

You mean 60s?

I still log 60s for the warsong gulch but I don’t think anyone has asked for changes in a long time

I think playing tbc is much crazier

Era is cozy never changes etc etc

[outer sky]

I mean anyone maining thr classic version of a prior xpac

[subtle warren]

Oh yeah

Agreed

But everyone’s brains are different I guess

[outer sky]

A friend of mine was streaming TBC for me the other day because I was having trouble falling asleep. And the rogue in the group kept shit talking retail.

This was his overall damage breakdown

Half his damage is auto attacks

[subtle warren]

Yaa I’ve played tbc arena it’s so boring it’s insane

[outer sky]

Another 22% is 1 button, sinister strike

[subtle warren]

It’s barely PvP it’s just executing some game script over and over

[outer sky]

This was from a dungeon

[subtle warren]

35 minute long hunter Druid Vs warrior Druid pressing only viper sting

Ah still

It’s just fried

[outer sky]

Like is this guy really so inept that if he needs more than 1 button to do 75% of his effective damage then its a bad game?

[sharp sierra]

Biggest cry babies on the planet

[subtle warren]

I will say for a little while I could see where they were coming from - it seemed like the ability bloat got out of control after a while

But I really like how the game feels right now

Idk exactly which xpacs it was but the classes def lost some identity for a bit there

[outer sky]

I think they prefer classic because its harder to be bad at it. If you make a mistake in your rotation it doesnt really matter. You'll still do 90+% of the damage you'd do if you did everything perfectly

[sharp sierra]

I don’t mind people that enjoy classic it’s just majority of them complain all day long about the smallest things

Where the hardest raid mechanic is moving left

MYABE they have to move right

But that’s like top 1%

[outer sky]

Yeah but think, they have to have both move left AND move right keybound

Thats a lot of buttons

[sharp sierra]

Nostalgia wise it’s a great concept and I’m happy that group of people get to enjoy it

Asking for constant maintenance and fixes/changes is stupid. Retail can’t even function as is lmao

[subtle warren]

Ya dc on stuns while jumping is insane

Thats literally been fixed since vanilla

[outer sky]

At least its a sure thing now unlike the mind control DC which is basically a 50/50 chance

[subtle warren]

Ya gotta start using it to our advantage

Whenever you’re kill target just jump off something and kidney whoever follows

[outer sky]

I do

If i see a hunter disengage I step>CC him every time

[subtle warren]

Does that work?

[outer sky]

Ye

[subtle warren]

I need to watch out for that

[outer sky]

It has for me

[subtle warren]

If you ain’t cheating you ain’t trying

[outer sky]

I prefer to think of it as community service. The more people it happens to more frequently the louder the player base will be to bug blizzard to fix it

Or heres an idea, the multi billion dollar company could just not recreate a 20 year old problem with Y axes

[subtle warren]

Yaa I can’t imagine how they did that to themselves

I actually was just working on this issue on a vmangos (60 private server core) fork of mine

And even that only has the issue when people are using proxies to connect 1.14 clients with the 1.12 server

It’s actually insane Blizz reintroduced it

Should I let them know it’s the anti cheat?

[sharp sierra]

how do the private servers work? Is it just hosting your own client off a fork somewhere or is it handeled by blizzard itself

[subtle warren]

Nope 0 % blizzard. Over the years people have reverse engineered the server core by sniffing client traffic. So most private servers will at least start on the same server core, it handles all of the ability, movement etc interactions and stuff

And then they’ll add like gameplay stuff on top of that, aka new npcs or abilities or events and stuff

[outer sky]

They still use blizzards IP dont they?

[subtle warren]

Nope

[outer sky]

Damn really

[sharp sierra]

They can be CnD'd no?

[subtle warren]

I made a bunch of combat related fixes and we have a permanent warsong gulch server now

[outer sky]

Blizzard has nuked em before

[subtle warren]

Insta 60 free consumes etc etc

[outer sky]

There was a big one they nuked

Started with an N

[subtle warren]

Yeah they’ll only do that if you’re really big and charging money

[sharp sierra]

Ahhhh

[outer sky]

Can't remember the full name

[subtle warren]

Nostalrius

[outer sky]

Yes that one

[subtle warren]

A few others got it too. But again they were charging people for stuff

[sharp sierra]

I imagine they arent cloning warden so id be more worried about attacks or regular injection/ring0 cheats

although thats not really hard to defend against with simple checks

[subtle warren]

The actuallt do have it

And a fairly comprehensive anti cheat

I’ve been all up in the server code

Still if you want to cheat in any meaningful way you need to modify the client which is extremely difficult

[sharp sierra]

i mean they have done a great job at shutting down almost all LUA unlockers and since thye dont have to worry about DMA or most hypervisor stuff i imagine the only real thing they suffer with is 2pc AI stuff and thats mostly junk code anyways

[subtle warren]

Being a packed binary and all

[sharp sierra]

yeah well its also good that warden has really had 10+ years to focus on only two types of exploits people can use. Besides the ai stuff which again is mostly junk anyways

which is also funny because wows lighting issues screws those over which is super hilarious to me

[potent pivot]

It might be yes, especially for backstab

[potent pivot]

It might be actually ye

[outer sky]

I mean i tried it and it felt worse. Macabre doesn't seem to be doing enough damage to make up for the difference in damage between strike and stab and theres also the half combo point generation thing too

But like if people want to do it because they think it adds complexity that they crave then thats fine

[potent pivot]

Im not talking about prepatch

Talking about beta/season

The combo points isn’t that big of an issue on sub it just depends on where the global falls rly

[potent pivot]

You gotta stop acting like an ass in here bro

[outer sky]

Im not being an ass. I know sub lost a lot of buttons so a lot of people are are going to try and think of clever ways to press more stuff so it feels more engaging

It just is what it is

[potent pivot]

If you’ve already applied it to someone you can no longer move it to other targets, that part isn’t a bug.

You have to use your Darkest Night to move it now

The “bug/bad interaction” is that if someone clears your Mark, you can’t reapply it

[molten hedge]

I heard Nahj say they did that bc in PvE they’re too dumb to not swap their mark on accident lol idk if I believe that though

But maybe 🤷‍♂️

[outer sky]

I would 100% believe that. And if its true it means DS is a dead tree for us

[potent pivot]

Sometimes in PvE you HAVE to swap targets, that’s why

But it's also a problem for certain pve encounters/situations

Like wiping in m+, raid boss going immune/phasing to a different boss

Legit only thing they'd have to do to fix it is make the mark a buff on the rogue

Too stubborn

[outer sky]

But that would ruin the theme. You "mark your target". And obviously the theme is more important than the actual gameplay

[potent pivot]

I hear hunters aren't happy about their hunter's mark shit as well

[sharp sierra]

https://worldofwarcraft.blizzard.com/en-us/news/24246298/second-midnight-pre-expansion-update-notes

wait arent these on beta already?

[potent pivot]

think so ye

[sharp sierra]

yeah it is

i was scrolling and got excited lmao

[potent pivot]

this is just them bringing those changes to the new prepatch patch tmrw

[sharp sierra]

im noticing the stats in beta are extremely low

[potent pivot]

get ready for all the fotm sub rollers to be in here dooming

[potent pivot]

the secondary stats?

[sharp sierra]

yeah

[potent pivot]

ye because beta is level 90

or max lvl w/e

the scaling in prepatch is giga fucked up

[sharp sierra]

ah so stats are expected to be lower or is it just till live

[potent pivot]

because we are in a new expansion and not max level technically

[potent pivot]

they are expected to be way lower lol yes

this is the only reason ppl are still stacking mastery on prepatch

[sharp sierra]

Ah okay cause in beta im trying to hit the 25% haste for outlaw and its kinda hard without lowering crit massivly

[potent pivot]

because they can have max mast and sub hasn't gotten the tuning yet

[severe helm]

yeah thats just how it is

s1 haste target will be quite hard to hit

[sharp sierra]

damn

[severe helm]

itll take a bit to get there

[sharp sierra]

seems vers is even lower too with teir

[severe helm]

vers is our 3rd best stat as outlaw now though

so

its haste >= crit > vers > mast

[sharp sierra]

damn okay

so just try to line up haste/crit to be as equal/high as possible then vers

looks like 20% is the sweet spot currently

although i end up with 18%-20% verse with tier

idk ill try some crafts

[severe helm]

~22% is what you need to get the max gcd benefit from adr

good chance that in pvp we forego crit to get vers since outlaw is going to be pretty squishy in midnight

in pve theres some "no bte" talent builds that are actually quite competitive so I can imagine that in pvp with the crit nerf that we actually might play some of those builds

since bte damage is so nerfed

[potent pivot]

sub is gonna be very similar stats to outlaw then

[severe helm]

good for the outlaws so they can try it out, realize how shit it is, then swap to sub

truuuu

they made grapple slow 🙁

[outer sky]

It feels so bad

[sharp bough]

how much vers olaw is running in pvp?

[fathom moss]

Prepatch, I’ll send screenshot later

[vale steppe]

Am i the only one that love daggers lol, ive not mogged to swords..

guess i just like to flex Soul eater 🤷

idd

[wise sequoia]

Soo ... I think I did the math right ... and the optimal PvP rotation for trickster sub in midnight outside of stealth/shadow dance is as follows:

backstab <-> backstab

Literally nothing else! Clicking eviscerate results in a loss of shadow techniques points ... which do about 4-10 times more damage during shadow dance. Better to just overcap combo points, instead of spending them and losing damage during the burst window. For reference, saving the shadow techniques points allows us to copy Secret Technique/Coup de Grace at 70% effectiveness or as much as 50-70k (no crit) for 5-6 shadow techniques points.
Meanwhile, every combo point wasted by overcapping outside of shadow dance is a damage loss of around 1-2k.

Also ... auto attack damage is so high, that it does as much damage as a backstab every single second - backstab is mainly used to proc unseen blade and maintain flawless form.

Thoughts?

[potent pivot]

There’s more to it than just evis damage

[spring bough]

Bro is doing Nobel prize winning computations daily 🔥

[wise sequoia]

?
I'm very interested in hearing your argument 🙂

[spring bough]

Trickz present the rival computation for the Nobel prize

[potent pivot]

i can guarantee we won't be spamming backstab only

[potent pivot]

only pressing backstab outside of dance is a ridiculously dumbed down way to approach the proper play^

[spring bough]

I don’t see the math

[wise sequoia]

The proper play is to ensure that you have at least 10 shadow techniques points saved up for every shadow dance so you can copy both supercharged coup de grace and supercharged secret technique. If you start with the full 14 and play shadowcraft, its even possible to copy all 3 finishers in the shadow dance window.

It might well be possible to reliably build enough points for every shadow dance while using eviscerate outside sd in PvE ... but I'm struggeling to stick to my target in between shadow dances. And every shadow techniques point you end up being short for the dance is a 5-10k damage loss. Every combo point you overcap instead of eniscerate is a 1-2k damage loss.

In PvE ... absolutely, eviscerate away if you got good uptime!

[potent pivot]

not wasting my time

[potent pivot]

you also realize UB has a CD right

[outer sky]

Imagine how much better off the world would be if Einstein used his intellect for things like this rather than to build weapons of mass destruction

[wise sequoia]

Yeah of course! Thats why we cast backstab to maintain flawless form and proc unseen blade.

Meanwhile eviscerate provides no procs. No buffs. Only a little bit of insignificant unbuffed damage. Calculating the damage loss for overcapping a combo point is super straightforward - its simply 1/7th of the unbuffed eviscerate. Nothing else is lost.

It further gives the opportunity to do a full kidney at any point.

Meanwhile 5-6 shadow techniques points are worth 70% of your buffed up coup de grace/secret technique.

Its only worth it to eviscerate outside stealth if you can do that AND have 10-14 shadow technique points saved up for every dance.

[potent pivot]

[spring bough]

Bro break out the calculations

[wise sequoia]

*"*I just press button :)*"

[ocean thunder]

Curious, is assa equally bad with these changes? I am trying to convince myself it will get better until release while at the same time i am grooming sub..

[potent pivot]

i cba its too dumb

[potent pivot]

it won't feel as bad after launch

[spring bough]

I just smash 1,2,3 and hit CDs and do dam

[outer sky]

13% damage buff hits tomorrow thats going to feel a lot better. But I still think that unless they reduce the gap between sub and assa/outlaw CC then we'll just be playing sub unless one of the others has ass busted damage

[wise sequoia]

Use this eviscerate macro for guaranteed R1!

#showtooltip R1 Trohpy
/cancelaura [nostance] ancient arts
/use [nostance] eviscerate

[spring bough]

Hell yeah brother

[potent pivot]

its effectively like saying: "in order to combat me playing poorly, i will play worse"

literally

[ocean thunder]

From my brief test / comparison assa had similar-ish burst damage on 1min CD vs 24s of subtlety

[outer sky]

And sub can stun people

[stoic spruce]

plays rogue

[ocean thunder]

Frankly, i could live without the extra stun as i lived as assa all this time.
But combining it with less dmg too and less pressure.
For example focusing on envenom and dumping assa execute mechanic because it can't fit the talents feels aweful. The execute was pretty huge to land kills

[stoic spruce]

Trickz probably will play sub

[severe helm]

I mean sometimes this works

you ever just not press kick

and just hold it

[potent pivot]

[severe helm]

im not kidding

its actually giga tech

well at high rating

[sharp sierra]

im assuming we will use 4 peice on outlaw in midnight

still cant get 22% haste

OH IM DUMB

RINGS

[severe helm]

yeah those are big

[sharp sierra]

hmm haste + crit or haste + vers

[potent pivot]

would prolly just go for haste/vers

[sharp sierra]

closer

maybe gems will save the vers

[potent pivot]

yea that vers looks rough

[sharp sierra]

yeah i really cant think of anything else to change for more vers unless gems save it

[outer sky]

How good the execute is directly correlates with how hard bleeds are hitting. Because to proc the execute you need a certain amount of total bleed damage on the target relative to their remaining hp under 10%. Right now bleeds are doing such piss damage that not taking the execute talent really isnt such a big deal because it would never proc until the target was at like 2% hp anyway.

[ocean thunder]

Oh yeah i dont disagree, when i realized how little dmg garrote is doing i was shocked.
But my problem is the fact that the talent is not worth picking - plus the envenom design. If i wanted big envenoms i would go sub...errhm well i dont know, i wanted a bleed spec

[outer sky]

The biggest issue by far is the gap in the CC kit, as ive said many times before. That alone basically forces sub to be the default pvp spec because its the only spec thats not a leather warrior. They really need to do something about that. Like right now its either:

1. Play sub 100% of the time in every comp

Or

2. Assa or outlaw are massively overtuned which would justify playing them but would also probably warrant a nerf if they're doing so much damage that its worth losing THAT MUCH CC to get that damage

[ocean thunder]

What was that different in that aspect with TWW?

[outer sky]

Every rogue spec could spam cheap shot for like 12s after getting into stealth

Now sub has the most CC its ever had and assa and outlaw have a single storm bolt tied to a 2m CD (vanish)

Its night and day

[stoic spruce]

Sub is the only spec that somewhat keeps their rogue toolkit

[wise sequoia]

To be clear, I just tested a couple things on my rogue - and since I'm new to the class I came here looking for feedback.
Some of the results led me to the following 3 claims:

1. Overcapping combo points (or shadow techniques) outside dance leads to a loss of damage since we are usually no global starved, and eviscerate refunds its entire energy cost. The lost damage is simply the amount of damage those combo points could have dealt, if spent on eviscerate: 1200ish damage on my rogue.

2. Starting dance with 5, 10 or 14 shadow techniques points allows me to copy my powerfull supercharged finishers during shadow dance. This can be as much as 70k or as little as 20k for each copied finisher on my rogue - but approximately 5-10k damage per missing shadow techniques point.

3. Since the combo points during shadow dance are so much more valuable than those same combo points outside dance (5-10k vs. 1.2k), its seems reasonable to be very cautious about spending any points outside stealth.

I'm not looking for calculations ... just arguments against the above claims.

[ocean thunder]

The issue i saw was that in a Kidney as assa i couldnt do meaningful dmg, i wanted 1-2 more GCDs to build up CPs for the 2nd (and meaningful) envenom.

[wise sequoia]

This is all just for fun though ... I'm just messing around with some numbers while putting the kids to bed (and getting them water and giving hugs and tugging in teddies)

[outer sky]

That'll feel a bit better tomorrow

[ocean thunder]

I think it will only feel better with apex talents, when KB gives you 5cp

It's clear the whole build is 2 envenoms the second being busted

with KB ofc

[outer sky]

You sure you're not an evoker main trying to dupe us all into just spamming backstab all next season? Lol

[sharp sierra]

okay even with 3 vers/haste gems this is the max vers i can get, unless we just end up not using 4 piece idk how else to get any higher

[outer sky]

Engi

[wise sequoia]

ex-resto druid main tired of feast-and-famine seasons 😛
Trying to diversify in case resto sucks again in Midnight! (So far I'm BM hunter, sub rogue and possibly any S tier healer besides disc)

I'm embracing the fotm!

[outer sky]

On beta resto druids have a 1 shot

[sharp sierra]

what does engi give? sorry ive never once done professions lmao this is literally my first time using them

the helmet thing?

[outer sky]

You can craft head and wrist pieces that give you 2x of 1 stat instead of 1x of 2 stats

[wise sequoia]

In rated PvP the only benefit of professions is:
Engineering allows you to craft bracer/helm with only 1 secondary stat. So if you want to REALLY lean into say ... mastery, then those 2 pieces gives much more mastery 😛

Like Zicore said

[sharp sierra]

okay let me try because losing bracers doesnt even affect the haste %

cant do helm because of tier

[wise sequoia]

btw - you just need engi level 1

so no need to level it

[sharp sierra]

beta lets you max it anyways

but i see what youre saying

[outer sky]

You dont even need that for the bracers

Only the head

[gusty hedge]

what are ur stats in pvp combat tho

[gusty hedge]

😭

[sharp sierra]

[gusty hedge]

low vers is gonna get us killed

[stoic spruce]

You maybe

[sharp sierra]

the engi peice is only a 10 point difference

so idkj

thats with 3 vers gems as well

trickster tank it is

[gusty hedge]

nah im haste vers all the way kiddo

[sharp sierra]

i mean this is with 4 piece + gems so does this mean season 1 is going to be a nightmare

[stoic spruce]

Nuh uh I'm more haste vers than you!

[gusty hedge]

https://tenor.com/view/omg-oh-my-gosh-oh-my-god-omfg-wow-gif-4172052

[sharp sierra]

even with 20% crit

i got 0 bte procs unless grave digger was up lmao

i mean at this point im willing to drop super charger just to have the healing and double vanish 😭

this will be the expac i get 2400 for the first time ever and ill do it with outlaw

!remindme 2 years

[outer sky]

Are you sure the better advice isnt "pool shadow techniques procs before your go" rather than "never press anything besides backstab outside of dance"?

[sharp sierra]

another stupid thing is that gravedigger doesnt let you go above 10 stacks so even if you wanted to save it to spend for 100% bte procs max you can do is one reset

very cool!

[outer sky]

Is outlaw still running people over with tumbleweeds?

[stoic spruce]

Yeah

Tbh i very rarely notice them

[sharp sierra]

its cute

[stoic spruce]

There's always too much shit going on for me to notice lol

[sharp sierra]

tumble weed should function like legsweep and trip them

outlaw saved

[outer sky]

That is the most cringe design

Like imagine youre fighting a raid boss

Like an Old God

And he just gets defeated by a tumbleweed

[stoic spruce]

Funny part is

[sharp sierra]

there is no old gods

The real final boss is now going to be a landlord

[stoic spruce]

That's not even the most embarrassing wow death

[outer sky]

Nah HOA

[sharp sierra]

LMAOOOOOO

finally a common enemy

[stoic spruce]

https://tenor.com/view/violation-warning-violated-a-rule-wassie-contravention-gif-27019028

[potent pivot]

#pvp message

ye

[sharp sierra]

Wow devs when rogue kills 3 mobs without dying

i picked a perfect time to main outlaw

:D

[stoic spruce]

Actually

You know what's funny?

Picking up Outlaw in prepatch/midnight is a better idea than TWW

Because we can only go up from here

[outer sky]

Idk if those last rounds of nerfs dont do the trick they may just give outlaw the rez sickness debuff

[stoic spruce]

Well I mean in terms of design. Obv tuning is a whole other beast and DMG isn't usually Outlaws thing so who knows what's gonna happen

[potent pivot]

And fwiw, the same is true for energy/combo points

It should be pretty easy to play it properly

[outer sky]

Well it's "thing" definitely ain't CC either so if its not damage and its not CC then what is it? Sure as hell ain't mobility anymore with that rusted up hook we've got. Is it survivability? Probably not but even if so we're just squishy tank specs with less healing lol

[sharp sierra]

i did try it around season 2 of tww and each win felt like a glorius battle of brain power

that was maybe 2 wins out of 50 lmao always played sub/sin/ alt a holic every week so this expac im only playing one dps spec and forcing myself to break out of 2000.

[outer sky]

Ive found energy to be a complete non issue during dance if you play shadowcraft. And I dont play tea or vigor. I cant remember even once not being able to press on global.

[stoic spruce]

Wish they didn't wait until heroic week to start tuning

I hope the lack of tuning in S3 was just them working on midnight lol

And not become a pattern

[outer sky]

Nah bro by FAR the biggest 🖕🏼 they give us is delaying tuning waiting for a small group of try hards to finish competing in a tournament nobody even cares about. That drives me absolutely insane. And that tournament gappens like 12x per year or some shit like its ALWAYS going on. Like fuck those guys just fix the game we're all paying for ffs

[stoic spruce]

Real

[sharp sierra]

All the devs are currently working on more kirko skins please be patient

[stoic spruce]

Idk what that means

[sharp sierra]

lmao its their bread winner in overwatch

[potent pivot]

awc hasn't even stopped tuning in recent years has it

[vocal surge]

Overwatch? What's that?

[sharp sierra]

THE GOAT

[stoic spruce]

But I like how .1% player unfriendly midnight is

[outer sky]

It delayed ret tuning early last season

[potent pivot]

they've done tuning mid awc multiple times and comp players had to make all new comps

[sharp sierra]

massive OW update tomorrow as well

i actually wonder if its seperate teams

or just coders swapped around

[outer sky]

Which is unnecessary. If they really want to avoid that, just tune the live servers and leave the tourney realms as they were until whatever it is they're doing is over

Idk why they dont do that actually

Maybe makes too much sense

[stoic spruce]

They should add a ban feature to Tourny realms tbh. I'd watch AWC if they had that

[sharp sierra]

does everyone just play alliance man this is sad lol

[outer sky]

One thing that actually really pissed me off probably more so than anything in this dumb game ever should is how people were complaining about the Ruins of Lorderon map being bugged with people falling through the middle tombstone for MONTHS and they did nothing about it and then during AWC that happened to Kalvish and literally next reset they took that map out of the rotation and fixed it

So like if our gameplay is suffering

Thats fine

No big deal

But if its Kalvish

Thats an emergency

As if the money hes paying his sub with is worth more than ours

[potent pivot]

as it should be

🫡

[stoic spruce]

https://tenor.com/view/bait-thats-bait-tom-hardy-mad-max-gif-5055384

[outer sky]

I know

[stoic spruce]

Almost got me tho

[potent pivot]

kinda funny tho like

thinking its because of it happening to the player

instead of they just saw it in their faces during a comp

so they fixed it

[stoic spruce]

People have been talking about it forever though

[sharp sierra]

Balancing around streamers is best method in any game 👍

[stoic spruce]

It's been happening for years and the one time it happens in AWC it gets fixed.

[outer sky]

Even if it was some nobody in AWC

And not Kalvish

We shouldn't all just have to deal with critical gameplay bugs until one day it happens in a tournament

[spring bough]

Shows how much blizz listens to us about PvP lol

[outer sky]

For it to get fixed

[stoic spruce]

It's really not even up for debate

[sharp sierra]

okay 23% is the highest haste i can get unless i drop 4 set

with 2 set i can hit 25%

[outer sky]

In fact if they listened to the "nobodies" when they should have, it wouldn't have happened in AWC

[sharp sierra]

actually maybe we dont even run 4 set

because its only 5% damage bonus before pvp nerf

[potent pivot]

are we really expecting anything to change though

[outer sky]

So 2.5% in pvp

[potent pivot]

or are we just gonna continue bitching about the company in discord forever

[sharp sierra]

yeah which is worthless no? cause FB already has a bunch of modifiers

[potent pivot]

[stoic spruce]

Idle hands do the devils work

[sharp sierra]

oh wait i forgot to put dagger in offhand

thats even less haste

alright im done im going back to prepatch

[vocal surge]

wanna 1v1 in Beta?

[sharp sierra]

i just got off to play ow

and you would roll me

[vocal surge]

F

[stoic spruce]

You're the only person I know that likes dueling a rogue as a rogue lol

[vocal surge]

xD Yeeee

[stoic spruce]

I know when we duel I'm thinking "oh my God FINE I'll unstealth" lmaoo

And naturally that puts me at a disadvantage

[vocal surge]

lol

[proven field]

im dumb, why is my thistle tea automatically hitting CD?

[vocal surge]

You're going over* the speed limit

[stoic spruce]

I wonder how many people are hitting BR when they're empty rather than half energy and that's why they're starved

[vocal surge]

prob a lot

[stoic spruce]

I'd be pretty dry too if I used BR at 0 energy lol

Kids these days

[vocal surge]

But ye, if you wanna fight on Beta

I'd be down to put myself at a disadvantage

[outer sky]

Read the tool tip lol

If you drop below 30 energy it force procs it

[proven field]

oh it doesnt read liek that, it reads like an old-timey newspaper ad

why not just make it a passive then

[vocal surge]

Ngl, this garlic water slaps

[outer sky]

In most cases it acts like one but I can imagine times as assa in particular when you may want to do a go NOW but youre a bit low on energy so you'd just press tea and go

Tea definitely shouldn't be a capstone talent though

It was worthy of being one last season but not now

[potent pivot]

most of the value was in the energy already

[outer sky]

I dont think i ever had mine proc passively last season

I just pressed it with shiv

And kingsbane

And I played 0 haste

[proven field]

im outlaw so I just mash buttons like a mongo pirate and wonder where my charges went

i also feel like trickster and fatebound do almost the exact same damage most fights... I swap.. still same burst.. same sustain...maybe im missing somethin

[sharp sierra]

trickster feels more tanky

[outer sky]

And that even shorter blind

[sharp sierra]

true

[wise sequoia]

Maybe at higher haste values ... but my 289 rogue on beta has 1.95 hits per second which translates into an average of 0.56 shadow techniques points per second.

Best case you leave shadow dance with a perfect 14 ST points in the bank (very unlikely) and casts an eviscerate right away, which takes you down to 7-8 ST points depending on if you used ancient art.

That deals maybe 20k damage. Then you need to spend an average of 12.5 seconds auto-attacking to regain those points before the next shadow dance which is ... 13 seconds away.
In PvE? Sure, easy enough!

But if you get kited of feared you are now gonna have to start next Shadow dance with 10 ST points, which will lose you at least 20k damage.

And if you use another eviscerate (or left previous dance at <10 ST points) then you are looking at starting with <5 ST points which is a loss of over 100k damage.

I'm obviously no expert, but the way it is currently set up on the beta, using even a single eviscerate outside shadow dance in PvP will make it near impossible to start next dance with full ST points.

Try it out! I haven't been able to at least.

[dark moon]

Yeah, fuck those 1 team rosters, kek

[stoic spruce]

Hell yeah

[dark moon]

That doesn't work in m+, let alone arena

[stoic spruce]

Teams get ready, oops arcane is banned

M+ is a totally different thing that doesn't require counter comps

I'd watch rwc with bans too

[dark moon]

There were bans in m+

[stoic spruce]

That's dumb, bans in pve don't make sense

[dark moon]

Ended up people playing alt comps for early stages

[outer sky]

So you're saying you may have to delay your next dance? Thats probably fine though. DRs dont reset for 16s after the CC ends. So if you double cheap thats 22 seconds from the global you stun to when you can stun again. And thats assuming your teammate can get the cross CC in that short a time. You wont have kidney for 30s if you used that, either

[dark moon]

They make less sense in pvp when you don't have 1374816362 classes like league of legends

[stoic spruce]

I'd argue it makes more sense when you dont have that many

[wise sequoia]

That is a very good point. I'm assuming full on sending secret technique on cooldown for max frequency burst. But if you want to time secret technique with you teams burst, and they are only able to go every 30 seconds, you will absolutely have extra time for building points back up. Especially since you will have extra shadow dances which generate points like crazy if you run shadowcraft.

But if your goal is to go exactly every 20s, then it gets very tight to spend ST points and build them back up 😛

[outer sky]

It would be 22s if you double stun. The 16s DR reset clock wont start ticking until after your 2nd stun. So 4s cheap>2s cheap>16s reset=22s

[potent pivot]

i think you're overthinking this whole shadow tech thing too much ngl

[wise sequoia]

I CAME TO THIS CLASS LOOKING FOR BURST!

[potent pivot]

i also don't think there's a world in which backstab spam would be the play - even if it was, blizzard would buff evis

[wise sequoia]

Yeah ... have certainly had the thought. Found similar "edge cases" when playing rdruid, and they usually get fixed.

[outer sky]

Bro whenever we have burst it gets nerfed into the ground with an emergency mid week hotfix but people still just keep bitching about it online for the remainder of the season so everyone who doesnt play rogue thinks we always have this huge burst damage

[dark moon]

How does it make sense? The op classes will always be banned in most cases the best healer or op dps. You'll never see whaazz playing rmp if its good or lontar playing resto shaman etc

[stoic spruce]

That's the point

That's why it exists in the first place

[dark moon]

Nobody would practice anything for awc let alone participate

[stoic spruce]

That's a massive exaggeration

[dark moon]

When the game is countercomping bans don't make sense

[wise sequoia]

I will say that everyone here missed the hidden gem: Complaining about how pruning killed sub!

Think about it: If you just embrace that casting Eviscerate outside stealth is at best a wash, and most likely a loss of damage, then rogue could simplify to:

Button 1 (builder):
/use [stance] Shadowstrike
/use Backstab

Button 2(Burst):
/use shadowdance
/use shadow blades
/use Coup de Grace
/castsequence reset=5 Secret technique, eviscerate, eviscerate, eviscerate, eviscerate, eviscerate, eviscerate, eviscerate

BAM! 2 button spec completed! Its even peak efficiency!

So close to pure greatness ❤️

[potent pivot]

do not make me smite thee

that builder macro is also just bad

btw

[dark moon]

I wouldn't bind blades to dance tho

[wise sequoia]

Had to cut some corners to avoid using modifiers 😛

[potent pivot]

wut

you can literally put them on the same button

[stoic spruce]

Specs, not classes

Rmp will still win for the 100th time

[outer sky]

Blades and dance?

[wise sequoia]

But a button with modifiers feels like 2 buttons to me ...

These 2 buttons require nothing! Just A-A-A-A-A-A outisde stealth and B-A-B-A-B-A-B-A for burst.

I thinks its kind funny how good this rotation actually is ^^

[potent pivot]

??

[dark moon]

Yeah but it would affect othe comps that much more

[wise sequoia]

Sleep tight everyone - see you tomorrow 😉

[outer sky]

You said "you can literally put them on the same button" after Alt said "I wouldn't bind blades to dance tho"

It looked like you were saying you could put blades and dance on the same button

[potent pivot]

not quite

[dark moon]

I don't think he was replying to me

Or

[outer sky]

Its probably fine to macro dance to blades but I wouldnt macro blades to dance. And ofc you'd need a separate dance keybind so idk if its even worth

[stoic spruce]

One button macro?

SL sub back??

[dark moon]

I mean you can put them on the same bind, yes but I wouldn't

[potent pivot]

how are we even talking about blades/dance man

[dark moon]

Kek

[outer sky]

Ive read it like 10x and I cant think of anything else you'd be referencing lol

[potent pivot]

thats crazy negative levels of reading comprehension !!